18 Children

How can someone kill 18 elementary school children, apparently most of them kindergartners? What kind of sickness is that?

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182 replies
  1. David in NY says:

    Fucking Second Amendment lovers. Just saw Eugene Volokh’s cheery post this week about the Seventh Circuit’s decision invalidating a law against carrying firearms in public. He damned well ought to have to go to 27 funerals.

    These guys, and those who’ve been enabling the gun toters for decades, mostly for political gain, totally have blood on their hands.

  2. serge says:

    Hey, “Guns don’t kill preschoolers, people kill preschoolers!”

    I want to see Wayne LaPierre’s head stuck on a pike.

  3. jibeaux says:

    There were reportedly TWO of them. Of all the fuckwads in the entire universe, those two FOUND each other, and one of them is dead and one at large?? Fucking monsters. I don’t intellectually believe in the death penalty, but I don’t think some unsupervised time with other prisoners would be a bad thing. God willing they catch the guy before he has a chance to off himself.

  4. pseudonymous in nc says:

    The blood is on the hands of the NRA no less than if they pulled the trigger.

    Happy Holidays, you fucks. You got your present early.

  5. The Other Bob says:

    Not more than 12 hours ago, in the dead of the night, Michigan’s legislators passed a bill to allow guns to be carried at sporting events, day care centers and schools.

    I am not kidding. Really.

  6. ArchTeryx says:

    Damn near uniquely American (though Norway certainly proves there’s plenty of exceptions to the rule).

    Land of the free, baby!

  7. Villago Delenda Est says:

    By the NRA’s logic (“arm the kindergartners so they can defend themselves”) these kids were all of “military age”, so I can’t imagine why anyone would have the slightest compunction about preemptively preventing them from knocking over a candy store on their way home after they leave school for the day.

  8. jibeaux says:

    @Violet: They’re now saying they have a second man “connected” to the shootings in custody. Have not read that they are calling him a shooter. WTF?

  9. Felinious Wench says:

    I have 7 year old and 10 year old boys, and my husband is a high school teacher.

    I am physically ill right now.

  10. Villago Delenda Est says:

    @jon:

    You commie. Using obvious correlation to draw a conclusion that impinges on the rights of small-dicked Americans to compensate for their disability.

  11. Triassic Sands says:

    Whatever kind of sickness it is, it is hard to imagine it is not mental illness, severe mental illness, which means normal issues of guilt and responsibility go out the window.

    Then again, there are truly evil people out there.

    Oh, yeah, and then there is our “gun culture.”

  12. Good Doc says:

    David Gregory (NBC) apparently suggests that we need to wait to pass judgement until we get the details on the ‘motives’ of the killers. WTF?

  13. Gregory says:

    Body counts like this are the price American society pays for its gun culture. Okay, fine, but if the no-gun-control-ever crowd is so brave, let’s see them own that fact.

    “You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers…even if you have to bury a dozen kindergartners every now and then, it’s well worth it.”

    Feh.

  14. spudvol says:

    @Good Doc:

    David Gregory (NBC) apparently suggests that we need to wait to pass judgement until we get the details on the ‘motives’ of the killers. WTF?

    Well, the kids might be Obama voters, so let’s wait and see.

  15. dmsilev says:

    Has any of these oh-too-common atrocities *ever* ended with some brave upstanding citizen pulling out his concealed pistol and bringing down the gunman? Just wondering.

  16. chopper says:

    @Good Doc:

    wtf ‘motive’ does dancin’ dave expect here? wtf does that have to do with judging the efficacy of gun legislation or lack thereof?

  17. Paul says:

    @Good Doc:

    David Gregory (NBC) apparently suggests that we need to wait to pass judgement until we get the details on the ‘motives’ of the killers. WTF?

    Idiot!

  18. Violet says:

    @Good Doc:

    David Gregory (NBC) apparently suggests that we need to wait to pass judgement until we get the details on the ‘motives’ of the killers. WTF?

    Yes, because if they have a reasonable enough motive, it will excuse killing 27 people, 18 of them children. Maybe the poor, poor shooters were upset that kids are getting subsidized school lunches, the little moochers. Time to off them and fix that fiscal cliff problem. See…that’s reasonable.

    I’m making myself sick. David Gregory is an awful person.

  19. jibeaux says:

    @dmsilev: Well, there was Bernie Getz and that guy who shot two teenage home invaders on his basement stairs, but…wait. Those guys weren’t armed. Never mind.

  20. Ben Cisco says:

    @Good Doc:

    David Gregory (NBC) apparently suggests that we need to wait to pass judgement until we get the details on the ‘motives’ of the killers. WTF?

    Villago Delenda Est.
    NeoConfederato Delenda Est.

    Lather, rinse, repeat as necessary.

  21. jl says:

    @Snarki, child of Loki:

    ” If only those kindergardeners were armed… ”

    Punchy is already on the case wrt to that angle.

    I reject revile refudiate and renounce you!

    But, we will hear something close enough from some wingnut pol or NRA flack soon, so thanks for preparing us.

    Edit: TPM reports the gunman may have killed or maimed a whole classroom. Horrifying. The wild west was more sensible on gun control, at least in towns. We have regressed, to ghastly and tragic effect, so that industry front groups like the NRA can help their patrons make profits from selling guns and ammo, and for vile opportunistic partisan political purposes, taking advantage of deluded scared white people, mostly.

  22. gypsy howell says:

    David Gregory (NBC) apparently suggests that we need to wait to pass judgement until we get the details on the ‘motives’ of the killers.

    Why, Dave, because we might find out those kids were just asking for it? That this was justified retribution for something or other?

  23. SatanicPanic says:

    This is just so horrible, it’s really hard to think about anything else today. When I became a parent I didn’t think this would be something I would have to worry about.

  24. jibeaux says:

    These cowardly fuckers who always kill random people, or kill their wives/girlfriends/families, and then kill themselves, keep doing it in the WRONG FUCKING ORDER.

  25. Frank says:

    This feels like a tipping point, like our sanity as a nation is on the brink. Our response to this event will determine whether or not we can save ourselves from a future where such insanity becomes a go-to response for a small group of nuts.

  26. James Hare says:

    Gregory is not alone. I’ve got family members who put up “don’t take my guns” posts on Facebook before even stopping to think of the victims or their families.

    My daughter is in a public school right now. I am this close to losing it and driving to take her home.

  27. Felinious Wench says:

    @David in NY:

    NRA’s number:

    1-800-672-3888

    Good man. I just grabbed a phone room at work and am about to dial them up. I’ve got a few things to get off my chest.

  28. RareSanity says:

    _

    Dear Media,

    Please do not seek out ELEMENTARY SCHOOL CHILDREN to recount horrifically traumatic situations they have experienced.

    They are kids you heartless fuckers! Either talk to the administration or teachers of the school, or the police for “details”.

    Thank You,
    Adults that care about the well being of children.

    Dear Parents,

    Do not allow your ELEMENTARY SCHOOL CHILD to do TV interviews, recounting a horrifically traumatic situation they JUST experienced

    These are your children, not media props. Please go to your children and comfort them. Hug them and try to restore some semblance of a feeling of safety in them.

    DO NOT LET YOUR YOUNG CHILDREN DO INTERVIEWS!

    Signed,
    Pissed off parent watching 3rd graders recount a horrific experience.

  29. jp7505a says:

    Dancin David also is concerned that the anti-gun folks demonize the good lawbiding gun owners. Look it makes no sense to demonize every one but every one of these shooters has been, until he pulled the trigger, a ‘good law abiding c
    itizen’. I don’t remember any Mafia types going into a school and killing 18 kids. At least on St. valentines day they were all fellow mobsters.

    Until the law abiding gun owners standup and slap down the NRA and the 2nd amendment absolutist they will bear atleast some responsibility for this. If the good hunters and gun owners in Michigan marched on the legislature and demanded that the gunshow loophole, the lack of background checks, limits on multi-round magazines be passed then maybe something would get done.

  30. JGabriel says:

    __
    __
    dedc79:

    Some winger congressman is gonna propose concealed carry for teachers.

    The Michigan legislature just passed a bill yesterday permitting concealed carry in schools and churches:

    The Michigan House and Senate voted Thursday to allow concealed fire arms for licensed carriers in previously restricted areas, including churches and schools.
    __
    Lawmakers in both the House and Senate approved Senate Bill 59 to allow concealed weapons in several gun-free zones Thursday, as well as doing away with county boards currently overseeing concealed pistol licensing.
    __
    “If you have pistol free zones they are actually mass murderer empowerment zones,” said Steve Dulan, attorney for the Michigan Coalition of Responsible Gun Owners, who represents sportsman clubs throughout Michigan backing the bill. “If you actually look at the history, even over the past 10 years in the U.S., you find that maybe all but one mass shooting has occurred in a so-called gun free zone.”

    .

  31. SatanicPanic says:

    @James Hare:

    My daughter is in a public school right now. I am this close to losing it and driving to take her home.

    I am with you there. Really having a hard time keeping it together today.

  32. RareSanity says:

    @Raven:

    I cannot believe how these media assholes just lose any sense of humanity for the “feeding frenzy” of a breaking news story.

    Assholes…

  33. Paul says:

    @jp7505a:

    Dancin David also is concerned that the anti-gun folks demonize the good lawbiding gun owners.

    Maybe Mr Gregory (I lost any respect I had for him after his event with Karl Rove) should ask himself why good law-abiding gun owners are less likely to kill in other countries? Because reality is, whether Mr Gregory realizes it or not, that most of the killings in the US are committed with legal gun purchases.

  34. LemonSky says:

    @Good Doc:

    OMG, I hope, my God, I hope you misheard what he said. Because if that no-good, God-dammed, mother-fucking, two-balled bitch indeed uttered that, then we better use all our power to make NBC fire his shitcock ass.

  35. kay says:

    @jp7505a:

    He’s captured. He’s as corrupt as the gun lobby and their bought and paid for lawmakers. One may as well listen to someone on their actual payroll.

    He doesn’t work for “us”. It’s really that simple.

  36. JGabriel says:

    __
    __
    Professor:

    Why would anyone want to kill or maim children?

    Anders Breivik killed children in Norway because they were growing up to be Labor supporters, and letting Muslims into the country:

    Breivik confessed and stated that the purpose of the attack was to save Norway and Western Europe from a Muslim takeover, and that the Labour Party had to “pay the price” for “letting down Norway and the Norwegian people”.

    .

  37. Bokonon says:

    My sister and her family live in a town adjacent to Newtown. I am sure they know people who have kids at that school. And that my nephews and nieces have friends at that school.

    Hell. Hell and damnation.

  38. RareSanity says:

    @Maude:

    If the parent wasn’t around, the fact that a combination of the police, the school’s administration, teachers, and other parents, didn’t tell those media fuckers to get the fuck away, and stay the fuck away from these kids is deplorable and inexcusable.

    The “media” involved are beyond disgusting for even considering it, let alone actually carrying it out.

  39. evinfuilt says:

    Got my screams out of my system, so adding this here.

    Now is the time, contact your officials from local to President and tell them clearly that now is the time to discuss policy, we don’t want to wait for the next shooting to wonder why we wait. Contact them now.

  40. 👽 Martin says:

    @jibeaux:

    Of all the fuckwads in the entire universe, those two FOUND each other, and one of them is dead and one at large??

    It doesn’t usually work that way. You usually get a authoritarian/authoritarian follower relationship. The latter individual would never do something like this if they didn’t find a leader to create a rationalization around it. There’s a lot of people that fit the latter category wandering around being normal, waiting for some David Koresh to wander into their life.

  41. Ash says:

    Can anyone explain why it’s always MEN who do this? I know testosterone makes men more predisposed to violence, but I need an explanation.

  42. Alex S. says:

    @ksmiami:

    The degree of gun control should depend on population density in my opinion. That lets hunters keep their guns and prohibits them in cities. But of course, it doesn’t prevent acts like this one.

  43. jl says:

    Trying to see a bright spot here, and one is that Obama won and Dems gained ground in Senate.

    We focus on cynical industry front groups like the NRA, and cynical partisan wedging by GOP.

    But, our currently hideous and corrupt Supreme Court with a critical mass of GOP hacks and cynical manipulators (hi, John Roberts) has a hand in this as well.

    One thing that can be done is, insist that Obama nominate sensible nominees to straiten out the mess the SCOTUS has made of Constitutional interpretation, and hammer the Senate to support good nominations.

    Just trying to think of a feasible was to fix the deadly mess this country has fallen into.

  44. batgirl says:

    @Steve: China – knife — 22 injured – only 2 seriously – none dead.

    USA – gun – 18 children, 8 adults dead (never even made it to the hospital), 3 sent to hospitals.

    But the NRA will tell us it isn’t about guns.

    ETA: Former FBI profiler on NBC just mentioned the China incident. He mentioned it to point out it isn’t guns. Didn’t point out the difference in fatalities.

  45. liberal says:

    @kay:

    He’s as corrupt as the gun lobby and their bought and paid for lawmakers.

    IMHO the only thing that explains the rabid insanity of the NRA’s positions is that the gun manufacturers are behind the whole thing.

  46. Mike G says:

    @Good Doc:

    David Gregory (NBC) apparently suggests that we need to wait to pass judgement until we get the details on the ‘motives’ of the killers. WTF?

    Yeah, it could have been self-defense. What a fucktard.

  47. John O says:

    There just isn’t much that can be done in our culture. But we could probably start addressing it by stipulating that it should be easier to vote than obtain a gun.

    It’s so sad and pathetic.

  48. The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik says:

    I hate things like this. Tragedy, people dead, CHILDREN especially…and as soon as I mention it to anyone, it’s all fucking anti-gun control bullshit everywhere, and I’m the fucking alien who wants to take everyone’s guns away and immediately get scolded with drug law comparisons.

    Just…fuck it. This shit really is never getting fixed.

  49. liberal says:

    @Alex S.:

    That lets hunters keep their guns and prohibits them in cities.

    Hunters don’t need pistols.(*) Hunters don’t need rapid-fire assault weapons. Unless they’re hunting other humans.

    —-

    (*) Commenter “Cassidy” claimed previously that we can’t ban pistols, because some people hunt with very large pistols. And I’m supposed to care because…?

  50. Sterling says:

    I work near the school. The first reaction of an acquaintance was to go home and get his gun because, as he said, he might need it if there was a second shooter.

    That was a real facepalm moment. These people really do live in a different reality from us. They are never going to give up their weapons.

  51. Suffern ACE says:

    @Mike G: What a moron. No. Seriously. A moraless moron. And lets wait until we find out the party affiliation of the shooters, too. Then we can see how it plays in the 2016 horse race.

  52. mouse tolliver says:

    Seriously, anyone who says “Now is not the time to talk about…” needs to be maced in the face. Including sackless Democrats who don’t want to do anything, not even talk, about sensible gun control.

  53. Paul says:

    @batgirl:

    ETA: Former FBI profiler on NBC just mentioned the China incident. He mentioned it to point out it isn’t guns. Didn’t point out the difference in fatalities.

    I took a criminology class back in college. One of things we learned that I will never forget is the likelihood of a person being able to kill somebody else when they have a gun, vs a knife vs just their hands. And the obvious conclusion was that if the perpetrator did not have a gun, the chances of somebody being killed went down dramatically.

    The China example fits right into that. So the FBI profiler is just wrong.

  54. liberal says:

    @jl:

    One thing that can be done is, insist that Obama nominate sensible nominees to straiten out the mess the SCOTUS has made of Constitutional interpretation, and hammer the Senate to support good nominations.

    It’s far worse than that. AFAICT the nutty “modern” interpretation of the 2nd Amendment started out as a relatively small group of law professors, including Instapundit, IIRC.

    Looking beyond the gun issue, there’s the largely (if not entirely) corrupt “Law and Economics” school.

    These things have a pretty strong purchase among the legal elite.

  55. Todd says:

    I keep wondering why these fuckers never go to a Koch board meeting, or an NRO strategy session, or the annual Goldman Sachs bonus party, or to Grover Norquist’s power breakfasts.

  56. Maude says:

    @RareSanity:
    It had to be chaotic and the effing reporter took advantage of it. I bet there will be a huge lawsuit over this. You can’t do this with children. I hope the reporter burns in hell and he can take a lot of other MSM with him.
    There are two girls who live in the apartment above me. They have wonderful parents. These are the people to value. Not celebrities.
    Non of the children or adults that worked at that school will ever be okay. The parents will be scared for the rest of their lives.

  57. Linda Featheringill says:

    @Ash:

    Why is it always men?

    I firmly believe that half of all bad people are female but you’re right, most of the actively violent people are male.

    Confusing as to how this sort of thing happens. I understand [but not condone] going after someone who has actively hurt you. But children? What the hell?

  58. Culture of Truth says:

    Although I don’t and would never hunt and have only held a gun once, I understand the attraction of guns. They must give an empowering feeling, as for Sterling’s friend. The gun makes them feel not just more powerful though, I think, but more protected, safer, in a dangerous world. How often have we hear some variation of my gun will keep me safe, where the gun functions a security blanket for the adult lizard brain.

  59. kay says:

    @liberal:

    Of course they are. I sometimes think this country can’t go on with this endless, inter-locking corruption. I honestly don’t know if we can sustain this level of capture. Our kids are already locked down at schools. Schools spend an enormous amount of money and time on this. We’re allowing ourselves to be made prisoners. I don’t know how to stop it, but it’s corruption, that’s the correct term, not “crazy”.

  60. Cassidy says:

    @James Hare: I seriously contemplated leaving work just to go pick up mine, and hold them on the couch for as long as thye’d let me.

    @liberal: Don’t take it to far. I’ve got no problem banning pistols. I said we won’t ban pistols with the support of the hunters and sportsmen because some of them use pistols for hunting. A lot fo them also take one as a back up weapon in…you know, in case that large pistol round just pisses the bear off and then they can use thier smaller pistol ammo to finish the job somehow.

  61. David Koch says:

    David Gregory (NBC) apparently suggests that we need to wait to pass judgement until we get the details on the ‘motives’ of the killers. WTF?

    I guess he believes in legitimate rape and legitimate mass killings of kindergartners.

    Seriously, can you imagine if Bill Maher had said something so offensive, but of course nothing will happen to Gregory, cuz IOKIYAR.

  62. jl says:

    @liberal:

    Yes, I realize that. Many in the law and economics camp cherry pick theoretical results and then apply them to every situation imaginable, even where it should be obvious that the theoretical results would not apply.

    But, what happens is that any nominee that does not adhere religiously to some reactionary doctrine is labelled political, and the GOP ramps up its propaganda machine for the nomination hearings. That is where we need to push back, and encourage the Dems to push back.

    Seems like getting more sane (Edit: Scalia), honest (Edit: Roberts and Alito) and coherent (hi Kennedy WTF) people on the Supreme Court is quickest way to stop the madness.

  63. General Stuck says:

    dear god. just now turned the computer back on and the very worst news. i am just sick for hearing of the murder of these small children who are beyond innocent. jesus christ.

  64. Darkrose says:

    I work with a bunch of relatively liberal 20-something guys. As soon as I said that perhaps we need to have a national conversation about this, the response was “I don’t think banning guns will work,” and “Crazy people will still find a way to kill someone.”

    It’s really fucking depressing.

  65. Jacquie says:

    My sister used to work in an elementary school in the same district where the shooting occurred. I’m just shaking right now. The poor babies. Their poor parents.

  66. Tonal Crow says:

    If the kids had been armed, you libtard, they would’a taken out th’ shooter pronto. Done. Now stop infringin’ my right to carry whatever the hell I want whereever I wanna.

    /wingnuts

  67. Paul says:

    @Darkrose:

    the response was “I don’t think banning guns will work,” and “Crazy people will still find a way to kill someone.”

    I assume these folks also then agree that all drugs should be legal (since drug users will find a way to get drugs anyway). Just as an example…

  68. JGabriel says:

    __
    __
    Good Doc:

    David Gregory (NBC) apparently suggests that we need to wait to pass judgement until we get the details on the ‘motives’ of the killers. WTF?

    What motive could possibly justify this? The kids were asking for it?

    Jesus H. Fucking Christ on a pogo stick, what a jacass.

    .

  69. Elliecat says:

    Fucking Lester Holt just said something like “how can we prevent this? We can’t and still live in the kind of society we want to live in.” WTF??????? I think it’s fucking Brian Williams saying “We live in a violent society,” etc., things are going to happen. Yeah, fine, people will kill other people BUT CAN’T WE FUCKING DECREASE THE AMOUNT OF SLAUGHTER?

    Fuck these people fuck them fuck them fuck them.

  70. ksmiami says:

    One more comment then back to work… Maybe Obama should go after people’s guns. I mean, the right has become so crazy that any rational discussion is out the window anyway.

  71. Rita R. says:

    My cousin lives in this town. Thankfully, his kids go to another school, but they were also put into lockdown. I can only imagine how he’s feeling, but when I heard that 26 people died, including 18 kids, it literally took my breath away for a second. Shaken me up more than something like this would in any case because it hit so close to home. There is a sickness in our culture — it’s more than just the gun laws. It’s the glorification of guns and violence.

  72. Elliecat says:

    FUCK they are reporting the shithead’s name. I’m sure we’ll be seeing his fucking face all over the place next.

    I remember seeing an interview with a forensic psychiatrist about how one way to cut down on this crap was for the media to NOT name the shithead and NOT plaster his face on the front page and all over the place because that’s what these fuckers want.

    I refuse to ever refer to one of these fuckers by their name but it gets hard to avoid their goddamn fucking faces.

  73. nemesis says:

    @DanG:
    “Shooters attack an elementary school in CT – another “gun-free zone.” Makes children sitting ducks.”

    Words fail.

  74. SatanicPanic says:

    @Paul: This should be a good reason for why we should teach probability. I would rather be the unarmed guy in a society full of criminals with knives than the armed guy in a society full of armed criminals.

  75. kay says:

    @liberal:

    We had a state legislator here, a local lawyer, a Republican. I know him, I know his wife, I’ve met his kids. He’s smart and probably considers himself a decent person. Yet he introduced a stand your ground law in the statehouse. He didn’t do that out of principle, and he’s not crazy. He’s a careful, cautious law-abiding person and I’d bet you 10 bucks there are no guns in his household. He did it out of ambition, and because he was completely captured by a powerful lobby. He’s corrupt. He made a careful, rational decision to promote the interests of that lobby over the interests of the people he serves.

  76. Calouste says:

    One of the things that can be used to change the gun culture is to shun gun owners just like smokers have been shunned over the last few decades. For example, tell people that you won’t let your children play at their house if they have guns in the house, mention some accident in which a kid got shot by their parent, that’s not that uncommon.

  77. Culture of Truth says:

    “OVERLAND PARK, Kan. – Although there is no credible threat of a school shooting in the Kansas City area, Overland Park police officers are increasing visibility around area schools as a precautionary measure.”

  78. Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Alex S.:

    The problem, of course, is how do you prevent the crazies in the low population density areas from transporting themselves and their male reassurance hardware into the more densely populated areas for exercises in bloodletting like this one today and the one in the Portland suburbs a few days ago?

  79. handsmile says:

    RE David Gregory and his fellow Villagers

    On days like today (and I expect the next few days), how much I wish a bullet would at least graze their well-coiffed heads as they went about their daily lives. And that one of their anguished loved ones could be interviewed on the scene.

    Yes, I’m well-informed about the assassination of journalists (e.g., Anna Politkovskaya), but I’m not feeling too rational or reasonable at the moment. School children being shot dead has that effect on me.

  80. The Golux says:

    These incidents are horrifying enough in any case, but the awfulness somehow seems even worse when it happens in your home state.

    “Guns don’t kill people – they only greatly improve the efficiency of people who kill people.”

  81. Suffern ACE says:

    @Elliecat: You know they’d be singing a different tune about what society they wanted to live in if they could demostrate that the killers were fueled by “gansta rap” or Marilyn Manson.

  82. Villago Delenda Est says:

    @liberal:

    IMHO the only thing that explains the rabid insanity of the NRA’s positions is that the gun manufacturers are behind the whole thing.

    DING DING DING DING DING

    This is about marketing, it’s about moving product. All this “Obama is coming to take your guns!” bullshit is about FUD to boost sales and keep the sacred profit flowing into the bank accounts of these merchants of death.

  83. jl says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: You are in danger of arguing that since any measure cannot be perfect and prevent every crime, nothing should be attempted. These things are a matter of probabilities.

    Make it more inconvenient to commit crimes, fewer will be committed. Some people will change their minds, some will be intercepted by police as they roar over the highways loaded with guns and ammo.

    So, I would not suggest to Norway, that they loosen gun control simply because one horrible tragedy occurred.

  84. Villago Delenda Est says:

    @handsmile:

    If it makes you feel any better, guys like Dancin’ Dave are not actually journalists. At best, they’re courtiers. At worst, they’re blatant whores. And not the good kind who offer sex for money, either.

  85. Bostondreams says:

    @jl:

    His mother taught at the school. She was one of the victims, and it seems it was her class. He also killed his father.

    My God.

  86. Schlemizel says:

    I know he is not sufficiently pure enough for the crowd here but Mike Moore had a very cogent point about this shit. He compared the number of deaths in mass killings in every other country in the world vs. the US. Oddly enough we outdid the whole rest of the world. Guns make it so easy but America makes it every day, day after day, just a fact of life

  87. jl says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Absolutely true. That is why the NRA and their ilk and their sold out GOP allies are worse the deluded ideological scum. They are cynical manipulators for $$$. Move more guns and ammo, that is their real goal, and they do not care how many innocent people die, or unbalanced sick minded people destroy their lives through easy guns and easy ammo on demand.

  88. Elliecat says:

    @trollhattan: nope, turns out his mom’s body is not at her house, it’s in her classroom with all her dead kindergarteners. Of course, reporting that is telling any parents who don’t already know that their child is dead.

    fucking A, it’s bad enough talking to my kids about the “red alert” drills they have almost as often as they have fire drills.

  89. Villago Delenda Est says:

    @jl:

    I’m not sure that a low density/high density legal rule will hold up very long in a society that has the degree of mobility that this one does. It’s very easy to transport crazies and their weapons from low density to high density. Do you propose checkpoints on highways to screen for guns as you cross the beltway?

    It’s simply not practical on a number of levels.

  90. Schlemizel says:

    Edgar: You can have my gun, when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.
    Bug: Your proposal is acceptable.

  91. Gravie says:

    One of my wingnut relatives is citing that Harvard study that said stricter gun control laws don’t result in lower homicide rates. I remember there was something dicey about it but I can’t remember what. Does anyone remember the particulars?

  92. graves007 says:

    What’s really truly important to remember is, thankfully there won’t be any over-reaction or crazy talk about changes to American gun laws just because another 27 people, including 18 kids were murdered at school. When gun laws are changed, that’s when Americans should really grieve because what’s worse than more gun regulation! (that dirty fucking ‘R’ word). Keep your eye on the scope America, yer doing a fine job.

  93. TooManyJens says:

    I’m starting to think the only way to regain the ability to have a rational conversation about gun violence in this country would be to make it illegal to profit from the sale of guns and ammunition. Not illegal to own them, or to sell them at cost, maybe even some kind of non-profit hunters’ collectives or something. Just to profit. Dry up the funding and the motivation for the murder-facilitation lobby. Then we can talk about actual self-defense needs.

  94. jp7505a says:

    Not to worry about gun control. The Orangeman has ordered the flags on capital hill to fly at half staff. That will fix the problem

  95. jl says:

    @Gravie:

    I am not familiar with that study, but in any statistical analysis there is always a problem with the direction of causality. If gun control laws are passed on a local level in response to increased gun crime, and gun control laws are passed, there will be a statistical association between gun control laws and crime.

    Same issue came up when, lo and behold, several conservative and libertarian type media pundits discovered that there is more mass transit in big cities with bad traffic congestion. Oh. My. God! How could we have got so wrong, other than them damned dishonest liberals!

    There is a saying in statistics: no causes in, then no causes out. Meaning that if a research wants to make a causal claim based on the statistics, then there needs to be an explicit causal model that explains the direction of causality written down, before a research does the statistical analysis, Part of making a causal claim from statistical analysis is showing that your preferred causal model is more consistent with the correlations estimated in the study than rival causal models.

    Many policy studies that make causal claims of policy responses to social problems are plagued by the problem of an inadequate argument from correlations (which do not in themselves have any causal direction) to causality. What many dishonest, deluded, ignorant, or careless researchers do is fiddle with the estimates until they fit some causal model that the research has in his or her head, and that is then written down after the statistical fiddling is done. When that happens, the statistics are worthless for anything (even establishing real correlations) and their is no valid statistical argument for the causal claim.

    No causes in, no causes out. Did the study have a causal model written out before the statistics were done, and are the statistics more consistent with that causal model than others? Always ask that question when you read a statistical study that makes a causal claim. Do not give it much weight if those steps are not taken.

  96. jl says:

    @Bostondreams: We have such a professional and responsible corporate media, don’t we. Hope the misidentified person doesn’t get hurt. I hope he can retire on the money he gets in the defamation case.

  97. Heliopause says:

    When is Wayne Lapierre going to get rounded up and jailed for a few decades? I’m thinking RICO would apply.

  98. mouse tolliver says:

    @Gravie:

    One of my wingnut relatives is citing that Harvard study that said stricter gun control laws don’t result in lower homicide rates. I remember there was something dicey about it but I can’t remember what. Does anyone remember the particulars?

    Bet it’s something obvious. Like the study only looked at gun-related homicide convictions rather than the number of gun-related deaths.

  99. liberal says:

    @Cassidy:

    …you know, in case that large pistol round just pisses the bear off and then they can use thier smaller pistol ammo to finish the job somehow.

    If hunting with a bow or long gun isn’t enough to avoid bodily injury, maybe that’s the FSM’s way of saying you shouldn’t be hunting that type of animal?

  100. liberal says:

    @jl:

    Many in the law and economics camp cherry pick theoretical results and then apply them to every situation imaginable, even where it should be obvious that the theoretical results would not apply.

    I might be wrong about this, but my impression is that one of the main theoretical underpinnings of the school is the Coase Theorem.

    The problem with the Coase Theorem is that, even without any transaction costs, it’s simply wrong—multiple equilibria can result because there’s no reason to assume that willingness to accept is equal to willingness to pay (e.g., the endowment effect).

  101. liberal says:

    @Calouste:
    Well, look, I’m very pro gun control, but merely having guns in the house isn’t an indication of nuttery.

    Concealed carry, OTOH—with a few exceptions (perhaps e.g. commenter CelticDragonChick), quite a few of the concealed carry people I’d want to steer well clear of, and disallowing concealed carry would allow that. Though that won’t help me if I get involved with them in a road rage accident and they decide to blow my brains out.

  102. hep kitty says:

    @chopper:

    wtf ‘motive’ does dancin’ dave expect here? wtf does that have to do with judging the efficacy of gun legislation or lack thereof?

    Well if that isn’t a classic David Gregory-ism, I don’t know what is.

  103. Digital Amish says:

    Yeah, but the real tragedy here would be if someone would have to go through a more stringent background check and waiting period before taking possession of that Glock.

    /outraged sarcasm mode

  104. hep kitty says:

    @handsmile:

    (e.g., Anna Politkovskaya),

    If I’m not mistaken, wasn’t she actually, by contrast, a decent human being? Of course, I didn’t mean to imply, well, I’m just saying.

  105. liberal says:

    @Maude:
    How was MM being a moral arbiter? He was merely attempting to contribute to the discussion, and if one doubt’s his presentation of the facts of the matter, one is always free to look them up themselves.

  106. gene108 says:

    @jp7505a:

    Until the law abiding gun owners standup and slap down the NRA and the 2nd amendment absolutist they will bear atleast some responsibility for this. If the good hunters and gun owners in Michigan marched on the legislature and demanded that the gunshow loophole, the lack of background checks, limits on multi-round magazines be passed then maybe something would get done.

    You don’t realize how slippery the gun-grabbin’ slope is?

    Give another inch and it’s jack-booted thugs breaking into homes taking away everyone’s guns.

    There is no more room to negotiate. Enforce the existing laws and quit trying to encroach on gun owners Constitutional rights.

    /right-wing thought process

    i.e. It’s hopeless at this point, because the hunters and such really do feel crazily threatened that giving an inch on gun laws will mean Diane Feinstein will lead a troop of jack booted thugs to take away their guns.

  107. Villago Delenda Est says:

    @jl:

    I don’t think it’s a matter of the perfect being the enemy of the good, I just don’t think it will be very effective at addressing the problem of weapons being discharged in high density areas.

    Oh, sure, add a few years on to the sentence. Like this is going to deter the crazies.

  108. Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    We can’t stop every sick person from doing sickening things. We should be able to stop providing sick people with the means to create carnage in seconds yet we don’t and we won’t. The relatively modest federal Assault Weapons Ban expired in 2004 and bills to renew it have never reached the floor for a vote. That means that renewal of the ban didn’t reach the floor when Dems had modest majorities in Congress.

    I wish that I could say that this day’s sorrow is sufficient to compel our lawmakers to enact meaningful gun control legislation, but it won’t. The next time won’t either.

  109. hep kitty says:

    President says something about taking “meaningful action.” It’s Waco time, folks.

    Any “meaningful action,” no matter how minor, will be an excuse for stockpiling of weapons and for right wing military compounds to spring up all over the country.

    Mark my words. It’s Waco time.

  110. 1badbaba3 says:

    @spudvol: This story, I fear, has layers of ugly and evil that will astound. And I cannot help feeling that it will continue to get worse.

    And now the President has spoken, which should bring out the usual suspects for their diametrically opposed, yet frightfully disproportionate response. Mayhaps this is the time that they go too far.

  111. Hungry Joe says:

    The correct response to “They want to take away our guns!” isn’t “No, no, we just want to tighten controls on certain kinds of blah blah blah and maybe register blah blah blah.” The correct response is “You’re goddam right we want to take away your guns.”

    You say you need a hunting rifle or a shotgun? Apply for a license. Pass a background check. Maybe even a safety course.

    You say you need a handgun? Tough.

    Not politically viable, I know. But those are the right answers anyway.

  112. Missouri Mike says:

    In the Virginia, Arizona and Aurora mass shootings, the perpetrator had drawn the attention of state university officials, had legal action taken against them, and/or had physicians counseling them. No one took any meaningful action to alert state law enforcement authorities that might have been able to block access to firearms purchases or investigate further.

    I am waiting to see whom in Connecticut was relaxing with coffee and a cookie while a deranged individual was allowed to roam free.

    There is no evidence of anything yet but it seems like a good bet.

    In the meantime ban official non-feasance not firearms.

  113. handsmile says:

    @hep kitty:

    Anna Politkovskya was one of the truly heroic journalists and human rights activists of our time. Her indomitable reporting from Chechnya and investigations into Kremlin corruption earned her many international admirers, but grievously, many domestic enemies. She was assassinated in 2006.

    Earlier today in fact her killer, a retired police officer, was sentenced to 11 years in prison. If you have a moment, this linked Wikipedia entry provides a good summary of her legendary career and the ignoble delay in obtaining justice for her murder.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya

    Dancin’ Dave may well be considered a “decent human being” by friends and family, but as Villago Delenda Est correctly notes above (#133), he’s certainly no journalist.

  114. amorphous says:

    @Frank: This. This is the right words for the feeling in my stomach. I have been averse to leaving the US to move my wife and kids to my wife’s home country in Europe, but this week and this one in particular has changed that. I am not saying “I am out of here!” but it now for me is a real option. For me personally, I can’t describe what a major emotional change this represents. This country has a bad sickness.

  115. SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Good Doc:
    @LemonSky:

    The other David said something similar on NPR a few minutes ago. Not quite as baldly, but, you know, without knowing anything about the shooter or his motives, our Mister Brooks would be uncomfortable speculating.

  116. Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Bostondreams:

    That is essentially a rerun of Kip Kinkle, except Kinkle killed his parents first, then he went to school and started shooting his classmates.

  117. jon says:

    In most of the world, “Shit Happens” is a reason to install a sewage system. In Teabag America, it’s a reason not to.

  118. Allison says:

    @RareSanity:

    The news media is there so we can all find out what happend. I am stuck to this like glue because I want to try to figure out what went wrong here and to know if there is anything we can do to offer support to these poor people. Without the media we wouldn’t even know anything happened. What I am seeing are respectful professionals doing their job for crying out loud. How else can we show them the compassion they all need in that town.

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