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You are here: Home / Sports / NFL Open Thread

NFL Open Thread

by John Cole|  September 27, 20127:14 pm| 96 Comments

This post is in: Sports

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Looks like my boycott of the NFL lasted an entire three days, and now that the refs are back, I can watch tonight. If there is ever a contest for the most painless bit of slacktivism ever, this boycott of mine will win in a landslide. Vow to quit watching football immediately after MNF until the refs are brought back, two days with no games for me to boycott go by, the refs are back, and less than three days after my vow, I can safely watch football again.

I’m not sure how anything could possibly beat that. Also too, GO BROWNS!

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Reader Interactions

96Comments

  1. 1.

    Evolving Deep Southerner

    September 27, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    The real games don’t happen until Saturday. Go DAWGS!

  2. 2.

    JWL

    September 27, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    “Go Browns”… hardee har har.

    Did you hear Jerry Jones on Tuesday morning? “I went to bed at half-time, and read a blurb about the [ruckus] in this morning’s paper”. That asshole.

  3. 3.

    Steve

    September 27, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    This post reminds me of how every year I give up football for Lent.

  4. 4.

    SatanicPanic

    September 27, 2012 at 7:20 pm

    Dude you have super powers. just the threat of boycott was enough to end the strike.

  5. 5.

    Bubba Dave

    September 27, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    @SatanicPanic: “If we’ve lost John Cole, we’ve lost America.”

  6. 6.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    September 27, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    They wouldn’t have settled without your lack of support. ;p

  7. 7.

    raven

    September 27, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    @Evolving Deep Southerner: I got an extra 1st row upper deck ticket!

  8. 8.

    jimmiraybob

    September 27, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    Well, I’m in. I’m a little late to the party but as of now I’m retroactively boycotting the NFL. Starting right after lunch earlier today.

    ….

    ……..

    Woooohoooooo, a win!

    Thanks Mitt Romney. You’re pioneering contribution to retroactive action has made it possible to get a whole lot done at a time and in a way that is most convenient.

    Go Rams! [hey, a boy can dream]

  9. 9.

    danimal

    September 27, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    GO BROWNS???

    In that case, I’m looking forward to the drunken, rage-filled rant that’s coming in…ooooh…4.5 hours or so.

    The Steelers aren’t going to back into anything via cheap Raven losses, they’ll have to earn it on the field.

  10. 10.

    FridayNext

    September 27, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    @SatanicPanic:

    Agreed. Paraphrasing LBJ I suspect Goodell was lamenting, “If we’ve lost John Cole, we’ve lost Middle American.”

    Lock-out solved.

    Edit: I see Bubba Dave beat me to the reference. But at least I got a more accurate quote.

  11. 11.

    raven

    September 27, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    Three days? Come on, three football weeks including Monday, Thursday and Sunday!

  12. 12.

    different-church-lady

    September 27, 2012 at 7:24 pm

    I like to think it was your poutrage in particular that broke the camel’s back.

  13. 13.

    The Sailor

    September 27, 2012 at 7:24 pm

    @Steve: I gave up football for lint. Lint kept getting caught in my nose so I switched to coke. Then the bubbles made me sneeze. So I went back to football.

    Why are you looking at me like that?

  14. 14.

    kc

    September 27, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    You can take credit!

  15. 15.

    freelancer

    September 27, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    I can’t believe no one said this yet, but…

    VICTORY!

  16. 16.

    andrea

    September 27, 2012 at 7:27 pm

    Gary Bettman can still eat a bag of dicks.

  17. 17.

    lamh35

    September 27, 2012 at 7:28 pm

    OT, but Jesus H. Christ, if this pic isn’t photoshopped, it should be used to hammer Scott Brown for his “meh” reaction to his supporters racist actions.

    Jeez!

    https://twitter.com/DCPlod/statuses/251398530999136256

    Oh. My. God. RT @SueWinMA: This is what Scott Brown’s racist campaign has brought to Massachusetts >> PHOTO pic.twitter.com/uyV1M7Z4 #masen

  18. 18.

    MattR

    September 27, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    Personally, I think it was the hunger strike by tens of thousands of football fans yesterday that did the trick.

  19. 19.

    General Stuck

    September 27, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    anybody got a link for the game?

  20. 20.

    The Sailor

    September 27, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    Well, sure, it wasn’t the uncalled death blows, it was the Packers losing on MNFB.

    Once you’ve lost Obama …

  21. 21.

    Mechwarrior Online

    September 27, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    This is brutal, it’s Webb warming up

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/charlie-mahtesian/2012/09/webb-drops-the-hammer-on-romney-136858.html?hp=l7

  22. 22.

    J. Michael Neal

    September 27, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    @andrea: The puck drops in 24 1/2 hours!

  23. 23.

    ricknro

    September 27, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    One of my favorite things about this blog is the occasional NFL posts. It was here last week where I found a link for live-streaming the Raider / Pittsburg game…I game I couldn’t get because of where I live.

    Tonight’s game reeks of a stinker…the Cleveland Browns? Yikes…

    Green Bay got screwed last Monday but Packer fans should thank their lucky stars that it was only a regular season game. I’ve watched the Raiders over the years get screwed out of 3 playoff games by blown calls and officiating incompetence.

    Ten years after he retired, Frenchy Fuqua admitted that the Bradshaw’s pass him in the immaculate deception game. Playoff gift to the Steelers.

    The the blown call on the Rob Lytle fumble in Denver at the Raider goal line screwed the Raiders out of a chance to defend their championship. Playoff gift to Denver.

    And then there was the worst call in NFL history…the tuck rule. The thing is, after ruling a fumble on the field recovered by Oakland, Walt Coleman put his head under the hood and decided that there was indisputable visual evidence that Brady was attempting a pass. There is no one on the planet that saw that play thought it was anything but a fumble. But worst of all, replay was used to reverse it.

    I’ve been against replay ever since.

  24. 24.

    MattR

    September 27, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    @The Sailor: If anything, I’d say it was losing Scott Walker and Paul Ryan that had the bigger effect.

    @General Stuck: I would definitely look for better options but atdhe.eu has links (They used to have a US site but the gov’t claimed it. I think http://88.80.11.29/ is where it is now) The quality is not that great, but it is watchable (and the problems could also be because of my setup).

  25. 25.

    RossinDetroit, Rational Subjectivist

    September 27, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    Open thread? Still in Mexico. May be home by dark on Sat. Starting work at 3:00 am tomorrow and must succeed or heads will be used as bocce balls.
    Upside: I’ve been too panicked for 2 days to think about US politics, like Soonergrunt. I recommend it.

    RossinDetroit, Rational Subjectivist +2 cerveza.

  26. 26.

    General Stuck

    September 27, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    @MattR:

    Thanks.

  27. 27.

    ? Martin

    September 27, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    @lamh35: That’s gonna backfire…

  28. 28.

    RSA

    September 27, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    But it was a moral victory.

  29. 29.

    raven

    September 27, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    I’m no Webb fan but Hooraah!

    ‎”They paid, some with their lives, some through wounds and disabilities, some through their emotional scars, some through the lost opportunities and delayed entry into civilian careers which had already begun for many of their peers who did not serve. “

  30. 30.

    Geoduck

    September 27, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    @lamh35:

    OT, but Jesus H. Christ, if this pic isn’t photoshopped, it should be used to hammer Scott Brown for his “meh” reaction to his supporters racist actions.

    That is a horrible sign, but.. man, the person complaining about racist Native American stereotypes uses a Washington Redskins helmet as their avatar?

  31. 31.

    raven

    September 27, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    @RossinDetroit, Rational Subjectivist: They used heads for the ball in Aztec basketball.

  32. 32.

    Mechwarrior Online

    September 27, 2012 at 7:46 pm

    @raven:

    That’s not even the most brutal part

    “But in receiving veterans’ benefits, they are not takers. They were givers, in the ultimate sense of that word. There is a saying among war veterans: “All gave some, some gave all.” This is not a culture of dependency. It is a part of a long tradition that gave this country its freedom and independence.”

    “And not only did they pay. They will not say this, so I will say it for them. They are owed, if nothing else, at least a mention, some word of thanks and respect, when a presidential candidate who is their generational peer makes a speech accepting his party’s nomination to be commander-in-chief. And they are owed much more than that — a guarantee that we will never betray the commitment that we made to them and to their loved ones. ”

    And Webb is Mr. White Working Class incarnate. Also his kid dropped out of college to enlist in the Marines, unlike Romney’s.

    Webb has a temper, fights dirty, and is hard to attack as some Ivy League elitist. The dude can really drive the knife home. He’s not much of a “speaker”, but he’s a good ranter when he’s mad even though he looks like he’s about to strangle someone.

    I’m a Webb fan though, sorry we are losing him as a senator.

    EDIT- also he was Reagans SEC Navy, so good luck! The dude was party of the guys team.

  33. 33.

    ? Martin

    September 27, 2012 at 7:46 pm

    If there is ever a contest for the most painless bit of slacktivism ever, this boycott of mine will win in a landslide.

    Not even close as anyone who’s had a 3 year old daughter can attest.

  34. 34.

    Mechwarrior Online

    September 27, 2012 at 7:48 pm

    http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/5064a391eab8ea2c26000004-505-530/netanyahu.png

  35. 35.

    raven

    September 27, 2012 at 7:49 pm

    @Mechwarrior Online: His stance toward the VVAW will always stick in my craw.

  36. 36.

    RossinDetroit, Rational Subjectivist

    September 27, 2012 at 7:50 pm

    @raven:

    Pelota. I remember that now and wish I didn’t.
    If we don’t succeed tomorrow a large auto assembly plant will stop assembling autos.
    Step one: fork-lift a machine that costs as much as a McMansion 15 feet in the air onto a scaffold. Then the hard part begins.

    Interesting Mexico TV fact: all of the sports shows have that blown Green Bay call pretty much on infinite loop. My Spanish isn’t good enough to know if they’re making fun of us but they might as well be. Thank FSM that’s over.

  37. 37.

    Mechwarrior Online

    September 27, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    @raven:

    I’m not saying he’s perfect, but he’s one of the good ones. And as a hardcore advocate for veterans issue and the working class, he’s in a league of his own.

    He’s also one of the most brutal tools we have for taking a hatchet to the republicans.

  38. 38.

    raven

    September 27, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    @RossinDetroit, Rational Subjectivist: Not the GM plant in Hermisillo?

  39. 39.

    Joseph Nobles

    September 27, 2012 at 7:55 pm

    John G. Cole: getting shit done since 1981.

  40. 40.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 27, 2012 at 7:59 pm

    The Princess Bride is about to start on AMC. I am outta here.

  41. 41.

    raven

    September 27, 2012 at 7:59 pm

    @raven: Hermosillo

  42. 42.

    killer

    September 27, 2012 at 8:01 pm

    I don’t want to rain on your boycott parade, but the refs are back for the same reason there is an injury report for the NFL. Please note that the settlement came immediatly following ONE casino offering refunds to folks that bet on the packers game. Think NFL management knows addelson?

  43. 43.

    RossinDetroit, Rational Subjectivist

    September 27, 2012 at 8:02 pm

    @raven:

    Can’t say. Wouldn’t be prudent. But not to worry. We will prevail.

    +2

    Need to sack out for the 3:00 am wakeup. I’ll catch up on the elections hysterics on Sat.

    Cheers

  44. 44.

    Hill Dweller

    September 27, 2012 at 8:02 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: The Name of the Rose, which IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes tells me is good, is coming on Sundance.

  45. 45.

    Thoroughly Pizzled

    September 27, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    Last season, the Ravens lost to the Seahawks and Jaguars. Never rely on them to win the games they should.

  46. 46.

    cathyx

    September 27, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    Go Browns? Who are they playing? Cincinnati?

  47. 47.

    raven

    September 27, 2012 at 8:05 pm

    @Hill Dweller: Trippy flick.

  48. 48.

    patrick II

    September 27, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    Although I have no skin in the game I did not care much for the settlement. At a time when the refs had as much leverage as they were going to get, they gave away the retirement system’s guaranteed benefit starting in five years. It sounds like the old refs (of which there are many) sold out the young refs, much like Paul Ryan is trying to get the current medicare beneficiaries to sell out the younger ones.

  49. 49.

    Felinious Wench

    September 27, 2012 at 8:12 pm

    @Hill Dweller: Good movie, but the book is…great isn’t the right word. Profoundly great.

  50. 50.

    MattR

    September 27, 2012 at 8:13 pm

    @patrick II: I can’t believe that they did not hold the line that all current refs keep their pension, even if all new refs are in a 401K type plan. But who knows what the state of negotiations was last week so we can’t judge how much the NFL moved from their previous position. If the NFL gave in on a bunch of other items, the refs might have felt pressured to make this concession to get a deal done.

  51. 51.

    shoutingattherain

    September 27, 2012 at 8:15 pm

    Today, fix the NFL. Tomorrow, the NHL.

    hahahahahahahaha

  52. 52.

    raven

    September 27, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    @Felinious Wench: The Island of the Day Before confused the shit out of me.

  53. 53.

    dance around in your bones

    September 27, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    Has anyone else said “I blame Obama” yet?

  54. 54.

    MattR

    September 27, 2012 at 8:22 pm

    @dance around in your bones: I was waiting for the first questionable call.

  55. 55.

    redshirt

    September 27, 2012 at 8:23 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Inconceivable!

  56. 56.

    redshirt

    September 27, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    @efgoldman: Regardless of the obscurity of the crank in question, it’s going to sting. Lets see who you really are, Massholes!

  57. 57.

    dance around in your bones

    September 27, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    @MattR:

    Oh no. I think it was his tweet that did the trick.

    (Was it a tweet? I get so confused.)

  58. 58.

    dance around in your bones

    September 27, 2012 at 8:32 pm

    Ok, off to watch The Princess Bride.

    Fuck politics.

  59. 59.

    salvage

    September 27, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    GO Browns?

    Well you overcame Republicanism so there’s hope.

  60. 60.

    patrick II

    September 27, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    @MattR:

    “How much they moved” is bullshit. Sorry. NFL puts up some outrageous lowball positions and tells the refs to take it or leave it, and then finally “move” from it? Bullshit. Just hardball negotiations at which the owners won.

  61. 61.

    J. Michael Neal

    September 27, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    @efgoldman: ‘Great’ can be a synonym of ‘large.’ As it must be in any sentence it shares with ‘The Name of the Rose.’

  62. 62.

    SFAW

    September 27, 2012 at 8:42 pm

    @andrea:

    Gary Bettman can still eat a bag of dicks.

    Salted or unsalted?

  63. 63.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    September 27, 2012 at 8:45 pm

    These refs are practically giddy from the crowd adulation. If this keeps up, they’re going to start doing elaborate dance moves as they signal their calls.

  64. 64.

    dance around in your bones

    September 27, 2012 at 8:48 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Interpretive dance?

    That I’d like to see.

  65. 65.

    SFAW

    September 27, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    @efgoldman:
    1975, maybe?

  66. 66.

    SFAW

    September 27, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    @dance around in your bones:

    “Thhrrrreeee Grecian urns”

  67. 67.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    September 27, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    OMG, that hit looked devastating. I hope he’s okay.

  68. 68.

    honus

    September 27, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    @ricknro: Fuqua admitted that in your dreams.

  69. 69.

    dance around in your bones

    September 27, 2012 at 8:55 pm

    @SFAW:

    But of course!

    Touchdown!

    eta: or maybe I should say Shipoopie!

  70. 70.

    Felinious Wench

    September 27, 2012 at 8:58 pm

    @J. Michael Neal: Yes, it’s a large book, full of obscure references to various heretical sects and occasional bursts of Latin. All woven into the Inquisition and monk-murders and manuscripts…God, I love it so. :)

  71. 71.

    Liquid

    September 27, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    Jimminy Gillickers! The league had better fine the absolute shit out of #59 for that egregious display of dirty pool.

  72. 72.

    hilzoy

    September 27, 2012 at 9:03 pm

    GO RAVENS!!

  73. 73.

    honus

    September 27, 2012 at 9:04 pm

    @Mechwarrior Online: I’m a Webb fan too. I disagree on him on a lot of issues, but I’ve met guys that served with him, and they invariably speak of him with respect and admiration. He relentlessly went after Ollie North in 1994, to keep him out of the senate, and he rid the Commonwealth for the first time in 26 years, of George Allen as an elected official. And at the time, Allen was the 800lb gorilla of Virginia politics and on the GOP’s short list of presidential contenders. And the guy’s novel about MacArthur is really good.

  74. 74.

    FridayNext

    September 27, 2012 at 9:08 pm

    So is this game only on the NFL channel? GSDamnit!!

    Have fun you elitist, subscription channel watching 1% pig dogs. I wish I were you.

  75. 75.

    SFAW

    September 27, 2012 at 9:09 pm

    @dance around in your bones:

    But it really needs Hermione to do the narration.

  76. 76.

    Spaghetti Lee

    September 27, 2012 at 9:14 pm

    Given all the talk about the relative brutal honesty of sports reporters about how this was a political fight, I thought this from Deadspin was pretty well-written:

    The NFL locked out its referees in the name of taking away their pensions. It was not that the pensions were a threat to the longterm fiscal survival of the league—again and again, we were reminded that the sums involved were pocket change in a growing, multibillion-dollar enterprise. It was that the pensions existed at all. The mere existence of a defined-benefit retirement plan offended an ownership class that had looked around and seen that every other business owner in America had already broken that particular contract. The referees’ old deal was deemed insufficiently hard-edged or market-driven. That was the most vulgar thing about the lockout. It was a matter of ideological purity. It was … aesthetic.

    …Goodell talks incessantly about protecting “the shield.” He means the league’s heraldic corporate logo—its brand—not any useful sort of shield. His whole tenure has been a prolonged and infinitely smarmy exercise in shifting risk and liability off the league and onto the help. He changes the rules midseason to put the onus for player health onto the players themselves. He wages an “ideological” battle to expose the refs to the whims of the market. “It’s ironic that you, the NFL, is what’s screwing this brand up right now,” ESPN analyst Trent Dilfer intoned in the weird aftermath of Monday night’s game, when he and Steve Young and Stuart Scott all started talking like Ralph Nader.

  77. 77.

    1badbaba3

    September 27, 2012 at 9:16 pm

    @ricknro: Probably a good thing you haven’t had to worry about calls going against the Raiders in big games over the past three decades.

  78. 78.

    Spaghetti Lee

    September 27, 2012 at 9:17 pm

    Also, I only have basic cable, so poop on Thursday Night games. If they don’t schedule it so each team only plays one, they should. Did you know the Ravens are playing their 4th game in 18 days tonight? Exactly what is so terrible about having all the games on Sunday?

  79. 79.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    September 27, 2012 at 9:17 pm

    @Spaghetti Lee:

    Did you know the Ravens are playing their 4th game in 18 days tonight?

    It shows.

  80. 80.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    September 27, 2012 at 9:19 pm

    @Spaghetti Lee: Now that the strike’s over, I wouldn’t count on those guys sounding like anyone to the left of Romney anytime in the near future.

  81. 81.

    dance around in your bones

    September 27, 2012 at 9:24 pm

    @SFAW: Uh, Pterodactyl?

  82. 82.

    SFAW

    September 27, 2012 at 9:30 pm

    @dance around in your bones:
    I don’t remember my Music Man well enough to get the reference, sorry.

  83. 83.

    dance around in your bones

    September 27, 2012 at 9:34 pm

    @SFAW: That was a reference to Hermione.

    I linked to the Music Man song in my post at #73.

    Gads, I iz an old.

  84. 84.

    Evolving Deep Southerner

    September 27, 2012 at 9:34 pm

    @Hill Dweller: The Name of the Rose is an awesome movie. Sean Connery, Adso, and F. Murray Abraham. And an albino-ish blind monk.

  85. 85.

    SFAW

    September 27, 2012 at 9:36 pm

    @dance around in your bones:
    Yeah, I actually followed the link, but (sorry!) it was TL; DL. Yeah I’m lazy. And old. And … what was it? Oh yeah, forgetful!

  86. 86.

    burnspbesq

    September 27, 2012 at 9:39 pm

    My friendly FedEx guy brought me the new Diana Krall and John Hiatt records today. No way the NFL can compete. See y’all later.

    If a Browns win will make our genial host less cranky, then I am for a Browns win. The football match I really care about isn’t until 7:45 a.m. Eastern time on Saturday. C’mon you gooners!

  87. 87.

    raven

    September 27, 2012 at 9:39 pm

    @Evolving Deep Southerner: I guess that means you don’t want to go to the game with me?

  88. 88.

    dance around in your bones

    September 27, 2012 at 9:39 pm

    @SFAW: No worries, mate.

    The Music Man video was funny, though. Shipoopie!

  89. 89.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    September 27, 2012 at 9:40 pm

    @Evolving Deep Southerner: Best sex scene ever.

  90. 90.

    Evolving Deep Southerner

    September 27, 2012 at 9:43 pm

    @raven: You’d guess right, though I sure appreciate the invitation. I’ll be in a God damned pew for a God damned wedding in beautiful Wilson, N.C., at 5 p.m. I’ll be able to watch the kickoff and maybe half of the first quarter. Then I’m fucked.

  91. 91.

    pseudonymous in nc

    September 27, 2012 at 9:45 pm

    @Evolving Deep Southerner:

    The Name of the Rose is an awesome movie.

    Eco hated it, which is one reason why he never sold the screen rights for Foucault’s Pendulum. Kubrick made an approach, but never got past one of Eco’s people, and by the time Eco found out, Kubrick had moved on.

  92. 92.

    raven

    September 27, 2012 at 9:47 pm

    @Evolving Deep Southerner: I have 2 “commitment ceremonies. One at 6pm of the South Carolina game. I now have the DVR so I can do a media blackout and use it to watch the entire game when I flee the festivities @ 7:30. The second one is way the fuck up near Elberton the day of the Auburn game! When we had our wedding party I worked at tech with about 8 gay folks. They didn’t come to our celebration because it was Pride weekend in the ATL. Now I ask you?
    and since I am a fossil I’ll check your answer at 5am!

  93. 93.

    Violet

    September 27, 2012 at 10:32 pm

    THE NFL IS OUR MODERN DAY GLADIATORS AND WHY ARE YOU SURPRISED AT PERFIDY AND INJURIES AND VIOLENCE.

    I cannot be the first to post this, can I? Really? Balloon-Juice commentariat is disappointing.

  94. 94.

    Zak44

    September 27, 2012 at 10:53 pm

    Screw football. It’s just like dogfighting—only with people.

  95. 95.

    arguingwithsignposts

    September 27, 2012 at 11:35 pm

    I cannot in good conscience watch these NFL games, because although the owners reached an agreement with the referees, they have been horrible on moving teams from town to town blackmailing the public out of taxpayer-financed stadiums. I’m a one-issue watcher like that.

  96. 96.

    Gian

    September 28, 2012 at 12:31 am

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):

    it’s not a strike. it was a lockout.

    the owners thought the refs would fold like the players folded in their lockout (like the NFL and NBA players folded in the last year)

    there’s a whole “job creator” greed going on right now and the ownerssimply wanted to fuck the refs ove pensions – and thebasically got their way as the pensions freeze in five years, and won’t be offerred any longer to new hires or anyone after that.

    and it’s not because they can’t afford it, or the refs aren’t worth it, it’s because they’re the job creators so dfuck you

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