Early Morning Open Thread: Will There Be Blood?


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Rare, exciting Billmon sighting over at Daily Kos — “Will There Be Blood?“:

You may have seen the Public Policy Polling survey showing that 49% of all Republicans polled believe ACORN, an organization that hasn’t existed since 2010, stole the 2012 election for Barack Obama.

But have you thought through the mathematics of that finding, and what it might mean for the political future – and domestic tranquility – of our increasingly less-than-united United States?

According to that same PPP poll, 32% of all voters identify themselves, even now, as Republicans. Forty nine percent of 32% is 15.68%. In effect, 16% of all American voters – one in six – refuse to acknowledge that Barack Obama is the lawfully elected president of the United States.

Likewise, current grassroots GOP sentiment on the “issue” of secession. According to PPP, a quarter of all Republicans favor the idea. Twenty five percent of 32% equals 8%. So almost one in twelve American voters say they are prepared to give Ft. Sumter a do over because their candidate lost last month.

In the heartland of the original Confederacy, such views are – surprise, surprise – even more widely shared. PPP’s recent Georgia poll found Republicans in the state evenly divided on the secession question, with 42% favoring and 42% opposed (and 16% straddling the fence – or the Mason Dixon Line, so to speak).

Even more strikingly: 25% of Georgia independents, and 10% of the state’s Democrats, also say they support running down the Stars and Stripes and re-hoisting the old Stars and Bars…

(h/t commentor Magurakurin)

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118 replies
  1. 1
    Raven says:

    And they think that people who protested the Vietnam War are traitors. I think this is all just bullshit. When I was a kid we’d drive from Chicago to Florida through the south and you’d see the “Forget Hell” stickers and signs all over. IMHO it’s just so much hot air.

  2. 2
    owlbear1 says:

    Now that Jesus hasn’t shown up, like they were promised he would for their entire lives, they are pissed and blame ‘liberals’.

  3. 3
    JPL says:

    If a few southern states seceded, our medicare program would be strengthened.

  4. 4
    Raven says:

    How was the concert?

  5. 5
    PeakVT says:

    Will There Be Blood?

    Probably not. The militia movement pretty much died after the OKC bombing. We’ve only had a few scattered Christianist terrorist incidents since then. If the SCOTUS rules for gay marriage we’ll probably get a few more Christianist incidents, but not a lot.

    Billmon and the rest of us should probably worry about the continuing de-unionization of the country instead.

  6. 6
    PeakVT says:

    And, for balance, strandbeests.

  7. 7
    amk says:

    Billmon and the rest of us should probably worry about the continuing de-unionization of the country instead.

    Bingo. More insidious than a few nutjobs full of hot air.

  8. 8
    danielx says:

    If one could just move all the would-be secessionists to one location (say Texas), I’d say let them go and good riddance. Hard on the people in Austin, but they’re not considered to be real Texans anyway. Texas would instantly become a third world Galtist paradise – more so than it is now, I mean.

  9. 9
    Davis X. Machina says:

    Billmon is very active on Twitter.

    Billmon and the rest of us should probably worry about the continuing de-unionization of the country instead.

    No reason why you can’t worry about both, especially if you have to work on the latter (social justice in a changing economy) in an atmosphere shaped and poisoned by the former (domestic terrorism).

    John Brown’s Harpers Ferry raid didn’t free the slaves but it did wonders for the national political discourse at a critical moment in time

  10. 10
    Raven says:

    @Davis X. Machina: Yea and you can spend every waking moment “worrying” about all kinds of shit. If that’s how you want to spend your life jam on.

  11. 11
    danielx says:

    @amk:

    All too true – the wignut-controlled legislature in my fair state is starting right in on that effort, beginning with banning the deduction of union dues from teachers’ paychecks. They’d like to expand this to all public sector unions, but teachers will do for a start.

    Notice that the headline in the article says the state Chamber of Commerce wants this, although the head of the Chamber of Commerce really doesn’t say why this is particularly important to its membership.

    They’re not even bothering to hide it any more…

  12. 12
    c u n d gulag says:

    ACORN…
    ACORN?
    ACORN!
    ACORN?

    Really?

    Is no one paying attention to the massive influence of the SDS, The Weather Underground, The Mama’s and the Papa’s, and The Banana Splits?

    And if they wanna secede, all I can say is, “Don’t let the door hitcha, where the Mason-Dixon line splitcha!”

    After we exchange our Northern crackers for the South’s good Liberals and Progressives, we can start our next great Stimulus Package – building the border fence along the Mason-Dixon line (or whatever the new border line will be).

  13. 13
    kay says:

    @PeakVT:

    A group from here (NW OH) are going to MI statehouse Tuesday. I think it’s going to be big. I’m planning on going. If I do I’ll tell you about it.

  14. 14
    Johannes says:

    @c u n d gulag: Damn those radical Banana Splits!

  15. 15
    Linda Featheringill says:

    Blood? Nah. Not much anyway.

    Secessionists probably get a lot of psychological relief from just talking about leaving.

    Also, they have a major problem. You know all those military bases that are scattered around to help with local economies? They could also be very useful in squelching local uprisings. These bases are just full of material and weapons, as well as trained and organized personnel. Poorly organized, poorly trained civilians wouldn’t fare well in an actual battle situation.

  16. 16
    Cermet says:

    @c u n d gulag: Try to remember that Maryland (and DC) is South of the Mason-Dixon line and both FROGHT for the UNION! Virginia is now Blue and North Carolina is becoming Blue and is only barely purple. Hell, even the Cubans …I mean Florida, is now blue. It’s the deep South and can’t spell ASs-hole without TexAS which are the only loonies really ready to go full metal wing nut.

  17. 17
    NorthLeft12 says:

    I agree with most of the sentiments above. It is pretty easy to be bellicose on a poll [or over the internet] but if these guys actually had a chance at secession I believe they would go running back to the skirts of their “nanny state”.

    I also agree that the continued assault on the unions is the greatest challenge facing progressives. I still cannot get over the recent Michigan right to work effort. I live across the St. Clair River in Canada, and I can’t believe how right wing crazy they have gotten over there.

  18. 18
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @PeakVT:

    Wow! What a cool video. Those things really do look like animals, don’t they?

  19. 19
    Keith G says:

    I have occasion to interact with some rather severe Texas-style rednecks. When possible I try to quiz them on the secession issue. Not only aren’t any of them in anyway sympathetic, but a few offer that its hype is a lefty cointelpro attempt at defaming the right.

    Then there was one good ol’ boy who just shook his head with a smile and wondered in his drawl, “Don’t ya s’pose a few of those guys are jus having a bit of fun watchin liberals get all excited about the shit they tell the survey people?”

  20. 20
    Baud says:

    No war was fought–much less won–by 50-plus year olds in hoverounds. I think we’re ok.

  21. 21
    Jeff Spender says:

    @NorthLeft12:

    Yeah, I think the parts of Michigan that resemble Alabama have more political power because of the loss of population in the urban centers.

    Michigan’s population has been steadily decreasing, and I can’t say that I really blame people for leaving. If the rest of the batshit agenda goes through, I’m going to have to wave goodbye to my home state and go somewhere more sane.

  22. 22
    MikeJ says:

    I have no fear of secessionists. I live at the top of a gentle slope. They’d never make it up the driveway.

  23. 23
    JGabriel says:

    __
    __
    NYT, Same-Sex Issue Pushes Justices Into Overdrive:

    The speed with which the court is moving has some gay rights advocates bracing for a split decision. The court could strike down the federal law, the Defense of Marriage Act, saying that the meaning of marriage is a matter for the states to decide. At the same time, it could reject the idea that the Constitution requires states to allow same-sex marriage, saying that the meaning of marriage is a matter for the states to decide. …
    __
    It is entirely possible, then, that the votes to grant review in the California case came from the court’s more conservative justices. They may have calculated that they had a shot at capturing the decisive vote of the member of the court at its ideological center, Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, at least in the California case.

    Does anyone else think the conservatives hope that Kennedy will lean their way is a little suspect?

    I mean, Kennedy’s vote was the swing vote that banned laws against consenual sodomy. It just seems weird to me that the conservative half of the bench thinks Kennedy would vote in a manner that says, “The butt-fucking is okay, but no marriage. You can only have pre-marital sex.”

    Is that scenario really likely? Aren’t consevatives nominally all about sex only happening within the bounds of marriage?

    .

  24. 24
    c u n d gulag says:

    @Cermet:
    And that is why I specifically said, ‘or whatever the new border line will be.’

    If that border along the East Coast is SC, then so be it.

  25. 25
    WereBear says:

    The secessionist talk is just blowing off steam. But then, I can’t believe they can simultaneously crow over destroying ACORN and also believe it stole the recent election for President Obama.

    I keep coming back to one indelible conclusion: these people are insane. No wonder they are so against mental health initiatives.

  26. 26
    JGabriel says:

    __
    __
    Linda Featheringill:

    Poorly organized, poorly trained civilians wouldn’t fare well in an actual battle situation.

    B-b-b-but … Wolverines!

    .

  27. 27
    balconesfault says:

    That math only works if you don’t believe that there are independents who also believe ACORN stole the election for Obama … or that there are Republicans who think Obama stole the election by some other means than ACORN.

    I’ll bet that the statement “16% of all American voters – one in six – refuse to acknowledge that Barack Obama is the lawfully elected president of the United States.” … is well short of the mark.

    I’ll bet the real number is … 27%.

  28. 28
    MattF says:

    First, as much as wingers hate liberals and blahs, they love power more. And being the supreme leader of South NorthWestern Nutjobistan is just not real impressive, no matter how you put it. Second, trying persuade your enemies that you’re a lunatic is a standard winger negotiating tactic– see, e.g., Nixon vs. North Vietnam, Reagan vs. Iran.

  29. 29
    JGabriel says:

    He’p, he’p, I been modereratered!

    (No idea why. I didn’t use any bad words that I know of.)

    .

  30. 30
    gnomedad says:

    A lot of these people would affirm that Obama has tentacles, if polled.

  31. 31
    Baud says:

    @JGabriel:

    It won’t be about sexual morality. It’ll be about what will be the instrument of social change — the courts, Congress, or the states. Conservatives hope Kennedy sides with them on “states rights.”

    And the reason for moving quickly, if you’re conservative, is that the tide is turning quickly on gay rights. It’ll be much easier to issue an anti-gay rights ruling now than it will be 5 or 10 years from now.

  32. 32
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    @Cermet:

    Virginia Northern Virginia is now Blue …

    Don’t mistake the percentage of total state vote for Obama as indicative of the sentiment of the entire state. There’s a metric shit-ton of dumbfucks in both Va. and NC. who don’t live in the urban areas. Also, look at the statehouses rather than talk about them being blue.

  33. 33
    Josie says:

    Oh, great – another post which gives the Texas haters another chance to cheer for splitting the state off from the rest of the U.S., based the ravings of a small percentage of crazies who happen to live here. I have a bulletin for you. Texas is not the only state to vote red at this point, nor is it the only residence for crazies. Liberals’ time would be better spent figuring out how to organize the myriads of possible Democratic voters here in order to turn the state purple and then blue. Texas Democratic Chairman Gilberto Hinojosa is working on that and could use some help.

  34. 34
    Schlemizel says:

    @Cermet:

    even during the original Civil War the nation was not as simply divided as North/South. There were plenty of slavers up North & lots of pro Union people in the South. A couple of states had to pull a fast one t sneak secession past the majority, but they had the money & the power on their side to pull it off.

  35. 35
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @c u n d gulag: I never trusted that Snork – he was too sneaky

    I loved the theme song for that show

  36. 36
    Cassidy says:

    @Josie:

    based the ravings of a small percentage of crazies who happen to live here.

    Yeah. Small percentage.

  37. 37
    Ash Can says:

    There will probably be as much blood as a few lone wackos acting by themselves and obviously disturbed and not in any way provoked by anything anyone on the right ever saId. But we won’t be able to prevent it, because we can’t take the Second Amendment rights away from the shooters or the First Amendment rights away from the people who urge them to kill their fellow citizens. It’s the price to be paid for living in America; just hope you’re not one of the people who happens to be standing in the way at the time.

  38. 38
    raven says:

    @Josie: So what? They whine and bitch about Georgia here all the time. Don’t mean shit.

  39. 39
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    I wish Cokie Roberts would just retire, already.

  40. 40
    RoonieRoo says:

    @WereBear: That is where I’ve landed too. I’m realizing that this particular group of people are, in fact, insane.

  41. 41
    Ash Can says:

    @Josie: Well said. And I for one wouldn’t be surprised to see Texas become a blue state within the next 20 years, especially if the GOP continues in its batshit ways.

  42. 42
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: I don’t think anyone in punditry ever retires. cf., David Broder.

  43. 43
    Schlemizel says:

    @Josie:

    Don’t feel bad, its not just that shit hole that the civilized parts of the nation would happily surrender, you’d have plenty of company.

    Last I checked Texas as well as most of that region are totally dominated by todays GOP, a combination of Randian loonies and diehard Confederate fetishists.

    Its a disease on the body politic. To say that not every cell of the thing is diseased is small comfort when the disease is killing us. That the diseased part wants to amputate itself is not just hilarious it provides a happy image of how much better we would be without it.

    Please don’t ask us not to point and laugh at this sort of talk, its all it deserves.

  44. 44
    Schlemizel says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    More than that I wish she would retire & all her investments would turn to shit so she had to rely on her Social Security check & Medicare exclusively. It might help her gain prospective

  45. 45
    different-church-lady says:

    Roughly one out of one people in this country, when frustrated, say shit they don’t even remotely mean.

  46. 46
    raven says:

    @Schlemizel: What are the prospects of that?

  47. 47
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    @Schlemizel: I often wonder if any of these pundits have *ever* lived paycheck to paycheck, and, if so, what caused them to forget what that was like?

    ETA: By that, I mean that most of them are the children of families of privilege. Are there any who weren’t born on at least second base?

  48. 48
    jurassicpork says:

    A major family emergency has cropped up, just in time for the holidays. Details are here.

  49. 49
    Maude says:

    @arguingwithsignposts:
    I can’t think of one. It does explain why they believe that they are so special and smart. They earn a lot of money for doing very little.

  50. 50
    Maude says:

    @jurassicpork:
    You got $250.00 from John once, because you fooled him.
    Go away.

  51. 51
  52. 52
    NonyNony says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Roughly one out of one people in this country, when frustrated, say shit they don’t even remotely mean.

    Ayup. And with liberals it’s fantasies about moving to Canada or Europe while with conservatives it’s fantasies about secession.

    How many liberals actually picked up and moved to Canada after Bush’s second election? That’s how many conservatives I’d expect are starting to make real plans for secession.

  53. 53
    Michael says:

    I’m about to take a 24-hour takehome exam of the law and policy and Guantanamo Bay. Wish me luck!

  54. 54
    greennotGreen says:

    I’m really getting tired of progressives who don’t live in red states saying they’d be happy to lop us off to better the rest of the country.

    When the voters of this nation decided in 2004 to re-install G.W.Bush after the sterling job he’d done half-destroying the U.S., I was really considering moving to Canada. But I decided that my job as a person who loves my country was to stay here and fight (politically) for a saner direction. And, no matter what differences other progressives and I may have with President Obama, I have no doubt that he has been much better for the nation than Bob Dole or Mitt Romney would have been.

    So, I challenge progressives in the blue states to quit offering to throw us in the life boats and set us adrift. Instead, help us organize and work to shift our backward states toward the blue. There is admittedly a long way to go.

  55. 55
    GregB says:

    Battalions full of 60,70, and 80 year old well armed militants don’t really scare me.

    Distract them with some butterscotch pudding and hit their Lark scooters with an electro magnetic pulse and the war would be over without a shot.

  56. 56

    @GregB:
    Pretty sure we don’t have controllable electro magnetic pulse weapons. However, thick gravel is an effective low-cost, low-tech solution to block them inside their houses.

  57. 57
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    @jurassicpork: every fucking time.

  58. 58
    Lojasmo says:

    @Maude:

    I almost donated, but then remembered that he’s that concen trolling ass-clown.

  59. 59
    Schlemizel says:

    @NonyNony:

    How many liberals blew up a Federal court house? How many liberals bomb anti-abortion clinics? How many liberals shot up churches for being too conservative? How many liberals shot Jewish kids on the streets of LA on their way to shul? How many liberals shot up the White House? How many crashed a small plane on the WH grounds?

    Yeah, both side do it, right?

  60. 60
    Anya says:

    @JGabriel: I am a bit worried about this. Justice Kennedy didn’t exactly cover himself with glory in his last ruling. If reports are correct, he allied himself with the lunatics in the court and acted really weird by attacking Justice Roberts. I hope he’s not one of those people who became completely insane after Obama’s election. It’s beyond my comprehension how DOMA does not violate the Equal Protection clause, but I am not a legal expert. Anyway, let’s hope for the best.

  61. 61
    The Republic of Stupidity says:

    @JPL:

    I

    f a few southern states seceded, our medicare program would be strengthened.

    Hell… our entire gene pool would better off…

    Someone needs to draw these silly prats a map…

    Hey boys… the librarian paradises of Somalia and Afghanistan are thataway… you can own all the farkin’ guns you want and you’ll never hafta pay for a liberry you clearly never use anyways…

  62. 62
    Hoodie says:

    Answers to those kind of poll questions should be taken with a grain of salt. My recollection from growing up in GA is that these sentiments have always been around and they’re kind of a tribal narrative of powerlessness and loss of control for the subpopulation involved. Most are near the die off age or else will get over it when they realize that life goes on. More visible these days with Metrosexual Black Abe Lincoln in office and the sting of an election in which other groups exhibited the ability to influence power, but the core numbers Billmon cites have probably not changed that much. There are more important things to worry about.

  63. 63
    Schlemizel says:

    @greennotGreen:

    I’m sorry for you, really I am. I used to live in a place like that until I found a job outside a red state.

    Yes, we all need to work hard to try and bend them back to civilized society but until a substantial number of their citizens show a desire to willingly join civilized society but instead insist that they would be better off with out us I think we don’t have much choice.

    If for no other reason than it indicates our willingness to wave bye-bye. Hopefully that will cause the least irrational of their numbers to question why we would be so happy to let them go. FOr some that might be the first step on the road to recovery.

    Humoring them has done us no good so I’m OK if we humor ourselves instead

  64. 64
    Karmus says:

    @Michael: Good luck.

  65. 65
    Schlemizel says:

    @greennotGreen:

    I’m sorry for you, really I am. I used to live in a place like that until I found a job outside a red state.

    Yes, we all need to work hard to try and bend them back to civilized society but until a substantial number of their citizens show a desire to willingly join civilized society but instead insist that they would be better off with out us I think we don’t have much choice.

    If for no other reason than it indicates our willingness to wave bye-bye. Hopefully that will cause the least irrational of their numbers to question why we would be so happy to let them go. FOr some that might be the first step on the road to recovery.

    Humoring them has done us no good so I’m OK if we humor ourselves instead

  66. 66
    Karmus says:

    @Michael: Good luck.

  67. 67
    greennotGreen says:

    @The Republic of Stupidity: the librarian paradises of Somalia and Afghanistan are thataway

    Those countries have the best libraries? I’m surprised.

  68. 68
    Karmus says:

    @Michael: Good luck!

    Ed:FYWP

  69. 69
    Schlemizel says:

    FP eated my post & I thoughtlessly hit ‘retry’ before realizing that will probably cause a double post.

    ANybody know why that happens – the eating part that is. I don’t comment on a lot of blogs but this is the only one I see that has this happen. Any programer types that can identify what sort of magic is not happening?

  70. 70
    Full Metal Wingnut says:

    @Baud: Kennedy could basically copy paste his Romer opinion for DOMA. If he doesn’t or goes the other way, it’ll be purely ideological.

    Keep in mind, even with his two gay friendly opinions, keep in mind that Kennedy WROTE the majority opinion in Citizens United, and was also on the wrong side of Bush v Gore and the recent Obamacare case. He has some great opinions (read Lawrence v Texas) and he’s also inexcusably gone over to the dark side.

  71. 71
    Full Metal Wingnut says:

    Even so, never forget that we could’ve had Bork.

  72. 72
    handsmile says:

    On the question of “Will there be blood?,” I find it useful every so often to check out the updates on the “Insurrection TImeline” maintained by the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence. It chronicles, via summaries and excellent links, nation-wide incidents of insurrection-oriented violence or its advocacy.

    The timeline begins with the 2008 Supreme Court decision (District of Columbia v. Heller) that held, for the first time, that the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to keep and bear arms. Its most recent entry is Donald Trump’s tweets on election night, among which his exhortation, “We should have a revolution in this country.”

    http://www.csgv.org/issues-and.....n-timeline

    Also on the subject, the Southern Poverty Law Center’s “Hate and Extremism” website is an invaluable resource.

    http://www.splcenter.org/what-.....-extremism

    i wish I could share PeakVT’s appraisal (#5) of the terminal condition of militia movements in the United States.

  73. 73
    greennotGreen says:

    @greennotGreen: I tried to edit the bold into a block quote, but FYWP, I guess.

  74. 74
    Grumpy Code Monkey says:

    @Josie:

    Liberals’ time would be better spent figuring out how to organize the myriads of possible Democratic voters here in order to turn the state purple and then blue. Texas Democratic Chairman Gilberto Hinojosa is working on that and could use some help.

    DING DING DING DING FUCKING DING

    Texas isn’t monolithically red (the Valley and the urban areas around Austin, San Antonio, Houston, and even Dallas are pretty blue), but thanks to Republican gerrymandering Democratic voting blocs have been split and diluted (metro Austin is split between something like 5 Congressional districts).

    Despite what assholes like Schlemizel think, Texas isn’t a lost cause, but we do need outside help.

  75. 75
    Cassidy says:

    @greennotGreen: I’m tired of the sizable populations of Texas voting in conservatives who flirt with secessionist speak, fuck up our school systems with their jeebus thumping textbooks, and all around jackassery.

    Everytime these whiny ass conservative Texans don’t get exactly what they want, they start crying about secession and whatnot. Honestly, it’s fucking tiresome. So, if we can carve that little slice of shit off the country and offer it up to all these asshats, you would be welcome to come over the border to the US. There will be plenty of empty homes to choose from.

  76. 76
    Citizen_X says:

    @Schlemizel:

    Texas as well as most of that region are totally dominated by todays GOP

    A result of gerrymandering, not the popular will. Has everyone forgotten Tom DeLay already?

  77. 77
    greennotGreen says:

    @Cassidy: I’m not in Texas, I’m in Tennessee where, apparently, you have to fail an IQ test to be in the state legislature. And Grumpy Code Monkey at 76 is right – gerrymandering is the root of much of our current evil, although massive ignorance and racism certainly don’t help.

  78. 78
    Woodrowfan says:

    @Schlemizel: well, you do have ELF, which occasionally burns down buildings under construction or auto dealers. but yeah, it’s like looking at a person with a mild sniffle and another with Ebola and saying “well they’re both sick!”

  79. 79
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Citizen_X: I find it hard to believe that governor Goodhair would be in any danger of losing were he standing for reelection today.

  80. 80
    Schlemizel says:

    @Grumpy Code Monkey:

    Yes, I am an asshole, it true.

    Now please elect a Dem Governor or have the gerrymandered that into impossibility also?

    We have a sizable wingnut coalition here too, witness Batshit Bachmann. If they were to take control of the entire state and be the dominant voice I’d speak of this state exactly as I speak of shit holes like Texas. The GOP did a fine job of trying to turn MN into a shit hole, schools are being starved into failure, yesterdays snow caused major problems on the roads because they refuse to plow properly as that costs money, so its not that I am not sympathetic. Its just that I don’t see the reason to pretend a shit hole is not a shit hole simply because not everyone that lives there is a brain dead wingnut.

    Like Bernie insisting we not point & laugh at the wingnuts because there is serious work to be done insisting that we not point & laugh at people who want to become a third world nation but work to defeat those people, I ask “why not both?”

    And just to reiterate I have never suggested I am anything but an asshole so if you want to insult me please try again

    BTW – I never suggested writing off the shit holes, only not fretting about their threats to make American a better place by their absence. There is a difference

  81. 81
    Chris says:

    @handsmile:

    This. And I would add that I’d only expect these incidents to increase as demographics turn against them. When your ideology can no longer win at the ballot box, that’s when the fringes go ape shit.

  82. 82
    Cassidy says:

    @greennotGreen: I know gerrymandering has a lot to do with it. Suffern ACE @81 is also right. But, in all reality it could be the result of magical asshole fairies for all that matters. The reality is that Texas has a detrimental effect on this country and is large enough to easily accommodate the wingnuts. And the weather sucks. If we lopped off Texas and let them have it, built a damn fence, and let everyone who wanted to continue to be an American citizen come over and settle, we would be the better for it.

    And no, I don’t really think we should excommunicate large numbers of citizens and slice of the whackaloon state where everyone likes things bigger including their tears of impotent rage. But, if we were to humor the secessionists and play their game, Texas would be a perfect place to give them their galtian third world hell. It’s halfway there already.

    I live in Florida. I feel your pain and feel the same way about this place [as I do about Texas], except we have nicer beaches.

  83. 83
    Schlemizel says:

    @Woodrowfan:

    I guess I didn’t consider ELF as a liberal organization, more anarchist – but that sort of smacks of the equivocating that the wing nuts do – I’ll give us them simply to avoid giving them that as a come back.

    I forgot to add that liberals never bombed the Olympic games either or spent the next few years helping the guy who did evade the police.

  84. 84
    Forum Transmitted Disease says:

    Oh, there will be blood, alright. As usual, it will be the blood of innocents, and not those who deserve to bleed.

  85. 85
    quannlace says:

    Forget secession. What’s more ominous for this country’s electorate is that nearly a majority of Republican voters are stupid enough to blame an imaginary organization for stealing an election. Did anybody think to ask them about that one lone black guy in camoflage gear standing outside a polling place?

  86. 86
    wrb says:

    bah

    If Romney had won that many Dems would have believed he’d stolen it.

    The Rs probably did steal the election in 2000 & the union survived.

    I’m more concerned about the danger of no response to systematically stolen future elections.

  87. 87
    Woodrowfan says:

    @Schlemizel: You’re right about ELF, but they’re on the left so they “count.” But, like you, I get very frustrated by the “both sides do it” nonsense.

    If you look historically at established democracies that fell into authoritarianism, there is a definite tendency to fall because of violence from the right, not the left. If they fall into a left-wing authoritarian system it tends to be because of an outside force (such as Czechoslovakia in 1948) or the democratic system itself was new and not yet secured (Russia 1917-1918)

  88. 88
    Schlemizel says:

    @Woodrowfan:

    Well to be fair, the weather underground did kill a couple of people once. One case from 40+ years ago is exactly equal to a string of bombing, shooting and mayhem crossing the last 20 years.

    Why should we worry that the wingnuts would get all violenty now?

  89. 89
    Forum Transmitted Disease says:

    Liberals’ time would be better spent figuring out how to organize the myriads of possible Democratic voters here in order to turn the state purple and then blue. Texas Democratic Chairman Gilberto Hinojosa is working on that and could use some help.

    @Josie: Wow, a sane post. Get the fuck off this blog.

    I jest. A little. You are correct, of course. Of all the red states, Texas is the one that can be turned with the least amount of effort and the one that, if turned, would turn the GOP into a truly ineffective regional party.

  90. 90
    TerryC says:

    I have a few FB friends talking about secession. I keep having to point out to them that if they were to secede, they are True Patriots alright—to the new country; but traitors to the USA even for saying it. It’s not like just leaving for Canada.

  91. 91
    cmorenc says:

    My right-wingnut friend, who was in the habit of quite frequently forwarding a selection of hard-core Tea Party emails about issues, Obama, democrats, etc. over the period between 2010 and the Nov 2012 election, has abruptly gone strangely silent on the political front. He’s also in the habit of frequently forwarding jokes, often about the foibles of getting old, which are often hilariously funny, though sometimes merely tacky and corny. The forwarded jokes still come at the rate of around a half a dozen emails a week.

    He’s a lifelong friend, the kind you keep because the web of shared life experiences back when you and he were young is any thicker than political differences which have developed between us over time. I pick my spots sparingly and judiciously to reply to his political emails, often with the tactical aim of undermining the supports to some of his key unquestioned assuptions rather than attempting a direct assault on his political worldview. For example, a frequent theme of right-wing emails is that a major reason for bad congressional repreentatives voting for bad things is because the job carries such rich benefits (retirement, health insurance) that it attracts avaricious, corrupt people to office. I replied by pointing out that the biggest corrupting financial influence by far on their voting habits is the average daily rate of campaign contributions required to raise each $1 million over each two year term before the next election (house) or over six years (senate), 365 days per year holidays and weekends included. That point effectively got through to him, even though it hasn’t (yet) changed his overall political orientation. Oh well, one grain or pebble at a time, and the Grand Canyon was dug…

  92. 92
    redshirt says:

    @Forum Transmitted Disease: Agreed. I think the national Democratic party should focus enormous resources on turning Texas blue. Not only is it a surprisingly realistic goal, but like you say, it would be the kill shot at the national Republican party.

  93. 93
    Liberty60 says:

    Secession is problematic inasmuch as the divide in America is urban/ rural, not geographical.

    So we have Austin, they have the surrounding areas; we have Chicago, they have downstate; we have NYC, they have upstate.We have LA & SF, they have the interior.

    But as others have noted, secession is the 27% of the 27%blowing off steam, nothing more.

  94. 94
    different-church-lady says:

    @Schlemizel: I take your point, but how many of those people announced their intention to do so before they did? And who won the elections before their actions?

    It ain’t the fools putting out petitions we need to worry about — it’s the quiet ones who’s brains work in mysterious and unique ways. Cause and effect is a broken process in their minds.

  95. 95
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @MikeJ: That’s what they said about the Daleks!

  96. 96
    Matt McIrvin says:

    What actually gets me steamed are the left-wing secessionists in Vermont. They claim to be good granola progressives, but they’re making common cause with neo-Confederates and trying to somehow write off the rest of the country.

  97. 97
    Mike in NC says:

    I read that Jim DeMint is currently available to don the mantle of president of the New Confederate States of America.

  98. 98
    redshirt says:

    @Mike in NC: DeMint/Armey! Leaders for a new CSA!

  99. 99
    Shalimar says:

    @wrb: That many Democrats who pay attention probably do believe Republicans tried to steal the 2012 election. Difference is, we blame those who have the actual power and motives to steal elections rather than organizations that no longer exist and people who do nothing more than stand outside of polling places looking black.

  100. 100
    feebog says:

    @ Citizen X:

    A result of gerrymandering, not the popular will. Has everyone forgotten Tom DeLay already?

    This issue has me puzzeled. There are many states where Republicans have gerrymandered that have statewide referendums available to them. Why are’nt more states putting together iniatives to have citizen commissions take over redistricting. We did that in California, over howls of protests from Dems mind you. The result is we gained five congressional seats and have super majorities in both houses.

    IMHO this should be job one for every state that has the referendum available to them. Put redistricting in the the hands of the people, not politicians of either party, Dems will come out on top almost every time.

  101. 101
    rikyrah says:

    According to that same PPP poll, 32% of all voters identify themselves, even now, as Republicans. Forty nine percent of 32% is 15.68%. In effect, 16% of all American voters – one in six – refuse to acknowledge that Barack Obama is the lawfully elected president of the United States.

    Fuck these muthafuckas.

    that is all.

  102. 102

    the old Stars and Bars

    A.k.a. “The Flag of Traitors.”

    I have this sudden urge to burn a flag. Guess which one.

  103. 103
    Gus diZerega says:

    This country would probably be better off if with every census people were asked whether they wanted to stay or leave as a state. Past a certain point there would then be a state wide initiative. One of two things would happen- the Neoconfederate degenerates would learn in no uncertain terms they are a minority in their own state, which is good, or a majority are Neoconfederate degenerates and they would be expelled from the union until they learned civilized political behavior.

    All they do now is prevent us from dealing with serious problems while seeking to bring us under the rule of the most spiritually, mentally, and morally corrupt part of our populace.

    I admire Lincoln greatly, but were the issue to happen today I’d cheer their departure.

  104. 104
    different-church-lady says:

    @Matt McIrvin: Lemme guess: they’re pissed off that Obama won too.

  105. 105
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @different-church-lady: Most of the stuff I’ve read about them was from before the 2012 election. They generally seem to be small-is-beautiful, deep-green types.

  106. 106
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Gus diZerega: Mississippi and South Carolina were actually majority-black at the time, so if it had really been up to a majority vote, I doubt secession would have carried the day, nor would have a lot of other things…

  107. 107
    Brachiator says:

    @Cassidy:

    And no, I don’t really think we should excommunicate large numbers of citizens and slice of the whackaloon state where everyone likes things bigger including their tears of impotent rage. But, if we were to humor the secessionists and play their game, Texas would be a perfect place to give them their galtian third world hell. It’s halfway there already.

    There is already a remedy for secessionists. They can leave and go somewhere else to live that suits them more. That’s all the “humor” they deserve. And no one, no where, no time, no how is going to give them Texas or any other piece of the United States.

    Again, the recent film Lincoln demonstrates how Old Abe and the Congress of the time killed the idea that seccession was legitimate. It is a waste of time for either wingnuts or misguided liberals to pretend that this is even an idea to be humored.

    In effect, 16% of all American voters – one in six – refuse to acknowledge that Barack Obama is the lawfully elected president of the United States

    Well, look at the bright side. It’s down from 27%. It’s a start.

  108. 108
    wuzzat says:

    Poor, misunderstood Vermont. What most people fail to realize is that the majority of Vermont is not pro-Democrat so much as they’re pro-Whichever Party Is Going To Leave Us The Fuck Alone. Isolationist by nature, they’d prefer that the rest of us stop by for a ski weekend, buy a few quarts of maple syrup and a pint of Ben & Jerry’s, and then leave. The state’s major source of income is tourism of the skier/hiker/camper variety, so they also vote green. Fortunately for the rest of us, as long as the GOP remains the clear-cutting, bible-thumping, interference-in-personal-autonomy party, that puts Vermont solidly in the Dem’s camp.

    However, the Vermont secessionists are a small, but vocal, minority that have hung out in the background for at least the last 20 years and are enjoying their bandwagon media attention at the moment.

  109. 109
    dww44 says:

    @Raven: As a lifetime Georgian, I agree with you. Think I will undertake my own little unofficial sampling here in the midstate, given that virtually ALL my acquaintances are Republicans.

    However if one believes the 40ish Tea Party lady interviewed early this a.m. on the dominant local TV station, if Saxby Chambliss votes for that tax increase for the top 2 percent then he will be primaried, as per her wonderfully original insightfullness that ” some Republicans are NOT really conservative. They are RINO’s,” she said, then enlightening viewers as to its meaning.

    Now that one just left me gobsmacked. The GOP is going to have to purge itself or die, and sooner rather than later.

  110. 110
    Rafer Janders says:

    What’s funny to me about this childish little secession tantrum is that, at heart, it’s an acknowledgment that American conservatives can’t really go anywhere. Liberals, if they’re very dissatisfied with the US, have a host of countries that are both more progressive (on many but not all measures) and equally developed as the US — Canada, most of Europe, Australia and New Zealand, Japan, etc.

    But if a conservative is unhappy, where’s he going to move to? There is literally nowhere on Earth that is both more right-wing than the US while being equally developed (and, just as important for them, both English-speaking and majority Christian). Seriously, where’s their conservative utopia? Somalia? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Russia? They’re trapped here.

    So all this secession talk is nothing more than a psychological defense mechanism — what they really want to say is “I’m taking my ball and going home”, but once they think for a second they realize there’s no home for them to go to.

  111. 111
  112. 112
    TG Chicago says:

    Honestly, that PPP poll isn’t really fair. They asked if Obama won fairly or if ACORN stole it for him. Of course a bunch of pissed off Republicans are going to choose the latter. If, in 2004, somebody had asked Democrats “Did Bush win fairly or did the Illuminati steal it for him?”, you’d have gotten a bunch of people choosing Illuminati.

    Also:

    So almost one in twelve American voters say they are prepared to give Ft. Sumter a do over because their candidate lost last month.

    I wouldn’t assume that it’s the result of the election alone. Probably a bunch of those have had starry-eyed dreams about the Confederacy for their entire lives, and they would have picked secession in any event.

  113. 113
    Mike G says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    There is literally nowhere on Earth that is both more right-wing than the US while being equally developed

    Singapore is more right-wing in many ways, although the majority of housing is developed and managed by the government and they have national health care. Taxes on cars and gasoline are the most expensive in the world, so no SUV for you unless you’re a CEO. And the rightards probably wouldn’t like being subject to the social restrictions and limitations on speech that they dream of imposing on people they don’t like. Most of them wouldn’t fare too well with the work ethic of a highly competitive society, and obese people sweat like pigs in that hot, humid equatorial climate.

  114. 114
    Haydnseek says:

    @Josie: Texas will eventually turn purple, and then blue, but it will have to turn brown first.

  115. 115
    different-church-lady says:

    @TG Chicago:

    They asked if Obama won fairly or if ACORN stole it for him.

    Seriously? WTF kind of polling question is that? Doesn’t anyone play anything straight anymore?

    If, in 2004, somebody had asked Democrats “Did Bush win fairly or did the Illuminati steal it for him?”, you’d have gotten a bunch of people choosing Illuminati.

    What about the Fugawi? Didn’t they have a role?

  116. 116
    Xenos says:

    @redshirt:

    DeMint/Armey! Leaders for a new CSA!

    I am beginning to think quite highly of the drone program. Let’s keep it.

  117. 117
    Josie says:

    @Cassidy: I just got home from work. It is a very small percentage – less than half of a percent. Google it and see.

  118. 118
    different-church-lady says:

    @Josie:

    I just got home from work. It is a very small percentage – less than half of a percent. Google it and see.

    .5% of population can = 30-40% of cable news coverage.

    It ain’t the polls that need to be unskewed.

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