More Charming Behavior From Our Galtian Overlords

Disgusting:

According to a report by the Wall Street Journal , Hostess’ CEO, Gregory Rayburn, essentially admitted that his company stole employee pension money and put it toward CEO and senior executive pay (aka “operations”). While this isn’t technically illegal, it’s another sleazy theft by Hostess executives – who’ve paid themselves handsomely while running their company into the ground. Just last month, a judge agreed to let Hostess executives suck another $1.8 million out of the bankrupt company to pay bonuses to CEOs.

If there’s no way to recover the money for the Hostess pension plans for workers, then we the taxpayers – through the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. – will have to foot the bill to make sure workers get the retirement money they paid in.

Hostess shows us clearly what Bain-style predatory capitalism is all about: big bucks for the very few rich executives, layoffs and poverty for the workers and their communities.

How is this legal?

133 replies
  1. 1
    Lit3Bolt says:

    Because they’re white, male, and wearing suits. How could they possibly be guilty of anything, the lovable scamps?

  2. 2
    General Stuck says:

    How is this legal?

    Dunno. But you can get away with some evil shit under the banner of “saving” something.

  3. 3
    MattF says:

    Hey, they were just following the old rule: “Rich or poor, it’s nice to have money.”

  4. 4
    General Stuck says:

    So wordpress back to dropping acid? cool

  5. 5
    Haydnseek says:

    It’s legal because they own the people who make the laws. But you knew that.

  6. 6
    Li says:

    Because our business law was written by well manicured thieves. Or to put it another way, because the foxes are guarding the henhouse.

  7. 7
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    How is this legal?

    What, is this a trick question or something? Because our Galtian Underlords, aka Congress, made it so. See: The Golden Rule for details.

    It would be kind of nice to have a do-over on the last 30 years, but I’m not holding my breath waiting for it to happen.

  8. 8
    The Moar You Know says:

    It’s legal because the judge said it’s legal, and the one thing we don’t get to do in this society is question the legitimacy of our “justice” system even when they give robber barons license to literally steal everything we have.

    My father got shafted by a bankruptcy judge under very similar circumstances. Entire pension. Gone. Company spent it on a party. You think I’m joking.

  9. 9
    Brachiator says:

    According to a report by the Wall Street Journal , Hostess’ CEO, Gregory Rayburn, essentially admitted that his company stole employee pension money and put it toward CEO and senior executive pay (aka “operations”).

    And this sad truth is running to catch the lie that it was the evil unions that did Hostess in.

  10. 10
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    This shit will not stop until these thieves are either thrown in jail, or they’re put to well deserved death.

    And this shit MUST stop.

  11. 11
    aimai says:

    Its just heartbreaking to hear the details when you realize how fervently some of the unions were saving for retirement–I think the Maine Baker’s local was socking money away like nobody’s business only to discover that the money was being deducted from their wages (or never turned over to them as wages) and then not put into the pension plan at all.

    aimai

  12. 12
    The Moar You Know says:

    Oh yeah, that Pension Guarantee Corporation? IF Congress funds it, which is never certain, the legal maximum you get out of it is ten cents on the dollar.

    That’s the maximum.

    Theft is awesome if you’re rich. You can steal a man’s livelihood and retirement from him and never worry about even being asked to explain where it all went.

  13. 13
    Ben Franklin says:

    Again…this is fucking legal….how?

    rhetorical question alert

  14. 14
    Punchy says:

    OT, and also just fucking digusting

    Oddly, I dont really support the death penalty for any crimes except these. Just sickening.

  15. 15
    Michael G says:

    Whenever I hear these stories, it makes my blood boil.

    The only thing that ever really surprises me is that one of the people who had their pension stolen doesn’t just snap and get some revenge.

  16. 16
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    It might not be legal. There might be actual illegal behavior going on, but there are so many smokescreens and false trails built into the process that I doubt any prosecutor is going to find something he could take to a jury with confidence.

  17. 17
    RareSanity says:

    It’s legal because middle-aged white guys in suits don’t “steal”.

    Maybe they re-allocate some capital, or restructure finances, or “insure that top executive talent is retained”…but never, ever steal.

    You try that same shit while wearing jeans and tennis shoes, your ass is going to jail.

  18. 18
    jl says:

    If rich white fatcats gonna make themselves some omelettes. they gotta break some eggs.

    Hostess was brought up be teabagger relatives over Thsnksgiving with some heavy hints that it was them damn union thugs demanding Cadillac wages that shut the place down.

    If we had a family Holiday dinner referee, there should have been a yellow card, since it was borderline violation of no political agitating over dinner.

    But I related the corporate history of Hostess Brands and how those where the goofballs who bought up Parisian Bakers in SF Bay, and then closed it down after they found out there wasn’t much market for wonderbread-ized sour dough. Because from what I read, that was their business model for years: use unlimited corporate cash to buy up a decent bakery, try to make it like they did wonderbread or cupcakes, fail, close it down, move on to next corporate bakery failure.

    So, the chorus of outrage over Parisian shut down the teabaggers.

  19. 19
    Matthew Reid Krell says:

    The actual answer as to why the judge ruled it legal: Hostess workers agreed to have their pensions directly funded by the company, rather than contributing out of their paychecks. In fact, in the last pay raise, workers agreed to have 28 cents out of a 30-cent-per-hour raise go directly into the pension fund. They never even SAW that money.

    And because they never saw it, it was never theirs. So sayeth the judge. As a lawyer, it makes me sad. I can’t say anything else about what I’m thinking because I post under my real name.

    Of course, as a labor lawyer, I’m thinking, “This is a unilateral change of the CBA under 8(a)(5), and the NLRB could order back pay on all of that money. Why aren’t the workers seeking that mechanism in lieu of the bankruptcy?” Actually, I don’t know the answer to that. Does bankruptcy prevent federal administrative action?

  20. 20
    Ben Franklin says:

    Cole;

    Plz fx ths…..

  21. 21
    jl says:

    Danger, John Cole, Danger, Danger! Warning! Red flash siren alert!

    Are the warnings some geek Drudge gimmick to get traffic, or what?

    Why not just have an animated siren and crackling flame gadgets. And ‘must credit Balloon-Juice’?

  22. 22
    Grumpy Code Monkey says:

    Unpossible. Everyone *knows* it’s the union’s fault.

  23. 23
    The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik says:

    Whoever has the Gold makes the Rules. Duh.

    What pisses me off especially is how this shit goes on and yet people still froth at the goddamn mouth about how evil and destructive unions are as if they were the worstest thing in the history of goddamned ever. Ignore the boss raiding the company safe, instead curse at the low level guy because someone told you he’s the boogeyman and the reason your lunch money went missing.

  24. 24
    Jack the Second says:

    The difference between white collar crime and all other crime is that it’s carried out under the supervision of legal council. The executives didn’t just wake up one day, decide to screw their workers, and luck out that once they did it wasn’t illegal. They strategized. They had thousand-dollar-an-hour lawyers on retainer. They went to retreats in the Aspens where they carefully considered their options. They billed it all to the company.

    If these guys put half as much effort into actually running the businesses they carefully bleed, they wouldn’t be bankrupt.

    But that’s not really the point, is it?

  25. 25

    I believe its a play on the old numbers adage:

    If you steal a hundred dollars, you’re a thief. If you steal a hundred million dollars, you’re a capitalist hero.

  26. 26
    Maude says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    I say we scalp them.

  27. 27
    Raven says:

    Punk ass tweety is having a fit about the union dude lighting up this punk Steven Crowder.

  28. 28
    PurpleGirl says:

    @The Moar You Know: Congress doesn’t fund it. It is supposed to be self-supporting by charging a premium to the employers of the plans it takes over. It currently has a $34 Billion deficient of its own. Congress does decide on the interest rate that the PBGC can charge, though.

    As The Moar You Know says, it doesn’t even pay the full amount of the promised pensions.

  29. 29
    RareSanity says:

    PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:

    Until the WARNING, WARNING messages get fixed, yo can get rid of them by holding down the “Shift” key, and clicking on the reload button on you browser. Or do a “Shift-F5”, or for those of you using a Mac, “Shift-cmd-R”

    And now back to the regularly scheduled, snark-based, bitching and moaning…

  30. 30
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Comrade Dread:

    If you steal a hundred dollars, you’re a thief. If you steal a hundred million dollars, you’re a capitalist hero.

    Yup.

    But what’s awesome is the way the Obama administration has been cracking down on bankers and other white collar corporate criminals over the last four years, making it a priority to propose and pass a slew of new laws to make sure this shit doesn’t happen and that those who perpetrate this crap are held to account. I mean just look at all the executives who have gone to jail…

    …oh wait.

    Never mind.

  31. 31
    RareSanity says:

    ADDENDUM TO PSA:

    The url must be “clean”.

    i.e. can’t have “#comment-XXXXXX” at the end of it.

    FYWP!

  32. 32
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Maude: The execs or the prosecutors?

  33. 33
    John Cole says:

    Someone take a screen shot of these so called warnings and email them to me. I am not seeing anything in Chrome or Firefox.

    I can’t fix what I can’t see.

  34. 34
    Ben Franklin says:

    As George Carlin said;

    “The reason conservatives are so hard on street criminals, is they want to make it safe for white-collar crime” (paraphrased)

  35. 35
    Raven says:

    Sorry I used punk twice in the same sentence! I just watch the Fox video of Crowder getting jacked. The union dude somehow went down and came back up swinging. Fuckin A right.

  36. 36
    scav says:

    If it’s done in a three piece suit, it’s innovative and job-creating. Who will think of the tips their servers and nail-masseurs would be without if innovation was stifled!

  37. 37
    RareSanity says:

    @John Cole:

    You should have seen it right after you commented…did you?

  38. 38
    James Hare says:

    @Ted & Hellen:
    Yes, because under current law the Obama administration had lots of options to prosecute said conduct. They didn’t need to get anything passed by congress to make such behavior illegal.

    OH WAIT–We don’t have a king, we have a President. As such, his power is circumscribed by existing law. Getting new laws passed to make such behavior illegal would require passing those laws through the congress. You know, the same legislative body that couldn’t pass effective banking regulation after the biggest bank scandal since the Great Depression.

  39. 39
    bemused says:

    @Raven:

    Tweety’s mind is a mucked up maze. I enjoy watching the faces of David Corn, Joan Walsh or other guests listening to Tweety. You can just see them trying to figure out where the hell he is going so they can respond…if he lets them. He goes on a long disjointed ramble, stops to let them answer and then interrupts before they finish to go on another tangent.

  40. 40
    vtr says:

    I know this has been brought up before, but it warrants constant repetition for a very long time until it sinks in. Tell your wingie uncle Ned, that Rush, Joe Scar, Sean, Laura, Anne Coulter, Glenn Beck, everyone at Fox, all belong to AFTRA, the union they have to belong to to be on the air. Yet they never, ever complain about their union. I want bumper sticker that says “Rush belongs to a union. Why can’t I?”

  41. 41
  42. 42
    PurpleGirl says:

    Testing, testing, 1,2,3

  43. 43
    kc says:

    It’s okay to steal if you’re already rich.

  44. 44
    Maude says:

    @John Cole:
    I’m on FF 17. It comes and goes. Now you see it and now you don’t. This is a wondrous glitch from the update.
    If you have trouble uploading images, that will clear itself up.

  45. 45
    bemused says:

    @vtr:

    Excellent idea. Make your own bumper sticker, bet you could sell a lot of them.

  46. 46
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @James Hare:

    We don’t have a king, we have a President. As such, his power is circumscribed by existing law.

    Oh, the familiar, plaintive warble of the Obot war cry: “No we can’t!”

    Before the election: “WE HAVE TO RE ELECT PBO OR THE COUNTRY WILL BE DESTROYED. IT MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE TO THE SURVIVAL OF OUR NATION!”

    After the election: “THE PRESIDENT IS NOT A DICTATOR! HE CAN’T DO ANYTHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING! SHUT UP!”

  47. 47
    Maude says:

    @James Hare:
    I have tried to explain that. Forget it. The answer is it is because Obama doesn’t want to. You can’t get through to someone on that.

  48. 48
    mclaren says:

    How is this legal?

    Silly Cole. America has thrown away the rule of law by murdering Red Cross aid workers with drones and by ordering by presidential decree the murder of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charging them with having committed a crime.

    In post-legal America, anything done by a person with money and power is legal. Now that the constitution has gone away, we’re back in the jungle. All that counts is brute force and cold cash.

    This has been another edition of “simple answers to simple questions.”

  49. 49

    @James Hare: Normally, I’d agree with you, but considering the Justice Department just let HSBC off with a fine for laundering 800 million or so in cartel money and skirting US sanctions on Iran, there really does seem to be more than a congressional disconnect when it comes to corporate maleficence.

    It’s a systemic rot that has infected the White House and SCOTUS too.

  50. 50
    Raven says:

    @mclaren: Simple is something you know a lot about shit head.

  51. 51
    Mouse Tolliver says:

    How is this legal?

    If Tony Montana was a senator, cocaine dealing would be legal. Our government is run by white collar criminals, that’s how it’s legal.

  52. 52
    TooManyJens says:

    Where the fuck are Nate Ford and his crew when you need them?

  53. 53
    scav says:

    @John Cole: I’m going to assume someone else has grabbed you a shot, but you might was to poast / edit to confirm as we all know how much you love email from us.
    mcL copied and pasted the bulk of it on one of his bottom feeding preenings of how superior he is in open-Minded brain-dribblings at the bottom of the debt-ceiling thread. appears as pseudo name and first part of some comments, seems to be those within a moving window of time around when you’ld have an edit button around a comment of your own as best i can figure. anybody notice other habits of the beast?

  54. 54
    PurpleGirl says:

    I copied and pasted the warning text and e-mailed it to John. Here’s hoping he can fix the problem.

  55. 55
    R. Porrofatto says:

    Sadly, this is kind of thing is old news: Here’s a story about robbing pensions from 2005 that was buried. The only reason it isn’t a crime is because they made it legal, like so much else that enriches them.

    It’s like savings & loan managers stealing bank accounts and then having the FDIC make up for the theft. Oh wait, that kind of happened.

  56. 56
    Mr Stagger Lee says:

    Well I could suggest to use RICO, but wait! I have an idea!! Tell Eric Holder that these guys stole the money to open up a Medical Marijuana distribution operation, or they funneled the money to Wikileaks, then we will see justice!

  57. 57
    mclaren says:

    @James Hare:

    OH WAIT—We don’t have a king, we have a President. As such, his power is circumscribed by existing law.

    Somehow the obots reverse themselves completely when it comes to Obama ordering the murder of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charging them with a crime.

    Suddenly, when it comes time for Obama to act like a mafia don and order the murder of U.S. citizens, Obama has unlimited power — he’s the commander in chief, limitless potent, with no boundaries on his capacities.

    It’s only when someone suggests that Obama use the powers of the presidency to help the middle class that Obama suddenly becomes a tiny helpless impotent insect, ensared in the iron cables of immutable law.

    Oddly enough, those iron cables of immutable law written into the constitution in Amendment 5 seem to disappear as soon as Obama orders the assassination of American citizens without trial:

    Constitution of the United States: Amendment 5

    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

    Why don’t people like James Hare pound the table and shout and object strenuously when Obama orders the extrajudicial murder of U.S. citizens “We don’t have a king, we have a President. As such, his power is circumscribed by existing law”?

    Oh, wait…it’s because obots like James Hare are compulsive pathological liars.

    Obots like James Hare don’t give a shit about the law, their attitude is “it’s not fascism if our guy does it” and “fuck the law, the president did it, so that makes it legal.”

    In short, the depraved and dishonest Richard Nixon defense, a slight variant of the old Nurmberg defense “we were only following orders.”

  58. 58
    TooManyJens says:

    @mclaren: Wow, I sure am glad none of this shit ever happened before Obama took office. Here I was thinking that societies have always had to be on guard against corruption by rich and powerful people who use their money and power to grab themselves more money and power, and fuck anyone who gets in their way.

    But it turns out, it’s All Obama’s Fault! That should make the problem a lot easier to solve.

  59. 59
    RareSanity says:

    @Mr Stagger Lee:

    Okay, that actually made me laugh.

    Well played Sir…

  60. 60
    Raven says:

    @RareSanity: How you doin? Goin to El Paso.

  61. 61
    The Moar You Know says:

    Our government is run by white collar criminals, that’s how it’s legal.

    @Mouse Tolliver: Everyone, here’s your answer. Thanks, Mouse. You call it crime, they call it responsible business practices.

    We get to vote on the type of crime leader we want, that’s all. You can have Escobar, who only killed his enemies and went out of his way to take care of everyone else, or you can have the Zetas, who kill thousands of non-combatants on purpose just to make sure everyone knows who’s in charge.

    Ask a Mexican resident about how awesome their lives got after we took out Escobar “for them”.

  62. 62
    mclaren says:

    @Mr Stagger Lee:

    Abso-fucking-lutely. Make an anonymous phone call to the White House telling them that those CEOs are whistelblowers revealing diplomatic cables.

    Obama will send black ops goons to grab ’em and hurl them into CIA secret prisons without trial and without charges where they’ll languish like Bradley Manning for years without ever getting to see a lawyer or a judge.

  63. 63
    RareSanity says:

    @Raven:

    El Paso? You’re a funny guy raven. LOL

    I’m so done with Paul Johnson and his crap. I wouldn’t physically go and watch them play if the game was in my backyard.

  64. 64
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @TooManyJens:

    Wow, I sure am glad none of this shit ever happened before Obama took office. Here I was thinking that societies have always had to be on guard against corruption by rich and powerful people who use their money and power to grab themselves more money and power, and fuck anyone who gets in their way.

    Hope. Change.

  65. 65
    mclaren says:

    @TooManyJens:

    Wow, I sure am glad none of this shit ever happened before Obama took office.

    Wonderful! The “drug dealer” offense.

    DRUG DEALER: “Sure I sell dope to kids, but other guys were doing it before me, so what’s the problem?

    Thanks for giving us a full picture on your lack of conscience. “Dick Cheney did it before Obama did it, so what’s the problem?”

    Genius.

    This is now the gold standard for American morality: “Dick Cheney did the same shit years ago. What are you making a big deal about?”

    Behold the collapse and decay of America, ladies and gentlemen. It’s like the Roman empire under Caligula. “What’s so bad about Caligula? He’s only doing the same things Tiberius did. LOL! HAHAHAHA!”

    I hope you like your descent into barbarism, folks, because you’re going to be stuck there for a long long time. Once you throw out the rule of law and abandon observed reality, it’s really really hard to get ’em back.

  66. 66
    👽 Martin says:

    If there’s no way to recover the money for the Hostess pension plans for workers, then we the taxpayers – through the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. – will have to foot the bill to make sure workers get the retirement money they paid in.

    That’s not true. PBGC only covers pensions that are managed by the company. Hostess’s pension is part of a group pension plan managed by the baker’s union. Even if Hostess isn’t around, the pension will be and the pension managing firm (the union) is responsible for any shortfall. So, it’s the rest of the bakers union that gets stuck with the bill here, not the PBGC.

    And as the vicious cycle works, in order for the baker’s union to respond to Hostess shorting the fund, the union is going to have to go back to the other bakeries and demand larger contributions or divert more pay toward the pension to right the ship. And of course, the union will be blamed for making such demands, when all they’re doing is backfilling for Hostess’ failure.

  67. 67
    mclaren says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    We get to vote on the type of crime leader we want, that’s all. You can have Escobar, who only killed his enemies and went out of his way to take care of everyone else, or you can have the Zetas, who kill thousands of non-combatants on purpose just to make sure everyone knows who’s in charge.

    You have officially won this thread.

  68. 68
    Catpause says:

    Recorded between June 4-8, 2012, Charleston Co, SC:
    Kiawah Island
    Thomas R. Waylett sold 15 Ocean Course Drive, Otter Island to Gregory F. Rayburn for $3.7 million.

  69. 69
    TenguPhule says:

    No Jury in America would convict a Hostess employee who clawed back those bonuses from the CEO and associates through a claw hammer to the skull.

    Unless the employee is black.

  70. 70
    TenguPhule says:

    Suddenly, when it comes time for Obama to act like a mafia don and order the murder of U.S. citizens, Obama has unlimited power—he’s the commander in chief, limitless potent, with no boundaries on his capacities.

    Hey, I still see Boehner walking around with his head still attached to his neck. Your argument is invalid.

  71. 71
    ruemara says:

    @Ted & Hellen: How, exactly, is a systematic problem that has been in evidence since George Bush the first Obama’s fault? I know he is your Marduk, but, there is no cop-out when the actions are immoral,yet the lawmaking body will not make the actions illegal. It is not a cop-out when the people who are responsible for holding elected officials accountable fail to do so. What the hell does posting “Hope. Change.” have to do with anything that you are bringing up?

  72. 72
    TenguPhule says:

    his shit will not stop until these thieves are either thrown in jail, or they’re put to well deserved death.

    Why is this an either or scenerio?

  73. 73
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    Hostess shows us clearly what Bain-style predatory capitalism is all about: big bucks for the very few rich executives, layoffs and poverty for the workers and their communities.

    What? How dare you?! Don’t you know that “Mitt Romney should be a role model for the nation”?

  74. 74
    Bill Arnold says:

    @TenguPhule:
    RudePundit covered the logical intersection of T&H and M’s concerns amusingly with the mock memo “The Case for Using Predator Drone Strikes Against Wall Street Executives”

  75. 75
    Hungry Joe says:

    A friend told me that what Hostess’ execs pulled qualifies as “Betrayal without remedy.” That’s a good name for a band (and probably a better name for some band’s third CD), but what it means in very real people’s lives is “Yeah, they stole your money, but there’s nothing you can do about it.”

  76. 76
    Publius39 says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Oh, the familiar, plaintive warble of the Obot war cry: “No we can’t!”
    Before the election: “WE HAVE TO RE ELECT PBO OR THE COUNTRY WILL BE DESTROYED. IT MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE TO THE SURVIVAL OF OUR NATION!”
    After the election: “THE PRESIDENT IS NOT A DICTATOR! HE CAN’T DO ANYTHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING! SHUT UP!”

    This is a highly disingenuous false equivalence argument.

  77. 77
    mai naem says:

    Firstly, if people think that the HSBC fine would have happened under Romney/McCain, you are crazy. Ditto for BP. Ditto for the hedge fund prosecutions. Dodd Frank was not going to happen under Romney/McCain. Romney was talking about repealing it. Sorry, but as Durbin said DC is owned by the banks. You’re going to have supermajorities in Congress and the WH if you want aggressive bank regulation.

    The pension thing – I’ve mentioned it before. The Chicago RE guy Sam Zell who bought the Tribune papers pulled the same crap on those papers. This crap has been pulled on journos or their colleagues, you would think they would cover this better. Making this crap illegal should be on a WH petition. I had this on my OFA what do you want us to do now list. This crap was pulled at Delphi too.

  78. 78
    Kristin says:

    Oh look, more corporate mooching off the taxpayers. I heard something on the radio the other day about Google saving $2 billion in taxes by setting up a foreign shell company. It ain’t the 47% who ate stealing from everyone.

  79. 79
    LanceThruster says:

    @Maude:

    Biker #2: [the whole gang holds Pee-wee hostage] I say we kill him!
    Biker Gang: [shout] Yeah!
    Biker #3: I say we hang him, *then* we kill him!
    Biker Gang: [shout] Yeah!
    Biker #4: I say we stomp him!
    Biker Gang: [shout] Yeah!
    Biker #4: Then we tattoo him!
    Biker Gang: [shout] Yeah!
    Biker #4: Then we hang him…!
    Biker Gang: [shout] YEAH!’!
    Biker #4: And then we kill him!
    Biker Gang: [shout] YEAH!’!’!
    Pee-wee: [tries to throw voice without moving lips] I say we let him go.
    Biker Gang: [shout] NO!’!’!

  80. 80
    mclaren says:

    @ruemara: @ruemara:

    How, exactly, is a systematic problem that has been in evidence since George Bush the first Obama’s fault?

    Gotta love it! Now Barack Obama’s deliberate decision to order more troops into the failed pointless unwinnable quagmire in Afghanistan is “a systemic problem.”

    Now Barack Obama sifting through “mug shots and brief biographies [that] resembled a high school yearbook layout. Several were Americans. Two were teenagers, including a girl who looked even younger than her 17 years” in order to decide which 17-year-old girl to murder without a trial or charges is “a systemic problem.”

    Now, suddenly, Barack Obama signing off on extending the Bush cat cuts for billionaires is “a systemic problem.”

    Now Barack Obama calling Paul Ryan’s insane Ponzi scheme to voucherize medicare “a legitimate proposal” in 2010 is “a systemic problem.”

    Now Barack Obama ordering the wiretapping of every American, every phone call, every text message, every e-mail, every bank record, every credit card transaction, all collected in a giant NSA data center in Nevada is “a systemic problem.”

    Have you even listened to yourself?

    This is the Nuremberg defense. “It wasn’t mass murder, it’s a systemic problem.” The total denial of personal responsibility.

    Barack Obama isn’t a living breathing human being whom we elected and put in charge and who is personally individually responsible for his own actions and his own conscious decisions. No, no, no, nooooooooo, Obama is just a helpless impotent cog in the giant machine of government. He has no options, no volition, no personal choice.

    You’re channeling Hannah Arendt when she wrote of Adolf Eichmann:

    “A leaf in the whirlwind of time, he was blown from Schlaraffia, the Never-Never Land of tables set by magic…into the marching column of the Thousand-Year Reich.” [Adrendt, Hannah, “Eichmann in Jerusalem,” 1977, pg. 33]

    Barack Obama as Adolf Eichmann: why does this new rhetorical tactic fail to fill us with comfort and reassurance?

    Having frantically and dishonestly tried to absolve Obama of all responsibility by making him into a powerless mote of dust at the mercy of random forces (rather than the most powerful man on earth, the president of the united states, who has made conscious personal decisions to violate the constitute and break the law by committing a wide variety of war crimes), you’ll next attempt to remove agency entirely from the Obama administration.

    Wait for it: “Mistakes might have been made. They were not significant.” The impersonal subjunctive mode.

    You’re following the Bush supporter party line, word for word. First denial that Bush had any power — Bush’s refusal to respond to Katrina wasn’t a sign of indifference to suffering combined with gross incompetence, it was “a systemic problem” — and next, remove the president entirely from the situation: “mistakes might have been made.”

    Why don’t you just use the Nuremberg defense and get it over with? “The traitors Obama ordered killed were dirty filthy Jews suspected enemy combatants and if they were children, so much the better to kill those rat-faced untermenschen suspected insurgents rather than let them grow up to kill the beloved Aryan American sons and daughters of the Fatherland Homeland.”

  81. 81
    Lee says:

    Same shit, different millenium.

    Back in the mid-80s the exact same thing happened to my dad.

    Employees filed suit, I don’t think it made it past the first day in court.

  82. 82
    Paul says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Oh, the familiar, plaintive warble of the Obot war cry: “No we can’t!” Before the election: “WE HAVE TO RE ELECT PBO OR THE COUNTRY WILL BE DESTROYED. IT MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE TO THE SURVIVAL OF OUR NATION!” After the election: “THE PRESIDENT IS NOT A DICTATOR! HE CAN’T DO ANYTHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING! SHUT UP!

    You are exactly right. I couldn’t agree more. It would be far better with two more USSC judges like the liberal Roberts and Alito compared to the DINO’s Sotomayor and Kagan.

    In 2014, don’t you think we should once again teach Obama a lesson and stay home like we did in 2010. It worked so damn well the last time…

  83. 83
    Ben Franklin says:

    When the President does it, it’s not illegal

    RMN

  84. 84
    mclaren says:

    @Publius39:

    Not it’s not, there’s no false equivalence here at all. He’s making an excellent point. Before the election we’re told that the only hope for keeping the forces of Republican conservative destruction at bay is Mr. Hope and Change, Barack Obama, who is able to leap tall buildings in a single bound and change the course of mighty rivers.

    Then, after the election, when Obama colludes to perpetuate exactly the same evil destructive policies as the guy he ran against, we’re told that Obama had no choice because “it’s a systemic problem.”

    There’s no false equivalence there at all. It’s a simple matter of failed logic and gross self-contradiction destroying your argument.

    Either the president of the United States has real power and can make a difference, or “it’s a systemic” problem and the president is helpless to do anything about it.

    It can be one or the other. But it can’t be both.

    You obots are trying to have it both ways, and that’s logically impossible. Your argument doesn’t even make sense. The problem isn’t just that you’re lying to us, it’s that you’re trying to tell a lie so stupid (“Barack Obama is our best hope to stave off the Republicans in this election cycle but he can’t do anything once we elect him because it’s a systemic problem”) that it doesn’t even pass the straight-face test.

  85. 85
    Ben Franklin says:

    @mclaren:

    This…to the tenth power. You can’t have it BOTH ways...

  86. 86
    Baron Jrod of Keeblershire says:

    @mclaren: Are you suggesting that if we could just get rid of Obama, the problems would be solved? No? Well gee, I guess it’s a systematic problem then, isn’t it?

    Why don’t you fuckers ever have solutions? Just endless moaning about how horrible and evil Obama is. YAWN

  87. 87
    The Institute For A Meaningful Apocalypse says:

    @mclaren:

    So sad. sir mclaren was once one of our star pupils. Now he thinks he’s convinced of being Sherlock Holmes warning they might be giants.

  88. 88
    Ben Franklin says:

    @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:

    Uhhh. because he’s a GIANT FUCKING DISAPPOINTMENT ?

    Lincoln, he isn’t…

  89. 89
    The Sheriff's A Ni- says:

    @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:

    Why don’t you fuckers ever have solutions?

    Because that would require hard work and effort, and firebaggers are about as adverse to that as their fellow traveler McMegan.

  90. 90
    Maude says:

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
    And it’s no fun to stop complaining.

  91. 91
    NR says:

    @Paul:

    In 2014, don’t you think we should once again teach Obama a lesson and stay home like we did in 2010. It worked so damn well the last time…

    “We” didn’t stay home in 2010. Liberals and Democrats didn’t stay home in 2010. This is a lie that’s been debunked over and over and over again. Stop telling it.

  92. 92
    mclaren says:

    @Paul:

    In 2014, don’t you think we should once again teach Obama a lesson and stay home like we did in 2010. It worked so damn well the last time…

    This is the logical fallacy of the excluded middle. The obots love this one. “Either we support Barack Obama, or we abstain from voting and the conservatives win and destroy us all.”

    What’s missing from this failed and faulty argument is the in-between options. Our options are not just one wild extreme (support everything Obama does including his gross war crimes and betrayals and trashing of the constitution), or the other wild extreme (we abandon politics entirely and sit home drinking while watching reruns of The Beverly Hillbillies)…we have a vast range of options in between these two wild extremes.

    How about:

    [1] A mass general strike to shut the country down unless Obama stops the drone strikes and illegal assassination of U.S. citizens and the failed Drug War and medicare cuts and increased Pentagon funding and cutbacks on social programs and panopticon surveillance and the union-busting?

    [2] Massive pressure from liberal essayists and op-ed writers pointing out that Obama is violating the constitution and that, as a professor of constitutional law, this situation is bizarre and unacceptable?

    [3] Liberal senators put a hold on all pending legislation unless Obama stops the drone strikes and illegal assassination of U.S. citizens and the failed Drug War and medicare cuts and increased Pentagon funding and cutbacks on social programs and panopticon surveillance and the union-busting?

    [4] Voters call in and light up the switchboards of congress with millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions uponmillions upon millions upon millions upon millions uponmillions upon millions upon millions upon millions uponmillions upon millions upon millions upon millions uponmillions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of phone calls and letters protesting the drone strikes and illegal assassination of U.S. citizens and the failed Drug War and medicare cuts and increased Pentagon funding and cutbacks on social programs and panopticon surveillance and the union-busting?

  93. 93
    Paul says:

    @mclaren:

    Well, if this is how you feel, then why don’t you call for a general strike? Or why didn’t you primary Obama since you obviously hate him so much?

    It is pretty obvious that the answer is that very few people in our country, let alone in the Democratic party, agrees with you.

  94. 94
    Suffern ACE says:

    Psew. Those Twinkie executives sure dogged a bullet. Looting the company and its pension plan and now they are in bankruptcy court that said it was legal. Thankfully, we’re on the case making certain that Obama gets the heat for the looting taking place in the private sector so we can club him over the head about drones and assassinations.

  95. 95
    Baron Jrod of Keeblershire says:

    @mclaren: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHAHHAHAHAHA etc.

    You forgot some options.

    [5] Rub old Persian lamps until a djinni pops out of one. Use wishes to rid the world of evil.

    [6] Gets millions and millions and millions and billions and zillions and jillions of Americans to give a shit about anything except their credit card balance and the TV schedule.

    [7] Write breathless messages on websites full of people who will only mock you for the rest of fucking time.

    Anyway, you don’t need Obama’s permission to do any of this fantasy shit, so why don’t you get started?

  96. 96
    Seanly says:

    @mclaren:

    Going to egg you on by asking if you voted for the Care Bears for President. Maybe Barack Obama isn’t the problem – maybe the problem is all of us. Too many years of allowing our military & police to intertwine, too many years of allowing the 1% to control more & more while fighting amongst ourselves over the scraps they deign we can have.

    I’m not proud that we’ve killed so many people with drones. But I’m not some super-enlightened being where I truly care about it. I worry about if the Republicans are going to continue crushing the economy. I worry about having a job, having health coverage and paying my bills. I worry about having a President who’ll put more rightwing loons on the Supreme Court or one who won’t.

  97. 97
    ruemara says:

    @mclaren: Dear person with inadequate reading comprehension. At no point was I even responding to your post, nor was I talking about whatever that word waterfall you posted was about. Good luck with things.

  98. 98
    NR says:

    @Seanly:

    Maybe Barack Obama isn’t the problem – maybe the problem is all of us.

    The problem isn’t us. We voted for someone who promised change.

  99. 99
    Paul says:

    @NR:

    “We” didn’t stay home in 2010. Liberals and Democrats didn’t stay home in 2010. This is a lie that’s been debunked over and over and over again. Stop telling it.

    Yes, it may have been debunked on dailykos, which is funny considering diary after diary asked people not to vote. Yes, liberals stayed home in 2010. Just like angry Republicans stayed home in 2006.

    Yes, you can claim it is always like that in off-year elections for the incumbent party. But liberals that don’t vote just because it is not a presidential year have only one person to blame. Themselves!

  100. 100
    Paul says:

    @NR:

    The problem isn’t us. We voted for someone who promised change.

    Could you please provide a link to where candidate Obama promised us that he would change the world in less than 2 years? Because after 2 years, people like you had already given up as reflected in the 2010 election. It is pretty damned impossible to change things without enough voted in Congress.

    So yes, indeed the problem us, not President Obama. Hell, can you name ANY politician that you have been happy with? ANY?

  101. 101
    mclaren says:

    @Paul:

    It is pretty obvious that the answer is that very few people in our country, let alone in the Democratic party, agrees with you.

    LOL.

    Ever hear of the Occupy movement, buckaroo?

  102. 102
    Paul says:

    @mclaren:

    Yes, whatever happened to them? They never managed to do what the teabaggers did, ie take over their party. If Occupy was so powerful, couldn’t they help you with your 4 demands?

  103. 103
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-:

    Why don’t you fuckers ever have solutions?

    Again with this, another plaintive Obot cry.

    Obama won the presidency, for which he sought election as I recall. Finding and applying solutions and doing the hard work are HIS job. I already have one, thanks.

    Perhaps he can find time between vacation trips to Hawaii and fundraisers among the one percent in Chicago, to phone the AG.

  104. 104
    debbie says:

    I remember when Robert Maxwell got caught stealing from his British employees’ pension funds so he could purchase Macmillan Publishing. At least he had the decency to go drown himself.

  105. 105
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @NR:

    The problem isn’t us. We voted for someone who promised change.

    But the republicans are mean. And change is hard, just like presidentin’.

  106. 106
    mclaren says:

    @Paul:

    Yes, whatever happened to them?

    Obama unleashed the DHS and sold military weaponry to local police departments around the country to crush the Occupy movement, that’s what happened to them.

    Mr. Hope and Change set riot-armored goons loose to beat up 19-year-old unemployed kids who were demonstrating against the looting of America by Wall Street financial crime lords…that’s what happened to them.

    Keep it up. You’re undercutting your own argument here. If I were an Obot, I would not be preening and gloating about Obama’s shameful behavior toward the non-violent demonstrators who demanded economic justice.

  107. 107
    mclaren says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    But don’t you know, Ted & Hellen? Obama never “promised to change the whole world in 2 years.”

    Yes indeedy, all those slogans about “YES WE CAN!” and HOPE AND CHANGE…those were all just optical illusions. We just imagined them.

    Wow, the obots are getting really desperate. First, they tell us Obama is just a helpless impotent insect (who happens to be the most powerful man on earth), now they’re trying to tell us Obama never promised hope & change.

    Next, they’ll tell us Barack Obama doesn’t exist. “Who? I’ve never heard of anyone by that name. You’re delusional. Nobody named `Barack’ could ever be elected president in America!”

    The obots are just disappearing into their rabbit hole of private unreality, exactly like the Bush supporters who now claim Obama created the 2008 financial crisis and we won the Iraq war and found WMDs there.

  108. 108
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @RareSanity:

    You try that same shit while wearing jeans and tennis shoes and a hoodie, your ass is going to get a Second Amendment remedy jail.

  109. 109
    Baron Jrod of Keeblershire says:

    @NR:

    The problem isn’t us. We voted for someone who promised change.

    And then immediately started whining that things weren’t perfect yet and you were betrayed because Obama didn’t single-handedly put a stop to America’s fascist streak. The fascist streak that goes back at least to World War II. The fascist streak that’s favored by a very large minority of the country. A large minority which actually votes.

    Oh, but you voted. Job fucking done then, isn’t it.

  110. 110
    Original Lee says:

    @Comrade Dread: IIRC from the few news reports I’ve seen, the UK has superior jurisdiction for most of the money-laundering charges and is in the process of taking HSBC to court.

  111. 111
    Baron Jrod of Keeblershire says:

    @mclaren: Obama didn’t remake the United States as a pacifist socialist utopia in two years! And all he had to do was overcome the vastly powerful vested interests with their hooks into every major economic force and media outlet, as well as an opposition party using scorched earth tactics to oppose every single thing he attempted, and do it without any sort of support from the left! Obviously since he didn’t do this WE WERE BETRAYED OOOOHAOOOOHAAOOOOO

    Good fucking lord you’re an ass.

  112. 112
    mclaren says:

    @Paul:

    I’ll name a bunch of pols I’ve been pretty happy with. Bill Clinton was a pretty damn good president. He wasn’t perfect, but I don’t have much to complain about. Yes, he started our shameful policy of extraordinary rendition, and, yes, Clinton tried to ram through that crazy Clipper Chip bullshit, and, yes, Clinton signed off on the repeal of the Glass Steagall Act. Those were bad decisions.

    Other than that, though, Clinton did an excellent job. Like Obama, Clinton ran a squeaky clean administration. Zero corruption. Incidentally, Barack Obama never gets any love for his corruption-free highly efficient administration, but he deserves a lot of credit for that. Especially after the orgies of thievery and looting misnamed the Reagan administration and the George W. Bush administration. Those weren’t presidencies, they were smash-and-grab capers with some electoral politics added to try to legitimize the process of breaking & entering.

    Or how about Dwight Eisenhower? Not much to complain about in his two terms. Harry Truman did a damn good job too. Don’t bitch about Truman’s decision to drop two A-bombs on Japan, because the Japanese had every chance to surrender. That was total war. I have zero sympathy for the Japanese, especially after the Bataan Death March and the unspeakable Rape of Nanking.

    George H. W. Bush did a damned good job as president, I thought. Jimmy Carter did an excellent job. Congress stymied him by rejecting his energy plan, but that wasn’t his fault. He also had really really bad luck with the Iran hostage rescue mission. If things had gone the other way, Carter would’ve gotten a second term and history would be very different.

    No, the only really bad presidents I can think of since the 1930s were: Hoover (obviously), that fucker JFK who got us into Vietnam and almost blew up the wold by installed medium range ballistic missiles in Turkey, which made the Russians try to put missiles in Cuba; and LBJ, who ramped up the Vietnam War and refused to end it; Nixon, for obvious reasons, as a corrupt scumbag and thief; Reagan, for obvious reasons; and the drunk-driving C student with his torturer sidekick. Obama has had a mixed record. Excellent on the economy and soft social issues like gay marriage, but an insane disastrous foreign policy of endless unwinnable pointless wars and the man has torn up the constitution and wiped his ass with it. Plus, he folds like a cheap suit whenever the Republicans push him.

    So since the 1930s the only really bad presidents have been Hoover, JFK, LBJ, Reagan and Dubya. The rest are either pretty good or mixed — Obama so far has a mixed record. If he hangs tough (which he won’t) on the debt ceiling and refuses to gut social programs, Obama could save his rep and become one of the better presidents. Time will tell.

  113. 113
    Pinkamena Panic says:

    COLE.

    BAN THE TROLLS.

    NOW!

  114. 114
    mclaren says:

    @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:

    Once again the absurd and ridiculous fallacy of the argument by extremes. No one has claimed or asked that Obama remake America as a socialist utopia, let alone within 2 years.

    What many many people have claimed is that Barack Obama ran on hope and change, specifically campaigning against a whole raft of evil Bush policies such as rigged military commission trials at Gitmo so grossly unjust that Bush’s lead military proecutor resigned in protest; the endless unwinnable pointless war in Afghanistan; military black ops assassinations of innocent civilians; murderous drone attacks against women and children; a GET OUT OF JAIL FREE card for the Wall Street financial crime lords; grotesque tax cuts for billionaires who during the past 4 years have grabbed 93% of the gains due to growth in the American economy; massive government surveillance of innocent people for no reason contrary to the constitution and without a warrant or due process or even probable cause; and intensive ongoing government brutalization of non-violent protesters as a means of illegally stifling dissent in violation of the first amendment.

    All of these evil Bush policies are policies that Obama ran against, and then made worse.

    That’s what I object to. I’m not asking for a social utopia.

    I’m asking for Obama to order the goddamn DOJ to start indicting some of the Wall Street financial crime lords who crashed the U.S. economy in 2008. Not all of them; just some of them. At least put one of those fuckers in prison. At least one. That’s what I’m asking.

    Obama won’t do it.

    I’m asking for Obama to recognize reality and get the hell out of Afghanistan. Every military-strategic expert who studies the situation admits we’ve lost that war. Time to get the hell out.

    Obama won’t do it.

    I’m asking for Obama to stop selling military weapons and loaning DHS goons to local police department so they can crack down on non-violent dissent. It’s contrary to the first amdnement of the constitution.

    Obama won’t do that.

    I’m asking for Obama to stop the insane murderous drone attacks on women and children, I’m asking for Obama to shut down the black ops military assassinations that are grossly illegal as well as totally immoral, I’m asking for Obama to end the global surveillance of everybody’s phone calls and emails because it’s insane and pointless since every American citizen can’t possibly be a terrorist.

    I’m asking for Obama to show some balls and hang tough against the Republicans in the debt ceiling hostage bullshit and the fiscal cliff.

    That’s what I’m asking for.

    How did that ever get twisted into “a socialist utopia”? Stop murdering women and children in Pakistan for no reason? That’s your idea of a “socialist utopia”? Put a dozen Wall Street criminals in prison? That’s what you call a “socialist utopia”?

    Well, fuck me, because that must mean that America in the 1930s and 1940ws and 1950s and 1960s was a socialist utopia, because back then, when you committed criminal fraud on Wall Street, you went to jail.

    Seriously. You’re standing there and your mouth is open and words are coming out. For you, that is never good.

    Best to cut your losses. Sit down, shut up, pretend you never said anything. You’re just embarrassing yourself.

  115. 115
    Ben Franklin says:

    @mclaren:


    Harry Truman did a damn good job too. Don’t bitch about Truman’s decision to drop two A-bombs on Japan

    Huh? He laid the foundation of our current troubles

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N.....ct_of_1947

  116. 116
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    It’s really sad that you suffer from an inability to use the Google. Maybe you should consult a doctor about that, because it’s really affecting your day-to-day ability to not look like a fucking idiot.

  117. 117
    The Sheriff's A Ni- says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Obama won the presidency, for which he sought election as I recall. Finding and applying solutions and doing the hard work are HIS job.

    Yep, Daddy Obama has to hold down a real job while Timmeh and the Firebaggers throw a raging tantrum under the Christmas tree because he didn’t get them the Red Turbo Man. Sounds about right.

  118. 118
    Original Lee says:

    @debbie: No shit. I was a Macmillan employee, and am the proud owner of The Robert Maxwell Joke Book, which the U.S. employees bought from the U.K. employees to help them try to get some of their money back.

  119. 119
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Pinkamena Panic:

    COLE.
    BAN THE TROLLS.
    NOW

    I’m sure he’ll get right on that.

    Especially since, you know, you put it in all caps.

    Hey, just a thought, but why don’t you use that pie filter thingie? I understand it’s useful for folks like you whose fee fees are of a delicate nature.

  120. 120
    The prophet Nostradumbass says:

    I see that the Mother Superior of the Sisters of Perpetual Outrage has returned.

  121. 121
    General Stuck says:

    Another thread kilt by trolls. RIP

  122. 122
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @General Stuck:

    Another thread kilt by trolls. RIP

    I’ve never really gotten this, General.

    Could you explain to me in what way the thread has been “kilt?”

  123. 123
    Mister Harvest says:

    @mclaren:

    I have zero sympathy for the Japanese, especially after the Bataan Death March and the unspeakable Rape of Nanking.

    Collective punishment, a game everyone can play.

  124. 124
    Baron Jrod of Keeblershire says:

    @mclaren: Yes, you are spouting utopian nonsense. You want that shit done, I can promise you that your 3000-word screeds in these comments are doing exactly nothing to accomplish it. The idea that any of that shit is as simple as “Preznit snaps fingers and it’s done” is ridiculous and stupid.

    What the fuck ever. You demonstrate time and time again that you have no interest in the difficult, grueling, and never-ending work that is required to get even a part of what you claim to desire. You’re either a lazy fucking bum, or what you actually desire is to puff your chest out and strut because you’re the purest leftie. If that’s your goal, well I guess mission accomplished. But don’t plow in here and start berating everyone who voted Obama because their actions haven’t fixed everything, because neither have yours, dipshit.

    Again, you idiots have a plan, as in a plan that is actually feasible to accomplish in this universe, let’s hear it. Otherwise fuck off.

  125. 125
    Mister Harvest says:

    @mclaren:

    I’m asking for Obama to stop the insane murderous drone attacks on women and children,

    The Taliban can surrender any time they want. We should probably just nuke Helmand and be done with it.

  126. 126
    Mister Harvest says:

    @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Well, Lord Keeblershire, to work is to risk failure. To whine, however, is a guarantee of success.

  127. 127
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:

    You demonstrate time and time again that you have no interest in the difficult, grueling, and never-ending work that is required to get even a part of what you claim to desire.

    Your feeling is that the general populace should spend their working lives doing the work they have selected elected representatives to accomplish? Weird.

    Then what are the elected representatives for? And who does OUR jobs while we’re doing theirs?

    I take it you agree with and condone the Bush Boy’s complaint that “Presidentin’s hard work.” Do you recommend that PBO repeat that to a press conference or in a speech? Perhaps then everyone would understand and no one would expect much out of him, as you seem to prefer.

    Weird.

  128. 128
    TenguPhule says:

    I have zero sympathy for the Japanese, especially after the Bataan Death March and the unspeakable Rape of Nanking.

    Yeah yeah, fuck you too for the goddamn concentration camps for AMERICAN CITIZENS based on nationality when they fought and died for your ungrateful ass.

  129. 129
    Todd says:

    Its not legal but they get away with it primarily because the US allowed the Reagan and the Bush family to appointed most of its judges and these judges take a much more positive view of such behavior than most people would. Also, congressional Republicans created pension funds that are less protected and have blocked efforts at reform.

  130. 130
    debbie says:

    @ Original Lee:

    I worked at U.S. Macmillan he thought would make him Rupert II. Best part of his demise was learning that England actually had a Serious Fraud Office. Rather than worrying what would happen to our jobs, we used to joke about what kind of crimes the Not So Serious Fraud Office would handle.

  131. 131
    Paul says:

    @mclaren:

    Obama unleashed the DHS and sold military weaponry to local police departments around the country to crush the Occupy movement, that’s what happened to them. Mr. Hope and Change set riot-armored goons loose to beat up 19-year-old unemployed kids who were demonstrating against the looting of America by Wall Street financial crime lords…that’s what happened to them. Keep it up. You’re undercutting your own argument here. If I were an Obot, I would not be preening and gloating about Obama’s shameful behavior toward the non-violent demonstrators who demanded economic justice.

    Undercutting my own arguments? I don’t live in my own reality like you appear to do. Heck, is there any difference between you and tea baggers? You both have invented your own reality and your own facts. It is impossible to have a political discussion when one party has its own facts.

  132. 132
    NR says:

    @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Once again: It is not our job to come up with a plan to fulfill Obama’s campaign promise.

    That is Obama’s job.

    It’s pathetic that you’re sitting here trying to blame us for the fact that Obama to side with the plutocrats and the status quo. Just pathetic.

  133. 133
    Baron Jrod of Keeblershire says:

    @NR: Yeah, actually it is our job. What the fuck do you think participatory government is? We the people and all that?

    Do you honestly think that the people of the US actually have no role to play in the way our country is run besides moaning, whining, and voting every 4 years, maybe every 2 if you’re an especially hard worker?

    If so, THAT IS WHY YOU LOSE.

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