The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel has good local coverage of yesterday’s shooting at a Sikh temple by a man described as a white Army vet in his 40s. This documentary about the post-9/11 treatment of the Sikh community in New York City is probably relevant.
Reader Interactions
241Comments
Comments are closed.
mai naem
I saw some of the Wisc. coverage yesterday. I realize they’re upset and I understand they think they are being attacked because people think they’re muslim( very true) but saying stuff like “People get us confused with Islam, we are peaceful” is not the way to express it esp. when the Muslim community is one of the first ones out of the gate sending condolences, expressing support etc.
LosGatosCA
I’m sure the Sikh’s musta done sumthin to deserve this fate. In a good whites-only marrying Southern Christian church that has take your gun to church day this would have never happened. In the Southern Christian church the crazy guy would have died in a hale of bullets.
Patricia Kayden
So are dumb people mixing up Sikhs with Muslims because they’re brown and Sikh men wear turbans?
Of course, Muslims shouldn’t be targeted for violence in the first place.
My condolences to those who lost family members/friends in this incident.
Nancy Cadet
Good series of discussions on Amy Goodman’s show ” Democracy Now” today, re. Sikhs in Wisconsin, Sikhs as targets of bias crimes, gun control. If you want to listen or view, Its syndicated on radio, TV and available as a podcast.I’m lucky enough to turn on my local community supported radio station to listen at 8 AM.
Elizabelle
@mai naem:
Good point. Too much demonizing of Muslims, even casually.
From the Journal Sentinel article on the Sikh victims:
Good prayer.
Note that Christian prayers often distinguish between “men of good will” and others who don’t deserve God’s grace.
The Sikh prayer is universal.
General Stuck
I just can’t process any more of this heinous shit right now. So RIP to the victims of political violence, condolences to the families, and a great big fuck you to the racist and violent tinged rhetoric that has been coming out of the GOP and its supporters for some time now.
beltane
The type of ignorant scum who would target Muslims cannot really be expected to have the knowledge of the world necessary to distinguish between Sikhs and Muslims. It really doesn’t matter anyway: the overriding message of RW media, and even much of mainstream media, is that all brown, non-“Judeao-Christian” people are enemies of America who must be destroyed.
waynski
Sikhs cab drivers in NYC get so much shit it’s unbelievable. Even when you try to explain to someone that they’re not Muslim, people don’t believe you. And as was pointed out earlier in the thread, that shouldn’t fucking matter anyway. I think it’s the turban, the beard, the so easily identifiable otherness. Ugh. What a waste.
ppcli
@mai naem:
Saying stuff like that is indeed wrong-headed. Especially because the situations are parallel: it was militant Sikhs who killed Indira Gandhi, militant Sikhs who bombed Air India flight 182, ….
Virtually every religion has had some fanatics that kill in the name of that religion (Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus against Muslims in India, Catholics in Northern Ireland and Croatia, Protestants in Northern Ireland, Orthodox Christians against Muslims and Catholics in Serbia and Bosnia, Buddhists in Myanmar, Shinto terrorists in Japan in the 1930s, extremists in the settlers movement in Israel, …. ) and of course there is no shortage of terrorists who either have no obvious religious faith or who kill for reasons unconnected to that faith.
The point is for those people who love peace to find common ground against those who destroy it, irrespective of religion.
Schlemizel
I’m wondering if anyone will bother to suggest that recent hate speech by Batshit Bachmann and Gomert might have fueled this sort of result.
Of course they will be shouted down for trying to exploit the event. Heaven forefend these demagogs be called into account
Punchy
Clearly this is a clarion call to arm all Middle Eastern-looking peeps with handguns. I fully expect the wingtards and the NRA to demand this, wont they?
Litlebritdifrnt
@Schlemizel:
Sikhs were specifically mentioned in page two of Bachmann’s letter.
Mattminus
@General Stuck:
Also, too, a great big fuck you top the pricks that can’t look at anything outside the lens of Team Red vs Team Blue.
Mighty Breitbart of you.
beltane
@Schlemizel: Michele Bachmann was the first person I thought of when I heard of the shooting. We really need to come to terms with the fact that the GOP is nothing more than a white-supremacist Christian identity cult that has been legitimized by the media. When Golden Dawn gets 7% of the vote in Greece everyone clutches their pearls and opines about the rebirth of fascism. When the Republican party is supported by half of all Americans and by a significant majority of white Americans, we are told that the Democrats are too extreme.
amk
@Mattminus: That’s because the red team is one of the causes behind this you moron.
John PM
I am scared that we are going to see more mass shootings before the election.
General Stuck
@Mattminus:
I get it. Both sides do it. That’s what Malkin says, when she puts up a list of militant liberals face pieing Bill Kristol. You really are an idiot, you know that?
JCT
@Litlebritdifrnt: My husband and I were just discussing that fact. Maybe, just fucking maybe the MSM should do their job and point this out? Oh, I forgot, they are too busy jumping up and down and pointing out that Harry Reid is a liar. Nothing like priorities.
RIP to the victims of this senseless act.
quannlace
An army vet. Man, I bet the military was just thrilled to hear that.
me
Shooter, Wade Page, was Army vet, white supremacist
Face
@Punchy: How many more innocents do the cops kill if some of the temple people start shooting at the assailant? 10? 15? Can you imagine cops showing up to the temple, already prejudiced to believe the Brown ones must be the terrorists, seeing them with guns, and the friendly fire that would have erupted?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Mattminus: Oh, no, both sides aren’t doing it. Quick, better make up some fucking shit to change the subject.
Davis X. Machina
@me: Another oppressed majority. America’s full of them….
Cassidy
@Mattminus: Go wank off to an ABL thread. When team Red stops using violent rhetoric and making buying guns easier than buying a blowjob, then you can, maybe, start the both sides do it bullshit.
schrodinger's cat
@mai naem: There is a historical animosity between Sikhs and Muslims. When it was founded the Sikh religion was non-violent, however their growing popularity made the Mughal Emperors at the time jealous. Aurangzeb, the last powerful Moghul arrested Guru Tegh Bahadur on trumped up charges and was beheaded, this radicalized and militarized the Sikhs, who became a tough fighting force under the next Guru, Guru Gobind Singh. The five signs of Sikhism, including the uncut hair, the kada (the bracelet), the kirpan (the small knife), were also adopted around the time of the 10th Guru.
Someguy
@Litlebritdifrnt:
No they weren’t. Liar.
http://bachmann.house.gov/uploadedfiles/ig_letter_dept_of_state.pdf
mechwarrior online
@mai naem:
Don’t make the mistake of thinking that religious bickering is limited to Christians, Jews, and Muslims, it isn’t. Lot’s of other religions have had issues with the big three and often view them negatively. Muslims are viewed extremely negatively in some areas because of the religions past (and in some cases current) history of violence and bigotry towards other religions.
There are lots of cultural and religious groups of brown people that view Islam just as negatively as your most rabid white bible thumper in Iowa.
fuzz
@schrodinger’s cat:
I’ve heard Sikhs are very highly thought of and well represented in the Indian army as well, and the same was true during the days of the British Indian army. They’re certainly an interesting people.
sharl
@Litlebritdifrnt: Which Bachmann letter was that (where Sikhs were specifically mentioned)?
I just scanned through Crazy-Eyed Lady’s 16-page response to Keith Ellison’s request that she provide evidence for “deep penetration” of the U.S. government by radical Muslims, including her attack on Hillary Clinton’s deputy Huma Abedin. The term ‘Sikh’ did not come up a single time in that document.
Since she has been spewing provocative lies and nonsense since, well, forever, I don’t doubt she is fully capable of some anti-Sikh trash talking. It would be useful to know the actual context though, and better yet, have a direct citation for her statement.
Anya
@waynski:
I am so fucking tired of this crap. WTF is that? Does that mean Muslim cabbies should be getting that shit instead? I know you said that shouldn’t matter but this whole “Sikhs are not Muslims,” “Sikhs are peaceful” is driving me nuts.
@Elizabelle: Guess what, Muslim prayer ends with “May the peace, mercy, and blessings of Allah be upon you.”
Culture of Truth
‘If the gunman had arrived an hour later, when the service was to begin, as many as 300 people would have been present…’
mechwarrior online
@schrodinger’s cat:
You missed the memo, only white Christians ever have anything against Muslims… brown people never do.
Chris
@mai naem:
Colin Powell for once got it exactly right when he said “well the answer to that is, he’s not a Muslim, he’s a Christian. But the really right answer is, what if he is?”
GregB
If we outlaw pies, only outlaws will have pies.
Soonergrunt
@quannlace: On behalf of the millions of Army Vets who don’t go on killing sprees, I’m getting pretty tired of it.
Mentioning that he was a Vet, with no context, like the fact that he served during peacetime, how his discharge was characterized, or what his specialty was only feeds the narrative that Vets, particularly in this day and age, are a bunch of rage-fueled nut-cases who are going to pop off at any minute and go on shooting sprees. This makes it more difficult for Vets to find housing and get jobs, among other things.
The correlation between this guy being a racist fuckwit and being a spree killer at a Mosque or Sikh temple is far, far higher than it will ever be for being a Vet and being a spree killer.
The Columbine killers weren’t Vets. Neither was Seung-Hui Cho, of the Virginia Tech massacre. Nor is Jared Laughner or James Eagan Holmes.
What did they all have in common? They attended high schools in the United States.
Chris
@waynski:
It’s also a walking billboard for “why profiling doesn’t work,” even if profiling all Muslims were somehow worthwhile. Write profiling into the TSA’s rules and you’ll have every Sikh, Hindu and Maronite in the airport pulled over for questioning, while any Muslim with somewhat light skin who shaves will be waved through without any trouble.
But somehow, we’re supposed to believe that the people racist enough to want profiling are capable of doing it accurately – yeah. Okay.
schrodinger's cat
@fuzz: Yes they are. Punjab which was divided into 2 after India’s independence, had one of the highest incidence of violence during the partition, a lot of Sikhs were displaced when Pakistan was formed. Sikhs and Punjabis in general (both Hindu and Muslim) are also heavily represented in India’s Hindi film industry, known these days as “Bollywood”.
Culture of Truth
A notice of default on a $165,150 Wells Fargo Bank loan for property owned by Wade Page in Fayetteville, North Carolina, was filed Sept. 23
Cassidy
@Soonergrunt:
They bought/ had access to legally bought guns.
Elizabelle
@quannlace:
A military vet was my first guess on hearing about the Aurora theater shooting.
Someone with PTSD, who finds no place in recession America.
Anya
@mai naem: Strangely, Sikhs were blowing up planes before Muslims. People need to understand that acts of terrorism as political tool did not start with Muslims and it will not end with them.
Bill Murray
there was the killing of Balbir Sodhi Singh right after 9-11. He was shot 5 times by a man who had a criminal record (attempted robbery), who was “going to go out and shoot some towel heads”. He also tried to shoot another person and shot at his old house that had been bought by an Afghan-American family. He did declare he was “a patriot” and stood “for America all the way”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Balbir_Singh_Sodhi
mechwarrior online
@Anya:
Because Muslims have caused a lot of religious and ethnic violence in the same area of the world that many Sikhs come from. Historically Sikhs were victims of Muslim agression and bigotry to the point it forced them to adopt some changes.
You might not like it, but there are tons of cultures that have historical reasons to dislike Islam with a passion. Being mistaken as a member of a religion that causes untold amounts of violence in the region of the world your from and has a nasty history of aggression towards your religion would piss you off as well.
sharl
@Someguy: A little harsh calling someone a “Liar” in this case, isn’t it? Possible carelessness in quoting from somewhere else without checking things out first – that seems more likely… that is, assuming Bachmann didn’t say something about Sikhs – I honestly don’t know, which is why I asked.
Scott S.
@John PM: And most definitely afterwards.
xian
@General Stuck: the leaks about tattoos suggesting hate crimes makes me think this is another act of stochastic terrorism
Mattminus
We’ve got a bunch of good little bizarro-freepers here, but the thing that you morons miss is that it isn’t “both sides do it”, it’s “neither side did it”.
This is likely the work of a deranged white supremacist, not a political party that enjoys the support of roughly half the country.
But keep fucking that chicken, guys, you’re in great company.
Villago Delenda Est
@quannlace:
As another Army vet, it always makes me feel so good. I’m sure Raven, Omnes, Soonergrunt, and John feel pretty much the same.
Damn. Called this yesterday morning. This is all so predictable. Missed the Army vet part, but stuck the wingtard “they’re mooslims!” down solid.
WaterGirl
@me: Southern Poverty Law Center, the group that seems to have provided the information about Page’s leadership and involvement with hate groups, is an organization I have been donating to for decades.
In addition to all their legal and investigative work in this area, they have a program called Teaching Tolerance, working with teachers and others to engender tolerance in kids who are still in schools.
Just in case anyone here is looking for an organization worthy of donations, I highly recommend checking out the Southern Poverty Law Center.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mattminus:
The Rethuglicans have gone around the bend, idiot.
They’re now the party of the CSA. Which was based on…
wait for it…
WHITE SUPREMACY.
xian
@Mattminus:
fixed that for you
JoyfulA
@Soonergrunt: There’s a wonderful side story about a Vietnam vet living near the temple who saved the life of a Sikh who came pounding on the door with a bullet through him. The vet said the congregation were his neighbors.
Dork
So this shooting has become a row via Wade?
amk
@Mattminus: a breitfart linky. yeah, we’re convinced. Idjit.
Cermet
Stop the bullshit and nonsense: a number of people were murdered and we fight about what people are saying HERE?! The issue is these people are dead and we do not know why. Endless arguments about wording is not respectful to these people and the ones who may soon die because they are in critical condition. Get a grip.
Punchy
I see what you did there.
Yes, horrific death by a guy who likely professed to be pro-life.
Mattminus
@amk:
Why am I not surprised that you miss the point?
Soonergrunt
@Elizabelle: This guy in Wisconsin served during peacetime. I suppose he could have had PTSD from a particularly nasty paper cut or maybe he dropped a wrench on his foot.
Of course, he could just have been a racist fuckwit. The guy in Aurora had no connection to the military at all.
Believe it or not, the vast majority of PTSD sufferers, including myself, have no problem integrating with society in our daily lives. That’s not what PTSD is for most of us.
bootsy
In case I ever hear this bullshit again:”No, it’s not the guns that kill people! Look at the motive!”
Whoops, the motive comes from the same people that are pushing the guns. The NRA is a well-armed (occasionally) moderate white supremacist group already. When they talk about how they need assault weapons in case someone ‘breaks in’ to their home, they’re not talking about a white person breaking in. It’s hardly a stretch to go from that to worry about the be-turbaned people who ‘break in’ to ‘their’ country (not that Fox News and Michelle Bachmann et al don’t mind helping that stretch).
General Stuck
@xian:
Yes, and the feds are treating it as an act of domestic terrorism. In cases like these, as lone wolfs (suspected in this case0, there is about always a blending of the personal with a nexus of political belief forming the grievance. I think a better term for what we know so far, is that it appears to be a hate crime, with political motives as well. When using the word ‘terrorism’, is something I look at as either being organized within a group, or devoid of personal angst likely fueling the act of violence.
As far as right wing rhetoric of violent theme, I think that is even more relative to egging on cases like this is looking like, rather than organized for effect – terrorism.
Hoodie
@Mattminus: No one here is saying that the Republican Party wants people to shoot up Sikh temples. What the Republicans and their allies at places like Fox News and rightwing radio have done is legitimize intolerance, encourage militaristic political expression and validate all sorts of paranoia. These actions arguably encourage these kinds of nuts to come out from under their rocks, encourage them into thinking they need to act violently to protect imagined threats from the “other” and have made it more difficult to distinguish these nuts from more harmless nuts that are simply playing dress up.
Villago Delenda Est
@Soonergrunt:
Article on the Milwaukee paper’s website (I assume it’s the same information that was published dead tree) indicates he was in psyops. No further details than that, but yes, Military Intelligence (the most famous of all oxymorons) and high danger for paper cuts, almost as serious as my stint as a general staff officer.
wrb
@LosGatosCA:
They go ’round wearing Muslim gear. That’s just asking for it, innit?
Chris
@Mattminus:
If you can find me many or even one instance of a major national figure in the Democratic camp raising hell about how dangerous moviegoers or superhero fans are (or anything that our base confuses with moviegoers or superhero fans) – in other words, that Democrats somehow incited this to happen – then you’ll have your “both sides do it.”
Meanwhile, on the other side of the aisle are eleven years’ worth of commentary saying “we’re at war with Islam” and more sinister variations about how American Muslims are the real enemy (Michelle Bachmann’s claims about infiltration, calls for more profiling by the police, the digital lynch mob stirred up over their attempt to build a YMCA in Manhattan, the ever-popular “why won’t they condemn 9/11?” mantra). So sure, keep fucking that chicken.
mechwarrior online
@bootsy:
Don’t stir up crap just to stir up crap. Not everybody in the NRA is white, a bigot, a Republican, or wants to shoot people. The NRA makes money and one of the ways is trolling people that “liberals are going to take your guns away”. And that works because any time any crime is committed with a gun we get the usual suspects dancing around in the blood of the victims calling for gun bans and hurling insults at everybody who’s ever owned a gun. Which let’s the wingnuts point and say “see, look they are crazy” and then nothing gets solved.
WaterGirl
In case you didn’t click on the link from poster “me” above, we no longer have to wonder if the shooter was a white supremacist
mechwarrior online
@Chris:
Oh I can, Hillary Clinton and Joe Liberman. Those two chuckle fucks tried to blame Columbine on Doom and John Carmac and used it as a crusade to ban video games.
Dancing in the blood of victims of a tragedy to force some sort of social engineering and pull tools and toys out of peoples hands is not new for the Democratic party. Which is why we can’t have discussions about this stuff ever.
Culture of Truth
Now, now, let’s not tarnish all neo-Nazis just because of a few bad apples
amk
@Mattminus: what point ? you got nothing except some stupid false equivalency.
cathyx
Something I remember being said at the time the Iraq war started was that the army was desperate for soldiers and they recruited people who would have been turned down during peacetime recruitment. But since they needed bodies, they would recruit people with history of being supremacists and racists. Normally those would have been red flags and they would have been turned down.
Perhaps this is this man’s history.
WaterGirl
@Hoodie: Well said.
JPL
@Culture of Truth: Let’s tarnish them cuz they are hate filled punks instead.
gex
Nice to know that people who belong to HATE groups are allowed to stock up on weapons and ammo. Hey, they aren’t criminals who should be kept from guns until AFTER they slaughter a bunch of Sikhs. AMIRITE?
wrb
@Culture of Truth:
Obama’s gonna use this as an excuse to demonize white supremacists everywhere and take their rights.
Culture of Truth
Reportedly he’s been out of the Army since ’98 and was demoted, and had less a than honorable discharge, and which sounds to me like the Army really didn’t want him around.
Soonergrunt
@Villago Delenda Est: So he sat behind a desk most of the time as a PSYOPS guy.
Christ if there was ever an enlisted specialty that for which overblown egos and undeserved smug superiority were the norms, it’s PSYOPS. Most of those idiots couldn’t pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel.
fuzz
@cathyx:
BBC is saying he served from 1992-1998, so that’s not it. He did get reduced in rank though right before he was discharged apparently so there might have been some problems there even back then.
wrb
@mechwarrior online:
Then why don’t I ever get asked to the dance?
gex
@Hoodie: This. This is classic “Second Amendment remedy” work. A big feature of the 2010 Republican platform.
The right only ever pretended to get rid of the Birchers. Instead they have used dogwhistles to get the Birchers to go “lone wolf” and do their dirty work for them. And when you talk about people destroying America, raping kids, and generally making others out to be an existential threat, you WILL get people who want those others dead.
It works every goddamn time. And now we’re at the point where every two years some right-wing style violence comes out of a crazy white man and we all have to pretend the crazy is the only part that matters.
Cassidy
@Mattminus: Because White Supremacists vote Democrat also. God, you’re an idiot.
@mechwarrior online: Oh horseshit. Everytime something like this happens, we get the usual handwringing “Oh, have some respect for the dead” and “Don’t politicize this. Let’s not talk about gun control ebcause it disrespects the dead”. You wanna know what’s disrespectful to the dead? Not talking about gun control and then the next group of people get fuckin’ shot.
Yeah. People are dead. And you know what? If it wasn’t like these fuckwits in the NRA and all the damn handwringers, we might be able to do something about the proliferation of guns in this country.
TS
@Cermet:
Maybe I’m missing something but it seems they are dead cause a white man didn’t like the color of their skin and/or how they dressed.
I’m open to other suggestions.
Mattminus
@gex:
Instead, a government agent should sit in judgment of your totally legal beliefs and decide which of your rights you’re entitled to on that basis. Maybe they could remove the speech rights of wrong-thinkers too!
Anya
@mechwarrior online: Since Muslims are a minority in India, I am assuming that you’re talking about either the 18th century wars when Sikhs spread their Empire, or 1947 partition of India? I would think there was an equal opportunity bloodshed.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@wrb:
Like near kids and their hoodies.
Soonergrunt
@cathyx: Other than the fact that he didn’t serve in wartime, yeah, perhaps the war is part of his history.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mattminus:
Good lord, man, there are entire herds of livestock that will starve because you’re mass producing strawmen.
Think about the cattle, the sheep, the llamas.
Cassidy
@Villago Delenda Est: Something tells me he’s always thiking about the sheep. With his fixation on ABL, I’m guessing the black one.
Face
Gotta link to some data on this? Because this is not my experience in the slightest.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Culture of Truth: Maybe, if the Republicans would start kicking out their undesirables like the Army does, they wouldn’t get associated with people like this guy.
Mattminus
@Villago Delenda Est:
Pro Tip: “Strawman” doesn’t mean “bad thing that I don’t like”.
Soonergrunt
@Culture of Truth: Is there a source for that? Any time I feel like my suspicions are about to be confirmed, I have learned to get a source before I celebrate/count coup/sigh.
gnomedad
@Soonergrunt:
An important point to remember while deploring the undertreatment of PTSD. Thanks.
Culture of Truth
Maybe I should create a living will giving my relatives permission to talk about control if I am ever shot by a crazed gunman.
bemused
@Hoodie:
I’m pretty sure this is lost on minusbrainmatter who can’t admit hearing hate, rage, bigotry promoted daily could possibly have any compounding effect on the already hate, rage, bigot prone.
amk
OT
LA times – Romneys, caught in housing bust, got tax cut in La Jolla.
Cassidy
@Face: I was pointing out the absurdity of the dumbass I replied to.
Jay C
@Soonergrunt:
The correlation there is probably a lot closer than we’d like to think…
@mechwarrior online:
Ummm, do you ever think that maybe part of the “problem” we have with gun violence in this country stems from precisely the sort of stark dichotomous arguments like you have just presented?
Leaving aside the bullshit about “dancing in the blood of the victims”, can you just maybe allow that there might be some sort of spectrum of controls on the sale and possession of deadly weapons between totalitarian blanket “gun bans” and the virtually unregulated and uncontrolled “free market” – based on little more than a specious wishful-thinking interpretation of the Second Amendment?
PeakVT
According to a schedule from NASA, there will be news briefings at 12PM and 7PM EST.
Culture of Truth
@Soonergrunt: Source is ABC News @ http://abcnews.go.com
Donut
@Culture of Truth:
The levity, I thank you for it.
PeakVT
@PeakVT: Sorry, wrong thread, and FYWP won’t let me edit.
Elizabelle
@Villago Delenda Est:
I like that.
Stop with the straw men. You are starving our animals.
Amir Khalid
It’s a distraction from what happened in Oak Creek, I think, to do body count book-keeping in our species’ long and shameful list of various sectarian conflicts. Or to dig up those conflicts and relitigate them. Or worse yet, to play an inflammatory but otherwise pointless round of This Religion Is Better Than That One.
What’s before us is that one man shot up a Sikh temple, and in God’s house he killed six people before the police killed him. The Oak Creek police and the FBI are no doubt searching Wade Page’s home and his life for clues to why and how he did this. This is about him now, what drove him, what enabled him, how to forestall others like him before they crash another gathering of innocent people with hot lead for everyone.
Chris
@Jay C:
Which of course is totally OK when it’s a matter of dancing in the blood of 3,000 New Yorkers and Washingtonians in order to promote a war that killed thousands upon thousands more, and then again to try to prevent the construction of a YMCA in the same area, and then cutting their mikes when they go on The O’Reilly Factor to object. More than OK, in fact it’s patriotic.
Yutsano
@Mattminus: Your concern has been duly noted and a message given to management.
mechwarrior online
@Jay C:
Given the attempts to ban tobacco, video games, comic books, porn, heavy metal, rap music, guns, salt, fat, trans fat, soda, yeah I’m going to come down against bans of anything.
I’m for laws that prevent the selling of guns to felons and the insane, however… I don’t trust that it wills top there, because the people pushing for that don’t want to stop there. Given that, and the nature of the people pushing for gun bans, I’d rather no restrictions than smart restrictions.
When people calling for gun bans are locked in padded rooms, then we can talk about reasonable controls, till then, pass the RPGs.
Villago Delenda Est
@Culture of Truth:
He served his six (which is the term you sign up for, doesn’t necessarily have to be active duty) and was out.
After six years I’d expect an enlisted man to be at the very least an E-4, more likely an E-5. If he didn’t get past E-4, and was demoted, that might explain some things. I can’t imagine in a field as small as PSYOPS that there’d be much promotion room if you’re less than stellar.
Not knowing much more about this than we know now, it’s all speculation at this point, but a gazillion things could cause a reduction in rank at that point, and at a very low level of the military justice system. Possibly might have been administrative in nature.
bootsy
@mechwarrior online: You’ve got to be one of the worst trolls ever. No style or nothing.
I’m pretty sure that when crazy people are allowed to buy assault weapons and keep using them in a huge incident every other week in the US, that me ‘stirring things up’ by pointing out how the NRA is a white supremacist organization is the least of our problems. Some stirring up is obviously needed.
No one can deny that most of the NRA’s advertising is meant to stir up racist emotion. Just look at the fact that Obama’s complete lack of new gun regulation is now advertised as proof of how he wants to ‘take their guns away.’ Obama wasn’t supplying something for them to pin their racist hook on; but no problem, they’ll just invent it.
wrb
@Chris:
Must have been slippery.
Villago Delenda Est
@Amir Khalid:
FSM will get you for that one, buster.
schrodinger's cat
@Amir Khalid: Good point, every religion has its crazies. No one religion has a monopoly on them. What is scary however is when the crazies attain political power and use religion to foment hate.
Older_Wiser
More on the white supremacist, Wade Michael Page, and his connections: http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/shooter-wade-page-was-army-vet-white-supremacist-856cn28-165123946.html
schrodinger's cat
@Villago Delenda Est: No Ceiling Cat will.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@mechwarrior online:
“John Smith was killed yesterday when the cable holding the elevator he was riding in snapped. While it has been determined that lack of maintenance led to this, it is not the time to use this tragedy to force stricter enforcement of inspections or maintenance procedures.”
arguingwithsignposts
@amk:
I cannot even begin to fathom that.
amk
@wrb: Yup slippery enough to reveal a gun nut after all that poutraged posturing.
Yutsano
@arguingwithsignposts: Well why not? They’ve paid all they legally owe and not a dime more. And that’s everything you need to know prole.
Roger Moore
@amk:
Not a big deal. The Romneys asked to have their property taxes lowered because their home lost value. The only thing that makes this in any way noteworthy is that California doesn’t routinely reassess property values, so owners have to ask to have their taxes reduced when property values drop.
wrb
@bootsy:
They do this with everyone who smells liberal. They know it’s what all liberals want to do, they just won’t admit it because so far they are still afraid of the NRA. So send your donations here. Sure if they’ve got a black president, they’ll try to play the black angle to wind up their members but they wouldn’t have tried any less hard to build res resentment of Mass liberal sailboarders if it had been Kerry. They are all in, all the time.
Mattminus
@Older_Wiser:
Must be a page missing from that link or something. There was no mention of his Republican affiliation. From what I’ve been hearing here, I figured he was going to be a convention delegate, if not the veep choice.
amk
@arguingwithsignposts: Once a tax dodger, always a tax dodger. He is a sleazy scum.
CarolDuhart2
@Soonergrunt: Sooner, I remember reading online that during the beginning of the Iraq war, that white supremacist groups were encouraging their members to join the military to get military training. This would have been in preparation for that “race war” they keep hoping for.
It’s easy to see why he bombed out of the military. These days, the military (one thing people don’t really notice) is becoming increasingly brown and black both in lower and upper ranks. He couldn’t get along in the new reality whatsoever, and got booted out.
Needless to say, he became a loser all around. Increasingly being an open white supremacist is toxic both in and out of government, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see that he lost a few jobs along the way because of his attitude.
Cacti
Unfortunately, this incident hits close to home here in AZ.
The week following the 9/11/01 attacks, an enraged local wingnut gunned down a Sikh gas station owner, Balbir Singh Sodi, as he was overseeing some landscaping outside of his store.
Sodi was a bootstrap, all-American success story. Immigrated to the US, worked as a cab driver, and saved up enough money to buy a convenience store.
arguingwithsignposts
@Yutsano: @amk: I was actually speechless about the $12 million cash part.
Real estate valuation always seemed pretty sketchy to me anyway.
Chris
@CarolDuhart2:
I remember reading the same thing about MS-13 when I had to research them for a class in college. Seems to be a general trend in the underworld to beef up by acquiring some military know-how that way.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Soonergrunt:
From the PTSD sufferers I know it would really be weird for one to willing put himself in a situation were he was likely to be shot like this idiot in New York. My impression of PTSD is that patient has had enough of violence and just wants to get away from it.
Older_Wiser
@Mattminus: I did not say “Republican”, I said “white supremacist” but if you want to make that connection, that’s up to you.
Anya
Second Fire In Five Weeks Burns Missouri Mosque
Cacti
@arguingwithsignposts:
Even with the ebbs and flows of the housing market, a beach front house in La Jolla would never be worth less than 7 figures.
Chris
@Older_Wiser:
I LOL’d.
Villago Delenda Est
@CarolDuhart2:
Interestingly enough, as the long Iraqi occupation continued, the Army was again forced to lower standards and let in people with blemishes on their “permanent records”. One of the upshots was that gang members for the LA area enlisted, did their time, and then returned to the hood, bringing their military training with them. They in turned passed on that training to other gang members. Makes perfect sense as gangs are at least initially a defensive reaction to conditions, then as they get more confident, they branch out into other things.
This is not surprising in the least, it’s to be expected, particularly when you’re running a war with an all-volunteer organization, not relying on a draft to provide bodies, which at least has the virtue of being non-self-selected, and therefore a much broader demographic base.
Cassidy
Thisis the dumbest thing I have read today and I have a lot of winger relatives. This includes the high bar set by matt-sheep fucker.
scav
@Roger Moore: Legally probably OK, but does feed heavily into the skinflint, cheese-paring, non-contributor to the community image he’s attracting like lint.
GOP P(R)aTroll are out in force early this a.m. Must not have been watching the skycrane and have something to worry about.
Roger Moore
@schrodinger’s cat:
I think the underlying problem is not so much religious crazies getting power as it is politicization of religion so that it becomes a path to power. That both gives the religious crazies a route to the power they crave and attracts power hungry people to religion, where they tend to bring out the crazy because it suits their search for power.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@mechwarrior online:
Anita Sarkeesian would like to have a chat with you.
shortstop
@Roger Moore: Astute point.
Cassidy
@Villago Delenda Est: They never eased the restrictions for people with gang and supremacist tats. I’m sure some slipped in, but I’m pretty positive it isn’t as much as people think. TBH, and I spent most of my career in Combat Arms, I ran into very few former gang members and those that had been were glad to be out.
shortstop
@Cassidy: So did he get them afterward?
waynski
@Anya:
I have no idea how you can construe what I said to mean Muslim cabbies should be getting shit from people.
Roger Moore
@scav:
I just think it doesn’t belong anywhere near the top of the list of things Mitt has done wrong. As a Californian, I can tell you that if my property’s value had dropped drastically shortly after I bought it- and fortunately for me it doesn’t seem to have- I would have asked asked for a reassessment. I’m pretty sure everyone I know would do the same thing, and enough people did that it’s actually caused local governments a serious problem in loss of tax revenues. It’s nothing that’s going to stir up a lot of resentment among Californians- as if that were necessary given that Romney is likely to lose the state by double digits.
Cassidy
@shortstop: Possible, but bear in mind that the only tat being talked baout in the news is the “9/11” one, so he most definitely got it afterward (discharged in 98). I seem to recall, forgot where I read it and not inclined to look for it, but WS groups target former military when we get out and can’t find a job. It’s easy to insinuate them dark skinned people are taking your rightful employment.
I personally only met one guy who I thought was a white supremacist. I met a bunch of bigots, but that’s par for the course in any job that recruits from the low income South. This kid was young and went through Basic with me.
CarolDuhart2
@Cassidy: Sure, if you wore gang tats and the like, you were not admitted. But not everyone does that, and I wouldn’t be surprised if some were encouraged not to do so in order to fit in.
Not to mention a hanger-on or hanger arounder who might not have reached the point where they earned or got a tattoo. A hanger on would have hung around, bought books, attended meetings-but as long as they weren’t on any formal list, they would not have shown up as such. Not to mention that there are doubtless members who stay away from tatoos for job reasons. A three-piece suit racist, or a racist who worked in a kitchen may not want to call attention to themselves that way.
Mnemosyne
@Mattminus:
Yeah, come on, you guys, who are we to be bashing all of the innocent white supremacists like Mattminus who don’t go around killing people? Won’t anyone think about how hurt their feelings are when we tar them with the same brush as Bobby Frank Cherry, Thomas Blanton, Herman Frank Cash, and Robert Chambliss; or Ken “Death” Mieske, Kyle Brewster, and Steve Strasser; or Buford O. Farrow; or James Wenneker von Brunn?
Cassidy
@CarolDuhart2: I won’t say you’re wrong, but that is not consistent with what I understand about gang life. I’m sure there are some gang member who aren’t tattooed, but I’m willing to bet they’re few and far between. Getting tats is another way of showing gang allegiance and is a requirement in many cases. Same with WS.
raven
@Villago Delenda Est: Yea, if the “standards” hadn’t been so low in 1966 I would have never gotten in and then what would I have done for a dissertation topic?
SatanicPanic
@gex: Waiting until they kill someone is really the only way to be sure that they shouldn’t have guns.
peach flavored shampoo
It is exactly this shit that the middle class is fed up with. I bet this story has legs.
raven
“Page was the leader of a white supremacist band called End Apathy, and gave an interview to a music website declaring that he wanted to “end people’s apathetic ways” and that “I was holding myself back,” according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.
Page said he had been part of the white power movement since 2000.
“The inspiration was based on frustration that we have the potential to accomplish so much more as individuals and a society in whole,” he said in the interview with Label 56.”
scav
@Roger Moore: Not arguing that part at all. (People do the same all the time in Chicago, must be that bad bad Chicago-style deep-dish politics.) Just pointing out how it looks and contributes to a developing character assessment. But, taken in conjunction with other things, it doesn’t lead one to associate the phrase “generous” with the Mittster — a term just as important to a candidate as “smart with his money”.
Villago Delenda Est
@raven:
“Are you breathing? Is your trigger finger functional?”
He’s in.
OTOH, you’ve got guys like Rethug heartthrob Ted Nugent who went to…well, extraordinary efforts to get below a low bar.
Villago Delenda Est
@raven:
Well, that doesn’t seem to be so bad, now does it?
I mean, it’s a fairly idealistic outlook. I mean, we came on the ship they called the Mayflower, the people who sailed the Moon.
The devil of course is always in the details.
amk
josh marshall outrage on romney’s outrage
schrodinger's cat
@Roger Moore: Sounds like you are describing today’s Republican Party.
El Cid
@raven:
You have to believe in yourself — so many times we tell ourselves that we’re just not capable of shooting lots of innocent people in a public space, but it’s really just our own doubts holding us back.
Chicken Soup for the Mass Public Shooter Soul
El Cid
We didn’t really have these [frequent] mass public shootings before Reagan.
Rusty
And for what it’s worth, NRO Online, aka The Corner, cannot be bothered with a story that involves the shooting at a Sikh temple, despite the fact that their hero, Scott Walker, has responded to the crisis.
Anya
@waynski: I am just fed up with the “stupid racists are being racists towards the wrong group,” or even worse “dumb white supremacists didn’t even mass murder the right brown people” thing.
Does it matter if these racist homicidal fuckwits killed the wrong brown people. What matters is the source of the hate.
Anya
@waynski: I am just fed up with the “stupid racists are being racists towards the wrong group,” or even worse “dumb white supremacists didn’t even mass murder the right brown people” thing.
Does it matter if these racist homicidal fuckwits killed the wrong brown people. What matters is the source of the hate.
Villago Delenda Est
@El Cid:
Well, cable news got its start during Reagan’s years in office.
There have been these sort of incidents for many years in the past, but the frequency seems to be part of a feedback loop of which the media is a major component.
If you want to get your face on the evening news, doing something like what happened in Oak Park is the way to accomplish that. The media is more than happy to help you.
Frankensteinbeck
@Soonergrunt:
Honestly, I assumed the reference to him having served was considered relevant as an indication that he would have the skill to handle firearms. I have never encountered a ‘veterans are dangerous’ prejudice, and thought that died after Vietnam. Yet from the way you talk, it seems clear it exists and you’ve battled it personally.
@mechwarrior online:
I’m sorry, those examples are not even remotely equivalent. I detest those calls for censorship, but they are not themselves calls to violence. They portray the entertainment itself as the dangerous, not the watchers. They also haven’t been mainstream for 20 years. Clinton got a big ‘eh’ about it from the country.
This cannot be offered as a counterexample to major Republican figures who regularly represent Republican interests on television warning about an active and successful Islamic plot to take over our government, or describing Islam as a political force dedicated to destroying the West rather than a religion, or raising a national controversy by suggesting mosques are inherently terrorist training facilities.
@Mattminus:
See above. One political party specifically, publicly, and at great length has vilified Muslims as an existential threat that must be destroyed. When you do that, you are taking on some of the guilt of acts of violence against Muslims. Even if you haven’t directly ordered violence – and the revolutionary rhetoric comes close – you have deliberately described a level of threat that can only be dealt with violently.
Chris
@schrodinger’s cat:
Or the way Christianity, originally a universalist religion that spread among the lower classes with a message of nonviolence and love, underwent the “politicization” and “path to power” co-option and became a tool of the elites preaching a message of hatred, violence and exclusion.
It’s an old story, which is the most maddening part of it all.
scav
Houston, The Libor Finger-Pointing has landed. Hold that: Has hit the atmosphere and begun heating up.
Mattminus
@Mnemosyne:
Ye gods, it never ceases to amaze me how illiberal the commissars of liberalism are.
I’m a white supremacist because I don’t think opinions should be illegal.
SMH
Older_Wiser
Army tightens up regs on tattoos, jewelry, makeup, etc.: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/04/army-new-tougher-hair-tattoo-makeup-regulations-among-pending-changes-041412w
CarolDuhart2
@Cassidy: I see your point, but there are a lot of jobs where having an obvious, and obviously offensive tattoo may be a real handicap. I imagine that some allowances are made for things like that if you can prove your solidarity in other ways. Not to mention the “groupies” and “sympathizers” who hang around but never take steps to formally affiliate because of those considerations. Gangs are tighter knit, but supremacism I suspect allows for more flexibility, as being one isn’t automatically against the law or allows for acts against the law.
El Cid
If your reaction to mass public massacres is to worry about the status of your hanging onto your guns, you’re a fucking nut. And not just because of the principle of the matter, but because the chance that there would be any significant “taking away” of guns is far less than duplicating the Mars “Curiosity” rover landing by handing the Tea Party a stack of rubber bands and a Big Wheel.
Second, though it certainly could help to regulate the purchase and possession of various classes of firearms and ammo, this problem goes way beyond that and is the symptom of some things going very, very deeply wrong in our culture, and primarily in the culture of white males.
Yes, it would be better if fewer rounds could be continuously fired such that maybe in the next mass public shooting fewer died, but that’s not why these freakbots are going out there and mowing down dozens of victims in public.
And even though this is categorizeable under white supremist domestic terrorism, I don’t think it’s a typical case of “terrorism” (unless such evidence emerges) as being part of a movement and particularly without some sort of specific or even more vague goals.
The Sikh identity of his victims is most likely explained by his reported white supremacist ideology, but that’s not why he became yet another mass public shooter in the first place.
Something was going off in his head, and perhaps had he not chosen that target, it could have been a mall (‘trigger a race war’) or African American group or neighborhood, what have you.
Older_Wiser
@Mattminus: You’re a white supremacist because you’re a fucking racist.
Villago Delenda Est
@Frankensteinbeck:
The problem is that veterans ARE dangerous, in that they have learned skills that are dangerous. Not that the vast majority of them would use them against people on the street, but they do have skills…that are ingrained. When Soonergrunt reacts to fireworks, that’s a survival skill he learned under the most trying conditions out there. It doesn’t go away. That’s what PTSD is all about. It’s a reflexive reaction that is a disorder because in day to day life, one does not develop those sort of reactions to loud noises.
Recognizing that you’ve got those reactions, and they’re so fundamental to your outlook now that they’ll never go away, because you NEEDED those skills to survive in combat, is the sign that you can control a lot of those impulses. But not all of them, so you avoid situations where they can be triggered.
I can’t fully comprehend this because I’ve never experienced combat, only simulated combat, but sudden noises will startle me, and that’s just from the training for combat. I can only explain it in an intellectual fashion, not an emotional one.
Cassidy
@CarolDuhart2: This is all assumption on my part, so YMMV, but I was under the impression that most gang members are unemployed and make their income through the various criminal activities. I can’t imagine a full time job would be consistent with gang life. Again, assumption on my part.
Now WS, are different and they have been public about getting people in to get training. usually it’s the kids of WS who are sent, but they’re not hard core yet. BUt, another assumption on my oart, I would imagine that the WP culture is a pretty closed loop and these guys employ each other.
LanceThruster
@mai naem:
Yes, truly. An unfortunate misstep in the inclusiveness PR.
Cassidy
@CarolDuhart2: This is all assumption on my part, so YMMV, but I was under the impression that most gang members are unemployed and make their income through the various criminal activities. I can’t imagine a full time job would be consistent with gang life. Again, assumption on my part.
Now WS, are different and they have been public about getting people in to get training. usually it’s the kids of WS who are sent, but they’re not hard core yet. BUt, another assumption on my oart, I would imagine that the WP culture is a pretty closed loop and these guys employ each other.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@Mattminus:
The Fascists started this. Let the Fascists own it.
And yes, IMO we’ve passed the threshold where use of the ‘F word’ is permissible. Racially targeted violence + religious oppression + economic policy tailored to the needs of the 1% is, operationally, big-F Fascism.
Time to use the word openly.
The Moar You Know
Right-wingers can’t help it. They love to fantasize about killing non-whites, and every now and then one of them will stumble across some booze, Malkin’s cheerleading video, or some homecooked meth, get a little worked up, and start killing. It’s as natural for them as eating people is for grizzly bears. You’ll note that we treat grizzlies with the same respect that we show right wingers in this country.
What, we exterminated all the grizzlies a hundred years ago?
Well, shit, maybe you can learn something from the past after all.
Older_Wiser
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God: People like him would fit in just fine with Germany’s Brownshirts.
Chris
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God:
Robert Paxton: “Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by [1]obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by [2]compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which [3]a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, [4]abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.”
1, 2 and 3 have been blindingly obvious for quite a while. Given the endless stream of “lone wolves,” “isolated incidents,” “crazed gunmen,” “just a few bad apples” and other assorted euphemisms that keep streaming in, and the insistence of establishment conservatives on downplaying all of these incidents while still continuing to incite them at the top of their voices, I’m way past giving them a mulligan on 4.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@El Cid:
FTFY.
shortstop
@The Moar You Know: I guess that was a joke, but grizzlies ain’t been exterminated from the U.S., and they very rarely eat people (although admittedly they’ve been doing it more lately).
Cassidy
@shortstop: Maybe the idea is that they don’t shy away from it? I don’t know. I was confused.
Villago Delenda Est
@shortstop:
It’s the HFCS. The grizzlies just love eating meat that’s been fed it.
wrb
@El Cid:
this
Roger Moore
@schrodinger’s cat:
And the Taliban, the BJP in India, the Puritans during the English Civil War, and FSM knows how many other religious/political movements now and throughout history. Politicizing religion poisons both religion and politics.
Villago Delenda Est
@Roger Moore:
Which is what Madison and Jefferson et al were getting at. Madison codified this in the main body of the Constitution, yet we’ve got people in this country who actually believe the Constitution was handed down to them from Mt. Sinai.
The Founders were much closer in time to the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, and to the unspeakable bloodshed that is associated with them. Some have forgotten so much since then.
trollhattan
Imagine the typical RW mouthbreather response to this is “Burgle, burgle, burgle brown people…let gawd sort ’em out.”
The more enlightened response: “I don’t agree with his actions, but I understand the reasons behind his frustration.”
Locally, we’re still looking for the murderer(s) of two Sikh men, shot dead while on a walk, so this incident has extra resonance. The killer(s) is(are) still free, and likely better armed then before.
Roger Moore
@Villago Delenda Est:
I assume that they were mostly thinking specifically about the British experience of religious strife rather than the more Continental variety, but yes, they had seen what wars of religion could bring. I suspect there was also some entirely selfish side to things; they were a religiously diverse group and were more worried about being dominated by somebody else than dominating others. But the Constitution and Bill of Rights definitely reflected the Framers’ knowledge of specific historical lessons.
schrodinger's cat
@Roger Moore: Yes the BJP is vile, more so is the Facist RSS (BJP’s parent organization) complete with their brown shorts and brainwashing. The Republican party has thankfully not descended to those depths yet.
Villago Delenda Est
@Roger Moore:
Yes, the entire Cavalier/Roundhead thing was in their minds (the fallout of Luther and what he started as it was experienced in England), but I’m sure they also recalled what happened when the Puritans were allowed to let their domination tendencies go wild, in Massachusetts. Definitely a religiously diverse group concerned with any one flavor of faith getting dominance. Madison allied himself with Baptists who were rightfully wary of the Anglican dominated Commonwealth of Virginia.
Elie
@Roger Moore:
Amen.. separation of religion from the state is of critical importance for sanity and peace in both…
I don’t see the frightenned white people who use religion and violence to express their preferances as going anywhere soon. The question for those of us who oppose their methods and frames is how do we manage our lives to address this? They are not going to stop anytime soon…
jurassicpork
Turning the page yet again after the latest mass slaughter in Wisconsin.
shortstop
@Villago Delenda Est: Bwa!
Patricia Kayden
@cathyx: You’re right. I remember reading about the military’s desperation for warm bodies in a Vanity Fair article way back in the Bush administration. Unfortunately, if you take anyone into the military and they do something crazy, they tarnish your image.
Chris
@Roger Moore:
This. There was no dominant church, at least not in all or even most areas of the country, so it would’ve been impossible to have a state church.
They could’ve still included language in the Constitution that invoked some generic form of Christianity or Protestantism, though – Jews and Catholics were few and far between at the time, to say nothing of Sikhs and Muslims. The fact that they didn’t indicates to me that yes, they definitely did intend this to be a secular nation.
El Cid
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God: Yes, but despite their real-world dangerousness, given the ridiculous and laughable yet murderous ideologies spouted by Fascists, especially the major Fascist movements of the 20th century, “Fascist” certainly falls under the “nut” category.
All nuts aren’t Fascists, but all Fascists are nuts. Dangerous, clever, maybe brilliant, but none of that means you’re not nuts.
trollhattan
Scott Lemieux reads the Franzia Pundit so we don’t have to.
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2012/08/oh-well-then#comments
You’ll be shocked, shocked at her response to the shootings. I’d be more amused if I didn’t know she’s a public employee (mis)leading a new generation of lawyer-types.
Villago Delenda Est
@Chris:
Madison was directly challenged on this point by some Christian minister, who said that the no religious test clause would allow a Muslim to be an official of the US Government. Madison told him that he was correct, and that was the idea.
Roger Moore
@Villago Delenda Est:
One of the things that I really get from the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights is that the Framers had a specific list of grievances that they wanted rectified. Big chunks of the thing- the rule against religious tests, the very restrictive definition of treason, the Third Amendment, etc.- read like a list of dirty tricks they were creating specific rules to stop.
El Cid
@Roger Moore: It’s almost as if they lived in a real, particular context, with a remembered history of experience in how they had seen governments (British and local) act.
But that can’t be true, because we know that the Founding Fathers were gauzy figures who stepped out of time traveling multidimensional Godships to pose for inspiring paintings and script a Holy Constitution representing God’s choice of the Best Nation Ever.
Roger Moore
@Chris:
There were dominant churches in specific areas. Many of the colonies had established churches, and some of the states continued to have them after independence. The First Amendment only limited what Congress did, not the states, so established religions continued after the Bill of Rights was ratified. Massachusetts didn’t disestablish until 1833.
Mattminus
@Older_Wiser:
Surely, I’ve demonstrated my full commitment to racism by questioning whether this killing was an official plank of the GOP platform!
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@El Cid:
Fair enough, and point taken.
I just hate to slander well-meaning nuts unnecessarily…
Soonergrunt
@Frankensteinbeck: I have battled it personally. I also attend group discussions with other vets and many of them have brought up the same things.
Chris
@Roger Moore:
Yeah, that’s what I meant by “not in all or even most areas of the country” – there were churches that held sway in this or that state or region, but none of them had that kind of pull in the entire nation, or enough of it to force themselves down the rest of the country’s throats.
Raven
Check out the video of this “person of interest” who showed up at the scene after the shooting.
pseudonymous in nc
@Roger Moore:
As El Cid says, they were responding to specific context — and to the English Bill of Rights, which is its structural model. One way to think about them is as defenders of a British political compact, at least philosophically: a take on the 1690s as seen through the corrective lens of the Enlightenment. And they’re mindful that constitutions are scaffolds, not buildings.
gene108
@Villago Delenda Est:
Prior to the 14th amendment states had plenty of leeway in passing religious tests, because the Bill of Rights didn’t apply to the states.
Catholics and Jews were barred from holding office in many of the original 13 states.
Legalize
@Raven:
The shooter’s buddy was making a propaganda video. Where have we seen this before?
Mnemosyne
@Mattminus:
It’s not illegal to be a white supremacist and hold white supremacist beliefs. It is illegal to kill people because of your white supremacist beliefs.
I am not surprised that you’re having a little trouble understanding why it’s wrong to murder innocent people just because you feel you’re superior to them, or why the government would feel it necessary to add extra penalties on for murdering strangers because of their race or religion.
trollhattan
@Legalize:
Creepy. American Taliban(tm) indeed. And how did the shooter differ from a suicide bomber, other than maybe thinking he’d get away?
Raven
@Legalize: Well they’ll get his ass, dudes are stupider than I thought. Course he may not have anything to do with it I spose..
Bruce S
Haven’t read all of the comments but the names Frank Gaffney and Pam Geller need to be part of any discussion of racist hatemongers fueling this.
Bruce S
Also, this – mosque set on fire for the second time in Joplin MO –
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/second_fire_in_five_weeks_burns_missouri_mosque.php?ref=fpb
delphi_ote
@Anya: No! Obviously not! Jesus fucking Christ in a unicorn rodeo!
Telling someone “that’s not a Muslim” is an attempt to educate people so they understand different cultures! Pointing out that “wearing a turban” can mean many different things is educating an obviously ignorant person, not telling them they should throw their hate at someone else. Grow up!
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Legalize: If not for the tattoo, I would have assumed he was simply a local blogger.
Roger Moore
@pseudonymous in nc:
I think they were also looking through a very personal lens of the various repressive techniques that had been used against them in the 1760’s and 1770’s. A number of the things included in the Constitution can be seen as responses to specific complaints enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, and it’s not the little nitpicky stuff, either. It includes a lot of big, fundamental stuff that we barely even think about anymore, like trials taking place in the district where the crime took place, a legislature with regularly scheduled elections that can’t be dissolved or adjourned by the executive, and lifetime tenure for judges.
Mattminus
@Mnemosyne:
You don’t know how to read, do you?
Some illiberal liberal suggested that hate group membership disqualify one from gun ownership. I objected, as I don’t think the government should be in the business of policing belief. You somehow takeaway that I don’t think murder is wrong.
GO TEAM BLUE!
Harry
@Villago Delenda Est:
Don’t think that because you haven’t experienced it directly means you can’t understand it fully.
And plenty who have experienced it directly will never understand it.
Soonergrunt is protesting rather loudly, seems to me. He’s sensitive to the charge because it makes sense.
Legalize
@Raven:
I guess he could have nothing do to with it. Doesn’t stand to reason though. Why was he there with his video camera with a tattoo similar to the shooter? Find that guy, and they’ll crack a criminal enterprise. The “person of interest” release was probably meant to see if they could rattle his cage and get him to make contact with someone else in the enterprise. He’s either leading them to bigger fish right now, or they’re getting their warrants in perfect order.
trollhattan
SEK spells things out for the timid media:
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2012/08/dear-the-media
Mnemosyne
@Mattminus:
I don’t think hate group membership in and of itself should disqualify one from owning a gun. I think belonging to a hate group that specifically preaches violence and murder should, however, disqualify one from owning a gun.
YMMV, of course, but given the history of hate groups in this country, I think it’s difficult to argue that belonging to a group that urges people to murder others because of their skin color or religion is just a harmless belief that doesn’t impact anyone else.
Read again — I said that you don’t think that murdering strangers because of the color of their skin should be punished any differently than any other kind of murder because then we’re punishing someone for their beliefs.
arguingwithsignposts
@Legalize: his behavior was too weird to be a local blogger. He’s holding the smartphone (not a video camera) too low. I would hope a “local blogger” would be a better videographer than to shoot from the waist like that (no pun intended). Maybe a random schmoe, but definitely worth the FBI checking out.
Cassidy
@Harry: Being trained with skills that could be dangerous and being a danger to society are two different things. And let’s be real here, being a vet doesn’t make you dangerous. A sailor is a vet. Do you really think they’re trained for combat? How about a cook? Or 99% of the jobs in the navy and Air Force? Being a vet doesn’t make you dangerous.
Raven
@Cassidy: Dangerous-er.
Cassidy
@Raven: To a certain extent, sure, but a peace time PsyOps Soldier has as much combat training as your average HR Clerk. He went to the range twice a year and to the field about 3-5 times, a couple of those in support of SOF (so he might have gotten to do some cool stuff then). We’re not talking about about an Infantryman or Cav Scout here.
All I’m saying is that being a vet doesn’t mean you’ve accumulated dangerous skills. You’re a vet going on convoys in the jungle. I’m a vet going on patrol in Baghdad. A light wheel mechanic is a vet and may have never left the FOB/ base/ CONUS.
Raven
@Cassidy: I don’t think it really matters. Any jackass can learn to fire a 9 at a bunch of helpless people. I know what you are sayin.
Cassidy
@Raven: Exactly. Just defending Sooner’s position is all. A lot is assumed when people say Army vet (or any service) and the first thing that pops into mind is Rambo. They forget that John Rambo is 1) a fictional character and 2) one of the cool kids that 99.9% of us are not.
Now that surgeon in NY who killed his girlfriend and disappeared and later they find out he’s prior SF, that’s a whole ‘nother ballgame.
Raven
@Cassidy: There’s a Arthur John Rambo on the Wall, 11th ACR, Cole’s outfit it memory serves.
Cassidy
@Raven: Heh…did’nt know that. Makes me wonder if that’s where he got the name?
Raven
@Cassidy: Nah, coincidink.
shortstop
@Someguy:
First paragraph of page 2, asswipe. Now apologize to litlebrit.
El Cid
@Mattminus: I looked back several times at that original comment. It’s possible that the commenter might have implied all the sorts of things you responded to; but in a blog like this, I’d probably give more of a shit about finding out what some brief sarcastic comment meant before treating it like a proposed bill before the legislature.
gwangung
@Mattminus: Nah, you write sloppily; you’re so sloppy that it gives the impression that you hold racist and ethnocentric ideas and aren’t particularly compassionate towards those like yourself.
I’d work on that if I were you.
Elizabelle
@trollhattan:
Dear The Media.
Just wow.
sharl
@shortstop: Beyond someguy’s jerkish behavior, it is interesting to compare the letters linked by him vs. the one linked by Litlebrit (via you). They were released the same day (13JUN) from Crazy Eyes’ office, both 4-pages long, but one sent to DoJ, the other to DoS. The wording differs slightly, including ‘Sikh’ being mentioned in only the one sent to DoJ.
I have no specific point to make here, but I do find that curious. Did someone of sound mind do some editing between the release of the two letters? She would probably use a dodge based on such an argument, true or not, to wiggle out of this, should anyone call her on it.
CarolDuhart2
@Cassidy: No, being a vet doesn’t make you dangerous. But I assume that every vet has basic training, which is enough for a crowd of scared, surprised civilians with no training, like children and the elderly.
Every army recruits inadvertently it’s share of misfits and the deluded by the sheer law of averages. Yes, you can weed out the obvious ones beforehand, but some folks don’t show signs until they are in. They can be hard to remove unless they do something that demands it. Opinion isn’t enough.
The big issue is what to do about those vets who fall between the cracks with stuff like this. Shouldn’t there be some warnings that manipulative groups often target unhappy veterans with a promise of some support in exchange for joining a toxic group?
Ajay
I just want to point out that Temple is not what Sikhs go to for praying. Its called a Gurdwara:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurdwara
I am not a Sikh but I have been to many Gurdwara’s with my mother(who is also not a Sikh) in India and few in US.
trollhattan
FWIW our gunman was dishonorably discharged in 1998. It would seem the Army knew he had issues back then.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/06/13141505-alleged-gunman-in-wisconsin-sikh-temple-attack-idd-as-army-veteran-fbi-explores-links-to-white-supremacist-groups?lite
schrodinger's cat
@Ajay: Gurudwara is a Sikh temple, as in place of worship. The foremost Gurudwara, in Amritsar, kinda like the St Paul’s in the Vatican for the Catholics, is known as Golden Temple. So the use of temple to describe a Gurudwara is not wrong in my opinion.
Ajay
@schrodinger’s cat:
There is nothing wrong in using Temple here and I am not offended or picky or concerned. However its still incorrect. Golden Temple is a Gurdwara as well; “Golden Temple” is a noun representing a Gurdwara. “Sikh Temple” is same as saying “Christian Temple” unless you call a specific church as “Temple of Christ” etc.
There are many Gurdwaras in US which hold Sunday meetings and so do Temples (which is mostly for Hindus). This not a big deal. I just thought I might enlighten someone :-)
Cain
@Roger Moore:
The BJP isn’t as bas as Congress I. Those fuckers are the most corrupt assholes in the whole world. The BJP pales in comparison to them.
schrodinger's cat
@Cain: They are both bad but in
different ways. Congress under Indira Gandhi and later was nest of nepotistic, corrupt politicians. While BJP and their Hindutva brigade foment religious intolerance against Muslims and other minorities.
Cain
@schrodinger’s cat:
The congress I party has been siphoning India’s wealth to private bank accounts for 40 years. They are assholes of the highest order.
The BJP you are correct do in fact forment religious intolerence, but I am not aware of it be translating into official policy or laws. SO in that way they are big talkers but they’ve done fairly decently. That said I am not a fan of any indian political party as all of them are steeply marinating in corruption.
schrodinger's cat
@Cain: Corruption is bad, but BJP has incited riots, in 1990s over the Ranjanmabhoomi-Babri Masjid issue and more recently in Gujarat. The butcher of Gujarat is one of BJP’s most promising rising national leaders. India is tinder box that can explode if flames of sectarian strife are fanned.
In my opinion money grubbing is less of a sin than fomenting religious strife and yes I know that Congress I was responsible for anti-Sikh riots after Indira Gandhi’s assassination but at least in this respect it is the lesser of the two evils.