Early Morning Open Thread: The Veep Debate

A parable, or something: The Doberman is a designer dog, bred by a Swiss-German tax collector (who was also the local dog catcher) who wanted a streamlined, swift personal-protection animal that would look more intimidating than the farm dogs and cattle herders of its ancestry.

The Bull Terrier is a fun, comical, people-loving… clownish” dog that looks like a cartoon pig or a whimsical ottoman. Advertisers use them to sell mass-market beer and midrange chain department stores. This is not the sort of business the breed was developed for, or from.

Anybody assuming that a one-on-one dogfight between a sleek young Doberman and a stubby old Bull Terrier would be an automatic rout is liable to end up carrying their Dobie home in a basket.

Mr. Charles P. Pierce (may he flourish for a thousand years!), before the VP debate:

… Joe Biden is not riven with self-doubt. Joe Biden is not exhausted by the hurly-burly of politics. Joe Biden is not burdened by the weight of events and laid low by the constant battle against know-nothing obstructionism. Joe Biden is not going to take the stage tonight and find himself wishing he were anywhere else. I mean, god be good to him, as my gran’ used to say, but Joe Biden actually likes all these silly performance pieces in which we insist he be engaged in order to stay vice-president. He revels in them. He would do ten of them a day, if he could. When I consider Joe Biden, and I look at the enthusiasm with which he throws himself into the various cataracts and torrents of hogwash that constitute our politics these days, I find myself looking at him the way I look at people who sky-dive or drive in demolition derbies. I have no idea why they do what they do, and I have absolutely no intention of doing it myself, ever, but, goddamn, do those people look like they’re having fun….

Joe Biden is not afraid of needles, and Joe Biden wants to stay vice-president for awhile. I’ll never understand that, but people take their fun where they can find it and needling Paul Ryan can be rare good craic. I do not think Joe Biden will be so overwhelmed by the gravity of the occasion that he denies himself that kind of fun.

And the prescient Mr. Pierce’s post-debate review is even more fun, so you should go read the whole thing.

Dave Weigel, at Slate:

Whether or not this Biden performance helps Obama, you could sell bootleg DVDs of it to Dems for $20.

Paul Constant, at Seattle’s Stranger:

Republicans love to mock Joe Biden for being an idiot. Hell, even most Democrats wouldn’t put Biden in the top twenty intellects of the party. Paul Ryan, though, is admired by many Republican politicians as the brains of the Republican Party. Mitt Romney chose to elevate Ryan to the VP slot because Romney needed a serious Republican thinker to codify his weak control over the base. Republicans think of Ryan (and Ryan likes to think of himself) as the serious numbers guy, the guy who comes up with the plans that other Republicans follow. He’s generally considered to be the smartest Republican in a national office today.

And Joe Biden creamed Paul Ryan. He laughed in Ryan’s face and left him speechless. He shook Ryan’s ideas until they fell apart like the crepe paper and chicken wire that they truly are. (It’s important to note that Martha Raddatz’s fine moderation held Ryan to the truth, too. Republicans are surely going to target Raddatz in the next few days, as they do all “uppity” women, but Raddatz should be proud of the fact that she reminded America what a great debate moderator is supposed to do.) Biden clearly stated his beliefs as a Democrat. He argued that America cares about Americans, and he fact-checked Ryan at every turn. (I was particularly moved by Biden’s personal opposition as a Catholic to abortion, but his commitment to the fact that, as an elected official, it’s not his job to impose his will on the American people.) Biden out-argued, out-spoke, and out-thought the smartest man the Republicans have to offer, and he did so armed with the courage of his convictions.

Also, not directly debate-related, but Doghouse Riley looks at the Now Notorious Time Photo and makes fun of Ryan’s workout routine.

87 replies
  1. 1
    Patricia Kayden says:

    From reading all the comments (including Sullivan’s) and watching MSNBC post-debate, seems like Biden did an excellent job against Lyin Ryan.

    At the very least, Biden’s aggressive performance should stop the whining about President Obama’s lackluster performance last week.

  2. 2
    Valdivia says:

    I was walking (read getting lost) in the middle of a highway in Shanghai trying to read on my cell phone the TPM and Sully threads. A couple of friends kept emailing me updates. Unfortunately without a VPN on my phone I couldn’t follow the format here, but now home I did and it was great.

    Love Joe. Always have. Must say though that I hate that Pierce, had to include that passive aggressive insinuation of Obama thinking himself to good to be in a debate.

  3. 3
    LGRooney says:

    WaPo, Front page, by Dan Balz & Philip Rucker, 3rd paragraph:

    The other contrast with the presidential debate was the absence of a clear winner.

    I will cancel my subscription today.

  4. 4
    freelancer says:


    Do watch the whole thing now that you’re home. It’s a stunner.


  5. 5
    Valdivia says:


    thanks for the link. I will. Probably tomorrow as I am leaving for dinner soon. hard to get used to this 12 hour difference! :)

  6. 6
    WereBear says:

    Joe did not disappoint.

    Which is why we got the Cup of Joe mug with our Obama/Biden donation.

    Which they seem to be sold out of!

  7. 7
    weaselone says:

    Media is essentially recycling their commentary on Romney’s debate performance for Biden and inserting a different conclusion.

    I also get the distinct impression that Andy Hiller didn’t actually watch the debate. His commentary was basically a rehash of general media talking points, some exceedingly stale. Biden was rude because he smiled and interrupted. Ryan apparently proved himself to be a wonk courtesy of his understanding the budget “inside and out”. Nobody who actually watched the debate would come to that 2nd conclusion. Ryan was exceedingly lacking in specifics regarding the budget.

  8. 8
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @LGRooney: You can cancel, but wouldn’t it be more effective to write a letter to the editor?
    I subscribe to Washington Post too and contacted the Ombudsman when Romney tried to get a story changed. Was surprised that the Ombudsman actually responded to my questions.

    I’m sure the Washington Post is going to be deluged with letters disagreeing with their assessment that the VP debate was a draw. I’m curious what Biden would have had to do to be declared a winner by them.

  9. 9
    Rita R. says:

    Mark Halperin may have just said the stupidest thing he ever has, and believe me, I know that bar is high. He’s on dysfunctional, sycophantic Morning Joe, and said that they should scrap the final debate’s planned topic of foreign policy, because we’ve talked about that enough, and that the entire third debate should be all about the fiscal cliff, the deficit and the nation’s finances. Pinnacle of village bullshit.

    ETA — Five years later, and Mika is still mostly useless. Though I did notice she’s dyeing her hair more of a white blonde now. She knows what’s important.

  10. 10
    amk says:

    Sorry AL – That’s some pure bs from pierce. The guy has to decide what he wants in his pol – the aggressive Biden who ‘throws himself into the various cataracts and torrents of hogwash that constitute our politics’ or the non-aggressive wonky Obama. This supercilious attitude with poorly hidden contempt for politicians is very irritating.

    May be pierce should run for office (any office) and see how many votes he gets with his ‘charm’.

  11. 11
    Baud says:

    @Rita R.:

    that the entire third debate should be all about the fiscal cliff, the deficit and the nation’s finances.

    Can’t help but notice that for the first time social issues have not been part of the debates at all, except for the abortion question at the end of last night’s debate.

    Proof positive that social issues are good for Democrats this year.

  12. 12
    Randy P says:

    Also, not directly debate-related, but Doghouse Riley looks at the Now Notorious Time Photo and makes fun of Ryan’s workout routine.

    For some reason one of my favorite events to watch at the Olympics this year on the end-to-end streams was weightlifting in the low weight classes, i.e. 65 kg guys lifting 200 kg or whatever they got up to.

    The legs on those little guys were as big around as my body. Ryan, not so much. His legs look like my arms. And I have zero upper-body strength.

  13. 13
    Rita R. says:


    Someone wrote in the debate thread last night that even though Martha Raddatz was a good moderator, her questions all basically had a center-right frame. That is so true, and I thought as much of the debate last week too. I mean, Lehrer asked about role of government and governing, as two separate topics, and nothing about education, no immigration, nothing about the big blowup over birth control earlier this year, little on energy policy, etc. Not that it excuses Obama’s lackluster performance, but the deck kind of started out slanted against him.

  14. 14
    Sparrowgal says:

    One of my favorite comments so far regarding Ryan’s seemingly unquenchable, nervous thirst comes from one of the commentors on the Maddow Blog:

    My 91 year old mother noted how much water Ryan was drinking. {Mom is a WWII veteran Navy nurse.}
    She said, “My goodness, that young man appears to be water-boarding himself. I’ll bet he’s in a hurry to get to a restroom when he gets off the stage.”


  15. 15
    mikefromArlington says:

    Fox and Friends said Ryan seems to have gotten a slight edge which means the Dems are in great shape.

  16. 16
    Baud says:

    @Rita R.:

    The first debate was in many ways a perfect storm: Romney outperformed, Obama underperformed, Lehrer was a weak moderator, and his choice of topics and questions came out of a Romney campaign wish list.

  17. 17
    jeremy says:

    And still.nothing about climate….

  18. 18
    Micheline says:

    @Baud: Exactly.

  19. 19
    Karmus says:


    As you quoted:

    My 91 year old mother noted how much water Ryan was drinking. {Mom is a WWII veteran Navy nurse.}
    She said, “My goodness, that young man appears to be water-boarding himself. I’ll bet he’s in a hurry to get to a restroom when he gets off the stage.”

    That is so righteous. God bless that woman.

  20. 20

    Charlie’s post-debate review closes thus:

    You know what’s the difference between Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan?



  21. 21
    rikyrah says:

    Saw snippets and Joe Biden did a great job.

    It’s not Biden’s fault that the VIllage insists that Paul Ryan was some sort of ‘serious’ person. he was always a lying clown.

  22. 22
    Rita R. says:


    Plus the media were just dying to write the Romney comeback story, and Obama teed it right up for them.

  23. 23
    WereBear says:

    Ack, my Facebook feed is full of “how dare Joe Biden laugh at our precious Paul Boy.”

    Not one word about what Ryan said. Because that can’t be defended, I suppose. Just whining about rudeness and tone.

    Must. Not. Engage.

  24. 24
  25. 25
    Chinn Romney says:

    I’m depressed. Three radio stations on the way in called it a draw. I may have to reprogram the damn thing. In what alternate universe was that a draw? I want to send Joe in against Mitt. I hope Obama was watching how it’s done.

  26. 26
    Randy P says:

    @Rita R.: Will be interesting to see if we get questions on issues of concern to voters from actual voters.

    Are town-hall format questions pre-screened?

  27. 27
    kd bart says:

    Although Biden won the debate, I can guarantee that the meme by the end of the day from the MSM will be how rude Joe Biden was. That is how the MSM works.

  28. 28
    Joel says:

    @Sparrowgal: As someone who has given a number of public speaking appearances (and never liked a single goddamn one of them), the water drinking means that the guy is really, really, nervous. Surprised he didn’t take a beta-blocker.

    Obviously, Romney doesn’t suffer from these issues so we won’t be seeing a repeat with Obama next week, but we won’t be seeing a repeat of last week, either.

  29. 29

    @kd bart:
    The MSM’s meme was that Sarah Palin was a lovable game-changer, a brilliant pick who would bring in the women’s vote. Their opinion counts for bupkis.

  30. 30
    Rita R. says:

    Tom f-ing Brokaw just now was talking about Americans having to get used to the idea that they have to give things back. They have to “dial down their sense of entitlement.” This is infuriating. Has he been paying attention to what’s happened to Americans over the last few years? Maybe he needs to have that discussion about giving back things and dialing back a sense of entitlement with the rich assholes in his circle. I wonder if he wants his beloved Greatest Generation to give back their VA health benefits, or their social security? What kind of sense of entitlement do those people have? The Beltway media are as much of the problem as the Republicans.

  31. 31
  32. 32
    Kane says:

    @Rita R.: In the 2004 vice presidential debate, moderator Gwen Ifill asked a total of 20 questions of Dick Cheney and John Edwards. Nine of which were deemed as foreign policy, 11 domestic policy. Take note that one foreign policy question was, would it be a dangerous thing to have John Kerry as president, and another was asked whether the Kerry/Edwards plan to internationalize the effort in Iraq seemed kind of naive. Also three of the domestic policy questions were directly about John Edwards (Being a trial lawyer is Edwards part of the problem, as a trail lawyer do you feel personally attacked, and what qualifies you to be a heartbeat away). Another question was about flip-flopping.

  33. 33
    Rita R. says:

    @Randy P:

    I believe the audience members submit questions, and the moderator — who I think is Candy Crowley — picks the ones she wants and the person who submitted it actually asks it of the candidate.

  34. 34
    Elias says:

    Karl Rove’s instant reaction was to shoot the moderator and everybody is declaring this a draw?

    When your side’s first reaction is to blame the refs it’s a sure thing that you believe you got stomped. Doesn’t matter if your message discipline is as good as Baghdad Bob’s.

  35. 35
    IowaOldLady says:

    I’ll bet whoever played Biden in debate prep did not do what the VP did last night. Time and again, Republicans drink their own cool-aid and wind up flummoxed when reality bites.

  36. 36
    Rita R. says:


    The Republicans’ decades-long campaign to work the refs has been effective.

  37. 37
    Kane says:


    And still.nothing about climate….

    I noticed that as well. It’s rather embarrassing how the media goes so out of their way to avoid bringing up the issue.

  38. 38
    MikeJ says:

    Biden meets Ryan before the debate.

  39. 39
    bemused says:

    I want to reach through the tv and throttle Joe, Mike and freakin’ Brokaw.

    Mika to Chris Van Hollen on raising age to 67, why can’t you just say yes.

    Clearly, it’s all on the middle class to sacrifice again and again.

    They hear the words Social Security and they lose their shit.

  40. 40
    debbie says:

    Rita R:

    Tom f-ing Brokaw just now was talking about Americans having to get used to the idea that they have to give things back.

    I believe he was referring to post-WWII when people paid tax rates of up to 50% because it was widely accepted that we needed to pay off the war debt.

  41. 41
    bemused says:


    Just hilarious. Thanks!

  42. 42
    Rita R. says:


    No, he was talking about cutting “entitlements,” Medicare and Social Security, chiefly. And he didn’t say it once, he kept harping on it. Painting Americans as spoiled, lazy people who’ve had it real good with all this stuff from the government we feel entitled to, living high off the hog, and now it’s time to pay the Piper and “give things back” and “dial down their sense of entitlement.”

    Nothing I love more than some out-of-touch rich fool lecturing the middle and working class about how good they have it and they need to sacrifice some more, especially as we’re still slowly recovering from the worst recession since the Great Depression.

  43. 43
    kay says:

    @Rita R.:

    You know what I love about it? These same over-paid coddled clowns tell us once a day that the 1% need certainty and ‘confidence’ yet every day they threaten to take Social Security and Medicare away from tens of millions of people.
    Do we, the vast majority, not need ‘confidence’?
    What is the point of this constant threat? We’re not WORKING hard enough for the multi-millionaire pundit class? Is that it?

  44. 44
    bemused says:


    What is even worse is the anger, resentment and bitterness that you can hear seeping out in their voices.

  45. 45
    Rita R. says:


    Well, the 1 percent are much more important than us, don’t you know? Their feelings and worries and sense of confidence about how many millions will be in their stock portfolio is far more crucial than us being able to afford health insurance or not live in poverty in our old age.

    Meanwhile, I’m sure, SURE, that Brokaw has a nice fat NBC pension for the rest of his life, including health coverage. And I don’t think he turns down his social security or medicare either.

  46. 46
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    @LGRooney: We dropped ours during the W years and haven’t missed it. You’ll enjoy the stress reduction and the smaller weekly recycling pile!

    Dunno where you are, but there are several good local papers in the VA suburbs e.g. http://www.connectionnewspapers.com and http://www.patch.com so you don’t have to feel like you’re missing out by not getting the Post.

    Biden was excellent and the spinning of the media won’t change that.


  47. 47
    Lurking Canadian says:

    We’re not WORKING hard enough for the multi-millionaire pundit class? Is that it?

    Until conditions in North America are like one giant FoxConn plant, yes, North Americans are lazy and pampered. That is what they believe, and what they teach their children.

  48. 48
    El Cid says:


    Do we, the vast majority, not need ‘confidence’?

    No, no, you need the sweet sharpened steel love of discipline and the stinging scent of privation so that you will contribute to society in the same way that your betters already do.

  49. 49
    jonas says:

    @Rita R.: He forgot the part about letting them eat cake. How Brokaw, certainly a multi-millionare, can sit there and talk as if poor and middle class Americans are these pampered layabouts who sit around playing bridge and lighting their Cubans with their Social Security disability checks and really need to learn how to tighten their belts and be less entitled, is beyond me.

    It’s like Mitt Romney — the guy has seriously probably never even known anyone who did not have a chauffeured car. They have no concept of how the vast majority of Americans live and the financial stress people live under. To be privileged is one thing. To be so gobsmackingly unaware of that privilege is another.

  50. 50
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    Ever notice how nobody on TV ever talks about sacrificing themselves, it’s always other people who don’t have huge 401K golden parachutes and 6 figure salaries? Fuck them.

  51. 51
    Rita R. says:


    To be privileged is one thing. To be so gobsmackingly unaware of that privilege is another.

    Yes. And to be so willing to take from others who don’t have much so you can not give up any portion of your riches or can have even more.

  52. 52
    amk says:

    @kay: Occupy wall street should really have been occupy msm. These fucking corrupt bloviators are the real enablers and perpetrators of worst kind of capitalism as seen today.

  53. 53
    Shawn in ShowMe says:

    Uncle Joe Biden loves everything about politics. He loves the camaraderie, he loves to mix it up in front of the cameras, he loves the traveling, he even loves the sausage-making process. After being written off as a serious Presidential contender in 1988 based on an overblown plagiarism charge, it’s nice to see Joe Biden evolve into an almost mythical political figure.

  54. 54
    Kane says:

    It is rather amazing that in 2012, with all of the challenges that we face, we still have to devote so much time and energy towards fighting for and protecting Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, access to affordable health care for all Americans, economic equality and marriage equality and a woman’s right to choose.

  55. 55
    raven says:

    Soledad is da bomb.

  56. 56
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Baud: And barely anything young folks or Latinos are specifically intererested. Yes, we all need to think about Medicare and taxes, but still.

  57. 57
    Steeplejack says:

    I like this in Pierce’s pre-debate piece:

    Suddenly, people started talking about what had been plain from the beginning of his rise to national prominence–that Paul Ryan is as much of an unlettered extremist on economics as Louie Gohmert is on terror babies, or Paul Broun is on how the world came to be created. Conservatism’s mansion has many rooms, and almost all of them are padded.

  58. 58
    bemused says:


    That’s the big tell, isn’t it.

  59. 59
    debbie says:

    Althouse is calling Biden “horribly rude” so he must have won!

  60. 60
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    @kd bart: A Democrat cannot win in these things. Obama was too polite, Biden was too rude. It will never change.

    CNN this morning showed clips of it and then Dana Bash “summarizes” :

    “This morning, Democrats defending Biden, Republicans saying that he was rude”.

    There it is. Start with the Republican premise, summarize the Democratic position as their dismissal of the Republican malarkey, then repeat the Republican attack. Fair and balanced!

  61. 61

    I know it’s the 11th hour of an election and people are furiously giving money to one candidate or another. But our fundraising drive at Pottersville is still up because we’re not out of the woods,yet.

  62. 62
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    @raven: Really? You mean the host on CNN?

    She seems to be falling in line with the Republican “Will Biden’s despicable rudeness hurt the ticket?” premise entirely.

  63. 63
    RossinDetroit, Rational Subjectivist says:


    Valdivia Says:

    I was walking (read getting lost) in the middle of a highway in Shanghai trying to read on my cell phone the TPM and Sully threads. A couple of friends kept emailing me updates. Unfortunately without a VPN on my phone I couldn’t follow the format here, but now home I did and it was great.

    Weds morning I was on my way home from Virginia Beach to Detroit. Got shunted to a new assignment & didn’t end up getting a meal, shower and bed until 36 hours later in Hermosillo. It’s been epic. So I missed the whole thing but from the commentary it appears Joe Biden more than held up his end for the Democrats in what I hope will be a turning point at a critical time.
    Joe gets razzed for his verbal and behavioral habits. Can we give this guy the credit he’s due for being a committed and stalwart Dem who gets the job done in the clinch?

  64. 64
    victory says:

    One word can sum up Biden’s performance: Incredulousness.

  65. 65
    Kane says:

    Republicans are surely going to target Raddatz in the next few days, as they do all “uppity” women…

    For a party that is desperately trying to shake their war on women reputation, that’s a strategy that could backfire.

  66. 66
    raven says:

    @RossinDetroit, Rational Subjectivist: Hermosillo, you were so close to the beautiful Sea of Cortez and my old fishing grounds!

  67. 67
    amk says:

    The grey lady editorial is pretty good.

  68. 68
    RossinDetroit, Rational Subjectivist says:


    Hermosillo, you were so close to the beautiful Sea of Cortez and my old fishing grounds!

    I’m still there, though in a not-beautiful part. Might get home by Monday and might not. I hate being out of the political loop but cell data for my iPhone is too spendy for me to stay connected during the day.

  69. 69
    Paul says:

    @Rita R.:

    Tom Brokaw is a Republican and thus has a viewpoint reflecting that. It amazes me that he wants the middle class to pay things back, when we have (by far) the largest defense spending in the world. We have big business paying $0 in taxes, we have Wall Street bailouts.

    Yet, it is the middle class that had it too good. Just amazing.

    I wish Brokaw and Mark Halperin would be fired by MSNBC/NBC. They represent a small tiny faction of this country and they add nothing of value.

  70. 70
    TheronWare says:

    The way I see it, Paul Ryan was the victim of a major league beat down last night.

  71. 71
    Paul says:

    @Bill E Pilgrim:

    This is the same right-wing CNN who claimed Ryan won the debate 48-44. This, without mentioning that their sample had more Republicans than Democrats in it. I am so glad MSNC is beating CNN in the ratings.

  72. 72
    JasperL says:


    Was talking to a couple of business owners this morning and they are finally sort of getting it. They both talked about getting good customer traffic, but their customers not SPENDING AS MUCH DAMN MONEY BECAUSE THEY’RE FINANCIALLY STRESSED!!

    It’s what I don’t get about the “let them eat cake” crowd. Who the hell is going to buy their products if they reduce the 90% or so to working poor status. All the tax cuts on earth for the wealthy and lax regulations and bowing and kissing of rings by the rest of us ungrateful proles don’t create demand for consumer goods and services peddled by about 99% of those f’ing “job creators.”

  73. 73
    S-Curve says:

    Tom Brokaw’s tone when he said that “America needs to dial down its sense of entitlement” was so patronizing and contemptuous that I’ve been angry about it for two hours now. That and his harping on how Joe Biden’s smiling and laughing made him “goofy.” What a tendentious, moralizing asshole.

  74. 74
    sparrow says:

    @kay: I like your fire. Can we get you on the cable news?

  75. 75
    Schlemizel says:

    It sucks because its a video but CBS snap poll gave the win to Biden 50/31 with 19% mouth-breathing marginally-sentient undecided


  76. 76
    Joel says:

    @Suffern ACE: As my dad told me: climate change is your problem.

  77. 77

    @Rita R.:
    I’m fine with this. Let Brokaw and the chattering Punditocracy talk about how the middle class need to suffer. Why? Because Joe Biden just went on the air and passionately, even vehemently announced that he and Obama think the middle class need to be protected and the safety net not just preserved, but expanded. Ryan and Romney have been trying to pull a ‘Who, us? We’re not against the safety net!’ The more the pundits talk about the middle class needing to suffer, the more the middle class will know they ARE in danger and who is on their side.

  78. 78
    Maude says:

    That’s for the 99% or the 47%. He is not in that group of feeling owed. he got his, he is a liar and he does not like Obama or Biden.
    I don’t need Brokaw to tell me what this country needs.

  79. 79
    pseudonymous in nc says:

    @Rita R.:

    Tom f-ing Brokaw just now was talking about Americans having to get used to the idea that they have to give things back.

    He can start by giving back all the money he’s made from fellating the corpses of the “Greatest Generation”.

    I’m reminded of what the late Bill Hicks said about Jesse Helms and “tightening our belts”.

  80. 80
    Drew says:

    Hrm. If Joe Biden doesn’t crack the “top 20” intellects, I guess I belong to a hell of a good party. I’d like to meet those other guys. And LMFAO at Ryan being the smartest Republican. God help them if that’s true. Wait…no, don’t.

  81. 81
    negative 1 says:

    @WereBear: engage. Please engage. Letting this sh@t go by unchallenged is what allows people to believe that the loudest most rude opinion is the group mentality. If they see that people are arguing about it, they won’t just instinctively agree that Faux News is the real viewpoint.
    /end rant

  82. 82


    Nobel Peace Prize awarded to EU

    Good. I hear they could use the prize money.

    And Biden clearly won, otherwise the winger crowing would be more substantive. Kind of surprised how brazen CNN was at trying to shape the narrative.

    It really is a shame that Biden’s “I can’t fucking believe this kid’s bullshit” approach isn’t an option for Obama for a multitude of reasons. Because (IMO) it worked.

  83. 83
    negative 1 says:

    @S-Curve: Why in Tom’s day he put on his own makeup to be a vacuous talking head who added nothing to the national dialogue and didn’t actual produce a good or a service. So pull yourself up by your bootstraps and hard work!

  84. 84
    Petorado says:

    Used to be that an element of strong leadership was to not suffer fools gladly. Now the media is characterizing this as being rude.

  85. 85
    dww44 says:

    @Rita R.: Please DO SEND this comment to Tom Brokaw. He needs to be brought down a few pegs and forced to view the world of reality a huge number of his fellow citizens occupy. I almost cannot tolerate listening to him any longer. Could you provide a link to where you heard this, cause I’d like to weigh in too.

  86. 86
    Anna in PDX says:

    43: Preach it! This needs to be on a bumper sticker. What about *our* confidence? If we don’t buy stuff they don’t make money. I am not a regular here but some of you may remember I work for a local housing bureau and my partner works with homeless senior citizens. They LIVE ON social security and literally that’s it. And mostly they are working class folks who have health problems earlier because they have much more physically demanding jobs and they are the ones that get penalized by the SS system because they retire earlier. They could really use the full benefit more than those of us who are lucky enough to have desk jobs and pensions and they are the ones who lose. I was mad yesterday because everything was about the “middle class.” The working class needs help and “confidence” too.

  87. 87
    G says:

    @Lurking Canadian: Yes and that 30-whatever percent of us who are “takers” need to be moved into forced labor camps in order to end their dastardly thieving parasitic ways.

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