I don’t give a flying fuck about Conor Friedersdorf. Open Thread

The BSOD fairy has hit the OKC VA Medical Center.  I’ve been busier than a one-legged-man in an ass-kicking contest.  So I haven’t had time to do anything other than lightly skim the whole thing here, at LGM, and at The Atlantic.

Honestly, I don’t give a flying fuck about Conor Friedersdorf.  I never thought much of him in the first place.  He’s a Koch-whore who makes shiny-happy people noises so that Liberals and Democrats will feel better about slitting their own throats.  Fuck him and the shetland pony he rode in on.

40 days left to vote for the guy who is right on 95% of the things I care about, and not as wrong as he could be on the other 5%.  For those of you who are disappointed that you can’t have your magic ponies, kindly DIAF.  I have friends and brothers who are counting on the American public to NOT elect the guy who would start a war with Iran just to try and fail to please the whackjob base of his party.  Politics, like football, is a game of inches, and it really is that important.  Suck it up, pull your heads out of your asses, and DO THE RIGHT AND SMART THING.

There’s a reason that smart and decent people still hate on swing-state Nader voters twelve years later.

You know what you have to do.

Goal Thermometer

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239 replies
  1. 1
    Maude says:

    I see you fond the red color for the font. Nice.

  2. 2
  3. 3
    Steve says:

    One of my friends on Facebook linked the Samuel L. Jackson “wake the fuck up!” video with this comment:

    I have to admit that I love the video… BUT… huge caveat. I think that we need to stop wasting our votes between two major parties and shake it up by voting for the third parties.

    Sigh…

  4. 4
    👽 Martin says:

    But if I don’t hold out for my magic pony now, I’ll never get my magic pony.

  5. 5
    General Stuck says:

    The BSOD fairy

    This has not concerned me since I smashed my first computer to death just to watch Windows ME die die die

  6. 6
    Quicksand says:

    Obot.

  7. 7
    👽 Martin says:

    @Steve: Reply with a deal: If they can get 25 million ‘likes’ to that comment, which is what it would take for a 3rd party to have any impact, they should totally do it. But if they come up short, they need ensure that Romney doesn’t win.

  8. 8
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    This is the reason why nobody should take Friedersderp seriously:

    Dear Jonah Goldberg,
    __
    I’m writing this letter as a fan – I’ve tremendous respect for the pioneering work you did at National Review Online, your attempts to inject humor into political writing, and the enjoyable debates you’ve done with Peter Beinart. But I’m also a friendly critic, here to challenge your take on the current state of the GOP, the conservative movement, and the country. Perhaps I can persuade you that certain of your positions are wrongly held, though I’d be as satisfied were I moved by counterarguments.

  9. 9
    General Stuck says:

    @Quicksand:

    Quicksand Says: Obot.

    You rang?

  10. 10
    Forum Transmitted Disease says:

    This has not concerned me since I smashed my first computer to death just to watch Windows ME die die die

    @General Stuck: Just wait until you have your first one with a Mac. Oh, there’s no joy like that.

  11. 11
    Hal says:

    I’m just not going to waste any brain cells on this bullshit. He lives in fucking California for hey-zeus christos sake. It’s like living in Mississippi and saying your fine with the confederate flag. Enough with one bullshit dude who believes who knows what and has been writing about Obama as a failed President for months, know doubt while gleefully envisioning a Mitt Romney Presidency. But he’s not a conservative:

    In an interview with journalist Matt Lewis, Friedersdorf stated that he has right-leaning views but that he does not consider himself to be a doctrinal conservative or a member of the conservative movement

    Case fucking closed.

  12. 12
    eric says:

    @Forum Transmitted Disease: I smashed a Mac in Reno just to watch it die

  13. 13
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    @👽 Martin:

    But if I don’t hold out for my magic pony now, I’ll never get my magic pony.

    Magic ponies are highly overrated. I want SHARKS, with fricking laser beams on their heads. IN SPACE!

  14. 14
    Forum Transmitted Disease says:

    The BSOD fairy has hit the OKC VA Medical Center

    Overdue hardware replacement cycle or bad update?

  15. 15
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    @Forum Transmitted Disease:

    Overdue hardware replacement cycle or bad update?

    I’m sure the Romney campaign is asking themselves the same question about now.

  16. 16
    👽 Martin says:

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ: See, but with a magic pony, I could just wish for a shark with a frickin’ laser beam on it’s head in space. Problem is the firebaggers would get all pissed off because then I could point my shark at terrorists and kill them from space, and that would give them a sad, because veal pen.

  17. 17
    Baud says:

    Now that we’ve lost Conor, can Lady Lynn Forester de Rothschild be far behind?

  18. 18
    Hal says:

    @Hal:

    Dammit. I tried to change your and know before the edit period ended, I swear.

  19. 19
    Anya says:

    Soonergrunt rocks! I am underground so cant’t write much but I totally agree with you. I care about people who are senselessly dying but if you want to change America’s militaristic forgeign policythen get off you’re ass and make sure congress is full of people who share your outlook. Start at the local level and invest your time, money and energy in supporting these voices.

  20. 20
    jwb says:

    Slow news day, I guess, but three fucking posts on Conor fucking Friedersdorf—I know Soonergrunt, that’s sort of your point. But Conor boy was never going to vote for Obama any how, so why the fuck is anyone concerned about whether the fuck he was going to vote. And yet I’m seeing it not just here, but blog after blog. Did blog email list for left bloggers have an all-points bulletin about this or something? Makes no fucking sense. Nobody cares about Conor.

  21. 21
    LanceThruster says:

    As St. Ronnie said, you keeping digging through the stable muck because there’s bound to be a pony underneath somewhere.

  22. 22
    👽 Martin says:

    @Anya:

    I am underground so cant’t write much but I totally agree with you.

    Shallow grave? Diamond miner? Mole person?

  23. 23
    the Conster says:

    Obot reporting for duty.

    Of all the things that I hoped might happen this election cycle, I never EVER would have believed it if you told me that something etch a sketch Mitt said in private would nuke himself, his party, his ideology and all of his media fellaters. It’s like fucking Christmas all day now. He’s like Santa Claus for liberals. He’s the Halloween candy, Thanksgiving and Valentine’s Day for liberals. How does Obama do it? He’s The Master.

    Conor whatever can bite me. Twice on Sunday.

  24. 24
    Spatula says:

    @👽 Martin:

    But if I don’t hold out for my magic pony now, I’ll never get my magic pony.

    That is so original and funny…just awesome. Did you just make that up?

    No, really…it’s great.

    Something else that is great, and greatly entertaining, is watching Soonergrunt convince other folks to give their hard earned dollars to multi millionaire candidates.

  25. 25
    Pooh says:

    In the spirit of self-congratulation, I’d like to point out that when those of us on the left deal with this kind of issue, we tend to respond with “yes, I’ve considered all that, and I want my guy to be better on those issues, but I’m still voting for him.” Whereas those on the right tend to respond to similar criticisms of their guy with “STFU hippie. Why do you hate America?”

  26. 26
    LD50 says:

    There’s as much reason to take Conor seriously here as there would be if Doughy wrote an article refusing to vote for Obama. If Conor thinks starting a war with Iran is just as bad as drone strikes, fuck him.

  27. 27
    schrodinger's cat says:

    When did we start caring about what Conor Freakingdork said, isn’t he also a “reasonable conservative” like the OTB boys? All they care about is being the next Bobo, unfortunately for them Chunky Bobo, has already won the coveted spot. So all these low rent Bobos can do is concern troll on blogs.

  28. 28
    Penty says:

    I will admit to voting for Nader, however I’m in New York.

  29. 29
    👽 Martin says:

    @Spatula: Aw. Did mommy tell you there are no magic ponies? That’s always a hard day… A tip: don’t ask about Santa for a while. I won’t spoil it.

  30. 30
    Applejinx says:

    I was at Bronycon. I heard John DeLancie talk, about the brony movement, and suggest that the emphasis on love and tolerance was a vital counterweight to things like Fox News. Not a word of objection from the audience.

    Good ponies vote Obama because they love their communities. I don’t think there’s a significant difference between earth ponies, unicorns and pegasi. So, at this point, the Dems do in fact have the magic pony vote…

    …and anybody who keeps up with that stuff knows some magic ponies have offensive laser beam capability ;)

  31. 31
    Tim I says:

    I agree with everything you have to say, but next time could you not be so laid back. Put some emotion behind it.

  32. 32
    James E. Powell says:

    @Baud:

    Can we get her to do a TV ad endorsing Romney?

  33. 33
    gogol's wife says:

    @the Conster:

    That’s exactly how I feel. I just love that ad they did today that uses Romney’s words against him. So beautiful.

  34. 34
    celticdragonchick says:

    The whole “ZOMG teh drones iz killing people!” concern troll thing has always eluded me.

    Yes, it really fucking sucks when a wedding party or some such other gets hit. Yes, better controls are always ALWAYS going to be needed in commend and control.

    However…

    Do people have any fucking clue how aerial warfare has been historically waged and what the civilian casualty rate was??!

    Go google ‘Air Marshal “Bomber” Harris’ for starters, and then check out British RAF night time air raids on German civilian population centers. Cap it off with a photo tour of bombed out Cologne and Dresden (which we helped destroy, btw)

    People were actually found dead in the streets from asphyxiation because the fire storms had consumed all the availible oxygen.

    Air power has never been more discriminating or precise, and the military actually tries to avoid civilians(usually). Let’s keep some perspective here.

    The alternative is boots on the ground in Pakistan. I would rather not go there, personally.

  35. 35
    Spatula says:

    @Anya:

    I care about people who are senselessly dying but if you want to change America’s militaristic forgeign policythen get off you’re ass and make sure congress is full of people who share your outlook.

    Totally! Like when the Democratic Congress of 2004-2006 totally voted a quick exit from Afghanistan and Iraq!

    Oh, wait…

  36. 36
  37. 37
    👽 Martin says:

    @celticdragonchick: Better examples might be our raids on Tokyo. 100,000 civilians dead in an evening. Some boiled to death when they jumped in the river to flee the flames. The nukes weren’t any more destructive than what we were already doing – it just reduced the likelihood of our guys getting shot down.

    I’ll take drones over wiping out entire cities any day.

  38. 38
    Zifnab25 says:

    @LD50: It’s not even that. It’s the notion that a protest non-vote is somehow a noble statement and not an expression of apathy.

    If he wanted to post a multi-paragraph diatribe stating why he’s supporting Jill Stein or Gary Johnson or – hell – Mickey Mouse for President then hey, I can get behind that. He’s one man, its his vote.

    And statements like this still strike me as dumb shit.

    There’s a reason that smart and decent people still hate on swing-state Nader voters twelve years later.

    Because lots of people wanted to support the ideas Nader was pushing. Dems could have capitalized on that. Instead, we spent the next 6 years trying to out-conservative each other.

    If Conner wants to be single issue anti-drone strike, then by all means he can vote to his heart’s content. I’ll politely disagree. But its the bitching and moaning I can’t stand. “I voted for Obama in ’08 because I got wrapped up in the rhetoric, but now I’m just going to sit on my couch because political ads aren’t appealing to me anymore.” That’s lazy-ass stupidity. Get off the couch and be productive, if you really want to campaign against government sanctioned violence. Like the Nader voters did. Like the Greens and Libertarians and Socialists and Constitutionalists will. Go vote fifth party, and spend your column space selling it. BUt Conor’s a joke because he’s all hot air and no action.

  39. 39
    Thoughtcrime says:

    @the Conster:

    Of all the things that I hoped might happen this election cycle, I never EVER would have believed it if you told me that something etch a sketch Mitt said in private would nuke himself, his party, his ideology and all of his media fellaters. It’s like fucking Christmas all day now. He’s like Santa Claus for liberals. He’s the Halloween candy, Thanksgiving and Valentine’s Day for liberals. How does Obama do it? He’s The Master.

    After Obama’s re-election, we should start a movement to repeal the 2nd and 22nd Amendments just to fuck with the wingnuts.

  40. 40
    James E. Powell says:

    From what I can get to quickly via le google, this guy is a standard issue Orange County conservative. Why do so many people care what he has to say?

  41. 41
    Ash Can says:

    Courtesy of commenter Elizajane at LGF, Politico is reporting that “top Republicans are telegraphing” that Romney’s strategy in the first debate will be to — wait for it — fact-check Obama.

    Yes, really.

    And we didn’t even have to say “I wish a mothafucka would” or anything.

  42. 42
    👽 Martin says:

    @Anya: Oh, that’s less interesting. I miss the subway…

  43. 43
    celticdragonchick says:

    @👽 Martin:

    Better examples might be our raids on Tokyo. 100,000 civilians dead in an evening. Some boiled to death when they jumped in the river to flee the flames. The nukes weren’t any more destructive than what we were already doing – it just reduced the likelihood of our guys getting shot down.

    Yep. The thermals coming off Tokyo were so powerful that the B-29’s couldn’t keep from being bounced above their normal operating altitude.

    I still have trouble imagining an entire city literally being napalmed off the face of the earth in one night.

    The definitive book to read on this is “Among the Dead Cities” by A.C. Grayling.

  44. 44

    Soonergrunt, I’m with you on this though for even more personal reasons. I cannot get health insurance right now (effin Free Market) because I have pre-existing conditions. I make too much money to get assistance but too little to be able to afford the $16,000 extra a year it would cost me to get COBRA. If I don’t have the medication for one of my conditions there is a very good chance I will die. Effin Romney and the you can use the ER. No I can’t use the GD ER you pompous, stupid jackass! So vote for Obama or people like me will die right along with our brave men and women in uniform.

  45. 45
    LanceThruster says:

    @Applejinx:

    anybody who keeps up with that stuff knows some magic ponies have offensive laser beam capability

    The DoD specs show a shark with aqua-rebreather technology affixed to the magic pony saddle. Magic ponies having targeting capabilities, but the frickin’ laser sharks can also engage targets independently and at will.

    Death from frickin’ above, MoFo’s!

  46. 46
    the Conster says:

    @gogol’s wife:

    Let’s look at what Romney’s candidacy has exposed: the attitude of the 1% to the rest of us; the unfairness of the tax code; the cravenness of the horse race media; the delusions of the right wing media; vulture capitalism and outsourcing; the racism underlying all of the Tea Party nonsense; the real Republican agenda against women and minorities; the Netanyahu/Likud influence on traitors Republican pols; and a bunch of other ugly stuff, and he was the best candidate the Republicans could field. Ha ha ha ha.

    ETA: and that doesn’t even include the very strange weirdness of Mormonism and the White Horse Prophecy. There’s so much bad juju left to delve into.

  47. 47
    MomSense says:

    Amen Soonergrunt!

  48. 48
    WaterGirl says:

    @the Conster: “It’s like fucking Christmas all day now.”

    I read that sentence as “It’s like fucking all day on Christmas now”. Which wouldn’t be half bad either, I suppose.

  49. 49
    Chyron HR says:

    I used to be a Democrat, but ever since 9/11 I’ve been outraged about Chappaquiddick drone strikes.

  50. 50
    sparrow says:

    @celticdragonchick: With Dresden we were officially at war. I’m not sure “boots on the ground” in Pakistan is really a viable option, politically (I’m assuming public would be against another war in shitty random places not obviously bombing our mainland, but who knows, and internationally I doubt it would go over). Do you honestly think drones is better than doing nothing? I am not being rhetorical… it seems logical to me that bombing innocent people just *might* turn out a few more terrorists at the local recruiting office than if the US were vague and far away. But I guess we’ve already fucked that chicken…

  51. 51
    LanceThruster says:

    @Ms. D. Ranged in AZ:

    I want my tax dollars to go for things like this.

    NOT for the Rmoney’s to buy pedicures for Rafalca and horse garage elevators.

    Mah.Thur.Fah.Curse.

    Stay well Ms. D.

  52. 52
    Zifnab25 says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    Do people have any fucking clue how aerial warfare has been historically waged and what the civilian casualty rate was??!

    I think the core concern is that we shouldn’t be over there at all. The drone strikes are typically retaliation for attacks on American military bases. And the military bases exist largely because we never bothered to tear them down after the Cold War ended.

    A lot of it goes back to Nixon/Reagan/Bush and America’s attempt to run an empire like the British did a century before. Libertarians want to tear all that shit down. Now, whether that’s wise is another question entirely. But the fact is that we aren’t running all these military campaigns because we need to nearly so much as because we want to project our power abroad. It shouldn’t be a surprise that American isolationists don’t like that, and will play up the nasty side of American imperialism at every opportunity.

  53. 53
    WaterGirl says:

    @👽 Martin:

    I’ll take drones over wiping out entire cities any day.

    Amen.

    Edited to include the right block quote!

  54. 54
    longtime lurk says:

    I can see that for my own sanity I’m going to have to quit reading this blog until after the election.

    I’m more liberal than 90% of the people here, and apparently far more liberal than Soonergrunt, but I (like Conor, who I couldn’t care less about) can’t vote for a candidate that is doing the things that Obama is doing. Killing random Muslims on the other side of the planet with robot death machines is a dealbreaker for me — but I don’t come on here all the time bashing the Obots for being less moral than me or having their priorities all F’d up. To each his own, I guess, and if you sleep soundly knowing the things that are being done with your support, then good for you. But for this I get “DIAF”?? Well then fuck you too, buddy.

  55. 55
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    @WaterGirl: I like your reading better.

  56. 56
    Jenny says:

    Re: Nader voters
    You’re right on that one.

  57. 57
    Hill Dweller says:

    @Ash Can:

    Courtesy of commenter Elizajane at LGF, Politico is reporting that “top Republicans are telegraphing” that Romney’s strategy in the first debate will be to—wait for it—fact-check Obama.

    I saw this earlier today, and couldn’t stop laughing.

    Willard is a sociopath.

  58. 58
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Zifnab25:

    I think the core concern is that we shouldn’t be over there at all. The drone strikes are typically retaliation for attacks on American military bases. And the military bases exist largely because we never bothered to tear them down after the Cold War ended.

    That horse has left the barn, however. We are going to be there, I suspect, for the rest of our lives. This is our version of the Hundred Years War you read about from Renaissance History. We will not live to see the end of this conflict.

    So, how do we end up fighting it with the least amount of collateral damage?

  59. 59
    Jibeaux says:

    I don’t give a shit what 20 year old California Republicans think, and I would still punch a Florida Nader voter in the face today. I just feel like I fit in really well here.

  60. 60
    the Conster says:

    @WaterGirl:

    Note to self: Me too.

  61. 61
    bemused says:

    @LanceThruster:

    Amen.

    And not for rich, greedy, whiney assholes who think the majority of us are as stupid as the 27% and will believe we have to kill SS/Medicare and everything else to give all our money to rich, greedy, whiney assholes so they will create imaginary jobs, cough, send more cash to the Cayman Islands.

  62. 62
    Ash Can says:

    @Hill Dweller: It absolutely boggles me that they could arrive at this as a strategy for the debate. Whichever genius in Romney’s campaign came up with this idea should be fired on the spot. And if it was Romney himself who came up with this winner of a strategy — and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was — then I almost, almost feel sorry for his campaign advisers, because their careers are going to be fucked sixteen ways to Sunday.

  63. 63
    LanceThruster says:

    @bemused:

    Yeah, it’s certainly not the case that privatization has ever been a pig in a poke that has turned out to be more expensive and less reliable (though a financial boon to those pushing it, so there’s that).

    If only we had privatized Social Security prior to the collapse we’d all be farting through silk right about now.

  64. 64
    James E. Powell says:

    @Jibeaux:

    I would still punch a Florida Nader voter in the face today.

    And let those in New Hampshire off the hook?

  65. 65
    Gravenstone says:

    Wow, just saw an ad on BBCA from some freaking teabagger outfit openly appealing for donations and pledges to vote for R-Money. It opened with “If the election were held today, President Barack Obama would win re-election”. They then went on to detail how he’d gained 5 points in the polls since the convention, and how Obama/Biden were massively outearning the Romney campaign. The fact they’re so openly acknowledging their straits (granted, couched in the usual fantasy drivel about encroaching soc!al1sm) just amazes me.

  66. 66
    Emma says:

    @longtime lurk: So you can’t stand some people dying across the planet but you’re ok with Ms. D. Ranged in AZ dying here.

  67. 67
    burnspbesq says:

    @Forum Transmitted Disease:

    Oh, there’s no joy like that

    What, you don’t like endlessly spinning beachballs?

  68. 68
    PsiFighter37 says:

    New polls out from NBC/Marist:

    NH +7
    NV +2 (tighter than I thought it would be)
    NC +2 (hell yes, we might bring back NC, which I thought was going to flip this year)

    It sounds like they may have undersampled Hispanic voters in Nevada, which would mean he’s a little wider. That said, I have to imagine OFA + Harry Reid’s turnout machine will be dialed in to the max. I can’t see Obama losing Nevada, and hopefully he can pull Shelley Berkley across the finish line.

    Winning NC would be awesome, even if it’s not necessary. And if he could increase his margin over 2008, that would be sweet. That said, Obama isn’t advertising there – but I think that’s more a sign of trying to put the game away in the core states (FL, VA, OH) before expanding the playing field.

  69. 69

    Just wanna share the coolness of what I did last week— I was part of something called A NASA Tweetup (social media tweeps get to visit a NASA center during event. NASA supplies access, bandwidth, and a bit of swag; individual pays for own way to NASA center.)

    The event: Endeavour lands at NASA Dryden/Edwards AFB, then takes off the next morning. Here’s the foto essay of Landing Day. I had an excellent time, yawl. And share it with you.

    http://www.2020hindsight.org/2.....enedwards/

    Plus: Shuttle Yoga.

  70. 70
    GregB says:

    Mitt should turn his fact checking skills on himself.

  71. 71
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    We will not live to see the end of this conflict.

    __
    I’m not 100% convinced of this because the basic geopolitical justification for Pax Americana is keeping the oil flowing at as low a cost as possible to the producers and wholesalers. Peak Oil is going to disrupt that dynamic. But in which direction, I don’t know. We could end up with catastrophically destructive multi-national resource wars that will makes us all pine with nostalgia for the good old days of the drone wars when we blew up Afghan weddings by remote control rather than entire provinces with millions of people in them. Or we could have a much better scenario in which the replacement of oil by other energy sources so transforms the US economy that the American people decide to get out of the imperial game and let the rest of the world fend for itself for a change. What seems least likely to me is that the current status quo continues for another 30-40 years.

  72. 72
    Douglas says:

    and not as wrong as he could be on the other 5%.

    Yeah, I guess he could’ve tortured the american citizen before he had him executed, without any due process, court-of-law, or similar “quaint” niceties. Although I guess that would’ve required new drone technology.

    For those of you who are disappointed that you can’t have your magic ponies, kindly DIAF.

    And for those of you that think such ‘minor violations’ of the constitution, international law and the basic ideals of what a modern democracy is supposed to do amount to “not getting a magic pony”… also, please DIAF.
    After you voted for Obama. ’cause Romney would probably start another illegal war of aggression, instead of winding it down.
    And resume torturing, instead of just protecting those who were responsible for past torture.
    And turn the assassination of a US citizen from a one-time occurance to standard policy.
    And wreck the economy… again.
    And reverse the repeal of DADT.
    And appoint another “constitutionalist” to the court, who’ll argue that the founders were definitely fans of wireless wiretapping, mandatory bible studies and absolutely hated gays.
    Actually, considering that, chances are, they’ll elect an even dumber guy 4 years down the road… let’s postpone the DIAF thingy indeterminately.

    Basically, 95% of the post is right on.

  73. 73
    burnspbesq says:

    @👽 Martin:

    See, but with a magic pony, I could just wish for a shark with a frickin’ laser beam on it’s head in space.

    I’m a pragmatist. I’ll settle for a unicorn that pisses Belgian beer and shits chocolate ice cream.

  74. 74
    Paul says:

    @Emma:
    At least he/she thinks they are moral than you and me. People like that are enabling Romney who most likely would start a war against Iran, would eliminate ACA, Planned Parenthood and what have you. But at least they are more moral…

  75. 75
    Douglas says:

    “they’ll elect an even dumber guy” – the GOP, as candidate.

    Why is it that 95% of oversights are only noticed after it is already too late to fix them?

  76. 76
  77. 77
    Ash Can says:

    And courtesy of another commenter at LGF, whaddya know, the shitheel who produced the anti-Mohammed “film” that got promoted into riots in the ME really did violate the terms of his probation by doing this, and got his sorry ass hauled in today.

  78. 78
    LanceThruster says:

    @Susan K of the tech support:

    That’s in my backyard! (kinda). I love the five ladies on the tarmac pic.

    The Endeavour will be in my work backyard (LA Museum of Science and Industry) but I am still saddened by the downside its transport has caused some of our local residents.

    I hope this is resolved and we can also do better in the future as far as mitigating damage.

  79. 79
    Mnemosyne says:

    @sparrow:

    Do you honestly think drones is better than doing nothing?

    For as long as we have 68,000 US troops in Afghanistan, sending drones in to try and kill some of the Taliban fighters who keep crossing the border from Pakistan into Afghanistan to kill those US troops is probably better than letting them cross the border with impunity.

    Once those US troops are pulled out in 2014, we won’t need to send drones into Pakistan anymore because we won’t have troops to protect.

    If you’re really oh-so-concerned about drones, the actual solution is to push for an accelerated timeline for the US to leave Afghanistan rather than demanding that all drone strikes stop regardless of the consequences.

  80. 80
    eemom says:

    May the blessings of all the deities be upon you for this post.

    That is all.

  81. 81
    bemused says:

    @LanceThruster:

    Bush went around the country many times trying to sell SS “personal accounts” to seniors but they weren’t buying it. And that was before the financial meltdown. What the hell do they tea party idiots think is different about Medicare coupons?

    My Rep, Chip Cravaack recently had a town hall where he praised Paul Ryan up and down and actually said, “It’s not a voucher, it’s premium support”!

  82. 82
    raven says:

    Do you know that color blind people cannot see red text?

  83. 83
    General Stuck says:

    Something I just stumbled across and found some interesting historical trends.

    Using the preliminary benchmark estimate, this means that payroll employment in March 2012 was 386,000 higher than originally estimated. In February 2013, the payroll numbers will be revised up to reflect this estimate. The number is then “wedged back” to the previous revision (March 2011).

    This means the BLS under counted payroll jobs by 386,000 as of March 2012. This preliminary estimate showed an additional 453,000 private sector jobs, but 67,000 fewer government jobs (as of March 2012).

    Although not uncommon, these yearly revisions, if I’m interpreting them right, but certainly not helpful in an election year for democrats and Obama.

    But also too, it is interesting the historical graph here going back to 1979, with some years over counted for new jobs, and other years under counted. Check out the years with minus, or over counted new jobs, with who, or what party had the WH, juxtaposed with years of over counts and under counts.

    Again, hope I’m reading this right. If not I deny any knowledge bout anything.

  84. 84
    burnspbesq says:

    @James E. Powell:

    From what I can get to quickly via le google, this guy is a standard issue Orange County conservative.

    Not really. Ed Royce, who was my Congresscritter prior to the last round of redistricting, is a standard issue OC conservtive. Young Conor is a spoiled brat Claremont Colleges libertarian. He lives in Venice because it’s edgy, but god forbid that any of the things that make Venice edgy ever intrude on his privileged life. As soon as his bride-to-be makes the right noises, he will high-tail it out of there and move to a gated community in Laguna Niguel.

  85. 85
    bemused says:

    I am astonished at the ad that runs on msnbc with an urgent plea to send money to Mitt, now, within the next few minutes if not sooner.

  86. 86
    Linda Featheringill says:

    @Gravenstone: #65

    “If the election were held today, President Barack Obama would win re-election”.

    Aahh. Isn’t that nice of them to spread the word? And with their own money, too! Bless their hearts!

  87. 87
    John O says:

    Can someone explain to me why the CW on both sides of the aisle is that an Iranian nuke would somehow be catastrophic in its consequences, and is worth a war?

    It’s not like they’re going to use the thing. They’d be wiped off the map, and they know it.

    I couldn’t care less if they had one, assuming they are properly put on notice that using it would result in their elimination from the World Map.

  88. 88
    Paul says:

    @bemused:

    I am assuming some those seniors selfishly thinks that it will only apply to people below the age of 55 as Ryan has promised.

    In reality people below 55 would most likely then ask why people above 55 should be exempt. Why shouldn’t a 54-year old? Or a 50-year old? Etc etc…

  89. 89
    LanceThruster says:

    @burnspbesq:

    I’m a pragmatist. I’ll settle for a unicorn that pisses Belgian beer and shits chocolate ice cream.

    If it’s dispensing chocolate ice cream, I believe the technical term is poots.

  90. 90
    Donut says:

    I just need to get my two cents in:

    Dear Conor: fuck you. No, seriously. Fuck you.

    That’s all.

  91. 91
    celticdragonchick says:

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ:

    Or we could have a much better scenario in which the replacement of oil by other energy sources so transforms the US economy that the American people decide to get out of the imperial game and let the rest of the world fend for itself for a change.

    It isn’t just oil, however. 19th century style isolationism is impossible now, and we are going to be engaged in mutiple ways (and therefore exposed to various cultural and religious grievances no matter whose side we take in any scenario) around the world. Some of this is blowback from bad decisions we have made. Some of it is nihilism and utterly irrational from our own cultural assumptions…and those assumptions are not remotely universal. Ethnocentricity is not your friend. What seems utterly irrational and strange to us will be utterly logical under a very different set of assumptions.

    In any event, increased connections and engagement as a superpower exposes us to increasing opportunity for terror, and as famous Star Fleet engineer once said “The more they overhaul the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain!”

    In short, it will become theoretically possible for one person to declare war on a nation state and potentially win if he/she can do enough damage to electronic or physical infrastructure. I do not see how the culturally and religiously aggrieved will not continue to seek out vengeance for their causes as more powerful tools continue to become available for them to cause damage and gain followers.

  92. 92
    J. Michael Neal says:

    @longtime lurk: Our point is that your refusal to vote for Obama makes Romney’s election more likely in the name of keeping your hands clean. Exactly how one can define that as behaving morally eludes me.

  93. 93
    raven says:

    OK, I gaved.

  94. 94
    dogwood says:

    @longtime lurk:
    What I’d say to you and to people like you who have such a self-satisfied sense of your own moral superiority is this – Some are to blame for bad policy and horrific outcomes, but all are responsible. There’s nothing more juvenile than the bumper stickers proclaiming – “Don’t blame me; I voted for Gore” or “Don’t blame me; I voted for McCain”. I’m sure some of the people who vote for 3rd party candidates and people like Ron Paul are true believers, but the majority are moral scolds who like to blame others while conveniently absolving themselves of responsibility. It’s the ultimate cop-out in a democratic society.

  95. 95
    burnspbesq says:

    @John O:

    It’s not like they’re going to use the thing. They’d be wiped off the map, and they know it.

    Well, that is the thing, isn’t it? Some of us are less confident than you are that Khamenei can be deterred.

  96. 96
    Steve Crickmore says:

    It seems pretty odd that a President has the wide sweeping power to conduct a large-scale air war without public debate or judicial review or any accountability or fact checking in Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan wherever, one can only imagine, and even to joke about it.

    “The Jonas Brothers are here. (Applause.) They’re out there somewhere. Sasha and Malia are huge fans But, boys, don’t get any ideas. (Laughter.) I have two words for you — predator drones. (Laughter.) You will never see it coming. (Laughter.) You think I’m joking. (Laughter. but not in Pakistan).” One of perks of the job like Air Force One, I guess.

  97. 97
    👽 Martin says:

    @celticdragonchick: I’ve never read that book. Thanks. I’m putting it on the list. I wrote a paper on that bombing in college. It was pretty horrifying to consider – and that the military put considerable energy into learning how to do it – that there were specific tactics to generate a rolling wave of fire to sweep across the city, using the natural onshore winds to help push it along. A quarter million buildings destroyed. A million people homeless. Basically a city the size of Philadelphia burned to the ground in a few hours.

  98. 98
    Anya says:

    @Spatula: That’s why you need to work on electing better representatives, asswipe!

  99. 99
    bemused says:

    @Paul:

    The kids of those IGMFU seniors should put them out on an ice floe if they can find any that haven’t already melted.

  100. 100
    eric says:

    @longtime lurk: allow me to retort. (not DIAF). This is indeed a moral dilemma and one that gets harder the more liberal you are because Obama is farther from the ideal candidate in the first instance (greater allegiance to Wall Street, bullshit education reform agenda,etc.). The goal is to criticize those actions you reject in ways that will indeed affect change and which will not empower the other side. It is tricky because there is no doubt, or to say another way, it is an existential truth, that the other option is morally worse in every way. So, the initial conditions have constrained your possible choices and even limited your ability to affect change (MSM as structural impediment). But to allow the Other to win and impact the world and its people the way they would is to let loose a greater evil upon the earth and its poorest and weakest inhabitants.

    Our job as radical leftist/liberals is to explain why all of us should alter our behaviors and expectations in ways that get us to equality and justice. We need to constructively bend the arc of history, knowing that we too participate in the subjugation of peoples through sustained third world poverty. But if we work hard to de-legitimatize things like the Washington Consensus and neo-liberal development models, we can change the world even while supporting those that would, if left to their own devices, leave the status quo alone. Look at Stiglitz and Krugman. They have come a long way from the heyday with Sacks talking about the power of the free market in Russia and around the developing world.

    it can often be soul-deadening, but without participation and perserverance, the neo-lithic right will win.

  101. 101
    slightly-peeved says:

    I think anyone saying that voting for the lesser of two evils led America to it’s current position hasn’t been paying attention.

    Compared to other countries, Americans vote less, and often vote significantly for third party candidates. The votes for Nader and Perot were significant. The Republicans deliberately suppress turnout because the more people vote, the more leftward the American electorate leans.

    Sounds to me that refusing to vote because neither party meets your standards is the problem, not the solution.

  102. 102
    John O says:

    @burnspbesq: @burnspbesq:

    Aww, c’mon. The Iranians are one of the oldest cultures on earth, and I have serious doubts their leaders are suicidal. It’s a fairly unusual personality trait outside of chronic depressives, and I just don’t see that in Power People in general.

    If India decided Pakistan shouldn’t have nukes and invaded, would you be happy?

  103. 103
    raven says:

    @dogwood: If someone pays in fucking dime in federal taxes they have nothing to say to me. If they are that against whatever they are against do what the Berrigan’s did, go to fucking jail. Otherwise they are as complicit as the next Tom, Dick and Harry.

  104. 104
    burnspbesq says:

    @Steve Crickmore:

    It seems pretty odd that a President has the wide sweeping power to conduct a large-scale air war without public debate or judicial review or any accountability or factchecking in Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan wherever, one can only imagine

    Well, that is the scope of the AUMF. You can not like it, but you can’t deny that it says what it says.

  105. 105
    ruemara says:

    @Susan K of the tech support: Super Cool! I’m kinda J of you.

  106. 106
    J. Michael Neal says:

    @John O: The assumption is that Muslims that say that they will bury you while banging their shoe really mean it, while Communists that say it are just kind of joking.

  107. 107
    burnspbesq says:

    @John O:

    If India decided Pakistan shouldn’t have nukes and invaded, would you be happy?

    Happy? Of course not. But I would sure as hell understand it.

    And that’s a false equivalence, anyway. Pakistan already has them. Iran, as far as we know, doesn’t. One fait accompli doesn’t mean we have to accept a second.

  108. 108
    scav says:

    Polling geek OT update: I guess Prof. Wang is on Sirius XM tonight 7:40pm ET tonight.

    I’ll be on “Showdown 2012″ on Sirius XM Satellite Radio’s POTUS channel with Charles Ellison to talk about prediction models and my calculation that the Democrats might retake the House. Tune in!

  109. 109
    celticdragonchick says:

    @👽 Martin:

    I’ve never read that book. Thanks. I’m putting it on the list. I wrote a paper on that bombing in college. It was pretty horrifying to consider – and that the military put considerable energy into learning how to do it – that there were specific tactics to generate a rolling wave of fire to sweep across the city, using the natural onshore winds to help push it along. A quarter million buildings destroyed. A million people homeless. Basically a city the size of Philadelphia burned to the ground in a few hours.

    My pleasure. I actually managed to avoid writing on WW II in my various college hisotry classes (although the research paper I did on the Magdalene laundries in Ireland was horrific in its own right).

    Part of that was a simple desire to avoid writing in my comfort zone. I could do 20 pages on the Desert Campaign in North Africa in my sleep.

    For the time being, I’m sticking with stuff like this:

    Plutonism in three orogenic pulses, Eastern Blue Ridge Province, southern Appalachians

    Much lower body count.

    I actually had my initial interview with the author of that paper today (Kevin Stewart) at UNC Chapel Hill to see if I can apply for the geology Ph.D program.
    (*crossed fingers*)

  110. 110
    Paul says:

    @Spatula:

    Totally! Like when the Democratic Congress of 2004-2006 totally voted a quick exit from Afghanistan and Iraq! Oh, wait…

    And that in a nutshell is the difference between the Tea Party and people on the left. The Tea Party organized in the GOP Primaries and got rid of those reps they didn’t like.

    The people on the left whine but won’t do anything to make a bit of difference to the make up of its reps.

    If you don’t like what the Dem Congress did, then get rid of them in the primaries! Hell, why don’t you primary Bernie Sanders who was opposed to closing Gitmo…

  111. 111
    the Conster says:

    @scav:

    I wish this comment had a Like button.

  112. 112
    raven says:

    @celticdragonchick: Knock em dead!

  113. 113

    @LanceThruster: Hee! glad you like the 5 ladies on the tarmac foto. One of my faves, too. I’m the one on the left. :) (but you prolly gathered that by the time you saw all the other Lookit me! lookit lookit! fotos in that collection.)

    The tree downing is a bummer, but I’m glad to know that they’re planing 2 for every 1 cut down. Don’t know how mature the replacement trees will be, tho. Edited to add: I’m reading the LA Weekly link. Gah. They did that without notice and with misleading statements? SMH. Gah.

  114. 114
    Dennis SGMM says:

    @longtime lurk:

    I’m more liberal than 90% of the people here,

    Then I must be more liberal than 150% of the people here (FSM at Berkeley, street actions in Oakland during the late Sixties). Lamentably, you aren’t liberal at all, you’re a purity troll. You’ll spend the rest of your life eschewing the good because it isn’t the perfect. And you’ll never suit up, show up and do the hard work that it takes within the party to elect candidates more to your liking because none of them will meet your standards of perfection.

    You’re a childish, narcissistic, navel gazer.

    You must be incredibly limber from kissing your own ass.

  115. 115

    @longtime lurk: Listen, read my earlier post. There are serious consequences for the people you see and talk to every day of your life RIGHT HERE. I’m not saying my life is more important than the Muslim on the other side of the world (because I don’t believe it is). But do you really think that Romney would help that Muslim? My God, he wants to reinstate torture! So if Romney wins people like me, someone you might see standing line in front of you at the grocery store and make small talk with, her 2 yr old boy in the cart so cute he makes you smile….that’s me. So now I AND the Muslim will be dead and we could go to war with Iran, the economy would completely stall or collapse, we would start torturing again, etc, etc, etc. If not voting or voting third party makes everything worse, then your conscience will be clean but the world will be that much worse. That’s a brilliant solution, really. Just fucking genius.

  116. 116
    Or something like that.Suffern Ace says:

    @Paul: Well there was that Lieberman thing in 2006.

  117. 117
    👽 Martin says:

    @Steve Crickmore:

    It seems pretty odd that a President has the wide sweeping power to conduct a large-scale air war without public debate or judicial review or any accountability or factchecking in Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan wherever, one can only imagine, and even to joke about it.

    Congress granted that power in 2001.

    Look, Al Qaeda threw the US legal system a pretty serious curveball. Our laws are geared to fight nations and use things like treaties to structure things. We just don’t have frameworks for dealing with something like Al Qaeda. We’re kinda making this up as we go along.

    Should there be a debate? Sure. But even here we aren’t having one. The opponents to these actions steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that there are legitimate targets in these strikes and cast the actions as nothing but random civilian strikes. Or they refuse to accept that these actions are individually approved by the gang of 6, so there is Congressional oversight. So some of us are looking at all of this and accepting the good and the bad of it, but others just can’t get past the horribleness of it. Well, it is horrible. But so was 9/11. And so were the bombings across Europe and in Bali. And so were the embassy bombings in Africa. Sometimes there are no alternatives that aren’t horrible.

  118. 118
  119. 119
    burnspbesq says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    I actually had my initial interview with the author of that paper today (Kevin Stewart) at UNC Chapel Hill to see if I can apply for the geology Ph.D program.

    Best of luck.

  120. 120
    celticdragonchick says:

    @John O:

    If India decided Pakistan shouldn’t have nukes and invaded, would you be happy?

    The US Army War College has actually gamed that scenario several times.

    It isn’t pretty.

    An Indian Army invasion with heavy armor always breaks Pakistani defences east of Islamabad by the third day of combat operations. The only option left to keep Indian forces out of the capital is the use of tactical nukes, and that means that strategic nukes will have be used at the same time in order to keep them from being wiped out by the Indian counterstrike. On or about the fourth day of a ground war, a massive Pakistani nuclear attack vaporizes the largest cities in India as well as the armored corps east of Islamabad. The Indian nuclear reprisal is merciless.

    Nobody wins.

  121. 121
    👽 Martin says:

    @celticdragonchick: Hey, good luck! That sounds promising – and pretty exciting!

  122. 122
    celticdragonchick says:

    @burnspbesq:

    Thanks!

    The interview went really well, but he noted that they only take maybe 8 applicants out of about 60 on average. My grades are good and I have a department honor and scholarship…but the odds are kinda steep.

  123. 123
    eric says:

    @celticdragonchick: borrow money from you parents and endow a Chair, that should help

  124. 124
    celticdragonchick says:

    @raven: @👽 Martin:

    Thanks! Here’s hoping!

  125. 125
    Dennis SGMM says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    I actually had my initial interview with the author of that paper today (Kevin Stewart) at UNC Chapel Hill to see if I can apply for the geology Ph.D program.

    Break a leg, kid. I’m pulling for you.

  126. 126
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @celticdragonchick: Good thoughts.

  127. 127
    celticdragonchick says:

    @eric:

    According to Mittens, I actually to borrow the 20 grand from my folks and bootstrap myself… ;)

    Bit of a contradiction, isn’t that??

  128. 128
    lacp says:

    @burnspbesq: Deterred from doing what? Giving nukes to al-Qaeda? They’d just as soon detonate them on Shia heretics as on the Great Satan – wouldn’t have to transport them as far, either. Dump a few on Israel? Sure, I can see it: devout Muslims turning the third holiest city in Islam into a sea of glass; sounds like a plan!

    No, I wouldn’t be particularly happy if Iran got nukes, but it wouldn’t make me stay up nights either. Although if we want to be certain they’re trying to make nukes, all we have to do is keep up the economic warfare, launch a military assault, or both. Then they’ll bust their asses building nukes and it will prove that Bibi was right all along. Or something.

  129. 129
    LT says:

    THis is another ABL-esque “EMORPROG!” post, and another ton of ballast on what was once the high-flying balloon of Balloon Juice.

    Grunt, please note that I’m talking about this post, and not you in general. FWTW.

    There’s a discussion to be had about what ConorF has done. And what John Cusack has done, and about Cusack’s and JTurley’s discussion, etc. I don’t agree with them. But this piece of shit hand-in-the-face blahblahblah ICAN’THEARYOU shite on BJ? A real letdown.

    Oy. John. Oy.

  130. 130
    burnspbesq says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    I know how that goes. The kid was one of over 600 candidates from around the world who were invited to audition for 24 places in the freshman class of the dance department at Juilliard. Fortunately, he was playing with house money (he had already been accepted by his first-choice school, where he is happy as a pig in slop so far).

  131. 131
    John O says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    “Nobody wins.”

    Precisely. It’s just not worth the lives and cost of a war to stop it, therefore, because the odds of them using it are so low.

  132. 132
    Paul says:

    @Or something like that.Suffern Ace:

    Yup. Again a difference between the Tea Party and the left. The Tea Party had the votes to not only primary their incumbents but also in many cases win the GE. After the primary in CT, the people on the left thought it was over. Hell, the Dem primary candidate winner took a vacation right after his “win”, while Lieberman kept campaigning.

  133. 133
    IowaOldLady says:

    Thanks for the Nader Supreme Court, Ralph.

    You better believe I’m still bitter.

  134. 134
    the Conster says:

    @Ms. D. Ranged in AZ:

    He’s got to be a straight white healthy male. No one else has the luxury in this election cycle to be so pure.

  135. 135
    celticdragonchick says:

    Thanks everybody. I appreciate it!

    Side note:

    NCU Chapel Hill is frakking huge! Really, really huge. I wore a nice pair of dressy low heels and business slacks and an appropriate business top.

    Bad mistake.

    I have blood blisters on my feet like I haven’t seen since my last 20 mile road march in the army back in 1996.

    Now I know better!

  136. 136
    raven says:

    @celticdragonchick: Cool that there football stadium is built not to mess with the normal skyline.

  137. 137
    the Conster says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    You’re a lock, because you’re awesome. CHILL THE FUCK OUT. YOU’VE GOT THIS!

  138. 138
  139. 139
    AxelFoley says:

    What soonergrunt said. All of it.

  140. 140
    Dennis G. says:

    Well said.

    The keyboard civil libertarians are almost as useless as the keyboard commandos.

    The fantasy that their inaction will keep their hands clean boggles the mind. Every Nader voter voted for George W. Bush and enabled everything that followed–and the same is true for the non-voters who decided that they were too cool to participate.

    Those who actively or passively sit this election out lend their support to Romney and the neocons holding his leash.

    Cheers

  141. 141
    celticdragonchick says:

    @raven:

    The campus is lovely, but I was lost like I could not believe. The teaching hospital part of the school is a small city all on its own. I really did not know just how big the university is. I graduated from Guilford college, which is a beautiful, small Quaker school that you can easily walk across in 15 minutes or less.

    CSU Chapel Hill is a maze. I need a better map next time I try to find the geology dept.

  142. 142
    GregB says:

    There’s that 27% statistic once again.

    Respondents to a poll on the Romney 47% remarks.

    Link to TPM.

  143. 143
    The boss says:

    And you rowdies thought the Michele Bachmann biopic was just a rumor…

    http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/crazy_eyes_2012/

    Crazy Eyes

    Zach (Lukas Haas) seems to be living the Hollywood bachelor dream – he’s got a house in the hills, the phone numbers for dozens of beautiful women and a hard-partying lifestyle aided and abetted by his bartender pal, Dan (Jake Busey). It seems nothing can tie down this divorcée father, until he meets “Crazy Eyes” – the one woman he can’t have. As the two embark on a love-crazed, booze-fueled relationship, Zach’s family issues begin to take center-stage, questioning whether or not this partying lost boy can step up to the challenge and become a man.

  144. 144
    celticdragonchick says:

    @the Conster:

    LOL!

  145. 145
    LT says:

    “@celticdragonchick:

    The whole “ZOMG teh drones iz killing people!” concern troll thing has always eluded me.
    __
    Yes, it really fucking sucks when a wedding party or some such other gets hit.

    “Concern troll thing.”

  146. 146
    LT says:

    I think what I love the most about DemsSinceObama is the new, astonishingly high-octane hate for Dems that don’t toe the line. Very Rove-ey.

  147. 147
    celticdragonchick says:

    @LT:

    I am merely asking for some perspective on that. One innocent person killed is too many. At the same time, human error is going to be unavoidable. I posit that if the conflict is going to be waged (and it is, whether we like that or not), then it follows that we should wage it in such a way as to avoid needless civilian casualties to the greatest extent possible while also avoiding harm to our own service members.

    That means we use drones…and they are far, far more discriminating and accurate than the historic norm for air power.

    Last Resort is coming on, so talk with you all tomorrow. Thanks everybody! :)

  148. 148
    LT says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    “One innocent person killed is too many.”

    Fuck you. After this:

    The whole “ZOMG teh drones iz killing people!” concern troll thing has always eluded me.
    __
    Yes, it really fucking sucks when a wedding party or some such other gets hit.

    Fuck you.

    Please take a lap. There are many here waiting for high-fives.

  149. 149
    raven says:

    @celticdragonchick: I’ve lived in Champaign-Urbana and Athens for 40 + years, I’m down with huge campi!

  150. 150
    LD50 says:

    @Gravenstone:

    It opened with “If the election were held today, President Barack Obama would win re-election”. They then went on to detail how he’d gained 5 points in the polls since the convention, and how Obama/Biden were massively outearning the Romney campaign.

    Doesn’t that *totally* contradict the wingnuttosphere’s “Romney-is-really-winning-it’s-the-biased-libtard-MSM-tricking-us-into-thinking-Obummer-is-winning” meme they’re all clinging to?

  151. 151
    celticdragonchick says:

    @LT:

    Fuck you.

    Try to have a good evening, all right?

  152. 152
    LT says:

    THis is what really really blows about all of this. It’s not just disagreement over moments or ends. It’s that posts like this, comments like celticchick’s, “EMOPROG!” screaming by not just a few, but pitchfork carrying hordes – have created a Democrat so fundamentally different than waht a Democrat was just five years ago it’s gag-inducing.

    The whole “ZOMG teh TORTURE!” concern troll thing has always eluded me.

    This is what you are now.

    Blah. Out of strenghth for this.

  153. 153
    bemused says:

    @Gravenstone:

    That’s the same one I’ve seen at least 3 times. Yes, it’s astonishing. I didn’t catch what group is mooching for money.

  154. 154
    boo says:

    Join my campaign to convince Republicans to vote Green in November!

    Since they know their candidate can’t win anything from this state, I tell them it’s a strategic move to pull the Dems too far to the left, thus making Republicans seem reasonable.

  155. 155
    Rita R. says:

    @LT:

    See, for me it’s the the astonishingly high-octane hate for President Obama and his “Obots” from those brave not-toeing-the-line Dems.

  156. 156
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Forum Transmitted Disease: Overdue hardware.

  157. 157
    Heliopause says:

    Honestly, I don’t give a flying fuck about Conor Friedersdorf…He’s a Koch-whore…Fuck him…kindly DIAF.

    Incisive analysis, rapier wit, what’s not to like about this BJ front-pager?

    Since I’m sure you’re too busy composing your next round of Hitchensian bon mots to be bothered reading further I’ll address my further remarks to the others.

    Suck it up, pull your heads out of your asses, and DO THE RIGHT AND SMART THING.
    There’s a reason that smart and decent people still hate on swing-state Nader voters

    Here’s the thing. I knew Nader voters back in ’00. They were persuadable. Conor Friedersdorf is persuadable. You want to tell 27%ers to die horrible, painful deaths? Go ahead, you’ll never change their minds, so it doesn’t make any difference other than from a simple human decency perspective. But if you want to reach the 10-ish% of persuadables you might want to try a slightly different approach.

    Anyway, I’m flush with anticipation of Soonergrunt’s next paean to subtlety.

  158. 158
    LT says:

    @Rita R.:

    See, for me it’s the the astonishingly high-octane hate for President Obama and his “Obots” from those brave not-toeing-the-line Dems.

    So dishonest.

    You act like you don’t know how the division started. You act as though it COULD HAVE started from the Obama critics side. (Or maybe reveal that you think criticism alone is wrong, or Hateful.)

  159. 159
    gwangung says:

    @LT: Stop projecting.

    Jeez. You act like a Republican.

  160. 160
    raven says:

    @Heliopause: And I can’t wait to read your dribble.

  161. 161
    different-church-lady says:

    @celticdragonchick: Sadly, I think this is his version of having a good evening.

  162. 162
    Mnemosyne says:

    @burnspbesq:

    As soon as his bride-to-be makes the right noises, he will high-tail it out of there and move to a gated community in Laguna Niguel.

    Heh. My best friend and her husband live in a (non-gated) community in Laguna Niguel.

    They have managed to stay strong Democrats in spite of it, though.

  163. 163
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    The BSOD fairy has hit the OKC VA Medical Center

    Wait, when did Oklahoma City move to Virginia? …. Oh, wait …. Okay then

  164. 164
    Or something like that.Suffern Ace says:

    @LT: As a former reader of GG it started in February 2009 and by May 2009 he’d gone off the rails. So yeah. Running the Obama has failed us starting three months into a four year term does not exactly make the other wings of the democrats actually want much to do with the weakest wing of the group.

  165. 165
    different-church-lady says:

    @Heliopause:

    I knew Nader voters back in ‘00. They were persuadable.

    Hmmm… that doesn’t sound wrong. Tell me more.

    Conor Friedersdorf is persuadable.

    Oops-a-daisy… well, it was good while it lasted.

  166. 166
    LT says:

    @Or something like that.Suffern Ace:

    As a former reader of GG it started in February 2009 and by May 2009 he’d gone off the rails.

    The fact that you don’t even bring up an *issue* is all that matters about that comment. It is – fuck me. As if some time limit is how one should count such things.

  167. 167
    Soonergrunt says:

    @longtime lurk: There are people right here at home who have health coverage now who won’t if Romney repeals Obamacare in a failed bid to get love and respect from his base. Some of them are the friends I wrote about.
    There are American military personnel who will be sent to a war with Iran that Romney will start in a failed bid to get love and respect from his base. Some of those personnel are my brothers.
    Romney will do both of these things,and anybody to right of him will only force him to do them faster.
    So yeah. If you can’t vote for Obama because of robot drones or whatever fucked up purity test he fails, and Obama loses, then two things are true:
    1) You will be responsible for more Americans and yes, more Arabs and Iranians dying. You will need to own that fact with pride.
    2) In re: #1– Die in a fire.

  168. 168
    Another Lurker says:

    Then I must be more liberal than 150% of the people here (FSM at Berkeley, street actions in Oakland during the late Sixties

    In other words, you’ve since got old and your liberalism has morphed into the kind of aggressive warlike posturing you once recognised and fought against in your youth?

    See how easy it is to throw assumptions around, and thus offend someone you desperately need as an ally?

    I guess though you truly are “More liberal than 150%”, in that you’ve doubled down on the most lethal flaw of the left, attacking those closer to your position more than those opposed to it. And then projecting that same flaw onto others too? Why, who wouldn’t want to work hard and at least get the “Lesser Evil” elected, when the people supposedly on your own side can’t resist being as offensive as possible to their desperately needed allies in a closer-than-it-should-be election?

    Fortunately, I don’t live in America, a country where “150% Liberal” still only places you on the Conservative side of most European nations. So I won’t be the “lady with the child” desperate for health care, because even under our Right Wing governments, our health systems are much more efficient and beloved, and even the Right dare not tackle them directly. Yet. Economic issues are a different question entirely, but even Obama seems to think he should follow us into the abyss on that one… do you know why though? And do you know why you get “New Labour” who proceed to invade Iraq alongside a George Bush?

    It’s because when supposed Progressives say “We have to vote X, because Y is worse”, Y simply has to keep pushing as hard Right as they can, and they win in the long run. Because X only has to be one step to their right to get all the Lesser Evil Liberals to vote for them in a series of single decisions. Whilst the Right is playing the wider strategic game; because sure Romney is incompetent and far too Evil… for now. But fortunately the Overton Window has shifted and in comparison to Romney now Obama is consider a “Centrist”, and you get defences of bombing other countries; hey, remember back in the 60s when bombing Cambodia was clearly an evil act? Apparently you don’t… I see many of you here defending the exact same policy now.

    And next election, they’ll run an even harder (and more insane) Right candidate and the Window will shift again. And blogs such as this will again castigate anyone who remains on the same spot on the left with an even direr warning of what would happen if Lunatic Mark 3 (If you think Romney is bad now, just you wait) gets in… whilst the Democrats select their own Lunatic Mark 2 to win over swing voters who might have consider Romney last time out…

    And by the time they finally think they’re in a position to come for you without needing to disguise their intentions, and your children, as the famous saying goes… there’s going to be no one left on your side to protect you. You aren’t voting “smart”, as Churchill put it, you’re just feeding morsels to the crocodile in the hopes it eats you last. And it never, ever stops eating.

    You want to talk about “Hard Work” as well? The REAL hard work would be standing on your principles, and pushing the Window backwards again. It’s easy to be snotty to “Naderites” on a blog that started out pro-Iraq war; have you considered actually biting your lip and bringing them onside? Sure, it’s too close to Election Day now to come up with a better candidate… but you’re more likely to get votes for Obama and save your precious short term view by showing how afterwards the future holds something more than insults and the slow slide down the crocodiles throat.

    Working to Primary anyone who wasn’t a genuine liberal, just like the Tea Party has done would be a start. They may be Evil, but the money behind them isn’t dumb, the tactic works, and they’ve captured one of the Big Two with that…

    But in the meantime, add me to the list of long term lurkers who is going to find this blog unbearable until after the election is over; If this is the level of awareness exhibited, I’ll find my coverage of the US election elsewhere, thanks. Somewhere my sympathy for what happens to the decent people of your country isn’t compromised by the determination here to be Ugly Americans.

  169. 169
    Rita R. says:

    @LT:

    Actually, I do remember how it started. The cries of outrage from the purity brigade of the left started before Obama even took office over FISA, and then the agonizing wails of betrayal continued because Rick Warren led a prayer at the inauguration. It went on unabated after he actually became president, with other early outrages being Obama not automatically waving his magic wand and instantly eliminating DADT and DOMA or singlehandedly shutting down Gitmo over the votes of something like 90 percent of Congress.

    The division was started from jump by the firebagging left, which was quick to dub anyone who defended Obama an Obot in thrall to “dear leader.” I don’t have a problem with criticism. I do have a problem with demagoguery from either side and with Democrats condemning the president from their own party as a diabolical dictator for not being able to achieve a utopia that exists only in the dreams of fantasists.

  170. 170
    Emma says:

    LT: what issue would you like to discuss? I really do want to know. Usually, granted, I’m a bitch on wheels, but I do want to know.

  171. 171
    LT says:

    @Or something like that.Suffern Ace: And the idea – so unbelievably prevalent among the Left, including sadly here – that suspicion and criticism of government, regardless of who is in power, should ever let up is just weird. That Modern Repubs do it – yeah, they are authoritarian and authority-worshiping by nature – but when Dems do it – it’s a fundamental letdown of what Dems are.

  172. 172
    LT says:

    @Rita R.:

    “The cries of outrage from the purity brigade”

    You’re not worth the time.

  173. 173
    eemom says:

    @Rita R.:

    The cries of outrage from the purity brigade of the left started before Obama even took office over FISA

    Actually, it started before he even won the nomination.

  174. 174
    The Sheriff's A Ni- says:

    @LT:

    And the idea – so unbelievably prevalent among the Left, including sadly here – that suspicion and criticism of government, regardless of who is in power, should ever let up is just weird.

    The party of the New Deal, the Great Society, and of “the government is here to help” should be suspicious of government?

  175. 175
    LT says:

    @Emma:

    It’s like having a discussion in a barfight, at this point, but several of the issues CF talks about are worth discussing. I din’t agree with him, and I think he even undermines his own justification for not voting for PBO right in the article, but the issues in the article – wel, we could now discuss how we went from the anti-reckless and unneccessary vilence and war party to:

    The whole “ZOMG teh drones iz killing people!” concern troll thing has always eluded me.

  176. 176
    LT says:

    @Emma:

    It’s like having a discussion in a barfight, at this point, but several of the issues CF talks about are worth discussing, as well as his reasoning. I don’t agree with his not voting for PBO, and I think he even undermines his own justification for it right in the article, but the issues in the article – well, we could now discuss how we went from the anti-reckless and unneccessary violence and war party to:

    The whole “ZOMG teh drones iz killing people!” concern troll thing has always eluded me.

    I mean – wow.

  177. 177
    LT says:

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-: You want to rewrite that?

  178. 178
    mclaren says:

    Thanks for suggesting I die in a fire. Sociopaths like you explain everything that’s wrong in America.

    And when you’re herded into that internment camp in another 10 years by a Democratic president who has signed an order for “indefinite preventive detention of all suspected subversives,” don’t whine. People like me told you it was going to happen.

  179. 179
    Mnemosyne says:

    @LT:

    And the idea – so unbelievably prevalent among the Left, including sadly here – that suspicion and criticism of government, regardless of who is in power, should ever let up is just weird.

    Uh, no, suspicion of the government is a libertarian thing, not a liberal thing. Democrats are the ones who think the government can solve all of our problems, remember?

    I’m guessing you cheered when Reagan said, “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.'”

  180. 180
    erlking says:

    I have this conversation with a gay friend of mine an awful lot. He despises Obama for Rick Warren and a host of other sins. The conversation always boils down to this:

    Me: “None of the shit you care about will be advanced under the opposition and a lot you do care about will be damaged.”

    Him: “You’re a moderate.”

    I love him, but I could punch him in the face.

  181. 181
    raven says:

    @mclaren: You are such a whiny fucking dickhead.

  182. 182
    catclub says:

    @John O: You probably think that a drug like marijuana could be regulated the same way alcohol is, as well.

    Crazy talk. Dogs and cats, living together.

  183. 183
    Rita R. says:

    @LT:

    Guess you didn’t like those issues, huh? Or perhaps my language wasn’t up to the polite standards of yours to celticdragonchick — “Fuck you”?

  184. 184
    The Sheriff's A Ni- says:

    @LT: What? That the party that kept J. Edgar Hoover around, approved the Bay of Pigs, had the Diem brothers capped, and peppered Al-Qaeda camps with Tomahawks should suddenly now be suspicious and critical of government? The last time I checked, my voter registration was D and not L.

  185. 185
    LT says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Uh, no, suspicion of the government is a libertarian thing, not a liberal thing. Democrats are the ones who think the government can solve all of our problems, remember?

    Bizarre. You think being suspicious and critical of those in power is in opposition to believing that government can be a (huge) force for good?

    Really?

  186. 186
    different-church-lady says:

    @mclaren: You’re just doing this for fun now, aren’t you?

  187. 187
    Spatula says:

    @Anya:

    That’s why you need to work on electing better representatives, asswipe!

    Hey, vagina-smear, so it’s not enough to elect enough Dems, now I have to elect a certain QUALITY of Dem because the party as a whole can’t be trusted. I see…

    …fuck you. No really…in case you didn’t know, MOST people are not political junkies who enjoy obsessing about this shit 24/7 as do you. Most people want to elect trustworthy folks who will do as they promise while they go on with their very busy lives. The Democratic party fails that test.

    Now clean up that mess between your legs…

  188. 188
    Mnemosyne says:

    @LT:

    You think being suspicious and critical of those in power is in opposition to believing that government can be a (huge) force for good?

    You may want to look up the definition of “suspicious” sometime. It may not mean what you think it means if you think you can simultaneously support huge government intervention in healthcare and be suspicious of that intervention.

  189. 189
    LT says:

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-:

    What? That the party that kept J. Edgar Hoover around, approved the Bay of Pigs, had the Diem brothers capped, and peppered Al-Qaeda camps with Tomahawks should suddenly now be suspicious and critical of government? The last time I checked, my voter registration was D and not L.

    I don’t know what it is, but I can make no perfect sense of you. What the fuck does that last sentence mean? Because the first sentence appears to be saying you agree with me.

  190. 190
    JoyfulA says:

    @the Conster: Well done. A wonderful summary of the 2012 new enlightenment.

  191. 191
    hep kitty says:

    Sorry for the OT, but holy shit, I’m a little behind. I just saw the part of the 47% video about the Chinese factories and the living conditions. Mitt was getting off on it. I need a shower.

  192. 192
    efgoldman says:

    @J. Michael Neal:

    The assumption is that Muslims that say that they will bury you while banging their shoe really mean it, while Communists that say it are just kind of joking.

    Well, its perfectly logical, don’t you see? The commies were European, and white, and went to school, and had logic n’shit.
    Not like those godless wogs who don’t value human life, and would gladly destroy one of the world’s ancient great cultures just to go meet all those virgins in heaven…
    Plus, they’re brown, also too.

  193. 193
    LT says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    I’m suspicious of people in positions of great power. I live in Australia. I wish the U.S. had health care like the Aussies did.

    I’m suspicious of cops. I support having cops.

    I could go on.

  194. 194
    Pinkamena Panic says:

    LT, just fuck off. You’re a nothing and a nobody.

  195. 195
    Emma says:

    @LT: You’re thinking of the party as a monolith. We’re not. The spectrum runs from pacifist to warrior and back again. And if I were to parse that sentence, I would say that it’s more about the concern troll than a belief that the drone issue is not important.

    The problem, as I see it (and God, it has been explained over and over again by others more eloquent than myself) is that politics isn’t really a good vessel for great principles. Politics is a matter of better/worse/impossible choices. One of my favorite quotes from Heinlein goes something like you might not have something to vote for, but you sure as hell will have something to vote against. And that’s how a lot of us see this election. We need to keep the Republicans from grabbing all the levers of power, because what they will do is much worse than anything Obama has done.

  196. 196
    LT says:

    @Pinkamena Panic:

    You’re a nothing and a nobody.

    Awesome.

  197. 197
    Mnemosyne says:

    @LT:

    I’m suspicious of people in positions of great power. I live in Australia. I wish the U.S. had health care like the Aussies did.

    Oh, goody. There’s nothing I love more than foreigners lecturing us about how much better they understand what’s going on in the US than the lowly people who actually live in the US do.

    Fuck off.

  198. 198
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    @LD50: Isn’t that kind of demotivating? I mean, at least give people some hope that they might succeed if you want them to give. These people certainly don’t have a clue about how to motivate givers. If it’s doomed, then it’s not going to help to give to Romney. So don’t mention the possibility of failure or ask for money to go to winners.

    I’ve never understood the emoprogs inability to come to reality: that is that we have only 2 effective political parties in this nation. Only two parties have access to the real power in this nation, and it’s likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future. So it would be far better to be on the inside and influence a party than to hope that a Jill Stein or Nader or Barr can beat the immense odds and actually win. Even if they did, third parties are so rickety that they literally have no bench of talent to draw on for governance.

    But the emoprogs refuse to get the basic facts of governance in this country, preferring to rely on a “wave” to actually get things done. Or a “movement” that doesn’t have to engage with power and the compromises that are sometimes needed to get something done. Obama the community organizer realizes that his job is to get something done, not pose around a building for pictures. Indeed one of the disconnects between movements of people who need something good to happen and the emoprogs is the acceptance of power. Civil Rights veterans sit in the halls of Congress and have run for Mayor. Feminists run for Congress. The Emoprogs refuse to engage with power because in their view, power, even legitimate power corrupts. Or because it means talking to people who are not “pure” in their concepts.

    And is it just me, or is it that the only time we hear from them about how “compromised” a President is is when that President happens just to be a Democrat?

  199. 199
    LT says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    I siad “I live in” Australia. I’m American.

  200. 200
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mnemosyne: No, no, it’s easy if you think of “The Government” in a quantum mechanics kind of way. Look at it one way and it behaves like a particle The New Deal. Look at it another way and it behaves like a wave the military industrial complex.

    The really important thing is to wave around the term “the government” in as loose a way as possible. That way everyone will look at it in their own way.

  201. 201
    lacp says:

    For a wet-behind-the-ears glibertarian fanboi of the Doughy Pantload, Fritters has really stirred the shit here. He’s probably tickled pink.

  202. 202

    Whether it is done by an emoprog or by a concern troll, elevating a single issue to be determinative speaks for itself. We get it.

  203. 203
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Emma: If you don’t like Heinlein, there’s always Galbraith: “Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable.”

  204. 204
    LT says:

    @Emma:

    @LT: You’re thinking of the party as a monolith. We’re not. The spectrum runs from pacifist to warrior and back again.

    I dont’ at all think of the party as a monolith, but I do think there are some fundamentals, such as standing for the powerless against the powerful. And warriors yeah, but I would have thought being solidly against war-crimey things was in there too.

    @LT: You’re thinking of the party as a monolith. We’re not. The spectrum runs from pacifist to warrior and back again. And if I were to parse that sentence, I would say that it’s more about the concern troll than a belief that the drone issue is not important.

    Oy. So are, say, concientious objectors “concern trolls”? Or Quakers? I think people who have a line that can’t be crossed concerning violence ADD to the party. This “concern troll” thing is nauseating. My opinion.

    The problem, as I see it (and God, it has been explained over and over again by others more eloquent than myself) is that politics isn’t really a good vessel for great principles. Politics is a matter of better/worse/impossible choices. One of my favorite quotes from Heinlein goes something like you might not have something to vote for, but you sure as hell will have something to vote against. And that’s how a lot of us see this election. We need to keep the Republicans from grabbing all the levers of power, because what they will do is much worse than anything Obama has done.

    As I said, I disagree with Cusack and ConorF – so yeah. I agree. (That doesn’t change my opinion on what I said above, just to note.)

  205. 205
    raven says:

    @Another Lurker: “But in the meantime, add me to the list of long term lurkers who is going to find this blog unbearable until after the election is over”

    So what’s going to change after the election?

  206. 206
    Mnemosyne says:

    @LT:

    Oh goody. There’s nothing I love more than expatriates who don’t actually live here telling me that they know better than I do what’s going in inside the US.

    Again, fuck off.

  207. 207
    dogwood says:

    @mclaren:

    And when you’re herded into that internment camp in another 10 years by a Democratic president who has signed an order for “indefinite preventive detention of all suspected subversives,” don’t whine.

    Hey, Michele. How ya doin?

  208. 208
    LT says:

    @Emma: I have to go our for while.

  209. 209
    Emma says:

    @LT: Quakers, and conscientious objectors of all kinds are not concern trolls because they accept responsibility for their actions. Have you ever looked into the Ambulance Corps during WWI? So many men that would not fight but would go UNARMED into battlefields to carry out the wounded. That is principle in action.

    The people we’re talking about accept no responsibility. They DO NOTHING but pat themselves on the back for their morals. The choices they make can make or break thousands of people both in the US and abroad, but they can only see their disappointment.

    Have you ever read the Peter Wimsey novels? Peter says something in one of them that has always resonated with me. The first thing a principle does is kill someone. If that is the road they want to take, it’s fine, but you have to own the outcome.

    One last quote from another favorite character: When you choose an action, you choose the consequences of that action. They don’t. They don’t want to.

    I know this is a little disjointed. It’s been a long time and I’m very tired. But as I’ve said before. It’s not that we don’t see the bad, it’s that we want to avoid the terrible.

  210. 210
    Smiling Mortician says:

    @Spatula:

    Totally! Like when the Democratic Congress of 2004-2006 totally voted a quick exit from Afghanistan and Iraq!

    I realize that facts don’t matter to you, but there was no Democratic Congress in 2004-2006. Republicans controlled both chambers of the 109th Congress (elected 2004, in session 2005-2007).

  211. 211
    Gravenstone says:

    Geeze, let a thread linger long enough and all the trolls come out to play.

  212. 212
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Emma:

    I see we have some of the same favorite books. :-) Another applicable quote by that second author, spoken to a band of terrorists:

    “If I unleash ImpSec, the consequences will be my responsibility. It’s that devil’s distinction between being in charge and being in control. I’m in charge; you’re in control. You can imagine how much this thrills me.”

  213. 213
    LT says:

    @Emma:

    @LT: Quakers, and conscientious objectors of all kinds are not concern trolls because they accept responsibility for their actions. Have you ever looked into the Ambulance Corps during WWI? So many men that would not fight but would go UNARMED into battlefields to carry out the wounded. That is principle in action.
    __
    The people we’re talking about accept no responsibility. They DO NOTHING but pat themselves on the back for their morals.

    I don’t understand. Regular American people who were shocked to hear about torture – they *were* concern trolls because they didn’t… you’ve lost me. what do you mean by “accept responsibility”? And what do you know about the motives and morals of every person who may decide not to vote for one person or another? That sounds very reaching.

    WHy do you assign ulterior and ugly motives to people who are doing things differently on this? Like I said, I don’t agree with them on not voting for PBO, but I don’t feel a need to question their motives. This really is by any measure deeply ugly stuff.

  214. 214
    scott says:

    @LT: @LT: @LT: When liberals start demonizing others who approach the issue of voting their conscience differently, they’re not behaving like liberals but like tribalists. And it is ugly.

  215. 215
    scott says:

    @LT: @LT: @LT: When liberals start demonizing others who approach the issue of voting their conscience differently, they’re not behaving like liberals but like tribalists. And it is ugly.

  216. 216
    slightly_peeved says:

    @LT:

    It’s funny to hear you criticise Americans advocating voting for the lesser of two evils, while extolling features of Australia – where voting is compulsory, an:d preferential voting requires the selection of the least evil candidate.

    @ Another Lurker:
    You don’t think UK Labour’s shift to the right was, just maybe, because they kept losing?

  217. 217
    Emma says:

    @LT: Now you’re shifting the goalpost. In the context of what was being discussed — not voting because you can’t bear being associated with Obama’s actions in Afghanistan — accepting responsibility means knowing and accepting up front that if Obama loses you are in part responsible and that you have chosen the Republican policies over Obama’s. Period.

    I think it was earlier in this thread where someone posted about the fact that if Obama is defeated and Obamacare was overturned, SHE HAD A REALLY GOOD CHANCE OF DYING. And I also noticed how many of the pure concern trolls avoided dealing with that particular ethical issue.

    Motives ain’t worth shit unless you deal with the consequences of your actions. Some of the worst things in history have come from the best motives.

  218. 218
    FlipYrWhig says:

    So this massive political force to the left of Obama that has been ignored for far too long… How many people are we talking about here? And is it greater than the number of people who want to return to the gold standard? Or greater than the number of people who think the letters and numbers on lamp posts are instructions for the invading UN New World Order army?

  219. 219
    slightly_peeved says:

    @LT:

    On rereading your earlier stuff, I missed that you disagreed with the decision not to vote, so ignore my previous post.

    On the issue of assigning ulterior motives, a number of people who criticise lesser of two evils arguments do so by implying some lack of moral fiber on the part of those choosing the lesser of two evils. That assignment of ulterior motives has been going on a while now.

  220. 220
    Soonergrunt says:

    @FlipYrWhig: Well, if it’s similar to those groups in as much as its members tend to think it’s a lot bigger than it really is.

    I have no patience for those who would make the unachievable perfect the enemy of the achievable good. They forget that they live in a country where the vast majority of the population does not share their positions, and that this country has a political system designed from the ground up to moderate extremes.

  221. 221
    dogwood says:

    @Emma:

    Well stated. As I said earlier – Some are to blame, but all are responsible. I really don’t have a problem with Nader voters, libertarian voters, Green Party voters, ect. But I do have a problem with people like LT, and Conner F who feel free to disparage my moral compass because I don’t choose their methods of political participation. And it is beyond insulting for people like this to hold Obama voters responsible for the things that haven’t worked out so well, while refusing to hold themselves responsible for the potential downside of a Romney administration. I own my vote for good or ill. It’s irresponsible to ignore that.

  222. 222
    General Stuck says:

    Voting is personal and sacrosanct, in my view. I don’t give a shit who people vote for and why. Unless they attempt to blow smoke up my ass in the process, about something I care about.

  223. 223
    Todd says:

    @LT:

    Blah. Out of strenghth for this.

    If this was an episode of Ultra Man, having made the change via the Beta Capsule from Hiyata to superhero, you should’ve flown to the sun after your light started blinking real fast.

    It’s at least as realistic as the pixie dust that you emoprogs think fuels this spinning rock….

  224. 224
    Spatula says:

    @Smiling Mortician:

    You are indeed correct, Sir or Ma’am. I miswrote.

    I intended to cite the 2008-2010 Congress.

  225. 225
    General Stuck says:

    @dogwood:

    LT gets likkered up now and then and drops by from some outback shithole he’s existing in, to spit out phony altruistic bullshit to amuse himself. He’ll sober up tomorrow, and life will go on. Until the next time.

  226. 226
    LT says:

    @Emma:

    @LT: Now you’re shifting the goalpost. In the context of what was being discussed—not voting because you can’t bear being associated with Obama’s actions in Afghanistan—accepting responsibility means knowing and accepting up front that if Obama loses you are in part responsible and that you have chosen the Republican policies over Obama’s. Period.

    That’s not shifting goalposts, I just didn’t know what you meant by responsibility. If it’s this – then yes, someone who doesn’t vote for PBO in 12 has to accept that responsibility. Again – it doesn’t make me automatically question someone’s motives for not doing so. I can’t act as I if I have the grand answers for all this. If they choose to think that not doing so is better in the big picture, well, the fact is, they might win that argument someday. I personally fear a Romney Supreme Court too much now to agree with them, among other things.

    And back to the Quakers: you gave them a pass, but by your argument people should have or at least could have called them Nazi-appeasers, no? Was that not their immediate responsibility, as you’ve reckoned it? Even the ones who went to care for the wounded? (Or maybe you meant that they did specifically take that responsibility. Not sure. Really. We are arguing over a stream, we should note, and not an ocean.)

  227. 227
    LT says:

    @General Stuck: Just starting now. Work day and all – it’s only 2pm. (I knocked off early.)

  228. 228
    LT says:

    @Todd:

    …that you emoprogs…

    Yeah, baby.

  229. 229
    LT says:

    @slightly_peeved:

    On rereading your earlier stuff, I missed that you disagreed with the decision not to vote, so ignore my previous post.

    No problem.

    On the issue of assigning ulterior motives, a number of people who criticise lesser of two evils arguments do so by implying some lack of moral fiber on the part of those choosing the lesser of two evils. That assignment of ulterior motives has been going on a while now.

    Yes, this is true. In my view the overriding equation was 1) some Dems criticized Obama; 2) some Dems OUTRAGED at criticism of Obama. This is the crux, for me. If all Dems were on what are called the “Obots” side from the start – there would be no division, right? The division started when some Dems criticized Obama – and were, and have been since, treated…

    Gotta run for abit…

  230. 230
    LT says:

    Con’t:

    Yes, this is true. In my view the overriding equation was 1) some Dems criticized Obama; 2) some Dems OUTRAGED at criticism of Obama. This is the crux, for me. If all Dems were on what are called the “Obots” side from the start – there would be no division, right? The division started when some Dems criticized Obama – and were, and have been since, treated automatically as acting in bad faith. THAT has led to a lot of division, and I mean meaningful division, where good people were ostracized, and we could end up saying things like “Oh those concern trolls harping on about *civilians trying to rescue dying people, including children* getting dronekilled! Such concern trolls!” That is a very wrong road.

  231. 231
    LT says:

    @dogwood:

    But I do have a problem with people like LT, and Conner F who feel free to disparage my moral compass because I don’t choose their methods of political participation.

    Hopefully you’ll read the thread and respond to yourself.

  232. 232
    different-church-lady says:

    @LT: Y’know, if you’re sick of being accused of being an emoprog, then you might want to consider not flying into a defensive dither every time one of the monkeys in this cage flings the term through the bars at nobody in particular.

  233. 233
    Bruce S says:

    I am a big supporter and defender of President Obama against “left” morons, but anyone who thinks the President of the United States – even this one – could possibly be right on “95% of the things (they) care about” obviously is either monumentally ignorant or doesn’t care about much. That’s structurally impossible. Unless you’re some “centrist” Village Idiot.

    That’s just fucking stupid. Perhaps intended as hyperbole, but not helpful. Not serious. Not credible. Even a little bit.

  234. 234
    slightly_peeved says:

    @LT:

    The division started when some Dems criticized Obama – and were, and have been since, treated automatically as acting in bad faith.

    John Cole criticizes Obama plenty, on the very subjects discussed here. So does Glenn Greenwald. JC isn’t treated as acting in bad faith, because of his wider commitment to the causes of progressivism, and because of his willingness to entertain other points of view. GG is treated as acting in bad faith because he doesn’t and he won’t.

  235. 235
    Bnad says:

    The progressive vote-withholder’s thinking:
    “If I don’t force them to take the right positions by withholding my vote, they’ll never do so.”
    That’s a fundamental misunderstanding. They want to take the right positions. They’re forced not to by the votes of people less informed / more ornery / more whatever than you. Withholding your vote lets those people force them more wrongward still. Your vote is your only force.

  236. 236
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Bruce S: Oh, you know me so well. The President and I only agree on 87.36% of things. I rounded up.
    Really, dude. How the hell would you possibly know what I agree and disagree with the President on if I didn’t tell you, so how can you realistically make a statement about what I believe and don’t believe?

  237. 237
    A Humble Lurker says:

    @Spatula:

    Hey, vagina-smear

    Charming as always.

  238. 238
    Matt McIrvin says:

    That’s a fundamental misunderstanding. They want to take the right positions.

    In the case of Obama, on this particular subject, I really don’t think that’s true. I think he genuinely believes the drone war in Pakistan is the least bad option for protecting the force in Afghanistan, and I think he genuinely believes his escalation and slow pullout in Afghanistan (which makes this level of force-protection necessary) was the best policy, not something he was forced into by the electorate.

    I strongly disagree with him on the second point and maybe on the first one as well. Now, I think it’s obviously stupid to help toss him out in favor of the guy who’s explicitly promised to reinstate torture in our prison camps and get John Bolton into his administration. But I don’t think a more progressive electorate would change Obama’s mind on this one.

  239. 239
    Spatula says:

    @A Humble Lurker:

    Charming as always.

    Let me summarize: Lurker is OK with ASSWIPE, but VAGINA SMEAR is beyond the pale.

    Some self awareness might temper that case of self righteousness you’re sporting.

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