Even the liberal Avigdor Lieberman

Is Romney going to criticize the Israeli Foreign Ministry now?

The trailer was uploaded to YouTube by an individual whose identity was in question. Some news organizations carried interviews with someone who said he was the filmmaker and identified himself as Sam Bacile, an Israeli-American real estate developer in California, but there was no immediate confirmation in official records of such a person. In one report, he identified himself as 52 and in another 56.

Yigal Palmor, the spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry, said in a telephoned statement: “Nobody knows who he is. He is totally unknown in filmmaking circles in Israel. And anything he did — he is not doing it for Israel, or with Israel, or through Israel in any way.” Mr. Palmor also called the filmmaker “a complete loose cannon and an unspeakable idiot.”

(h/t reader D)

Look, no one seriously questions the right of Sam Bacile, whoever he is, to make and distribute this film. No one seriously questions the fact that the people who attacked the American embassy are even bigger whack jobs than Bacile is.

But it’s just plain stupid to pretend that elected officials should be standing behind the message of the film in any way. People who actually have to govern understand this, both here and in Israel.

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225 replies
  1. 1
    Elizabelle says:

    “a complete loose cannon and an unspeakable idiot.”

    How hard was that?

  2. 2
    eric says:

    @Elizabelle: can we have just one palin-free thread….sheesh

  3. 3
    Violet says:

    Look, no one seriously questions the right of Sam Bacile, whoever he is, to make and distribute this film.

    Don’t question his right to do it, but I certainly question his judgment.

  4. 4
    Napoleon says:

    Sorry, don’t have links but people like Jeff Goldberg and some others have been digging into who this guy is and it appears that he is not even Jewish, but perhaps tied to Coptic Christians and evangelicals, which is suggested more obliquely in the NY Times piece.

  5. 5
    lamh35 says:

    James Fallows of The Atlantic on Romney:

    Mitt Romney Drops His 3 a.m. Phone Call

  6. 6
    Elizabelle says:

    @eric:

    Yeah, I hear you.

    Gonna be fascinating to watch the fundraising in the next week or two.

    And even more sad to see the diplomats’ bodies return to the U.S.

  7. 7
    aimai says:

    I question the right of a man pretending to be a Jewish-American film maker and making an incendiary film which will cost lives–Jewish, American, basically lots of lives, for purposes which are completely obscure but necessarily far from innocent:

    Klein told me that Bacile, the producer of the film, is not Israeli, and most likely not Jewish, as has been reported, and that the name is, in fact, a pseudonym. He said he did not know “Bacile”‘s real name. He said Bacile contacted him because he leads anti-Islam protests outside of mosques and schools, and because, he said, he is a Vietnam veteran and an expert on uncovering al Qaeda cells in California. “After 9/11 I went out to look for terror cells in California and found them, piece of cake. Sam found out about me. The Middle East Christian and Jewish communities trust me.”__
    Klein also tells Goldberg that he doubts “Bacile” is Jewish, and that the claims he is were a “disinformation campaign.” He added, about the people involved in the film, “Some are Copts but the vast majority are Evangelical.”

    I don’t even get why this is an issue of Free Speech. The US government didn’t sponsor this shit and doesn’t even have to condemn it. But its wrong that Bacile did it because it has ended up fomenting hatred and violence–which was its goal. Triumph of the Will wasn’t ok with me because FREE SPEECH Y’ALL. And neither was Birth of a Nation. Free Speech is a non sequiteur here.

    aimai

  8. 8
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    Harrumph!

  9. 9
    amk says:

    Look, no one seriously questions the right of Sam Bacile, whoever he is, to make and distribute this film.

    Oops, some crazy mofos did and you got yourself four dead americans. See? World, doesn’t revolve around murka.

  10. 10
    Violet says:

    Hey, Jim DeMint agrees with Romney.

    “The death of Ambassador Chris Stevens, American Foreign Service Officer Sean Smith and two other Americans is an outrage. Governor Romney is absolutely right, there is no justification for these deadly attacks and we should never apologize for American freedom. Islamic radicals will use any pretext to justify their hatred of America and our freedom.

    So he’s got that.

  11. 11
    hueyplong says:

    It seems like Romney is joining the rest of the GOP in understanding the First Amendment to mean that right wing nutjobs are entitled not only to free speech, but also to criticism-free speech.

    Sometimes the stupid just starts to wear me down.

  12. 12
    Amir Khalid says:

    What does that name, “Sam Bacile”, sound like when you say it quickly? I suspect we should use quote marks around the name.

  13. 13
    curiousleo says:

    @Napoleon: here’s a link to Goldberg’s blog there are several posts about trying to find out who the unspeakable idiot is.

  14. 14
    SatanicPanic says:

    @lamh35: This is up there with McCain suspending his campaign so he could go to DC and look like a dumbass.

  15. 15
    Tractarian says:

    Tweets from the Cairo embassy:

    Thank you for your thoughts and prayers.

    Of course we condemn breaches of our compound, we’re the ones actually living through this.

    Sorry, but neither breaches of our compound or angry messages will dissuade us from defending freedom of speech AND criticizing bigotry.

    “We’re the ones actually living through this.”

    A new campaign slogan?

  16. 16
    Elizabelle says:

    How strange.

    One sentence Wiki entry about the IT embassy staffer who died with Ambassador Stevens.

    Sean Smith (died September 11, 2012) was a piss failure who, in September 11, 2012, finally descended into hell.

    The intertubez.

  17. 17
    hueyplong says:

    For what it’s worth, Vin Weber (sp?) went on NPR and said he’s astounded that the story seems to be about Romney and not Obama’s foreign policy failures.

    I’m sorry to say I didn’t stick it out because it was getting kind of irksome.

  18. 18
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @aimai: Because people don’t understand the first amendment, and are so far removed from its creation that they do not understand why a government has to be restrained. When I say “shut up” to someone other than my children, I don’t have any means of enforcing it. When the government says “shut up” on the other hand, it can do all sorts of things to make you shut up, which is why it has to be restrained.

    “Good guys don’t have rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many.”

  19. 19
    dedc79 says:

    I think a lot of these attacks are based on (among other things) a fundamental misunderstanding of how governance works in America. You’ve got people in Libya and/or Egypt who have been living under dictatorship for decades. In libya, if a program appeared on tv there was a good chance the govt either put it there or ok’d its being broadcast. So when a nutjob fundamentalist hears about some american movie, he may well think that things work similarly in America, and the movie was made with the approval of the american government. None of this is meant to explain away or excuse what happened, which was absolutely heinous.

  20. 20
    Elizabelle says:

    Now appears two of the dead are U.S. Marines?

  21. 21
    KatinPhilly says:

    That doesn’t for one second prove that Netanyahu and his supporters both in Israel in the US are not happy with the heinous attacks. I remember certain Israeli leaders all smug and almost gleeful when 9/11 happened.

  22. 22
    LGRooney says:

    So, he may be some Evangelical nut bag hoping to a) bring down Obama and b) start the Apocalypse?

    He’s like the International Relations version of Charles Manson.

  23. 23
    curiousleo says:

    @Tractarian:

    We’re the ones actually living through this

    dang. that’s going to smart.

    (also, it could be a new ‘that’s a clown question bro’ response.)

  24. 24
    Carl Nyberg says:

    Isn’t fomenting anti-Muslim and anti-Arab bigotry pretty standard in Israeli propaganda?

    I wouldn’t particularly take the word of Israeli pols or the Israeli government.

    But it is amusing that the Israeli Right is undercutting Romney on this issue.

    “Welcome to the Big League, Mr. Romney. We trust your stay will be enjoyable but short.”

  25. 25
    dmsilev says:

    @Elizabelle: Looks like some WIkipedia editor fixed that bit of assholery.

  26. 26
    Applejinx says:

    @Elizabelle: He was a Goon- that’s probably affectionate and something of which he’d have approved/laughed at.

  27. 27
    beltane says:

    @Amir Khalid:I.P. Daily would have been too obvious?

  28. 28
    aimai says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    Yes, but even condemning particular speech acts isn’t the same as repressing free speech. Saying, for instance, that the film made by a person who is not even clearly of American citizenship (btw) is not, in fact, representative of the US government or other American citizens is NOT REPRESSING SPEECH. Its just not.

    aimai

  29. 29
    dedc79 says:

    @KatinPhilly: what the hell are you talking about?

  30. 30
    Elizabelle says:

    @Applejinx:

    I was wondering if it was tribute, of a sort, from gamers.

    And has been edited out, as dmsilev informs.

  31. 31
    Linda Featheringill says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Hi, Amir. I agree. Sam Bacile is the new nym for “too stupid to be alive.”

  32. 32
    Raven says:

    Wouldn’t seem to matter if they were or not, they were Americans in service to their country.

  33. 33
    Redshift says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): And they remain sadly incapable of logic. If you think freedom of speech means I’m not allowed to tell you to shut up, why are you telling me to shut up about it?

  34. 34
    Punchy says:

    For what it’s worth, Vin Weber (sp?) went on NPR and said he’s astounded that the story seems to be about Romney and not Obama’s foreign policy failures.

    Heh. This is akin to me running to the MSM with a breathless story of how I was molested by Mitt, then being surprised that the story is about my credibility and not about some 0% chance that I was molested.

    Repubs really are living in a closed off world. Impervious to facts and reality.

  35. 35
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    he said, he is a Vietnam veteran and an expert on uncovering al Qaeda cells in California

    Look to Fresno.

    Home of Free Republic.

    This person is “an expert at uncovering al Qaeda cells”?

    Riiiiight. Probably at the Governor’s Mansion, the Warner Brothers back lot, and in Disneyland.

  36. 36
  37. 37
    Princess says:

    Sam Bacile doesn’t even seem to exist. Here’s a link:

  38. 38
    Raven says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Yea shit, we had all kinds of training about Al Qaeda at Ft Campbell in 66.

  39. 39
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @aimai: Previous threads on the topic led to some commenters suggesting that Cole, for one, opposed free speech based on objecting to this guy’s “work”. I am guessing that the free speech rights remark by DougJ was to forstall similar comments and the subsequent derailment of the thread.

  40. 40
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Linda Featheringill:
    He’s a “property developer” whose name can’t be found in public records. A writer/director who made a $5 million film, but is unheard of in American and Israeli filmmaking circles and unknown to IMDB. I tells ya, he’s an international man of mystery!

    ::Gasp!:: OMG! He’s Austin Powers!

  41. 41
    Linda Featheringill says:

    It looks to me like somebody tried to start a war or something. I have no evidence as to where this idea started but right now it looks like some RW Americans were involved and they cooperated with violent forces in other countries. If this is the case, I think they should spend the rest of their lives in federal prisons, explaining just what the hell they were trying to do.

  42. 42
    smintheus says:

    Romney’s decision to politicize a horrific disaster and attack the administration in the middle of a crisis, suggesting that America is divided in how to respond to this violence, is unprincipled, self-serving, conniving, and reckless regarding other people’s welfare.

    And yet there were many people who refused to believe the accounts of his business decisions at Bain because they implied that Romney would promote his own interests without regard for the damage he was doing to people and institutions he controlled.

  43. 43
    jayjaybear says:

    Wasn’t the IT guy who was killed connected to Anonymous somehow? If so, “Sam Bacile” isn’t going to be an unbroken alias for long…

  44. 44

    @Napoleon:
    I’ve been digging, too. No luck. But there’s no record of any real estate agent (or film director) named “Sam Bacile” anywhere.

    There’s a Sam Klein of California (with, oddly enough, ties to the Coptics) who appears the likely suspect (h/t Max Blumenthal on twitter, can’t link here).

  45. 45
    smintheus says:

    Romney’s decision to politicize a horrific disaster and attack the administration in the middle of a crisis, suggesting that America is divided in how to respond to this violence, is unprincipled, self-serving, conniving, and reckless regarding other people’s welfare.

    And yet there were many people who refused to believe the accounts of his business decisions at Bain because they implied that Romney would promote his own interests without regard for the damage he was doing to people and institutions he controlled.

  46. 46
    HRA says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    It sounds like “some imbecile”.

  47. 47
    HRA says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    It sounds like “some imbecile”.

  48. 48
    smintheus says:

    Romney’s decision to politicize a horrific disaster and attack the administration in the middle of a crisis, suggesting that America is divided in how to respond to this violence, is unprincipled, self-serving, conniving, and reckless regarding other people’s welfare.

    And yet there were many people who refused to believe the accounts of his business decisions at Bain because they implied that Romney would promote his own interests without regard for the damage he was doing to people and institutions he controlled.

  49. 49
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Linda Featheringill:
    He’s a “property developer” whose name can’t be found in public records. A writer/director who made a $5 million film, but is unheard of in American and Israeli filmmaking circles and unknown to IMDB. I tells ya, he’s an international man of mystery!

    ::Gasp!:: OMG! He’s Austin Powers!

  50. 50
    Calouste says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    He also said he was 52, which would make him 15 when the last American soldiers left Vietnam.

  51. 51

    FYWP eated my comment, but I see others have brought up Sam Klein so no loss.

    “Sam Bacile” spells out “Basic Male”, BTW.

  52. 52
    Mudge says:

    Apparently Pam Geller held an anti-Islam conference in NYC yesterday. John Bolton and Lars Vilks, a Swedish artist who painted Mohammed as a dog, were there. I wonder if Mitt’s advisors came from that conference foaming from the mouth and gave their advice last night..

    http://thecritical-post.com/bl.....cpchicago/

  53. 53
    Roger Moore says:

    @Linda Featheringill:

    Sam Bacile is the new nym for “too stupid to be alive.” Alan Smithee

    FTFY.

  54. 54
    scav says:

    @HRA: Some Debacle too. Running it through an anagram program, too many to go through at this exact moment. Amen Gibes, Mean Gibes, Big Enemas, Begin As Me, Same Begin, I Be Gas Men, nothing too obvious but I’m not good at these games.

  55. 55
    FormerSwingVoter says:

    OT, but in Libya right now there’s apparently a peace protest thing denouncing the attacks:

    https://twitter.com/2011feb17/status/245918324184199169/photo/1

  56. 56
    psycholinguist says:

    So, I watched the Romney press thing, and I read the two statements issued by the embassy. I don’t see the word apology, I see the word condemnation. Why in the world is he allowed to call that an apology, over and over and over again, without any of these press idiots asking him where, precisely, the apology occurred? I would really love to hear him explain, exactly, how condemning the film as intolerant equals an apology.

  57. 57
    Roger Moore says:

    @psycholinguist:

    Why in the world is he allowed to call that an apology, over and over and over again, without any of these press idiots asking him where, precisely, the apology occurred?

    IOKIYAR. SATSQ.

  58. 58
    MikeJ says:

    @Redshift: BElafon didn’t say you couldn’t tell the idiot “film maker” to shut up, he said the government shouldn’t go around telling people to shut up. Which is absolutely right.

    That doesn’t mean the government shouldn’t forcefully state that he’s an idiot, and they’ve already done so.

  59. 59
    Hungry Joe says:

    @KatinPhilly: [Block quote, which I can’t get to work] That doesn’t for one second prove that Netanyahu and his supporters both in Israel in the US are not happy with the heinous attacks. I remember certain Israeli leaders all smug and almost gleeful when 9/11 happened. [End block quote]

    Excuse me? What? Is there any evidence at all that Netanyahu and his supporters both in Israel and the US are happy with the heinous attacks? And which “certain” Israeli leaders were “all smug and almost gleeful” about 9/11? I somehow missed that.

    In short, what the sam hill are you talking about? Got anything to back it up?

    I’m no Netanyahu fan, but sheesh.

  60. 60
    Applejinx says:

    @jayjaybear: Yeah, you could almost say he’d have to be an ImBecile to think he could evade detectio…

    woopsy.

    (hat tip to HRA!)

  61. 61
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    @psycholinguist:

    Why in the world is he allowed to call that an apology, over and over and over again, without any of these press idiots asking him where, precisely, the apology occurred? I would really love to hear him explain, exactly, how condemning the film as intolerant equals an apology.

    __
    Two reasons:
    1. In the lexicon of the Right, any communication from America to the rest of the world that doesn’t boil down to some variant of “Kneel before Zod” is an apology. Unless of course it involves a sainted Republican President pulling the Marines out of Lebannon right after having their barracks bombed, or sending a cake to Iran, etc., etc., in which case whatevers [waves hand dismissively].
    2. The press idiots are useful idiots.

  62. 62

    @Amir Khalid:

    OMG! He’s Austin Powers!

    I realize you’re joking, but not even that: An “Austin Powers” alias would at least have a well-planted backstory going back more than five days. It’s the first thing people check, especially now that anybody can.

    This guy? Nothing.

  63. 63
    Jewish Steel says:

    He is still, still playing to his base, is Romney. 60 days out. Bad sign.

  64. 64
    Dennis SGMM says:

    @Raven:
    Me neither and I was a couple of years after you. AQ is the new Commies for the MIC and the Republicans – both of which need an external enemy to survive.

  65. 65
    Violet says:

    Someone linked to Jeffrey Goldberg’s blog and I just clicked over there. He’s got a screenshot from this movie. I didn’t know there were actors portraying the Prophet Mohammad and other historical figures. Those actors, especially the one playing Mohammad, have to be worried about their lives and safety.

  66. 66
    Linda Featheringill says:

    @Raven:

    The we’re-sorry demonstration:

    That is sweet. I never for one moment thought that the people of Libya were guilty of this attack. But the gesture is touching, anyway.

  67. 67
    Reklam says:

    Did OFA hire someone to plant the idea in Mitt Romney’s head that his father really wants him to NOT be president on the long-haul flight to the London Olympics?
    Seriously

  68. 68
    Roy G. says:

    “Sam Bacile” is a stalking horse for some larger interests. Cui bono?

  69. 69
    Roy G. says:

    “Sam Bacile” is a stalking horse for some larger interests. Cui bono?

  70. 70
    Violet says:

    @Reklam: The un-Manchurian candidate?

  71. 71
    dedc79 says:

    @Hungry Joe: I posed the same question earlier in the thread, but no response.

  72. 72
    LD50 says:

    @Jewish Steel:
    Precisely. It’s like he’s stuck in last winter, when his #1 imperative was proving he could pander to the 27%-er crazies harder than Bachmann or Santorum. He can’t turn it off. There are millions of Americans who dug his comments, but they’re people who were never going to vote Obama in a million years anyway.

    He still thinks “stroke the base harder and harder til Election Day” is the way to win.

  73. 73
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Reklam:
    Let’s see. Did Leonardo DiCaprio sit next to him on that flight?

  74. 74
    jimmiraybob says:

    I just think that at times like this we need to take a moment to remember and reflect upon M. Romney’s courageous defensive tactics during the battle of Nom Paris during the big one, Vietnam, back in seven and aught. If not for his selfless and disciplined bicycle actions at the battle of Frog Legs and Caviar Hill*, our whole far-western war strategy would have been in shambles.

    * I believe that Clint Eastward did the movie.

    [as an aside, what a dick]

  75. 75
    max says:

    @dedc79: I think a lot of these attacks are based on (among other things) a fundamental misunderstanding of how governance works in America. You’ve got people in Libya and/or Egypt who have been living under dictatorship for decades. In libya, if a program appeared on tv there was a good chance the govt either put it there or ok’d its being broadcast. So when a nutjob fundamentalist hears about some american movie

    They freak out. Yes. This wouldn’t be any different than evangelical Christians freaking out if some foreigner made a really noxious movie about how evil Christ was. And what appears to have happened is the local fundie guy got a peaceful demo together and some locals boys decided to get noxious. No one appears to have been hurt. BFD. The usual suspects will demand we yell ‘Kneel before Zod’ (thanks, ThatLeftTurnInABQ!) and that’s that.

    This thing in Libya is completely a different thing entirely. It seems fairly clear they expected something to happen in Egypt, so they decided to hop on the bandwagon, but it appears to me that they had actually planned out some kind of major assault on the local consulate in advance.

    That’s something else entirely from some of the local kids acting stupid. Given that they were toting AK’s and RPG’s and it sounds like they had a separate ambush planned for the ambassador, well. I want to say it smells like Al-Qaeda but it doesn’t. It smells like *Taliban* tactics, since this is the sort of fun and hijinks they get up to in Aghanistan.

    The fact that the attackers were flashing V-for-victory signs is very very very curious. Particularly since we have no one claiming credit.

    It also appears that no one expected any of this in Benghazi, and Libyan security on hand acted to protect the consulate (and died doing do). So this is not good. Someone is playing games and it’s got not a damn thing to do with the Libyan revolution per se, except that there’s no Qaddafi around to violently suppress everyone.

    It might be some local militia carrying it out, but I want to know who the moving hand is behind them.

    max
    [‘Wait for more smoke to clear.’]

  76. 76
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    @LD50:

    He can’t turn it off.

    __
    Most likely because it isn’t really pandering, it is more like paying blackmail. And the old wisdom regarding that is not to start because once you start paying the blackmailer, how do you stop?

  77. 77
    Reklam says:

    @Violet: This is how conspiracy theories begin. For some it is hard to believe people, especially ‘jayb creayators’, can be this incompetent.

    Edit: I don’t mean you. I mean me. I spent a couple minutes thinking of JEB’16 and Barbara Bush Sr. in the mother role of Manchurian Candidate before realizing I shouldn’t waste my pretty mind on it.

  78. 78
    dmsilev says:

    #RomneyFlail continues:

    Romney Camp’s New Explanation Of Libya Reaction: W.H. Actions Prove We’re Right
    __
    The Romney campaign continues to defend its increasingly isolated response to the Libya consulate attack, claiming that the White House implicitly acknowledged its criticism was accurate by disavowing an earlier statement from the U.S. embassy in Egypt.
    __
    “If Gov. Romney ‘jumped the gun’ why were White House officials also distancing themselves from the statement?” Romney spokeswoman Andrea Saul said in a statement. “Why didn’t President Obama take any questions from the press this morning to explain?”

    Never back down! Never retreat! Wolverines!

    I don’t know why conservatives don’t like Romney; his campaign acts like it’s being run by a set of conservative bloggers.

  79. 79
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Linda Featheringill:I can’t read Arabic, but it should say something like “Sorry. We’ve got dicks over here, and you’ve got dicks over there. It’s what ties us together, it’s the very source of our common humanity — we’re all plagued with assholes.”

  80. 80
    Schlemizel says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:
    No I’m sure he is a Viet Nam Vet,
    He was with the Green Berets,
    Special Unit Battalions…
    Commando Airborne Tactics…
    Specialist Tactics Unit Battalion.
    Yeah, it was real hush hush
    he was Agent Orange,
    Special Agent Orange, that was him.

  81. 81
    Linda Featheringill says:

    @Roy G.: #68

    Who benefits?

    Dunno. Was the attempt successful? We might have a hard time determining who would benefit from such actions unless we know what the desired outcome was.

    All logic aside, I feel that someone tried to do something evil and wasn’t really successful. Fortunately.

  82. 82
  83. 83
    Applejinx says:

    @Roy G.: Specifically, since ‘ImBecile’ is a complete troll and fake name…

    Who exactly paid for the making of a movie intended specifically to troll Muslims in the middle east into attacking and KILLING American diplomats, for political gain?

    This casts a really ugly light on Romney’s determination to stick by his planned/hastily-arrived-at angle, and the extreme look of smugness he’s been photographed wearing.

    I’d really like to know who did this and why. It looks as though in some ways it succeeded beyond their wildest hopes in that American diplomats were killed. It looks like Romney was very quick to make the attack on an expected ‘Obama predictably apologizes and tries to make peace’, like Romney’s reaction was planned and no sort of panic at all.

    That’s a really ugly accusation, but it looks like Romney and his backers are really ugly people.

  84. 84
    Culture of Truth says:

    Could someone post a link of Romney standing up for the Dixie Chicks?

    Oh wait, he didn’t? Never mind.

  85. 85
    Linda Featheringill says:

    @Applejinx:

    Oh, my. I think Romney is an idiot but I never suspected that he was in on the game.

    Oh, that would be bad.

    But that doesn’t mean I think you’re wrong.

  86. 86
    Dennis SGMM says:

    @Roy G.:
    Who is a desperate person acting as the front man of a desperate organization with rich backers?

    Mountain Meadows, baby.

  87. 87
    WarMunchkin says:

    @mechwarrior online: Oh god, kill me now. I cannot believe he said that.

  88. 88
    LD50 says:

    I wonder how many Republicans are quietly thinking to themselves this afternoon, “we COULD have picked Huntsman, we COULD have picked Huntsman…”

  89. 89
  90. 90
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @LD50: Thirteen, fourteen tops.

    Though he speak with the mouths of Reagans etc,, etc., Huntsman has been irretrievably tainted by working for the Dark Side in Beijing

  91. 91
    Schlemizel says:

    @Linda Featheringill:
    No, if they had known in advance they could have done a marginally competent job of setting themselves up before hand and of responding in the aftermath. They didn’t set themselves up to be right ahead of time and they sure as hell botched the response (please read the Fallows piece linked above).

    Even an incompetent like Willard could not have done this badly if he had a plan. What he has shown is he is totally unprepared to be POTUS.

  92. 92
    JPL says:

    My local CBS station just covered Mitt Romney. They gave the timeline and then mentioned that the President spoke with CBS today for an upcoming 60 minutes. The President in response to Romney’s comment said “He has a tendency to shoot first and aim later and as President you can’t do that.” He was then asked whether or it was irresponsible and the President said he would let the American people decide.

    I’ll try to find a link

  93. 93
    Schlemizel says:

    @LD50:
    Almost none. But there are probably plenty thinking “We could have picked Santorum”

    These people are delusional but their delusions all add up in the wrong direction – away from sanity not towards it

  94. 94
    Schlemizel says:

    @LD50:
    Almost none. But there are probably plenty thinking “We could have picked Santorum”

    These people are delusional but their delusions all add up in the wrong direction – away from sanity not towards it

  95. 95
    The Moar You Know says:

    @mechwarrior online: Leave it to John Kyl to distill every possible hateful Republican response to this into two sentences. I really gotta give him props for slagging a bunch of Americans for desperately trying to calm down a situation in which they had every reason to expect that they were about to be murdered.

  96. 96
    Culture of Truth says:

    Sam Bacile 2016 !!!

    “Gentlement, we may have found our perfect candidate…”

  97. 97
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @mechwarrior online:

    The scary thing is, we’re not even close yet to 11 on the crazy dial with Kyl. He’s like a 6 or a 7, tops.

  98. 98

    It looks like the movie is not even a real movie.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosieg.....-be-a-real

  99. 99
    eric says:

    @Culture of Truth: he can run with Captain Tuttle as his VP.

  100. 100
    lamh35 says:

    Obama On Romney’s Libya Response: ‘Shoot First And Aim Later’

    President Obama pushed back against Mitt Romney’s accusation that his administration mishandled its response to the Libya crisis…
    “There’s a broader lesson to be learned here: Governor Romney seems to have a tendency to shoot first and aim later and as president one of the things I’ve learned is you can’t do that,” Obama told CBS News on Wednesday.”It’s important for you to make sure that the statements that you make are backed up by the facts and that you’ve thought through the ramifications before you make them.”

  101. 101
    MikeJ says:

    If we wait a week Romney will say that Obama is handling the situation in exactly the manner Romney said he should have.

  102. 102
    👽 Martin says:

    Man, the Villagers are just destroying Romney. “Does the Romney campaign have no respect for the dead?” “We thought the campaign couldn’t sink any lower after the birther nonsense” And everyone is noting the parallels to McCain suspending his campaign.

    I think the fun of ‘Both Sides Do It’ may have run its course. We might be onto Mocking Romney for Ratings now.

    This feels like an irreversible turn, at least for the punditry. I think it’s going to be a lot harder for Romney to be extended the benefit of the doubt on things.

  103. 103
    tamied says:

    @lamh35: Thank FSM that he’s our president. I just hope we can keep him.

  104. 104
    mechwarrior online says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Oh I know, I’m just baffled that they’d bother to tie rape into this mess.

  105. 105
    Applejinx says:

    @Linda Featheringill: If there was coordination with the Romney campaign, the answer to your question is this:

    The desired outcome was an attack on American diplomatic outposts in hopes of provoking a conciliatory response from Obama, which would then be spun as ‘making apologies for America’, an already existing Republican talking point.

    Two possibilities:
    1: Romney campaign had only tangential awareness of this massive trolling of Muslims, a tip-off that it was going to be done, and thus prepared their own political attack. Romney’s smugness in this interpretation is down to his basic personality and belief that doubling down would carry the day.

    2: read the comment from @max. “The fact that the attackers were flashing V-for-victory signs is very very very curious. Particularly since we have no one claiming credit.” If this was a false flag attack, it is both feasible for a political operator with a LOT of money to get together, and casts a really alarming light on Romney’s smugness and determination to stick to his political angle. In this scenario, Romney has to stick with the all-out attack and his talking points at all costs, no matter who in the traditional Republican party objects, because he’s wildly off the reservation (or some of his backers are and he’s complicit). If this is the one, you’ll see more establishment Republicans breaking ranks, and the Romney people will get really shrill about it. If Romney backs down it’s some indication that he’s not complicit- there’s almost no legitimate reason for him not to back down in some way.

    An operation of this nature would involve on one hand a bullshit antiMuslim movie made by total ciphers and faceless money sources, but with a budget big enough to appear legit on first glance, and on the other hand more money to hire off a bunch of gunmen in the Middle East under cover of the angry mob that can be trusted fairly well to go along with the provocation.

    You can be complicit in a thing like this without being the ringleader or in control of all aspects of it- my question is to what extent is Mitt Romney playing along with something he expected to happen or was led to believe would happen, using a tactic that he believes is sure to work.

    This is the October Surprise, a month early.

  106. 106
    KG says:

    @LD50: I’ve been saying that since the first debates when I realized Huntsman had no chance. But I’m clearly a RINO at this point, so it means next to nothing.

  107. 107
    Culture of Truth says:

    @eric: He was the best damn OD they ever had!

  108. 108
    Seth Owen says:

    If it turns out this “Sam Bacile” character isn’t even Jewish, won’t this qualify as a “twofer” — anti-Muslim AND anti Semitic (Blaming the Jews)?

    Kind of reminds me of those occasional fake crimes that are always blamed on some “black guy.”

    There should be some real digging into this for possible criminal conduct.

  109. 109
    MikeJ says:

    @Applejinx: Please stop with the dumb ass conspiracy theories. Leave that shit to the Freepers.

  110. 110
    trollhattan says:

    Chill, homies, Willard’s “got this.”

    http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-pro.....1342200689

  111. 111
    dmsilev says:

    @lamh35:Obama:

    It’s important for you to make sure that the statements that you make are backed up by the facts and that you’ve thought through the ramifications before you make them.”

    The President then paused to pull his stiletto out of Romney’s heart.

  112. 112
    Dennis SGMM says:

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    It looks like the movie is not even a real movie.

    Because the trailer for that thing resulted in deaths, I would hope that the FBI is working to find out who actually made it and that information will become public knowledge.

  113. 113
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @tamied: Rape, but not taxes…. that is odd.

  114. 114
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @jayjaybear:

    Wasn’t the IT guy who was killed connected to Anonymous somehow? If so, “Sam Bacile” isn’t going to be an unbroken alias for long…

    Part of the Goonswarm from EVE Online, which is just as bad for Sammy’s chances of staying hidden.

  115. 115
    Applejinx says:

    Also, that movie is fairly expensive but poorly produced greenscreen. There’s no way any of it was location shooting. I don’t think there’s any actual movie at all- the whole thing is a dirty trick from the word go. There is no ‘anti muslim filmmaker in secrecy’. There is no movie.

  116. 116
    Emma says:

    @mechwarrior online: Jesus Christ on a Harley. They really, really can’t think beyond the next second. Way to go, Senator. Considering your party’s problems with women that’s one metaphor that should have stayed behind your teeth.

  117. 117
    lamh35 says:

    Obama to CBS News, when asked if Romney’s remarks were irresponsible: “I’ll let the American people judge that.

  118. 118
    dmsilev says:

    @👽 Martin:

    Man, the Villagers are just destroying Romney. “Does the Romney campaign have no respect for the dead?” “We thought the campaign couldn’t sink any lower after the birther nonsense” And everyone is noting the parallels to McCain suspending his campaign.

    Remember, the Villagers fetishize ‘civility’. By getting ugly partisan politics all over the still-warm bodies of American diplomats, Mitt committed a grave sin against civility.

  119. 119
    👽 Martin says:

    And Larison piles on.

    Romney has made many foreign policy blunders before now, but this is the only one that has provoked such swift, harsh, and near-unanimous criticism. The most incredible part is that all of this has been self-inflicted. Romney and his campaign volunteered for this by inserting themselves into the story. If it were simply the other campaign or Democratic partisans that were hammering Romney on this, it wouldn’t be any different from previous mistakes, but the backlash hasn’t been limited to his partisan foes. The dishonesty of the original Romney statement and the gall of his press conference this morning have combined to create serious doubts about his judgment and to confirm the impression that there are no limits to his opportunism.

    Keep digging Willard.

  120. 120
    jl says:

    @dmsilev: Also embarrassed them by forcing them to call BS on lies that the public would care about and remember. They do not like incivility and they do not like being put on the spot in public.

    Now looks like Mitt’s incoherent flip flopping will continue (Edit: just read that Mitt condemned the Bacile film! He cannot even take his own advice for three or four hours?), on something the public will want to follow and make sense of. So the corporate hack media celebs will have sort through that in public.

    Three strikes right there. Bad blood arisin’.

  121. 121
    Elizabelle says:

    Getting past the distaste for Romney and Preibus antics and settling into real grief for the loss of Ambassador Stevens, Sean Smith (father of “2 young children”), and two other Americans dead to this madness.

    All too young, too talented, and too gone before their times.

  122. 122
    KG says:

    @lamh35: I’m going to go with an analogy for a game that has recently been ruled a game of skill rather than a game of chance by a judge…

    Obama strikes me as a cerebral player, the type who thinks out his moves and considers the type of hands that his opponents might have before making a move. Very calculated and what most players would call the right way to play.

    Romney strikes me as the maniac, the type who thinks he can just bet big and make everyone go away, who looks at a hand and sees a winner no matter what the odds actually are. Seven-duece offsuit? Raise! Gut shot straight draw? Raise! Bottom pair with no kicker? Raise! Somebody raised behind me? Re-raise! It’s a strategy that can work, but only if you’re very smart about it and have a big bankroll – usually though, you end up being a donkey.

    Maniac-donkeys do well in the short term, they get lucky, flop two pair against an overpair, chase an idiot flush draw and make two pair instead. But eventually the donkey gets stuck in the mud, they run out of luck and piss away all their chips.

    Romney is in the middle of an epic melt-down. He’s not quite on tilt, but his plays aren’t working, and it’s only a matter of time until he is tilting.

  123. 123
    kindness says:

    I have to say this morning, most sites where rightwingnutz go that I do too (NPR, Selected WaPo writers) the righties were quiet and seemed to understand the enormity of Mitt’s fail. But as the day has progressed, I see the frantic mail-lists must have had their effect as now I’m seeing hoards of morons all saying the same thing which is essentially Mitt is right! Obama is fail (Kenyan, Muslim, evil, etc).

    I find this so disheartening. It pains me that so many Americans (or so few Americans and their sock puppets) exist here.

    When Obama wins come 11/7, we all better be careful where we are. There are bound to be wackos out there looking for vengence and headlines.

  124. 124
    wrb says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    ‘sa M. Bacil

  125. 125
    Waldo says:

    @Jewish Steel: That’s what I’ve been thinking — he can’t pivot to the center (or shake the Etch-a-Sketch) because he’s still shoring up support from the rabid right. He’s toast.

  126. 126

    From Twitter just now

    Nate Silver ‏@fivethirtyeight It seems like we can’t even rule out the possibility that the people behind the attacks were responsible for the “film”

  127. 127
    Shawn in ShowMe says:

    If this was a false flag attack, it is both feasible for a political operator with a LOT of money to get together,

    When you have the kind of money that Adelson or the Koch brothers do, financing small-scale international murder is child’s play. They also have the money to cover up their tracks so even if they are responsible, we’ll never know. But one thing’s for sure, this episode doesn’t pass the smell test. It reeks of conspiracy.

  128. 128
    Elizabelle says:

    Reuters item, in its entirety:

    General Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the U.S. military’s Joint Chiefs of Staff, spoke with Pastor Terry Jones by phone on Wednesday and asked him to withdraw his support for a film whose portrayal of the Prophet Mohammad has sparked violent protests – including one that ended with the death of America’s envoy to Libya. “In the brief call, Gen. Dempsey expressed his concerns over the nature of the film, the tensions it will inflame and the violence it will cause,” Dempsey’s spokesman, Colonel Dave Lapan, told Reuters. “He asked Mr. Jones to consider withdrawing his support for the film.”
    __
    U.S. military officials are concerned that the film could inflame tensions in Afghanistan, where 74,000 U.S. troops are fighting. The Taliban earlier on Wednesday called on Afghans to prepare for a fight against Americans and urged insurgents to “take revenge” on U.S. soldiers over the film.

  129. 129
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @KG:

    Seven-duece offsuit? Raise!Tax Cut! Gut shot straight draw? Raise!Tax Cut! Bottom pair with no kicker? Raise!Tax Cut! Somebody raised behind me? Re-raise!Tax Cut!

    FTFY

  130. 130
    Applejinx says:

    @MikeJ: I stand by some form of my dumb-ass conspiracy theory. Remember the sort of people we’re dealing with, the fact that their primary resource is money and the ability to spend it on advertisements and video productions, and the reality that in places like these Middle Eastern countries you can buy whatever you want for the other end of the operation.

    Show me the real movie, if this wasn’t an elaborate hoax. Show me why you’d spend this kind of money on a hoax (and not a movie) if not to execute on a plan.

    Tell me why Mitt Romney is so smug about all this and full of smiles.

  131. 131
    bmwash374 says:

    @Schlemizel: Trading Places! ROTFLMAO!!!

  132. 132
    👽 Martin says:

    @Dennis SGMM: I’m skeptical. I think the video was just an excuse for a fringe group to do something on 9/11. I don’t think they generally give a shit, except to try and sucker some rubes into making their protests a bit larger.

  133. 133
    Applejinx says:

    @jl: Did he now? To what extent does it read that he’s trying to distance himself from the film itself? On what grounds? This whole business stinks on ice.

    The whole thing is SOMEBODY’S idea of an October Surprise. There’s no fucking film. Terry Jones probably has no idea what he’s ‘endorsed’ and just reacted predictably when asked to endorse an ‘anti-muslim’ film.

    @KG: I think somebody told Romney, “We’re going to cheat. It’s going to work. Ask no questions, and when the time comes, say this.”

  134. 134
    KG says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): well, that’s what the analogy was going for

  135. 135
    Amir Khalid says:

    The Washington Post has posted an editorial basically saying “Shame on you, Mitt Romney.”

    Jennifer Rubin dissents:

    If Romney wanted to sound more presidential than the president, he succeeded.

  136. 136
    Eric S says:

    @LD50:
    “He still thinks “stroke the base harder and harder til Election Day” is the way to win.”

    I believe this is a conscious strategy on RMoney’s part. I think he’s going for the win by creating an enthusiasm gap. Most self described independents aren’t. Recent presidential elections indicate the electorate is pretty closely split 50/50. If he can get more of his half to show up than Obama can he can with the election.

    It may not be a winning strategy in the end but that’s what I see going on.

  137. 137
    wrb says:

    @Applejinx:

    If it was planned for the benefit of Mitt and/or Israel someone’s got to be really pissed at Mitt for fumbling the handoff.

  138. 138
    PreservedKillick says:

    @KG:

    Romney strikes me as the maniac,

    No, Romney has been living in a world of yes-people. He’s never had anyone truly oppose him or call him on his bullshit. What we are seeing amounts to his political glass jaw; what he’s doing makes perfect sense to him – and I’m sure he fully expects the little people to just play along. They always have, right?

    Hubris.

    Couple this with the winger echo-chamber, a world in which Obama is truly stupid, in which Obama has exploded government size and power, in which the deficit is Obama’s fault, in short a world that is basically a wild fantasy and you have a really interesting dynamic.

    He won’t just melt down, he’ll explode.

    If I were the republican leadership, I’d be seriously working to rein him in – and I’d think long and hard about ditching him and shoring up my down-ticket races.

    The smirk pic alone should convince them that it’s time.

    Forget winning. It’s time to contain the collateral damage.

  139. 139
    jl says:

    @Applejinx: Daily Kos has the statement. Go look at statement there in its running coverage today.

    I didn’t type anything that implied it was a sincere condemnation.

  140. 140

    A Romney official acknowledges to CNN the ambassador’s death was not known when the candidate’s statement was released.

    In other words he did exactly as POTUS said, he shot first and aimed later. Game, set, match.

  141. 141
    FormerSwingVoter says:

    @Dennis SGMM:

    Because the trailer for that thing resulted in deaths, I would hope that the FBI is working to find out who actually made it and that information will become public knowledge.

    The worst part is that the Arabic-subtitled version was posted by the original guy. Yeah. He wasn’t getting enough attention for it, so he directly targeted the people that would be most offended by it.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/.....70150.html

    A trailer of the film was first posted on YouTube by a user called “sam bacile” in July 2012, and has received about 11,000 views to date.
    The trailer began to get much more attention in September. On September 4, the same user posted a version dubbed in Arabic, which has garnered more than 70,000 views.

  142. 142
    4tehlulz says:

    Why is this whole film business reminding me of “The Producers”?

  143. 143
    Culture of Truth says:

    @dmsilev: Remember when Obama swatted that fly?

  144. 144
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Applejinx:

    Right now, the political effect is to cause entire swaths of the establishment, both media and political, to distance themselves from Rmoney.

    This cannot be the effect that Rmoney backers were expecting.

    It may be that this was an attempt to create a foreign policy crisis, but Rmoney is not competent enough to take the ball he’s been handed. He’s fumbled it, badly, and furthermore, he’s fucked up the tackle of the guy who recovered the fumble, who is now doing a cha cha into the endzone.

  145. 145
    Culture of Truth says:

    Remember, the Villagers fetishize ‘civility’.

    That’s very true. They live there, work, hang out together, while Presidents come and go.

  146. 146
  147. 147
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @KG: It just sounded funny to me having him say it during the game. I also imagine David Koch saying “Damn it, who forgot to change his software?”

  148. 148
    rlrr says:

    @Waldo:

    I hear a fat lady singing…

  149. 149
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @4tehlulz:

    That is a pretty good assessment of what the hell is going on here.

  150. 150
    Suffern ACE says:

    @hueyplong: Romney – fucked by trying to win the news cycle through making a statement before anyone else. So Weber – its about Romney because he wanted it be about him. Next…

  151. 151
    Ann Rynd says:

    @Culture of Truth: Didn’t swat. Caught.

    BTW: Jennifer Rubin, my girl, the lunatic said:

    “If Romney wanted to sound more presidential than the president, he succeeded.”

  152. 152
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    @👽 Martin:

    And Larison piles on.

    __
    It isn’t just even the liberal Daniel Larison, either. At TAC (theamericanconservative) it is Beat-Romney-like-rented-mule day today.

    Scott Gallupo:
    The First Unmistakable Sign of Panic from the Romney Campaign

    And then there’s Buzzfeed’s Ben Smith:
    “Bungle..utter disaster..not ready for prime time..not presidential…Lehman moment.” And that’s just the Republicans

    Wow. Just wow.

  153. 153

    Again from Twitter (no link yet)

    Elizabeth Cherneff ‏@echerneff “Innocence of Muslims” cast/crew statement: “We are 100% not behind this film & were grossly misled about its intent & purpose.”

  154. 154
    Dr. Loveless says:

    Thing is, if this really is some conspiracy to help Romney, it’s backfired hideously. I expect better from those People in Quiet Rooms, you know?

  155. 155
    trollhattan says:

    @Ann Rynd:
    Holy crap, that’s phenomenal, even coming from her. Does Willard pay her in Krugerrands or Bain stock? What grit sandpaper is needed to remove the brown discoloration from her noseentire head? I’m guessing 40.

  156. 156
    Donut says:

    @Culture of Truth:

    It was like a soft, quick tap across Mitt’s nose, as one might do with an errant puppy, more to get its attention than to hurt it. No searing pain, no sting, nuh uh, just a reminder that one of them is actually the President, and the other is not, and one should remember that, before one opens their stupid fucking piehole.

    That’s how I see it, anyway.

  157. 157
    Suffern ACE says:

    @FormerSwingVoter: Yep.

    I also wonder if the attackers want us out or in? One way to get us in is to start shooting at us.

  158. 158
    dmsilev says:

    When you’ve fucking lost fucking Fred Hiatt, you know the overweight soprano is drawing her first deep breath and getting ready to sing:

    J.CHRISTOPHER STEVENS, the U.S. ambassador to Libya, was a skilled and courageous diplomat who repeatedly placed himself at risk in order to support the cause of a democratic Libya. His death, along with those of three other Americans, during an attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi on Tuesday is a tragedy that should prompt bipartisan support for renewed U.S. aid to Libyans who are struggling to stabilize the country. That it instead provoked a series of crude political attacks on President Obama by GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney is a discredit to his campaign.

  159. 159
    Mnemosyne says:

    It’s starting to look like this was an al-Qaeda operation to assassinate the US ambassador in Libya that used the protests as a cover, at least according to some of CNN’s sources:

    Pentagon to review video of Libya attack

    This whole thing smelled fishy last night, and the odor is just getting worse and worse. At best, Mitt got suckered by someone else’s false flag operation.

  160. 160
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    Yup.

    He’s proven Obama’s point, with his own actions.

    The stupid. It BURNS!

  161. 161
    1badbaba3 says:

    @Amir Khalid: Mitt and Jenny, sittin’ in a tree…

    @Culture of Truth: Didn’t he catch it? Much tougher.

  162. 162
    Applejinx says:

    @Litlebritdifrnt: THIS was its only purpose- whoever the shadowy checkbook is behind it.

    Right now I interpret Mitt’s smirking and prepared statements about how Obama was apologizing for America etc. as evidence someone told him something was going to happen, and what to say when it did.

    It would honestly surprise me if he was planning the seamier side of it (whether or NOT the actual attackers were false-flag paid mercs). I think somebody with access to a bunch of money, a television studio, and greenscreen, put together the trailer, and I am shall we say real skeptical that there’s any real movie at all. Hell, the lipsynch looked atrocious- is there Arabic dialogue that’s dubbed over what the visible ‘actors’ were really saying?

    Mitt cannot coordinate even such a lame project, he delegates. Either he delegated somebody to work on unspecified october-surprise projects, or his backers tipped HIM off that something was going to happen and that he’d better be quick to capitalize on it before he lost the news cycle.

  163. 163
    Todd says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Look to Fresno.

    Home of Free Republic.

    I’ve got about a half dozen names in mind from my days of mingling with real life FReaks who could pull off something this fucking stupid.

  164. 164
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @MikeJ:

    Please stop with the dumb ass conspiracy theories. Leave that shit to the Freepers.

    There is no question there is a conspiracy here; false names, non existent movie, “spontaneous” attacks when one is everything but. The real question is who are the conspirators? It is some group of religious extremists looking for a religious war or is it something more?

  165. 165
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @dmsilev:

    HOLY FLURKING SCHNIT!

    Fred Hiatt, of all people, is criticizing Rmoney?

    Turn out the lights. The party’s over.

  166. 166
    Culture of Truth says:

    It’s starting to look like this was an al-Qaeda operation to assassinate the US ambassador in Libya that used the protests as a cover

    Yes indeed. I mean, it was 9/11, correct.

  167. 167
    Shawn in ShowMe says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    It’s starting to look like this was an al-Qaeda operation to assassinate the US ambassador in Libya that used the protests as a cover

    Doesn’t smell like al-Quaeda. They would be enthusiastically taking credit for this.

  168. 168
    SatanicPanic says:

    @Ann Rynd: Well, you kinda had to see that coming.

  169. 169
    Poopyman says:

    @Shawn in ShowMe:

    Doesn’t smell like al-Quaeda. They would be enthusiastically taking credit for this.

    Well, that was the Al Qaeda #2’s job, but he got blowed up.

  170. 170
    Culture of Truth says:

    @1badbaba3: No, that was the Karate Kid.

  171. 171
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Shawn in ShowMe: They would take credit for both…that whole – we can still operate in multiple countries – would be a PR coup.

  172. 172
    Violet says:

    @PreservedKillick:

    If I were the republican leadership, I’d be seriously working to rein him in – and I’d think long and hard about ditching him and shoring up my down-ticket races.

    I keep wondering if they’ll do this. Mitt is SUCH an awful candidate. Everyone hates him, from the media to other Republicans. They’d have a better chance if they just put Santorum or Ryan up there on the top of the ticket.

  173. 173
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Shawn in ShowMe: They would take credit for both…that whole – we can still operate in multiple countries – would be a PR coup.

  174. 174
    Violet says:

    @PreservedKillick:

    If I were the republican leadership, I’d be seriously working to rein him in – and I’d think long and hard about ditching him and shoring up my down-ticket races.

    I keep wondering if they’ll do this. Mitt is SUCH an awful candidate. Everyone hates him, from the media to other Republicans. They’d have a better chance if they just put Santorum or Ryan up there on the top of the ticket.

  175. 175
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Shawn in ShowMe:

    Doesn’t smell like al-Quaeda. They would be enthusiastically taking credit for this.

    Not necessarily. If this was supposed to be a false flag operation that would goad the US into doing something stupid in addition to the assassination itself, the last thing they would want to do would be to pop out and say, “Surprise! It was us all along!”

    Whatever it was, it sure as hell was not a spontaneous demonstration that got out of hand.

  176. 176
    Poopyman says:

    @Poopyman: I couldn’t resist the crack, but it’s somewhat germane to my real point, which is that Al Qaeda has been franchised to several places across North Africa and the Middle East, and some of these new locales like Libya don’t really have their own infrastructure in place, or perhaps are prone to making a newby mistake like not having the taking-credit video ready.

  177. 177
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Shawn in ShowMe:

    Doesn’t smell like al-Quaeda. They would be enthusiastically taking credit for this.

    Not necessarily. If this was supposed to be a false flag operation that would goad the US into doing something stupid in addition to the assassination itself, the last thing they would want to do would be to pop out and say, “Surprise! It was us all along!”

    Whatever it was, it sure as hell was not a spontaneous demonstration that got out of hand.

  178. 178
  179. 179
    schrodinger's cat says:

    I am not a conspiracy theorist, but something about this whole Syrian Consulate attack does not add up. The fake movie, Romney’s smirking press conference. I hope that FBI gets to the bottom of this and soon.

  180. 180
    raven says:

    Caught a few minutes of Hannity and Ollie. They are flipping out about an open mic that “caught” reporters colluding to actually ASK Mitt questions in the presser!

  181. 181
    raven says:

    Halperin back on “BOTH SIDES”.

  182. 182
    Josh G. says:

    Regarding Sean Smith’s Wikipedia article: The offending edit is recorded here in the article history. It was made by an anonymous user from the IP address 200.72.24.13, apparently from a Chilean mobile phone (according to the WHOIS records). This edit was removed by a different user 3 minutes after it was made. This kind of vandalism, on any article, is not particularly unusual.

  183. 183
    MikeJ says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: When people starting talking about how Romney financed the movie as a cover for terrorists attacks they should really just shut the fuck up. It’s moronic to imply that Romney was involved in killing US diplomats. It makes the speaker look unhinged, and it makes the people who hang around with that speaker look equally stupid.

    The guy who made the movie used a pseudonym. So what? Right wingers always talk big they’re all a bunch of fucking kittycats[1]. You wouldn’t expect any of them to have the balls to publicly stand by their words would you? It’s a long, long, long jump from cowardly shit stirrers to Romney assassinating FSOs.

    [1]FYWP.

  184. 184
    LD50 says:

    @Eric S: “Recent presidential elections indicate the electorate is pretty closely split 50/50. If he can get more of his half to show up than Obama can he can with the election.”

    If Romney still thinks that, he hasn’t been looking at the electoral vote maps.

  185. 185
    Violet says:

    @dmsilev:

    When you’ve fucking lost fucking Fred Hiatt, you know the overweight soprano is drawing her first deep breath and getting ready to sing:

    That soprano has both feet on the stage and only a few people can’t quite yet see her step out from behind the curtain. Everyone else in the audience is already applauding her appearance.

  186. 186
    Applejinx says:

    @Shawn in ShowMe: Yes. It’s a military-style operation according to the Pentagon/’U.S. officials’, coordinated with the protests over the ‘film’ used as a smokescreen.

    The purpose of killing the American diplomats amidst a protest about an anti-Muslim film is to pin the killing on the Muslims angrily protesting.

    The purpose of THAT is to provide an example of Muslims running amok and murdering American diplomats.

    One expected response from the Obama White House- a conciliatory, non-belligerent reaction designed to help settle down the violence. This is easy to predict and in fact sort of happened, but without ‘apologizing for America’ per se.

    The purpose of coordinating the killing of American diplomats while expecting a conciliatory reaction from the President- is to feed Mitt Romney an opportunity to accuse him of making apologies for America, and set up the MSM to predictably get into another grand round of ‘Is the President making apologies for America on the occasion of the brutal killings of our citizens? Some say…’

    The ‘cui bono’ question is not subtle or difficult. All this is completely in line with known behaviors and attitudes- and reasonable expectations of all parties concerned, from Obama to the MSM.

    Mitt fucked it up (possibly because he’s not really in on too many of the details). He thought he’d been handed a surefire October Surprise, and either knew about it or didn’t give a shit where it came from at this point. He smirked and smugged and doubled down in his arrogant way, believing he could brazen his way through and that the media would have his back.

    Unfortunately, murdering American diplomats is not something you should smile about even if- or especially if- you stand to gain politically from it, or THINK you surely will stand to gain politically from it.

  187. 187
    Brachiator says:

    The strange thing about Romney is that he seems to be incapable of admitting an error or even a misstatement. Even when he walks back a position, he feverishly denies any contradiction or reversal, and continues to plow ahead.

    Yeah, this is common to many politicians. But Romney is so blatant about it, and has to do it so often, that he is just looking like a fool.

    Compounding this is his “how dare you question me” aristocratic bluster, the airy pretense that he has total command of the facts, understands the situation perfectly, when he is actually and totally clueless.

    And still the 27 percenters cling desperately to Mittens’ candidacy. It’s one thing for these people to vote against their own interests.

    Are they really so blind and afraid of Obama that they would vote for a dolt like Romney despite the increasing evidence that the man is a total buffoon likely to lead the country into disastrous foreign policy blunders?

  188. 188
    Schlemizel says:

    @Dennis SGMM:
    Why would the FBI get involved? What law was broken?

    This “trailer’ BS is getting to be a pretty common tactic. This Paultard I work with has gone on and on about a couple of ‘movies’ about the black helicopters and on and on. He gives very elaborate descriptions of scenes that have never been filmed. They are a couple of ‘trailers’ with lots of ominous music and some silly theories. The fevered brains of the wingnutati fill in the blanks.

  189. 189
    Schlemizel says:

    @bmwash374: Thanks I was afraid there for a while that nobody caught that!

  190. 190
    ericblair says:

    @Violet:

    I keep wondering if they’ll do this. Mitt is SUCH an awful candidate. Everyone hates him, from the media to other Republicans. They’d have a better chance if they just put Santorum or Ryan up there on the top of the ticket.

    Well, that ship has sailed. With a normal candidate, I suppose the Powers That Be could buy off the candidate to sit in the corner and lose gracefully and not fuck up the downticket races. Trouble is, Romney doesn’t need anything from the Powers That Be, and furthermore I don’t think there are any sane, rational Powers That Be any longer. You’ve got the Kochs and Adelson. Romney is here for the duration.

    I’m quite willing to believe there was a false flag attack, considering the nonexistent filmmaker, possibly nonexistent film, and standby goons to exploit the crowd reaction. I can’t see Romney having any hand in this or being tipped off. His “apologizing for America” blather is part of his stock speech and would be the first go-to line he’d come up with, and The Smirk meant that he thought he got off a good one against Obama. He’s a sociopathic asshole businessman, not a sociopathic asshole international terrorist.

  191. 191
    NonyNony says:

    @Brachiator:

    Are they really so blind and afraid of Obama that they would vote for a dolt like Romney despite the increasing evidence that the man is a total buffoon likely to lead the country into disastrous foreign policy blunders?

    Yes. Fear and resentment is a helluva drug cocktail.

  192. 192
    Applejinx says:

    @MikeJ: No no, Mike.
    Romney being given the opportunity to CAPITALIZE on the killing of American diplomats, and being clearly delighted at the opportunity ‘fate’ provided him- AND clearly operating with some kind of foreknowledge that led him to jump way ahead of the news cycle in an attempt to establish the spin that would be used.

    Never said Romney paid for it. I doubt the hell out of that. I’d want to look closely at some of the Tea Party billionaires, and I’d want to look closely at some of the Israeli factions (which are very, very capable of playing such dirty tricks) who would stand to benefit hugely from Romney being elected, and who aren’t as dumb as the Tea Party folks but are way more desperate for they face existential threats (the Tea Party guys only think they do).

    Since you didn’t ask me, but are just telling people I think Romney is Ernst Blofeld and planned all this, I will say ‘nope’ and call it thusly:

    The movie: Tea Party billionaires with access to television production equipment and professional greenscreen (but no great skill at using it).

    The murders: military-style assault under cover of the Muslim protests, coordinated with whoever was running the movie end of things, and either hired mercenaries or the actions of rogue foreign intelligence operatives. Some of the hard right wing in Israel stand to gain by this and have all the resources.

    The Mitt: an arrogant stooge who thinks he’s running the show, who was tipped off that something was going to happen in time enough to prepare his talking points and get smug about them, who lacks the humanity to identify that he was making a horrendous gaffe and the humility to react quickly when challenged by pretty much the whole American government and media to roll back his stupid political remarks.

    Want to know how much Mitt knows about this movie? Watch to see how hard he tries to distance himself from specifically it. If he clings to defending it in any way, he probably doesn’t even know it was a total hoax from the start. If he frantically disassociates himself from the movie itself, that would be real interesting.

  193. 193
    dedc79 says:

    @mechwarrior online: But we didn’t get pregnant from it, so clearly it wasn’t rape….

  194. 194
    Chris says:

    @Emma:

    Considering your party’s problems with women that’s one metaphor that should have stayed behind your teeth.

    Actually, I think he probably thought that’s why it would be a good analogy. Because it would show that Republicans care and think that rape-victim-blaming is a bad thing.

  195. 195
    Todd says:

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    It looks like the movie is not even a real movie.

    Looks like one of those half-assed performance pieces that wingnut megachurches like to put on at Easter and Christmas.

    Thing is, I think I recognize that old lady at the end of the trailer, probably from some FReak event way back when.

  196. 196
    Shawn in ShowMe says:

    @ericblair:

    I can’t see Romney having any hand in this or being tipped off. His “apologizing for America” blather is part of his stock speech and would be the first go-to line he’d come up with

    But isn’t holding a press conference where he actually takes questions from the MSM a drastic departure for a guy who needs his wife alongside to take on Dancing Dave? Those are the actions of a guy who was expecting a media opportunity to look “strong”.

  197. 197
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Brachiator:

    Are they really so blind and afraid of Obama that they would vote for a dolt like Romney despite the increasing evidence that the man is a total buffoon likely to lead the country into disastrous foreign policy blunders?

    You need to ask this?

    The man is a ni*CLANG*. He MUST be removed from the WHITE House by any means necessary. Replacing him with a total buffoon, as long as the buffoon is white, is preferable. After all, we’ve experienced the President being a total buffoon from 2001-2009, did we not?

  198. 198
    Ash says:

    @MikeJ: Saying Romney is behind it is f’n stupid and whoever said that should be slapped, but there is definitely some bigger ploy at play here.

  199. 199
    Chris says:

    @Shawn in ShowMe:

    Doesn’t smell like al-Quaeda. They would be enthusiastically taking credit for this.

    If they’re intelligent, they’re trying to set the Libyan people and the West against each other; the way to do that is to make this look like a spontaneous act by the Libyan people. Of course, they may very well not be that smart. I don’t think we know all that much about the Libyan branch of al-Qaeda.

    But the “divide and conquer” thing was a hallmark of the Iraq war (with Sunni vs Shi’a) in that case. Keep hitting an enemy until you provoke him into indiscriminate retaliation against “your” side, which at that point will become much easier to recruit from. (And lead into the war you always wanted).

    It’s why I’m sort of wincing at the 200 Marines being sent over. Better than what Romney would have done, but still… Ideally, we let the Libyans clean this up. (That assumes they’re up to it, of course).

  200. 200
    Chris says:

    @Violet:

    I keep wondering if they’ll do this. Mitt is SUCH an awful candidate. Everyone hates him, from the media to other Republicans. They’d have a better chance if they just put Santorum or Ryan up there on the top of the ticket.

    Assuming they don’t just want him to lose, period. Whoever the candidate is is going to have a bitch of a time running AND governing, if he ever makes it to that second stage. It’s been a theory of mine for ages that Romney’s simply being used as a fall guy while the party waits for a better day.

  201. 201
    LanceThruster says:

    All I know (really) is that whenever there is some outrage by violent radical Muslims, Bill Donohue talks about how that means people have to stop demonizing Catholics because they’re not as bad (quite a bar to aspire to).

    Problem is, Catholics/Xristians have their own history with murdering heretics or anyone else who hurt their fee-fees. Plus, they did not relinquish this power voluntarily (and Donohue often speaks as if he wishes the church still had the power).

    As an atheist, I reject everyone’s god equally, but part of the problem of not being able to openly reject gods worldwide, is because of people like Donohue who would want to first make sure the wrong god/right god was specified.

    Sure, no one was murdered because of Serrano’s “Piss Christ,” but the hyperventilating over it plays into the mindset of anyone following so weak a deity that their master of the universe couldn’t handle it her/him/it/themselves.

  202. 202
    Davis X. Machina says:

    It’s why I’m sort of wincing at the 200 Marines being sent over.

    How does it look if you have them in Spain and don’t send them over?

    The Republicans haven’t delivered a balanced budget since Eisenhower, and they’re still the party of fiscal probity.

    That’s approximately how long the Democrats are going to continue to be ‘soft on defense’…

  203. 203
    Chris says:

    @Poopyman:

    I couldn’t resist the crack, but it’s somewhat germane to my real point, which is that Al Qaeda has been franchised to several places across North Africa and the Middle East, and some of these new locales like Libya don’t really have their own infrastructure in place, or perhaps are prone to making a newby mistake like not having the taking-credit video ready.

    True. Al-Qaeda started out as a group. Now it’s more of a franchise, a bunch of different chapters spread out around the world who mostly just do their own thing locally and are connected by ideology more than by formal structure.

    (Based on my understanding, that’s basically how the Ku Klux Klan worked too. Think the West Wing hit a jackpot with “Islamic fundamentalist = KKK” back in their 9/11 special).

  204. 204
    Chris says:

    @Brachiator:

    The strange thing about Romney is that he seems to be incapable of admitting an error or even a misstatement. Even when he walks back a position, he feverishly denies any contradiction or reversal, and continues to plow ahead.

    I waffle between whether that’s because Romney is just such a fucktastically bad candidate, or whether the tone-deafness is just a byproduct of having lived in the Conservative Alternate Universe for so long you can’t even process what’s outside of it anymore – not just Romney but an increasing number of conservatives. Palin was exactly the same way.

  205. 205
    Brachiator says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    He MUST be removed from the WHITE House by any means necessary. Replacing him with a total buffoon, as long as the buffoon is white, is preferable. After all, we’ve experienced the President being a total buffoon from 2001-2009, did we not?

    This part I get.

    Yea, Dubya was a dumbass, but he had the Dark Lord of the Sith Cheney to at least pretend to some competence (and I think that Cheney was a charlatan behind his steely resolve).

    But increasingly, both Romney and his little buddy Ryan, demonstrate that they are totally clueless. This, despite all the attempts by conservative pundits to portray them to be manly man-spawning mighty mountain men.

    So Mittens lies and tries to give off Real White American Anglo Saxon Better Than Any Nonwhite ™ vibes. And he even gives worrisome signs of believing his own BS.

    But you have got to be a truly sad sack to look at MittRyan and actually believe that they are anything other than two sad sack pretenders.

  206. 206
    Chris says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    Yeah, I know. I’m just thinking of the effects on the ground. I doubt if they have orders to do more than secure and guard the embassy, so it shouldn’t be that bad, but still.

  207. 207
  208. 208

    Jake Tapper also reports that the Chairman of the JSOC has called Pastor Jones and suggested that perhaps he should pull back his support for this film (which apparently doesn’t even exist).

    WTF?

  209. 209
    bjacques says:

    @Litlebritdifrnt: I’d like to hear more details from that quarter. If it was strung together from various Christian church video productions, the actors ought to step up and say what those productions were and what they thought they were doing. Especially if none of them intended to portray the Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be peace).

    Identify at least two independent productions and you’ve got upport for the theory that this was deliberately faked.

  210. 210
    Brachiator says:

    @Chris:

    I waffle between whether that’s because Romney is just such a fucktastically bad candidate, or whether the tone-deafness is just a byproduct of having lived in the Conservative Alternate Universe for so long you can’t even process what’s outside of it anymore – not just Romney but an increasing number of conservatives. Palin was exactly the same way.

    No. I think that Romney is decidely different.

    One of the oddest things about Romney is that he watched his father take bold decisive positions, blaze trails, act honorably, and yet decided that for himself this was precisely the path to avoid. Romney saw more of the world and has had numerous opportunities to grow, and he has even governed much more moderately and successfully than Palin ever has.

    Romney has clearly had education and experiences and opportunities that Palin can only dream about. And yet he has seemed to be afraid to learn from these opportunities or make the most of them, apart from his bland ambition to be president.

    Romney hides from his own accomplishments, lies about easily refutable facts, events and decisions, and does everything he can to try to suck up to people he clearly views as as inferiors.

    It’s the craziest thing I have seen in politics in quite a while.

  211. 211
    nominus says:

    Rmoney experiences the uncomfortable feeling of getting a boot up his ass:

    “There’s a broader lesson to be learned here: Gov. Romney seems to have a tendency to shoot first and aim later and as president one of the things I’ve learned is you can’t do that,” Obama told CBS News Wednesday.”It’s important for you to make sure that the statements that you make are backed up by the facts and that you’ve thought through the ramifications before you make them.”

  212. 212
    bjacques says:

    Here we are: movie update.

  213. 213
    xian says:

    @👽 Martin: I agree. It’s like high school and when they have the scent of loser they pile on so everyone will know they’re with the winner and should still be the popular kids.

  214. 214
    xian says:

    @KG: Romney prefers the rigged game, the sure thing.

  215. 215
    xian says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: one thread I was reading elsewhere compared it to a poker concept of being “on tilt” – I particularly like the pinball machine subtext.

  216. 216
    Mnemosyne (iPhone) says:

    @MikeJ:

    I will clarify: personally, I doubt Romney had anything to do with the movie or the assassination plot. I think his campaign was on the lookout for a foreign affairs “gaffe” by Obama and jumped onto this with both feet when it happened. It’s Romney’s bad luck that the “gaffe” turned out to be an assassination plot, not a spontaneous riot.

  217. 217
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    @Brachiator:

    One of the oddest things about Romney is that he watched his father take bold decisive positions, blaze trails, act honorably, and yet decided that for himself this was precisely the path to avoid.

    Romney hides from his own accomplishments, lies about easily refutable facts, events and decisions, and does everything he can to try to suck up to people he clearly views as as inferiors.

    __
    Family biography is destiny if you have Daddy issues.
    __
    George Romney was the frontrunner for the GOP nomination in 1968 until he sunk himself by being too candid about how his views re: Vietnam had been influenced by BS. That was no accident, he had a reputation for unfathomable, painful levels of candor, a crippling defect in a politician trying to beat out Richard Nixon in a close contest. After his “brainwashing” comment, GR dropped
    something like 40 points in the polls in a matter of weeks. Nixon said that it was the damndest thing he’d ever seen in politics, that he (Nixon) had never seen anything like it.
    __
    Clearly George Romney’s son has taken this lesson to heart: in politics a honest man is a loser.
    __
    The parallels are uncanny with George W Bush and the way he avoided doing things his father had done (like raising taxes, being cautious in Iraq), especially things which contributed to his father losing the 1992 election.
    __
    Dear America: when you encounter Republicans with Daddy issues, run away. Run far and run fast.

  218. 218
    xian says:

    @Poopyman: Mossad?

    If Romney keeps going down this rathole I’m going to give Obama 40 states in November.

  219. 219
    Applejinx says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):
    What evidence do we have that the Romney campaign is staffed by crack operatives, given autonomy, on top of their games and capable of spotting such an opportunity with no forewarning and springing decisively into action?

    Maybe if Mitt PERSONALLY happened to be awake and PERSONALLY spotted the info (from where?) and decided to charge ahead with it all on his own- in that case, surely nobody in the Romney campaign would dream of arguing.

    I contest this idea that Romney’s people are able to seize upon new information and act that decisively with it. Mitt wouldn’t like that. They might get christened the new savior of his campaign or something, and look what happened to the last guy to show real initiative- axed.

    Still thinking if a major backer came bearing gifts of unspecified PR opportunities in the very near future, that it would be a whole other story. You’re postulating a quick-acting, cunning team of political tacticians with initiative. I think not.

  220. 220
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Applejinx:

    What evidence do we have that the Romney campaign is staffed by crack operatives, given autonomy, on top of their games and capable of spotting such an opportunity with no forewarning and springing decisively into action?

    Dude, haven’t you ever heard of a CNN e-mail alert? Half the people I know get them, and I’m not in journalism. Someone at the campaign (or, more likely, multiple someones) got pinged by CNN, thought, “This is our chance to hit back at Obama about foreign policy!” and ran with it without thinking. The “apologizing for America” attack is at least four years old, so they plugged it in and took off. And the result went something like this.

  221. 221
    PurpleGirl says:

    @Violet: You know that at one time you couldn’t have an actor portray Christ in a movie. It just wasn’t done, it was blasphemous. Two of the first actors to play Christ were Jeffrey Hunter in 1961 (Kings of Kings) and Max von Sydow in 1965 (Greatest Story Ever Told).

  222. 222
    Applejinx says:

    @Mnemosyne: Oh yeah? Okay, I’ll buy that, if there was such an alert. There’s always the possibility that the Romney people simply bungled somebody else’s dirty trick without being aware in advance that any trick was underway.

  223. 223
    grandpa john says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): It is also becoming clearer that these were not simple spontaneous demonstrations but evidence is beginning to show that these were clearly pre-planned terrorist style attacks

  224. 224
    JR in WV says:

    FSM knows I’m a cynic paranoid about political plots, ever since I read “7 Days in May” and then saw the movie, which was well done.

    And ever since I was a little boy there have been assasinations of Presidents and successful candidates, and other leaders stirring up the underclass.

    So.

    A fake “film” that horrifies roughly a billion people, who don’t much like the USA.

    A “spontaneous” attack on a protected American diplomatic outpost in a newly liberated Arabic nation, supposedly prompted by the fake “film”.

    A would be “politician”, Willard, makes a play to attack a polished and successful politician, Barack, based upon the “spontaneous” attack; an attempt to turn a vital election on a dime, an election that looks settled until this event.

    Willard drops the ball in several ways, not knowing of the time line, not knowing of the deaths and of the high regard everyone (on both sides of the election) has for the deceased, murdered Amabasador. Then he doubles down, and grins walking away from his podium?

    I don’t buy the apparent sequence of events at all.

    Willard may not have known much about this going it, but no way he didn’t know something was going down. No way he was ready to accuse President Obama last night in the middle of this playing out.

    He knew something was going on, and had a good idea what it was, hours if not days before the stuff hit the ventilator.

    And he was too dumb/inept to keep a serious gambler’s face on as he walked away from his podium; he couldn’t help but smirk his little boss’s grin at how well he had carried off that “news conference”. And he had no idea there were still photographers that were going to capture his little smirking grin for eternity.

    How inappropriate was it for him to grin about such seriously bad news? Would any real human or competent politician ever have such an expression on his face dealing with the death of an American Ambassador, not to mention the other Americans killed in the “spontaneous” attack?

    No.

    I call bogus on the whole series, all organized ahead by right wing wingnuts, all of it! Including the spontaneous attack.

    And it’s Willard’s fault everyone is figuring it out!! Dumbass!!

    Total!!

  225. 225
    priscianusjr says:

    @aimai:

    Saying, for instance, that the film made by a person who is not even clearly of American citizenship (btw) is not, in fact, representative of the US government or other American citizens is NOT REPRESSING SPEECH.

    I’m really trying to understand what you’re saying. First you say you “question the right of a man pretending to be a Jewish-American film maker and making an incendiary film which will cost lives—Jewish, American, basically lots of lives, for purposes which are completely obscure but necessarily far from innocent”. . . . “it has ended up fomenting hatred and violence—which was its goal.”

    Of course condemning something is not the same as repressing it. But you started by questioning the right, which is more than condemning. True, it’s not repressing speech, it’s also only a statement, but it is a statement envisioning the legitimacy of repressing speech. So that’s the topic at hand.

    May I point out another contradiction. You started by questioning the right of “making an incendiary film . . . for purposes which are completely obscure but necessarily far from innocent” . . . Then you say, “it has ended up fomenting hatred and violence—which was its goal.”

    In other words, its purposes are not completely obscure, and they turn out to be,as you said, far from innocent: incendiary fomenting of violence. I would call this an allegation of criminal intent.

    You were right the first time, this is not a free speech issue, any more than the refusal of Judith Miller to reveal a source in the outing of a CIA agent was a genuine freedom of the press issue. This is an incitement issue that cost the lives of US citizens and government employess.

    Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969), was a US Supreme Court case based on the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. The Court held that government cannot punish inflammatory speech unless that speech is directed to inciting, and is likely to incite, imminent lawless action.

    I think a good case can be made that that’s exactly what happened here. I’m not questioning anybody’s right to express their opinion, I’m questioning somebody’s right to commit a criminal act.

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