What Does This Vote Mean

The UN General Assembly voted overwhelmingly to grant Palestine status as a nonmember observer state, with basically everyone but Israel and her client state the US voting in favor:

More than 130 countries voted on Thursday to grant Palestine the upgraded status of nonmember observer state in the United Nations, a stinging defeat for Israel and the United States and a boost for President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority, who was weakened by the recent eight days of fighting in Gaza.

The new ranking could make it easier for the Palestinians to pursue Israel in international legal forums, but it remained unclear what effect it would have on attaining what both sides say they want — a two-state solution.

Still, the vote offered a showcase for an extraordinary international lineup of support for the Palestinians and constituted a deeply symbolic achievement for their cause, made even weightier by arriving on the 65th anniversary of the General Assembly vote that divided the former British Mandate of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and the other Arab — a vote that Israel considers the international seal of approval for its birth.

But what does it really mean? Isn’t there a Security Council vote related to this, which we will undoubtedly veto? Not to go all Slate contrarian on you, but my guess is this vote means everything and nothing at the same time.

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182 replies
  1. 1
    JPL says:

    Brian Williams hasn’t mentioned it yet so it didn’t happen.

  2. 2
    Baud says:

    It means John McCain will be on the TV all weekend blaming our UN ambassador for this result.

  3. 3
    kindness says:

    It means foaming at the mouth conservatives will be able to blame the Kenyan So$hulist for one more thing. God I dread listening to NPR on my way home. Oh wait….I have an ipod in the car. I’m saved Thank God!

  4. 4
    Voncey says:

    There’s no vote in the Security Council on this. The Palestinians now have observer status and with this they can become members of other UN bodies, the thinking goes. But I think US law prohibits funding to any UN body that grants full membership to the P.A. — that happened last year when UNESCO admitted the PA and the US cut off funding.

  5. 5

    It is the next step in the evilest plan of all time, The UN Amendment 21. First you recognize Palestine, then you take away the guns, then you send people to FEMA camp, then you get teh wimmens.

  6. 6
    Zifnab25 says:

    But what does it really mean? Isn’t there a Security Council vote related to this, which we will undoubtedly veto? Not to go all Slate contrarian on you, but my guess is this vote means everything and nothing at the same time.

    Well, first and foremost it means the international community is abandoning Israel. Ten years ago, Israel could make some kind of claim amounting to “Giving Palestine further recognition while they fail to recognize Israel is only going to make our negotiations with them harder. Just stay out of it while we handle diplomacy with our neighbor.”

    But Israel tipped its hand and it is now abundantly clear that it doesn’t actually want to engage in diplomacy. And the way its been pissing off virtually every other country that tries to step in on Palestine’s behalf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.....Gaza_Strip – who haven’t they stepped on with this stupid blockade?) has killed international support.

    Israel’s only friend right now is the US, and Bibi seems hell-bent on pissing that away however he can.

  7. 7
    rikyrah says:

    I don’t know what it means…but, it’s a big deal.

  8. 8
    yopd1 says:

    “Client State” Seriously?

  9. 9
    Schlemizel says:

    It means Israel is further isolated and the Us looks more and more foolish for standing with them against Palestine and the entire rest of the world.

    It lends some small legitimacy to the PA and will be used to highlight Israels continued violation of UN resolutions

  10. 10
    Keith says:

    @Baud: Good news!

  11. 11
    BGinCHI says:

    It means Israel is acting like a huge dick.

  12. 12
    SatanicPanic says:

    Whatever it is, it’s Obama’s fault. And the biggest defeat the US has suffered in its entire history, except that time when the South lost.

  13. 13
    Forum Transmitted Disease says:

    with basically everyone but Israel and her client state the US voting in favor

    How embarrassing. How fucking humiliating that we bend over backwards for a nation that does nothing but slaughter innocents, our own troops, our own citizens, and gives us nothing – but quite happily pockets 3 billion a year out of the paychecks of all of us.

  14. 14
    the Conster says:

    It’s all lining up to prove the Mayans were right.

  15. 15
    Cassidy says:

    What does it mean? Next time Israel says fuck it and s; slaughters everyone.

  16. 16
    redshirt says:

    This is even worse than Benghazi, which was the worst thing ever, until today.

  17. 17
    Forum Transmitted Disease says:

    “Client State” Seriously?

    @yopd1: Do you have a better term for a nation that does what it’s told to by another no matter the circumstances? I don’t.

  18. 18
    Steve Crickmore says:

    According to Juan Cole, the influential progressive policy expert on the middle east, the vote, among other things, means that the confidence scam that Israel and the United States have been running on the Palestinians, of a “peace process,” is finally about to meet a well-deserved demise.

  19. 19
    yopd1 says:

    @Forum Transmitted Disease: Most Israeli aid actually goes to US companies. Now you can argue whether those companies should get that money, but saying they give us nothing is BS.

    Also, PCs, cellphones, the two of the drugs I take for Parkinson’s, among a host of other things are dependent on innovations made in Israel. But keep up that canard, because we get back so much more by the money we spend in Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt, Korea and Germany.

  20. 20
    Cermet says:

    @Forum Transmitted Disease: But without israel how can there be the anti Jesus zealots rupture rapture for all the money whor’s that any sane God would just damn. Lucky for those dumb fucker’s they are the only fools that believe that utter stupid shit in the revulsion I mean the so-called revelation.

  21. 21
    JohnK says:

    It is something for John McCain to explain this Sunday.

  22. 22
    yopd1 says:

    @Forum Transmitted Disease: You do realize that the term’s most recent use was by the ex-Prime Minister of Israel, Olmert, who supported the UN vote.

  23. 23
    Cassidy says:

    Most Israeli aid actually goes to US companies.

    Wouldn’t mind seeing a cite for that. Link please?

  24. 24
    redshirt says:

    @JohnK: So excited for Johnny Mac Sundays. What channel will he be on this weekend?

  25. 25
    DPS says:

    @yopd1:

    This is not an answer to FTD’s question.

  26. 26
    dollared says:

    @yopd1: link please.

  27. 27
    Mike in NC says:

    @redshirt:

    So excited for Johnny Mac Sundays. What channel will he be on this weekend?

    As Sarah Palin once said, “All of them”.

  28. 28
    Joe Buck says:

    The Security Council has no veto with respect to this vote.

    Palestine now has the same status at the UN as the Vatican has. And it makes them eligible for membership in the International Criminal Court, which leads to some interesting possibilities.

  29. 29
    some guy says:

    what this means is the Palestinian Authority can now apply for membership with the International Court of Justice at the Hague.

    and the long and detailed backlog of war criminal indictments can begin.

  30. 30

    @yopd1:

    PC’s and cellphones you say? Well hot damn, Its all worth it. Now I really want those Muslims defeated.

  31. 31
    Richard says:

    With every passing year, Israel travels further and further down a dark path that is looking increasingly and sadly familiar. One wonders when they’ll be reaching a point when they’ll be talking about the final solution of the Palestinian question.

  32. 32
    Maude says:

    Canada voted against.

  33. 33
    yopd1 says:

    @Cassidy: They pretty much receive only military aid grants now in the form of FMF.

    Israel uses almost 75% of its FMF funds to purchase U.S. defense equipment

  34. 34
    Cassidy says:

    @Richard: What makes you think they haven’t?

  35. 35
    some guy says:

    he’s referring (I think) to the patents held by Modu, the bankrupt Israeli firm Google bought patents from in 2011. Google paid the whopping sum of $4.9 million for 12 patents.

  36. 36
    yopd1 says:

    @The Other Bob: Way to ignore the rest of what I said. Also, the idea that Israel politics are universally what AIPAC and Christian Conservatives says is naive at best.

  37. 37
    Schlemizel says:

    @yopd1:

    Comparing the money we piss away in Israel with the money we piss away on the two useless wars Boy blunder stuck us with is hardly useful.

    I wonder if that money spent here on research could have returned the same results for even less dollars

  38. 38
    NeoOstrakon says:

    The two state solution is running out of time both demographically and geographically (settlements). The world has backed Israel for decades and a deal has not gotten done, both sides to blame and all that. This does alter the playing field if for no other reason it means the world is passing Israel and moving forward. Hopefully it will put some pressure on for a lasting deal.

  39. 39
    yopd1 says:

    @DPS: Yes, Obama is so beholden to Netanyahu. It’s an idiotic statement, so it didn’t deserve an answer.

  40. 40
    yopd1 says:

    @DPS: Yes, Obama is so beholden to Netanyahu. It’s an idiotic statement, so it didn’t deserve an answer.

  41. 41
    some guy says:

    anybody who doesn’t get the overt irony of the posed question “who is the client, here?” is being willfully obtuse.

  42. 42
    Cassidy says:

    @yopd1: If I understand correctly, we give the money to Israel, then they buy stuff from US manufacturers? That’s not quite the same thing you said.

  43. 43
    MikeJake says:

    Not to go all Slate contrarian on you, but my guess is this vote means everything and nothing at the same time.

    That sounds more like something Tom Friedman would say.

  44. 44
    Spike says:

    Susan Rice’s statement after the vote was heavy on the butt-hurt. US policy is embarrassing.

  45. 45
    Mandalay says:

    @yopd1:

    Also, PCs, cellphones, the two of the drugs I take for Parkinson’s, among a host of other things are dependent on innovations made in Israel. But keep up that canard, because we get back so much more by the money we spend in Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt, Korea and Germany.

    Your argument is bogus: money given to Israel can be poorly spent, regardless of whether we get more or less value in other places such as Afghanistan and Iraq.

  46. 46
    yopd1 says:

    Do you all really believe Israeli’s think of the US as a client state? Sorry, it smacks of the same thinking as the Jews run the media.

    Do I agree with everything the Israeli gov’t does, hell no. But what purpose or good does it serve to make statements like that?

  47. 47
    General Stuck says:

    The US gives money to all sorts of states for military uses and everything else under the sun. Is Egypt a US client state? If so, much of the world is.

    Anyways, I have no clue what this means, but am for it because it could give the Palestinians a sense of self as in a people, or statehood. I have nothing else to say on this topic, as in, being a toxic brew nothing good can arise from on a liberal blog.

  48. 48
    yopd1 says:

    @Mandalay: Read what I was responding to

    How fucking humiliating that we bend over backwards for a nation that does nothing but slaughter innocents, our own troops, our own citizens, and gives us nothing

  49. 49
    yopd1 says:

    @General Stuck: He called the US a client state of Israel. That’s what I took issue with.

  50. 50
    Mandalay says:

    @Maude:

    Canada voted against.

    Here is the full list of those countries who voted against the Palestinians:

    Canada
    Czech Republic
    Israel
    U.S.
    Panama
    The Marshall Islands
    Palau
    Nauru
    Micronesia

    I suspect all those dots in the Pacific Ocean were afraid of finding a horse’s head on their bed rather than having any real opposition to the Palestinian cause.

  51. 51
    MikeJake says:

    I’m not unsympathetic to Israel’s position on the Palestinians, but this sends another message that the international commmunity is unhappy with the grotesque status quo that’s developed. Something has to be done with those people other than walling them up and trying to pretend they don’t exist.

  52. 52
    Schlemizel says:

    @yopd1:

    So aid to Israel is just a giant fucking welfare program? Wouldn’t it be simpler to toss money out of an airplane flying over major US cities?

  53. 53
    General Stuck says:

    @yopd1:

    Yes, I know. It is hard to tell what Cole means from one minute to the next. But he likes being in the cool crowd, so they won’t barrage him with nasty emails. The cool crowd on the left, on the blogs, is more a death to Israel crowd than anything else.

    Me, well, I’m like you, a fly in the tribal ointment.

  54. 54
    Schlemizel says:

    @yopd1: Do you all really believe Israeli’s think of the US as a client state? Sorry, it smacks of the same thinking as the Jews run the media.

    No, from the way these two behave I think the US is a client state of Israel.

    I suppose I could be more specific and say a client state of the Likud party but really at the present time & for the last at least 20 years thats the same thing

  55. 55
    some guy says:

    what our friend is dancing around is that we give the apartheid regime a few billion a year, and our Congress gives them a 100% Free pass on any and all egregious behaviour they engage in.

    war Crimes, Land Thefts, Ethnic Cleansing? It’s all good, and to even question their military hegemony or their nuclear arsenal is heresy.

  56. 56
    yopd1 says:

    @Schlemizel: Corporate Welfare. Neither side gets rid of that.

  57. 57
    Mandalay says:

    @yopd1:

    Read what I was responding to.

    I did. You were responding to this:

    How embarrassing. How fucking humiliating that we bend over backwards for a nation that does nothing but slaughter innocents, our own troops, our own citizens, and gives us nothing – but quite happily pockets 3 billion a year out of the paychecks of all of us.

    I think that summarizes the situation beautifully.

    But that had nothing to do with the false equivalence that you fabricated.

  58. 58
    Phoenician in a time of Romans says:

    Hmm – let’s dig down a bit

    ICC – http://untreaty.un.org/cod/icc.....tatute.htm

    —-

    Article 12
    Preconditions to the exercise of jurisdiction

    1. A State which becomes a Party to this Statute thereby accepts the jurisdiction of the Court with respect to the crimes referred to in article 5.

    2. In the case of article 13, paragraph (a) or (c), the Court may exercise its jurisdiction if one or more of the following States are Parties to this Statute or have accepted the jurisdiction of the Court in accordance with paragraph 3:

    (a) The State on the territory of which the conduct in question occurred or, if the crime was committed on board a vessel or aircraft, the State of registration of that vessel or aircraft;

    (b) The State of which the person accused of the crime is a national.

    3. If the acceptance of a State which is not a Party to this Statute is required under paragraph 2, that State may, by declaration lodged with the Registrar, accept the exercise of jurisdiction by the Court with respect to the crime in question. The accepting State shall cooperate with the Court without any delay or exception in accordance with Part 9.

    Article 13
    Exercise of jurisdiction

    The Court may exercise its jurisdiction with respect to a crime referred to in article 5 in accordance with the provisions of this Statute if:

    (a) A situation in which one or more of such crimes appears to have been committed is referred to the Prosecutor by a State Party in accordance with article 14;

    (b) A situation in which one or more of such crimes appears to have been committed is referred to the Prosecutor by the Security Council acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations; or

    (c) The Prosecutor has initiated an investigation in respect of such a crime in accordance with article 15.

    —-

    I don’t have a clue as regards the finest points of international law, but if “Palestine” has official recognition as a nonmember observer state, doesn’t that mean it can indeed sign up to these treaties, thus becoming a State Party able to bring prosecutions to the court for acts committed on its territory – the “problem” the UK was worried about?

  59. 59
    Schlemizel says:

    @General Stuck:

    different things – we give money that ends up supporting the defense companies here but there are very few countries we subvert out foreign polity for.

    Sure Egypt gets millions which it uses to buy F-18s but Egypt is not allowed to fuck over anyone it wants with our full support and assistance

  60. 60
    yopd1 says:

    @some guy:

    Ethnic Cleansing

    Can’t argue with that, I’m done.

  61. 61
    Full Metal Wingnut says:

    I don’t know jack shit about the UN (other than the fact that I HATE it because Rick Santorum told me to), but how is the Security Council implicated in this type of thing?

  62. 62
    Schlemizel says:

    @General Stuck:

    Only one real response to that. As a leftist I am reduced to the only logical response to that twisted interpretation: fuck you.

  63. 63
    Schlemizel says:

    @yopd1:
    so that makes it OK, right?

  64. 64

    @Mandalay: coalition of the unwilling!

  65. 65

    @yopd1:

    Do you all really believe Israeli’s think of the US as a client state? Sorry, it smacks of the same thinking as the Jews run the media.

    Isreal does not equal Jews. Nice try ass.

  66. 66
    General Stuck says:

    @Schlemizel:

    Sure Egypt gets millions which it uses to buy F-18s but Egypt is not allowed to fuck over anyone it wants with our full support and assistance

    Not sure who “anyone” is, but for sure they are locked in a death spiral with Hamas and its ilk. Get Hamas to quit trying to kill Jews, then we can talk. Otherwise, I will politely state my disagreement with your viewpoint. And hopefully leave it at that.

  67. 67
    Full Metal Wingnut says:

    @Maude: Someone knows what side their bread is buttered on! I knew those people were good for something!

  68. 68
    General Stuck says:

    @Schlemizel:

    Right back atcha, tough guy.

  69. 69
    Phoenician in a time of Romans says:

    @Schlemizel:

    So aid to Israel is just a giant fucking welfare program? Wouldn’t it be simpler to toss money out of an airplane flying over major US cities?

    If you did that, the money wouldn’t go to the right people (such as shareholders in large defense companies).

  70. 70
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    What does this have to do with the Benghazi scandal?

  71. 71
    Full Metal Wingnut says:

    @yopd1: Various wars notwithstanding, Israel was once a very left country. People don’t see that because of the stranglehold of the Likud past…while.

  72. 72
    Lurking Canadian says:

    @Mandalay: As any reader of Chomsky knows, Israel routinely loses votes about Palestine in the General Assembly by scores of >150 to 3. The third was traditionally Micronesia.

    So this nine is actually a good score for them on a historical scale.

  73. 73
    Pinkamena Panic says:

    Oh good, the idiotic headbutting has begun. Now comes the fun* part.

    (For values of “fun” encompassing but not limited to “not fun whatsoever”)

  74. 74
    A moocher says:

    @General Stuck: No it isn’t.

  75. 75
    Suffern ACE says:

    So who gets to send the representatives to the UN? The impotent and corrupt faction? Or the murderers who sometimes do charity?

  76. 76
    A moocher says:

    @Schlemizel: Fuck him twice. Thanks for saying it first.

  77. 77
    Calouste says:

    @Mandalay:

    For the dots in the Pacific, their UN vote (and diplomatic recognition and such) is a major export product. Countries like Israel and Taiwan are handing over serious coin for that.

  78. 78
    Full Metal Wingnut says:

    @Lurking Canadian: Is Canada generally one of those countries? Is that because off US pressure or do they have their equivalent of AIPAC up there? I read a book on the history of the conflict a while back by a guy named Edward Tessler-very thorough and balanced (or, as Fox would say, anti-Semitic because its not blatantly pro-Israel). But I don’t remember much of anything on Canada.

  79. 79
    A moocher says:

    @General Stuck: Get Israel to quit expropriating the West Bank by stealth and then we can talk. Israel does not have a fucking leg to stand on, and the vast majority of the world is coming to recognise that. Israelis need to smarten the fuck up, and cut a deal while they still can. The constant whining about how the evil jihadists live to kill jews….nobody is buying that bullshit anymore…except the USA, and I deeply regret to add, Canada.

  80. 80
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Full Metal Wingnut:

    Well, not so much the stranglehold of the Likud as much as the pure crazy that allows tiny whackaloon religious parties to have veto power over who gets to runt he government.

    Oh, and there are Israelis who, without the slightest blush, think an Endlösung to the “Palestinian Question” is what is needed.

  81. 81
    A moocher says:

    @Full Metal Wingnut: The cultural residue of sympathy for Israel, the natural consequence of WW2, is strong here, and the anti musim propaganda also relentless and effective. The fundy obsession is also a factor, but perhaps less so than in the US. The biggest factor is internal politics…there are a handful of ridings, in Toronto and Montreal, primarily that have significant Jewish populations, enough to be decisive as between the Conservative’s and the Liberals or the NDP. I have friends and relatives for whom that issue would be decisive, who care in fact about little else. They, and Israel, are in for a rude awakening, I am afraid, unless Israel comes to its senses.

  82. 82
    Lurking Canadian says:

    @Full Metal Wingnut: There is a strong pro-Israeli sentiment. Criticism of Israel is denounced, but not immediately fatal, the way it is for (or at least is treated by) US Congressmen. A recent Liberal Party leader actually referred to an Israeli action as a “war crime”. He walked it back, but it’s hard to imagine somebody like Obama or Pelosi sayin that in the shower, much less to a microphone.

    Our diplomatic stance, I think, has traditionally aligned with the Western Europeans, so we were not generally one of the yes votes. Harper, however, has never met a war he wasn’t for. As long as the US and Israel promise to keep stomping the ragheads in the face, he’ll support them. I think Canadian troops would have been in Iraq, if that fiasco had happened on his watch.

  83. 83
    General Stuck says:

    @A moocher:

    The constant whining about how the evil jihadists live to kill jews

    Hamas is not trying to kill Jews for religious or jihadist reasons. They are doing to win a war over land, via fairly standard insurgent guerilla tactics for a weaker force.

    Attack with the weapons you have, and force the stronger force to over react and then get the media and idiots like you to feel sorry for them. And in this case, with an enemy that is a democracy, get the voters of your enemy to put in power their most violent fanatics to fight fire with fire.

    It has nothing to do with settlements, or anything else. It is total victory or nothing to drive the state of Israel into the sea. No country is going to bargain under those circumstances, nor give up any leverage they have.

    Now, is this the point where you call me a republican, or wingnut, or racist, or whatever.

  84. 84
    Mandalay says:

    @Calouste:

    Countries like Israel and Taiwan are handing over serious coin for that.

    How does that handover actually work? Is this an overt thing (in the form of government aid, for example), or are brown envelopes being passed under the table?

    And what is in it for the country handing over the money? Just what has Israel gained by securing Nauru’s vote today?

  85. 85
    Full Metal Wingnut says:

    @Lurking Canadian: fascinating. I will admit, that despite having family in Canada (gramps from Nova Scotia, others in New Brunswick) and despite having been a few times (Toronto and Montreal for pleasure, both lovely, NB and NS to visit family) all I know about you guys is that you have the queen on your money. I’d really like to rectify that. It’s a shame I didn’t learn jack shit about you guys other than…nothing.

  86. 86
    chopper says:

    @yopd1:

    because there are no technological or medical innovations that come out of korea or germany. no sir.

  87. 87
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @General Stuck:

    Hamas is not trying to kill Jews for religious or jihadist reasons. They are doing to win a war over land, via fairly standard insurgent guerilla tactics for a weaker force.

    OK, that’s a reasonable explanation.

    Unlike the standard “we’re going to push the Jews into the sea!” that the supporters of the Apartheid State usually claim is the goal of those Palestinian Untermenschen.

  88. 88
    A moocher says:

    @General Stuck:you should check your first and third paragraphs, and perhaps you will detect, after long study, the blatant contradiction.

    As for the “idiots like me”, let me say this about that: you are an untruther, a poltroon, and a poopy-head.

  89. 89
    SW says:

    Looks like they finally smoked us out.

  90. 90
    Mandalay says:

    @General Stuck:

    Hamas is not trying to kill Jews for religious or jihadist reasons. They are doing to win a war over land

    I think you must have intended to write:
    They are doing it to win a war over land taken from them.

    I understand. Fog of war and all that.

  91. 91
    A moocher says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: which is what GS claims in his third paragraph…you shoulda kept reading.

  92. 92
    Francis says:

    Stipulating that Hamas is a bunch of terrorists, the Gaza Strip has a population of 1.6 million on a parcel of land approximately twice as long and twice as wide as Manhattan. Are these people solely Eygpt’s problem? Does the Israeli occupation / blockade possibly cause some of the terrorism about which Israel complains? (No, I don’t have missiles falling on my head. But I’m also not a citizen of a country that has worked so hard to raise a generation of terrorists who live immediately adjacent. We at least are ‘smart’ enough to raise them half a planet away.)

    Anyway, now what? Who here sees a two-state solution in which Gaza and the West Bank get to form viable sovereign states? Who sees a one-state solution in which everyone has a vote? And who sees blockade continuing until such time as Eygpt has enough and allows serious heavy weapons to flow into Gaza and kick off a nasty war? And after that war, then what?

  93. 93
    Full Metal Wingnut says:

    @General Stuck: i see your point-what’s wrong with fighting with what you have/playing to your strengths? And furthermore, you cannot in good faith argue that the causality is unidirectional (ie Hamas et al are solely at fault and poor little Israel has no choice but to fire rockets into the West Bank)

    I do get the argument, but the thing with guerrilla tactics and provocation generally-you don’t actually force people to do things. The Clinton scandals were bullshit, but no one made him lie under oath. 9/11 was al Qaeda’s fault, but no one made us respond the way we did, what with our two misguided wars-that’s on us.

  94. 94
    👽 Martin says:

    @some guy: Intel’s Core chipset was designed in Israel. Apple bought Anobit for half a billion – a fabless semiconductor company. Apple is actually expanding their presence in Israel above what Anobit had. There’s a lot of petty good tech going on in Israel – don’t discount them.

    That said, the only thing our Israel support money goes to is buying US made bombs and shit. Worth it? I don’t think so. I doubt most people would think it was.

  95. 95
    redshirt says:

    I’m so sick of religions. Fair to say it’s the first or second reason for most of the world’s problems?

  96. 96
    General Stuck says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    LOL, you got narrative. But left out “ethnic cleansing ” and ‘genocide’, that is always a nice touch for the debate.

  97. 97
    dollared says:

    @Mandalay: Out of all of those, we haven’t invaded Israel and the Czech Republic.

  98. 98
    Ben Franklin says:

    @General Stuck:

    Your idiocy grows stronger with every post.

    100 Palestinians die for every Israeli.

  99. 99
    Mandalay says:

    @redshirt:

    I’m so sick of religions. Fair to say it’s the first or second reason for most of the world’s problems?

    Yes, religion is the second reason.

    Those who have followed the Republican’s election campaign know that Obama is the primary reason for all of the world’s problems.

  100. 100
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @General Stuck:

    Israel has, unfortunately, proven Nietzsche was on to something with that battling the beast simile of his.

    @A moocher:

    Ayup, you’re right. There it is. He started out all fairly reasonable, and then he went all Likudnik stooge on us.

  101. 101
    4tehlulz says:

    inb4 Hamas rocket volley (that misses as usual)

  102. 102
    Ben Franklin says:

    @General Stuck:

    As I’ve said. I think you would be much more comfortable at Pajama Pantload.

  103. 103
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @👽 Martin:

    That said, the only thing our Israel support money goes to is buying US made bombs and shit. Worth it? I don’t think so. I doubt most people would think it was.

    Well, the executives of the MIC are pretty happy with it. Those sales mean that they don’t have to skimp on the booze, blow, and hookers.

  104. 104
    RedKitten says:

    @Full Metal Wingnut: I think a big part of it is that Harper is basically a frustrated neocon.

  105. 105
    Lurking Canadian says:

    @Francis: I’ve thought for some time that the only possible solution was for some non-aligned power, Denmark, say, or Brazil, or something, to announce that it was going to just annex the Occupied Territories. Henceforth, Gaza and West Bank are provinces of Denmark, and the inhabitants thereof have Danish citizenship with all the rights and privileges thereof.

    If some asshole wants to launch a rocket at Israel from Gaza, the Danish national police track him down and try him for murder. No more problems due to overcrowding, water shortages an so on: anybody who wants to can move to mainland Denmark. No more Israeli embargoes, invasions, or settlements. They wouldn’t pick a fight with Denmark.

    This has zero probability of happening, of course, but short of one side wiping out the other, I don’t see how else it ends.

  106. 106
    General Stuck says:

    @A moocher:

    let me say this about that: you are an untruther, a poltroon, and a poopy-head.

    Very original. I salute your creative abilities. If there are any more questions, please put them in a letter to yourself.

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    and then he went all Likudnik stooge on us.

    “Likudnik stooge” That is so cool, you are the first to use that.

    @A moocher:

    I have no idea what you are talking about with this comment, I don’t see any contradiction in my comment . What I do see is normally normal BJ commenters go completely fucking stupid on the topic of Israel, like some kind of zombie rage virus.

  107. 107
    General Stuck says:

    @Ben Franklin:

    I never pay any attention in what you say. Not even a tiny bit. Now take your meds and quit picking your nose. People will talk.

  108. 108
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Lurking Canadian: been tried with Lebanon and Jordan serving as Denmark. Ended badly. I think things went relatively better for all involved when the Ottomans had the area, but setting that up again is probably a non starter with the people’s to the west, north, south and east of Turkey.

  109. 109
    Medicine Man says:

    I suspect this means that the Israel-Palestine conflict will be played out in international courts now. There will continue to be a conflict, however, as I suspect both sides are not done dicking with one another yet.

  110. 110
    Phoenician in a time of Romans says:

    @General Stuck:

    It has nothing to do with settlements, or anything else. It is total victory or nothing to drive the state of Israel into the sea.

    Uh-huh. The side with nuclear-armed submarines, tanks and jet fighters is desperately hanging on for its very existence against the evil machinations of militia and terrorists with antique guns and a few hyped up bottle rockets?

    Have you considered why so few people outside your paid-for US Congress seem to be buying it any more?

  111. 111
    Paula says:

    Well, in re the “Pivot to Asia”, the WH is signaling that dealing with the Middle East is no longer to the U.S.’s benefit. Per the Arab Spring, Obama shows a willingness to step aside when the popular tide is sweeping in a very obvious direction. This vote appears to be a very obvious direction.

    It would be nice if the U.S. were quietly shoved off-stage and Israel would be forced to deal with, well, everyone else. Not that the Europeans would be the most honest brokers ever, but better than us.

  112. 112
    redshirt says:

    Wouldn’t it be awesome to offer residence in the US to any Palestinian and Israeli that would like to take it up? Would that solve the problem? We could easily handle 20 million immigrants if it was a planned event.

  113. 113
    LD50 says:

    @yopd1:

    Do you all really believe Israeli’s think of the US as a client state? Sorry, it smacks of the same thinking as the Jews run the media.

    And right on time, we creep an eensy bit closer to all being called anti-semites.

  114. 114
    Mandalay says:

    @dollared:

    Out of all of those, we haven’t invaded Israel and the Czech Republic.

    We are damn good at invading, but have not yet reached the level of our teacher:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/n.....verywhere/

    On the other hand, we are way better than them at being hated.

  115. 115
    4tehlulz says:

    @redshirt: @redshirt: It would work Only if the Israelis settle in Independence, Missouri.

  116. 116
    LD50 says:

    @General Stuck:

    What I do see is normally normal BJ commenters go completely fucking stupid on the topic of Israel,

    I think you mean no one here agrees with you. Not the same thing, but nice try.

  117. 117
    Ben Franklin says:

    @General Stuck:

    Too funny. Yet you are the go-to-guy when it comes to sentient thought.

    You missed your calling, comedian….

  118. 118
    General Stuck says:

    @Full Metal Wingnut:

    i see your point-what’s wrong with fighting with what you have/playing to your strengths? And furthermore, you cannot in good faith argue that the causality is unidirectional (ie Hamas et al are solely at fault and poor little Israel has no choice but to fire rockets into the West Bank)

    Thanks for an intelligent comment

    I never said Israel has no choice but to respond with the large degree of lethality they are prone to these days. This war has been going on for a long time, with the basic formula as part of insurgent tactics. I can remember when Israel didn’t over react like they do now. It’s been a while, but former Labor party leaders often did so. The length of the conflict has produced some profound pathology in the Israeli people, that aren’t normally a violent abusive group of people.

    I don’t approve of what they (Israelis) do as a moral matter with the disproportional killing of Palestinians, nor as a basic supporter of the existence of Israel. They are losing the psychological long war, and they are not the first to defeat themselves, by their own over reactions. But I also understand that endless conflict does strange things to the psyche, and would anyone. You cannot ignore rockets, even small ones raining down into your neighborhoods, and over time, the citizens of any country on earth would demand their government do what is necessary to make it stop.

  119. 119
    Maude says:

    @Paula:
    It’s so nice to read a comment that states such love for the US.

  120. 120
    redshirt says:

    At this point I am 100% pro Palestinian not because I hate the Jews, but rather I find the actions of the Israeli government towards the Palestinians to be barbaric, cruel, horrific, and something we as a global society should work to stop.

    I have many Jewish friends by the way, and a great respect for Jewish culture.

  121. 121
    polyorchnid octopunch says:

    @General Stuck: On this one? I’m going with racist.

  122. 122
    Ben Franklin says:

    @redshirt:

    Zionism is not Judaism.

  123. 123
    4tehlulz says:

    >I have many Jewish friends by the way, and a great respect for Jewish culture.

    Do you have black friends too?

  124. 124
    Ben Franklin says:

    @General Stuck:

    I just want to know….if you are representative of Obotism?

  125. 125
    LD50 says:

    @General Stuck:

    It has nothing to do with settlements, or anything else. It is total victory or nothing to drive the state of Israel into the sea. No country is going to bargain under those circumstances, nor give up any leverage they have.

    If you’re trying to convince the ‘completely fucking stupid’ commenters here, dragging out standard boilerplate Netanyahu horseshit isn’t really gonna help.

  126. 126
    Paula says:

    @Maude:

    Why the sarcasm? Because expressing general disapproval over the way the U.S. enables Israel’s worst behavior equals hating the entire United States?

  127. 127
    General Stuck says:

    @LD50:

    I think you mean no one here agrees with you. Not the same thing, but nice try.

    There are plenty that agree. They are simply smart enough not to participate in what are generally psychotic threads on this blog on the topic of Israel. I normally bypass these threads myself, but must be bored out of my ghord

  128. 128
    some guy says:

    @LD50:

    a pretty common thing, when Israel supporters encounter rational, liberal people who don’t agree with their objective support for apartheid. they think it is their opponents who suddenly have become rabid, crazy, zombies, etc…

  129. 129
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    But what does it really mean?

    It means that whenever Israel wants to kick the Palestinians it will first need to look around to see who’s watching.

  130. 130
    Djur says:

    I wonder if Plan B is available to minors in Israel. Maybe that’d change General Stuck’s mind. Or he’ll start weeping about how we’re all apologists for child molestation again.

    ETA: Oh, and a lot of pharmaceutical companies in Israel, too.

  131. 131
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Mandalay: I do think we invaded the Czech Republic or its predecessor state at one point. Didn’t stay long, but we were there.

  132. 132
    Ash Can says:

    Too tired and impatient to read through the thread to see if anyone’s beaten me to this, but I would certainly like to think that it means that Obama and/or Hillary got on the phone to Bibi and said, look, bro, you do the math — the jig, she is up.

  133. 133
    Ben Franklin says:

    @<a href="#comment-40@General Stuck:

    I don’t approve of what they (Israelis) do as a moral matter

    The walkback begins….

  134. 134
    redshirt says:

    @4tehlulz: I have one. Wish I had more.

  135. 135
    General Stuck says:

    @LD50:

    Not horseshit. Straight from the mouths of Hamas.

  136. 136
    Mandalay says:

    @General Stuck:

    You cannot ignore rockets, even small ones raining down into your neighborhoods, and over time, the citizens of any country on earth would demand their government do what is necessary to make it stop.

    One way to make it stop would be to return the land they stole, per US government policy under both Republicans and Democrats, but neither the citizens nor the government of Israel seem prepared to do that.

  137. 137
    redshirt says:

    @Ben Franklin: Sure. I used to be a lot more in Israel’s corner, but the actions of the last 10 years or so are just despicable.

  138. 138
    Ben Franklin says:

    @Viva BrisVegas:

    It means that whenever Israel wants to kick the Palestinians it will first need to look around to see who’s watching.

    This..to the 10th Power.

  139. 139
    General Stuck says:

    @Ben Franklin:

    No walkback. I always say that. It is just your stupid hate that keeps you and your friends from hearing it. Like I said, psychotic.

  140. 140
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Ash Can: if like to think they made the call during that lunch with Romney.

  141. 141
    General Stuck says:

    @Djur:

    I wonder if Plan B is available to minors in Israel. Maybe that’d change General Stuck’s mind. Or he’ll start weeping about how we’re all apologists for child molestation again.

    Like I said. Psychotic. Keep talking. The truth will set you free.

    @polyorchnid octopunch:

    On this one? I’m going with racist.

    We got a “racist” calling folks. Let the hate roll.

  142. 142
    Ben Franklin says:

    @General Stuck:

    I don’t know what fucking race you are, but I pray to the gods you’re not Irish.

    I would have to cut me fuckin’ throat.

  143. 143
    Kilkee says:

    @Suffern ACE: I think it’s safe to say we liberated Czechoslovakia from the Nazis in 1945. The locals were more than happy to see us. Not quite the same thing.

  144. 144
    General Stuck says:

    @Ben Franklin:

    I don’t know what fucking race you are, but I pray to the gods you’re not Irish.

    I would have to cut me fuckin’ throat.

    Irish it is then.

  145. 145
    Chris says:

    @General Stuck:

    Irish it is then.

    I don’t even agree with you, but this made me LOL.

  146. 146
    Pinkamena Panic says:

    @Ben Franklin: Just go with “chuwero”.

  147. 147
    Matto says:

    Israel does a lot of stupid, hurtful things. Many of the import and travel restrictions they place on Gaza are unnecessary and spiteful. They need to top the settlements in the West Bank. And I’m no fan of Netanyahu or Likud.

    But let me know when Hamas recognizes Israel’s right to exist, or when the Palestinians vote Hamas out of power. Until that happens, there can’t be peace. Hamas is not a viable negotiating partner if their stated goal is the destruction of Israel.

  148. 148
    Felonius Monk says:

    @some guy:

    and the long and detailed backlog of war criminal indictments can begin.

    As I understand it, one of the conditions that the Palestinians had to agree to was to NOT pursue any war criminal actions against Israel.

  149. 149
    LD50 says:

    @General Stuck: So you’re dragging out the “most people here really agree with me, they’re just terrorized into silence” line?

  150. 150
    LD50 says:

    @General Stuck: I would ask you how exactly a country with nukes and the most powerful military in the middle east is at risk of getting “driven into the sea”, but my expectations of a rational answer are rather low.

    Oh. That’s me being ‘psychotic’ and ‘an idiot’ again. Sorr-eee.

  151. 151
    Steeplejack says:

    @yopd1:

    You’re right. It should be “sugar daddy state.”

  152. 152
    eemom says:

    @General Stuck:

    Don’t know if you saw last night’s SP&T thread. Believe it or not, as many times as I’ve been through this, I’ve been creeped out all day today.

    The folks here who think anti-Semitism is just a buzz word for the pro-Israel right wing really, really need to go have a look at that thread.

    And for the assholes bent on distorting everything I say, it’s got nothing to do with the topic of this thread, the topic of that thread, Gaza, Palestine-UN or any other actual issue in connection with Israel. It’s just Jew hating, pure and simple.

  153. 153
    Steeplejack says:

    @yopd1:

    Is your snark-o-meter completely broken? By calling the much larger, more powerful United States a “client state” of the much smaller, less powerful Israel, Cole was slyly pointing out what he considers the unduly large influence that Israel has on American policy and domestic politics. He was not being literal.

  154. 154
    General Stuck says:

    @eemom:

    I didn’t read that thread, but have learned to let the made up taunts just float on by.

  155. 155
    akaka says:

    @General Stuck:
    Ethnic cleansing does not mean killing, it also means clearing an area of a particular ethnic group, which Israel has been doing for the last 40 years, pushing Palestinians into shrinking bantustans.

  156. 156
    John Cole says:

    Is your snark-o-meter completely broken? By calling the much larger, more powerful United States a “client state” of the much smaller, less powerful Israel, Cole was slyly pointing out what he considers the unduly large influence that Israel has on American policy and domestic politics. He was not being literal.

    No kidding. Glad to learn I am now a jew-hater though. Hi EEMOM! PLS GO AWAY AGAIN!

  157. 157
    Chris says:

    @General Stuck:

    I didn’t read that thread, but have learned to let the made up taunts just float on by.

    Someone showed up who claimed that there were a number of Jews at the top of the U.S. economic and political elite, and that explained our Israel policy. (I disagreed, pointing out as I still believe that in terms of domestic constituencies, fundiegelicals, not Jews, are the ones who weigh heaviest on our Israel policy, regardless of how many or how few Jews there may be in our elites).

    Because of that one antisemite, and because, in general, there is such a thing as an antisemite, this clearly invalidates any and all criticism of the ludicrous place Israel currently holds in U.S. foreign policy. Much the same way, for example, the existence of Communism invalidates any and all criticism of the capitalist world structure.

    And don’t you dare snark about the fact that the word “antisemite,” much like “communist” and “socialist” in another context, is regularly thrown about as a way to shut down discussion on Israel related issues regardless of what’s being said.

    (Heck, I’ve been called antisemetic – no, not on this blog – for daring to say that Kahane Chai was a terrorist organization. Never mind that it’s the State of Israel that labeled it that in the first place. I guess the Israeli government’s antisemetic too).

  158. 158
    General Stuck says:

    @Chris:

    I’m done with this thread

  159. 159
    Chris says:

    @General Stuck:

    Isn’t that nice?

  160. 160
    General Stuck says:

    @Chris:

    There has been nothing nice about this thread/Per the norm.

    If yer butthurt about something, email Cole.

  161. 161
    Chris says:

    @General Stuck:

    There has been nothing nice about this thread/Per the norm.

    Must be nice to be above it all. Why are you still here, then?

    If yer butthurt about something, email Cole.

    Thanks, but “run and hide behind a bigger person’s skirts” is the current Israeli government’s MO, not mine.

  162. 162
    General Stuck says:

    @Chris:

    Listen jackass. I didn’t call anyone anti semite on this thread, but did receive my share getting called bad stuff that I just ignore. Stop whining. You should have stopped with we don’t agree. Now fuck the fuck off.

  163. 163
    Chris says:

    Listen jackass. I didn’t call anyone anti semite on this thread

    “It is hard to tell what Cole means from one minute to the next. But he likes being in the cool crowd, so they won’t barrage him with nasty emails. The cool crowd on the left, on the blogs, is more a death to Israel crowd than anything else.”

    “A death to Israel crowd.” No. Noooooooo. You didn’t call anyone an antisemite, or anything else of equivalent stature.

    but did receive my share getting called bad stuff that I just ignore.

    Yeah, I can’t imagine why.

    I recommend the “ignore” feature again. You’ve been saying you’re done with this thread ever since you walked into it, but you don’t seem any more interested in following through than the wingers who bleat about “going Galt.”

    You should have stopped with we don’t agree.

    You should’ve stopped before the “death to Israel” ad hominems, so I guess neither of us know what’s good for us.

    Now fuck the fuck off.

    How very devastating.

  164. 164
    mclaren says:

    It’s a way for every other country in the world to express their disgusts with America’s foreign policy, which is meaningless because we’re spending more on our military than all of ’em put together.

  165. 165
    mclaren says:

    @Chris:

    That’s General crackpot fakename for ya. A superbly eloquent spinner of lexical legedermain, he. “Fuck the fuck off.”

    Truly breathtaking. Almost as impressive as Frank Booth from Blue Velvet.

    Suave! Goddamn you’re one suave fucker!

  166. 166
    General Stuck says:

    @mclaren:

    Hot damn Mclaren, you posted probly the most sensible comment on this thread. Bowl me over/The Mayan’s are coming.

    Edit- should have known better.

  167. 167
    General Stuck says:

    @Chris:

    Nite sweetpea. Mclaren is here to tuck you and your teddy bear in.

  168. 168
    Chris says:

    @mclaren:

    I LOL’d again. This HAS been a good thread, all things considered. And a true point on “what it all means.”

    @General Stuck:

    Yet another variation of “I’m out of here?” I give you points for creativity, if nothing else.

  169. 169
    Chris says:

    @General Stuck:

    Edit- should have known better.

    Story of your life…

  170. 170
    General Stuck says:

    @Chris:

    So you’re one of those that has to have the last word? Amirite?

  171. 171
    Chris says:

    @General Stuck:

    Nah, just couldn’t resist that one.

  172. 172
    eemom says:

    @John Cole:

    Wow. Right on cue when I mention assholes bent on distorting everything I say, heeeeere’s Cole.

    Frankly Cole, I would have thought even you might have the decency not to do that in this circumstance. I do not throw around terms like Jew hater. I was referring to the persons in the thread last night who made remarks so brazenly and sickeningly anti-Semitic that I presumed even you — self-proclaimed combatter of racism as you are — would acknowledge it for what it was.

    My gripe with you in this context — which I think I pretty clearly expressed — is not that YOU are a Jew hater, but rather that you belittle the concept of anti-Semitism every single fucking time you talk about Israel, insinuating that it has NO existence other than something wingnuts use to silence criticism of Israel.

    But last night, actual anti-Semitism in all its ugliness was on full display here on your blog. Maybe it’s too much to expect that you’d react to that as loudly and self-righteously as you supposedly do to racism — but I might have thought you’d at least have the decency to take the point about your belittlement of anti-Semitism — which at best is no different from than the attitudes of the assholes who show up on ABL’s threads to mock the concept that every criticism of Obama is racist.

    This is a new low for you.

  173. 173
    Medicine Man says:

    @General Stuck: There’s also been a distinct change in Israel’s demographics in recent decades. The decline of the Ashkenazi elite in favor of Russian emigres has had an impact on the tenor of Israeli government. I understand that much of Avignor Leiberman’s support comes from this demographic and they are more authoritarian than the generations of Israelis that preceded them.

  174. 174
    El Cid says:

    This UN GA vote after the Israeli militarists’ wildly anti-productive recent attack on Gaza was, by no accident, the occasion for the most prominent emergence of the Israeli peace movements in years, leading demonstrations among anti-militarist Israeli Jews in favor of the granting of observer status to Palestine.

    The numbers weren’t huge — they very rarely are — but the context is significant. (And in great contract to Susan Rice’s disgusting and sneering comments at the UN notwithstanding.)

    300 Israelis rally in support of Palestinian statehood
    __
    Leftist activists gather in Tel Aviv to express support of Abbas’ bid for UN recognition
    __
    Gilad Morag / 11.29.12, 21:56 / YNet News
    __
    Some 300 leftist activists participated in a rally in support of the Palestinians’ bid for UN recognition in Tel Aviv’s Rothschild Boulevard on Thursday.
    __
    The rally was organized by several organizations including Gush Shalom, Peace Now, Hadash and Meretz representatives. The protesters chanted slogans in support of the two-state solution and carried signs reading “Palestinian state – Israeli interest” and “Israel yes.”
    __
    “What is happening today is an historic day for the Palestinian people and for us,” said Uri Avneri from Gush Shalom. “If we choose the future we must help the Palestinians build their state.”
    __
    Former Foreign Ministry director Dr. Alon Liel said, “As of today there is a Palestinian state. As of today we no longer control the life of a nation but the life of a separate state.”

    That list of organizations comprises the major groups and political forces (the first two activist groups, the second two political parties)

    Clearly though these Israeli Jewish and Israeli Arab citizens are mainly about their death-to-Israel obsession.

    But I’m sure that if only the Palestinians would shut up and just behave better, someday, maybe in a year, or 10 years, or 20 years, or 50 years, Israel and the US might start to feel like it was time to begin allowing the Palestinians to beg for approval to be permitted to negotiate for some sort of future ‘state’ consisting of exactly whatever Israeli leadership feels like they don’t want and under whatever conditions Israeli militarists and their paramilitary settler wing desire.

    Another wacky anti-Israeli extremist who doesn’t understand the sophisticated matters involved like US and Israeli diplomats do said:

    Washington – Despite an aggressive campaign by the United States to head off a UN vote on the Palestinian Authority’s bid for an upgraded status, the General Assembly was expected to grant the request on Thursday.
    __
    And former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert says he sees no reason to resist the move.
    __
    “I believe that the Palestinian request from the United Nations is congruent with the basic concept of the two-state solution. Therefore, I see no reason to oppose it,” Olmert wrote in an e-mail message to Daily Beast reporter Bernard Avisahi.
    __
    “Once the United Nations will lay the foundation for this idea, we in Israel will have to engage in a serious process of negotiations, in order to agree on specific borders based on the 1967 lines, and resolve the other issues,” he added.
    __
    The former prime minister, who held peace talks with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas during his term, further posited that the UN resolution presents an opportunity to prop up moderate Palestinian leaders.
    __
    “It is time to give a hand to, and encourage, the moderate forces amongst the Palestinians. Abu-Mazen and Salam Fayyad need our help,” he said, referring to the PA’s president and prime minister. “It’s time to give it.”

    If it were solely up to them, the “pro-Israeli” supporters of asshole militarist expansion and colonial repression would protect and safeguard Israel into perpetual war and occupation forever until its collapse.

    So, now, after the super-great idea for Israeli leadership and their US cheerleaders and suppliers to once again rocket-bomb the shit out of Gaza for security, the militarist expansionist division of Israeli nationalism managed to achieve:

    (1) The recognition of Palestine before the UN General Assembly as unofficial observers (who may now ask for sovereign recognition in the future), something which both the Israeli and US leadership repeatedly, loudly, and dangerously threatened the Palestinian leadership against;

    (2) The greatest increase in support for Hamas not just in Gaza itself but in the West Bank and in the region for its ability to (entirely predictably) survive and respond to (in ineffective but as ever civilian-targeting manner) the Israeli assault that has been seen perhaps in Hamas’ history;

    (3) The greatest increase in support for the actual leader of Hamas, Khaled Meshal, which has been seen since Israel tried and failed to assassinate him when their nitwit assassins were caught in Jordan and the King and Bill Clinton had to force Netanyahu (in ’97) to deliver the antidote and then to free Hamas’ founder Sheikh Yassin. Including this being the 2nd time Meshal appeared (in the context that people see these things) to have withstood a Netanyahu attack and won by surviving.

    (4) The first real negotiations of lessening Israel’s asshole lunatic blockade of the starving (often literally) Gaza in the better part of a decade, including being able to fish in a bit more of the Mediterranean so as to once again get a bit of protein to these people.

    Great job! I’m sure Hamas eagerly awaits the next great, clever move by such dedicated protectors of Israelis!

  175. 175
    Interrobang says:

    I have to say, I’m very disappointed with Harper. Olmert does seem to have his head screwed on straight. The tiny whacko minority that swings a lot of weight in the Knesset needs to go, somehow (another reason not to support Tzipi Livni’s new party). I feel this was more or less inevitable, although it could be construed as looking like tacit approval for twelve years of lobbing rockets at the Israelis, which I’m also not too happy about.

    I actually know Israelis who live in the West Bank. You know why they live in the West Bank? It’s not because they’re slavering anti-Palestinian ghouls rubbing their hands together at the prospect of displacing the filthy Aravim, it’s because they work in Jerusalem, and there has been a huge housing shortage in Israel for years (meaning that what you or I would think of as a normal city house sells for about a million dollars US, no word of a lie), and living in a yishuv means they can actually have a house with a yard on a two-white-collar-job income. Which is kind of a big deal if you have four or five or seven kids, as many of them do. Your other alternative is to pay out the ass for an apartment roughly the size of a postage stamp (as does another friend of mine).

    There are way more structural issues going on here than just geopolitical.

    FWIW, I work for a formerly-Israel-based IT company that just got bought by a giant American IT company. Overall, the Israelis’ policies were way better — more time off as a matter of course, and much, much less bureaucracy.

  176. 176
    Peggy says:

    @Interrobang: Thanks for explaining why Israelis have so thoroughly colonized the West Bank. Government subsidies made it cheaper to live on stolen Palestinean land. No one needed to think about how they were setting up an irreconcilable coflict that has now matured into almost the whole world siding against Israel. The government quite consciously designed this process.

    those high officials are mostly retired or dead, having left a mess behind.

  177. 177
    yopd1 says:

    @Steeplejack: I make one statement about him saying client state, and I get a deluge of Israel is the evil state that is ethnically cleansing the West Bank and Gaza of all the poor, innocent Palestinians who have done nothing wrong. So no, my snark meter is just fine. I just happen to believe that there are two sides that do wrong, and yes, if you are purposefully targeting civilian areas with missiles at the rate of 40-60 a day, the other side will probably decide to bomb the fuck out of you as well.

    Tell me all of you who know the psyche so well of the Israelis and Palestinians. If the Israelis, just went back to the ’67 borders or traded the equivalent in land/resources to the Palestinians, would the missile attacks stop? If the Palestinians stopped firing missiles for a month or two, would the Israelis begin serious talks of statehood?

    As for Cole, popping up at the end. You seem to always have to throw in the snarky comment on Israel being overseer of our government. Just like the RWNJ always have to throw in the African Americans only vote to keep the government dollars coming.

  178. 178
    Full Metal Wingnut says:

    @yopd1: MY COUNTERFACTUALS ARE BETTER THAN YOUR COUNTERFACTUALS

  179. 179
    Phoenician in a time of Romans says:

    @Mandalay:

    One way to make it stop would be to return the land they stole, per US government policy under both Republicans and Democrats, but neither the citizens nor the government of Israel seem prepared to do that.

    Oh noes, but you don’t understandz – each and every Palestinian is a fanatic barbarian dedicated to ripping Israeli women and children to pieces WITH THEIR BARE TEETH – and that’s why Israel has to keep on stealing their land.

  180. 180
    Phoenician in a time of Romans says:

    @Interrobang:

    I actually know Israelis who live in the West Bank. You know why they live in the West Bank? It’s not because they’re slavering anti-Palestinian ghouls rubbing their hands together at the prospect of displacing the filthy Aravim, it’s because they work in Jerusalem, and there has been a huge housing shortage in Israel for years (meaning that what you or I would think of as a normal city house sells for about a million dollars US, no word of a lie), and living in a yishuv means they can actually have a house with a yard on a two-white-collar-job income.

    Ah, right. So they have nothing against the folks to their east *personally*, they’re just in search of a bit of living room?

    Wait – why does that seem familiar…?

  181. 181
    Steve Crickmore says:

    @eemom: Now that you have made common cause with the evangelists on a greater Israel or for them USrael how to you reconcile that christianity from it’s own written gospels, which it won’t ever amend, is inextricably laced with anti semitism, such as the fictional inclusion of a disciple called Judas, “the betrayer,” who conviently, according to George Steiner, was invented to give authority and credence to the intense anti-semitism of early christianity. Also, many of the American pro Likud or Zionist sympathisers have a history of voicing clearly anti-semitic statements. Nearly all of us on this site are not anti semitic, but pro jewish against the irrational and jealous loathing of jews which has a long and disgraceful history, especially from Christian countries, and conservatives, even in America, but we are anti- zionist, in the sense that forcing the Palestinians to live in a few Bantu aparteid settlements which aren’t contingous to order, in order to achieve the aim of greater prophetic Israel, or in order to give them simply more land than they already have, is not just.

  182. 182
    Donald says:

    “You cannot ignore rockets, even small ones raining down into your neighborhoods, and over time, the citizens of any country on earth would demand their government do what is necessary to make it stop.”

    I’m late to this thread, but the trouble with that is that it gives the wrong impression–that Israel is just minding its own business and is constantly bombarded by all these unprovoked rocket attacks. Obviously there are rocket attacks, but there are also Israeli attacks on innocent Gazan civilians, both Gaza fishermen and people in the buffer zone which Israel created INSIDE GAZA (I screamed that part because people don’t seem to realize how weird it is that Israel designates a portion of Gaza to be essentially a zone where they can kill you if they want.) Plus the blockade, which goes far beyond just an attempt to keep out munitions (and doesn’t seem to have worked on that score anyway.)

    I’d be more sympathetic to Israel if they were more forthcoming about their crimes, but there is nearly always some sort of whitewash. The most common version is that Palestinians initiate violence and Israel responds. This is flatly false. It doesn’t excuse the Palestinian crimes (morality doesn’t work that way), but Israel supporters obviously don’t want to admit just how much blame their side really shares for the conflict.

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