This is what I call a good start:
Graham B. Spanier, the former president of Penn State, was charged Thursday with helping to cover up the child abuse allegations involving Jerry Sandusky that have roiled the university and its famed football program over the past year.
During a news conference, Pennsylvania’s attorney general, Linda Kelly, said Spanier faced five charges: perjury, obstruction of justice, endangering the welfare of children, criminal conspiracy and failure to report suspected child abuse. She also said that two other former university officials — Gary Schultz, the former university vice president, and Tim Curley, the former athletic director — would face the same five charges.
A good finish would be a bunch of bishops and monsignors facing the same charges.
Ash Can
Hear, hear.
MikeJ
Villago Delenda Est
Absolutely.
Followed by the imprisonment of most of the CEOs of major financial companies, after stripping them, and their heirs, of every fucking penny they have.
muddy
@MikeJ: And evil Boy Scout leaders. And my mom, but she’s in hell already.
MikeJ
Personally I’m fine with using drones to take out Cardinal Law.
schrodinger's cat
What about Cheney and Rummy and all the torturers of Bush II, regime.
muddy
@MikeJ: Me too. especially if he’s standing next to Nazi Papa.
aimai
I thought one of the odd things about the article was the emphasis on the fact that Spanier lied to the trustees. It felt like they were saying “Child abuse, molestation, abuse of the charity–sure! But even worse you lied to the old white guys on the board!”
aimai
Joel
@MikeJ: Repo-ing church property would be a nice follow-up.
Joel
@MikeJ: Repo-ing church property would be a nice follow-up.
Humanities Grad
If there are any lawyers here, could you help me out with something?
Given the stated charges, if Spanier is convicted, could he be looking an actual prison time?
JPL
I read a few tweets and Spanier wrote about Sandusky’s guests. Guests, really, guests..
Violet
@aimai: Feature not a bug. That’s how the old white guys roll.
scav
And, don’t want to omit the other side of the Atlantic, the Jimmy Savile stuff is dredging up some similar observations, adding to the whole “Is this a pattern which I see before me, its handle toward my hand?” moment.
Violet
@scav: Yeah, the Savile stuff was all over the news last weekend in London. Hurricane Sandy took the top spot, then lots of time on Savile. They arrested Gary Glitter on Sunday morning.
Yutsano
@Violet: The BBC was copying Ancient Rome. They just chose to hide it.
Ken
Yes, but the dead-end PSU fans still cry foul that the evidence is unconvincing and that JoPa was unjustly railroaded into this mess, because he’s well, St.Joseph of Happy Valley. They also blame their football losses on officiating. Trust me, these are some effed up people.
The Red Pen
I expect the USCCB to issue a press release condemning this brazen attack on Spanier’s freedom of religion.
Comrade Dread
Amen to that.
Violet
@Yutsano: I don’t think this is going to go well for the BBC.
MikeJ
@Violet: At least there’s no salute to Joe Paterno scheduled for xmas day.
The Red Pen
One thing I love about Freepers is their anecdotes. They actually believe they sound realistic. Example:
And the the Obama supporter rode off on his unicorn!
Elizabelle
I have no sympathy for JoPa and the leadership of Penn State’s football program and university at large.
However, it did always feel like they were taking the punishment for the sins of Paterno’s beloved Catholic Church as well.
Agree that bishops and church leadership should be criminally and then civilly prosecuted with as much fervor as that directed at the Happy Valley crew.
They’ve gotten away with too much for too long, and their enablers need a good shaking.
SatanicPanic
@Violet: That story is awful. Gary on his own was bad enough, never imagined he had an accomplice and that people were ignoring it.
cathyx
This, more than anything, will help keep this from happening again. Big wigs don’t want to go to jail.
burnspbesq
@Villago Delenda Est:
On what charges, and based on what evidence?
The Constitution and the rule of law are such damnable inconveniences sometimes, aren’t they?
burnspbesq
@aimai:
You charge them with what you think you can prove. This goes in the “Al Capone went down for tax evasion” category.
Violet
@burnspbesq: Tax evasion, of course. It’s what gets everyone when they can’t be got on their real crimes.
Edit: Ha! See you beat me to it.
burnspbesq
@Humanities Grad:
Abso-fucking-lutely. Perjury and obstruction of justice are serious felonies. So is failure to report suspected child abuse. And any argument that these are victimless technical violations of obscure statutes is a dog that will not hunt.
Maude
@burnspbesq:
These aren’t slap on the wrist charges.
gene108
PA passed a law, in response to the Church sex abuse litigation that sprang up over the last 10 years that allowed for people to be convicted for covering up sexual abuse acts.
I know at least one prominent Catholic church member in the Philadelphia area has been convicted via this law, but his name escapes me at the moment.
A lot of the problem are the statute of limitations regarding childhood sexual abuse that have been in place in many states and that don’t get revisited, unless a state is dealing with something like the Catholic church abuse issue.
Napoleon
@Violet:
With Capone part of the reason they went with tax evasion was that Prohibition was not popular so they didn’t want to take a chance with jury nullification. My understanding is they had a solid case against him prepared for violating it though.
burnspbesq
@Violet:
What income did they fail to report?
burnspbesq
@gene108:
Convicted and sentenced. I don’t remember the name either, but I remember he got three to ten.
geg6
@Ken:
Well, I am in a position to know that 99% of the PSU fans, staff/faculty, alumni, and students are just fine with how things have gone so far, especially now that Spanier has finally been charged. Bill O’Brien is now the standard for football coaches and we are very proud of what he’s managed to do with the team under the absolute worst of circumstances. And quite a few would be perfectly fine with digging up JoePa and putting his corpse on trial, too.
Don’t paint us all with your big, broad brush. Just because the PSU fans you know are assholes doesn’t mean all of us are. Perhaps that has more to do with your circle of acquaintances than it does with reality for the vast majority of us.
Brachiator
@SatanicPanic:
Jimmy Saville was bigger than Gary Glitter ever was, and carried on his crimes for far longer.
The tributes and fawning obituaries to Saville are disgusting in the light of what may have been deliberately suppressed.
And the extent to which monuments to Saville are being altered makes taking down Paterno’s statue look like small cheese.
@Yutsano:
Ironic how the Brits are using a variation on a Roman tradition in dealing with Saville.
Roger Moore
FTFY.
@aimai:
There’s some justice to the complaint. Failure to report the abuse was the root of most of the other problems. These guys had a responsibility to let the appropriate authorities know what they knew. By keeping it internal, they denied their bosses (and the police, prosecutors, etc.) the knowledge they needed to do their jobs.
Legalize
@Humanities Grad:
Absolutely. A lot of it.
Maude
Mayor Bloomberg has just endorsed Obama. Huh.
Violet
@burnspbesq: I haven’t the slightest idea. I’m certain something illegal could be found out about most of them if people looked hard enough and/or incentivized the right people to talk.
As I’ve mentioned before, I worked for a time in the financial services industry and so many of the guys I encountered there seemed to play fast and loose with rules and felt they don’t apply to them. I don’t think it would be too difficult to find examples of illegality, should someone decide to look into it.
Exactly what that illegality would be and where one should look is far out of my area of knowledge. But based on the personality types, the “rules don’t apply to me” attitudes, and the win-at-all-costs mentality, I am fairly confident that corners were cut, rules were broken and illegal things happened.
Amir Khalid
@Violet:
The DG of the BBC at the time it dropped the investigation into Jimmy Savile, Mark Thompson, is also the incoming CEO of the NYT Co. I suppose there’s an outside chance that, should it turn out that the BBC’s culpability in letting Savile abuse girls on its own premises reach near enough to Thompson, that NYT might suspend his appointment.
Joey Maloney
@Villago Delenda Est: And finishing with the last
princeCEO being strangled with the entrails of the last bishop.Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Maude:
Shouldn’t surprise anyone. The only reason he left the Democratic Party was because he couldn’t beat out Mark Green for the mayoral nomination in ’01. Bloomberg’s the same DLCer he always was.
Elizabelle
@Brachiator:
Isn’t that a little of what’s going on with George W. Bush?
And why so many suffer from Romnesia?
They don’t want to remember they supported that fool and his policies. Which don’t work.
mcmullje
Amen
mcmullje
Amen
Violet
@Amir Khalid: Yeah, that’s an interesting twist, isn’t it? I wonder what the NYT is going to do. I know initially they’re claiming that nothing is going to change and he’s still got the job. As investigations go on, I wonder if that will still be true.
Richard
In a just world, the Catholic Church would have found itself the target of a RICO investigation long ago.
MikeJ
@Maude:
Failure to report child abuse looks like a 3rd degree misdemeanor (23 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 6319) for a first offense, 2nd degree for subsequent. 3rd degree limits jail time (on that count) to 1 year. 2nd degree is 2 years. (18 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 106)
Endangering the welfare of children: 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 4304
An offense under this section constitutes a misdemeanor of the first degree. However, where there is a course of conduct of endangering the welfare of a child, the offense constitutes a felony of the third degree.
Shawn in ShowMe
@geg6:
Could you elaborate on what you mean by “just fine with how things have gone?” Are you saying only 1% of Happy Valley thinks JoePa got railroaded?
AA+ Bonds
Correct
KG
Totally off topic and all that, but since we’re talking about good starts… the Rueters/Ipso poll of Virginia and Ohio show Obama with huge leads in early voting.
Virginia (13% of respondents said they voted early) 68-30 Obama
Ohio (32% of respondents said they voted early) 60-32 Obama
He’s also leading in early voting in Florida (35% of respondents) 53-45. Oh and 61% of respondents in Colorado said they voted early, they’ve broken 50-43 for Obama.
(clears throat)… VICTORY!
Heh.
ETA: linky
AA+ Bonds
@Richard:
Even more correct
gex
NOM just dropped $1.6 million into the marriage amendment fight in MN. When I volunteered for MUAF they said that the traditional marriage folks like to make a hard push the last couple of weeks, so their lies can’t be debunked before people vote. There seemed to be some evidence that their “teaching it in schools” ads really moved the needle when Prop 8 was on the ballot, and those are exactly the ads they’ve unleashed in MN recently.
Thing is, NOM gets almost all their money from something like 5 donors. And, although the US Supreme Court denied their request to keep their donors hidden, they still haven’t revealed them. Enough has been seen that they get most of their money from the Catholic Church and Catholics (such as Knights of Columbus).
I am very, very tired of this trend of the Church just not having to follow secular law.
Oh, and BTW, their late push of lies seems to be working. A ton of Vote Yes signs popped up in my neighborhood recently.
geg6
@Roger Moore:
Not only that, but it put University governance and finances at risk, which are the purview of the Board of Trustees.
The satisfaction so many here have taken in punishing the innocent in this horrible situation has been very eye opening. Football players, who had nothing to with any of this and weren’t ever coached by Sandusky, get punished. Many here have advocated for the University to lose its ability to get Title IV funding, meaning our students, the student body at the largest public university in the state and one of the largest in the nation, would not have access to student aid. Hell, I’ve been told by people on this site that I should quit my job or hang my head in shame for the rest of my life.
The saddest thing of all is that Sandusky was doing this stuff long before he ever came to PSU. Local news has been reporting on victims coming forward from 50 years ago when he worked at his parents youth center. This guy, like so many of the Catholic priests and Boy Scout leaders, has been doing this all his life. But Penn State is still the scapegoat while the Catholic Church gets to dictate women’s health care without anyone saying boo and no one in the Boy Scouts, who have covered up many more and much worse child rapes, has yet to have anyone prosecuted, let alone voluntarily offered to pay out at least $60 million in settlements.
The latest Sandusky victim to come out publicly:
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2012/10/29/man-claims-sandusky-sexually-assaulted-him-over-40-years-ago/
gex
@aimai: I would guess that emphasis is to protect the board. Everyone in this keeps saying the people below their level of responsibility lied to them to stay out of trouble. I don’t think this is any different.
AA+ Bonds
What the Church needs is a new movement of adamant heretics who claim their own orthodoxy; they will be denounced and perhaps excommunicated; then the next movement will arise with the same complaints and be considered apostates who reconcile with Rome; then, finally, a third movement will arise with the same complaints and be considered orthodox
It’s the way it goes
In truth, it is the American bishops (and many more: Paul Ryan, Newt Gingrich, etc.) who are apostates and heretics – but this will only be realized in hindsight
geg6
@Shawn in ShowMe:
It is a small number of people who are still screaming about this. When you consider the 86,000 students who are here right now, the thousands of faculty and staff, and the millions of alumni, yes, it’s a very small but vocal number. A large percentage of University employees were on the Sandusky jury, after all. All the JoePa diehards at my campus gave up the ghost as the Sandusky prosecution started to go forward and we could read the pleadings and indictments and affadavits. I’m not saying that every single person ever connected to the University has given up their hero worship of JoePa (yes, I’m sadly looking at you, Franco Harris), assuming they ever had it to begin with, as not all of us did, myself included, but I work here and I know literally thousands of Penn State grads and I don’t personally know anyone who doesn’t think justice isn’t being done.
Shawn in ShowMe
@geg6:
Joe Biden said she show me your budget and I’ll tell you what you value. I’d add, tell me you what you did this weekend and I’ll tell you what you value. The American sports culture is a much bigger deal than the Boy Scouts ever was. As for the Catholic Church, they’re one of the biggest property owners in this country. The landed aristocracy plays by a different set of rules — always have.
AA+ Bonds
@geg6:
Not the Church – the false apostles that make up the USCCB; if the Church in America (that is, the Body and its faithful leaders) were to dictate women’s health care, it would be more or less in line with the Democratic Party platform
Ash Can
@AA+ Bonds: Interesting point.
AA+ Bonds
The way to see it clearly is that the American bishops are no more representative of the apostolic Church and the Body of Christ than Sandusky is representative of Penn State students or Ben Nelson is representative of Democrats
They are all, to put it bluntly, Satanic elements; it is rare that justice finds them in this lifetime
Roger Moore
@Richard:
In a just world, the Catholic Church would have been destroyed long before the United States was founded, much less RICO.
AA+ Bonds
@Roger Moore:
And, destroyed with it, the Democratic Party of the northeastern United States, the rise of FDR and the New Deal, and the political rise of American social-state liberalism in the 20th century? No thanks
Violet
@AA+ Bonds: For those of us who are not Catholic, who only watch the Catholic Church machinations from the sidelines, it sure seems like the Catholic Church, from the Pope on down, are meddling in US Politics. I understand that you are drawing distinctions, but the lines seem much less clear than you are claiming.
Robin G.
@gex: Those “teaching in school” ads suck, though. I mean, they literally say (in grave voices) that schools can teach that “boys can marry boys.” It’s one small step away from “Teh buttsecks! Eeeeeewwww!!!!!” Childish. I thought the (BS) ads about how churches and charities lost rights and funding if they didn’t support gay marriage ti be more effective.
geg6
@AA+ Bonds:
What a load of hooey. You think it’s just the American bishops who want to put women back in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant, or who covered up and enabled child abuse? You are ignorant as hell if that is what you think.
As for your “satanic elements”, it is to laugh. There is no other lifetime, so if they aren’t punished here and now that’s it.
I grew up with that bullshit and never believed it then. It astounds me that an adult still does, especially in this day and age and after all we have seen from this international crime syndicate.
AA+ Bonds
There is absolutely nothing wrong with worldly authorities guided by Christ bringing Christ’s justice to bear on secular clergy who have strayed from the Church but continue to command its earthly riches, engaging in usury, cruelty, the defiling of children, etc.
In fact, it is the duty of such leaders to bring false apostles to justice and the duty of the orders and laypersons to support such worldly authorities in their task. See: the entire goddamn history of Europe
So, yes, RICO, at the very least. Probably the best possible option would be to renew, on a national scale, the recent Connecticut initiatives, to place parish wealth and resources in the hands of parishioners
geg6
@AA+ Bonds:
Exactly how is the Catholic Church in any way responsible for FDR or the New Deal? I’ll just sit here and anxiously await your brilliant explanation of that.
AA+ Bonds
@geg6:
Incorrect. That is not what I “believe” because it is not true.
A minority of American Catholic apostates also believe that priests should rape children, that the poor should starve, that the worker has no rights, etc. A smaller minority of American “Catholics” are straight-up Randians, social Darwinists, believe in capitalism as the natural state, and are outright heretics.
But their support or lack thereof is too a large degree irrelevant, because the secular clergy in America are Satan’s tools and Rome either ignores or supports them.
Fundamental reform is needed after reflection on the Gospel and the doctors; this will be indistinguishable from revolution from those who seek to defend their positions. (Paul Ryan, for instance, who definitely either does not know or does not care what Thomas Aquinas wrote.)
AA+ Bonds
@geg6:
The Irish, the Church, Tammany Hall and Democratic politics in general in the American Northeast from the Civil War to the Kennedys. The Lord works in mysterious ways, his wonders to behold.
Violet
@AA+ Bonds:
WTF? What if the “worldly authorities” are Muslim? Or Jewish? Or Buddhist? Or Hindu? Or atheists? Would that render their justice any less authoritative?
If Church authorities break they law, they should pay. End of story. Bring on the Muslim or Hindu judge to deliver their justice.
AA+ Bonds
@Violet:
Again, it’s a matter of reading history. There is no contradiction in identifying the infidel’s hand guided by God against false prophets and apostles who proclaim over and over their faith and orthodoxy. The authority in question might well be Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Daoist, atheist, and on and on.
The doctors were informed by pagan philosophers as they explicated principles of law and justice. God is everywhere.
As you point out, justice is justice. Although, as many others point out (and I agree), greater involvement by the orders (likely women nowadays) and laypersons in the process would be moral behavior on their part
300baud
@burnspbesq:
You’re focusing too narrowly. If there is something they can be charged with, then we should certainly do it. And if there isn’t, then we should make some new laws so that next time the crooks end up penniless and imprisoned. Rather than, like Angelo Mozilo, having to give back a small fraction of the ill-gotten gains without ever admitting wrongdoing. Or, for most of the rest, no penalty whatsoever.
Violet
@AA+ Bonds: Do you believe that non-Catholics are infidels or are you attempting to describe what you think Catholics believe?
scav
I’m beginning to better appreciate the deeply maningful relationships between the words “pie” and “pious”.
Democrat Partisan Asshole
OT: Bllomberg decides the dogpile on Romney looks like fun, slips knife into Romney’s back and endorses climate change in the bargain.
Great week to be a Dem.
Redshift
@KG: Virginia doesn’t have unrestricted early voting (you have to give one of the specific reasons that would also qualify you for an absentee ballot), so if we’re getting more than a third as many early votes as Ohio, that’s actually doing really well.
AA+ Bonds
@Violet:
Catholics realize this and it is infuriating that the press and politicians collude in this confusion. The best cure for this, as far as I have discovered, are Pew Research studies and exit polls.
Shawn in ShowMe
@AA+ Bonds:
If the Catholic church had been destroyed long before the U.S. was founded, those folks in the northeastern United States wouldn’t have been Catholic. Maybe those folks would never been here in the first place because religious tolerance would have been the order of the day in Europe, the Inquisition never happens, the Reformation never happens, the Dark Ages never happens and the religious war with Islam never happens.
Maybe the Moors remained the guiding light of Islam instead of being exterminated by more warlike factions. Maybe the spirit of cooperation that flowered briefly between various peoples under Moorish Spain would have become the gold standard for the continent. American liberalism? I think a world without fundamentalist terrorism, religious wars and an Enlightenment that happens a 1000 years earlier is a better deal. But since liberalism doesn’t belong to any religion, you don’t even have to trade off. You can have both.
LanceThruster
@Joel:
APPRAISE THE LORD! Tax the churches!
geg6
@AA+ Bonds:
And that has to do with Franklin Roosevelt, non-Catholic New Yorker, how?
Brachiator
@geg6:
Sorry, and with all due respect, this is not the freaking point (and I have never been one to say that the entire football program should be abolished, etc).
The plain fact is that Sandusky used his relationship with PSU to get access to victims and to get them to comply. The plain fact is that he committed some of his crimes on PSU facilities.
And the plain fact is that PSU officials, including Paterno, were complicit in protecting Sandusky and giving him room to continue his crimes.
The plain fact is that PSU officials could have stopped Sandusky.
And they chose not to stop him.
AA+ Bonds
I will point out in closing that the end of the rise of American Democratic Party social programs – and with it the end of the growth of American prosperity – coincide with the capture of large sections of labor and Catholic laypersons (with heavy overlap between the two groups) by the Republican Party, following the departure of the American and European secular clergy from Christ’s path during the Vietnam War, as they attempted to defend their (murderous, corrupt) fellows within Southeast Asia.
Focusing on Republican capture of the American South at the same time is a smart way to review the history. But the world is more complex than that.
It is really impossible to imagine Democratic victory in America without Catholics, even today.
Jay in Oregon
An ironic finish would be a bunch of bishops and monsingors taking turns on the ducking stool and in the iron maiden.
I’m sure a few hot pokers will loosen tongues when it comes to finding more of Satan’s minions on Earth.
Eric U.
these comments have veered off of my favorite subject of the moment: Graham Spanier in prison. Now if the University would just stop paying him $700k a year to be on sabbatical, that would be also very satisfying. Seems to me that university presidents getting tenure is a little weird, but in any event there is plenty of reason to remove Spanier’s tenure. Spanier would still be paid $600k after his sabbatical year. They took Sandusky’s retirement, which was his money. Seems like they can cut Spanier, Curley, and Shultz off.
Ken
@geg6: “Yes, but the dead-end PSU fans still cry foul ”
I was quite specific with a subset of PSU fans. I’m sure your ‘99%’ claim is a broad-brush generalization as well.
gene108
@Richard:
From my cursory understanding of history, stranger things have happened to the Catholic Church in its 2000 year history.
Brachiator
@Elizabelle:
RE: Heads were smashed off statues, names were chiselled off tablets. The aim was to pretend they had never existed at all.
I don’t think so. I mean, Does Bush even have a presidential library that could be defaced?
But part of the issue here is that it is not any particular politician. Every GOP presidential candidate since Reagan has consistently pushed the smoke and mirrors of trickle down and its variations.
And so, the true believers keep insisting that this nonsense has never failed or, modern variation, that it is the ever growing legion of moochers, the 47 percent, that holds the nation back, and prevents us from achieving some mystical free market nirvana.
Mandalay
@Democrat Partisan Asshole:
It is more likely that Bloomberg concluded that Romney now has no chance of winning, and/or he wants to max out those federal aid $$$ for NYC. Either way, the sooner he jumps into Obama’s lap and starts purring the better.
It’s business, not personal, but Romney is fast gaining the stench of being a loser.
geg6
@Brachiator:
Um, I think we don’t disagree. But I find it very sad that it had been happening long before he even got to PSU. If he had been stopped back then, he would never have been able to use his connections to PSU to do what he did to numerous others. The guy was a predator for well over 40 years. There are 50 year olds who are not getting any help or justice because no one, not his community in Uniontown, his parents, or the other employees at the community center stopped him back then.
geg6
@AA+ Bonds:
Because all those Catholics in England and Denmark and Australia and Holland are why they have social programs there, don’t you know!
What bullshit.
geg6
@Ken:
Not such a broad brush since I actually have some real knowledge of the situation and people. Like I said, the only person I know still attached to the University who stands up for Paterno is Franco Harris and a few diehards in the alumni association. What you see on tv, for the most part, are not people attached to the University so much as residents of Centre County who, even though they didn’t attend or work at Penn State, have a weird emotional attachment to it.
BD of MN
@Eric U.:
the totebagger radio news today told me he was a tenured professor prior to his promotion to president…
AHH onna Droid
@geg6: aa sincerely yearning for the life in the great hereafter does much to explain his posting history on this blog heretofor.
Brachiator
@geg6:
I find everything about this sad. And I am still willing to bet good money that Sandusky’s wife was complicit in his crimes as well.
The bottom line is that I do not solely blame PSU for their complicity. But I do not let them off them hook. That Sandusky was doing this “long before” is absolutely irrelvant to PSU’s involvement, failure to act, and cover-up.
PSU officials committed crimes in protecting Sandusky. They should also be held accountable.
It is irrelevant, and a waste of time, to talk about Sandusky’s community, his parents or other employees, unless you have some actual knowledge of their complicity. Then, the logical thing to say that some of them might be as complicit as PSU.
However, you can not say, in any way, none, that an earlier failure to act in any way relieves PSU of their responsibility. And to the extent that PSU officials chose to protect Sandusky in order to shield PSU or Paterno, then these are additional, independent crimes.
feebog
@ Burnsesq:
I think there is plenty out there that qualifies as criminal behavior. And I’m speaking as an Arbitrator with FINRA.
aimai
@AA+ Bonds:
Apostate really doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means.
aimai
burnspbesq
@Shawn in ShowMe:
Interesting, but irrelevant. History played out the way it did, and ethnic Catholics were the core of the Democratic Party from the 1870s until the 1980s.
Hunter
“A good finish would be a bunch of bishops and monsignors facing the same charges.”
That should have been the beginning.