Nothing to See Here, and It’s Easily Fixed

It’s a week after the election and Arizona still has 300,000+ votes to count, some of which are provisional ballots (i.e., cast by possible Mexicans because they are brown) that might expire tomorrow. In other words, everything went according to Republican plan.

That’s why I had to laugh when I heard people like Sean Hannity say that they’re ready to do immigration reform, as if that will fix the problem Republicans have with Latinos. If you’re one of the 500,000 or so mostly Latino mostly new/early/provisional voters who’s wondering if the Republicans will let your ballot be counted, I’m thinking that there’s fuck-all the Republicans can do right now to win your vote the next time, or the time after that. It’s not that disenfranchisement trumps immigration reform, though it might. Latinos know that Republican obstruction is the reason we don’t have immigration reform. A few House Republicans grudgingly voting for immigration reform isn’t going to change a 70/30 or 80/20 split in Latino voting preference that took years to create, and the House isn’t going to overturn SB 1070 or push Jan Brewer out of office.






175 replies
  1. 1
    some guy says:

    has the DNC gotten involved in Arizona yet? What are the lawyers doing to make sure these votes are counted?

  2. 2
    PreservedKillick says:

    The voter suppression attempts across the country are going to cause them major problems, as will “voter id.” Those lines in Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach, the wrong dates on the various voter information packets. It’s not a small group, it’s the whole damn party actively trying to disenfranchise minorities and acting shocked now that those same voters have spoken.

    Two cycles, minimum, assuming they go for real change – which I very much doubt they will. Lipstick won’t change this pig.

  3. 3
    amk says:

    @some guy: And wtf is carmona doing about it ? Where is he?

  4. 4
    BGinCHI says:

    The best thing the GOP could have done for a new immigrant group who are now electorally significant is to put their foot on their neck and raise their consciousness. I’m not sure Latinos were unaware of their importance as a voting population, but thanks to the GOP they can now see the power of the vote.

    The underreported voter suppression story is also going to be the sleeper story for the next several voting cycles.

    Voting is precious again.

  5. 5
    Scott S. says:

    I don’t see ’em changing either. The base — the seriously hardcore Republican fanatics who they rely on in elections, and who often get into elected office themselves — really, really love racism, and they’re not going to let that go.

    When your idea of minority outreach is sneering that brown people sure love getting free stuff, you’re probably not going to have a lot of success appealing to anyone but white racists.

  6. 6
    some guy says:

    @amk:

    Carmona has already conceded, apparently it is the down ticket races where the suppression is a real bitch.

  7. 7
    The Red Pen says:

    A woman in Arizona ran over her husband for not voting (not voting against Obama):

    http://www.freerepublic.com/fo.....8893/posts

    Some of the Freeper comments are actually funny. I know it’s wrong, but I liked this one:

    That’s really a stupid move. Once he is dead he will vote Democrat every election.

    …and this one:

    Elections have consequences.

  8. 8
    NonyNony says:

    some of which are provisional ballots … that might expire tomorrow

    How the hell do ballots “expire”?

  9. 9
    redshirt says:

    @Scott S.: I think they love fascism even more than racism.

  10. 10
    Ash Can says:

    Hey, no prob — Marco Rubio will be on the ticket in 2016, and it’ll SO TOTALLY lock up the Latino vote for the GOP.

  11. 11
    blingee says:

    @PreservedKillick: Does anyone seriously believe the GOP will do anything besides DOUBLING DOWN on voter suppression next time around?

  12. 12
    amk says:

    @some guy: I know. I am asking why ? Ron Barber is still fighting it out. Kyrsten Sinema hung in there and won. Given the voter malpractice there, why did carmona preemptively surrender ? Wimps.

  13. 13
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @some guy:

    Specifically, the election of the Sheriff of Maricopa County.

    The incumbent is a stone racist.

    What a coinkydink!

  14. 14
    Triassic Sands says:

    Everyone knows the Republicans can be trusted. They wouldn’t help pass immigration reform for selfish, partisan reasons, but only because they know it’s the right thing to do — this election opened their eyes to the error of their ways. From now on, they can be counted on to do the right thing.

    (Now, pardon me while I throw up.)

  15. 15
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @redshirt:

    A certain political movement in central Europe in the 1930s put racism and fascism together, and ran across the rest of Europe with it in the ’40s.

  16. 16
    PeakVT says:

    @NonyNony: Some states require the voter to go to a county office with ID in order for the ballot to be counted. The grace period is usually a week. I believe AZ is one of those states.

  17. 17
    redshirt says:

    @some guy: He may have conceded on election night, but according to TPM, they’re still in it.

  18. 18
    Mjaum says:

    @redshirt:

    They haven’t gone quite that far yet. Openly, anyway. But then, fascism is a left-wing phenomenon anyway, don’t you know? :/

  19. 19
    catclub says:

    @amk: My understanding is that he did concede, but he revoked that concession when he learned how many votes are still left to be counted.

    I saw a quote saying he is still fighting. But looking at the numbers, it would still be unlikely to change the result.
    (a net win of about 70k votes from 200k uncounted.)

  20. 20
    redshirt says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Heh. Wonder who that was?

    But seriously, they are more fascist than racist, if you can measure such a thing. For, they would disenfranchise white liberals just as well if they could find a clean way to do it.

  21. 21
    General Stuck says:

    I’m pretty sure Arizona has surpassed Florida for the national banana republic. With emphasis on bananas.

    A pregnant Arizona woman was arrested after allegedly running over her husband with her SUV after learning he did not vote in last week’s election, Fox News reports.

    Police say Holly Solomon was enraged when she discovered her husband Daniel did not vote because she believes President Obama’s re-election will bring hardship to their family.

    Fortunately, Obamacare should cover this illness.

  22. 22
    Triassic Sands says:

    @Ash Can:

    Sshhh. If the Republicans think putting a Cubano on their ticket will suddenly sway millions of Mexican (and Central American) immigrants, the last thing we want to do is disabuse them of that notion. We should probably pretend we’re all desperately afraid they’ll turn to Rubio; the electoral Messiah who will lead the GOP out of the wilderness. (Wink.Wink.Wink.)

  23. 23
    catclub says:

    @PeakVT: and I am SURE that process is highly organized to match up provisional votes with the confirmation ID’s. A high efficiency production line of justice.

  24. 24
    Catfish N. Cod says:

    @nonynony: you’ve asked the right question. How does a ballot expire?? If there is a time limit on the validity of a ballot, anyone can cheat on an election just by being inefficient at counting after their preferred candidate has a lead. How does that pass constitutional muster?

  25. 25
    amk says:

    @redshirt:

    Carmona conceded the race on election night, telling his supports, “We didn’t win tonight, but when you look at the results it’s clear that Arizona is moving toward moderation.”. Now his campaign is wondering if it was too soon.

    Ya think ? Look how the thugs fought till the bitter end in al franken battle. Fucking wimps.

  26. 26
    Corner Stone says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    A certain political movement in central Europe in the 1930s put racism and fascism together, and ran across the rest of Europe with it in the ‘40s.

    I didn’t think The Beatles came along until much later.

  27. 27
    PeakVT says:

    @PeakVT: Forgot to put “provisional” in there. They’re not throwing out regular ballots, just provisional ones.

  28. 28
    priscianusjr says:

    @some guy:

    Carmona has already conceded,

    The fact that Carmona conceded early has no legal significance. Representatives of the Carmona campaign said yesterday:

    “We’re monitoring it closely, and we want every ballot to get counted, and we will take any necessary steps to make sure that happens,” Carmona campaign spokesman Andy Barr told Reuters. “The count is going very, very slowly, and it is hard for us to know where it will end up.”

    http://www.ibtimes.com/carmona.....ult-873644

  29. 29
    Corner Stone says:

    Since this blog is the central clearinghouse for the Obama WH’s strategic decisions, can someone please, please, tip his ear and strongly suggest he just fucking leave John Kerry in the Senate?
    Thanks

  30. 30
    Randy P says:

    @The Red Pen: You’re right, those are funny. I’m always puzzled why there is so little talent on their side, from web design to humor. Nice to see somebody over there has a nice dry cynical wit.

  31. 31
    pseudonymous in nc says:

    Arizona is Florida West. (West as in Allen West, i.e. crazy.)

  32. 32
    PeakVT says:

    @Corner Stone: Perhaps this is relevant. It would be irresponsible not to speculate.

  33. 33
    Elizabelle says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Yeah, second you on John Kerry. Leave the Senate alone, please.

    Give Scott Brown more quality time with his family and his truck.

    Who’s floating the JKerry possibility? Republicans? The DC press corpse? (But I repeat myself.)

  34. 34
    Yutsano says:

    @Elizabelle: I still think Susan Rice goes to State. But it wouldn’t shock me if Kerry is floating these trial balloons himself.

  35. 35
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @Ash Can: Yes just like having Palin on the ticket, locked up the women’s vote.

  36. 36
    NotMax says:

    “We’re going to stop kicking you in the nuts with steel-toed boots for a bit now.

    So show us the love, amigo.”

  37. 37
    👽 Martin says:

    Meanwhile, just next door in California, save your pennies and buy up some sweet carbon tomorrow:

    Despite fierce opposition from much of the business community, California’s grand experiment in taming global warming begins in earnest Wednesday.
    __
    State officials are set to auction tens of millions of dollars’ worth of carbon-emission allowances to scores of oil refiners, cement manufacturers and other large industrial polluters.

  38. 38
    Culture of Truth says:

    It’s true that recently the GOP had a problem drawing votes (last week) but once they manage to tie Obama PetreausAllenBenghazigate, their fortunes will turn. Just wait and see.

  39. 39
    Schlemizel says:

    @Ash Can:

    Not according to the bloated pustual Rush Lamebrain. He explained to the sheep that Rubio is not Hispanic he is Cuban and they are not liked by Hispanics because they (the Cubans) “value work”. He also pointed out it was partially driven by race as Cubans are whiter.

    Yeah, this will be a real winner with Latino voters.

  40. 40
    Corner Stone says:

    @PeakVT: I’m going to speculate further and say Deval makes a WH run in 2016. So the Gov seat gives him the best chance, IMO, for that possibility.

  41. 41
    amk says:

    About that rubio wet dream, he ain’t no Obama to corner all the non-white votes as well as close to 40% white votes (which is what is required as 2012 showed). Also. Too. You betcha the rabid racist teabaggers will try to primary him and ain’t gonna vote for him in GE (walking over broken glass and all that bs) like that they did for the 2012 white bot.

  42. 42
    catclub says:

    @Catfish N. Cod: Provisional voters have a fixed period of time to show up and show that they do have the ID and status that they claimed when they got the provisional ballot. That is why it is called provisional. It will be called official when its provisional status is changed by new facts. The need for a time limit becomes obvious, if you want to finish counting valid votes.

  43. 43
    catclub says:

    @Corner Stone: Of course, ex MASS govs do not have recent record of success in that ambition. ON the other hand, African Americans did not either up till 2008, and now, no African American president has _ever_ been defeated for re-election ( hat tip — XKCD).

  44. 44
    NotMax says:

    @Corner Stone

    Long time away still, but agree about Deval Patrick*. And also expect Andrew Cuomo to jump in.

    * Although maybe not as governor. The stepping stone of being in the Senate should he choose to run for a Kerry-vacated seat in ’14 is not to be discounted.

  45. 45
    Lurking Canadian says:

    @catclub: It might be closer than it sounds. Aren’t the kind of people likely to get provisional ballots likely to break overwhelmingly for Carmona? Assume they’re all Hispanics, and Hispanics voted 75% D, that’s enough to erase a 70000 vote leas.

  46. 46
    Paul in KY says:

    @Ash Can: Totally!!

  47. 47
    Suffern ACE says:

    @catclub: And it makes sense that people won’t show up if they don’t think it will matter one way or the other.

  48. 48
    Suffern ACE says:

    @catclub: I think the ex-Mass anything is the key, regardless of race, creed, immigration status, gender, sexual orientation, weight, height, blood type. The “Go with some guy from Massachusetts if you don’t like your other choices” is a path to electoral annihilation.

  49. 49
    Paul in KY says:

    @Triassic Sands: I will do my best to get thrown in that briar patch!

    How in the sam hell will any Democrat be able to beat that dreamboat Sen. Rubio in 2016?!

  50. 50
    Paul in KY says:

    @Schlemizel: Crap! Seems the fat toad is on to us.

  51. 51
    catclub says:

    @Lurking Canadian: I agree it is possible. But requires everything to break well.

    In bridge, it is hoping that partner’s hand is a ‘perfecto’.

    It happens, but you lose money depending on it happening.

  52. 52
    Ash Can says:

    @Triassic Sands et al.: Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the GOP put someone with Spanish (as in, from Spain) ancestry on the ticket, if they had such a wunderkind in their ranks, and believe it would have Latinos across the nation falling over themselves to vote GOP.

  53. 53
    Schlemizel says:

    @Paul in KY:

    Whats funny is my super racist BIL, who believes all the freeper BS lives in AZ & is involved with the construction trades but freely admits that the Mexicans are the hardest working guys he sees. Unlike most of the South & West where employers will fall all over themselves trying to hire Midwesterners because of their work ethic, for the really tough grunt work, out in the Az sun the guys there refuse them in favor of Hispanics.

    He also of course calls them lazy in the next breath.

  54. 54
    jeremy says:

    First of all Republicans should not expect immigration to be the solution to their problems because the larger problem is that Latino’s as voters lean left and actually like Democratic policies. Minorities in general lean more to the left than the right. ACA “Obamacare” gets high approvals in the Latino community. The GOP needs a overhaul and needs to move to the center because they are out of step with the majority of voters in this country. Speaking as a person who belongs to a minority group we don’t like or respect tokens. So they can throw Jindal and Rubio out there but people won’t forget the racism and their horrible policies.

  55. 55
    👽 Martin says:

    @Lurking Canadian: According to the exit polls, Obama won Latinos 79%-20%. House races won 82%-18%. Carmona won 83%-17%.

    So, yeah, depending on how strongly latino the provisional ballots are, they’re going to go very strongly for Carmona, as well as the House races still open.

  56. 56
    Ash Can says:

    @Schlemizel:

    He explained to the sheep that Rubio is not Hispanic he is Cuban and they are not liked by Hispanics because they (the Cubans) “value work”. He also pointed out it was partially driven by race as Cubans are whiter.

    Awesome.

  57. 57
    Mnemosyne says:

    some of which are provisional ballots (i.e., cast by possible Mexicans because they are brown) that might expire tomorrow

    I’m not sure I agree with you on your police work there, Lou:

    County election officials have until the end of the week to finish, but Roberts said counting can continue past the deadline if needed. A state canvass to certify the election results is set for December 3.

    If you have information about the expiration date of the provisional ballots, it doesn’t seem to be coming from the linked article.

    Also, too, since Carmona was behind by 6 points in the initial count on Election Day, it makes sense that he would concede since he didn’t know that there were still 300K provisional and early votes that needed to be counted. A concession is not legally binding — it’s not like Flake gets to take office even if Carmona gets more votes when all the counting is done just because Carmona made a concession statement.

  58. 58
    Randy P says:

    @Paul in KY: @Schlemizel: Guess ol’ Rush didn’t notice Obama got a majority of Cubans too.

  59. 59
    Yutsano says:

    @Mnemosyne: But only real Merikan votes count! Or something.

  60. 60
    Schlemizel says:

    @Ash Can:

    I hope someone keeps a copy of that (I believe it was TDS that had the clip) it will make great Internet fodder when the GOPs Great Brown Hope appears.

  61. 61
    👽 Martin says:

    @Schlemizel: Heh. Most Latinos I’ve talked to that had an opinion on Cubans were pissed at them because Cubans get a free citizenship pass when they land in the US, and then vote with the GOP to deny an immigration path for all other Latinos. It’s a perfect IGMFU situation.

    Why Rush continues to weigh in (see what I did there?) on such matters is just mindboggling. You’d think he’d learn his lesson, but no. There’s nothing to be gained by wedging cubans from the rest of latinos except to drive ever more non-cuban latinos to the Democrats. He’s only making things worse for Republicans. You’d think someone like Rubio would drive over to his house and kick him in the junk and tell him to STFU.

  62. 62
    Booger says:

    Aren’t you supposed to see a doctor if you have an election lasting more than four days or something?

  63. 63
    MattR says:

    @Mnemosyne: From a TPM article (emphasis mine)

    Under the law, voters can show photo identification or provide two forms of non-photo identification such as bank statements or utility bills. Voters who did not provide such forms of identification would be forced to cast conditional provisional ballots, which require them to provide identification to elections officials by this Wednesday to have their ballot count.

  64. 64
    Brachiator says:

    @Schlemizel:

    Not according to the bloated pustual Rush Lamebrain. He explained to the sheep that Rubio is not Hispanic he is Cuban and they are not liked by Hispanics because they (the Cubans) “value work”. He also pointed out it was partially driven by race as Cubans are whiter

    . Did Rush actually make the “Cubans are whiter” crack? You got a reference or link for that?

    @amk:

    About that rubio wet dream, he ain’t no Obama to corner all the non-white votes as well as close to 40% white votes (which is what is required as 2012 showed). Also. Too. You betcha the rabid racist teabaggers will try to primary him and ain’t gonna vote for him in GE

    Conventional wisdom insisted that the rabid GOP base would never embrace Romney, because he was a Mormon and all.

    But they did.

    Rubio as a VP pick at least (or another Latino polician) should be a no-brainer for the GOP. Republican voters would fall in line. In fact, I bet good money that some GOP wags are already whispering Jeb Bush and Rubio as the 2016 dream ticket.

    It’s not that disenfranchisement trumps immigration reform, though it might. Latinos know that Republican obstruction is the reason we don’t have immigration reform.

    immigation reform that would most please the left would also mean a substantial degree of amnesty. The Democrats are running from this as hard as are the Republicans.

  65. 65
    Mnemosyne says:

    @jeremy:

    First of all Republicans should not expect immigration to be the solution to their problems because the larger problem is that Latino’s as voters lean left and actually like Democratic policies. Minorities in general lean more to the left than the right.

    IIRC, most minority voters (including African-Americans, Latinos, Asian-Americans and Muslim-Americans) lean right on social issues like abortion and gay marriage and lean left on economic issues. The big difference between them and white voters is that Republicans haven’t been able to convince them to vote against their own economic self-interest.

    If there was a populist Republican who had policies that advanced equal economic opportunity for minority groups (nondiscrimination, college loans, etc.) while speaking against abortion, the Republicans might be able to make some inroads, but that ain’t gonna happen any time soon. Right now, there’s nothing in the Republican message that’s appealing to minorities — “We’re going to make things better for rich white guys and make it harder for you to get healthcare! Wait, why are you running away?”

  66. 66
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @General Stuck:

    Police say Holly Solomon was enraged when she discovered her husband Daniel did not vote because she believes President Obama’s re-election will bring hardship to their family.

    Fortunately, Obamacare should cover this illness.

    Funny, I was more thinking along the lines of Holder’s tender care.

  67. 67
    Sophie Amrain says:

    @amk: And why do you want somebody else to find out for you?

  68. 68
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @Mnemosyne: Its more than that, the Republicans, many elected officials, Bachmann, King etc and blowhards on TV and radio, keep actively demonizing minorities. Why would anyone vote for a party whose prominent members keep insulting them day in and day out. Also they have been paying close attention to the GOP otherizing President Obama. If a man whose mother is an American citizen and a who is also a white woman, can be otherized what chance does an immigrant have in today’s GOP.

  69. 69
    GregB says:

    GOP Logic 101.

    Re-electing President Obama would bring hardship on the family.

    Running over your husband won’t.

  70. 70
    japa21 says:

    @Brachiator: For a Jeb Bush/Rubio ticket to take place, one of them would have to move.

  71. 71
    sherparick says:

    @some guy: Dr. Carmona has “suspended” that concession as he was unaware of at that time that 1/3 of the votes had not actually been counted. He noew has an outside chance to win.

    Sad to say, Arizona and the continuing scandal of Florida, got hardly a any attention from the VSP media over the weekend. And now SCOTUS stands ready to eviscerate the 1965 Voting Rights Act and make the 15th Amendment Deadletter again. It was debated that there was no significant choice in this election, but I really feel we dodged a bullet between SCOTUS, Republican governors and legislatures, and a Romney Justice Department, I think there would been a huge effort to make pretty hard to vote while Brown, Black, or a DFH.

  72. 72
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Brachiator:

    immigation reform that would most please the left would also mean a substantial degree of amnesty. The Democrats are running from this as hard as are the Republicans.

    Yep. If it was a no brainer, why didn’t it pass in the rump session in 2009? I don’t think there is a Democratic party consensus on what to do about immigration.

  73. 73
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @japa21:

    Didn’t stop a Bush/Cheney ticket in 2000. The Dark Lord merely changed his “official residence” to Wyoming.

  74. 74
    Paul in KY says:

    @Schlemizel: I know & have seen Mexicans work like dogs cutting/housing tobacco. That is some damn tough work there.

  75. 75
    Paul in KY says:

    @Schlemizel: I know & have seen Mexicans work like dogs cutting/housing tobacco. That is some damn tough work there.

  76. 76
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Triassic Sands: Sshhh. If the Republicans think putting a Cubano on their ticket will suddenly sway millions of Mexican (and Central American) immigrants, the last thing we want to do is disabuse them of that notion. We should probably pretend we’re all desperately afraid they’ll turn to Rubio; the electoral Messiah who will lead the GOP out of the wilderness.

    The hilarious thing is that Rubio is Florida’s version of a moderate (as of right now… Crist used to be but he got pushed out of the party… they’re all backstabbing bastards in the Fl RP anyway, part of the reason Crist was primaried had to do with payback for some trivial petty shit he did to certain state senators as governor, it’s like they’re all 7 or something).

    He’s a moderate AND he’s the wrong kind of Cuban.

    Plus the arch-Cuban vote is dying off. Shit, their offspring are practically my parents’ age and they sure as hell don’t vote stone cold Republican. Hell, I have an older coworker whose dad still lives in Cuba, hates the Castros and tells me every news story about Cuba is lies and propaganda, and I still have NEVER heard him get on the wingnut train, CLANGCLANG.

    I do know one Cubano who votes Republican. He’s a cheapskate and a bitter divorcee.

    Miami is a gateway for richie riches from South America and their coddled sprogs, but that’s not the whole story.

    Rubio won a 3-way contest. It started as 5: George LeMieux, the appointee, who didn’t want to step aside, Rubio, who got along well with the right faction to push out, Crist, who wanted that slot bad but wasn’t the dynamo he thought he was, this Republican from California who ran in the Dem primary and damaged the hell out of the ultimate Dem nominee, and the Dem, Kendall? who was likely underfunded and struck me as one of those son-of-a-politician types.

    The Northern, “Southern” end of Florida, from St. Lucie to Tallahassee, has some large African-American communities and to this day the districts are gerrymandered to provide separate reps for whites and blacks. Because the districts are packed, you have gatekeepers within the African-American community who decide who the candidates will be and non-competitive races. It leads to lazy politicians who are untested and unable to compete even in heavily Democratic areas. It’s not surprising that a number of ambitious Black politicians were switching parties because you take a shithaid like Allen West winning a majority-majority district downstate. However, I will say this: despite decades of vote suppression, the Black community in Jacksonville put their guy over the top in 2010. Some of the flippers have flipped back. And West looks like he’s going home, if unwillingly.

  77. 77
    Elizabelle says:

    Whoa.

    The Washington Post’s top editor is stepping down.. TPM has small item; hunting for more.

  78. 78
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    One thing about those “socially conservative, but economically liberal” immigrants is that they are not as stupid and fucked up in the haid as the GOP’s drooling base, that is, they put their economic concerns first. The tribe is not the most important thing to them, putting food on their families, to quote a great Rethug personality of years past, is the paramount concern.

    You can’t convince these people that it’s in their personal financial interest to make the Marquis du Mittens richer by paying higher taxes.

  79. 79
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Triassic Sands: Sshhh. If the Republicans think putting a Cubano on their ticket will suddenly sway millions of Mexican (and Central American) immigrants, the last thing we want to do is disabuse them of that notion. We should probably pretend we’re all desperately afraid they’ll turn to Rubio; the electoral Messiah who will lead the GOP out of the wilderness.

    The hilarious thing is that Rubio is Florida’s version of a moderate (as of right now… Crist used to be but he got pushed out of the party… they’re all backstabbing bastards in the Fl RP anyway, part of the reason Crist was primaried had to do with payback for some trivial petty shit he did to certain state senators as governor, it’s like they’re all 7 or something).

    He’s a moderate AND he’s the wrong kind of Cuban.

    Plus the arch-Cuban vote is dying off. Shit, their offspring are practically my parents’ age and they sure as hell don’t vote stone cold Republican. Hell, I have an older coworker whose dad still lives in Cuba, hates the Castros and tells me every news story about Cuba is lies and propaganda, and I still have NEVER heard him get on the wingnut train, CLANGCLANG.

    I do know one Cubano who votes Republican. He’s a cheapskate and a bitter divorcee.

    Miami is a gateway for richie riches from South America and their coddled sprogs, but that’s not the whole story.

    Rubio won a 3-way contest. It started as 5: George LeMieux, the appointee, who didn’t want to step aside, Rubio, who got along well with the right faction to push out, Crist, who wanted that slot bad but wasn’t the dynamo he thought he was, this Republican from California who ran in the Dem primary and damaged the hell out of the ultimate Dem nominee, and the Dem, Kendall? who was likely underfunded and struck me as one of those son-of-a-politician types.

    The Northern, “Southern” end of Florida, from St. Lucie to Tallahassee, has some large African-American communities and to this day the districts are gerrymandered to provide separate reps for whites and blacks. Because the districts are packed, you have gatekeepers within the African-American community who decide who the candidates will be and non-competitive races. It leads to lazy politicians who are untested and unable to compete even in heavily Democratic areas. It’s not surprising that a number of ambitious Black politicians were switching parties because you take a shithaid like Allen West winning a majority-majority district downstate. However, I will say this: despite decades of vote suppression, the Black community in Jacksonville put their guy over the top in 2010. Some of the flippers have flipped back. And West looks like he’s going home, if unwillingly.

  80. 80
    Elizabelle says:

    Whoa.

    The Washington Post’s top editor is stepping down.. TPM has small item; hunting for more.

  81. 81
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    One thing about those “socially conservative, but economically liberal” immigrants is that they are not as stupid and fucked up in the haid as the GOP’s drooling base, that is, they put their economic concerns first. The tribe is not the most important thing to them, putting food on their families, to quote a great Rethug personality of years past, is the paramount concern.

    You can’t convince these people that it’s in their personal financial interest to make the Marquis du Mittens richer by paying higher taxes.

  82. 82
    japa21 says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: True, but he actually had a house there.
    I am sure there would be something done, but both are so closely tied to FL that it would present a problem optics wise.

  83. 83
    Elizabelle says:

    Whoa.

    The Washington Post’s top editor is stepping down.. TPM has small item; hunting for more.

  84. 84
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: It would have to be Jeb, since Rubio is an actual senator. That said, it’d be bad of Jeb to look like he’s disowning FL just ’cause.

  85. 85
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    As an aside, FYWP, for the umpteenth time.

  86. 86
    gex says:

    @General Stuck: The woman who ran over her husband is doubly stupid. She now has to hope like crazy that Obamacare covers her husband, or they as a family are going to be gutted by health care expenses.

    What a fucking idiot.

  87. 87
    gex says:

    @Randy P: Those are probably from DougJ.

  88. 88
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Schlemizel: Whats funny is my super racist BIL, who believes all the freeper BS lives in AZ & is involved with the construction trades but freely admits that the Mexicans are the hardest working guys he sees. Unlike most of the South & West where employers will fall all over themselves trying to hire Midwesterners because of their work ethic, for the really tough grunt work, out in the Az sun the guys there refuse them in favor of Hispanics.

    Ha, I mean I guess there’s a work ethic thing there as far as the Midwest goes but they’re mainly hired for skills.

    From what I hear, the cheapest construction workers are Central Americans and their skill level is very poor.

    You gotta pay more for skilled trades (in fact, that’s reflected in the dreaded union wage scales) so it’s all about whether the client is trying to rip off whoever’s paying for the building or whether they care about quality.

    And in that vein, Charles Perry Construction at University of Florida is what you call honest graft. UF uses its ties in Tallahassee to get multimillions in building $$$, which it then funnels to Perry, who hires illegals that he doesn’t pay taxes on (unemployment tax, for example) and fucks up even simple buildings, but he gives $$$ to UF and they’re all cronied up so nothing. is. said.

    But when Shands needed to build a hospital they didn’t even treat with anyone from Florida. They hired Skanska, and Skanska flew their own people in. Totally not kidding.

    He also of course calls them lazy in the next breath.

    Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug.

  89. 89
    Elizabelle says:

    WaPost has gone with Martin Baron, Boston Globe’s editor and an industry veteran.

    Interesting that they didn’t hire from within, although budget cuts and buyouts pretty much eviscerated their staff a few years ago.

    I don’t read the Globe as much since it went behind a paywall.

    Wonder if that’s in store for the Post.

  90. 90
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @jeremy: Speaking as a person who belongs to a minority group we don’t like or respect tokens. So they can throw Jindal and Rubio out there but people won’t forget the racism and their horrible policies.

    Not tokens, turncoats, or perhaps mirrors, mirroring racist right white voter’s prejudices back at them, adopting their religion, customs, and hating all the people they hate. Nothing more flattering.

  91. 91
    Roger Moore says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    The big difference between them and white voters is that Republicans haven’t been able to convince them to vote against their own economic self-interest.

    It’s not just their economic interests, though. The Republicans aren’t social conservatives in the abstract; they favor a specific social vision that involves minorities shutting up and going back to their ghettos. Is it any wonder that the minorities aren’t terribly fond of that version of social conservatism?

    ETA: And FYWP for messing up my blockquote.

  92. 92
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Elizabelle:

    The Boston Globe is, IIRC, part of the Kaplan Test empire, so it’s sort of from within, in that context.

    I had my hopes up that the utter shithead Hiatt was the one leaving. Alas, dashed.

  93. 93
    Roger Moore says:

    @Suffern ACE:

    I don’t think there is a Democratic party consensus on what to do about immigration.

    Which is why Obama is going for low hanging fruit like the DREAM act. It’s a chance to do something positive about immigration without getting into the really contentious issues. I think that’s why he’s also gone in for enforcement actions against employers who knowingly hire undocumented immigrants, who are much less sympathetic than the immigrants themselves.

  94. 94
    jeremy says:

    @Suffern ACE: It didn’t pass because a little something called the financial collapse, health care reform, stimuuls, and the auto bailout, including wall street reform took priority over immigration.

  95. 95
    redshirt says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: I think the Boston Globe is owned by the NYTimes.

  96. 96
    amk says:

    @Sophie Amrain: It was a rhetorical question… sheesh.

  97. 97
    Brachiator says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    The Northern, “Southern” end of Florida, from St. Lucie to Tallahassee, has some large African-American communities and to this day the districts are gerrymandered to provide separate reps for whites and blacks. Because the districts are packed, you have gatekeepers within the African-American community who decide who the candidates will be and non-competitive races. It leads to lazy politicians who are untested and unable to compete even in heavily Democratic areas.

    Interesting stuff. Sounds worse than parts of California. Even though the Democrats are in a clear majority, they threw the GOP a bone in order to guarantee safe districts for everyone.

    Ironically, term limits have not helped, as backroom deals decide who will move up and what districts will be made available for “termed out” legislators. There has been a slight uptick in nepotism as well.

    @Suffern ACE:

    Yep. If it was a no brainer, why didn’t it pass in the rump session in 2009? I don’t think there is a Democratic party consensus on what to do about immigration.

    This is why I laugh whenever I hear any politician talk about “comprehensive immigration reform.” Nobody has a clear idea about what this means.

    Also, too, as I have noted in a couple of places, there may be a sizeable number of immigrants who want a right to work here, but are not necessarily interested in becoming citizens. But the moderately big lie to make immigration reform palatable to some people is to emphasize the “path to citizenship.”

  98. 98
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: The other issue is that “social conservative” is really a code word for white nationalist anxieties–white wimmens being despoiled, or failing to have multiple babbies, or the wrong people breeding. So your average non-white immigrant is going to be repelled by that.

    Also, too, Latin America has been ignoring the Bishops since forever on birth control, so why would they come here and suddenly give a shit?

    A lot of time conservative means holding onto traditional culture and marital practices, which is hardly the agenda of “socially conservative” Republicans who want to impose a particular version of Christianity on everyone. Preserving my culture flatly contradicts their conservatism. Sorry, but not every East Asian or South Asian is a super-Christian fleeing persecution abroad.

    Let’s not forget that “traditional Hawai’ians” were pushing for same-sex marriage back in the 1990s and were steamrolled by Mormons and other well-funded, powerful white Christian groups.

    Japanese people are big on their traditional culture but don’t think divorce and abortion are enormous outrages.

    The Taiwanese are grappling with GLBT rights right now.

    Traditional Indian culture, surely one of the more conservative cultures when it comes to family, has hijras. Which just goes to show that one culture’s hangups are not going to correspond neatly to another’s. While there are certainly bright lines (to a Hindu) between modest, traditional dance and immodest, scandalous dance, an old-school foot-washing Baptist would be covering their eyes at both, not that the dance thing is all that relevant these days.

  99. 99
    SatanicPanic says:

    @Mnemosyne: Because that social conservatism comes from a different cultural traditions- white puritanical Founding Father cultism vs Catholicism. i.e. Who cares if we agree if we’re from different tribes?

  100. 100
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Brachiator: Ironically, term limits have not helped, as backroom deals decide who will move up and what districts will be made available for “termed out” legislators. There has been a slight uptick in nepotism as well.

    Term limits have never worked, anywhere they’re tried, but of course because WE’RE NUMBER ONE we had to discount other countries’ experience (like Mexico, the land next door) and try it ourselves.

    It does nothing about corruption and seems to magnify the influence of lobbyists, so if you’re a Koch, mission accomplished.

  101. 101
    Roger Moore says:

    @jeremy:
    There’s more to it than that. Immigration is unpopular with organized labor, who remain a really important part of the Democratic coalition. Organized labor sees illegal immigration as a way of trying to undercut and weaken unions, probably because that’s one of its practical functions. Any kind of immigration solution is going to have to include provisions that reduce the threat to labor, which is going to undermine support from big business.

  102. 102
    Hal says:

    Hannity has evolved since last Tuesday? Just like that he’s all in for the Dream Act? It’s amazing to me how fucking transparent these people are. I’m all for Republicans supporting a path to citizenship, but they have spent years whipping rank and file supporters into a frenzy over immigration. To think you’re just going to come in and snap your fingers and get those zealous bigots to change their minds in order to keep John Boehner in power is laughable.

  103. 103
    gex says:

    @schrodinger’s cat: Exactly. The dogwhistles that Lee Atwater installed that have expanded to include immigrants, single women, and gays are actually easily heard by those groups, and easily overlooked/not noticed by the white people who eat it up. They sit there wondering why these groups can’t picture themselves voting GOP, and then call us reverse racists/bigots when we point out why.

  104. 104
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Brachiator: Also, too, as I have noted in a couple of places, there may be a sizeable number of immigrants who want a right to work here, but are not necessarily interested in becoming citizens. But the moderately big lie to make immigration reform palatable to some people is to emphasize the “path to citizenship.”

    Right now we have thousands whose right to work here depends on the employer. This abusive situation hurts US Citizens and the guest workers alike.

    If someone is so very skilled they should have five years and be free to work for anyone.

    We could do a ton to get rid of red tape without really changing the rules to get in. It’s also really tough to get on path to citizenship even if you want it, which is stupid. I have a friend who went to high school in the US, and college, and worked as H1B, very Americanized, could not get a green card until she married US-born. Ridic.

    And I know of no other country where they interrogate husbands and wives about their sex lives like our INS does.

    Plus there are some issues with GLBT couples that could very easily be addressed by a Dem majority body, if we ever get one. Fuck Republicans.

  105. 105
    Schlemizel says:

    @👽 Martin:

    Boy I saw that dynamic up close when I lived in Florida! El Pussbo is right about one thing though, the Cubans are very color conscious (at least the old guard the kids are much better).

    But nobody can confront his majesty. Those that have tried end up groveling for forgiveness on his show a day or two later. He controls their base and that is a delicious irony I hope to savor for a couple more cycles yet. Teatards – can’t win with ’em can’t win without them. Rush & FAUX created this monster it will be pure pleasure to watch it eat them alive

  106. 106
    jeremy says:

    The rpoblem with the GOP is that until they overhaul and move to the center nothing they do from this point will matter. They can rund tokens like Rubio out there all they want but it wil fail.

    And Rubio has so many skeletons in his closet that if I were him I would stay away from running in 2016. Jeb Bush should just sit down and retire because as long as he has the name Bush he won’t be able to win in 2016.

  107. 107
    dmsilev says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: No, the Globe is owned by NYTimesCo.

  108. 108
    Schlemizel says:

    @Brachiator:

    LIMBAUGH: But the Republicans get a large part of the Cuban vote, particularly South Florida, already. And it’s oriented — I can’t win here, I just can’t win. It’s oriented — the reason that the Cubans are not that popular, of the Hispanic divisions you’ve talked about — it’s a race thing.

    LIMBAUGH: It’s a race thing. They’re just not quite dark — as dark, and they’re oriented toward work.

    http://mediamatters.org/video/.....pan/191273

    Yes, it is as bad as I characterized it. This is the true face of todays GOP

  109. 109
    Redshift says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    Plus the arch-Cuban vote is dying off. Shit, their offspring are practically my parents’ age and they sure as hell don’t vote stone cold Republican. Hell, I have an older coworker whose dad still lives in Cuba, hates the Castros and tells me every news story about Cuba is lies and propaganda, and I still have NEVER heard him get on the wingnut train, CLANGCLANG.

    There’s disagreement among the various outfits that did exit polling and analysis, but according to some of them, Obama actually won Cuban-Americans in Florida. Even among the pollsters who disagree with that:

    Another exit poll of Florida Latinos, carried out by Edison Research on behalf of CNN, CBS, Fox News and other news media, indicated that Cuban voters split 50 percent-47 percent for Romney.
    __
    In comparison, 75 percent of Florida Cubans voted for the Republican presidential candidate in 2000, 71 percent in 2004 and 65 percent in 2008, according to the Bendixen firm, which worked for the Obama campaign this year.

    Not a good trend for the GOP, like just about every other demographic trend.

  110. 110
    gex says:

    @Another Halocene Human: Yup. The fact that the social conservatism on the right is code for white supremacy is found in the fact that they always bemoan the loss of the Judeo-Christian values of this country, and present that as an argument against largely Christian immigrants of the brown persuasion from becoming citizens.

  111. 111
    Redshift says:

    @Hal:

    Hannity has evolved since last Tuesday?

    Hannity had “evolved” by Wednesday. Only on his radio show, though, not on Fox.

  112. 112
    Schlemizel says:

    @Mnemosyne: The big difference between them and white voters is that Republicans haven’t been able to convince them to vote against their own economic self-interest.

    Maslow’s hierarchy of needs! The further away you are from hunger and exposure the less important those things appear to be

  113. 113
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @dmsilev:

    I sit corrected. I guess they did go “out of house” for their new editor.

    Still wish it was Hiatt leaving. What an asswipe he is.

  114. 114
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    Yup, that’s true. “Social conservative” doesn’t meant what it should mean…it’s code for “Jeebus worshiping sex obsessed broomstick up the ass white people”.

  115. 115
    Brachiator says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    From what I hear, the cheapest construction workers are Central Americans and their skill level is very poor.

    Just not true.

    You gotta pay more for skilled trades (in fact, that’s reflected in the dreaded union wage scales) so it’s all about whether the client is trying to rip off whoever’s paying for the building or whether they care about quality.

    In Southern California, everybody uses illegal immigrants in construction. Everyone. This is from the largest projects to stores and churches to the guy converting his garage into an apartment who swings by Home Depot to pick up day laborers.

    The skill level is high. If they were legal, many illegal immigrants would probably be union workers. Some Mexican illegal immigrants are highly skilled but could not find work in Mexico because of corruption or poor economic conditions. The same is probably true to some degree with respect to immigrants from Central America.

    American unions are complicit in the use of illegal immigrant labor because it allows them to keep their members’ wages high while keeping the overall labor costs of big construction projects low.

    Hiring illegals allows employers to save on employment taxes (a nice bit of fraud). Initial wages tend to be high (far higher than in agriculture), but raises are not regular or based on union scales.

    By contrast, car washes, which use far lower skilled labor, are notorious both for low wages and for cheating workers. These owners know that they can get another body very easily. Employers in construction tend to treat workers better because even lower level jobs require more skills. This is doubly true for projects which may have early completion bonuses.

    BTW, especially in California, lazy ass economists write nonsense about labor markets, based on theory or outmoded observations about whether illegal immigrants depress wages. Few of them get off their asses or even look out the window.

    The more complex truth is that illegal immigration displaces labor markets. For example, at many coffee shops and mid level restaurants in Southern California, the cooks are almost exclusively illegal immigrants. Citizens and legal residents need not apply for these jobs. In Westwood, where UCLA is located, I once noticed a new restaurant with a sign advertising for various staff positions. The sign was in Spanish. Curious, I checked and could not find any ads for workers in the LA Times, local papers or in any English language job site.

  116. 116
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @Another Halocene Human: A friend of mine is married to Russian woman, the INS interviewed both of them separately for her I-140 (intent to immigrate) interview. Guilty until proven innocent is their motto.

  117. 117
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Roger Moore: Raising the minimum wage big time while taxing the fuck out of unearned income and top earned income would probably fix that problem, but as you say, big business lurrrrrrves them some minimum wage loopholes to exploit migrant workers in.

    But it’s illegal immigration and legal migrant arrangements that overfavor employers that cause the damage (and not just in low pay, low skill jobs, either).

    Helping unions organize, such as EFCA, would help, too. SEIU, UNITE HERE have gone after low wage/low skill workers and they are organizing.

    In my experience, the union rank and file who whine about immigrants, immigrants haven’t thought it through. They also vote white wing. So fuck ’em.

  118. 118
    Roger Moore says:

    @Brachiator:

    Also, too, as I have noted in a couple of places, there may be a sizeable number of immigrants who want a right to work here, but are not necessarily interested in becoming citizens. But the moderately big lie to make immigration reform palatable to some people is to emphasize the “path to citizenship.”

    I think you’re misreading that a little bit. My impression is that the people who are screaming about a path to citizenship are the anti-immigration people. It’s like the screams about Amnesty. They want any immigration reform to be punitive, or at least not advantageous, to people who are currently here illegally. One part of that is making sure that any regularization of undocumented immigrants puts them into a group that explicitly does not have rights to apply for permanent residency and eventual citizenship, i.e. they want to deny them a path to citizenship.

  119. 119
    mds says:

    @Yutsano:

    I still think Susan Rice goes to State.

    Only if the Dem Senate caucus is serious about filibuster reform. Otherwise, BenghaziBenghaziBenghazi.

    @Another Halocene Human:

    The hilarious thing is that Rubio is Florida’s version of a moderate

    The teabagger darling Marco Rubio? The socially and economically far-right Marco Rubio? It’s truly sad that “Not quite as batshit insane on immigration” and “Able to speak in complete sentences in a mildly charming way, even while being a vicious reactionary” are what qualifies as moderate in Florida these days. He’s so far to Bill Nelson’s right, his mailing address might as well be the Bahamas. Bloody hell, what’s next? Ted Cruz, Texas centrist? Paul Ryan, bipartisan moderate? Oh, wait, that last one’s already established narrative.

  120. 120
    Face says:

    Most Latinos I’ve talked to that had an opinion on Cubans were pissed at them because Cubans get a free citizenship pass when they land in the US, and then vote with the GOP to deny an immigration path for all other Latinos. It’s a perfect IGMFU situation.

    THIS. A million times over, this. And the Cubans that I know are extraordinarilly arrogant, maybe becuase they feel superior to other Spanish-speakers becuase of this policy.

  121. 121
    Roger Moore says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    Plus there are some issues with GLBT couples that could very easily be addressed by a Dem majority body, if we ever get one.

    One more reason to hope we can get DOMA thrown out in court, not that I think there’s much of a shot with the Supremes.

  122. 122
    Chris says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    Miami is a gateway for richie riches from South America and their coddled sprogs

    Yeah, I’ve only been here for three months and I’ve pretty much figured that part out. It’s Casablanca for conservative elites from south of the border, not just the Cubans who’ve been here since the revolution but Venezuelan and Bolivian “exiles,” e.g. people who don’t want to pay taxes, too. But as you said, it’s not even that simple because you’ve got a ton of low-income immigrants from all over who, unless they’re Cuban (and nowadays even then) don’t tend to be all that favorably disposed towards the Party of Assholes.

  123. 123
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @Schlemizel: Its not just the economics, GOP with its embrace of racist bigots does not endear itself to even those immigrants who are well off.

    ETA: The demonization of Latinos in the last election cycle has also managed to piss off a lot of other Latinos, who are not necessarily immigrants from Mexico but have been citizens for several generations.

  124. 124
    John says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    LeMieux was Crist’s guy. It was absolutely expected that he would not run for the full term.

  125. 125
    Chris says:

    @Roger Moore:

    It’s not just their economic interests, though. The Republicans aren’t social conservatives in the abstract; they favor a specific social vision that involves minorities shutting up and going back to their ghettos. Is it any wonder that the minorities aren’t terribly fond of that version of social conservatism?

    This.

    Like you said a few days back, “socially conservative” = promoting the supremacy of your culture.

    That doesn’t translate into being right-wing unless you see your culture as part of the dominant national culture. “Ethnic whites” (the Irish, the Italians, the Poles) have produced a lot of Republicans in the last fifty years or so because they see themselves as part of the dominant white/Christian culture – but for most of history, that wouldn’t have been the case, they’d have been outsiders just like today’s immigrants.

  126. 126
    Schlemizel says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Don’t disagree but I bet racial minorities are closer (either personally or socially) to real privation than the middle class whites who are slicing their childrens throats because birth control a race seem more critical to them

  127. 127
    Chris says:

    @Hal:

    It’s amazing to me how fucking transparent these people are.

    Facebook Wingnut Barometer was posting over the weekend that she’d be okay with amnesty if they weren’t allowed to vote for thirty years, as penance for the crime of entering the country or something.

    Yeah, like you said… pretty fucking transparent. “I want slaves, but not the kind who can VOTE!”

  128. 128
    jeremy says:

    @Roger Moore: True !
    But I think the President is going to push hard for immigration reform and I think we will get some reform. The GOP leadership is scared of this issue and the last thing they want is Obama barn storming the Country and going to Univision and Latino communities fighting for this issue.

    The president is concerned about his legacy and about doing the right thing. I see him going all in on this issue.

  129. 129

    Chapter 3, Paul Krugman’s “Conscience Of A Liberal,” quotes a 1957 editorial in The National Review:

    “The central question that emerges — and it is not a parliamentary question or a question that is answered by merely consulting a catalog of the rights of American citizens, born Equal — is whether the White community in the South is entitled to take such measures as are necessary to prevail, politically and culturally, in areas in which it does not predominate numerically? The sobering answer is Yes — the White community is so entitled because, for the time being. it is the advanced race …
    __
    National Review believes that the South’s premises are correct. If the majority wills what is socially atavistic, then to thwart the majority may be, though undemocratic, enlightened. It is more important for any community, anywhere in the world, to affirm and live by civilized standards, than to bow to the demands of the numerical majority, in which case it must give way, and the society will regress; sometimes the numerical minority cannot prevail except by violence: then it must determine whether the prevalence of its will is worth the terrible price of its violence.”

    To which Krugman sourly observes:

    The “catalog of the rights of American citizens, born Equal” dismissed by the editorial would, presumably, be the document known as the Constitution of the United States.

    Above from my May 2012 post, “Shh… Use Your Indoor Voice.” Links, etc. there.

  130. 130
    El Cid says:

    @Chris: Remember that one aspect of the “Southern Strategy” was to convince racially resentful white “ethnics” (who didn’t used to be part of the WASP coalition of the Republican Northeast / Midwest) to join with Republicans in their opposition to neighborhood integration, to busing, to welfare, etc.

    The Southern Strategy worked all around the country, just not as thoroughly or completely as it did in its most intended area.

  131. 131
    Face says:

    From what I hear, the cheapest construction workers are Central Americans and their skill level is very poor.

    They dont allow any illegal workers in Las Vegas construction companies. Word on the street is that they’re just not skilled enough. Whether that’s a union line or actually factual, I have no idea. But every hotel and casino built is supposedly 100% unionized citizens, FWIW.

  132. 132
    Pinkamena Panic says:

    @Brachiator: Count the number of times “illegal immigrant” or just “illegal” is used in that post. Remember when it wasn’t considered acceptable to use that term?

    The right gets to win even when they lose. That’s what makes this all so difficult.

  133. 133
    Brachiator says:

    @Schlemizel:

    LIMBAUGH: It’s a race thing. They’re just not quite dark—as dark, and they’re oriented toward work.

    Thanks for this.

    Goddamn, these people are fools. And their idiot racism is flowing freely like shit from an overstuffed sewer.

    BTW, there’s an old joke popular among some Mexicans that depicts ALL Cubans as inherently lazier than Mexicans.

    And fools like Limbaugh could never comprehend that skin color is a poor proxy for ethnic ancestry among Latin peoples (or most groups anywhere).

    And the bottom line is that Republicans who believe that they can insult other Latino groups by playing to the myth of the hard working white Cuban, and still magically win the Latino vote, are smoking some serious crack.

    Boy I saw that dynamic up close when I lived in Florida! El Pussbo is right about one thing though, the Cubans are very color conscious (at least the old guard the kids are much better).

    Colorism is a big thing among many Latino groups. A popular, furious Puerto Rican poem might be translated as “Your granma, where she at?” about a light skinned Puerto Rican who hids his grandmother in the kitchen when his friends come by. I don’t know if it is still a big issue, but some years ago, Mexican newspapers would have classifieds that explicitly advertised for European looking women as secretaries and receptionists, as opposed to applicants who were too Indian looking.

    Ironically, Yucatecos are perceived to have an almost magical combination of skill, determination, and artistic temperament.

    It’s more complicated than most gabachos can comprehend, especially those who want to try to squeeze Latino views into an easy equivalent of liberal vs conservative or Democratic vs Republican.

  134. 134
    El Cid says:

    @Brachiator: One of the huge changes in the last generation of leadership in Latin America is that national leadership (Presidencies etc) have been assumed by people who not only have the ‘mixed’ heritage most do, but who actually look like the indigenous & African heritage people they are. It’s been a huge, huge change. It had been 500 years since someone looking like Evo Morales had run the area now known as Bolivia. Lula da Silva of Brazil was feared by many as much because of his Workers Party and trades union and anti-dictatorship activities as his mixed-race background from the shantytowns.

  135. 135
    Chris says:

    @El Cid:

    Yep, indeed.

    I realized that if you look at political demographics, Southerners and [white European immigrant… put that in front of the word] Catholics follow pretty much the same patterns. They were the two pillars of the Democratic Party after the Civil War (as the big losers in a landscape dominated by the Yankee/WASP Republicans). Which meant they were the two immediate big winners when the Democrats took over politics in 1932, becoming fully integrated into the national landscape in the years that followed. And they were the two demographics that Nixon and Reagan drew the most “Southern Strategy” Democrats away from with their revolution.

    (“Catholics” as a whole may be split right down the middle nowadays, but I’m curious how that would hold up if you limited yourself to “white Catholics.”)

  136. 136
    cckids says:

    @japa21:

    True, but he actually had a house there.

    I’m quite sure the Bush clan has a house that Jeb can claim as “his” if it becomes politically convenient. See Mitt re: “living in his son’s unfinished basement” while running for MA governer. It isn’t as though they have some respect for truth or laws or anything.

  137. 137
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @Schlemizel: Oh I don’t disagree, all I am saying is that the GOP message manages to piss off even those minorities/immigrants who are well off, part of the 1% even.

  138. 138
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @cckids: So Mitt is the basement cat, I should have known!

  139. 139
    jeremy says:

    @Roger Moore: Anthony Kennedy is pretty libertarian when it comes to social issues like gay rights. So it could happen.

  140. 140
    Schlemizel says:

    @Brachiator:

    WAIT!? THOSE PEOPLE are not all the same? Color me (pun intended) shocked!

    I have read that parts of Latin America, Brazil particularly are pretty egalitarian and not color conscious; do you think that is true?

    I worked with a group of Indonesian immigrants back in the 60’s and for them you had to be ‘just right’ too light or too dark was viewed as a bad thing. My Cuban friend was very upset when he called home from college to tell his mom he had a Cuban girlfriend. He assumed she would be thrilled. Instead she all she wanted to know was light or dark Cuban.

    Its stunning and sad, yet apparently natural that we draw lines like this and nobody seems to be immune

  141. 141
    Literalreddy says:

    @Schlemizel: Unfortunately, Brazil can be just as bad. They have ads that request ‘good-looking’ candidates which is code for light skinned.
    No matter what group you find the light = beauty thing is there. In the Middle East and Asia, you have the skin-lightening creams that are sold by major multinationals (Loreal, Dove, Unilever) and advertised as such.

  142. 142
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    @Schlemizel:

    Not according to the bloated pustual Rush Lamebrain. He explained to the sheep that Rubio is not Hispanic he is Cuban and they are not liked by Hispanics because they (the Cubans) “value work”. He also pointed out it was partially driven by race as Cubans are whiter.

    That is hilarious. Rush actually had a true observation–that most Hispanics don’t like Cubans–and somehow turned into something even worse for the GOP. It’s like he actively tried to fall into a pile of horse manure.

  143. 143
    El Cid says:

    @Bubblegum Tate: It used to be that the party leadership and their peers saw Rush as the guy who did the cattle-calling to the excitable dopes, and it was very useful and lucrative.

    Those insider types knew the difference between the world they operated in and the Limbaugh world that the excitable dopes heard about.

    Now, however, the excitable dopes are the party leadership, and they still actually believe the stuff Rush says.

  144. 144
    mainmati says:

    @Scott S.: 7,000 millionaires this year paid 0 in Federal income taxes. Rich people like free stuff too.

  145. 145
    Brachiator says:

    @Roger Moore:

    RE:Also, too, as I have noted in a couple of places, there may be a sizeable number of immigrants who want a right to work here, but are not necessarily interested in becoming citizens. But the moderately big lie to make immigration reform palatable to some people is to emphasize the “path to citizenship.”

    I think you’re misreading that a little bit.

    No. Becoming a legal resident is not the same thing as becoming a citizen. There are many people like my mother-in-law who was a legal resident, but who retired to Mexico. Becoming an American citizen would have complicated her rights to property she still owned in Mexico. Her children are all legal, but not all of them have ever tried to become citizens. This is a very common story.

    @Pinkamena Panic:

    Count the number of times “illegal immigrant” or just “illegal” is used in that post. Remember when it wasn’t considered acceptable to use that term? The right gets to win even when they lose. That’s what makes this all so difficult.

    I have no problem with using the term “illegal immigrant” when it describes people who do not have a legal right to be in the United States under current law. I prefer this to less accurate phrases like “undocumented worker.”

    The right is not winning here. They are scared for their lives and their unwarranted sense of privilege.

  146. 146
    El Cid says:

    @Schlemizel: Even the Cuban regime itself had to be forced to recognize the role of Afro-Cubans in their Communist society supposedly free of bourgeois biases and imperialist ways of thinking, and that discrimination against Afro-Cubans was solved by revolutionary economic changes and declarations of equality.

    Fidel Castro, in 2000:

    I am not claiming that our country is a perfect model of equality and justice. We believed at the beginning that when we established the fullest equality before the law and complete intolerance for any demonstration of sexual discrimination in the case of women, or racial discrimination in the case of ethnic minorities, these phenomena would vanish from our society.
    __
    It was some time before we discovered that marginality and racial discrimination with it are not something that one gets rid of with a law or even with ten laws, and we have not managed to eliminate them completely in 40 years.

    Funny, he might as well have been talking about the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act and the Supreme Court decisions breaking down legalized segregation.

    Needless to say, the “Cuban exile community” of the US — primarily South Florida and New Jersey — also wasn’t big on promoting their Afro-Cuban heritage.

  147. 147
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    @Chris:

    Facebook Wingnut Barometer

    I’m stealing this, by the way.

  148. 148
    Roger Moore says:

    @Brachiator:

    Becoming a legal resident is not the same thing as becoming a citizen.

    It isn’t the same thing, but they’re steps on the same pathway. You have to become a permanent resident before you can become a citizen. That some people choose to stop partway down the path doesn’t mean they aren’t on the path, and saying that people should have the option of becoming citizens doesn’t mean that they should be forced to take that option. What anti-immigration people want, as a minimum, is for people currently here illegally to be shunted onto a separate, dead end path that never leads to citizenship.

  149. 149
    Schlemizel says:

    @Bubblegum Tate:

    I hope this does not come off sounding as too ignorant but I am ignorant on this topic.

    If a Honduran, a Cuban and a Mexican immigrant were all have a beer in the local one night would they be able to easily identify country of origin & if so how?

    I grew up in a neighborhood of Swedes & Norwegians & the old timers hated each other. the only difference I could see was the ‘son’ vs ‘sen’ suffixes. Across the highway there were Turks & Greeks. There I could see some visual differences & of course the religion thing. I did some reading on Shia vs Sunni & its mostly family names & villages there. So I’d like to add this bit of knowledge to the bank

  150. 150
    Rafer Janders says:

    @Schlemizel:

    I have read that parts of Latin America, Brazil particularly are pretty egalitarian and not color conscious; do you think that is true?

    No. Simply put, no. There is color consciousness throughout Latin America, including Brazil. Generally, the richer the milieu, the more white/European people look, while in the poorer neighborhoods, people tend to be more dark-skinned (black, Indian, etc.).

  151. 151
    Rafer Janders says:

    @Schlemizel:

    If a Honduran, a Cuban and a Mexican immigrant were all have a beer in the local one night would they be able to easily identify country of origin & if so how?

    Of course, by accent alone. The same way that a Canadian, a New Yorker, and a Texan (or an American, an Englishman and an Australian, etc. etc.) for example, would be able to tell who was who, even though they all speak English.

  152. 152
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @Roger Moore: Well is it any wonder that the Party of 1% and the Confederacy wants a population of non-citizens who will never be able to vote.

  153. 153
    Steeplejack says:

    @Schlemizel:

    If a Honduran, a Cuban and a Mexican immigrant were all have a beer in the local one night would they be able to easily identify country of origin & if so how?

    If they were speaking Spanish, by variations in accent, slang and idiomatic expressions.

  154. 154
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Schlemizel:

    When I was in Honduras in 1985, I had an NCO who spoke fluent Puerto Rican Spanish (as he was Puerto Rican). He tried to serve as an interpreter for me (my Spanish is, and was, beyond rusty) and he told me he might as well have been trying to interpret Chinese.

  155. 155
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    Of course, by accent alone

    Exactly. When I visited Singapore, I shared a table with some Aussies, and we all could tell exactly where everyone was from, by the accent.

    We still had a great time, though, tossing back Singapore Slings at Raffles.

  156. 156
    Rafer Janders says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    It’s that way across a lot of languages. I speak German, but I can barely understand what the Swiss and the Austrians are saying when they speak to each other; I have to ask them to switch to High German.

  157. 157
    Schlemizel says:

    I don’t want to end up in mod hell so I won’t link to all of you but thanks to each. I assume something like that but wondered if there were other differences. If there was just a name and picture probably no difference but accent makes it obvious.

    See, as a white American guy its pretty simple, Chinese, Middle Eastern, Latin American – meh, ya look alike to me ;)

  158. 158
    Schlemizel says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    When I spoke German to my Cousins in Hanover they made fun of me because it was too formal. I worked really hard on the accent but it didn’t matter the Germans spotted me as a fake every time. They all said grossvater sounded like an old time movie but he left there in 1916 so he probably spoke an old fashion style

  159. 159
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    Yeah, we had an exchange student from Tübingen in my dorm my senior year, and the next year I was stationed in Germany and went there to visit her.

    I knocked on her door, and her Schwäbisch speaking grandmother answered the door, and I tried out my Hochdeutsch on her, and she understood me, but I couldn’t understand her. My friend the exchange student was highly amused by this, because she told me my Hochdeutsch was quite good, but understood why her grandmother threw me for a loop.

  160. 160
    Chris says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    It’s that way across a lot of languages. I speak German, but I can barely understand what the Swiss and the Austrians are saying when they speak to each other; I have to ask them to switch to High German.

    Similar experience here. Took two years of Arabic in undergrad, studied abroad in Cairo and actually started from scratch on “colloquial” Arabic. I know there’s always regional differences, but it literally felt like two different languages, like French and Spanish rather than American and British.

  161. 161
    Brachiator says:

    @Schlemizel:

    I have read that parts of Latin America, Brazil particularly are pretty egalitarian and not color conscious; do you think that is true?

    Oh, hell, no. Brazil is particularly complicated. You have some areas where denial and blatant discrimination is still high. There was a documentary I saw some years ago in which a “white” Brazilian flat out denied that Carnaval had any roots in African culture.

    And a couple of years ago, some researcher did a genetic test on a number of notable Brazilians. Most were accepting of the results, but some (even some black Brazilians) were freaked out at the various combinations of African, indigenous, and European ancestry that they had.

    On the other hand, I recall seeing an interview with a Brazilian model who pretty much said: “I am perfect. I have light skin, pert Indian breasts and a high African butt.” Hard to argue with that.

    Venezuela, which churns out beauty pageant contestants, still has a hangup over European standards of beauty. In Bolivia and Peru, the Aymara women fight back against this insipid sexual imperialism. Complete with their bowler hats.

  162. 162
    Roger Moore says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Exactly. When I visited Singapore, I shared a table with some Aussies, and we all could tell exactly where everyone was from, by the accent.

    I was able to wow my (mostly non-native English speaking) coworkers by correctly placing an accent as working class London. I’m sure that watching some BBC helps with getting to that level of detail, but they honestly couldn’t even tell what country the guy was from and were guessing obviously wrong stuff like Ireland.

  163. 163
    Sad_Dem says:

    Before there was Brewer, there was California’s Pete Wilson and Prop 187. The GOP has done its best for years to alienate Latinos, and 2012 showed the fruits of those efforts.

  164. 164
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    @Schlemizel:

    If a Honduran, a Cuban and a Mexican immigrant were all have a beer in the local one night would they be able to easily identify country of origin & if so how?

    Like others have said, by the accent. The Cuban dialect is particularly pronounced (see what I did there?), too–it’s practically its own branch of Spanish at this point, so the Cuban would stick out like a sore thumb.

  165. 165
    Rafer Janders says:

    On the other hand, I recall seeing an interview with a Brazilian model who pretty much said: “I am perfect. I have light skin, pert Indian breasts and a high African butt.” Hard to argue with that.

    She’s my girlfriend.

  166. 166
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Brachiator: From what I hear, the cheapest construction workers are Central Americans and their skill level is very poor.

    Just not true.

    Well then maybe the skilled ones go to hi-wage Cali because we shore as shit ain’t getting skilled ones ou’chere!

    Speaking of looking out the window, if you can’t figure out how to use a plumb line, you might be driving nails but what you ain’t is a carpenter.

    And excuse me, but I did say Central America by which I was not referring to Mexico, which is in North America. Thank you.

  167. 167
    Schlemizel says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    This reminded me of somethign I had not thought of in years. Back in the 60s there was a guy who ran the high end restaurant at the high end hotel in Minneapolis named Henry Wolf. He talked a local radio station into giving him air time to interview the various semi-celebs who appeared for a free meal at his place. It turned into a Sunday “Public Service” show on the local TV/

    Hank was an Austrian refugee of WWII & spoke with a thick accent. One of the most unintentionally hilarious interviews was with then SoS Hank Kissinger. Neither could understand a word the other said so 50% of the thing was one or the other saying VAT?

  168. 168
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @jeremy: And Rubio has so many skeletons in his closet that if I were him I would stay away from running in 2016.

    Lol, the difference between Texas Republicans and Florida Republicans is that Florida is full of snitches. In Tejas, “Dead men don’t tell tales.”

    But we do know that Florida Republican primary voters don’t give a hoot about lawbreaking, oathbreaking, money-taking, any of that.

  169. 169
    Brachiator says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    And excuse me, but I did say Central America by which I was not referring to Mexico, which is in North America. Thank you.

    Again, I don’t know what the situation is where you live. In Southern California, Latino workers from Mexico and Central America are fairly skilled and there appears to be a system to get the best workers. And, as I noted, everybody participates in the system to hire good illegal immigrant workers, even the unions.

    In the city of Industry, Bell, Bell Gardens and other areas, Latinos, legal immigrants and illegal immigrants, are also heavily involved in interior carpentry and remodeling, bringing skills that rival anyone anywhere. The same is true of glasswork, auto work, cabinet and stone work. You name it.

    @Roger Moore:

    RE: Becoming a legal resident is not the same thing as becoming a citizen.

    It isn’t the same thing, but they’re steps on the same pathway.

    We don’t necessarily disagree. I simply said, and say again, that many Latinos want to be able to work in the US. They have no interest in becoming citizens. Hell, significant numbers of Irish immigrants in the late 19th and early 20th centuries returned home. With modern transportation and other considerations, you have significant numbers of people who do not want to give up their home countries.

    In a hurry here, got a meeting, but there is some South American country that considered giving the vote to non-citizen immigrants.

    Also, btw, before anti-immigrant fever took hold, there was a considerable degree of open movement across borders. There still is in some California and Texas border communities.

  170. 170
    Brachiator says:

    @El Cid:

    Needless to say, the “Cuban exile community” of the US —primarily South Florida and New Jersey—also wasn’t big on promoting their Afro-Cuban heritage.

    A friend and former co-worker is young, but still fervently anti-Castro, mainly because of her family’s memories and experiences. And she is Afro-Cuban. And her grandfather was Chinese. She is also, btw, married to a Spaniard. The Spanish spoken by various relatives is almost unintelligible by other family members.

    She and another friend made me aware of the wonder of Cuban Chinese food.

    But I agree with your larger point about the complexity of some Cubans in dealing with Afro Cuban and also indigenous heritage.

  171. 171
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Schlemizel:

    If you ever read Anthony Bourdain’s Kitchen Confidential, he has an essay about how to run a kitchen and one of his first rules is that you must understand which countries in Latin America your kitchen staff came from when you decide who works in which position. If you put a Salvadoran whose family fled right-wing death squads and a Cuban whose family fled Castro next to each other and give them both knives, there will be blood.

  172. 172
    Rafer Janders says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Oh, indeed. And that’s true across a variety of situations. Had a very amusing evening once when I was with a Vietnamese-American girl, and some fellows, in a misguided attempt to sympathize with her, made noises about “oh, Vietnamese War, how terrible for your country that must have been with the Americans, colonialism, gosh” etc., only to have her fly into a rage because her dad had been an ARVN colonel, they hated the Communists, and she’d had to flee Saigon at the age of eight with only the clothes on her back and crammed into the back of a US Navy helicopter.

  173. 173
    Paul in KY says:

    @Randy P: Couldn’t believe we got the majority of Cubans! That has to really sting. Et tu, Cubanos?

  174. 174
    Paul in KY says:

    @Bubblegum Tate: When I lived in S. Florida, one of the things that brought American whites & blacks together was a dislike of Cubans.

  175. 175
    Paul in KY says:

    @Schlemizel: Different dialects of Spanish, and in some cases, differing physical features.

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