The scientists say it will all wash away, but we don’t believe anymore

You know the drill.

Teahadists: Al Gore is fat.

Bobo/Lane/other VSPs: the limits of prediction, numbers can’t tell us everything.

Reality (via):

“Look, the city is extremely vulnerable to damaging storm surges just for its geography, and climate change is increasing that risk,” said Ben Strauss, director of the sea level rise program at the research group Climate Central in Princeton, N.J. “Three of the top 10 highest floods at the Battery since 1900 happened in the last two and a half years. If that’s not a wake-up call to take this seriously, I don’t know what is.”

With an almost eerie foreshadowing, the dangers laid out by scientists as they tried to press public officials for change in recent years describes what happened this week: Subway tunnels filled with water, just as they warned. Tens of thousands of people in Manhattan lost power. The city shut down.

Your contemporary American propaganda state: a right-wing echo chamber and establishment media loudspeaker with the shared aim of marginalizing scientific voices.

184 replies
  1. 1

    No one could have predicted, both sides do it, my dog ate the climate change report, and anyway, I’m sure we can invent our way out of anything bad that happens with technology and environment altering schemes that absolutely couldn’t possibly have even worse consequences, also drill, baby, drill.

    Well played, Mayans. Well played.

  2. 2
    divF says:

    Doug-

    Someday in the next week, I expect a posting title using some part of

    “The first time I drink, I drink whiskey,
    the second time I drink I drink gin.
    The third time I drink I drink anything,
    ’cause I think I’m goin’ to win.”

    Also, people complain about the hamsters at this site getting worn out – I think that is happening over at PEC.

  3. 3
    Yutsano says:

    Having that liberal bastion of sin that is Noo Yahk wash away is a net plus for the wingnuts.

  4. 4

    I blame Andrew Sullivan. He and his HUSBAND move to NYC and what happens? Paging Pat Robertson. Mr Robertson to the white (and very straight!) courtesy phone!

  5. 5
    rlrr says:

    “What have scientists ever done for us?”
    — Fox “News”, the GOP, etc.

  6. 6
    Feudalism Now! says:

    Obama controls the weather and has some sort of Hurricane hypnosis working on Chris Christie. It is plain as day. Occams Razor, Obama is going to use his Weather Dominator to institute Sharia law with the FEMA and the homosexshul agenda and argle in the bargle. Pudding pop! Also, too.

  7. 7

    My mentor likes to say: We are wholly dependent on the earth and its systems. We know little about the interconnectedness of these systems and the effects of our actions. We should proceed accordingly.

  8. 8
    beltane says:

    Bobo should really be ashamed of himself. His childhood home of Peter Cooper village in lower Manhattan suffered serious flooding the likes of which have never been seen in NYC and he still manages to whore himself for the oil companies and Koch Brothers. What a scumbag.

  9. 9
    redshirt says:

    NYC is in big trouble in the years to come unless something big is done, soon. The island is too vulnerable to flooding.

  10. 10
    kdaug says:

    Rumor has it that “Sandy” is short for “Cassandra”.

    I’m green on prescience/pseudo, and am going to fire anyway.

    But showing amber on etymology, so backup would be appreciated.

  11. 11
    rlrr says:

    @Feudalism Now!:

    “And the fact that none of this happened, is proof that he plans to do it!”
    — Fox “News”

  12. 12
    Cargo says:

    Look, we just have to build some larger and more elaborate moai and this whole problem will be solved.

  13. 13
    beltane says:

    They say Fox News is not covering Sandy’s aftermath or Chris Christie at all. It’s just wall-to-wall Benghazi coverage for their viewership of idiotic shut-ins.

  14. 14
    rlrr says:

    @ranchandsyrup:

    Or we could ask Jesus to protect us from the weather demons.

  15. 15
    Eric U. says:

    @Feudalism Now!: Chris Christie: “everything is fine,” under his breath, “except I’m in a FEMA concentration camp with a gun to my head”

  16. 16
    beltane says:

    The pictures of Chris Christie and the president on the tarmac in Atlantic City must be making the wingnuts apoplectic. I await Ann Romney’s observation that the whole state of New Jersey isn’t worth one of Rafalca’s turds.

  17. 17
    GxB says:

    Nah, nah, nah… can’t hear youuu- nah, nah, nah…

    Seriously though, the psychological energy (for lack of a better succinct term) that is being spent just to prop up our cultural delusions just boggles the mind. Regardless of the POTUS, there’s going to be an awful lot of mental breakdowns in the next 4 years.

  18. 18
    lonesomerobot says:

    One thing that climate science believers (myself included) would have been wise to acknowledge was that we were never going to overcome the muddying of the waters by the likes of the AEI, Chamber of Commerce, etc. They not only have the full backing of the fossil fuel industry, they have tools in the media (and by that, I mean both definitions).

    Were we to affect change in a time frame that would have actually mattered, to the extent that actions could have been taken, we should have shifted to a full-throated campaign of changing peoples’ minds based solely on the premises of energy independence, renewable energy jobs, and national security, with such niceties as a clean environment and not having to even have the debate about “global warming” as side benefits.

    I realize that science is actually important to a lot of us, but getting locked into a battle where we have to win by certainty and the other side wins merely by sowing enough doubt was never a good prospect. We really lose by a need to be right in this case.

    Never mind that we are right, of course. I just run into too many people that aren’t seeing the forest (convincing the public that we have to change our energy consuming habits), for the trees (getting bogged down with arguments about the scientific evidence).

  19. 19
    Roger Moore says:

    @beltane:

    Bobo should really be ashamed of himself.

    If Republicans and Villagers had any sense of shame, they wouldn’t be Republicans and Villagers.

  20. 20
    catclub says:

    @kdaug: Alexandra is another possibility.

    I always like that Ted is short for Edward.

  21. 21
    RSA says:

    With an almost eerie foreshadowing, the dangers laid out by scientists… who have devoted years of research to the subject…

    Wow, those scientists must know some serious incantations, that or they’re in league with the Devil. Probably both.

    (It doesn’t help readers to suggest that accurately predicting some future events based on what we know now is “eerie”.)

  22. 22
    trollhattan says:

    If anything is to ever get done WRT curtailing emissions and increasing efficiency to curb our contributions to climate change, it’s going to have to come from the insurance companies. They’re not going to like enduring these increasingly common poundings ($20-60B?!?) and will be looking to the feds to “socialize their losses.”

    I presume their good buds Paul Ryan and Rand Paul will be happy to accommodate them.

  23. 23
    Svensker says:

    @beltane:

    If you look at their website (we, thankfully, don’t get FOX in Canukistan) they have a bit about Sandy on the US page, the World page is 10 stories on Libya and the “coverup”.

    It’s extraordinary.

  24. 24
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @rlrr: You can do it in person soon. He’s coming back a tenth of a degree either side of a 4ºC mean temperature increase.

    Which is why remediation’s a waste of time, and prevention’s a godless Commie plot.

  25. 25
    trollhattan says:

    @beltane:
    “We need to throw out the public education systemstate of New Jersey!”

  26. 26

    @rlrr: Can’t some scientist come up with a machine to control the weather? Wait, I’m doing that wrong.

  27. 27
    catclub says:

    @lonesomerobot: Except, remember when companies went from ‘Xerox is copying’
    to ‘Xerox is documents’?

    The same thing with Exxon. It _could_ have decided to be an energy company, or even an energy efficiency company, and ridden first into the future that will be dictated by expensive oil anyway.
    But no.

  28. 28
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    Bobo/Lane/other VSPs: the limits of prediction, numbers can’t tell us everything

    “Sea Level” is just an average. What is a principled Burkean conservative to do, if these things refuse to sit still even for a moment, so that we may have the leisure in which to contemplate their essential and unchanging nature from the comfort of our plush overstuffed club chairs, while sipping a Scotch? Tosh, it is enough to make a man throw up his hands in despair and say: let the market decide these things!

  29. 29
    mai naem says:

    I just stepped back out of the wingnut brain. The wingnut brain is a dangerous thing. I kept on trying to avoid misfires. Thought I was going to get electrocuted. Anyhow, here’s my report – The Wingnut Brain(WB) looked at Al Gore and noticed that he was still fat. And that now he was divorced. A divorced fat man. Then the WB looked at Chris Christie and noticed that he was also a fat man, in fact, a much fatter man than Al Gore. Then, the WB noticed Chris Christie praising President Obama. With the thought of the President the WB immediately started misfiring. All kinds of electrical malfunction. I almost ran out then but I hung around(FYI the WB is very smelly in a necrotic kind of way) and when the WB saw the picture of Christie and Obama it went ballistic with the misfiring. This is when I ran out. It was too dangerous to stay there.

  30. 30
    catclub says:

    @trollhattan: The insurance companies and the military ( which knows that the pole is opening up).

    As i put it, the time scales are still too long. If you cannot convince someone to floss their teeth, because in the relatively near future, they will appreciate having teeth, how do you expect to tell them to change behaviors that they will not benefit from since it is too far away.
    (A religious cult could.)

  31. 31
    lonesomerobot says:

    @catclub: Are you expecting honorable corporate citizen Exxon to make a responsible choice based on market factors? If so, that sounds almost… libertarian. They rode the oil pony for decades and there was nothing that was going to make them change.

  32. 32
    LanceThruster says:

    Last night on local LA radio KFI640 (John & Ken), same station Rush is on, they were presenting a fasle dichotomy about global warming/Al Gore where they said even if true, there’s nothing we can do about it unless we go back to a pre-industrial lifestyle. We’d just have to adjust.

    I had to turn it off because they were so full of it.

  33. 33
    The Moar You Know says:

    One thing that climate science believers (myself included) would have been wise to acknowledge was that we were never going to overcome the muddying of the waters by the likes of the AEI, Chamber of Commerce, etc. They not only have the full backing of the fossil fuel industry, they have tools in the media (and by that, I mean both definitions).

    @lonesomerobot: A lot of scientists are unable to acknowledge (and this is as it should be) that Truth doesn’t matter to the rubes. The idiot brigade that makes up most of humanity are OK with science so long as it sticks to blowing shit up and machinegunning tribesmen that are sitting on the land you want to build a mall on, but there’s no constituency for throwing away your car keys and walking twenty miles a day to work. There never will be.

    We’ll change all right, when it’s forced on us and not one minute before. And by then it will be too late for most of us.

  34. 34
    GxB says:

    @lonesomerobot: My Psy101 is way beyond rusted, but I recall there’s a defense mechanism kicks in when we are placed in a situation that we have no perceived control. It explains why seat belts were so slow to be adapted and why some people who tend to panic on wild airplane rides would only feel better if they were flying the plane – even though they have no piloting experience.

    Too bad we don’t have the foresight to head off such resistance, but we’re dealing with a solid base of 27% of the population that are going to be dicks about any and all problems we face as a society. Had we taken another approach, they’d just find a different way to stymie progress. Scorpion and the frog (it’s my thing as of late.)

  35. 35

    @RSA: Regardless, they should probably be burned at the stake.

    If they use their demon powers and fly off on a broom, they were a witch.

    If they burn to death horribly in agony, they were good Christian men, God rest their souls.

  36. 36
    handy says:

    @LanceThruster:

    Those two are idiots, to put it mildly. Their whole schtick is, “Will no one think of the endangered white males?”

  37. 37
    schrodinger's cat says:

    Bobo is a vile creature, his pro Romney op-ed yesterday was nauseating, basically he wants the electorate to hand the keys to the GOP, and reward the Republicans for their intransigence.

  38. 38
    Hob says:

    @lonesomerobot:

    … we were never going to overcome the muddying of the waters by the likes of the AEI, Chamber of Commerce, etc. …. Were we to affect change in a time frame that would have actually mattered … we should have shifted to a full-throated campaign of changing peoples’ minds based solely on the premises of energy independence, renewable energy jobs, and national security …

    In which case the AEI, Chamber of Commerce, etc., would have shifted the focus of their water-muddying as well. There’s nothing about the argument you propose that makes it any less vulnerable to a mass media campaign of obfuscation and bullshit.

  39. 39
    R-Jud says:

    @The Ancient Randonneur:

    I blame Andrew Sullivan. He and his HUSBAND move to NYC and what happens? Paging Pat Robertson. Mr Robertson to the white (and very straight!) courtesy phone!

    Actually, my sister noted that Sandy was named as a storm on the day she officially moved to New York. She’s not gay, but she is a pagan.

  40. 40
    lonesomerobot says:

    @The Moar You Know: Well, I’m not blaming the scientists, it is of course their job to prove science. But the rest of us, who believe in science and who value the scientists’ work may have done well to realize that we were going to need a 50.1% strategy (as I outlined above) that had more to do with giving people good “feeling” reasons to change their behavior that were outside the realm of science.

    We know the other side will lie, cheat and steal to win. Our job is to figure out a strategy that defeats them while still hanging on to our principles. Unfortunately, ‘the rubes’ are going to go with the choice they “feel” is right.

  41. 41
    Joel says:

    @lonesomerobot: That’s precisely what the Obama administration has done, and democrats in general. It’s the only way. But it’s probably too little, too late.

  42. 42
    Joel says:

    @lonesomerobot: That’s precisely what the Obama administration has done, and democrats in general. It’s the only way. But it’s probably too little, too late.

  43. 43
    Redshift says:

    @lonesomerobot:

    Were we to affect change in a time frame that would have actually mattered, to the extent that actions could have been taken, we should have shifted to a full-throated campaign of changing peoples’ minds based solely on the premises of energy independence, renewable energy jobs, and national security, with such niceties as a clean environment and not having to even have the debate about “global warming” as side benefits.

    Bullshit. A lot of “reasonable Democrats” a few years ago decided that it would be brilliant to make it about “energy independence” and national security and avoid the whole fight, and what it got us was “drill, baby, drill.”

    Yes, it would have been smart to anticipate the “merchants of doubt” approach, but it’s never a good plan to try to avoid a specific wingnut attack, because the attacks are always BS, not their real goal. If you avoid that one, you just get a different line of BS, not automatic success.

  44. 44
    Palli says:

    Speaking of washing away:
    Guess what all the spent and toxic water from fracking ponds is doing- washing away into the ground water.
    Unintended consequences are usually not unintended, just ignored.

  45. 45
    lonesomerobot says:

    @Hob: You may be right, but here we are, still arguing the science when we know that has basically gotten us nowhere. We’ve actually lost ground – less people believe that climate change is real than they did years ago.

  46. 46
    kerFuFFler says:

    One minute they insist that man is too puny to affect the climate and that only God can control things on such a grand scale. Then they turn around and suggest that Obama caused this hurricane using secret weather-control technology. Seriously, these people should keep their tin foil hats onandparade around in thunder storms till they get the electroshock therapy they so manifestly need.

  47. 47
    Joey Giraud says:

    I’m not sure that, even without oil-industry-funded denial army, that we would have done much to prevent climate change until it was too late.

    Humans have a track record of ignoring problems until we can’t.

    Get ready for a wild ride.

  48. 48
    Roger Moore says:

    @LanceThruster:
    That sounds like a standard step on the Global Warming denialism string of excuses. It goes something like this:

    1) Global warming is a lie made up by evil scientists and environmentalists.

    2) OK, global warming exists, but it’s a result of natural processes, not human actions.

    3) OK, global warming is manmade, but there’s nothing we can do about it.

    4) OK, we could stop burning fossil fuels, but it would be better/cheaper to do mitigation and/or geoengineering instead.

    Sometimes you’ll get an intermediate step where they admit global warming is real, but try to present it as a good thing. The worst part is that the hard-core deniers will always go back to step one the moment your back is turned. You have to fight them each step of the way every time you argue with them.

  49. 49
    KG says:

    @LanceThruster: John and Ken are still on the radio? I’m more shocked by that fact than the report that they were presenting a false dichotomy, because, well, they’ve been doing that for a decade.

  50. 50
    trollhattan says:

    @catclub:
    I suspect the Pentagon also understands the faceoff in Kashmir is at least in part over control of a diminishing water source for, what, a billion plus people? Two nuclear powers who don’t like one another–what could possibly go wrong?

    One might also ask how much longer significant swaths of Bangladesh will remain inhabitable with continuing sea level rise and being hit by more powerful typhoons? Would the resulting diaspora be welcomed with open arms, or just arms?

  51. 51
    danimal says:

    Climate change denialism is about to get bitch-slapped back to oblivion. As much as I despise it, the national press, especially in herd mode, is still a powerful force in our country.

    Sandy is a meteorological 9/11 to these folks, a wake-up call. They are going to be scared and angry. They are smart enough to know the denialists are full of crap, and now it’s gotten personal. Climate change politics have been something of a game for the national press until now; a great way to drum up business as fossil fuel companies attempt to manufacture “energy voters” out of whole cloth. But the game ends when their homes are under water.

  52. 52
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    The ice caps are melting “The Other Side

  53. 53
    JPL says:

    Today both Chuck Todd and David Gregory spoke about weather patterns and/or climate change. They both have a forum and could have used their forums before today. They are disgusting human beings.

  54. 54
    techno says:

    @lonesomerobot:
    I blame Exxon’s (etc.) inability to morph into an energy / energy efficiency company on institutional inertia. This is a company awash in experts in finding, extracting, transporting, refining, and marketing oil. Many of the management people are highly trained experts in their fields (3D underground mapping, petroleum engineers, geologists, etc) many with advanced degrees. To them, alternative energy schemes are just soft-headed schemes of technologically illiterate hippies.

    Until the bureaucracies of the major oil companies are staffed with Ph.D.s in wind turbines or PV design at the same level as their refinery divisions, they will not make a serious commitment to alternatives.

  55. 55
    JPL says:

    Today both Chuck Todd and David Gregory spoke about weather patterns and/or climate change. They both have a forum and could have used their forums before today. They are disgusting human beings.

  56. 56
    techno says:

    @lonesomerobot:
    I blame Exxon’s (etc.) inability to morph into an energy / energy efficiency company on institutional inertia. This is a company awash in experts in finding, extracting, transporting, refining, and marketing oil. Many of the management people are highly trained experts in their fields (3D underground mapping, petroleum engineers, geologists, etc) many with advanced degrees. To them, alternative energy schemes are just soft-headed schemes of technologically illiterate hippies.

    Until the bureaucracies of the major oil companies are staffed with Ph.D.s in wind turbines or PV design at the same level as their refinery divisions, they will not make a serious commitment to alternatives.

  57. 57
    trollhattan says:

    @Roger Moore:
    A persistant theme among the shamelessly aggressive is, “Event ‘X’ is proof it’s getting colder!” I encounter this with appalling frequency.

  58. 58
    lonesomerobot says:

    @Redshift: See my comment above – “less people believe”.

    Let me see, when was “drill baby drill” in vogue? Oh, yea, during the McCain campaign, along with tire pressure gauges. Haven’t really heard either of those lately.

    And besides, all I’m saying is the scientists are doing their work regardless of what you and I would argue about it. But when it comes to someone in the middle – neither in the “drill baby drill” crowd or the science-accepting crowd – appealing to one’s patriotism and a sense of economic progress is generally a good tactic.

    Also I’m trying to have a discussion and would prefer if we’re basically on the same side to not get bombastic.

  59. 59
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    @lonesomerobot:

    We’ve actually lost ground – less people believe that climate change is real than they did years ago.

    That has less to do with the science and how it has been packaged and presented (or not), and much more to do with it becoming a partisan political issue. More people would believe what the scientists are saying if the Democratic party had no position on the issue. You can’t take a policy position (i.e. a call to action which to some degree involves the government) on anything these days without it becoming polarized, and then once that happens the Noise Machine kicks into high gear.

    Remember the Doomsday Machine from Dr. Strangelove, that if triggered would blow up and cover the world in a doomsday shroud that would last for 93 years? That is the perfect metaphor for what our politicized infotainment news complex has become. Any issue which triggers it is smothered in a shroud of Cobalt-Thorium-iGnorance.

  60. 60
    NotMax says:

    Lookin’ forward to peaches from Manitoba and luscious Iowa coconuts.

    /snark

  61. 61
    Meg says:

    @redshirt: @redshirt: This is exactly what I think.

  62. 62
    Scamp Dog says:

    @lonesomerobot: The problem is a good chunk of “the rubes” are Villagers, chosen for their part in the media because they’re not all that smart, or at least willing to put aside their intelligence in service of the conventional wisdom.

  63. 63
    Floppy_Doggie says:

    But Al Gore is fat.

  64. 64
    Roy G. says:

    The last thing we need to do now is politicize this tragedy for political gain. People should depend on their neighbors, not the federal government teat. Also, too, we need to look forward, not back.

    Just think how things might be different now, save for the judicial coup d’etat in 2000.

    Heckuva Job, Brownie!

  65. 65
    beltane says:

    @danimal: The silver lining with Sandy is that it hit the “important people” where they live and so they will no longer regard climate change as an abstraction.

  66. 66
    Redshift says:

    @lonesomerobot:

    Were we to affect change in a time frame that would have actually mattered

    Oh, and the time frame still matters. There may be many effects we could have avoided that we now can’t, but things can certainly get worse.

    There is never going to be a point in this when the appropriate response is that it’s too late and we shouldn’t bother to do anything.

  67. 67
    PurpleGirl says:

    @trollhattan: The private insurance companies don’t pay for storm/flood damage. As they got out of those markets, the Federal government had to step in and create the flood insurance program. Another example of privatize the profits and socialize the losses.

  68. 68
    The Moar You Know says:

    Sandy is a meteorological 9/11 to these folks, a wake-up call.

    @danimal: Not yet. You give them far too much credit.

    But somewhere between the fifth and tenth one in a row, they’ll figure it out.

  69. 69
  70. 70
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    @redshirt:

    NYC is in big trouble in the years to come unless something big is done, soon. The island is too vulnerable to flooding

    It isn’t just NYC. Given that historically speaking waterways, rivers and oceans were vastly superior to anything on land for bulk transport of goods, and as result major trading routes tended to stay close to water, this statement holds for a majority of the world’s major cities.

  71. 71
    trollhattan says:

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
    Same folks who brought us tobacco denialism have their mitts all over climate change. I don’t think it gets any more shameless than that. People fret about Iran when these asshats will be responsible for killing far more than Iran could conceivably touch.

  72. 72
    The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik says:

    Still no power here, but the nearby Target is running. Lot of people, plenty from Hoboken, hooked on the outlets with power strips to charge phones and laptops. Pretty surreal here.

    Hope everyone else is managing.

  73. 73
    lonesomerobot says:

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ: Agreed – when I speak of this issue (bizarrely) I have tended to speak of if it NOT as a democrat. I have been involved with environmental issues since long before I ever aligned with democrats in general – this includes my misguided libertarian period of the early- to mid-90s.

    But your point is well-taken, there is definitely a good deal of the denial that can be chalked up to simple hippie punching. As American as the “liberal media” and apple pie!

  74. 74
    Floppy_Doggie says:

    Al Gore is not thin.

  75. 75
    PeakVT says:

    @lonesomerobot: we should have shifted to a full-throated campaign of changing peoples’ minds based solely on the premises of energy independence, renewable energy jobs, and national security, with such niceties as a clean environment and not having to even have the debate about “global warming” as side benefits.

    The non-AGW arguments have been offered since the 1970s and they have not worked. Hell, I told some of my friends after the first Gulf War that if we didn’t slap a healthy tax on gas, we’d end up fighting a war there again. I was laughed at. How could anyone not connect our dependence on imported oil and a war in a region that offers America nothing but oil? Yet they would not make that incredibly obvious connection.

    Oil = fire = happy caveman brain. Say there’s going to be no more fire and Ogg gets very afraid.

  76. 76
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    @Roy G.:

    People should depend on their neighbors

    You know who else depended on their neighbors? The Donner Party.

    Contra Reagan, the most terrifying words in the English language aren’t “I’m from the government and I’m here to help“, they are “Howdy neighbor, I’m hungry and I’m here to eat!“.

  77. 77
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    But somewhere between the fifth and tenth one in a row, they’ll figure it out.

    You’re much more optimistic than I am. If thermohaline circulation finally becomes buggered up then the same party that denied global warming will be shrieking “No one could have anticipated…!”

  78. 78
    The Moar You Know says:

    I decided to make my regular weekly pilgrimage to Red State. It’s as if the storm never happened. Not one word about it.

    I might add they seem a bit hysterical over there. An edgy quality to the few commentors remaining. They’re still predicting the big win but you can tell they know it’s not going down that way.

  79. 79
    techno says:

    @PeakVT:

    Oil = fire = happy caveman brain. Say there’s going to be no more fire and Ogg gets very afraid.

    Excellent, just excellent! At the bottom of the climate change debate is the realization that humans must do without their very favorite invention—fire.

    Thanks PeakVT

  80. 80
    The Moar You Know says:

    If thermohaline circulation finally becomes buggered up then the same party that denied global warming will be shrieking “No one could have anticipated…!”

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: If that happens most of the world dies. At that point there will be no parties, just strongmen and dead people.

  81. 81
    lonesomerobot says:

    @Redshift: I would never respond that way to “the rubes” but unfortunately I happen to feel it may well be too late, personally. It doesn’t change my desire to try and influence people, but when it came to simple acceptance of the concept of climate change, my hope (belief?) was that there weren’t going to be many here that disagreed.

    And I certainly don’t think that we shouldn’t bother to do anything. My original point was we were fighting the war in a way that we had to be 100% right and the other side only had to be 50.1% right – because they so often use the rhetorical trick of taking any possible instance of inaccuracy and using that as “proof” that your whole argument must be dismissed. But you know, it works with the rubes.

  82. 82
    Redshift says:

    @lonesomerobot:

    Let me see, when was “drill baby drill” in vogue? Oh, yea, during the McCain campaign, along with tire pressure gauges. Haven’t really heard either of those lately.

    Yeah, with Romney it’s “I love coal,” the Keystone XL pipeline, expanding drilling everywhere (while lying about Obama restricting it), all presented as being in the service of energy independence and national security. That’s so different.

    And besides, all I’m saying is the scientists are doing their work regardless of what you and I would argue about it. But when it comes to someone in the middle – neither in the “drill baby drill” crowd or the science-accepting crowd – appealing to one’s patriotism and a sense of economic progress is generally a good tactic.

    It’s fine to speculate as a general tactic, but the fact is that Democrats tried what you’re suggesting, and it didn’t work any better. Your own argument — that fewer people believe — continued to happen at the time they were pushing that tactic the most. (Belief in climate change has actually rebounded since 2010, apparently mostly because changes in the weather have become too obvious for most people to ignore.)

    Appealing to patriotism can be effective; there was a call for an “Apollo Program” national push a while back, and I think that could be effective. Trying to hide the effort behind a more patriotic-seeming issue to avoid a fight is not effective; since “energy independence” doesn’t align fully with the actual goal, it’s vulnerable to being hijacked, leaving you with nothing.

  83. 83
    NotMax says:

    OT:

    Home base locale of U.S. 5th Fleet crosses a legal line.

    Bahrain is facing international censure after announcing a ban on all protest gatherings and threatening to take legal action against opposition groups that organise anti-government demonstrations.
    __
    The order, announced by the interior ministry in Manama on Tuesday, is the most-far reaching attempt to quell unrest in the Gulf kingdom since martial law was imposed last year. It is a blow to the hopes of western countries trying to balance their own strategic and economic interests while encouraging peaceful reform.
    __
    Britain swiftly issued a statement expressing “concern” at what it called an “excessive” blanket ban.  Source

    Will Obama/Clinton downplay/whitewash this or will they put out a demonstrative repudiation?

    I sincerely hope for the latter, for a shift in relations with some teeth in it.

  84. 84
    PeakVT says:

    @techno: What the stupid cavemen don’t understand there’s other energy sources that can be used instead of oil to accomplish the same things. Oh, and some point there won’t be any choice but to use something other than oil.

    You do understand that, don’t you?

  85. 85
    trollhattan says:

    @PurpleGirl:
    That’s not quite the whole story. I live in a flood zone and buy federal flood insurance, but it only covers a portion of the structure’s replacement cost. It doesn’t cover contents, nor wind damage nor leak damage nor any related fire, etc. i.e., it’s more protection for my mortgage holder more than for me (which is also why the lender declares it mandatory for anybody in a 99-year flood zone).

    Were we to be flooded (per the Corps of Engineers we’re more floodprone than New Orleans) my homeowner’s insurance would still have to pony up for contents and all damage not related to floodwaters. And if my house floods, it will be joining tens of thousands of other homes, all of which will cost the industry billions on top of what it will cost the federal program.

    Climatologists have some interesting theories of where the region is headed, with more frequent “atmospheric rivers” slamming into the Sierra Nevada in lieu of the historical snowfall. That will be great.

    http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/atmrivers/

  86. 86
    Roger Moore says:

    @trollhattan:

    A persistant theme among the shamelessly aggressive is, “Event ‘X’ is proof it’s getting colder!”

    Sounds like step 1: global warming isn’t actually happening.

  87. 87
    daverave says:

    @PurpleGirl:

    When I see all of those three story trophy houses on stilts built on nothing more than sand spits along the NJ shore, I get a bit pissed off that we’re going to bail out those 1%ers yet again so they can re-build their doomed house all over again in the same damn spot… on my dime!

  88. 88
    lonesomerobot says:

    @PeakVT: So basically, nothing would have worked. Aside from taxes on gasoline (I’m sure that was a really popular notion), I guess all I’m saying is, turn their strength into a weakness. It’s exactly what they did to us in this debate. Scientific evidence was always supposed to be the best weapon in our arsenal to sway the minds of the public. But we’ve gone backwards wrt public opinion on this matter. What’s the best weapon they’ve got? Those issues that appeal to Ogg: Jobs. National security. Economic security. Fire. OGG HAPPY.

    I’m not here to claim I’m the first person that’s had this thought. I know I’m not. But still, my point is simple – when we have to be 100% right and they only have to be 50.1% right, the odds are against us. We need to be fighting this one on their territory or we lose.

  89. 89
    Anoniminous says:

    @lonesomerobot:

    People don’t make decisions based on rationality. They make decisions from emotionality.

    See: last 20 years of neuroscience investigations

  90. 90
    Schlemizel says:

    @Roger Moore:

    If you are old enough you saw this exact same fighting retreat on cigarettes. They don’t care how many people they kill because they are making very good money & will probably be dead long before the total bill comes due.

  91. 91
    Schlemizel says:

    @Roger Moore:

    If you are old enough you saw this exact same fighting retreat on cigarettes. They don’t care how many people they kill because they are making very good money & will probably be dead long before the total bill comes due.

  92. 92
    elftx says:

    Since I’m always late to the party and don’t want to post to Cole’s earlier thread regarding the “straight talkint” Gov. Christie, here is a link to an article pointing out his bullshit about Atlantic City

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/vid.....y-in-city/

  93. 93
    JPL says:

    @daverave: They will rebuild as long as insurance companies insure their homes.

  94. 94
    Redshift says:

    @lonesomerobot:

    My original point was we were fighting the war in a way that we had to be 100% right and the other side only had to be 50.1% right – because they so often use the rhetorical trick of taking any possible instance of inaccuracy and using that as “proof” that your whole argument must be dismissed. But you know, it works with the rubes.

    The thing is, though, that tactic also comes out of the tobacco wars and creationism, and is completely of a piece with the general denialism. It makes no sense to argue that we have to find a better argument for action, but we just have to accept that we’re stuck with the “doubt” tactic.

    I’d argue that the “100%” argument is the more important one to find a way to combat. I don’t have contact with many people who don’t trust the evidence, but on the rare occasion that I do, I’m inclined to go for the insurance analogy — do you only buy car insurance when you’re 100% sure you’re going to be in an accident?

    But on the other side, I’m rather passionate about any tactic premised on avoiding the main topic, because when I started to get heavily involved in politics (around ’03-’04), we still had a lot of Democrats who believed that if they talked about things just right, Fox and the wingnuts wouldn’t be able to find something to attack them on. It never worked, and it helped build the reputation that Democrats were “weak” because they wouldn’t stand up for what they believed in. We found out that there are people who will support you if you’re willing to fight for what you believe in, even if they don’t entirely agree.

    So you’ll have to forgive me if I react rather strongly to any tactic that feels like that.

  95. 95
    catclub says:

    @daverave: The example of the Mississippi Gulf coast is a taste. Only the people who could rebuild without a mortgage have rebuilt, in general.

    If you need a mortgage, then you need insurance, but insurance is now completely unaffordable, so no insurance, no mortgage, no rebuild.

    Keeps out the riffraff who only prosper on their present income.

  96. 96
    lonesomerobot says:

    @Redshift: Well, my answer to the question “do you believe in global warming (climate change)” is still, “it doesn’t matter if global warming is real,” and it was never an avoidance of the argument, per se. Because the rest of the answer was always, “We need energy independence. We need renewable energy technologies because they will give us new jobs. We need to no longer be relying on foreign sources of energy for the sake of our national security.”

    We aren’t going to rid ourselves of the domestic coal and oil industries in our lifetimes – let’s just be frank about that right now. If we can acknowledge that, we can possibly avoid some hippie punching right off the bat. But we can at least get people thinking about the wisdom of starting to move toward other energy solutions. This argument is too often couched in all-or-nothing terms, and that kind of change pretty much scares the wits out of Ogg, and makes him want to scream, “drill baby drill.”

  97. 97
    catclub says:

    @JPL: see my reply @ 92

  98. 98
    Roger Moore says:

    @lonesomerobot:

    Those issues that appeal to Ogg: Jobs. National security. Economic security. Fire. OGG HAPPY.

    I think you’re missing something that we can’t change. One of the drawbacks of talking about AGW is that we’re basically saying that we’re saying that the current system is broken and will have to be fixed. Meanwhile, deniers can say just the opposite: everything is fine, and we can keep acting the way we are without any trouble. So people who are worried about AGW are inherently selling guilt and change, while deniers are selling comfort and complacency. That’s a big hurdle to overcome, and it’s one that’s essentially baked into the system.

  99. 99
    lonesomerobot says:

    @Anoniminous: Yes, and I said exactly that in one of my later comments here.

  100. 100

    Maynard James Keenan may be onto something:

    Aenima

    Some say the end is near.
    Some say we’ll see Armageddon soon.
    I certainly hope we will.
    I sure could use a vacation from this
    Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
    Freaks

    Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
    The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
    Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
    Learn to swim, I’ll see you down in Arizona bay.

    Fret for your figure and
    Fret for your latte and
    Fret for your lawsuit and
    Fret for your hairpiece and
    Fret for your Prozac and
    Fret for your pilot and
    Fret for your contract and
    Fret for your car.

    It’s a
    Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
    Freaks

    Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
    The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
    Any fucking Time. Any fucking day.
    Learn to swim, I’ll see you down in Arizona bay.

    Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
    Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
    Followed by fault lines that cannot sit still.
    Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits.

    Some say the end is near.
    Some say we’ll see Armageddon soon.
    I certainly hope we will ’cause
    I sure could use a vacation from this

    STUPID shit, silly shit, stupid shit…
    One great big festering neon distraction,
    I’ve a suggestion to keep you all occupied.

    Learn to swim.

    Mom’s gonna fix it all soon.
    Mom’s comin’ round to put it back the way it ought to be.

    Learn to swim.

    Fuck L Ron Hubbard and
    Fuck all his clones.
    Fuck all these gun-toting
    Hip gangster wannabes.

    Learn to swim.

    Fuck retro anything.
    Fuck your tattoos.
    Fuck all you junkies and
    Fuck your short memory.

    Learn to swim.

    Fuck smiley glad-hands,
    With hidden agendas.
    Fuck these dysfunctional,
    Insecure actresses.

    Learn to swim.

    ‘Cause I’m praying for mayhem;
    I’m praying for tidal waves
    I wanna see the ground give way.
    I wanna watch it all go down.
    Mom, please, flush it all away.
    I wanna see it go right in and down.
    I wanna watch it go right in.
    Watch you flush it all away.

    Time to bring it down again.
    Don’t just call me pessimist.
    Try and read between the lines.

    I can’t imagine why you wouldn’t
    Welcome any change, my friend.

    I wanna see it come down.
    Bring it down.
    Suck it down.
    Flush it down.

  101. 101
    Mike Lamb says:

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ: That’s not necessarily true. Many other countries had much more foresight. Some locales require protecting against a 1 in 10,000 year flood event. New York’s 1 in 100 year standard is pathetic compared to a lot of major port cities.

  102. 102
    Anoniminous says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    Recent research is saying lower ranking chimpanzees have been observed to gang up and kill the alpha male if he gets too dominantly aggressive. Once the lower rankers know they will get beat-up, no matter what, it’s worth the risk of serious injury (= almost certain death) to take the bugger out.

  103. 103
    Paul says:

    @Comrade Dread:

    No one could have predicted, both sides do it, my dog ate the climate change report,

    You forgot: “Now is not an appropriate time to talk about this subject” (NRA)…

  104. 104
    lonesomerobot says:

    @Redshift: I’d argue that while the “main topic” to you is the science and effects of climate change, to Ogg it is jobs, national security and energy independence.

  105. 105
    Roy G. says:

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ: LOL, good one!

    Regarding St. Raygun’s bon mot, I think the original is true, but only if the Republican’s are in power, viz Katrina.

    Regarding food, it’s a matter of degrees. If the stereotypical Red Stater is asking for food, they mean double bacon cheeseburgers and fried anything. They don’t consider sprouts and brown rice to be food!

  106. 106
    bemused says:

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ:

    The Donner Party…I’m dying here laughing. Not that there isn’t some truth in that…

  107. 107
    👽 Martin says:

    @NotMax:

    Will Obama/Clinton downplay/whitewash this or will they put out a demonstrative repudiation?
    I sincerely hope for the latter, for a shift in relations with some teeth in it.

    This is a no-win for the President. We desperately need that base right now, and there’s no place else in the gulf to put it. That base is what keeps Iran from shutting down the gulf as we roll a carrier group through there ever time Iran acts up. It also helps the sanctions work as Iran has a much harder time selling oil out of their ports with us peering in their windows all the time.

    And the lockdown in Bahrain is really a lockdown by Saudi Arabia. It was their forces that rolled into Bahrain last year to put down the demonstrations. And again, we need need Saudi Arabia as an ally, as they have long served to keep things relatively in check in the region – both to limit aggression toward Israel and to push against Iran.

    Obama will hold his voice on this one because there are worse outcomes if he should speak against it. President’s job has always been to tolerate bad to prevent worse.

  108. 108
    Shawn in ShowMe says:

    @lonesomerobot:

    When was the last time appeals to American patriotism in the service of non-violent objectives proved successful? Even the space program was a proxy for the Cold War. “Kicking ass” is the default mindset of mainstream culture. The best you could hope for is China making it to the moon so panicked Americans would support an increase in the space science budget.

  109. 109
    Anoniminous says:

    @lonesomerobot:

    So I see.

    (Reading the entire thread before commenting is SUCH a bore! :-)

  110. 110
    Heliopause says:

    Why are you wasting time on this, Doug? You don’t have 60 votes in the senate for meaningful climate legislation, probably not even 50, you never did and you never will. Conservatives and neoliberals will band together and build themselves Freedom Bunkers in the Rockies before they do anything more than symbolic about this.

  111. 111
    trollhattan says:

    @Roger Moore:
    IMHO it’s more pernicious. They’re not simply saying, “it’s not getting warmer,” they’re saying, “we’re headed for the next ‘Little Ice Age’!” It’s a whole added layer of concern trolling beyond the typical “George Soros is going to get rich(er) duping us into building bird-chopping windmills while we’re paying eleventy billion dollars for a gallon of gas!”

  112. 112
    lonesomerobot says:

    @Roger Moore: I’m not missing that, it’s essentially the underlying assumption of my argument. See my comments above – @93 “all-or-nothing” and @101 “main topic”.

  113. 113
    lonesomerobot says:

    @Shawn in ShowMe: True enough, but how about this: We’ll have energy independence while China will smog themselves into oblivion!

  114. 114
    RedCon says:

    BREAKING

    ADP jobs report shows horrible, slow, tepid growth. Portent of tomorrow’s jobs report? Could we see job losses come back? OCTOBER SURPRISE? New focus on economy?

    Only SIX DAYS LEFT until President-Elect Romney!!

  115. 115
    mainmati says:

    @kdaug: It’s short for both Alexandra and Cassandra both Greek names. Sandra means, ironically, “defender of mankind”.

  116. 116
    LanceThruster says:

    Only SIX DAYS LEFT until President-Elect Romney!!

    Which means only SEVEN DAYS until VIOLENT, BLOODY REVOLUTION!

  117. 117
    Bulworth says:

    With an almost eerie foreshadowing, the dangers laid out by scientists as they tried to press public officials for change in recent years describes what happened this week: Subway tunnels filled with water, just as they warned. Tens of thousands of people in Manhattan lost power. The city shut down.

    Why do these scientists hate NYC and Amercia?

  118. 118
    daverave says:

    @catclub:

    That’s probably all true but those houses still require public services such as roads, power, sewer, water and other utilities that are financed by the big pool of taxpayer dollars. All done so that they can have their ego-gratifying 2nd or 3rd vacation retreat somewhere that should never have been built on in the first place. They often require taxpayer financed and environmentally-destructive rip-rap work and gymnastics with beach sand to have even a modicum of protection from storms. So while they may have to pony up all the cash for their house, there are still significant semi-hidden public costs.

  119. 119

    Remember during his RNC acceptance speech back in August how Romney joked:

    “President Obama promised to slow the rise of the oceans and to heal the planet. My promise is to help you and your family.”

    Yeah, you know what, asshole? I think there are a few million people who sorta see these two things as one and the same.

  120. 120
    trollhattan says:

    @RedCon: Sweet Romping Ronny Reagan on a Roomba, another another nym?

  121. 121
    Paul says:

    @Heliopause:

    Why are you wasting time on this, Doug? You don’t have 60 votes in the senate for meaningful climate legislation, probably not even 50, you never did and you never will. Conservatives and neoliberals will band together and build themselves Freedom Bunkers in the Rockies before they do anything more than symbolic about this.

    It is amusing when you think about it. I’m guessing most people in this country are adamant that we are a Christian nation. Yet, they apparently could care less about the planet their God created.

  122. 122
    NotMax says:

    @RedCon

    In the Real World, the jobs report comes out on Friday, not tomorrow.

    Just a friendly pointer to one of several obvious inaccuracies made.

  123. 123

    Portent of tomorrow’s jobs report? Could we see job losses come back? OCTOBER SURPRISE?

    tomorrow is November 1st. So, even if you’re right, it is not an october surprise.

  124. 124
    lonesomerobot says:

    @LanceThruster: Bring on the New, New Black Panthers in post-post-racial America!

  125. 125
    RedCon says:

    SHOCK POLL IN VIRGINIA

    Romney UP BY FIVE.

    Is it over in the Old Dominion for Obambi??

  126. 126
    Tonal Crow says:

    Republicans on global warming:

    There ain’t no global warmin’ cuz Al Gore is fat.
    There ain’t no global warmin’ cuz it’s coolin’.
    It’s warmin’, but cuz we’re getting closer ta th’ sun, you libtard!
    It’s warmin’ cuz the sun’s getting warmer, you libtard!
    Ev’ry planet’s warmin’!
    It’s warmin’ but we ain’t got nothin’ ta do with it!
    It’s warmin’ but it’s all good cuz bananas in North Dakota, you libtard!
    It’s warmin’ but we cain’t do nuthin’ bout it, you libtard, so relax and enjoy it!

  127. 127
    lonesomerobot says:

    @ranchandsyrup: Come on, we know the BLS is in the tank for Obama and is totally going to fix the number at 2.9% unemployment. SEPTANUARY SURPRISE!

  128. 128
    Paul says:

    @RedCon:

    ADP jobs report shows horrible, slow, tepid growth. Portent of tomorrow’s jobs report? Could we see job losses come back? OCTOBER SURPRISE? New focus on economy?

    Jobs report tomorrow? I don’t think so. It always comes out the first Friday of each month.

    By the way, last month people like you claimed that the jobs report was a fraud and that they are all made up by Obama’s boys in Chicago.

    Why would you now believe the jobs report on Friday? Hell, if it is bad people like you will claim it is Obama’s fault. And if it is another good one, people like you will claim Obama committed fraud again.

    What is it like in your alternate reality full of FoxNews/Rush Limbaugh? Does it hurt?

  129. 129
    Shawn in ShowMe says:

    @lonesomerobot:

    jobs, national security and energy independence.

    Jobs you say? “Clean” coal and more oil and gas drilling here at home will produce a bright, secure and prosperous future according to the commercials on my TV. And the pockets of the corporations financing these happy ad spots are seemingly bottomless.

  130. 130
    SatanicPanic says:

    @Paul: God loves him a tragedy of the commons

  131. 131
    beltane says:

    @ranchandsyrup: Learning that November 1st is in October really would be a surprise to everyone but Fox News viewers.

    This troll seems to be born anew ever day. Shouldn’t we be the ones naming it next time? I suggest something short and sweet, say “Desperate Wanker”.

  132. 132

    @lonesomerobot: FUCKING GREGORIAN CALENDAR, HOW DOES IT WORK?!

  133. 133
    trollhattan says:

    @RedCon:
    GOS, just nao.

    Cogito ergo suck it.

    Quinnipiac University, on behalf of CBS and the NY Times, stuck a dagger in Romney’s Ohio hopes by showing President Barack Obama up 50-45, as well as a one-point lead in Florida and two-point lead in Virginia. Marquette University, the best pollster during the Wisconsin recall, now shows Obama winning the state 51-43. Their last poll a couple of weeks ago had it 49-48 Obama. PPP has Obama cruising in Iowa 50-45, and in Wisconsin 51-46.
    __
    This is it, the stretch run, and Romney is losing ground almost everywhere. Let’s look at our handy chart of the battleground state composites, but this time I’m comparing the results to that of 10/19—the Apex of Romney’s numbers in this feature (he had better numbers in a handful of states at other times, but close enough).

    Also, too, did you get your free World Series taco today?

  134. 134
    Roger Moore says:

    @lonesomerobot:
    I’m pretty sure that you’re wrong. Ogg’s main interest is in himself and his lifestyle. “Jobs, national security and energy independence” are far too abstract for most people; they’re worried about their job, their personal security, and the cost of filling up their gas tank. They only care about jobs if they are worried about losing their own or think there’s a shot of getting a better one, about national security if there’s a chance of somebody killing them, about energy independence when gas prices skyrocket. Stirring people out of that self-centered complacency is a huge effort, especially when there’s somebody with a huge advertizing campaign telling them that there’s nothing to worry about.

  135. 135
    Paul says:

    @RedCon:

    SHOCK POLL in OHIO!

    President Obama up by 5!

    http://2012.talkingpointsmemo......?ref=fpblg

  136. 136

    By the way, as governor Romney scored a zero on flood preparation:

    In the spring of 2004, Peabody, Mass., got drenched with rain, which flooded the downtown area. After the storm, then-Gov. Mitt Romney asked President George W. Bush to declare Essex, Middlesex and Suffolk Counties federal disaster areas, according to the Boston Globe.
    That fall, the state legislature proposed spending $5.7 million on a flood prevention project to protect against future floods. Those funds would be matched by $22 million in federal money.
    __
    Romney vetoed it.

    Two years later Lowell MA flooded and Romney refused to spend money to help residents rebuild. Because, running government like a business, yada yada.

  137. 137
    lonesomerobot says:

    @RedCon: Oh goodness those numbers are hilarious, from the link:

    Employing a more stringent screen for likely voters (N=503) increases Romney’s lead to 54 percent to 41 percent and Allen’s lead to 51 percent to 39 percent.

    In other words, “we played with the numbers until they made us wingnuttily delirious! Our poll is teh awesome!!!”

  138. 138
    RedCon says:

    ON CONFERENCE CALL WITH ROMNEY CAMPAIGN

    “driving this election closer and closer to Gov. Romney.”

    “Voters are looking for change…and Gov. Romney is the change candidate.”

    “we are exactly where we want to be. Obama is under 50%”

  139. 139
    Chyron HR says:

    SHOCK POLL in ALABAMA!

    Romney up by 100!

    Why can’t Obambi close the deal with the Sundown Town demographic?

  140. 140

    @beltane: Yeah, I saw further evidence of what you suppose here: http://wonkette.com/488247/wnd.....ionmlk-day

  141. 141
    RedCon says:

    @lonesomerobot:

    UNSKEWED POLLZ amirite?

  142. 142
    Chyron HR says:

    ON CONFERENCE CALL WITH ROMNEY CAMPAIGN

    “Gov. Romney is the Messiah, or ‘White Horse’, foretold in the Mormon prophecies.”

    “Polls showing Obama leading are the work of infidels… who must be butchered.”

    “Put on your tennis shoes, the UFO is arriving soon.”

  143. 143
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    One does not “believe” in science. One accepts that science is the best tool we have to explain the world around us, and its many workings.

    One “believes” in an invisible sky buddy who will smite sluts who are raped with a child.

  144. 144
    lonesomerobot says:

    @Shawn in ShowMe: I do single out renewable energy jobs as a specific source of a new industry that we should be leading as a nation.

  145. 145
    NotMax says:

    Well, how about that?

    The U.S. military shut down a ferry landing at the Navy base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and sent for a bomb disposal team from Florida on Tuesday after Hurricane Sandy churned up a suspicious object in the bay that might be a live, 500-pound bomb.  Source

  146. 146
    NotMax says:

    Well, how about that?

    The U.S. military shut down a ferry landing at the Navy base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and sent for a bomb disposal team from Florida on Tuesday after Hurricane Sandy churned up a suspicious object in the bay that might be a live, 500-pound bomb.  Source

  147. 147

    @lonesomerobot:

    Employing a more stringent screen for likely voters (N=503) increases Romney’s lead to 54 percent to 41 percent and Allen’s lead to 51 percent to 39 percent.

    No doubt they used the white, male landowner screen. As the Founders intended, of course.

  148. 148
    LanceThruster says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    A-fvcking-men!

  149. 149
    Dog is my co-pilot says:

    Governor Chris Christie is fat.

  150. 150
    Paul says:

    @RedCon:

    ON CONFERENCE CALL WITH ROMNEY CAMPAIGN “driving this election closer and closer to Gov. Romney.” “Voters are looking for change…and Gov. Romney is the change candidate.”“we are exactly where we want to be. Obama is under 50%”

    If Romney didn’t have such a track record for lying (jeep anybody), I might have paid attention to your quotes above.

    But as it is, I can’t stop laughing…

  151. 151
    trollhattan says:

    @Dog is my co-pilot:
    Get in mah belly!
    http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2.....armac.html

    He’s easily 2.5 Obama units.

  152. 152
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @RedCon:

    They’ve all drunk the kool aid.

    Time to put them down.

  153. 153
    RedCon says:

    After listening to the conference call, write it down now: Romney wins at least one of MI, PA, and MN.

  154. 154
    Chris says:

    @Shawn in ShowMe:

    When was the last time appeals to American patriotism in the service of non-violent objectives proved successful? Even the space program was a proxy for the Cold War. “Kicking ass” is the default mindset of mainstream culture. The best you could hope for is China making it to the moon so panicked Americans would support an increase in the space science budget.

    “Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.”

  155. 155
    Hill Dweller says:

    The Marquette University poll, which was most accurate during Walker recall, now has Obama up 8 in Wisconsin.

  156. 156
    LanceThruster says:

    @RedCon:

    That, and $7.50, will get you a cup of Starbucks.

  157. 157
    Chyron HR says:

    @Hill Dweller:

    Obama up 8 in Wisconsin.

    Exactly where Romney wants him! Scared yet, libs?

  158. 158
    Hal says:

    Don’t trolls realize they give themselves away when they show up with bullshit ALLCAPSPOSTSABOUTOHMYGODROMNEYISUPBY1000POINTSINOHIO!!!

  159. 159
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    I decided to make my regular weekly pilgrimage to Red State. It’s as if the storm never happened. Not one word about it.

    Same thing at my wingnut blog of choice. They’re really latched onto all sorts of crazy shit about Benghazi, though, and screaming about impeachment.

    Oh, wait, there was one word about the storm: Praising Romney for selflessly ceasing to campaign so that he might help collect and ship much-needed supplies to New Jersey. Yup.

  160. 160
    Ash Can says:

    RedCon translated: “Romney’s hanging his last hopes on a poor employment report on Friday, the only polls favorable to him are the ones whose methodology is laughably ridiculous, and his campaign is reduced to bad street theater and armpit fart noises.

    “It’s six days till the election, people — do you know where your House race is?”

  161. 161
    Nellie says:

    Just as the Mississippi flood of 1927 altered the social and political landscape of America so it will be with Hurricane Sandy. The booke to read is John Barry’s ‘Rising Tide’

    Historians will view this event as the tipping point that shifted the country’s collective consciousness away from climate science denial and toward the hard slog of a ‘green‘ rebuilding, not just the east coast, but our entire national infrastructure.

    Unless the GOP wants to go the way of T-Rex you will also see the resurgence of that rarest of creatures; the moderate Republican.

  162. 162
    LanceThruster says:

    @Bubblegum Tate:

    Oh, wait, there was one word about the storm: Praising Romney for selflessly ceasing to campaign so that he might help collect and ship much-needed supplies to New Jersey. Yup.

    Why do Rmoney’s canned goods hate Manhattan?

  163. 163
    Nellie says:

    Just as the Mississippi flood of 1927 altered the social and political landscape of America so it will be with Hurricane Sandy. The book to read is John Barry’s ‘Rising Tide’

    Historians will view this event as the tipping point that shifted the country’s collective consciousness away from climate science denial and toward the hard slog of a ‘green‘ rebuilding, not just the east coast, but our entire national infrastructure.

    Unless the GOP wants to go the way of T-Rex you will also see the resurgence of that rarest of creatures; the moderate Republican.

  164. 164
    AA+ Bonds says:

    I rarely praise science journalism but: read The World Without Us

  165. 165
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    One does not “believe” in science God. One accepts that science God is the best tool we have to explain the world around us, and its many workings.

    The difference between accepts and believes is really razor thin, and not where you really want to place your argument.

  166. 166
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    FOX News poll shows Romney up 25 points with quadriplegic phrenologists.

    Suck on it, libs!

  167. 167
    trollhattan says:

    @Ash Can:
    Penultimate hopes. After the job numbers disappoint by being good news for jobs, the coda will be GIANTEST AD BUYS EVAH IN FIFTY-SEVEN SWING STATES PLUS CANADA BECAUSE WE HAVE MONEY LEFT OVAH AND BESIDES, WE LIKE MOOSES.

    On election night: bake sale to fund a large buy of sad trombones.

  168. 168
    Paul says:

    @RedCon:

    After listening to the conference call, write it down now: Romney wins at least one of MI, PA, and MN.

    Isn’t he cute? Trusting every little word that’s coming out of Romney’s mouth. I bet Redcon seriously believe Romney over Chrysler as well.

  169. 169
    NotMax says:

    @<a href="http://www.balloon-juice.com/2.....&quot;?Bubblegum Tate

    You mean the $5000 of goods the Romney campaign bought at Wal-Mart?

    Hope someone from some media outlet is tracking the truck, as the Red Cross does not accept donations of canned goods and such.

  170. 170
    Tone In DC says:

    @Feudalism Now!:

    I like it.

    Somewhere, McMegan haz a sad that Christie is evincing some approximation of common sense.

  171. 171
    AA+ Bonds says:

    In my opinion global warming will be denied until severe consequences arrive at which point it will be too late and the world will reorganize based around the new economic, political and social reality

  172. 172
    PeakVT says:

    @lonesomerobot: I’m not saying that nothing would work, just that those are still rational arguments, and they haven’t worked. Like people say, AGW is an issue that is almost perfectly designed not to be understood by large numbers of people (diffuse and uncertain harm, long lead-time before negative effects kick in, complex cause and effect). Less oil = more national security is much less complex and it still hasn’t worked to dramatically reduce oil consumption. Ogg just hears less oil and gets afraid. Of course oil isn’t the only fossil fuel we use; it’s just that there are both rational and irrational reasons for conservation which should have produced action years ago.

    No, I don’t have an easy solution. I keep making all the arguments I can whenever I can. Maybe all of us making the case will be able to prevent the worse case scenario. Or maybe Sandy will be the wake-up call we’ve been hoping for, and we’ll keep climate change to a minimum.

  173. 173
    PeakVT says:

    @lonesomerobot: I’m not saying that nothing would work, just that those are still rational arguments, and they haven’t worked. Like people say, AGW is an issue that is almost perfectly designed not to be understood by large numbers of people (diffuse and uncertain harm, long lead-time before negative effects kick in, complex cause and effect). Less oil = more national security is much less complex and it still hasn’t worked to dramatically reduce oil consumption. Ogg just hears less oil and gets afraid. Of course oil isn’t the only fossil fuel we use; it’s just that there are both rational and irrational reasons for conservation which should have produced action years ago.

    No, I don’t have an easy solution. I keep making all the arguments I can whenever I can. Maybe all of us making the case will be able to prevent the worse case scenario. Or maybe Sandy will be the wake-up call we’ve been hoping for, and we’ll keep climate change to a minimum.

  174. 174
    LanceThruster says:

    @Ash Can:

    his campaign is reduced to bad street theater and armpit fart noises.

    I’d actually vote for that guy!

  175. 175
    Hill Dweller says:

    @Ash Can: The surest sign of the Willard’s demise are the political reporters, who were more than happy to mindlessly parroting his campaign’s bullshit, are now ridiculing him. The twitter machine reaction to Willard’s conference call are gold. Even the half-witted Luke Russert is laughing at them.

  176. 176
    Redshift says:

    @lonesomerobot:

    I’d argue that while the “main topic” to you is the science and effects of climate change, to Ogg it is jobs, national security and energy independence.

    I’m not talking about topics of conversation, I’m talking about that actual problem. You know, the one that’s going to get people killed?

    You’re saying the best way to get action on climate change is not to talk about climate change. I’m saying the evidence of recent years is that doesn’t work, because there are always more self-serving and environmentally disastrous ways to get energy independence and jobs, if you profess not to be concerned about climate change.

  177. 177
    Chris T. says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Well, you do have to believe that things are repeatable. For instance, for science to work, it has to be the case that the effect you’ve observed and written about can be observed again by someone else who experiences the same conditions. Hence, in general, you have to not be a solipsist, and that requires believing in some sort of external reality.

    If you don’t believe in repeatability, of course, you might as well stab yourself with a knife every day, because one of those times you’re not going to hurt and bleed.

  178. 178
    Bill Arnold says:

    @techno:

    At the bottom of the climate change debate is the realization that humans must do without their very favorite invention—fire.

    Hydrogen fires are OK (H20 is not an issue), and they can easily satisfy our evolved-in (:-) pyromaniac impulses.

  179. 179
    The Moar You Know says:

    I rarely praise science journalism but: read The World Without Us

    @AA+ Bonds: Lucked into finding that about a year ago. Cannot agree more. GREAT book.

    My only nitpick: It’s novelized science journalism, which is great (read “Packing For Mars” for another first-rate example of the genre) and informative, but as they are written by journalists, they lack the punch of something written by, oh, Oliver Sacks, who is a for-real scientist who just happens to write a hell of a novel for us non-neurologists on the side.

  180. 180
    Gindy51 says:

    @The Moar You Know: Six Degrees is good too, scary but good.

  181. 181

    @Paul:

    What would anyone expect to hear on a campaign conference call less than a week from the election?

    “Ohio is now toast due to the Jeep thing.”

    “We could go to Wisconsin, but it won’t do any good.”

    “The governor has to go to Florida because our two point lead has turned into a one point deficit in the last three days.”

    “We are going to keep working, but there is no one here anymore, not even his kids, who believes he has a chance of winning.”

  182. 182

    @Nellie:

    I thought that might happen with Katrina, but I was wrong, wrong again.

    Americans, or almost all of them, live in an immersion tank of consumer capitalist culture that convinces them that all their problems can be solved by a purchase and that the rich and powerful are also wise and benevolent. The messages that are counter to this are small, weak, and infrequent. Reality occasional punches through and changes a mind, but it is awfully hard.

    There are a million examples, but I always cite Jamie Oliver’s chicken mcnugget thing with the kids. When they saw the meat, they were disgusted. But when it was covered in crumbs and fried, they were very happy to eat them.

  183. 183
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    OK, mister smartass. How about you take a stab at making the differentiation between blind belief in invisible sky buddies and using science as a tool for understanding reality?

  184. 184
    pejsek says:

    Mekons!

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