Turn and Face the Strain

Why does the New York Times start to sound like a teenage girl’s Facebook page whenever Israel gets into its next war? “You guys, Israel has it tough. That battlefield is changing, and the world is growing more dangerous. Leave Israel alone!”

I’m no expert in the Gaza conflict, and I certainly don’t know enough to have a judgment about which side is “in the right”. But I do know that that the minute Israel is involved in any military action, every US media outlet drops the guise of skeptical reporting and goes more all-in than some Israeli newspapers. That leaves me reading the Guardian, Al-Jazeera English and Haaretz to try to at least hear what Hamas has to say, and to see a few images of the hell that’s being rained down on the other side of the fence.






126 replies
  1. 1
    cathyx says:

    And the US and Israel seem to be the ones making the world a more dangerous place.

  2. 2
    Baud says:

    Intractable conflict is intractable.

    Repeat ad infinitum.

  3. 3
    c u n d gulag says:

    Maybe if Israel wants more people on its side, it needs to stop its quest for “Lebensraum,” and its effort to become an Apartheid state.

    I want my old NY Times back!
    (And I mean the one from the 60’s to early 80’s – yeah, I’m old!).

  4. 4
    beltane says:

    I am sorry Haaretz is now behind a paywall because US media, and also the BBC, are useless. A British filmaker working in Gaza had a livefeed up on UStream yesterday, capturing the unfiltered sights and especially the sounds of what is going on. Andrew Sullivan has also been pretty good on this and can be counted on the provide useful links.

    The NYT just makes me ashamed.

  5. 5
    Anonymous At Work says:

    Why is it that on domestic issues with clear-cut answers/solutions, like “Does climate change exist?”, the NYT refuses to take sides but will always takes sides in the Israel-Palestine conflicts?

  6. 6
    cathyx says:

    @Anonymous At Work: Can you say ‘Right Wing Rag’?

  7. 7
    beltane says:

    @Anonymous At Work: Yes, when it comes to I/P we don’t even get the standard “he said/she said” both-sides-do-it crap. At least with the internet we don’t really need to rely on the NYT.

  8. 8
    JPL says:

    Read the Guardian if you want up to date news.

  9. 9
    BobS says:

    I don’t usually watch network news, but last night I found myself in front of a tv tuned to ABC with Diane Sawyer breathlessly presenting this latest Israeli tantrum as a conflict between two evenly matched sides when in fact it’s a semi-independent subsidiary of US Empires Inc and one of the worlds most powerful militaries vs an opponent with less firepower than many American big-city police departments.

  10. 10
    Amir Khalid says:

    I wonder: does Israel represent itself, in some way, as an embattled outpost of Western civilisation in the Middle East? If it does, that might help explain some of the bias towards it in the West; and this kind of bias in the new York Times.

  11. 11
    JoyfulA says:

    @c u n d gulag: In the early 60s, the Herald Tribune was better but failed for lack of ads.

  12. 12
    General Stuck says:

    Extremists being extreme

  13. 13

    Did you guys see this UK report saying Israel systemically tortures children? It came out in June/July of this year. Seems Israel sees all Palestinian children as “potential terrorists” and uses this as the reasoning to abuse them.
    It was covered in the UK.

    https://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2012/06/28/new-report-dealing-with-palestinian-children-in-military-custody/

  14. 14
    MattMinus says:

    I’m no expert in the Gaza conflict, and I certainly don’t know enough to have a judgment about which side is “in the right”.

    Really? Do you think it might be the one using massively disproportionate force to maintain it’s apartheid state?

  15. 15
    Mark S. says:

    Ch-ch-Changes!

  16. 16
    GregB says:

    Does anyone remember how the Russia/Georgia conflict was framed?

    Massive and strong Russia picking on tiny weak Georgia.

  17. 17
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Amir Khalid: I think that has long been implicit: Israel is Western, Israel is white, Israel is modern not backward, etc.

  18. 18
    Mark S. says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    I wonder: does Israel represent itself, in some way, as an embattled outpost of Western civilisation in the Middle East?

    That’s the vibe I get from places like National Review, where they don’t support Israel because they think a Jewish state is a prerequisite for Jeebus to come back or something. I wouldn’t be surprised if Victor Davis Hanson has some article up right now about how this is exactly like the Greeks at the Battle of Thermopylae. “Historians” like Hanson see history as the struggle between the West white people vs. brown people.

  19. 19
    beltane says:

    @Amir Khalid: That is how they portray their behavior to western media and their evangelical Christian allies. However, underlying it all is a truly nasty Jewish supremacist ideology among the settler groups that is just as abhorrent as any other supremacist ideology. The Likkudniks are especially venomous towards other Jews who dissent with their way of thinking. I never saw it first hand until a couple of days ago on DKos when a defender of Netanyahu implied that my mother was worse than Hitler because she married a non-Jew and produced not-sufficiently-Jewish children.

    These people are nuts.

  20. 20
    Cermet says:

    But aren’t there more Jews living in New York than live in the country of Israel? So, I would think the NY Times would write with a strong pro-war spin.

    Besides, if Israel wants to stop rocket attacks from the world’s largest prison that they constructed and make sure the prisoners are living in a semi-hell (almost two million prisoners living in 140 sq. miles of desert with no access to most of the outside world), well, why shouldn’t they do this? I mean three Israel civilians are dead by rocket attacks so if twenty or so Israel soldiers die attacking/holding Gaza it is well worth the cost.

    We don’t count the loss of prisoners so let us enjoy the neat show of bombs with camera’s hitting targets (even if some children are in the cross-hairs as well … .) Seriously, if Israel wanted peace, it would be trivial – stop the settlements and allow the two State solution; for that agreement, I bet they could still control the defense of the borders as well as all military air space control rights.

  21. 21
    Mino says:

    Israeli election coming up, folks. They read the same playbook as the Republicans under Bush.

  22. 22
    Mark S. says:

    @Cermet:

    I bet they could still control the defense of the borders as well as all military air space control rights.

    I know they could. They did it in 1948, 1967, and 1973, and now they have tens of billions of dollars of the best military equipment thanks to us.

  23. 23
    jdrs0819 says:

    There are no “two-sides” to this issue. Israel has been a warmongering POS since at least 1967, and arguably for its entire existence; it was founded on the basis of an ethnic cleansing of the region, after all. Every country knows it, which is why Israel is as popular as North Korea and Iran to the rest of the world; only here and parts of Africa do a majority of citizens view Israel favorably.

    This is nothing but a slow-moving genocide. A single – Jewish – state in all of historic Palestine was Ben Gurion’s plan, and was the plan behind the colonization (euphemistically called “settlements”, or worse yet “neighborhoods”) of the Occupied Palestinian Territories since 1967 and before.

    The only reason their plans haven’t worked to date has been those bloody Palestinians. No matter what Israel does to them — the blockade, the bombings, the assassinations — they will not leave.

  24. 24
    beltane says:

    @jdrs0819: Since the Israeli foreign minister and his political party are quite open about his desire to perpetrate ethnic cleansing on the Palestinians, I’m not sure why the US media feels the need to provide cover for them. The whole thing disgusts me.

  25. 25
    Laertes says:

    Wait. Has it been “strain” this whole time?

  26. 26
    Corner Stone says:

    every US media outlet drops the guise of skeptical reporting

    When was this again?
    Or are you referring to their he said/she said cloak as the guise?

  27. 27
    Jay in Oregon says:

    Maybe if we dubbed Chris Hemsworth’s dialogue into Arabic and Photoshop the North Korean uniforms into IDF uniforms, people might get the point?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoqlBHSePw0

  28. 28
    Corner Stone says:

    Oh Rep Nadler. Why you gotta be bringing up the IP on UP?

  29. 29
    Thoughtful David says:

    I’m a planner; it’s in my job description. I do strategic planning, long-term planning, medium-term, short-term. I know something about planning.
    So I think about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict from a planner’s standpoint.
    When doing strategic planning you set your goals, then design strategies to achieve them. I think for Israel, as well as pretty much any country, the mail goals would be:
    1. Peace
    2. Security of that peace
    3. Prosperity

    In that order. You might add others, but these are probably the main ones for any country.

    Once you’ve got your goals and apply your strategies, you have to come back after some time and evaluate your strategies, see if they’re achieving the goals.

    So, Israel has been in existence for about 60 years. Let’s say, we go back and evaluate the progress towards the goals in, say, 1967. How were they doing? Making progress on No. 3, none on 1 and 2. How about in 1990? More progress on No. 3, still none on 1 and 2. Wasn’t it about time to change strategies, if you aren’t making progress?

    How about now? More progress on No. 3, still none, maybe even regression, on Nos. 1 and 2. Isn’t it bloody well time to change strategies? The ones the Israelis are using obviously aren’t working. Doing the same thing over and over with the same result…you know the quote.

    I don’t know the answers, I’m not an expert on the Middle East. But I can tell you this: Continuing to do as they have been isn’t going to get the Israelis any closer to peace and security. You have to change before someone makes the changes for you.

  30. 30
    PeakVT says:

    @Thoughtful David: The problem is that “peace” isn’t the main goal, at least for those who control the government of Israel. The goals are: 1) permanent annexation of Judea, Samaria, and all of Jerusalem, 2) the military power to maintain the new borders, and 3) enough prosperity to acquire the necessary military power. They’re moving forward on 1, and have achieved 2 and 3. The only thing preventing goal 1 from being accomplished is the pesky Palestinians.

  31. 31
    Thlayli says:

    Whoopee, it’s time for another round of Liberal Anti-Zionist Bingo! Let’s check the card…

    “Apartheid” (multiple)

    “American puppet” (#9)

    “Israel shouldn’t be there to start with” (#23)

    Still waiting on “There were Jewish terrorists once”, and “Don’t call me an anti-Semite!”. I should have those squares filled in by post #50.

  32. 32
    Brachiator says:

    @cathyx:

    And the US and Israel seem to be the ones making the world a more dangerous place.

    I think that the Syrians and many other people around the world getting their butts kicked by authoritarian regimes would disagree with you on this.

    @Cermet:

    Seriously, if Israel wanted peace, it would be trivial – stop the settlements and allow the two State solution; for that agreement, I bet they could still control the defense of the borders as well as all military air space control rights.

    Given the tone of some of the comments here, I wonder how many Balloon Juicers favor a two state solution?

    I think that has long been implicit: Israel is Western, Israel is white, Israel is modern not backward, etc.

    Yeah some fools try to play on this. Romney even worked this angle in one of his dumbass gaffes. And there are plenty of liberal fools who insist on seeing Jews as invading Europeans trying to take over the land of indigenous brown people But the Israelis and the Palestinians are largely the same people fighting over the same piece of land.

  33. 33
    some guy says:

    the Times cheerleading for Israel is old news, as they say.

    Ethan Bronner? the ex-Jerusalem bureau chief with a son in the IDF? Isabel Kershner, Helen Cooper?

    if you want to hear the official position of the IDF then the NY Times is your go to rag.

  34. 34
    Thoughtful David says:

    @PeakVT: I don’t disagree that the Israelis have other goals, but I maintain that my 1, 2, and 3 are still the top ones. You can’t expand if you can’t hold what you’ve got. I think they’ve actually regressed on maintaining what they’ve got. At present, they can only maintain it because they have greater power than any of their enemies. That won’t be true forever, and once one of the enemies is stronger, the enemy will probably want to overrun them. So they’re regressing on No. 2.

    (Military power is a strategy, not a goal. It helps you achieve the goal.)

  35. 35
    MattMinus says:

    @Thlayli:

    First off, why do you say anti-Zionist like it’s a bad thing? Oh, I see what you did there,you’re trying to conflate it with antisemitism, aren’t you?

    Anyway, please, explain to me how the Palestinians are not living under an apartheid regime.

    I’ll even supply you with a handy checklist:

    For the purpose of the present Convention, the term ‘the crime of apartheid’, which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practiced in southern Africa, shall apply to the following inhumane acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them:

    Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person
    By murder of members of a racial group or groups; CHECK
    By the infliction upon the members of a racial group or groups of serious bodily or mental harm, by the infringement of their freedom or dignity, or by subjecting them to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment;

    CHECK

    By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a racial group or groups;

    CHECK

    Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living conditions calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in part;

    CHECK

    Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognised trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association;

    CHECK

    Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof;

    CHECK

    Exploitation of the labour of the members of a racial group or groups, in particular by submitting them to forced labour;

    Persecution of organizations and persons, by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid.

    CHECK

    Your move.

  36. 36
    some guy says:

    And there are plenty of liberal fools who insist on seeing Jews as invading Europeans trying to take over the land of indigenous brown people But the Israelis and the Palestinians are largely the same people fighting over the same piece of land.

    bzzzzt, incorrect. but thanks for playing. Johnny, what fabulous gift do we have for our contestant?

  37. 37
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @beltane:

    The irony in all this is that it replicates another group that worried itself sick about “racial purity” some 80 years ago. That had elaborate ways of telling how “right” an individual was based on how far back the bloodline was polluted by inferiors.

  38. 38
    some guy says:

    @MattMinus:

    what’s amazing to me is the gyrations the Zionists have to twist themselves into to deny the very nature of the state they are defending.

  39. 39
    Corner Stone says:

    @Brachiator:

    And there are plenty of liberal fools who insist on seeing Jews as invading Europeans trying to take over the land of indigenous brown people

    Any reference or cite for this contention?
    Thanks

  40. 40
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Brachiator:

    But the Israelis and the Palestinians are largely the same people fighting over the same piece of land.

    Um, no.

    Israel is made up, for the most part, of immigrants who are Jewish, but are otherwise European in nature. Especially since Russian Jews flooded the country in the 90’s.

    Long, long ago you might make that case. But Israel was created in a fit of Holocaust guilt as place for the survivors to go.

  41. 41
    dedc79 says:

    I looked at the Times website and they have an op/ed from an israeli saying that bombing the hamas official was a bad idea and an article from the perspective of a gazan family who lost loved ones. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11.....&_r=0

    If you’re going to argue the bias of the Times, at least include all the articles on the subject instead of picking and choosing.

  42. 42
    lacp says:

    Interesting Asia Times analysis that posits the latest violence as Bibi’s attempt to undermine President Obama’s Syrian and Iranian policies.

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/M.....7Ak03.html

  43. 43
    dedc79 says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Approximately 2.7 million israeli jews are sephardi meaning that they come from the middle east,north africa, or spain. You can see the breakdown here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews

  44. 44
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    Brad DeLong has a short video on his site this AM – Iron Dome to a Bossa Nova beat.

    http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/.....ition.html (includes link to 1:35 video)

    :-/

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  45. 45
    Feudalism Now! says:

    This is a political campaign. Bibi loves him some Clausewitz. There will not be a two state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. The conflict is just too useful. The settlements continue, the random freedom/assassination bombs stir up the sporadic rocket firing to warrant another military incursion. The Likudniks get what they need.
    Now Hamas also gets what it needs. They get better recruitment, more aid from Iran and other regional concerns, and a bit of sympathy from Europe and Asia. The Palestinian Authority gets even more marginalized and cornered as an impotent broker to negotiate with.
    There needs to be a cease fire. There needs to be sanctions on Israel until the settlements stop. There needs to be a treaty brokered by the UN because the Israel and Palestine can not rectify this right now. Why wait another generation to bring peace to Jerusalem?

  46. 46
    dww44 says:

    @beltane: Another example of Jews turning on Jews occurred the other day in Atlanta when Peter Bienart’s scheduled speech at a Jewish Book festival was cancelled at the very last minute. The speech was hastily rescheduled for the Margaret Mitchell house.

    On the opening weekend of its popular, three-week book festival, the Marcus Jewish Community Center of Atlanta found itself defending its decision to dis-invite the author of a contentious book about the future of Israeli democracy

    http://www.accessatlanta.com/n.....k-f/nSt93/

    Then there was Jerry Nadler on this morning’s “Up with Chris Hayes” saying that the U.N.’s refusal to condemn Hamas for its bombings of Hamas.inferring it was their actions that set off this latest round of attacks and counter attacks.

    I truly despair of the situation there and wish that somehow all the voices for peace could somehow join together and bring about a permanent end to this tragic mess.

  47. 47
    Brachiator says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Any reference or cite for this contention?

    Plenty of prior Balloon Juice comments. You know this.

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Israel is made up, for the most part, of immigrants who are Jewish, but are otherwise European in nature. Especially since Russian Jews flooded the country in the 90’s.

    European ain’t an ethnicity. And as another poster has noted, you ignore Sephardic Jews, and even Eithiopian Jews.

    But Israel was created in a fit of Holocaust guilt as place for the survivors to go.

    Actually, the Jews themselves were more active in establishing Israel than you seem to want to admit. The rest of the world either had to acknowledge Israel, or oppose it.

    Holocaust guilt is the uninformed retro explanation. Kinda like wingnuts who ascribe Obama’s election victories to white guilt over American racism.

  48. 48
    kerFuFFler says:

    @Cermet: “Seriously, if Israel wanted peace, it would be trivial – stop the settlements and allow the two State solution; for that agreement, I bet they could still control the defense of the borders as well as all military air space control rights.”

    Seriously?

    In the early 90’s when Israel and Palestine came very close to a peace deal with 2 states, Yasser Arafat rejected a generous offer and was greeted by cheering throngs of Palestinians who wanted to make no concessions. Rabin, who had offered more than many Israelis were willing to countenance was assassinated shortly thereafter.

    Assuming that coming up with an agreement would be trivial is showing a contempt for history and the labors of dedicated peace negotiators. Sure, recent Israeli behavior has been aggressive, but the case can be made that they no longer believe a peace deal is possible. And given that Hamas has steadfastly refused to drop language that calls for the complete destruction of Israel, they may be right.

    After Yasser refused the deal, one of the key Palestinian negotiators wept at the lost opportunity for peace. So did a lot of us…..

  49. 49
    Corner Stone says:

    I generally like hearing other viewpoints on shows like Rachel or MHP but they should choose more wisely. It just ruins the entire segment when you have a rigid ideologue spouting the same disconnected from reality talking points each time he’s been rebutted.

  50. 50
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @dedc79:

    From that wiki article:

    Today, Ashkenazi Jews (who originate from Europe and the Americas) constitute the largest single ethnic group among Israeli Jews and consist of about 3,000,000[34] people living in Israel. About 1,100,000 of them are descended from or are immigrants from the former Soviet Union who returned from the diaspora after the fall of the Former Soviet Union 1991 (about 300,000 of them are not considered to be Jewish under halakha). Most of the other 1,800,000 are descended from the first Zionist settlers in the land of Israel, and Holocaust survivors with an additional 200,000 having immigrated or descended from immigrants from English speaking countries, South Africa, and South America since the founding of the state. They have played a prominent role in the economy, media, and politics of Israel since its founding, and tend to be the most affluent ethnic group in Israel.

  51. 51
    NotMax says:

    @Mino

    Israeli election coming up, folks

    Prescisely.

  52. 52
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Brachiator:

    Well, of course the Jews were active in the creation of Israel.

    Menachem Begin was part of a rag tag group of freedom fighters blowing up British barracks.

    It’s really too bad that the fact that the Zionist movement itself was founded and nurtured by European Jews doesn’t lend itself to the “colonized by Europeans” meme, now isn’t it?

  53. 53
    Corner Stone says:

    @Brachiator:

    Plenty of prior Balloon Juice comments. You know this

    No, I do not know this. Which is why I asked. Because you have the random habit of pulling the “a lot of liberals feel” or “a lot of liberals say” and then trotting out some complete bullshit.
    Not only do I not recall a significant number of comments here making that case, there are about 6 liberals on this blog. I would hardly scoop random commenters into the liberal category if I read them here.

  54. 54
    amy c says:

    It concerns me how quickly your intelligence flees the scene when Israel comes up, mistermix. Your posts on the matter are barely coherent. Here you take screenshots of two headlines in the NYT – not even half of what the NYT is saying about Israel right now, never mind anyone else, and submit it as proof that “every US media outlet” is “all in.” Quite a logical leap, there.

    Please tell me that you can at least see that this is incredibly weak sauce. You can do better.

  55. 55
    jdrs0819 says:

    @kerFuFFler: If you call the deal of the 1990’s “generous,” you’re insane. Arafat got scammed. Just like every other deal.

    Disclosure: Nope, I don’t support the two-state solution. I did for a time. Now I see it as not only unjust (which I always had, but I figured an unjust solution was better than constant war), but also unworkable.

  56. 56
    kerFuFFler says:

    @Thoughtful David: I don’t know the answers, I’m not an expert on the Middle East. But I can tell you this: Continuing to do as they have been isn’t going to get the Israelis any closer to peace and security. You have to change before someone makes the changes for you.

    For decades the Israelis pursued a negotiated settlement and two state solution without “getting any closer to peace and security”. Unfortunately they have changed course and have become more aggressive. That won’t work either in the long run, but with the incessant provocation of rocket launches it is easy to see why the populace has turned to military solutions.

  57. 57
    kerFuFFler says:

    @Thoughtful David: I don’t know the answers, I’m not an expert on the Middle East. But I can tell you this: Continuing to do as they have been isn’t going to get the Israelis any closer to peace and security. You have to change before someone makes the changes for you.

    For decades the Israelis pursued a negotiated settlement and two state solution without “getting any closer to peace and security”. Unfortunately they have changed course and have become more aggressive. That won’t work either in the long run, but with the incessant provocation of rocket launches it is easy to see why the populace has turned to military solutions.

  58. 58
    Brachiator says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Menachem Begin was part of a rag tag group of freedom fighters blowing up British barracks.

    Given some of your past comments about the utility of guillotines, I would think you would be all in favor of blowing up British barracks.

    @Corner Stone:

    Not only do I not recall a significant number of comments here making that case, there are about 6 liberals on this blog. I would hardly scoop random commenters into the liberal category if I read them here.

    Ah, the “no true Scotsman” thing.

  59. 59
    Cermet says:

    @lacp: Here I call foul. Last I check there were rockets (a few hundred) being fired at Israel over the last few weeks by Hamas; I am against Israeli settlements 100% but there is no way that Israel started this coming fight because of Obama’s peace plans. Yes, what Israel has done to Gaza has forced Hamas’ hand but Israel did not plan this nor the attack because of Obama.
    The President has to decide himself on the currently working plans against Iran. I don’t really see how Syria is involved at all.

  60. 60
    Corner Stone says:

    @Brachiator:
    Much easier to have said, “There have been comments here that say” but you couldn’t help yourself with the kneejerk liberal bashing.
    Just farting in the general direction of unquoted comments from unspecified previous BJ threads is very definitive. Thanks

  61. 61
    Cermet says:

    @kerFuFFler: Here I also call foul – Israel has MOST certainly achieved far greater peace and safety by reaching agreements with its ‘enemies’. When was the last real war or group of countries attacking Israel on land? Egypt and Syria have been pretty much at peace and the two state solution had bought a lot of good will towards Israel, that is, until the settlements started and then Israeli’s became so hostile towards the Palestinians and enforced such harsh measures in the so-called Palestinian State that Israel controls and humiliates the people there as it continues to steal its best lands and water rights.

  62. 62
    dedc79 says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Yes but you didn’t say israel was a little over half european jews, you said it was mostly european jews. The fact that close to half of israeli jews themselves come from the middle east is an inconvenient fact for many (and i’m not saying this includes you).

  63. 63
    lacp says:

    @Cermet: Well, that’s one view as to how events are unfolding in Gaza. Here’s another: http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/.....fires.html

  64. 64
    Ben says:

    @jdrs0819:

    So Jews are the only people who can’t have a state? Lovely.

    I’m no fan of Likud, but come on now.

  65. 65
    SRW1 says:

    Israel and Hamas can turn this shit on whenever it suits their purpose. Turning it off is a bit more tricky, but that is what the US and the Egyptians are for. So a good question to ask always is ‘Cui bono’. There are elections coming up in Israel and the answer, just as last time around, is the Israeli government.

    Oh, and if you think the US media is kind of biased, what about Congress?

  66. 66
    Jamey says:

    @MattMinus: That’s part of the picture. What muddies the waters is that the PA and Hamas continue, mostly out of necessity, to serve as a proxy for other states that want to build cred, annoy America, and punish Israel. This gives Israel (presumed) cover to, basically, imprison the entire Palestinian nation.

    There are a lot of first steps that Israel could and should take to initiate a real solution (reverse settlements policy, for one). But by accepting support from the likes of Iran, the PA and Hamas both are: getting no closer to tactical parity; and definitely empowering Israel’s supporters (e.g., NYT) with “casus belli.”

    Thus, no solution. Neither side, pardon the expression, is inclined to be Christ-like… But there has to be a point at which the civilized world demands that Israel stop mistreating its prisoners–because that’s what Gaza is, a garrisoned homeland. There can be no other first step.

  67. 67
    beltane says:

    This is just incredibly depressing http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/.....lence.html

  68. 68
    Roy G. says:

    Both sides do it – the religio-nationalist jailers armed to the teeth with billions of dollars of arms AND the imprisoned, malnourished captives who improvise junkyard munitions. SO THERE.

  69. 69
    Brachiator says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Much easier to have said, “There have been comments here that say” but you couldn’t help yourself with the kneejerk liberal bashing.

    I pretty much bash all conservatives. I regularly bash liberal fools. Not the same thing as bashing all liberals, even if this sets your spidey sense tingling.

    Just farting in the general direction of unquoted comments from unspecified previous BJ threads is very definitive.

    If you regularly follow Balloon Juice threads on Israel, and I know you do, you know that there is a drab predictability to many of the comments. And this echoes commentary regularly found elsewhere in the media that tries to portray Jews as European interlopers descending upon hapless native Palestinians. And yeah, a lot of this comes from people who identify themselves as lefties. Deny it, dispute it, ignore it. No big deal.

  70. 70
    LD50 says:

    @Thlayli: So how long before you start calling everyone else Nazis?

  71. 71
    Some Loser says:

    For those who would like a little information about this conflict, there is an excellent thread about it on the SomethingAwful forums here: http://forums.somethingawful.c.....t409660584

    The post above gives a nice little summary of the history of Hamas and Fatah as well as explaining the current situation a little.

    You should also read up on Operation: Case Lead and the lead up on it. Short version – Israel reneged on a previously agreed settlement in which Hamas would crack down on splinter groups and conform to a ceasefire while Israel loosened the blockade. While Hamas was working on it side of the deal (and succeeding), Israel began Operation: Case Lead, an operation that make any ongoing American military actions look dovish in comparison.

    Israel is absolutely the aggressor here. They do not want peace, and well, the IDF wants to enact genocide and ethnic cleansing.

  72. 72
    blingee says:

    Gotta say the whole thing that I think DougJ started by using lyrics for your title is kind of lame. Always thought so but it’s getting old now as well.

  73. 73
    Gator90 says:

    @c u n d gulag: Back to the Nazi references, I see. Sad and ugly. Here’s a thought: call it “Manifest Destiny” instead. Or would that not be as much fun?

  74. 74

    I certainly don’t know enough to have a judgment about which side is “in the right”.

    Neither.

    Which is why we should either treat both sides equally and broker a peace deal or just stay the hell out of it and stop sending them money.

  75. 75
    Maude says:

    @Comrade Dread:
    Turkey had gotten involved in negotiations. That’s good.

  76. 76
    Corner Stone says:

    @Comrade Dread:

    Which is why we should either treat both sides equally

    How would you do that? One side has an Air Force.

  77. 77

    @Corner Stone: Stop shielding them from UN condemnation. Stop selling them warplanes and reduce aid to the exact amount and type we send to the Palestinians. Demand that they stop building settlements.

  78. 78
    Some Loser says:

    @Comrade Dread:
    You’re saying the Palestinians aren’t in the right? That one of the poorest, ghettoized regions in the world should have to fight with a well equipped, genocidal apartheid state?

    This is “both sides do it” applied to foreign policy.

    The IDF is barely more than a terrorist group who is literally starving millions of people so they can steal their land and resources (including fucking water, especially water).

    Do you know about the West Bank and the settlements? Or treatment of Arabic citizens in Israel?

    Israel is worse than the fucking United States. Think about that. All those war crimes the US has done and continue to do? Israel does much, much worse thing.

    Don’t even pretend there is equal blame. Doing otherwise . . .

    This is victim blaming, and if you believe yourself a liberal, then quit it.

  79. 79
    mch says:

    Back to the NYT’s coverage. If not in its news coverage, the voices it is amplifying elsewhere:

    Two featured op-eds online (don’t know if they’re in the hard copy or not), “Trapped in Gaza” and “I’m Losing Hope for a Peaceful Israel.” Both well worth reading.

  80. 80
    Thlayli says:

    BINGO!

    Didn’t get it in 50, but pretty darn close.

    “Don’t call me an anti-Semite!” (#35)

    “There were Jewish terrorists once” (#52)

    What’s my bonus square … ah, it’s “you care about these Muslims, but not the ones killed by DRONEZZZZ”

    (My point, for the people like MattMinus who missed it, is every time this subject comes up you all say the same damn things over and over. Why even post about it if it just makes everyone repeat themselves?)

  81. 81
    General Stuck says:

    @Thlayli:

    For quite a while now, whenever I get the urge for a do it yourself lobotomy, I just read a Balloon Juice Israel thread and my IQ drops to a blissful sub 70 score. It isn’t a steep fall to begin with.

  82. 82
    Turbulence says:

    Why even post about it if it just makes everyone repeat themselves?)

    That’s a very good point. Why exactly do front pagers keep posting about Republican mendacity either? Do we really need another post pointing out, yet again, that Romney is an asshole or that McCain is an ignorant little shit?

  83. 83
    Mjaum says:

    @Thlayli:

    Well… You and your kind keep saying the killing Israel is doing is justified.

    We disagree.

    And are you honestly trying to imply that the repetition of an argument is cause for dismissing it?

    You may want to try harder.

  84. 84

    @Some Loser: Please, both sides have blood on their hands. And both sides continue to resist a peaceful resolution. Getting into an argument as to who is ‘more right’ is pointless and self-defeating. Every side is going to see themselves as the righteous party, even as they break the law and commit atrocitites.

    And my ideas for treating both sides equally involve cutting off aid and military supplies to Israel and no longer shielding them from condemnation.

  85. 85
    Corner Stone says:

    @Comrade Dread: But I would argue that “treating both sides equally” involves some approximation of equality to begin with. Even if we cut aid to Israel now we’d still never reach equilibrium between the disparity of force, forces, and pressure.

  86. 86
    Mjaum says:

    @Comrade Dread:

    Yes. Both sides have blood on their hands. Unfortunately that is not the whole story. The palestinians have blood only on their hands. The Israelis are bloody to their elbows, with a splash or two on the face.

  87. 87
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    That’s why I favor a One-State Solution. A one-religion state is out of sync with Democracy anyway, and if the population loses faith, then what? Consent of the governed (all of the governed is the way to go).

  88. 88
    Some Loser says:

    @Comrade Dread:
    This event that we are witnessing right now was caused by the assassination of agent of Hamas who was readying for peace talks. The IDF killed him because he wanted to talk to them.

    In 2008, the last time peace was attempted, Israel began Operation Case Lead. Hamas and Israel came to a peace agreement, but Israel reneged. Hamas stopped the splinter groups from firing on Israel. They used violence against their own people to conform to this ceasefire. Israel’s side of the deal was to loosen the blockade. Israel, instead of upholding it side of the bargain, launched an assault. Operation Case Lead.

    This was not the first time something like this happened. Most people in the Gaza Strip wants peace through peaceful means. They don’t want violence; they just want equality and fair treatment. Israel does not argue in good faith, and all attempts by the Palestinians, nonviolent and violent alike, are met with murder.

    Your position is that both sides are equally culpable. Bullshit. You are an ignorant asshole.

    Both sides may have blood on their hands, but one side so much more justifiable. Anyway, the amount isn’t even comparable. You are comparing a group of people fighting back against a bully with the bully itself. What the fuck is your logic? Because the Palestinians aren’t letting themselves be killed that they deserve what Israel does to them?

    Do you even understand the fucking context?

  89. 89
    Phoenician in a time of Romans says:

    @kerFuFFler:

    In the early 90’s when Israel and Palestine came very close to a peace deal with 2 states, Yasser Arafat rejected a generous offer

    Would that be this?

    —-

    Oslo Accords

    In the early 1990s, Arafat and leading Fatah officials engaged the Israeli government in a series of secret talks and negotiations that led to the 1993 Oslo Accords.[45][76] The agreement called for the implementation of Palestinian self-rule in portions of the West Bank and Gaza Strip over a five-year period, along with an immediate halt to and gradual removal of Israeli settlements in those areas. The accords called for a Palestinian police force to be formed from local recruits and Palestinians abroad, to patrol areas of self-rule. Authority over the various fields of rule, including education and culture, social welfare, direct taxation and tourism, would be transferred to the Palestinian interim government. Both parties agreed also on forming a committee that would establish cooperation and coordination dealing with specific economic sectors, including utilities, industry, trade and communication.[77]

    Prior to signing the accords, Arafat—as Chairman of the PLO and its official representative—signed two letters renouncing violence and officially recognizing Israel. In return, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, on behalf of Israel, officially recognized the PLO.[78]

    The following year, Arafat and Rabin were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, along with Shimon Peres.[79] The Palestinian reaction was mixed. The Rejectionist Front of the PLO allied itself with Islamists in a common opposition against the agreements. It was rejected also by Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan as well as by many Palestinian intellectuals and the local leadership of the Palestinian territories. However, the inhabitants of the territories generally accepted the agreements and Arafat’s promise for peace and economic well-being.[80]

    —-

    Gosh, I wonder what may have buggered up that agreement?…

  90. 90
    Chris says:

    @Some Loser:

    This is “both sides do it” applied to foreign policy.

    QFT.

  91. 91
    pseudonymous in nc says:

    @Thlayli:

    I should have those squares filled in by post #50.

    You already got your “sanctimonious twat” free square.

  92. 92

    @Corner Stone: If cutting off all aid and telling them we’re not going to cover for them in the UN security council doesn’t work, then internationally approved sanctions might.

    One step at a time.

  93. 93

    A couple things, the realative sizes of opponents doesn’t have a damn thing to do with rightness or wrongness. It may have a hell of a lot to do with tactics, but not spit to do with “morality.”

    I’d be surprised if Israel was any more inclined to makes deals with Hamas than we are with Al Quaeda. Again, this has nothing to do with justice or such – just a pretty understandable outcome. On the other side of it you can consider that the Afghans had no intention of leaving the Russians alone…

    I have seen little to incline me to think either side is exactly a ‘straight dealer’ in the situation. Take the “elimination of Israel” plank, both sides know that it is utter nonsense that Israel might go anyplace other than where it is, there will be no end of Israel and pretending that it has anything to do with reality is silly – on both sides. It certainly is politically impossible to countenance the creation of a State dedicated to your destruction and it is pretty difficult to get approval for the entity that has oppressed you for decades.

    I don’t see shit happening until both sides are sick to death enough of it to start acting like reasoning humans. I’m not even sure how much effect the knee-jerk US backing of Israel has on that particular equation. If I’m right about the sick of it equation then neither side has any reason to stop trying to make the other sorry…

  94. 94
    Some Loser says:

    @Chuck Butcher:

    Hamas is not like Al Quaeda. The situation is no where analogous. Stop it. Actually learn about this shit before repeating this bullshit.

    Hamas has done some fucked up shit, and yes, they should be condemned for it. However, Hamas has been more than willing to enter peace talks and work through a solution, but Israel does not argue in good faith. Do people even know why the people of the Gaza even support Hamas in the first place? Hamas offers them security and some degree of safety.

    The majority of Palestinians are for a peaceful resolution! Every time they try to negotiate, Israel reacts violently. People in the Gaza Strip are losing faith in peace talks.

    This kind of attitude was used against black people during the Civil Rights movement here in America. “If only those people acted reasonably, none of this would be happening.”

    Palestinians are literally surviving a campaign to starve them. They are surviving routine attacks by a far superior country. They have no real allies, and they are constantly being beaten down. Even worse, they are losing their land and precious resources (including water).

    This is more than just about Hamas. Hamas is a symptom. If Israel wasn’t pursuing their genocidal campaign, Hamas wouldn’t exist.

    Palestinians do not want to destroy the Jews. That is a lie perpetrated by the Israel right-wing. They honestly just want their rights as humans being acknowledged.

    If you want an historic analogy of Palestine and Israel, just think Native Americans and their settlers. I am not an expert on this subject, but I know who is to blame for this mess. I know who has the solution to this problem.

    Seriously, here. Read this, please. If you do nothing else, then read this. Read the precursor to this war. Read of Israel’s war crimes. Understand that this isn’t Al Quaeda or the Taliban versus the United States; this is an region full people being violently repressed for having the audacity of being alive.

    This current event was sparked by Israel assassinating a Hamas official who was trying to broker peace.

    The whole Israel/Palestine conflict has everything to do with morality. The Israeli government is trying to wipe out an entire population of people and steal their land. Look at the apartheid. The blockade Israel put up prevents the Gaza Strip citizens from building any infrastructure. Even materials whose sole use is for proper buildings, Israel forbids.

    Nothing works to appease Israel! That is the main problem. The Palestinians have tried everything from Civil Rights Movement style protests (met violently) to counterattacks (met violently).

    What are the Palestinians to do? What can they do?

    Aren’t you liberal? I thought this was a liberal blog. I thought people here had fucking empathy and emotions. Basic human decency.

    Yet, look at how you regard people being massacred. You just sit at your computer and sneer, thinking you’re above it all. You don’t look any deeper than the surface. You don’t bother to find the context. You don’t even bother.

    Seriously, did you dismiss the Libyans? What about the Syrians and their on-going efforts? Do you turn your nose up to those guys, too?

  95. 95
    Corner Stone says:

    @Some Loser:

    I thought this was a liberal blog.

    This is not a liberal blog.

  96. 96
    Donald says:

    I was about to reply to the Hamas-Al Qaeda analogy, but on refreshing I see that some loser beat me to it. And used the same analogy I was going to use–the Native Americans. I’ll add that in the 19th century the term (white) people used back then was “savages” and indeed there were vicious atrocities committed by the Native Americans. Nowadays, though, we also admit that there were atrocities committed by the whites and we also understand which side was the aggressor. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is similar in many respects.

    So it’s not surprising that Israelis emphasize the (quite real) atrocities and cruelties committed by Palestinian terrorist groups, but they forget to mention that the Israelis habitually shoot at Palestinian fisherman, kill innocent Palestinians who cross into buffer zones inside Gaza, maintain a blockade on Gaza that we would all be calling a crime against humanity if the Palestinians could impose a similar one on Israel. And so on.

    As for the NYT, I regularly write complaints to their public editor about their coverage, but it’s not quite as worthless as some here have said. I’m surprised I’m defending them, because they are pretty slanted, but some of the info I just mentioned (the shooting at fisherman, etc…) was actually mentioned in Ethan Bronner’s piece today. Unfortunately he also included without correction an Israeli military man’s version of the history of rocket fire, which left out the truce in 2008 which reduced it to almost zero.

  97. 97
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @dedc79:

    And the reason nearly half the population of Israel consists of Jews from the Middle East? Because they were expelled from Arab and Muslim countries where they’d lived for centuries in reaction to the formation of Israel, and the events that followed from that formation.

    The ripples (more like tsunamis) in the pond created by the Zionists have far reaching consequences.

  98. 98
    Phoenician in a time of Romans says:

    @Thlayli:

    Whoopee, it’s time for another round of Liberal Anti-Zionist Bingo!

    that’s right – and have you noticed that when people start defending the National Socia1ist Party of the 1930s and 40s Germany, people always start bringing up the same tired arguments as well?

    Oh, they exterminated Jews. Oh, the exterminated Slavs, gypsies and gays. Oh, they invaded their neighbours. Oh, they were a bunch of murderous genocidal thugs.

    Just the same tired old accusations again and again…

    Just because a charge keeps getting repeated does not make it untrue. Mattminus clearly laid out the case for Israel being an apartheid state, and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is no less true for being slow.

    But let me be clear here – in this case, I am not drawing an analogy between Israel and Nazi Germany.

    The more appropriate analogy is between Israel and Serbia, when it decided to ethnically cleanse Kosovo in the 1990s. In both cases, the victims weren’t angels and the situation was muddy, but in both cases, the larger force engaged in ethnic cleansing was wrong.

  99. 99
    General Stuck says:

    @Some Loser:

    Well, I’m a liberal, and I think your comment is a load of bigoted crap. I don’t think you give a shit about the Palestinians, or likely anyone else. There are enough stereotypes and overtly fetid bullshit in your comment to fuel a garbage truck for a year.

    Palestinians do not want to destroy the Jews. That is a lie perpetrated by the Israel right-wing. They honestly just want their rights as humans being acknowledged.

    You sound like a paid Hamas spokesman with this crap.

  100. 100
    General Stuck says:

    One thing there is no doubt of. That the warring Pal/Israel that never ends is a perfect cover for any and all anti semites to practice their bigotry behind, whether or not that is true on an individual basis. From the deep wells of that disease in the bowels of leftist Europe, mainlined right into the USA liberal/leftist community.

    And no. I don’t support Israel using brute force, but then I haven’t been living next to people who want to kill me each and every day. Hamas keeps the Likudites in power and they keep the blood flowing with the US cash. It is a sick situation that is not properly dealt with by left or right wing whack jobs.

  101. 101
    Some Loser says:

    @General Stuck:
    Bigoted?

    What about my comments are bigoted? I was making factual (and admittedly, emotionally charged) statements about Israel and their relation with Palestine (and Arabic Israelis).

    What part of my is crap? This shit is easy to check. You can read UN reports about the atrocities.

    I wasn’t defending Hamas; I was defending the Palestinians. I tend to differentiate between the two. I’m ready to condemn Hamas for there more violent actions, but I also understand the situation in which such a group pops up.

    No, seriously, Stuck. Tell me where I was making things up. Hell, I wasn’t even engaging in (much) hyperbole.

    Edit: Wait, are you conflating my anger at Israel with antisemitism? When did I make a statement about Jews other to say that the Palestinians don’t hate them?

  102. 102
    General Stuck says:

    @Some Loser:

    You have created a blood sucking caricature of Israeli jews for some time now. As craven monsters practicing genocide because they like it. It is not genocide, but is brutal, and the dying ratio is one sided. But why?

    No country, no people, no one in this entire fucking world would tolerate the mindless psychotic focus Hamas and their kind have to killing jews and destroying Israel. They say this openly and it is in their charter. And that they will never ever stop until Israel is pushed into the sea and the jews with it. There is no controversy about this, and those that deny it are themselves spewing propaganda they claim the Israeli’s are doing.

    And by not tolerating random rocket fire into Jewish neighborhoods, I mean any fucking country would crush to the death those doing it. The citizens would demand it, when all other avenues had failed. And Israel hasn’t done that yet, even though Hamas is goading them every day into such a crushing attack. So idiots like you will faithfully call it genocide.

    It is a war over real estate, like most wars, and Hamas has time as its biggest weapon and chipping away at the jewish soul with provocations to be brutal in the kind of self defense finality any country would have long ago taken. And Hamas is winning that war of will and conscience.

  103. 103
    dedc79 says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: or, rather than blame zionists for the expulsion of jews from middle eastern countries, you could, you know, blame the countries that kicked them out (or made life so unpleasant that they left).

  104. 104
    Donald says:

    I blame the Middle Eastern countries that expelled Jews (or made life unpleasant for them) just as I blame Israel for expelling Palestinians.

    There’s no reason why people can’t condemn terrorism by Hamas and Hamas bigotry and also Israeli war crimes and apartheid policies and bigotry towards Palestinians. Liberals shouldn’t have the slightest difficulty with this. There could be disagreements about the precise degree of blame to be laid on each side for any given war (like the current one), but usually there’s plenty of blame for both.

    And here is a passage from the Ethan Bronner article in the NYT today, giving a rare (for the American MSM) glimpse at the situation from a Palestinian perspective–

    “Gazans see events in a very different light. The problem, they say, comes from Israel: Israeli drones fill the Gazan skies, Israeli gunboats strafe their waters, Palestinian militants are shot at from the air, and the Gaza border areas are declared off limits by Israel with the risk of death from Israeli gunfire.

  105. 105
    Some Loser says:

    @General Stuck:
    I really don’t care for Hamas. I think they should be punished for their crimes. However, I don’t conflate Hamas with the Palestinians.

    Seriously, most of the Palestinians want to resolves the whole thing peacefully. Here. Hamas has strong support in the Gaza Strip because they’ve created a moderately successful safety net and provided the Palestinians in Gaza with some sense of security.

    I have not painted the Israeli Jews as anything as the such. I have said their government (y’know, I say Israel the same way most people say the United States) and their military, IDF, have done some particularly evil shit. Seriously, read the UN report on the Gaza War, or also called Operation: Case Lead, to see what I mean. This should bother you.

    As far threats go, Hamas is a weak organization that only recently came into power in the Gaza Strip. They spend most of their time maintaining a social net. They pose as much of a threat to Israel as Mexican drug cartels on the border do to the United States (they don’t).

    Of course, this is a war on real estate. You’ve got that part correct, at least. However, you do realize that most of the fighting started because Israel has set up settlements illegally in Palestinian lands, right? That is kind of a big problem. You wouldn’t fucking blame the Native Americans for fucking pushing back when the white settlers were stealing land.

    Seriously, you are protraying all Palestinians as warmongering savages who just so desire to murder all the Jews. You are condemning a whole people for the deeds of the few. Do you know what qassam missles are? Piss rockets! They make up most of the Palestinians rockets. They are piss (heh) poor weapons that are more nuisance than threat.

    Hamas, for all the evil they do, isn’t probably even doing most of the attacks on the border. Probably some disgruntled kid (most Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are younger than 20!) who decided to take his rage out on his oppressor. Back in 2008 when Hamas and Israel brokered a peace deal (and before Israel reneged and launched Operation Case Lead), Hamas had stamped down on these people, preventing splinter groups from firing on the border. Take a look at Hamas’ efforts.

    You’ve also said Hamas has time as a weapon. I’m not sure I’m not being trolled, but you do know about Israel’s (illegal) blockade, right? The blockade that stops everything from basic building material to kitchen knives to food from reaching the Gaza. The Palestinians are malnourished. They have everything but time on their side.

    Face it, dude. Israel is being straight up evil. The Israeli government is being controlled by Israel’s version of the Tea Party, and they are punishing people for just being alive, as well as maintaining an apartheid for Arabic descended Israelis.

  106. 106
    Some Loser says:

    I see the appeal of McLaren’s posting style.

    I’m done here. This is ridiculous. I blame the media. It seems we just can’t report truthfully on this subject in Canada, the UK, and the good ‘ol USA.

    But at the same time. People are proving immune to facts. Willful ignorance? Probably. It doesn’t fucking matter. Fuck me for thinking any evidence could overcome propaganda.

    I’m just done here.

  107. 107
    Ben Franklin says:

    So Israel has the right to defend itself, but Palestinians, don’t”

    Mustapha Borghouti—-

  108. 108
    Patricia Kayden says:

    Sorry Mistermix, but I have to disagree with you. Hamas started this latest military confrontation with Israel by firing rockets from Gaza. What do you expect Israel to do? Hamas is in the wrong and needs to stop.

  109. 109
    General Stuck says:

    @Some Loser:

    Seriously, you are protraying all Palestinians as warmongering savages who just so desire to murder all the Jews. You are condemning a whole people for the deeds of the few. Do you know what qassam missles are? Piss rockets! They make up most of the Palestinians rockets. They are piss (heh) poor weapons that are more nuisance than threat

    This must be the I’m rubber you’re glue part of a ME thread. I do not equate Hamas with all Palestinians, just the ones allied with its eliminitionist goals for Israel. And I am fairly sure there are plenty of Fatah aligned Palestinians on the West Bank who now days think the same thing.

    And the relative power of the home made rockets is irrelevant to forcing the Israeli’s to act to protect their citizens. It is a weapon of terror and quite effective as the Hamas insurgency type psychological warfare they are winning with.

    If you come from a place where you don’t believe Israel has the right to exist where it is, then that is what you believe, and any and all constructive criticism and debate of Israel and the Palestinians ends. I just got tired of the bloodthirsty caricature you and others were painting of Israeli Jews in a dynamic situation . And giving credit to the theory that there was anything of this earth that could cause Hamas to stand down short of destroying the state of Israel. Because there is not.

    The only way this will ever be resolved is for Hamas and the other militant groups to stand down, or be defeated. You start from there and not one other place. For that to happen there either needs to be a civil war between Hamas and the rest of the Palestinians, or Israel fights that civil war for them. I don’t know but if it is too late for any of it short of a true bloodbath to happen.

  110. 110
    Donald says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    It’s usually hard to tell who started any given spasm of violence, because there’s usually something each side can point to as a provocation. Of course, people in America who blame Hamas never seem to know anything about what Israel has done.

    Robert Wright on who started the Israel Gaza conflict

  111. 111
    Some Loser says:

    @General Stuck:
    I’m a goddamn liar.

    I can’t let this bullshit go.

    Shut the fuck up about Israeli Jews, and answer one question:

    Why? Why the fuck should Hamas and the Palestinians stand down? Israel has rebuked every attempt at peace meetings assassinated (war crime)! They have used Palestinian civilians and children as shields in conflicts they started (war crime)! They used White Phosphorous on civilians *purposely* (war crime)! They bomb an UN school under the pretense that the school had combatants in it but later revealed the school was not part of the conflict at all (WAR CRIME)!

    At what point is enough is fucking enough? At what point can the Palestinians say they have tried all that they could? That they tried all nonviolent alternatives to secure peace?

    You say Hamas should stand down and be peaceful? What about that time when they stopped nearly all of the missile attacks from Gaza for six whole months as part of an agreement to which Israel responded with armed violence? What about the time when the Palestinians set up Civil Rights like movements and tried to protest peaceful and Israel responded with violence?

    At what point is Israel responsible for all these evil acts they preformed.

    Don’t bother to answer. You don’t give a shit about the Palestinians. You simply think they’re subhuman scum and should just stay down and let Israel fuck them over and over again.

    Israel actions over the past few years have been frankly disgusting. Atrocious. Worse than we, the United States of America, has mustered. Quite a fucking feat. I reserve the right to criticize the government and the people responsible for these action.

    And, fuck you! Seriously, go fuck yourself. I’m a bigot because I call these actions out? Holy shit, is the whole fucking United Nation bigots? They call out these actions, too.

    Maybe go read a fucking book on the subject. Israel assassinated a peace broker, and that started the whole thing. But, of course, since it was Israel doing the assassination, they must have had a good reason, right?

    I wonder what you’ll say if this turns into Operation Case Lead 2: The Electric Boogalou? Those sand niggers had it coming?

  112. 112
    General Stuck says:

    @Some Loser:

    Now that is truly a mclaren grade comment. Golf clap.

  113. 113
    Mjaum says:

    @General Stuck:

    I just got tired of the bloodthirsty caricature you and others were painting of Israeli Jews in a dynamic situation.

    And giving credit to the theory that there was anything of this earth that could cause Hamas to stand down short of destroying the state of Israel.

    Congratulations. You’re an idiot.

    There is nothing to be done about Hamas, because they are bloodthirsty and evil. But we’re really bad for painting the Israelis as bloodthirsty and evil.

    Lad. You like the Israelis, and you dislike the Palestinians. That is the only point you have. One side is your side, the other side is the other side.

    Great. We get it. But the only person this says anything about in the whole wide world is you. You don’t have an argument, you don’t have a point, and you obviously don’t have a mirror.

    Now go away.

  114. 114
    General Stuck says:

    @Mjaum:

    It is in the Hamas Charter, and they are only following their own “political” goals with violence to eliminate the state of Israel. That is not necessarily blood thirsty, nor even morally in error, given the situation of disputed land. It is however, the truth of what motivates them to keep fighting. That was my only point.

    You sound very young.

  115. 115
    lacp says:

    @General Stuck: I do see your point, Stuck. Look at the West Bank, where Hamas isn’t in charge. The Palestinian Authority has prevented attacks on Israel for years and actively pursued a peace agreement, and in return the Israelis have not only stopped building settlements, they’re rolling them back!

    Not.

  116. 116
    Donald says:

    @General Stuck:

    Actually, you set the tone.

  117. 117
    lacp says:

    And on the subject of groups’ charters, how about this from Likud’s charter?

    The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

    The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

  118. 118
    General Stuck says:

    @lacp:

    No you don’t see my point. And Fuck Likud. They are fueled by Hamas’s bullshit.

    @Donald:

    Don’t think so. I did respond to the tone after the bullshit got so deep it couldn’t be navigated by just angst for Israeli over reaction.

    The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

    Nice talking point, courtesy of the Hamas/Likud party.

  119. 119
    Mjaum says:

    @General Stuck:

    You can read, can’t you?

    You state that Hamas is all evil and bloodthirsty, creating a caricature. That was the first sentence. Then, in the *very next bloody sentence* you claim that you’re tired of people caricaturing Israelis as evil and bloodthirsty.

    May I suggest you take a course in reading what you write?

  120. 120
    General Stuck says:

    @Mjaum:

    Fuck off you lying sack of shit.

  121. 121
    Mjaum says:

    @General Stuck:

    I accept your capitulation. Thank you.

  122. 122
    General Stuck says:

    @Mjaum:

    Back in your hole

  123. 123
    Ben Franklin says:

    @General Stuck:

    Your tactics never change.

    “I’m not answering you logically because………shut the fuck up!”

    Go peddle your wares where they won’t do harm, like say, PJ Media.

  124. 124
    Mjaum says:

    @Ben Franklin:

    Those aren’t tactics. It’s more like a small mammal shitting itself to be less palatable to the carnivore that is about to eat it.

  125. 125
    General Stuck says:

    @Ben Franklin:

    You are kind of cute when sassy. Come here and lemme pinch that rosy little cheek. Tiger.

  126. 126
    Full Metal Wingnut says:

    @Brachiator: I agree with the substance of your comment, but your mentioning of Sephardic Jews seems to imply that Spain isn’t part of Europe (sidenote-I’m a descendant of Spanish Sephardic Jews)

Comments are closed.