Now that Todd Akin gave the press a little glimpse of what crawls around under the anti-abortion rock, they’re digging in. Both Sarah Kliff and Garance Franke-Ruta, as well as one of Josh Marshall’s readers, point out that the “rape prevents pregnancy” and “forcible rape” stuff is nothing new. Franke-Ruta:
The thing is, his comments were hardly some kind never-before-heard gaffe. Arguments like his have cropped up again and again on the right over the past quarter century and the idea that trauma is a form of birth control continues to be promulgated by anti-abortion forces that seek to outlaw all abortions, even in cases of rape or incest. The push for a no-exceptions anti-abortion policy has for decades gone hand in hand with efforts to downplay the frequency with which rape- or incest-related pregnancies occur, and even to deny that they happen, at all. In other words, it’s not just Akin singing this tune.
Part of my Catholic religious “education” at least 30 years ago was a gory film by some right-to-life physician full of fetuses and lies about the abortion procedure itself. It’s no surprise that some other quacks and quack-enablers are cooking up lies about rape and pregnancy.
Also, too: if stress hormones stop implantation during a rape, as the anti-abortionists claim, isn’t every rapist also an abortionist and therefore a murderer? I wonder if Akin supports capital punishment for rapists.
Punchy
All they need is 1 doctor to say it. Then Fox News “interviews” the doctor, who repeats it. Then the MSM says shit like “some people believe X, as reported on by the media”, giving it legitmacy. Then Rush repeats it ad neauseum until the mouth-breathers are convinced.
Same exact playbook as climate change, or the “abortions cause breast cancer” shit.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
I think Akin’s statement is multilayer BS – conservatives have been also pushing rape is just something feminists came up with. I think when Akin says “legitimate rape” he means anal sex.
Comrade Dread
Knowing friends who have experienced the horror of rape, if I supported capital punishment, I would seriously consider adding rape to the list of capital crimes.
gnomedad
Are you kidding? He probably supports it for flag-burners.
Balconesfault
I wish these folks would just come out and define their terms.
“fake rape” – when boyfriend Todd gets a little carried away at the end of a date, and pins her to the bed because we all know “no” really means “do me you hot stud” … or when the drunk girl at the lacrosse party finds herself in the back room forced to take on multiple guys because she dressed too slutty and teased too much all night
“legitimate rape” – when a big black guy is involved
Now, if they could only get the “big black guy” clause written into the law somehow, I’m sure they’d all be fine with that exception.
peach flavored shampoo
Show me more than handful Republican women who will change their vote b/c of this. He could have gone the Full Bobby Knight Rape Quote, whipped his junk out and starting raping bunnies on TV, and he still would be getting over 99% of the GOP vote.
Nothing he says will affect their voters’ minds. Mizou is just that red right now.
MattF
There’s also the tacit suggestion that if there’s a pregnancy, then it wasn’t ‘really’ rape. Just disgusting.
beltane
No, they are not saying that rapists are abortionists. That would be letting evil, impure women off the hook to easily. They’re argument, such as it is, derives straight out of the world of medieval penitential guides. What Akin and others are really saying is that women who are truly “pure” will be protected from bearing a rapist’s child by the merciful hand of God. This is the same exact thinking, derived from the same sources, that came up with the criteria for determining guilt or innocence in witchcraft cases. There is no difference.
Balconesfault
Even Texas a few years back was sane enough to elect a Dem Governor when Republican Clayton Williams made his infamous “lie back and enjoy it” joke. I have a feeling that the average GOPer today would just respond “if she was slutty enough to get raped, she probably did enjoy it, no matter what she says …”
Dracula
What’s also important to the story is that this shithead’s been re-elected 5 times. Five. Nobody could figure out after 10 years that he’s a f#ckin a-hole.
Thanks St. Louis Metro. You really know how to pick ’em.
beltane
@peach flavored shampoo: Most Republican women believe they are good and chaste while all other women who are not them are evil sluts looking to seduce unsuspecting men. There is no such thing as a sisterhood of women, and the loudest voices of misogyny are often female.
MattF
The Guardian has a good article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-h-word/2012/aug/20/legitimate-rape-medieval-medical-concept
Scott S.
@gnomedad:
Are you kidding? He probably supports it for flag-burners.
He probably supports it for people who sneeze in church.
jibeaux
@beltane: This was pretty much my thought. I mean, we might as well be trying to turn dirt into gold with the scientific understanding of the current GOP. At least the folks in the dark ages had a fucking excuse for their ignorance.
Waldo
@gnomedad: Exactly. And I’m sure Akin would be happy at this point to shift the focus to noncontroversial topic like capital punishment.
EconWatcher
In my Catholic high school, I took a test once in a theology class in which there was a true or false question that asked approximately: “If abortion were outlawed, many women would die or be injured in dangerous illegal abortions.”
I didn’t have strong political or social opinions at the time, but I put “True” based on common sense. I was marked incorrect.
After class, I went to the brother who was teaching to ask about it. He told me that there were very few reports of illegal abortions and injuries from them when abortion was illegal, so the correct answer was false. I said, but if it was illegal, how would you know? Wouldn’t the people involved cover it up if a woman died from an illegal abortion?
He grimaced and, to his credit, said maybe the answer wasn’t so sure and rescored my test.
Pavonis
Arrggh! This is just like Global Warming Denialism. A few quack “scientists” who agree with the conservative talking point >> the consensus of the serious 99.9% part of the scientific community. And even worse: obvious evidence which doesn’t even require science to understand (the existence of children of rape victims/rising average temperatures) gets ignored. Yep, reality has a liberal bias.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@peach flavored shampoo:
As a resident or red, rurl Misery, in fact the second reddest county in the state, I can guarandmamntee you it won’t change the vote of one vaginal Repup in these parts. It won’t because they see rape as something that happens to “other people”. That kind of thing *never* happens around here.
Instead we have natives who kill a woman with a shotgun, then chop up her body into little pieces and dump it in the Missouri River. Then never worry about the consequences because local law enforcement is a joke and it only took the Feds in St Louis to open a RICO investigation that rolled the wife of the killer.
Yup, welcome to (un)Real ‘Murka, aka Todd Akin’s Constituency.
TheMightyTrowel
Benen pointed out that akin and Ryan both co sponsored the forcible rape bill earlier this year. would be a nice 30 second ad.
Snarki, child of Loki
@jibeaux: ” we might as well be trying to turn dirt into gold with the scientific understanding of the current GOP”
The GOP, and conservatives, have a long history of turning bullshit into gold.
Linda Featheringill
I read somewhere [on BJ] that conception occurs in about 5% of all rape cases. I looked on google and found several sources that quote numbers around 5%.
Don’t know how dependable this source is, but it says that every act of unprotected intercourse results in conception about 2.5% of the time.
http://ask.metafilter.com/14956/What-percentage-of-unprotected-intercourse-results-in-pregnancy
So. A women being raped is twice as fertile as the women who is a willing participant?
EconWatcher
@Linda Featheringill:
In the consensual cases, the woman may often know that she’s at a point in the cycle where she’s less likely to conceive, and may forgo protection for that reason. So the disparity in the 5% and 2.5% figures sounds plausible to me, unless I’m missing something.
MattF
@TheMightyTrowel: Benen also notes that Akin is a member of the House Science Committee. Now I have to add yet another exploded Snark-O-Meter to the collection on my étagère.
TheMightyTrowel
@Linda Featheringill: remember that all stats about rape are horribly skewed by low reporting rates. the 5% appears to be of reported rapes rather than all rapes. it’s a terrible thought, but i would guess a pregnancy could motivate a woman to report a rape that she otherwise might not.
lonesomerobot
And now Politico douchebag Dave Catanese has taken to Twitter to defend Akin’s comments…
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@lonesomerobot:
“Politico douchebag” is a double negative.
bcinaz
So what now; along with the mandatory vaginal probe, a mandatory blood test panel to see if a woman did ‘secrete the secretion’ to determine if she was ‘legitimately raped’?
Pavonis
@Linda Featheringill:
Fertility is also a function of age. Maybe rape victims are younger than the population as a whole? I don’t know.
I would’ve thought that with all the people having sex and children throughout history the number would be well known.
Kane
I wonder if Claire McCaskill is seeing an increase in donations.
Steve
@TheMightyTrowel: This is probably true, but it takes us right back to the wingnut logic that inspired Akin’s statement: according to the lizard brain, a large number of reported rapes are simply made up by women who don’t want to admit that they were slutty and got pregnant.
Mark S.
Send in the clowns. Dana Loesch:
Anti-rape? No. But pro-coal? Hell yes!
rlrr
@Dracula:
Don’t blame me, I never voted for that idiot. And yes, those who pay attention know Akin is an idiot – even before he shot off his mouth about rape…
Nylund
I had a similar thought. The description of how this supposedly worked actually sounded quite a bit like the morning-after pill, which, as we all know is a murder pill…
gelfling545
@EconWatcher: You just made me think back to my daughter who wore her “no coat hangers” pin on her catholic school uniform for at least 2 years & no teacher ever objected. They seldom addressed this while she was a student (late 90s) mainly saying that in all situations choices that promoted life were preferred. Of course this was never addressed in my high school years as abortion was not yet legal.
beltane
@Linda Featheringill: It could also be that rapists are more fertile than other males. The real issue here is that rape being classified as a crime against an individual women is a recent phenomenon that conservatives are not really comfortable with. For much of human history, rape was treated as a property crime against a woman’s male relatives https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=196955
Conservatives have never really accepted the criminalization of spousal rape, and I believe they intend to turn back the clock in all areas of the law which grant legal and physical autonomy for women. They really are the American Taliban
blondie
I was actually a bit amazed at how many GOPers are distancing themselves from him. He was merely spouting standard forced-birther fare. When there is so much of this sort of disinformation in forced-birther orthodoxy, he was probably startled at the backlash to his well-accepted comments. After they were willing to try to include “forcible rape” in the health care bill, he may well wonder why are they making such a stink about this now?
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@Dracula:
Keep in mind that the vast majority of the metro St Louis area outside the city proper are typical, white flight bigots. Prior to the 2010 Census, the three congressional districts in the area were drawn specifically for incumbent safety, in this case 2 Dems and 1 Repup. Akin’s former district sucked in all the metro area Repups of which there are a shitload. This clown, and district, are not at all unlike the MN district drawn to ensure Crazy Eyes Bachmann gets to feed at the federal job trough for as long as she wants.
These are the 27%ers.
Soonergrunt
@Scott S.: But he would not support the death penalty for rapists. That doesn’t fit the religious framing he believes in. He believes that the correct punishment is for the rapist to marry his victim.
MattF
@gelfling545: Back in the ’60’s, my dad, who was a physician, would remind me to tell him if I knew any woman who needed an abortion. He would note that the statistics collected by hospitals and made available to physicians made it obvious where abortions were routinely performed and that Catholic hospitals were no exception.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@Kane:
She’s spent 5+ years pissing off the base so much here, all she can count on is our vote, not our money.
Normally in a “controversial” political situation like this one, Claire would go into her full-tilt Blanche Lincoln mode. But, as shitty a Dem as Claire is, one thing she has stood her ground on would be the party’s line on women’s issues.
So, I’m sure she’s struggling with her innate desire to mouth right wing platitudes so she doesn’t alienate the 3 independent voters left in the state against her sincere stance on women’s rights.
The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of compassion
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage: Okay, this is probably not cool, and please feel free to ignore me, but as a fellow “missionary” to the backwoods of Missouri, I’m curious as to which circle of hell you landed in.
Nylund
My theory is simple. They think that females who have sex are big sluts (cf. Sandra Fluke). Sluts deserved to be punished. Genesis makes it clear that the pains of childbirth exist as a form of punishment for women. Thus, when a girl goes slutting it up, they think that it’s God’s will that their “pleasure parts” get all torn up by a baby’s head during the birthing process. God is going to show you how much he disapproves of your slutty ways by tearing those lady parts up.
If you us a condom, birth control, morning after pill, abortion, etc. you’re removing that punishment, that ripping and tearing of female genitalia. So, those things need to be outlawed.
“Legitimate rape” throws a wrench in this whole idea. That girl was a victim, so how could God possibly “punish” her with the pain of childbirth? Isn’t God fair and just? The answer is, God doesn’t. Magical secretions are secreted to make this a non-issue.
I really believe it has nothing to do with “saving lives of innocent babies.” It’s about the idea that sexy-time is wrong, and if you do it, God will make your vajayjay hurt. And trying to avoid that is an affront to God.
Mark S.
He misspoke. Like the time Obama said there are 57 states.
IT’S THE SAME THING!
shortstop
@beltane: I think it’s also a way of setting aside any sympathy they may have for the untenable situation faced by women impregnated by rape. Somewhere in their little reptilian minds, they recognize that women in this circumstance are being dealt a hand of unimaginable pain and unfairness; rather than squarely face that dilemma, they have to pretend it doesn’t exist. So…magic stress secretions! Problem solved!
ChrisNYC
@blondie: Me too. Shocked. Other than that Politico guy, I have seen zero defense. No accounting for wingnut logic.
shortstop
Huh, I guess Claire McCaskill could have gone to the Democratic convention after all. Turns out pretending she’s not really a Dem would not have saved her seat. Gosh, who could have predicted?
EconWatcher
@gelfling545:
My Catholic school was right wing, and they certainly taught the party line on abortion and other issues. But I have to say that the teachers and even the principal had a genuine respect for the idea of free inquiry and intellectual development in kids, and weren’t the type to stomp all over you if you asked questions and voiced disagreement. This was in the early 80s.
At least in those days, that made Catholics–even conservative Catholics– very different from fundies. I fear that may have changed since then, though, as the Church has lurched further to the right.
I fell away a long time ago and don’t send my kids to Catholic school, so I wouldn’t know. But I got a good education and personally have no complaints.
shortstop
@blondie: I think we really need to know what presumptive vice-presidential nominee Paul Ryan, who opposes abortion even in cases of rape or incest, thinks about this innovative medical theory.
shortstop
@EconWatcher: Yes, I remember these days as well, and concur that they’re gone. It’s very different in virtually all Catholic schools these days.
srv
Who will be the first pundit to say the media’s treatment of Akin is akin to rape?
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of compassion:
Heh heh, I’ve never hid where I live: Osage County about 25 miles east of Jeff City. I’m from the metro DC area and yes, I’ve moved to a foreign country.
Since this is German Catholic country, the religious fervor of our talibangalist brethren in and around Springfield, isn’t there. But the voting patterns are.
It’s a bizarre mix really. Everybody uses birth country but everybody lives in the same, single issue, forced birth ghetto. Oh, and guns.
eric
@Mark S.: Strip mining for coal is not legitimate raping of land.
Pavonis
@EconWatcher:
It’s Ratzinger and his ilk. The priority now is to squash dissent and child rape accusations rather than do the work of Christ. The top of the Catholic hierarchy doesn’t understand they can’t act like it’s the 11th century anymore. Historians will call Ratzinger’s election to pope a horrible mistake for the Church.
Litlebritdifrnt
Stand by for incoming, DougJ got a mention in this Politico piece.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/79882.html
Linda Featheringill
@TheMightyTrowel: #24
Good point.
And the incidence of conception with an episode of unprotected sex could be about 2.5%. Period.
beltane
@EconWatcher: The Roman Catholic church has always been a deeply reactionary organization albeit one known for its intellectual rigor. It looks like they’ve chosen to bolster their reactionism by ditching the intellectual rigor and adopting the pig-ignorant mindset of evangelical Christianity.
Kane
@lonesomerobot:
Politico fired Joe Williams for making rather tame comments about Romney and the folks at Fox & Friends. It will be interesting to see what the fallout is for Catanese.
WarMunchkin
I don’t really want to play their game, to be honest. Any debate about abortion being okay in the case of rape is fallacious in the first place – it implies that abortion should only be allowed for women who don’t intend to have sex. The actual issue is that the abortion debate is a proxy for whether (premarital) sex should be allowed, and I’m tired of beating around the bush on that point.
geg6
@Pavonis:
When the Church has lost Ireland, it’s a lost cause.
And thank the FSM for that.
LunaSea
As someone who was just redistricted into the nightmare that is Todd Akin, McCaskill has my vote and money. She manages to vote with Obama most of the time, and certainly has on key issues. That’s worthy of actual support, even if she has said some stupid things and voted for idiotic things like the balanced budget amendment. With the choice of Akin and McCaskill, damn right I’m going to do what I can to support her.
ChrisNYC
Way OT – Erick Erickson has a post up advocating the break of the big banks. Urging Romney to make it a centerpiece of his campaign. Works off a Bloomberg piece. They must be really really worried about November.
Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac
And now, in line with the earlier post about “nastiest campaign ever”, we’ll get a public discussion about the word “legitimate” and other gaffes, rather than the real policy discussion about how everything Akin said was medically inaccurate and harmful.
Then, we’ll talk about how “some people say” that fringe medical ideas such that Akin has can be right, like that time germs were thought to be a fringe incorrect idea, amirite?
heck, i’m sure that if I looked around the mediasphere, these dicussions are already started…
Mnemosyne
@shortstop:
Same thing with late-term abortions, which should be the most defensible abortions since 90% of the time, they have to be done because either the mother or the fetus is going to die.
But try explaining anencephalitis to a “pro-life” person and watch their eyes glaze over with denial. After all, everyone knows that pregnancy always goes smoothly unless the woman actively does something to interfere, so it’s not possible to have a life-threatening pregnancy or a pregnancy where the fetus dies or is so developmentally damaged it won’t survive outside the uterus. In their minds, it’s literally impossible for someone to have a wanted pregnancy that ends with a dead fetus or infant.
Pavonis
@geg6:
I saw that too. 20% of the Irish population gave up their faith in the past 7 years. If I was the Pope, I’d be panicking. Immediate excommunication of all priests who have molested children. Allow women priestesses. Refocus the Church’s mission on compassion rather than suppression.
But I won’t get my hopes up. Like the American Christian Right, there seems to be a lot of interest in controlling people and none in helping them.
Tone In DC
@ChrisNYC:
That is a BIG damn surprise, coming from Erick son of Erick. They are not just worried, IMHO, they are positively panic-stricken.
As they should be.
Villago Delenda Est
@beltane:
This, this, this.
Also, too, your other comments in the thread.
These people are sexually obsessed assholes, determined to judge others by their own broomstick up the ass standards.
srv
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Well, if Moran has thrown you under the bus…
Villago Delenda Est
@Mnemosyne:
It is persons like these who provide a strong justification for retroactive abortion. What passes for their minds are seriously diseased.
McJulie
Well, here’s my theory:
Humans are inherently conflicted about abortion. We feel that it’s wrong to end a viable pregnancy at the same time we feel that it’s wrong to not be able to control our reproduction. These feelings are species survival instincts. Either extreme (no abortion or all abortion) threaten our survival.
This makes people who haven’t thought deeply about their own position extremely vulnerable to external cues and tricks. They’ll come across as anti abortion one day and pro choice the other, depending entirely on how you ask the question.
This is why “exceptions for rape and incest” are so popular. They don’t address the personhood of the fetus at all, and their popularity (I think) proves that it is not actually the personhood of the fetus that makes people uncomfortable with abortion. Instead, they address the intuitively conflicted feelings people have.
So, lies like the “rape doesn’t result in pregnancy” urban legend are just designed to soothe the conflict, to make people on the fence (most people, in my view) feel better about the absolute no-abortion position.
That’s also why, sometimes, they lose support when they go too far.
sagesource
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage: And this is why you lose so damned often. Either support her all the way or run someone who is both to her left and capable of winning the seat. There is no third option. If there is even ONE issue where she’s more progressive than her Republican opponent, you are crazy not getting behind her when push comes to shove. Nothing says you have to swear allegiance to her. Primary her if you think you have the right candidate. But don’t just sit back, let some raging dick of a Republican win, and pretend that you aren’t partially responsible for that outcome.
sagesource
@Pavonis: IIRC there was one medieval pope who made pedophile priests into galley slaves. Not all of the customs of the past need be abandoned.
GregB
I’m listening to Paul Ryan in NH and I am hoping that the ghost of Lee Atwater comes down and helps some Democratic strategist strip the bark off this bastard.
Smug lying prick.
deep
These psychos have enough murder on the brain, we don’t need to give them any more ideas.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@sagesource:
I’m not taking some firebagger, purity pony stance on this. There were no primary-her options. If there had been, it’s impossible to say how one would vote since any such challenge could have come from either side. Plus, given the precariousness of her seat, you can be rest assured that what passes for a Dem party in this state would have attempted to squash any such challenge before it gained any traction in order to avoid the “Dems in Disarray” meme that would have dominated the media.
For that matter, I didn’t vote for her in the primary because I held my nose and picked up a Repup ballot so I could vote for Akin, figuring he was her best shot to keep the seat.
So, I’ll dutifully go and vote for her because I realize that a House and Senate in Repup hands will totally nullify an Obama second term.
Thus, I don’t see how my not giving her $25 allows some raging dick of a Republican win and make me responsible for it. Fuck that shit. If she wants money from me, she can stop saying stoopid shit and not vote for stoopid shit (like the balanced budget amendment or FISA reauthorization). Sheesh, I don’t agree with Dems on everything, none of us do, but I sure as shit can criticize our milquetoast Senator in an attempt to make her accountable to her base, such that we are out here.
mamayaga
This dustup is perfect opportunity for the Obama campaign to pile on about Ryan’s extremist views on abortions and Romney’s decidedly, um, variable views. The campaign had already started with ads after Ryan’s pick, but now he can easily be linked to Akin via the legislation he co-sponsored with Akin to limit abortions to cases of “forcible” rape, which I’m guessing means those exceedingly rare instances in which legitimate rape somehow didn’t turn on the magic secretions. What needs to be emphasized is that the “forcible” rape limitation removes the possibility of abortion in cases of statutory rape, ensuring that the child victims of sexual predators are further traumatized because I guess they haven’t been enough already.
EconWatcher
Just focusing on the politics for a second, McCaskill tried to pull a Harry Reid by helping the least viable candidate win the primary. But she’s now realizing that her strategy may have worked too well, because that candidate is such a clown he may have to step aside in favor of someone more viable. Which would be a shame.
But the clamoring from rightie bloggers reminds me of their reaction when Trent Lott basically praised Strom Thurmond for his segregationist record. Even wingnuts sometimes know when things have gone too far. Which is, again, too bad for McCaskill, and for us.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Linda Featheringill:
2.5% difference is likely just statistical noise.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@EconWatcher:
Won’t happen here. I can’t speak about Brunner, one of his primary opponents, but the other, Steelman, is every bit the fundy, teatard lunatic that Akin is. The Repup machine wanted Akin over the other two for reasons that are anybody’s guess. Oh yeah, lesser of three evils. They don’t have a deep bench this cycle so they’ll stick with Akin come hell or high water. It’s the way the party swings here.
Violet
Any word from Akin’s camp or the MO Republicans on whether or not Akin will hold on? They only have until Tuesday at 5 p.m., right. Bummer he couldn’t have saved these comments until Wednesday.
chopper
@MattF:
so if she floats, then she’s made of wood?
SatanicPanic
I really hope Roy Edroso handles this in his next Village Voice column
Yutsano
@Violet: FWIW this thing is blowing up my FB feed, so it must be getting notice in the St Louis/Kansas City area as well. I’m not saying it’s enough to turn the tide, but if they do as Tovarishch says and dig in with Akin this could be quite a ride. I’d love for Heitkamp in ND to somehow pin this to her opponent.
Roger Moore
@Pavonis:
You fail to remember that the Pope is a conservative. That means he sees the correct response to crisis as closing up ranks and doubling down on the status quo. If he were the kind of person who would reverse course when things are going badly, he never would have gotten into this mess in the first place. Of course, he probably wouldn’t have been elected Pope in the first place; the college of cardinals has been stacked with conservatives for a long time, so they weren’t going to elect a liberal as Pope.
chopper
@Nylund:
clearly, since the morning after pill and guys like RU-486 stop fertilization or implantation and are thus teh evil!, we need to also make it illegal for raped women to feel stress.
EconWatcher
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage:
Thanks for the helpful local insight. But tell me this: Even as red as Missouri has become, can Akin win after a comment like that?
dedc79
I’m waiting for an article in Slate about how Todd Akin is right, but for the wrong reasons. Or some garbage like that
jwb
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Presuming that both studies were attempting to determine the conception rate (rather than the conception rate being a secondary determination of some other study), it is more likely that the difference has to do with the differing methodologies to the studies. For instance, what counts as conception could easily be quite different in the two studies, and the ages of the subjects in the respective studies might have been quite different as well.
aimai
@Comrade Dread:
The problem with this solution is that it leads to more rape-murders.
aimai
Violet
Somewhat OT, there is a lot of tropical activity right now. Any bets on whether the Republican convention in Tampa next week is affected? That would crack me right up if they had to cancel or postpone or otherwise deal with a tropical system during the convention.
schrodinger's cat
OT. BTW was over at the Daily Dish and happened on an article Niall apologist for the British Empire Ferguson has written for Newsweek. The title is Obama’s gotta go. I didn’t read all of it, just the first pg. It is full of lies. What a bastard.
J.D. Rhoades
@Soonergrunt:
Ah, the General Hospital solution…
(wondering how many folks here will get the reference).
rlrr
@J.D. Rhoades:
Also known as the Biblical solution…
Mark S.
@schrodinger’s cat:
I skimmed it last night. It should really be NC-17 for the sloppy blowjob Niall gives Ryan at the end of it.
celticdragonchick
@beltane:
Yep. Fundy conservatives are real big believers in Just World Theory (The common fallacy holding that bad things happen to people to because they deserve it for some reason…while rich people are rich because they are virtuous and deserve it more).
Andrew Sullivan jumped on this a few minutes ago:
(Personal note: The hatred here for Sullivan is utterly irrational. He agrees with viewpoints of the front pagers here more then 80% of the time, and he is an OBOT par excellence…)
EconWatcher
@schrodinger’s cat:
Similarly, I’m pretty sure The Economist will endorse Romney/Ryan this year. The recent issue talking about how smart, serious, and courageous Ryan is pretty much clinches it, but I expected it anyway. They ensorsed Clinton in ’92, Dole in ’96, W in 2000, Kerry in 2004, and Obama in 2008.
See a pattern? They always endorse Dems to clean up the messes made by the Republicans they’ve endorsed, but then revert to the ‘pubs as soon as the world appears safe again.
I love the magazine for its international and fiancial coverage, but the editorial line has always combined the worst of “both sides do it,” Slate-style contrarianism, and glibertarianism.
Violet
The Dems are starting to tie Ryan to Akin, since they co-sponsored that restrictive abortion bill. And note that Ryan’s “personal opinion” is in agreement with Akin.:
jp7505a
Somewhat of a tagent but even Augusta National Golf club has now joined the 21st century and invited Condi and a business woman from S. Carolina to be members. maybe we can hope that the GOP at least progresses to the 10th century by November
chopper
@Yutsano:
well the innerweb stories are tying this bit to the bill he and ryan cosigned. given the recent rollout of ryan, this could have some legs.
god knows, obama’s campaign is going to see this as a gift. tie ryan to this crazy forced-birth shit.
J.D. Rhoades
@Mark S.:
Didn’t Newsweek do a cover story a couple of weeks ago about how Romney’s a “wimp”?
Seems like they’ve decided to substitute sensational covers and shit-stirring for actual journalism (if they ever did the latter, I don’t read Newsweek).
J.D. Rhoades
@chopper:
This needs to be in an Obama ad, stat.
raven
@jp7505a: I said they’d do it when they were ready and not before.
JGabriel
He’s a southern Repulbican; he supports capital punishment for everything but white
peoplecollar crimes..
quannlace
Oh yeah, is this his ‘Town Hall’ meeting? I wonder how vetted the crowd is?
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@EconWatcher:
Beats the hell outta me. I mean we talk about a certain “voting floor” nationally all the time (usually 45% or thereabouts). It’s really no different here except I’d say the Repup floor is substantially higher.
So what allowed Claire to get in in 2006? A small wave election helped. A weak candidate (Talent and Akin are cut from the same cloth). Lots of outside money to help Claire when it became apparent Talent was more vulnerable than originally expected.
Six years later, we probably won’t have a wave election effect…but, it’s clear that Rmoney isn’t a presidential candidate that will inspire a lot of normally-would-vote-Repup-if-they-cared-enough-today types to hussle to the polls. So, give that one to Claire. She’s facing a very weak candidate and at least Talent didn’t say something this stoopid so give that one to Claire. She’s got far more money than Akin but could get swamped with the expected SuperPAC tidal wave aimed against her. I’d rate that one a toss up.
I’ve always said she will lose because the state’s a helluva lot redder now than in 06 plus I was counting on minimal outside funding to help her while getting swamped with SuperPAC ads. Now I’m not so sure. I’ll temper that “not so sure” with the observation that she’ll need to run with this and make it a campaign issue from here on out and not be afraid of offending those people who will never vote for her, not something she’s good at.
The Thin Black Duke
@celticdragonchick: Sorry, but I take his cheerleading for the “Bell Curve” bullshit very personal. Call me “irrational”, but I refuse to be collateral damage for the greater good.
Chris
@Pavonis:
I think they’re hoping to keep enough Catholics in the third world on their side to make up for all the Westerners they’re losing.
celticdragonchick
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage:
Christ on a crutch! Your state may well elect a raving idiot who publicly calls federal education funding a “state 3 cancer”, wants to eliminate Pell Grants, student loans, federally funded meals for school kids(!!), as well as ditching all civil rights voting laws from 1960 onwards…and that was before he said women had sooper seekrit anti rape powers and he still had a lead in the polls!!
An awful lot of voters in your state are fucking raving insane reactionaries…and no matter how much it pisses you off, that kind of dynamic will push any politician towards the right who actually wants to get re-elected.
I personally admire Alan Grayson for speaking the truth on the House floor. It did not help with his re-election, however, and we got a teabagger instead. Keep that in mind when you complain about McCaskill.
Nemesis
@peach flavored shampoo:
Well, that aint what brave leftist blaggers who visit redstate are saying. My sources tell me that about half the cro magnons over there are pissed at Akin. Why, I dont know because what Akin said is the gop platform on wimmens issues.
WaterGirl
@blondie:Akin forgot that you only discuss that in “quiet rooms”.
shortstop
@raven: And they just happened to “be ready” shortly after this year’s giant dustup…hilariously telling themselves that by letting a few months go by, they could successfully pretend they were utterly unmoved by outside pressure. It’s just a coincidence, everybody! We had a revelation out of nowhere!
Sparrowgal
Joe Scarborough and Mika are going all “Chicken Little, the sky is falling” about both the Akin travesty and, amazingly, the new crisis in the Sea of Galilee. Apparently, the naked gallivanting and “messing all over this holy site” by Evangelicals portends the demise of Republicans’ chances at the ballot box this year, comparable to the 2006 Mark Foley scandal. Mika and Mark Halperin dragged out the lick-spittle fire extinguisher, and managed to put out Joe’s hair-on-fire before the studio was completely engulfed. Just wow.
shortstop
@EconWatcher: Yes. :(
raven
@shortstop: Yea, it was the bitching and moaning here that forced their hand.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@celticdragonchick:
When were we told not to criticize our party? We’re fucking Democrats, it’s what we do.
The only way to remind Claire once in a while that she’s a Democrat is to criticize her for things she does that deserve criticizing. Sheesh, nobody here expects her to be Chuck Shumer but we do expect her to Do. No. Harm. when she opens her mouth and channels Blanche Lincoln. It didn’t help Blanche get re-elected and it won’t help Claire.
And I should point out that an awful lot of voters in an awful lot of states are fucking, raving insane reactionaries. I simply have the sad plight of living amongst them. Tell me something I didn’t already know.
Roger Moore
@EconWatcher:
Or you could say they’re contrarians who always endorse the opposition party.
shortstop
@celticdragonchick: Well, I don’t live in Missouri, and I’m in front of the pack when it comes to pragmatism about blue dogs in red states–they gotta do what they gotta do and it’s pointless to pretend that more progressive people are electable in a lot of these locales–but I reserve the right to mock her on librul blogs when it comes to the “I’m not going to the Democratic National Convention” announcement. That one was just laughable.
shortstop
@raven: No, not here. There’s actually a world outside this blog. Check it out.
Roger Moore
@jp7505a:
Only if you mean 10th Century BC. I don’t think they’re going to make it to AD any time soon.
Raven
@shortstop: Yea yea, tell me all about it.
shortstop
@Roger Moore: You’re way out of line, mister. The earth is only 6,000 years old.
Redshift
@EconWatcher:
Even if there’s a better candidate, having to start up a new campaign from scratch at this point will still be a big disadvantage.
The Other Chuck
Naw. Prosecuting every raped woman for aborting her rapist’s baby if she doesn’t get pregnant, that’s more his style.
celticdragonchick
@The Thin Black Duke:
I have read nothing over the past ten years that suggests to me that Sullivan is a racist. He takes the view that the research done in the Bell Curve should not be off limits to inquiry simply because of cultural conventions (He took much the same position on the Palin pregnancy issue after numerous statements given by Palin on the birth of her last child did not add up)
Whatever. He likes playing the fearless contrarian who refuses to yield intellectual freedom to public pressure. I do think the act gets old after awhile, and I also think that some subjects possibly are better left alone (Jaret Diamond does a great job of eviscerating racial arguments for civilization building contra Charles Murray)
In any event, I understand Sully has this “quirk” and I ignore that particular issue, much as I ignore annoying things from my friends while they ignore the more annoying things I tend to do (hopefully). As I said before, I haven’t read anything of his that suggests to me he is some sort of crypto racist. Since I don’t want to derail the thread, I will say nothing more about it here. If someone really wants to show where I am wrong, I will be happy to list my email.
Redshift
@Sparrowgal:
Wow, I must have missed that part of Revelations!
shortstop
@Redshift: Well, the primary was only August 7; if one of Akin’s original opponents replaces him, it’s not really starting a campaign from scratch.
@Violet: Why only until Tuesday at 5:00?
The Other Chuck
@celticdragonchick: So you wouldn’t have a problem with an honest debate over whether you’re just a walking incubator and really possess the intelligence to make your own decisions? That when people make arguments supporting such a position, that others should just seriously nod their heads and continue to accept such people into polite society?
I’m also not sure Sully is a racist. From watching him titter and giggle on TV everytime he says something inflammatory, I think he’s just an old-fashioned troll.
celticdragonchick
@The Other Chuck:
Welcome to the new Inquisition.
CS Lewis
Violet
@shortstop: Missouri law:
Mark S.
You go to war with the rape apologists you have—not the rape apologists you might want or wish to have at a later time.
Redshift
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Kind of amazing that the one time they quote DougJ, they pick probably the mildest statement he’s ever posted about politics.
Poopyman
Well that’s just silly. Those rapists don’t release those hormones themselves, ya know. Clearly, this makes the victim the abortionist.
Linda Featheringill
@celticdragonchick:
I’ve often wondered if Andrew said No at some point.
shortstop
@Violet: Great news. Thanks!
Face
Yup, and probably will. I dont think non-Missourians understand how back-assward the state has become. While he wont be praised for those comments, he certainly wont be vilified for more than a 24 hour period.
celticdragonchick
@The Other Chuck:
We are having that debate and I welcome the opportunity to use it as a weapon to crush Akins into the dust.
I was suggesting earlier that Murray should have left well enough alone..not to mention that his arguments and methodology have been swept aside by others (Dr Diamond specifically, although he is one among dozens)
Omnes Omnibus
@celticdragonchick: Other people may well find that this quirk or tendency is enough to outweigh everything else.
Punchy
There’s quite a bit of funny in there. Can I suscribe to your newsletter?
celticdragonchick
@Face:
I hope you are wrong (although I would not bet against you)
It didn’t take long for the Romneybot 2.0 campaign to run screaming away from Akins, so they must be aware of how radioactive those comments look to sane people…
celticdragonchick
@Omnes Omnibus:
Possibly so. As in all things, YMMV.
Face
Nah. Sarah Steeleman, meet David Koch, and his $100 million dollar cashier’s check. It’s that easy to beat Claire in MO.
The Thin Black Duke
@celticdragonchick: Fair enough. And I rather not derail the thread either, especially since I value your commentary.
Amir Khalid
@jp7505a:
I notice that of the two women, neither is IBM chief executive Ginni Rometty — who, earlier this year, was pointedly not invited to join, even though IBM sponsors the Masters tournament there every year and its CEO is traditionally offered a membership.
celticdragonchick
@The Thin Black Duke:
I appreciate that :)
Chris
@Nylund:
Me too. It took me a long time to come around to that point of view, but I also don’t think they view it primarily about saving human life, or that they see abortion as really being worse than premarital sex (which explains why so many of them love to pile onto single mothers, calling them sluts, moochers and the like, even though they’re obviously women who “chose life” despite the fact that they had other options – something that should make them heroes to the cause, and yet somehow doesn’t).
To them, morality is all about doing What God Tells You (which in real life translates to what the clergy or congregation tell you, since very few of them are actually willing to read the Bible and think it through for themselves, and those that do go to seminary or whatever pretty much just learn to recite the rationalizations of others). Killing an unborn baby may be a sin, therefore, but not a sin against the baby, rather against God (since the baby’s life, like everything else in the world, belongs to him) – and disobeying God by killing a baby isn’t really worse than disobeying him by having sex, or whatever.
Not sure at all where the theology comes from or how much it squares with the actual Bible, but from long experience hanging out with SoCons I eventually pieced together that that’s what it came down to.
David
Woman, 29, Still in 10-Year Coma, Is Pregnant by a Rapist
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/25/nyregion/woman-29-still-in-10-year-coma-is-pregnant-by-a-rapist.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
eric
@David: But where is the evidence that she said “no”?
ETA: snark.
Napoleon
@schrodinger’s cat:
See Krugman’s take on that at his blog.
The Moar You Know
A close relative of mine, one William Bradford Huie, wrote about the Saturday night line of black men being marched into the death chamber for their appointment with the electric chair. He interviewed one, a life changing experience for him and for me, decades later, on reading it. Not a one of those young men was getting burned for any other reason than fucking a white woman. Almost always with consent, I might add, until they got caught.
So I’m not wondering too much about Akin’s support for giving rapists the chair, so long as those rapists are black and the victims white. It’s an old-time Southern Tradition (R), just like everything else about the goddamned Tea Party fuckers.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@The Moar You Know:
Is there a link to that piece? Or something one could purchase?
Sad_Dem
As someone who knows someone who became pregnant from being raped, I want to punch Todd Akin in the face as many times as I can.
celticdragonchick
@The Moar You Know:
Do you have link to the interview? I would really, really like to read that. Thanks.
Paul in KY
@Balconesfault: Clayton Williams would get elected today in Texas.
Chris
@celticdragonchick:
“Ain’t nothing worse than a monster who thinks he’s right with God.”
Captain Malcolm Reynolds, shorter C. S. Lewis.
celticdragonchick
@Sad_Dem:
I am so very sorry. You are why we are going to fight this pile of human waste.
Linda Featheringill
@Sparrowgal:
Skinny dipping in the Sea of Galilee:
You’re right. The Republicans are in a snit about this. Personally, I don’t think it’s a big deal, but that’s just me.
dance around in your bones
These gawd-botherers just don’t want anyone to have fun.
Well, unless you are secreting and enjoying your rape. Then you asked for it. So, ya know, ya just gotta pay up.
Violet
@Amir Khalid: I noticed that too. I guess the club is acting like a petulant teenager. “Okay, fine, I’ll wash the dishes, but I’m not going to wash them when you tell me to. I’ll wash them when I want.” Except with admitting women instead of washing dishes. They’ll admit who they choose, not who anyone else thinks they should.
@Face:
If it stays in the news and Ryan is tied firmly to Akin’s comments, to Romney/Ryan’s detriment, then it might become more of an issue. The GOP is running away from it as fast as they can, but Ryan can only run so far, due to co-sponsoring a bill about it with Akin.
Not denying that MO is backwards, but other issues and races are now tied to it, and that might change things a bit.
celticdragonchick
@Linda Featheringill:
I am not understanding the uproar on this either.
? Martin
@David:
Obviously she consented or she wouldn’t be pregnant. I mean, not once did she say ‘no’.
Paul in KY
@Pavonis: Also John Paul II’s election.
Ben Cisco
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage: Tag!
Jeffro
Every time I think the GOP couldn’t embarrass us more globally, they outdo themselves. Anti-evolution, anti-critical thinking(?!), and now “legitimate rapes don’t cause pregnancy”.
How do Republicans ever go on cruises? Aren’t they afraid of sailing off the edge of the world??
scav
@Linda Featheringill: bizarre, but perhaps interpretable in light of the corporate/traditional/establishment GOP worrying about maintaining its attractiveness to the insurgent teatard hoi polloi?
Paul in KY
@celticdragonchick: I think it is the ‘Branson Effect’ at work.
Paul in KY
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage: I’m here in Kentucky, so I feel your pain :-)
wesindc
I know exactly what you’re talking about. My brother and I had to endure “Catholicism” classes. My brother was never very stable at that point of his life, dealing with schizophrenia and being subjected to abortion films that involved pics of fetus’s sent him over the edge to the point he was “going to cut us all up with a knife and we would look just like the pics he saw at school” I was of course dropped because I questioned everything the teacher spouted. He went on for a year and finally my mother had the right mind to realize that it wasn’t helping him at all.
Paul in KY
@Redshift: There’s a lesson there for DougJ, if he wants to get quoted by those outfits.
Paul in KY
@Amir Khalid: I think Ms. Rometty is suspected of having Democratic sympathies.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@Paul in KY:
I went to HS in West Virginia. When we moved here, it dawned on me that WV was hardly unique, thus I coined the phrase “Appalachia is a state of mind.”
Offensive to many white folks, you betcha. Accurate? In my experience, you betcha.
wrb
@Balconesfault:
Thinking about the history of this ancient belief, you might really be onto something with the change. Mass rape as the conclusion of a sack was standard. It wasn’t just a bit of fun, it completed the humiliation of theme who had been fighting to protect these women, and- at least in Mediterranean societies- seriously fucked up the societies ability to go forward. Membership in the tribe, status and any claims to property flowed your legitimacy of you decent from your tribe-member-in-good-standing father.
If the women you had been defending enjoyed sex with their conquerers your humiliation was complete. If they had the conquerers’ children and they were admitted your economic and social structures were fucked.
However if not getting pregnant meant that the women probably didn’t enjoy it, as they had not lubricated, that meant that there were women who hadn’t been ruined by the experience & with whom society could go foreword.
The idea that babies come from the mixing of the willingly-created sex juices of both man and woman isn’t illogical, however incorrect.
The Moar You Know
@celticdragonchick:
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage:
That interview is in one of his books. All out of print these days, but you can still find them. He’s probably the greatest writer about the South that ever lived, and hardly anyone knows his work save for “Three Lives For Mississippi”, which got turned into that movie “Mississippi Burning”.
His best work by far, for my money, was “The Execution of Private Slovik”.
He was unfortunately also a staunch opponent of both FDR, the TVA (for personal reasons that affected my family) and the New Deal, and was an early employer of William Buckley. He’s claimed by the conservatives, but I’ve read all his books and I’ll be damned if I an find anything in them that’s “conservative” save the idea that killing people for kicks isn’t a good idea. And he fucking hated the Klan with a vengeance. They burned a cross on his lawn the year I was born.
shortstop
@Paul in KY: He would have gotten elected then if he hadn’t refused to shake Ann Richards’ hand. Blatant discourtesy to a lady, not the rape joke, did him in.
The Moar You Know
@The Moar You Know: Pretty sure it’s in “Wolf Whistle and Other Stories”. Not positive, though.
artem1s
just saw a picture of Akin. when is the general population going to finally get the memo on comb-overs? that thing is Trump full of fail.
Yutsano
@Linda Featheringill: I think it’s more the official mission issue. What the wingnuts think I have no clue.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@The Moar You Know:
Thanks muchly.
Paul in KY
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage: I don’t know if it’s just ‘Appalachia Thinking’. Alot of old antibellum stuff in there too. More ‘Confederate Traitor’ thinking, IMO.
Paul in KY
@shortstop: Did not know that. Thank you for the info.
shortstop
@Paul in KY: The rape joke did not help, however. ;)
WereBear
@Sparrowgal: I do love that mental picture. Thanks!
TenguPhule
<blockquote>Instead we have natives who kill a woman with a shotgun, then chop up her body into little pieces and dump it in the Missouri River. Then never worry about the consequences because local law enforcement is a joke and it only took the Feds in St Louis to open a RICO investigation that rolled the wife of the killer.
So Missouri is the Hills have Eyes, only with the right number of eyes per head?
TenguPhule
The moment Obama declared his Campaign theme was “Forward”, the Republicans immediately decided this meant “LUDECRIOUS SPEED BACKWARDS” and achieved the 1.81 Gigawatts of Stupidity needed to retroactively time travel to the dark ages.
ruemara
@J.D. Rhoades: Oh goddess. A Luke and Laura joke. Even at 10 I thought that was a touch of fuckedupedness. But with a cleaner, more Christian raised phraseology.
Smedley the uncertain
@Omnes Omnibus: ..And many may just move past to get to the rest of his stuff… Much as I do with the vitriol that occasionally flows here.
AA+ Bonds
I would assume so, yes
That would play very well for him