Thanks to Zandar for reading Kevin Drum so I didn’t have to (though I did actually follow the link and read what Drum said).
The issue of IRRESPONSIBLE SPECULATION about Romney’s tax returns comes down to one thing: if Romney doesn’t want people speculating about what’s in his tax returns he should release the damn things. Not releasing them invites speculation.
I feel this way about most stuff.
If elites are sad that people are making fun of them on Facebook and Twitter, then they should stop running the economy into the ground, starting pointless wars, and publicly blowing each other on morning shows (they can do whatever they want in the dressing room). Being a craven, arrogant, incompetent toadie invites public criticism.
If Chris Hitchens’ friends are sad that people shit on the supposed great man when he died, they should have encourage him to be less of an asshole while he was still alive.
And if Kevin Drum is sad that people are calling him a clueless, Vichy liberal, who is angling for a mainstream pundit gig or Think Tank sinecure, he should stop acting like one.
That’s just how things work.
I’m sure that in a less Hobbesian — or whatever other word Kevin Drum uses to criticize contemporary reality — world, you could refuse to release your tax forms without people wondering what was in them, you could fuck up our entire civilization and still have people respect you for your money and position, you could be a bigoted misogynist drunken douchebag for your entire life and universally eulogized as a great man when you died, you could carry water for the right-wing while still being admired as a liberal lion by the readers of Mother Jones.
But in this world, you can’t.
David Koch
Hope Solo just made one the greatest saves in history
Soonergrunt
I moved my post so as not to interfere with this or ABL’s, both of which are quite good.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
Again, I love the fact that for a good decade or more, GOP has never been properly called on blatant malfeasance and dishonesty, as the dreaded ‘L’ word is such a shocking and appalling thing to apply to genuine policy differences and politics as usual!
BUT…
Reid is summarily and quickly labeled a bit fat fucking liar by everyone with a microphone, with the word ‘Liar’ and “lying’ and “lies” almost a must whenever talking about Reid now.
Love that Liberal Media, yah?
The Other Chuck
Drum is just, ah, drumming up controversy with a little centrist scolding of Harry Reid. But he still does reserve the loudest drumbeat (sorry I can’t resist) for Mitt:
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/08/mitt-romney-sure-does-lie-lot-doesnt-he
BGinCHI
Drum thinks he’s defending a principle but he’s really defending the unprincipled.
It’s a Both Sides Do It with a half twist in the piker position.
DougJ
@Soonergrunt:
Sorry to step on yours….I read Zandar’s and went into a rage.
Villago Delenda Est
Oh, boo hoo, Kevin.
Stop being a dumbass. Rmoney can solve this damn problem in a motherfucking heartbeat by releasing his fucking tax returns.
Which he won’t, because there’s dynamite in them that will blow his worthless parasite ass clear to fucking Jupiter.
Soonergrunt
@DougJ: It’s no problem. Mine should hit at 5:00 Eastern, supposing that the auto-poster is working properly. You and Zandar are saying what needs saying. People should read it.
@Villago Delenda Est: What he said.
c u n d gulag
On Romney says, and on his commercials, I call “BULLMITT!”
That’s all his campaign is – total bullMitt.
He hopes to bullMitt the rubes into voting against their best interests again.
And, he just might succeed.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Not to mention stop trying to make Hitchen’s corpse into a Christian saint.
pseudonymous in nc
@David Koch:
If your history is fairly constrained. Anyway, that’s done, and while I won’t say the US got an undeserved gold, I do think they were bloody lucky.
gogol's wife
I’m still sorry for Drum for losing his cat.
Just Some Fuckhead
I had one of my rightwing friends tell me the other day that he didn’t dare post about certain subjects on Facebook because his Federal co-workers/FB friends could potentially sue him for expressing opinions about, say, homosexuality or other hot button issues.
I asked him, wouldn’t it just be easier not to be a bigot?
danah gaz (fka gaz)
@gogol’s wife: Me too. Now if only he’d not compound the tragedy by losing his readership.
raven
@Soonergrunt: AHA! Autoposter. Now I get it.
danah gaz (fka gaz)
@Just Some Fuckhead: Sadly, I’m not aware of any evidence that supports your hypothesis.
mainmati
Thomas Hobbes, 16th century philosopher who said that the natural state of man before the creation of central government was “poor, nasty, brutish and short”. Kevin meant it as taxes being the price we pay for civilization, something the Goopers don’t care about.
OT but important US Women win Gold Medal in soccer. Yeay!!!
jl
I am a broken record today, but I think the real issue here is simple.
The GOP uses bullying tactics to get away with fetid dishonest BS in their propaganda war. The trick is to bully people into accepting sophistry, double think, threats, and patent BS so the GOP can basically just say whatever nonsense they want and get people to swallow it whole.
The GOP must be trusted, their terms must be accepted, their ground rules cannot be be questioned.
Trust Romney on BS: mandatory.
Trust Reid on what a guy done done told him: outrageous.
If you are a cowardly chickenshit, you cannot deal with the GOP’s bullying tactics.
For me, that is the essence of this idiotic flap over what Reid is doing.
Edit: and yes, I am very sad about Drum’s cat. That is a different issue, though.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Villago Delenda Est:
Which brings us to the next point; fuck you Mitt, you Donald Trump wannabe. for turning something as deadly serious as the election of the president of the United States into your damn little whinny rich boy vanity project.
Bo hoo, Mitt if the public knows the truth about you, you can’t be president. Then sit down, shut the fuck up and let a better qualified man run for office.
Just Some Fuckhead
@danah gaz (fka gaz): Supervisors/subordinates, Federal discrimination laws, protected behavior, etc. It was quite a lengthy explanation which is why my “wouldn’t it be easier not to be a bigot” line was pure fucking gold.
He’s a Paultard but otherwise a good guy- coming along pretty well, although slowly, in his political evolution. It was for his birthday I originally did the drpaul2012.wordpress.com site.
Arrik
Way back when he ran his own blog, I became pretty annoyed with Kevin Drum for his ridiculous, sensible moderate stance on so many issues during the worst excesses of the Bush administration. I stopped keeping track of him, and was quite surprised when I learned he had been given a regular gig at MoJo. At the time, I assumed that it was because he had finally become radicalized. Having seen him in action over the last few years, I guess that it says more about how MoJo has changed than how Kevin has changed. Because he really hasn’t changed at all.
I do feel bad about the cat, though. Damn coyotes.
David Koch
I can’t believe Dougie and Mistermix aren’t in Rochester wearing face paint and their abby wambach jerseys
khead
@gogol’s wife:
Me too.
But I am beginning to wonder if part of the reason the cat is gone is because Inkblot complained the coyote wasn’t fighting fair and then tried to reason with it.
jl
@khead:
Any dog or cat would be smarter than that.
dedc79
Inter-liberal-blogger-warfare strikes me as a collossal waste of time. I’m not saying you don’t have a point, but it seems like our attention is best directed elsewhere (for example, at the crazies on the other side).
If Drum was capable of influencing people on the fence about who to vote for, then sure, maybe it’s worth reigning him in. But he writes for Mother #$@%ing Jones.
I would hold fire on people like Drum or Yglesias and go after the Kesslers, Friedmans, Brooks, etc…
mainmati
@David Koch: Rochester? Game was in Wembley in London (and I don’t mean Ontario either).
Njorl
@Arrik: I don’t think Drum is really a centrist or even moderate. He’s just too squeamish. If he’s being kicked in the groin he feels whoever is doing the kicking has demeaned himself, and that is sufficient justice.
Just Some Fuckhead
@khead: I was frankly shocked when KD pejoratively labeled it a “coyote” instead of the fairer “Prairie Wolf”.
David Koch
@pseudonymous in nc: it’s not just me, it’s treading world wide on Twitter: “Hope Solo Save Heard Around the World”
Jacquie
@mainmati: I think he was referring to the rather large following Abby has as an upstate-NYer.
Villago Delenda Est
@jl:
Yup. They recognize implacable predators instinctively.
Something Kevin Drum does not.
eemom
Y’all should stop wasting your time spluttering over Drum and his fellow worthless emmessemm wannabe concern trolls, and go read the splendiforous piece by Joe Conason — who unlike them is not a p*ssy-ass pearl-clutching twat — about Harry Reid and Romney’s taxes over at http://www.truthdig.com.
And one of y’all FPers should link it because it’s really fucking GOOD.
(Also too, Conason unlike the rest of them has NEVER sucked, even when he was at Salon.)
Redshift
@Villago Delenda Est:
As I was saying at the end of the last thread, one thing that fascinates me is that Romney released one year, said he would release the current year when it was done, and then filed an extension so it wouldn’t be “done” yet.
Which means that he will either release the 2011 return or refuse to release it at the height of the campaign, reigniting the whole issue with the Democrats barely having to lift a finger.
By all accounts, this is comes from Romney, not some campaign strategy. He is simply the worst candidate of my lifetime.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Just Some Fuckhead: I think it has to do with the lack of prairie here in southern CA.
wrb
Fucking clueless Vichy liberal namby-pamby wankery.
DEMANDS speculation about what vile criminal bestial horrors would cause the Twit to refuse to come clean.
Goblue72
DougJ is back and he’s here for your dick.
danah gaz (fka gaz)
@eemom: more specific link please? It seems that the summaries for each of the FP posts (aside from the top left) have the byline omitted.
ETA: maybe it’s this one? http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_missing_evidence_in_romneys_tax_records_20120809/?ln
Catsy
@Just Some Fuckhead: Can we not snark about the death of the man’s cat?
I’m all for mocking Drum for his faux-centrism schtick, but let’s leave his poor pet the fuck out of it.
quannlace
Blitzer on CNN this afternoon, citing their poll showing Obama way ahead. And then of course, had to have on the oblligatory Romney spokesman babbling ‘ He hasn’t had a chance to get his message across to the American people, etc. etc..’ Variations of ‘if they only knew the REAL Romney, people would finally, you know, actually like him.’ And finding someway to blame it all on Obama.
This nonsense just makes me nuts! He’s been running for President for HOW many years? And the man still can’t get out a coherent message??
NancyDarling
I’m sorry about Kevin’s cat, too, but I’m really, really, really glad you wrote this post DougJ. I agree with every word.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Catsy: If you can hear me up on that high horse, I didn’t say a word about the man’s pussy.
Villago Delenda Est
@quannlace:
The REAL Rmoney is revealed in his tax returns for the last 10 years.
We’ll never get to see the REAL Rmoney, because the REAL Rmoney can’t be elected to the highly sought after position of dog catcher.
Josie
I’m so glad to see you back, DougJ, and glad that you are in fighting trim. I find myself reading your stuff and saying “yeah!” every time. Thanks.
Catsy
@Just Some Fuckhead: Whatever, dude. If you want to try arguing that your “coyote/prairie wolf” comment wasn’t snarking off of Inkblot’s death, knock yourself out–but don’t expect anyone to buy it. Don’t bother defending it, just nut up and own the fact that you made a tasteless joke, and move on.
Quicksand
Hey DougJ, I’m sure you won’t mind if the police — and the public for that matter — get to inspect your house and read your emails.
Why would there be a problem if you have nothing to hide?
Just Some Fuckhead
@Catsy: Shorter Catty: I’m just striking out at anything that moves now. We all know why.
Yer seriously telling me I gotta own up to a tasteless joke? Are you still hung over from last night? When the fuck have I ever tiptoed through anyone’s sacred garden? You need to calm the fuck down and realize who yer talking to.
WJS
@Just Some Fuckhead: Come on, man. Everyone knew what you were talking about.
Shift them goalposts much? Dayum. You ain’t tough.
Dennis SGMM
@quannlace:
Romney’s spokeshole did him no favors.
Mitt hasn’t had the chance to get his message across? What the hell is his message? He’s been running for years now and he’s contradicted himself so many times that his message is still unknown. Sweet Jesus in the foothills on a tricycle, Ron Paul has been more consistent than Romney.
Who in hell is the real Romney? Is he the Massachusetts governor who signed mandatory healthcare into law or is he the one who now rails against the ACA? The real Romney seems to occupy three dimensional space, but not much else. He makes “weather vane McCain” seem like a rock.
eemom
omg, fuckie’s back. Like really BACK.
hey-la, hey-la….
Just Some Fuckhead
@eemom: These people are dumber than you, if that’s possible.
Catsy
@Just Some Fuckhead: Anything that moves? Hung over? Sacred garden? What in the unholy fuck are you blathering about?
It’s like reading Palin’s word salad, but with fewer redundant conjunctions.
Quicksand
Ah, trolls trollin’ the trolls. Good stuff.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Catsy: Was that another Catsy showing her ass in ABL’s thread last night?
Turgidson
You know, if those on our “team” who our so compelled to be moral scolds about Reid and Priorities’s recent brass knuckle tactics just limited themselves to a quick note like: “it’s regrettable that our political discourse can’t be respectful and issues-based, but here we are” rather than going on and on about how awful Reid/Priorities are, I wouldn’t be spitting with rage at their counterproductive idiocy.
I’ve watched my “team” get buried by lies and smears for long enough. Not only do I think Reid and Priorities are entirely “in bounds” with what they’re doing right now (Reid may be lying, but we don’t know right now. So the fuck what. Priorities’s ad pushes the envelope to make an entirely fair point about what Mittens’s style of capitalism has wrought. So the fuck what), but they’d have to be a LOT more scurrilous underhanded before I started getting antsy about it.
When one side lies continuously without a conscience and is allowed to simply make shit up without facing scrutiny, then I am willing to tolerate a temporary, modest abdication of truth and decency in order to stop them from ruining this country more than they already have. And in my view, neither Reid nor Priorities have abandoned the truth (yet, pending resolution of Reid’s claim). So fuck the pearl clutching fucks. Sit the fuck on the sidelines if you can’t help but shoot at your own team, dipshits.
General Stuck
@eemom:
Yep, looks like it. Wonder when the new tailspin begins and ends. Then another 6 month rehab, and we do it all over again.
Villago Delenda Est
Ok, this thread has degenerated into posters yelling at posters, and not at Kevin Drum, or DougJ, or even Rmoney or Obama.
So we can safely close it out now.
Catsy
@Just Some Fuckhead: …”showing her ass”…?
I give up. The output from your insult generator superficially resembles English, but it’s incomprehensible to those of us who don’t speak the Fuckheadian dialect. I think you were better off snarking about dead pets; at least then we could tell what you were trying to say.
Just Some Fuckhead
@General Stuck: If this means Stuck and eemom gonna be blogcommentdating again, maybe it was worth it. :)
andrewsomething
So it always is with the Balloon Juice crowd. Kevin Drum is a Vichy liberal! Matt Yglesias is against barber licenses!
Meanwhile, the entire notion of a reasonably secure middle-class is being destroyed in this country. Trillion dollar scams are being hatched by possible VP (doubt he’ll get it but the fact anyone thinks he might is scary enough) candidate Paul Ryan.
All this liberal in-fighting and nit-picking might have impressed college teaching assistants, but it doesn’t impress the millions of Americans who are dealing with things more pressing than Upper-Class White People problems.
Thymezone
Yeah, Doug. Pour it on. What could possibly feel better than outrage, especially when it’s over essentially nothing important (explanation to follow) and it’s all blogoverse introspection and navelgazing, as only BJ can do it.
Look, nobody on this blog including me can wipe Drum’s ass when it comes to factual accuracy, old fashioned journoethics, and reluctance to jump on stupid bandwagons. The guy is a throwback and one of the last of his breed. He is in the mold of Murrow and Cronkite. You wish you could be as good as he is.
But .. the point about the Reid thing is more or less well taken. Reid is being a kick-em-in-the-balls politician, and who among real Dems doesn’t respect that? I think Harry is doing his best work right now. But the fact is, Drum is right … Reid is playing the GOP’s game of Fuck You politics and it isn’t pretty.
But here’s the bottom line … shut up. Just shut up about it. What you think about Drum is about as important as what I think about Christian Mingle commercials. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody. What’s important today is who is winning the news cycle, and it’s us, and we should just be glad that we have guys as solid as Drum on our side even when he doesn’t agree with Harry Reid. Get it, Doug? You really can hold two opposing ideas in your head at the same time. Honest. I am not shitting you.
Turgidson
@andrewsomething:
Which is precisely why Drum should stop undermining his purported side with his big sad about how Reid’s a meanie who he’s just sure is lying just because.
Right this minute, Romney and/or a Romney surrogate is lying about something important and it is probably going unchallenged. If Drum wants to help avert the ruin that a Romney presidency would foist upon us, he should be focusing on those lies rather than falsely accusing our side of lying and getting the fucking vapors about it.
Beating these assholes might require our side to get our hands dirty. So fucking be it.
WJS
@Thymezone:
Oh. My. God.
Fellate much?
Turgidson
@Thymezone:
This is obtuse. The whole point of this pissing contest is that we’re winning the news cycle in spite of Drum’s current idiocy, which only has the purpose of undermining our offensive on the topic. I don’t have the abiding dislike for Drum that some do – I think he’s generally OK – but he’s pulling a Kessler-sized fuckup on this one.
It’s not about agreeing or not with Harry Reid. It’s about someone who’s supposed to be on our side directing his moral outrage at the wrong fucking person for no fucking good reason. It’s not possible to call Reid a liar based on the facts as we know them, but that’s not stopping Drum. He’s being an idiot in this instance, and it’s not a complete nothing burger – the taxes thing, and Reid’s fanning the flames, has driven multiple news cycles and forced Romney to whine like the overgrown brat that he is. The friendly fire Drum and some others are directing at Reid is counterproductive.
Benen’s squishy about Reid’s tactics too, but he hasn’t called Reid a liar based on his own horoscope reading or whatever the fuck Drum is basing his idiocy on. And he’s keeping his focus 100% on Romney’s whoppers.
WJS
@Thymezone:
Oh. My. God.
Fellate much?
Thymezone
And “our side” can’t prevail unless every single person on our side agrees with everyone else. Right? Isn’t that what you mean? You can’t fucking tolerate the disagreement of a guy who sets the standard for journalistic ethics in the blog world .. and who is know to almost noone outside of that relatively small world .. because, what? Because you are a goddammed loudmouth BJ commenter and you just can’t help yourself? What the FUCK is the matter with you? How many people do you think even know who Kevin Drum is outside of the blog cult and a few political junkies? Stupid asshole.
Thymezone
Great job, Doug. You’ve played up to your worst audience of barking hyenas. Seven years here, and this is the best you can do? You should make about two more posts, and then retire. Get a new hobby.
Upper West
Dear Doug,
Great post. The best kind of righteous anger. It is no longer possible to take the “high ground.” The Tumulty’s and Drums will push false equivalency even with stuff like Reid’s statement, which can’t be shown to be false, so you might as well go with the Soptic cancer story (which sent Tumulty into the vapors on “On Point” yesterday)
They simply won’t call the GOP vastly greater liars, so there is no reason to moderate what Dems put out.
kc
@Arrik: P@Just Some Fuckhead:
Asshole.
Libby Spencer
As I’ve said before, I rather like Drum. Maybe because I remember the pre-MoJo Kevin so well. But he so deserved this gorgeous rant. Thanks for saying this so I don’t have to.
Catsy
@Thymezone:
…BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Not quite as sycophantic as this gem, but still unintentionally hilarious.
No, you relentless idiot, Drum is not right, and for reasons that have very little to do with the tongue bath you’re giving Drum in this comment.
Drum says Reid is probably not telling the truth. Why? Because Drum doesn’t think his claim is plausible. Why? Because stuff! Never mind the fact that Reid isn’t making a claim about Mitt Romney’s taxes, he’s making a claim that someone he trusts as a reliable source told him this.
Drums also says Reid is making an unfalsifiable claim. But that is only logically sound if Reid is claiming that someone told him X. If Reid is claiming X itself–where X is “Romney paid little or no income taxes during this time”–then the claim is absolutely falsifiable. It’s just that the only person who can falsify it is Mitt Romney, and he refuses to produce the evidence that would do so.
Because shut up, that’s why!
Sometimes I have a hard time telling the difference between the spoofs, the career trolls, and the gifted amateurs around here.
Thoughtcrime
psssst….don’t tell Kevin….
WASHINGTON – A top aide to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) provided new details Wednesday on the identity of Reid’s source for the claim that Mitt Romney did not pay taxes for 10 years. Romney has since called on Reid to release the name of the source.
“This person is an investor in Bain Capital, a Republican also, and somebody who has been dealing with Romney’s company for a long, long time and he has direct knowledge of this,” said Reid aide Jose Parra, referring to Romney’s tax returns.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/09/harry-reid-mitt-romney-tax-returns_n_1762255.html
Reid can do this for weeks.
He’s hosting a game show about Romney’s taxes — “What’s My Lie?”
2 down and 8 to go.
Turgidson
@Thymezone:
The spittle-flecked rants I’m spewing out have nothing to do with whether everyone agrees or not. Drum is free to think whatever he pleases, but I think he’s being a moron when he accuses Reid of lying because, well just because he says so, and then doubling down on it. It’s undermining an effective tactic that’s helped win us several news cycles. Drum can think it’s shady if he wants, and say so, but the pious accusations that Reid is lying are what have me red in the face.
What’s wrong with me? Yeah, I’ll gladly admit that I’m spitting mad and ranting about it, because our political discourse, which has had the aroma of an open sewer as long as I’ve been paying attention, has turned so rancid I just can’t take it anymore. And 99.9% of it comes from the Republicans. And I see our erstwhile allies hyperventilating and directing their outrage at their own side the second we put some brass knuckles on and hit back. And that bugs the hell out of me. Bad enough we have to deal with dipshits like Mark Halperin doing it every day.
Here’s what’s the matter with me:
1) For decades, our “loyal opposition” has freely and gleefully spread lies, disgraceful smears and rank bullshit about Democratic candidates and hardly ever been taken to task for it. Never has that been more true than this year, where the Romney campaign is founded upon lies, his entire stump speech is filled with lies, and he’s even lying about his own background even when evidence to the contrary is in the public record. And he’s mostly getting away with it. I mean, for fuck’s sake, Kessler chose to believe a proven liar at his word over signed SEC documents. That’s what we’re dealing with here.
2) For the most part, our side has never responded in kind, even when the fucking truth is on our side.
3) This year, for what seems like the first time, the Obama campaign and various Democrats are giving as good as they get. And their haymakers have the benefit of being true, or close enough to be fair game in politics, at least in my view.
4) Some of our erstwhile allies seem nearly as upset about the comparatively trivial liberties the Obama campaign and PAC have taken in some of their (quite effective) ads, or with Reid’s Romney-baiting gambit, as they are about the neverending Republican shitstorm of lies.
What’s wrong with me is that nothing the Democrats have done, arguably shady or not, comes close to the shit the Republicans are saying about Obama every single goddamned day. So any energy spent accusing Reid of lying (note, that’s what bothers me the most…not “disagreement” as you keep saying), when we have no reason to think he is, rather than attacking Romney and/or exposing his lies, is energy wasted, if not harmful.
You said yourself we should be trying to win news cycles when we can, right? Doesn’t Drum (falsely) accusing Harry Reid of lying undermine that effort?
I’m not going on some deranged ad hominem crusade against Drum. He’s a fine guy for all I know, and I enjoy reading his stuff from time to time. But he’s royally fucking up in this instance.
Rome Again
@Catsy:
“Because stuff!”
I’m sure your high school Critical Thinking Skills (Logic) instructor would be just so pleased with that.
Talk about amateur.
Catsy
@Rome Again: I cordially invite you to point out where Drum’s rationalizations of why he says Reid is probably lying have any basis more substantial than “because stuff”.
Hint: I’m not the one making an argument bereft of logic here. I’m simply mocking the person who is.
Rome Again
@Turgidson:
Drum shows that our side is changing the rules and it’s not an easy thing. We’ve decided to do so because these tactics have worked and our more congenial tactics haven’t. Nice Guys Finish Last. We can’t afford to finish last this time, it’s going to completely topple our entire economy if we do. So, we’re playing hardball, the same way they have. Reid is taking a big risk here, and I hope he knows what he’s doing. He appears to be very confident in his assertions. He’s not backing down.
We’ve prided ourselves on taking the high road (and we have done so many times) but if we keep taking the high road, we’re going to end up in oblivion. The high road is a personal reward of ethical behavior, but it doesn’t win against those who keep using these low blow tactics. They could care less about ethics, they are out to win. We should be too.
Rome Again
@Catsy:
See my reply to Turgidson. You will find your requested info in there, if you look hard enough.
Turgidson
@Rome Again:
Agreed. I think one of the big reasons I’m so angry about these episodes is that there’s all this angst about whether we’re taking the low road, when I really don’t think anything we’ve done so far is even really particularly “low road.” Shadier than we’re used to seeing Democrats campaign? Sure, no doubt. Anywhere near as dirty as the Republicans are on a daily basis? Fuck no.
Drum is entitled to his opinion that Reid’s antics are distasteful. Sure, they are. But not to the point where we need to have a circular firing squad about it. I just feel like it hamstrings our ability to defeat these assholes when our guys get scolded by their own team for throwing a nasty punch once in a while, especially when the scolding itself is wrongheaded (as Drum’s is here).
in any event, I think I’ve hit my rant quota for the moment. I actually feel a little better. Cathartic.
Catsy
@Rome Again: My comment:
The comment of yours you say answers this:
What part of this is relevant to my question? Or for that matter to anyone’s ire at Drum for claiming Reid is lying simply because he doesn’t think his story is plausible?
Rome Again
@Turgidson:
Glad to help. ;)
Just Some Fuckhead
BTW, DougJ, great fucking post!
Rome Again
@Catsy:
Because apparently you don’t know how to read. The entire post I wrote to Turgidson was about “Because Stuff”. I can’t help you if you can’t figure it out.
Get a tutor, maybe that will help.
Thymezone
This is what happens when you build a blog around dog poops and their size and texture. This.
As I said in my first post the to the thread:
1. Kevin Drum knows more about journalistic standards for facts and accuracy than most of the rest of the blogosphere put together.
2. I love what Reid is doing, but he’s taking a huge risk with our money.
3. It’s possible to admire both Reid and Drum at the same time, unless you are just another stupid BJ asshole commenter, in which case, never mind, please don’t read any more of my posts, it makes me sad. And go fuck yourself.
4. DougJ is to Dem punditry what Reince Preibus is to beach volleyball: A spectator.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Thymezone:
How exactly?
Turgidson
@Thymezone:
What’s your beef exactly? It’s not allowed to criticize the sainted Kevin Drum? Whatever his virtues and accomplishments, he’s wrong here. I’m only talking about this episode. Drum is doing us no favors with his scolding that he can’t even back up. Which part of that is so out of bounds that you keep calling me a stupid asshole? I’m asking in all honesty.
Just like it’s possible to admire Drum and Reid at the same time, it’s equally possible to think Drum is fine in general but wrong in this instance. He’s not above reproach.
I’m sick and tired of our team being expected to unilaterally disarm when things get chippy, and seeing Drum stupidly help that case along touched a nerve. If that makes me a stupid asshole, well I’ll take it as a compliment.
NewHavenGuy
(Orig. to Zandar’s)
100% with Zandar here.
I greatly appreciate the efforts of Harry Reid over the last decade as Minority and Majority leader. Particularly in the fields of arm twisting, knife fighting and winning policy fights in that sewer that those Fuckers reduced his beloved Senate to. The guy didn’t grow teeth last month, his demeanor and image are all very quiet storm. A lot of holes in the desert (politically speaking!) occupied by players who wanted to fuck with him over the years.
To his credit also I think Reid just despises Mitt Romney, and I don’t mean that in a partisan sense but a visceral one. Harry’s got nothing to lose- what, run again at 77 to preside over a broken body?- and I think he’s holding some cards. Mittens has ten years worth of cards, but I don’t even need to see them: his Tells are that bad.
Best part is that Reid seems to be absolutely loving it. If this doesn’t somehow backfire ‘tis a fine thing that Harry Reid did for his party and President here. Not to mention his country. I know Kevin Drum thinks different, but he’s profoundly wrong to frame it the way he did.
Caz
Well then you’d be in favor of Obama releasing his college transcripts, right? He has spent millions of dollars to keep this and other stuff out of the public view and officially sealed, so what is he hiding?
Would it be fair for Boehner to speculate that Obama is hiding his college transcripts and records because it shows that he was a foreign exchange student here on a student visa? That’s the same as what Harry Reid is doing.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, right?
So what’s the difference? Both the tax returns and college transcripts are about equal in relevance, so how do you distinguish the two and assert that Romney should produce his while Obama needn’t produce his??
Steve
TZ is often a tool but it is hard to argue with at least one of his points (and maybe more): it is ridiculous to worry about Drum “undermining” Reid’s message because Drum, love him or not, is a nonentity next to Reid.
“Undermining” Reid’s message is like when page A1 says “Reid blasts Romney on taxes” and page A2 says “Liberal blogger blasts Reid for making stuff up.” Or when the lead story at 6pm is like “Harry Reid is still talking about Romney’s tactics, but one blogger thinks he might have gone too far.”
These things never happen. They never will happen. Kevin Drum is a guy with an opinion, an opinion that is not changing the national narrative any more than yours or mine is. So we can all disagree with Drum, just like he can disagree with us, but let’s get over the idea that he’s actually hurting anything.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Caz: Sure, Mitt Romney should hold a press conference and demand President Obama release his school records. That would be the Most Awesome Thing Ever and I’d be forced to make a popcorn run. You rightwingers never get tired of being laughed at, do you?
Thymezone
@Just Some Fuckhead:
You’ll figure it out. I have the greatest confidence in you.
No, really. Even if you are the most aptly named commenter in the blog world.
Heliopause
I see that Harry Reid’s awesome gambit has lefties flinging this sort of thing at one another. Good going, Harry. Your work here is done.
Thymezone
@Steve:
No, you are quite wrong. Drum is a journalist who knows what a verifiable story is and how you get one. And he calculates that Reid is just playing a game of poker here.
Which is fine with me, as I said in my first post, I like Harry for this. But unlike the rabble here, I can like Reid and respect Drum at the same time. They are doing two different but two necessary things. There’s a reason why a politician would make a lousy journalist, and vice versa.
But you see, I have a functioning prefrontal cortex. I’m just that way. JSF also has one but he keeps his better hidden than I do. Well, almost perfectly hidden, but he has let it slip now and then.
Turgidson
@Steve:
I disagree with this. No, he’s not writing at the Times, but he’s not a total non-entity either. The “even the liberal [x] agrees that [Democrat] is out of line here” phenomenon does happen sometimes (Booker, Corey). I’m probably making too big a deal of this particular isolated event in my rants in this thread – I’ll admit that – like I said, this incident, minor though it may be, touched a nerve for me. But I do think these things can matter, and Drum’s not a total nobody. It bugs me that we can’t just beat the pulp out of these assholes without someone getting weak-kneed about it.
Anyway, I’ve said my piece. I’m still not sure why I’m a stupid asshole, but oh well.
Steve
@Thymezone: I don’t know what you’re saying I’m right about. Was it my claim that you were right? I could have been wrong about that.
Turgidson
@Thymezone:
And I’m the stupid asshole….right.
Thymezone
?
eemom
bestest thread EVAH.
Hey TZ. Tell fuckie to stop being mean to me, wouldja?
Thymezone
@Turgidson:
Whatever, dude. Whatever you call somebody who has no fucking idea on on earth what he is talking about, yes, that would be you.
Thymezone
@eemom:
I’m afraid he is beyond redemption. Kind of like a coupon that is past its expiration date. Sad, really. He coulda been a contender.
Thymezone
@Steve:
Right. Wrong.
Just Some Fuckhead
@eemom: I will stop being mean to you. Just don’t act like we’re familiar and call me pet names. That shit wigs me out.
Let’s just start over like this is the first time we’ve noticed each other and see how far we get.
Steve
@Turgidson: I think Cory Booker and Kevin Drum have very little in common. I am not arguing that a Democrat can never, ever step on another Democrat’s narrative; I am saying that Kevin Drum has no chance of weakening Harry Reid’s message in any way that is perceptible outside the liberal blogosphere.
You might see Alex Castellanos on CNN saying “gosh, even liberal Cory Booker thinks Obama has crossed over the line.” You will never see Alex Castellanos on CNN saying “gosh, even liberal Kevin Drum thinks Harry Reid has crossed over the line.” In theory, these two scenarios sound similar, but the second one will never occur in the real world.
By the way, even Cory Booker’s thing was a complete inside-the-Beltway story, interesting only to people who are not part of the target audience for the ads Booker was criticizing. Back home in flyover country, the actual voters who were the actual target audience liked those ads and didn’t care one way or the other what Cory Booker might have said about them. You might have noticed that the news this week is about another ad Obama is running about Bain – exactly the type of ad Booker was criticizing. The criticism amounted to nothing.
Thymezone
@Turgidson:
Genetics?
Just Some Fuckhead
@Thymezone:
I’m drawing a blank here but it doesn’t matter anyway.
No one is going to care what Reid said when the story breaks about Mitt Romney’s first three tax attorneys being missing, dead under mysterious circumstances and in an insane asylum, respectively.
Just Some Fuckhead
@eemom: Hey, haven’t seen you around here before. I used to love Salon and Joe Conason back in the day but I stopped reading Salon when they did hit pieces on all the Democratic candidates except Kerry back in 2004.
Thymezone
Hey guys, what the fuck are you doing the with the shitty mod filter? You know me, I will repost forever until the post works, so …. the sooner you unmoderate me the fewer dupes you will have to deal with.
Thymezone
That is absolutely correct. And of course, it’s not his goal to weaken Re d’s “message.” For one thing Re d’s “message” is a telegraph to Romney: I can keep you talking about your unrel_ased returns as long as you can not rel_ase them and there is nothing you can do about it. As poker, it works perfectly.
Drum’s agenda is simple: It’s useful to remain mindful of what the truth is here, which is simple and clear: Re d has made an unsubstanti@ted claim and has nothing but his word to back it up. Anyone who bets on something like that in politics is a fool even worse than the fools who post here. It’s just bone dumb. So, plan accordingly for … .anything. But meanwhile, the ploy is working fine. So we win.
But, you know, Doug needs his regular dose of LOOK AT ME to keep things hopping here at the Juice. So here we are.
El Cid
@Caz: Did Obama hide all his taxes in his college transcripts?
That would be pretty clever.
Adam Robert Ryan
People who are nothing, people who allow themselves to become nothing, have no place in it.
Thymezone
That is absolutely correct. And of course, it’s not his goal to weaken Re d’s “message.” For one thing Re d’s “message” is a telegraph to Romney: I can keep you talking about your unrel_ased returns as long as you can not rel_ase them and there is nothing you can do about it. As poker, it works perfectly.
Thymezone
That is absolutely correct. And of course, it’s not his goal to weaken Re d’s “message.” For one thing Re d’s “message” is a telegraph to Romney: I can keep you talking about your unrel_ased returns as long as you can not rel_ase them and there is nothing you can do about it. As p0ker, it works perfectly.
Drum’s agenda is simple: It’s useful to remain mindful of what the truth is here, which is simple and clear: Re d has made an unsubstanti@ted claim and has nothing but his word to back it up. Anyone who bets on something like that in politics is a fool even worse than the fools who post here. It’s just bone dumb. So, plan accordingly for … .anything. But meanwhile, the ploy is working fine. So we win.
But, you know, Doug needs his regular dose of LOOK AT ME to keep things hopping here at the Juice. So here we are.
Thymezone
Fascinating. Is your mod filter the same software that ran the original Denver airport baggage system?
Was it written by Demi? Or is that just you, Doug, fucking with my posts? You dog you.
I don’t care. I can repost all night and all day forever. I am more reliable than your crummy mod filter. And also better looking.
Thymezone
This is the ghost that will stalk you to your grave, DougJ.
Thymezone
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Personally, I think that the returns contain some really ugly shit that is way worse than what little tax he paid. McCain’s silence on this? Spooky. I don’t think he will ever release them. In fact I will bet you $3.75 that he won’t. And unless he does, Reid wins the p0ker hand.
And if he does, whatever ugliness is in there works in our favor anyway. So it’s like we can’t lose.
I think Reid is a better p0ker player than Romney is.
Thymezone
OMG, the word p0ker is trapped by the mod filter.
Truly amazing. Who knew that baboons could write software this good?
This must be new, I don’t remember this gaffebug from the old WP.
Maude
@Thymezone:
Kevin Drum writes opinion pieces. He isn’t a reporter.
I read Kevin and have since his Calpundit days.
I don’t agree with him about Reid.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Thymezone: You need to get out more. Come join us in the Dispatches From.. thread. It’s a laff riot.
Triassic Sands
I think that’s true in this case and more generally for tax returns in presidential campaigns. But it would be a bad policy overall, since I still think some people have a right to some privacy, at least some of the time.
(And I’m not very fond of Reid’s anonymous source method of trying to get a response from Romney.)
Thymezone
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Sorry, I can be reached only by money order.
Thomas F
No one called him “Chris” Hitchens dickbag. And he was far and above a more admirable person than the anti-semitic and nasty queen Gore Vidal, who befriended Timothy McVeigh and slut-shamed the rape victim of Roman Polanski. Your shoot from the hip glib bullshit style has a half life of about five minutes.
badbaba13
leave dougj ALOOOOOOOOONE! also,too
NewHavenGuy
@Turgidson: Fuckin A. Well put.
NewHavenGuy
@Turgidson: Fuckin A. Well put.