The first Sherrod Brown v Josh Mandel debate is tomorrow at noon. I’ll put a post up and try running commentary for anyone who is able to watch in the middle of the day.
I’m not at all concerned about Sherrod Brown knowing “the issues.” I’ve spent enough time listening to Brown speak to constituents here to be confident that he’ll do well there.
In my own case, I have been on several voting rights conference calls with Brown, and it is an absolute pleasure to have a US Senator and passionate voting rights advocate who was once the Ohio Secretary of State. Brown actually knows how voting process works, in the real world. Obviously, looking at the chaos in Florida, Pennsylvania, Texas and South Carolina that is rare even at the state level, let alone from the (relative) remove of the US Senate. I know people here who have had the same good experiences talking with Brown about trade, or rural hospitals, or labor issues. Everyone I’ve ever met who has talked with him on a specific topic has been impressed.
So, the main reason I’ll be watching is because Josh Mandel is a Mitt Romney-level liar. He’s really top-tier in shamelessly repeating flat-out lies. I’m dying to find out how Brown handles that in a debate.
Violet
That seems like an odd time to have the debate. Any reason whey they’re doing it then?
the Conster
If I’ve learned anything from this election cycle, it’s that people like to be lied to. How do you counter that?
Linda Featheringill
@the Conster:
People like to be told what they want to hear.
Eventually, they may realize that what they heard and enjoyed so much was not in fact the truth. Then they become angry.
But more to the point, can you tell a group of people that your opponent is filling their ears with sweet nothings?
jwb
@the Conster: Especially since voters don’t believe that the policies the GOP is advocating are real, which makes it all the easier for the candidates to lie. I don’t know how you counter that.
Kane
Sherrod Brown and his wife Connie Schultz are a dynamic duo. Just listening to them one can tell that they are genuine.
the Conster
@jwb:
That’s just it. They WANT to believe the lies. They NEED to believe the lies in order to vote Republican. It’s fucked up and bullshit.
Violet
@the Conster: Bill Clinton’s fact-filled speech got a lot of buzz. One of the reasons why is that he treated voters like they had a brain. But he also made it very clear and easy to follow. And he called the GOP on their bullshit.
I think a similar tactic might work for the President, although he has to make his responses short and to the point. Pulling the voters into his side with a “They’re lying to you and you’re too smart to fall for that nonsense” style might work.
BGinCHI
I have a total man-crush on Sherrod Brown.
Because of his brain. Get your minds out of the gutter.
eric
Here is my question for the poll wonks and the political historians….when there is a polarized electorate, as there is now, what is the historical percentage of ticket splitting? I find it very hard to believe that there are Romney-Brown voters out there, such that either the presidential poll or the senatorial poll is accurate but not both! Has anyone seen any serious analysis on this? thanks
Jay
I know Mandel did a couple of tours in Iraq, so I don’t want to man him down too much, but my o my, he looks 12, so I can’t take him seriously as a public figure. Grow a beard or something, dude.
BGinCHI
@Jay: Looks like a boy, acts like a boy, has the beliefs of a dickhead.
Violet
@eric: Interesting question. I know I used to vote for both Democrats and Republicans. I live in a very red state and if you don’t vote for Republicans you might not even have another option in some smaller races. But no more. I will not vote for another Republican unless the GOP morphs into something completely removed from what they are today. I don’t see that happening, so my ‘no Republicans’ vote stands.
I don’t see that as a result of polarization necessarily. I see it as a result of the GOP turning utterly batshit crazy.
BGinCHI
@Violet:
Like a treatable fungus?
eric
@Violet: right, that is why all of the presidential polling has me perplexed….while Romney has improved in swing states, the senate races have not really moved. that is odd to my tin ear.
Violet
@Jay: You made me look and oh, holy cow, he looks like he’s president of the college Republicans. One of those total dickweeds you knew in college who spouted Republican talking points, while having enough money to score the good drugs and was well connected enough never to get in trouble for possession.
Went to his website and saw this on his bio:
Grandson. Does that mean his parents had more money and he grew up relatively well off?
PsiFighter37
@Violet: The difference is that Obama spent a good deal of time pitching his thoughts in a UChicago classroom, whereas Clinton was doing it day in and day out as governor of a relatively small state.
To put it in sports terms, campaign-mode Obama is like Miguel Cabrera – the complete package who can put up jaw-dropping numbers – but Clinton is like Ichiro from 2001-2010…the guy who keeps getting on-base and doing things no one thought was possible.
jwb
@Violet: Well, what do you do if your local Democratic country board representative is a bit nutty, has it in for my neighborhood, and the Republican running against this person has been in office before, is reasonable, and is running primarily because the current occupent is a nut case? As a whole, the county board is safely in Democratic hands, and I seriously cannot in good conscience vote for the Democrat in this race, but I’m also not sure whether I can vote for anyone who is GOP.
Violet
@BGinCHI: Ha. No, if they somehow morphed into Blue Dog Democrats, I might consider giving them a look. But that would only happen because the Democrats themselves turned sharply left. Like any of that is going to happen.
kay
@eric:
I’ve ID’ed people who are voting for Brown but not Obama. Right-leaning Democrats. It makes no sense, because Brown is to the Left of Obama, but they’re out there.
I personally don’t think it’s a huge group, ticket-splitters. I actually think the two men compliment each other, in terns of voter groups. I’m hoping Brown will bring up Obama’s numbers in (manufacturing) union households. Our union members are older and whiter and more male, and they strongly support Brown.
Smiling Mortician
@eric: I’m not a political historian, but I suspect if there’s ticket-splitting, it’s more likely to be Romney-Brown voters than Obama-Mandel voters. If you look at polling on Congress, the institution overall has single-digit approval numbers, but people tend to approve of their own congresscritters and senators at a much higher rate. So I could see some knee-jerk republicans voting for Romney but sticking with Brown because they know him and he provides good constituent services.
BGinCHI
@PsiFighter37: This makes Romney the white Chico Escuela.
Violet
@jwb: Abstain from that race. That’s what I’m going to do, anyway. I cannot in good conscience vote for any Republican ever again. Unless, like I said, the party changed into something completely unrecognizable to today’s GOP.
Elizabelle
@Violet:
Does he talk a lot about hands?
gloryb
@Jay: As I understand it, he spent to weeks in a relatively safe position. It’ s something, I guess, but not as much as most who were there. Anyone got more info?
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
Sherrod Brown was such a wonderful Secretary of State. And he’s a star as a Senator. Josh Mandel looks like a creepy frat boy serial rapist to me, and he is as brazen a liar as Mitt Romney. To the point of noting, effectively, “So what? It works, so I’ll keep at it, thanks” when called out on the lies.
None of which is news to Kay. Though she may have a different visual image of Mandel.
Violet
@Elizabelle: Hands? Sorry, I don’t think I follow…
Hill Dweller
Mandel shouldn’t be within 20 point of Brown. The same could be said for the Presidential race, but tribalism is a very powerful motivator.
PsiFighter37
@BGinCHI: Dude / dudette, I am nowhere near old enough to get that reference.
Dare I say that speaks to your age more than mine?
#friendly_oh_snap PF37 +6
Violet
@kay: This doesn’t surprise me at all.
Elizabelle
@Violet:
Thinking on Rick Santorum, who bragged of his blue collar mining grandfather. (Skipped his parents, since they were government employees.)
And gave that creepy speech about hands, including Bella’s little hands ….
Anyway, I am getting tired of these people bragging on blue collar two generations back, and frantically pulling up the ladder that allowed their own parents’ success.
kay
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Ugh. Just horrible. I read he called Brown “unamerican” during an interview while Brown was sitting in the same room.
I think the big challenge for Brown will be not to show blatant, eye-rolling contempt.
PsiFighter37
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Pretty sure if Sherrod Brown was going to get a cabinet position, it’d be Secretary of Labor or head of the CPB (is that officially a Cabinet position? I don’t think so, but I am not sure).
That said, as long as Ohio has a Fox News contributor as governor, I think he can stick around as senior senator from Ohio for a little bit. If I had to complain about anything, it’s that Obama did a number on picking Cabinet members indiscriminately, without considering the political implications for Democrats. Yes, that’s a shamefully political assessment when we should simply be saying “We want the best” when it comes to the Cabinet, but such are the times we live in.
Violet
@Elizabelle: Oh, right, I’d forgotten about that. That was creepy.
Yeah, me too. I feel if you have to go back more than one generation (your parents) to brag on your hard workin’ blue collar roots, you don’t have any blue collar roots.
From Mandel’s website, the complete sentence:
Were these his grandparents? Did they raise him or something? No mention of his parents instilling any principles. Did they do nothing? Or were they rich so he can’t mention them?
Juju
OT, but I am a youngish female with a landline in NC and Gallup is calling at 5:30 pm to poll me. I was polled by Elon, I think, yesterday. This might be interesting.
Lojasmo
@PsiFighter37:
You can really hold your ale, dude.
MikeJ
@Juju: That sounded like the start of Penthouse Letters.
BGinCHI
@PsiFighter37: Too young to use the Google, eh?
Yet old enough to drink.
You are a paradox, sir.
the Conster
@MikeJ:
Fixed for your imagination.
BGinCHI
@Juju: I’m holding back on the snark here. Have you been to this blog before? It’s got a full-service wit component.
Mnemosyne
@jwb:
IMO, the only time it’s reasonable to vote third party is when you want the Republican to win but can’t bring yourself to directly vote for him/her. So if there are any third party candidates on that ballot, that may be the way to go.
Yutsano
@the Conster: Penthouse Letters Mad Libs? Now that’s a mash-up I could get behind!
MikeJ
@BGinCHI:
At least half of one.
Redshift
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Speaking of which, we happened to have the TV on when they were showing Obama’s weekly address today, and the GOP response was from some Oklahoma dude named “Markwayne Mullin.” Ms. Redshift immediately speculated that he was a serial killer, since they often have the middle name “Wayne,” but I pointed out that it apparently wasn’t his middle name. We agreed he must be trying to hide the fact that he’s a serial killer by merging his first and middle names into the implausible “Markwayne.”
Just another afternoon of goofy political TV commentary from the Redshift household.
Juju
@BGinCHI: I don’t think in terms of Penthouse letters. It’s not something that intrudes on my thought processes. BTW, ick.
jwb
@Mnemosyne: The only third party on the ballot is a totally crazy ass Libertarian. Current nut case would be better than him. So in this race it’s basically don’t vote or vote for the Republican who is ok or vote for the horrible Democrat. I don’t like the choice. Otherwise it’s a straight ticket for me.
the Conster
@Yutsano:
Rule 34 for Gallup polling.
arguingwithsignposts
@Yutsano: Every one will start with, “I never thought this would happen to me …”
arguingwithsignposts
Also, I don’t mean to be a lookist, but that Mandel guy, sheesh.
Yutsano
@the Conster: It would definitely make polling a helluva lot more entertaining.
@arguingwithsignposts: Go on… :)
BGinCHI
@Juju: Um, you can blame Mike. His idea, not mine.
My mind, like yours, is completely pure and unsullied by things gotten up to by our Seattle contingent.
See Yutsano, pervy perverson.
BGinCHI
As for when one might vote for a GOP over a Dem.
Exhibit A:
Rahm Emanuel.
I also voted against Blago, but it was the Green Party or the Free Love party or something.
gwangung
Hey! I resemble that remark!
Juju
@arguingwithsignposts: He gives off a really creepy vibe. There isn’t enough candy in the world to entice me to get in a car with him.
Mnemosyne
@Violet:
I’m still trying to parse this sentence:
So his grandmother is an Army Air Corps veteran? She sounds way more interesting than he does. And IIRC, she should be referred to as a Women’s Army Air Corps veteran unless she served past 1978 when the gender-segregated forces were merged.
BGinCHI
@gwangung: If the waterproof boot fits…..
jwb
@BGinCHI: First thing you want to try to do, however, is find and support a good primary challenger. We tried that in the county race I mentioned above, but incumbency is a powerful force.
BGinCHI
@Mnemosyne: Maybe he had two granddaddies?
Maybe he’s from Yellow Springs….(caution: liberal OH joke)
Mnemosyne
@jwb:
I have sometimes decided to skip that ballot line entirely and not vote for any candidate on it, which again I think is a reasonable choice when you want the Republican to win but don’t feel comfortable actually voting for him/her.
ETA: This is one of those times when I wish all states have the option I’ve heard they give you in Nevada, which is “None of the Above.” At least that way you can make it clear that you didn’t accidentally miss the ballot line, you deliberately chose not to vote for any of the candidates on offer.
gogol's wife
The only Republican I’ve ever voted for was Lowell Weicker, and I did it many times and with great pleasure.
BGinCHI
@jwb: In the Chi mayoral race, the Dem primary pretty much is the election. So oddly you don’t really get that early chance until folks start announcing they are running.
States with party machines tend to have shittier candidates. Look at some of our congress critters who are Dems. Governors in jail. Mayor tanking. The state party really needs to change.
Yutsano
@BGinCHI: It’s all about the bumbershoots man…
@Mnemosyne: I personally love that option. At this point I’d take it for the WA governour’s race. Inslee is uninspiring and McKenna is a fucking two-faced liar. Or the Republican, which these days is the same thing.
gwangung
@BGinCHI: IT’s not the boots that are waterproof….
Spaghetti Lee
Sherrod Brown is a mensch. One of me favorite senators. I think he’ll beat the twerp and win big. I love how the GOP has blown so much cash trying to bring him down. An actual liberal populist scares the shit out of them!
Jebediah
@Redshift:
And they’ve got the nards to talk shit about inventive/unique African-American names.
PsiFighter37
@BGinCHI: Actually, I used Google to verify that I was too young to understand the reference you made.
Using the tools of the future to understand the culture of the past. Deep.
PF37 +8 and counting. On another note, I have found some ROCKING tunes for my next party playlist while watching f00tball. A very productive afternoon indeed.
PsiFighter37
@Lojasmo: Only because I’ve been practicing (at times inadvertently) the past several months. A lot of background to this story, but it’s well worth it. Nothing like a good ale with a decent ABV.
Todd
@MikeJ:
“I always thought your letters were fake, and that it would never happen to me, and never thought I could get interested in watching men do things to other men…I woke up 72 hours later, and both of them were gone. The only things that Reince left behind was the duck, the crowbar, and a guest pass to the RNC HQ.”
Elizabelle
Here’s the Cleveland Plain Dealer endorsement of Sherrod Brown.
Whom they did not endorse in 2006 (they went with Mike DeWine). CPD on Brown’s accomplishments:
CPD takes Mandel to task for rigid ideology and allowing a scorched earth campaign on his behalf by SuperPACs.
Last paragraph:
BGinCHI
@PsiFighter37: Have you tried Ska brewery’s mole stout? Comes in 12 oz cans.
Delish.
Elizabelle
PS: I am not from Ohio.
How do Ohioans shorthand the Cleveland Plain Dealer?
I’m familiar with The Washington Post (sometimes shortened to “WaPost”) and the Richmond Times Dispatch (the “Times Disgrace”).
PsiFighter37
@BGinCHI: I am prejudiced against beer in cans nowadays, mainly because of my college days when I drank some pretty foul beers out of them aluminum cylinders. But if I see it, I’ll keep an eye. Not usually a stout guy, but some (like Avery’s coffee stout) catch my tongue.
Anyways, back on topic. It seems like Mandel has taken every opportunity he has had to shoot himself in the face this campaign. I have no idea how young he looks, but if he really does give off the aura of not having hit puberty yet, that’s bad.
Citizen Alan
@kay:
Hmmmm, I wonder what it could possibly be that could account for this strange phenomenon. Perhaps they don’t like they way Obama parts his hair or something.
Spaghetti Lee
@Elizabelle:
Actually, the proper shorthand for the Washington Post is the WaPoo or WaPoop. And an editorial is a WaPoOped.
BGinCHI
@PsiFighter37: Cans are the new bottles. Many craft brewers, and some of the very best, going back to cans.
Give them a look next time you’re at a good beer store.
I like Avery too.
You live in the west?
PsiFighter37
@Citizen Alan: I’m relatively young, but I wonder if this kind of phenomenon will ever disappear from American politics. I’m becoming increasingly skeptical that it will be gone before I leave this earth…and I’m in my 20s.
PsiFighter37
@BGinCHI: Nope, I am a Manhattanite in the worst sense of the word. But, lucky for me, NYC (being the capital of teh_AWESOME) has allowed me to experience a lot of brews without traveling too much. For example: I had Green Flash Imperial IPA this afternoon, ON DRAFT. Would not expect that (it was a rarity, even in SoCal). And I’m drinking some Yellow Snow IPA, which hails from Oregon.
In truth, I have Whole Foods to thank a bunch – they do a really good job of diversifying the beer selection beyond the regional craft brews in the Northeast. Where else would I find something like Saison du Buff (a joint brew between Victory, Dogfish Head, and Stone) that incorporates herbs I’d usually use in some of my best cooking dishes?
In conclusion to the meandering above-ness, I love beer.
BGinCHI
@PsiFighter37: Cities just kill it in terms of selection. Period.
Same here in terms of just amazing choices (from the US and Europe). I can’t believe how much good beer there is to drink. This country feels so strange when we get things like beer, wine, and food (and a bunch of cultural things) so right but have such a huge population of fucking idiots who support an entire political party of crooks and thieves.
History will probably find us fascinating.
Elizabelle
@Spaghetti Lee:
Hadn’t heard WaPoo, but it’s deserved too often.
Conservatives call it ComPost, I originally thought because of its gardening possibilities and mulchlike thinking, but have realized it’s probably Com as in Comintern.
Kathleen
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): My image is the “Not Toby HR Guy From The Office”. I think his name was Gabe. Gabe had lots of issues.
Kathleen
@kay: One of the American Crossroads ads is now accusing Brown of not paying his taxes and voting himself a big pay hike.
kay
@Kathleen:
I feel as if people are immune. I talked to senior citizens at the county fair and the senior center and they have reached the point where they don’t believe any of it. A lot of hand-waving and disgust.
I love Brown’s line on the secret billionaire bucks: “who are these people? Why are they in this state? What do they want?”
What do they WANT? I love that.
Yutsano
@kay:
To own it all. And more importantly to keep it all.
debbie
@ kay:
That’s exactly what Brown should ask Mandel tomorrow: “Who exactly is your puppetmaster?”
Napoleon
@Violet:
Likely, but better yet he married into one of the richest families in the Cleveland area (for you in NYC, the Ratners, who are also one of the richest in NYC).
PsiFighter37
@BGinCHI: I think cultural things is a matter of interpretation. When the only advertising for beer on teevee you see are those idiotic commercials about Budweiser and Coors Light…yeah, I have a low opinion of the beer in this country.
Mnemosyne
@BGinCHI:
Our local microbrewery (and I mean really local, like 3 miles from our apartment) does only cans, no bottles. A lot of brewers are starting to feel that the light that even dark brown bottles let in is too harmful to the brew, and cans protect it better.
Napoleon
@Elizabelle:
First, a few years ago it dropped Cleveland from its name. But people call it the PD.
Roger Moore
@PsiFighter37:
I think that’s a bit of an unfair comparison. Bud and Coors can afford to advertise a lot, and really have to, because they’re targeting the mass market. Meanwhile, they have to make the blandest, least offensive stuff possible in order to reach the mass market. But that’s true of just about every country where they brew beer; the biggest sellers are boring, relatively flavorless pisswater. It’s just that there’s not much point in importing somebody else’s swill when the local brewer can sell you about the same stuff and save on shipping. So we only import beer from other countries if it’s actually worth importing, and we wind up comparing the mass market local stuff to the niche market foreign beer. If you compare the best American beer to the best stuff from anywhere else in the world, it holds up pretty damn well.
ETA: And OT, but FTMFYWAVRPF. Tigers up 2 games to 0!
Egypt Steve
I’m backing Howie Mandel.
liberal
@Yutsano:
–Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations
olevia
@Violet: The City Club of Cleveland, an venerable institution hereabouts, hosts all its events at noon. They style themselves (and are) a “citadel of free speech”.