They’ve Got Harry Under Their Skin

I can’t really improve on TBogg’s analysis of the Harry Reid shitstorm, specifically, this:

Harry Reid is the honey badger; he doesn’t give a shit. He has the advantages of being the Senate Majority Leader which comes with a bully pulpit that can’t be ignored, he’s not some bomb-throwing back bencher, and he is a fellow Mormon who, like Jon Huntsman, seems to harbor a white-hot hatred of all things Mitt. Reid is most likely serving his last term in the senate and he’s is plainly tired of fucking around with Republicans and fully intends to bury their standard bearer which can have down ticket implications if depressed Republicans decide to stay home on election day because their top of the ticket prospects look like they are deader than Bob Dole’s dick.

The dumbshit wingnuts in my neck of the woods are pushing a new meme: Google Harry Reid is a Pederast. In other words, the accusations Reid made about Mitt’s taxes, which Romney could easily debunk by releasing them (and making Reid look like an ass in the process), aren’t equivalent to some embarrassing accusation about Reid (e.g., “Harry Reid wears a g-string under his suit.”). Instead, they’re equivalent to one of the most disgusting felonies imaginable. Mitt really must have done something bad to spur that kind of reaction, don’t you think?






176 replies
  1. 1
    dmsilev says:

    A work of genius, that.

    Courtesy of the folks at Lawyers, Guns, and Money, today’s bit of unintentional hilarity: Conservapedia’s coverage of the 2012 Olympics. Asking the important questions, like “will atheist nations underperform in team sports” and “will the liberal media overpromote homosexual athletes, far beyond their achievements?”.

    Edit: Also, too, the talk page for that Wiki is great. I like this exchange:

    Maybe baseball (and softball) have been removed because they are not included in the 2012 Olympics.
    __
    Baseball was dropped from the 2012 Olympics??? That’s a disappointment! Is the sport considered too conservative?–Andy Schlafly 15:43, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
    __
    If it is, why did Cuba win most of the gold medals? (And the most medals overall?) JeffreyB 15:47, 2 July 2012 (EDT)

  2. 2
    MikeJ says:

    Wambach!

  3. 3
    HRA says:

    Yes, I do think.

    I now take back dissing Harry forever. IOW I should have paid attention when G said “don’t underestimate him, he’s a fighter”.

  4. 4
    dr. bloor says:

    I’d love to see Harry drop trou on the Senate floor to show everyone a G string, and then challenge Mitt to do the same with his tax returns.

    Well, OK, I wouldn’t actually love to see it, but I’d love hearing about it.

  5. 5
    maya says:

    You mean they haven’t compared Reid with the Holocaust yet? They’re really off their game.

  6. 6
    JPL says:

    Mitt is not releasing his returns. They have to be toxic.

  7. 7
    MikeJ says:

    On topic, one of those wingnut nimrods showed up here yesterday and I was impressed with how well everybody ignored the troll. At least until he got a front page post.

  8. 8
    JoyouMN says:

    I am so loving this. Harry Reid has frustrated us so many times because he’s bent over backwards to be fair… I think this is his announcement that that policy is officially dead.

    Give em hell, Harry.

  9. 9
    JR in WV says:

    I saw a “news report” where Mitt or a surrogate told Harry to “put up or shut up”, but everyone knows they are in the position of putting up or shutting up – Mittster has the tax returns that would prove what Harry Reid said was wrong, but he can’t release them because, well it would just be wrong to release his secret tax returns!

    Holy secret tax returns, Willard, what’s so bad in them that it’s worse than being hit about the ears for the rest of the campaign with “didn’t pay any taxes, but still wants a tax cut!” ?

    That’s a very good question, I hope it gets asked in a headline or lead story every day the rest of the election cycle.

  10. 10
    DFS says:

    My guess at the dark, dirty secret: Mitt didn’t kick back his full 10 percent to Kolob.

  11. 11
    Dennis SGMM says:

    @maya:
    After characterizing aspects of the ACA as a combination of The Worst Things That Evar Happened they may be out of disasters. They should have paced themselves.

  12. 12
    dmsilev says:

    @JR in WV: Harry Reid jammed that one back down Romney’s throat by issuing a statement that said more or less what you did, that all Romney has to do is release his tax returns to prove Reid wrong…

  13. 13
    ding dong says:

    These fools do know Reid stood up to the real Mafia in Vegas right? Mitt would have joined the Mafia to rip off people.

  14. 14
    General Stuck says:

    Man, that is a planetary size shark the wingnuts are jumping to smear Harry Reid. Jeebus.

  15. 15
    shortstop says:

    @DFS: Everyone time someone mentions this, I cringe, because Kolob Canyons is one of my favorite parts of Zion National Park and I don’t want to ruin that with creepy mental associations. However, I realize this is no one else’s problem.

  16. 16
    MattF says:

    @JR in WV: That ‘put up or shut up’ response caught my eye. What’s the one thing the Romney campaign can say in order to remind people that Mitt isn’t releasing his tax returns? Yes, they really are incompetent.

  17. 17
    WaterGirl says:

    @MikeJ: I wasn’t around much yesterday. I’m not sure what you meant by:

    “At least until he got a front page post.”

  18. 18
    geg6 says:

    And this is why I love Tbogg. Won’t touch the rest of that site, but Tbogg is fucking awesome.

    Harry Reid as the honey badger. Love it.

  19. 19
    Patricia Kayden says:

    I don’t get it. How does claiming that Reid is a pederast matter? Reid is not running for the highest job in the land.

    This is not going to work. Try something else, Wingnuts. Like convincing The Bot to release more tax returns.

  20. 20
    BGinCHI says:

    I Googled Reid, but I don’t see any indication that he coached at Penn State.

  21. 21
    Mark S. says:

    RIP John Keegan

    A History of Warfare is one of my favorite books of all time.

  22. 22
    redshirt says:

    Harry Reid is worse than 9/11 and Pearl Harbor combined, times 4!

  23. 23
    the Conster says:

    Reid knows what’s in those returns, I have zero doubt. I hope Mitt doesn’t release them, because that proves Reid’s right. Even nutjob fucktards can understand that. Campaigning on lowering taxes for rich fucks who don’t pay any – well, if it were possible for anyone to do that, it sure ain’t Mitt. Mitt’s fucked and he knows it.

  24. 24
    Roger Moore says:

    @shortstop:

    However, I realize this is no one else’s problem.

    Not quite no one. Every time I hear of these places in Mormonism, I can’t help but think of the beautiful places in Utah with the same name.

  25. 25
    MattF says:

    …and if you’re looking for a reason why Reid ls slipping a knife into Mitt’s vital organs, there’s this:

    http://www.salon.com/2010/06/0.....ron_angle/

  26. 26
    Valdivia says:

    Can someone explain to me why so many dems are saying Reid is doing harm? I just don’t get it.

  27. 27
    YellowDog says:

    Call it Santorum’s revenge. But I doubt their intended audience even knows what a pederast is. Of course, that accusation of thespianism worked for Nixon (accompanied by a reference to undergarments).

  28. 28
    wrb says:

    his is too cool.

    But c’mon, Harry raise your game.

    What about the accountant who worked for the McCain campaing who told you that he thought Mitt had committed multiple felonies, the way he’d hidden huge sums of money in secret offshore accounts.

  29. 29
    geg6 says:

    @Valdivia:

    Because they are still living with that bad case of Stockholm syndrome that they caught during the Reagan/Bush years.

    Dems and liberals who are, quite literally, afraid to fight and fight hard for what they believe. Being polite is more important to them than the whole country turning into Somalia.

  30. 30
    Roger Moore says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    I don’t get it. How does claiming that Reid is a pederast matter?

    Given Republican levels of projection, it probably means that Romney has been deducting charitable contributions to NAMBLA.

  31. 31
    Culture of Truth says:

    Mitt really must have done something bad to spur that kind of reaction, don’t you think?

    No, he just has among his supporters some very bad people. They don’t know or care what’s in Mitt’s returns. This is sadly not terribly surprising.

  32. 32
    redshirt says:

    @Valdivia: Because there is still a sizeable number of Democrats who have no spine and would gladly roll over and crawl in a corner in the face of Republican bullies rather then stand up and fight back.

    Thankfully, they seem to be diminishing as a species as we all get more radicalized.

  33. 33
    shortstop says:

    @Roger Moore: When we were at Bryce and Zion (both stunning) last year, the third baseman had left his ball cap at home and needed something to keep the sun off his face on the trails. He bought a Polygamy Porter cap featuring two great taglines: “Why have just one?” and “Take some home to the wives!”

    Because we are both 12 years old, we found this hilarious. The Mormon who sold it to us was less amused. I think I’ve graciously listened to enough dumb Al Capone jokes that I get a freebie on this one, though.

  34. 34
    Valdivia says:

    @geg6:
    @redshirt:

    that makes sense. I was just taken aback by how many of the smart pundits (Benen for example) were deploring it.

  35. 35
    raven says:

    A second source, said to be “close to Senator [Harry] Reid,” has told CNN’s Dana Bash that Reid’s original source for the claim that Mitt Romney “didn’t pay any taxes for 10 years” exists, is a “Bain investor” and a “credible person.” Dana Bash reported on this source, and the person’s willingness to corroborate the allegation to which the Senate majority leader repeated on Thursday’s airing of CNN’s AC360.

  36. 36
    General Stuck says:

    @Valdivia:

    I think it is because Harry included using Mitt’s father to go after Mitt. Dems aren’t used to that kind of viciousness, and it is a little vicious to play that card.

    I think Harry Reid is in the middle of a cold civil war going on, mostly within the senate chamber, being played out to where the republicans are straddling the line of nihilistic behavior. If George Romney hadn’t been a public figure politician, I might agree this was over the line. But he is a public figure, and in a war of whatever sort, all is fair, and the consideration is whether you shoot your self in the foot with voters, or not. Too damn much at stake, for any more comity.

  37. 37
    Culture of Truth says:

    Mitt Romney says it’s time for Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to “put up or shut up” on allegations that the Republican presidential candidate hasn’t paid taxes.

    “Harry’s gonna have to describe who it is he spoke with because, of course, that’s totally and completely wrong,” Romney said. “It’s untrue, dishonest and inaccurate…”

  38. 38
    jwb says:

    @Valdivia: I see at least two possibilities here: (1) This is very damaging, with the potential to obliterate the Mittwit, and the media can’t have that, so they need to find a way to neutralize the comments to some extent. (2) It’s a clever way of keeping the meme going and allowing it to reach ears it would not otherwise reach; it’s media catnip that they can’t resist showing and every time one of these Dems says that Reid really shouldn’t be spreading rumors about the Mittwit not paying any taxes those Dems continue to spread the rumor that Mittwit is not paying any taxes. If you go for #2, the big question, I guess, is whether those Dems are in on the game or the Dem braintrust calculated a high probability that the media would go with (1) and produce (2) all by themselves.

  39. 39
    redshirt says:

    @General Stuck: The future of our world is at stake, and the well being of our children and their children, all because of a statistically small population of nutjobs who’ve nonetheless seized control over much of the power in America and thereby influence the entire world.

    They MUST be stopped, and we all need to do whatever it takes to do so.

  40. 40
    EconWatcher says:

    @wrb:

    The Dems need to find new angles on this story to keep it alive. And it looks like they’re doing just that.

    TPM reports that they’re now asking how he could have so much in his IRA. So we can talk about that for a while. Next up will be a more detailed discussion of what the Swiss accounts might have been used for. Etc.

  41. 41
    General Stuck says:

    @redshirt:

    I completely agree

  42. 42
    raven says:

    @General Stuck: A “little” viscous. You sound like Rove on Hannity yesterday. De-jewel this fucking gutter rat.

  43. 43
    Valdivia says:

    @General Stuck:

    I thought that was particularly sharp, including that, since it’s true.

    @jwb:
    I am hoping that too.

  44. 44
    waynski says:

    @MattF: Actually, I believe Mitt said it himself on Sean Hannity’s radio show. Pretty heard a replay on O’Donnell last night.

  45. 45
    shortstop says:

    @EconWatcher: Exactly. There’s enough fodder there to keep us going through January. I especially look forward to the general public becoming educated about the 2009 Swiss bank account amnesty caper.

  46. 46
    magurakurin says:

    @General Stuck: I do as well. The world outside is watching and waiting. I feel fortunate that as an ex-pat I at least get to mail in a vote. Others can only wait in Casablanca..and wait…and wait…and wait.

  47. 47
    EconWatcher says:

    @shortstop:

    I actually think reporters won’t protect the Mittster on this, or at least not nearly enough. You can’t overemphasize the importance of the personal relationships W and McCain cultivated with the press. Mittster doesn’t have that; in fact, he has the opposite. And he will pay for it.

  48. 48
    maya says:

    @Culture of Truth:

    “Harry’s gonna have to describe who it is he spoke with because”,

    It was in a darkened garage. He wore a hat and his voice was muffled by a handkerchief, but I’d say he was about average for a person of his size. There were a lot of cigarette butts crushed all over the floor near the driver’s side of the BMW he arrived in. He had waited for me for a long time to tell me his tale. He would only use his code name: Peasant.

  49. 49
    shortstop says:

    @EconWatcher: Agreed. His arrogance is going to cost him in that arena. Not only totally restricting access but also openly trashing the press? Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

  50. 50
    shortstop says:

    @maya: Hilarious.

  51. 51
    Mark S. says:

    @raven:

    The plot thickens . . .

    I’ve always thought there was a lot more going on than maybe one year Mitt didn’t pay any taxes. That might have been mildly embarrassing, but everyone would’ve forgotten that after a day.

    @General Stuck:

    I think saying George Romney would be ashamed of his son was sleazy, but everything else Reid did was brilliant. I don’t doubt some Bain investor told Reid that; I bet Mitt used to brag about it.

  52. 52
    NotMax says:

    While Reid should be too canny not to have more he’s holding back in a drip-drip-drip strategy, there’s too much wiggle room in a vast gray area, which is why we need to see the returns in full.

    Understand, please, that am not defending nor absolving Mitt in any way, but…

    Like most any business owner or high earner, Mitt pays quarterly estimated income taxes. So it is not implausible (though it is dicey) for him to insist he paid taxes, even if:

    1) the actual final return filed shows a zero amount due after payment of the estimated taxes, or

    2) he received a refund on the actual final return

    If Reid’s further evidence forces the release of the returns, what is in those pages regarding where the money was and how the income was manipulated is the red meat.

  53. 53
    wrb says:

    @EconWatcher:

    Yes and there is the question of whether he took advantage of that amnesty offered to people who had not paid taxes on money hidden overseas.

    If he did, it is an admission of a prior crime.

    If he didn’t… well why did he put that money overseas anyway?…
    Why wouldn’t he admit that it is to avoid paying US takes?
    Or is he up to something else?
    Is he so arrogant that thinks he doesn’t need the amnesty, that people like him are untouchable?

  54. 54
    General Stuck says:

    @raven:

    You watch Hannity? Man, that shit will make you crazy in the head.

  55. 55
    Culture of Truth says:

    How can his supporters go on this? If they knew what was in the returns, they would gladly spin/make stuff up/lie for him, but they don’t.

    It would be as if Obama refused to release the jobs numbers. You gotta give supporters Fox News something to work with!

  56. 56
    ericblair says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    I don’t get it. How does claiming that Reid is a pederast matter?

    Guess they’re just saying that “see, we can make up all sorts of untrue nasty shit about you and smear in all over the media too, so watch out!” Kinda loses its punch when, about ten milliseconds later, you realize that the goopers have been making up untrue nasty shit about every major Dem and smearing them all over the media anyways for decades. So, uh, they’re threatening to keep doing what they’ve been doing for years anyways.

  57. 57
    Culture of Truth says:

    OMG what if Reid’s source is… Rafalca?! It all makes sense now!!

  58. 58
    wrb says:

    @Mark S.:

    I think saying George Romney would be ashamed of his son was sleazy,

    Fucking why.

    Mitt is not meeting the standard set by his father.

    Pointing out this glaring failure of character in a presidential candidate is somehow sleazy?

    It gives Mitt a chance to explain why his father would not, in fact, be disappointed in him.

    Which should be entertaining.

  59. 59
    Roger Moore says:

    @Mark S.:

    I think saying George Romney would be ashamed of his son was sleazy, but everything else Reid did was brilliant.

    I don’t think it was sleazy. George Romney was the one who started releasing tax returns; I think he genuinely would be ashamed of his son for refusing to live up to his example. And I think it’s a brilliant way of highlighting what Mitt is doing, especially because it’s well calculated to drive Mitt around the bend with his daddy issues.

  60. 60
    geg6 says:

    @General Stuck:

    Oh, Stuck. The reason he brought up Mitten’s father is because George Romney himself made such a big deal when he released the 12 or so years of his tax returns during his run for president. It’s completely above board to hold W. Mittens to the same standard as his father and find him lacking. I don’t find it vicious at all, unless you think George Romney would be proud of Willard’s secrecy toward his tax returns. Personally, I think Harry is right. George Romney would be ashamed of that, in addition to all the race-baiting Willard has been happy to wallow in. You’re talking about a guy who walked out of a GOP convention due to the racism he found there, in addition to his transparency on his finances.

  61. 61
    Culture of Truth says:

    It was the middle of the night, by some garage and a barn. I couldn’t see his face, but he was about 7 feet tall, weighed about, I guess, 1,000 lbs. Seemed nervous. Chewed oats a lot. Held a grudge. Knew all about Mitt’s taxes. I didn’t catch his name. That was enough for me.

  62. 62
    maya says:

    I believe this tax return suspense needs a proper title from here on in:

    Mittergate.

  63. 63
    raven says:

    @General Stuck: Nah, it was on the radio while I was driving home. I have to avoid sports radio cuz of the Olympics.

  64. 64
    redshirt says:

    @geg6: And a man who built things in America and helped American workers and happened to get rich doing so, compared to his son, who has done all the opposite. Except the getting even richer part.

    An apt illustration of the changes in America and the Republican party over the last 40 years.

  65. 65
    Punchy says:

    I love this needling by Reid. He likely knows it’s accurate, but will wait until Romney denies it at least 1,593 times before revealing his source of the truth. That way, when Romney claims his denials were taken out of context 1584 times, there’s at least 9 examples of him clearly lying.

  66. 66
    Legalize says:

    @shortstop:
    That’s a good one. And bring on the Stericycle discussion – probably right around the time of the Teabilly convention. Although I bet an outside group will have to bring that gem.

  67. 67
    EconWatcher says:

    @Mark S.:

    I think it’s effective to ask, Mitt, why aren’t you following your father’s example? But saying that his deceased father would be ashamed of him was sleazy and, worse, a political mistake. If you provoke sympathy you can blow a winning hand. And I have no doubt Reid has a winning hand here.

    But overall, you gotta give Reid huge credit–he’s scoring some major hits with this. And I don’t think Reid is really taking any risk here, even if his claim of ten years without taxes is bogus.

    The only way Reid could come out looking bad on this is if Romney released the tax returns and they were plain-vanilla boring. And we already know enough to be confident that won’t be the case.

  68. 68
    BruinKid says:

    You should also check out what BooMan had to say about how Mitt would be treated were he a Democrat.

    Mitt Romney isn’t really a Mormon. He’s an atheist who only went along with his father’s faith so he could duck the Vietnam draft. He didn’t actually try to convert anyone when he was in France either. In reality, he spent all his time in Monte Carlo gambling and buying high-end hookers. When his daddy found out what he was doing, he made him come home and marry his high school sweetheart. Actually, he only made him marry her after the second time she got pregnant. The first time, they got an abortion. Then Romney started using some of the mafia connections he had made in Marseilles to import heroin. By the time he became governor, they were flying it straight into a secret airport they set up in the Berkshires. When one of the pilots started to talk, Romney had him killed.
    __
    Now, if we started telling these stories to people, and a substantial percentage of the population started to actually believe these stories, and if congressmen humored and even encouraged the people who believed these stories, and if media figures talked about these stories, and if Congress actually had hearings about some of these stories, then Mitt Romney would know what it’s like to be treated like a Democrat.

  69. 69
    wrb says:

    @redshirt:

    An apt illustration of the changes in America and the Republican party over the last 40 years.

    Exactly

    I find the idea of an ad comparing Twitt to his dad intriguing.

  70. 70
    NotMax says:

    @Patricia Kayden

    don’t get it. How does claiming that Reid is a pederast matter?

    Because that is their nature, to pile on character assassination of the messenger and attempt to deflect attention from the message.

    See:

    Sandra Fluke

    Shirley Sherrod

    Joe Wilson & Valerie Plame

    Joycelyn Elders

    and dozens and dozens more.

    Though one suspects that there will have to be some education as what the definition of pederast is. It’s not a word commonly heard ’round the cracker barrel.

  71. 71
    redshirt says:

    @BruinKid: No doubt. The double standard is so toweringly large it’s amazing, and yet here we are having to toughen up some fellow travelers from this ghastly and “sleazy” attack by Reid.

    Stockholm Syndrome indeed.

  72. 72
    Lex says:

    I liked Jesse Taylor’s tweet last night: “Harry Reid has collected all the fucks in Washington and refuses to give any of them to anyone.”

  73. 73
    ChrisNYC says:

    That Reid statement from last night is so completely hilarious and beautiful. They must be having a really fun time. Doug Matawhatever at OTB put a post saying Reid was “terrible” and “despicable.” Satisfyingly caught hell in the comments for being, just now, so so terribly offended at outrageous claims but treating GOP calumny for the last 4 years as though it’s just silly politics, all good fun, really. I really love when GOPers cry and stamp their tiny feet like this.

  74. 74
    General Stuck says:

    @geg6:

    Oh, Stuck.

    Oh, geg6. Did you read my entire comment? Apparently not. With your usual going off half cocked.

  75. 75
    jwb says:

    @EconWatcher: I think Reid knowingly risked the public sympathy in order (1) to ensure that the media lit on the story and (2) to get inside Romney’s head. On both counts, I would say it worked and was worth the cost of any vague sympathy that accrues to Romney.

  76. 76
    NCSteve says:

    Yeah, Harry did do something bad. He established a measurable baseline for how politically toxic whatever Millard is hiding has to be.

    Thanks to Harry, we now know for certain that, at a minimum, whatever W. Millard Ronmore is hiding, it is at least as politically toxic as his having had years when his effective tax rate was at or near zero.

  77. 77
    geg6 says:

    @redshirt:

    Exactly. Well said.

  78. 78
    the Conster says:

    Go Harry. This is how you play this game – to win. People like winners – just win baby. Fuck yeah!

  79. 79
    geg6 says:

    @General Stuck:

    Actually, I did read your whole comment. Nowhere did I see you saying that George Romney set a completely different standard than his own son is setting for himself. Just some blather about being a public figure and Harry Reid being vicious.

    This ain’t bean bag, Stuck. Nothing vicious about stating the truth. George Romney had morals. Something, sadly, his son seems to have missed out on.

  80. 80
    EconWatcher says:

    @jwb:

    “Getting inside his head” is a good point I hadn’t considered. The Mittster might just explode on this one. Especially if he feels, deep down inside, that he’ll never be the man his father was. Which he probably does.

  81. 81
    waynski says:

    @wrb: @ Mark S.

    I think saying George Romney would be ashamed of his son was sleazy,

    wrb: “Fucking why.
    Mitt is not meeting the standard set by his father.
    Pointing out this glaring failure of character in a presidential candidate is somehow sleazy?
    It gives Mitt a chance to explain why his father would not, in fact, be disappointed in him.
    Which should be entertaining.”

    I do think it’s a little sleazy. I didn’t like it when the same shit was pulled on Tweety’s show against Ron Reagan, Jr. by, I think it was Frank Gaffney.

    That said, it’s a little different. RR,jr. isn’t running for anything and I think there’s a broader strategy here, which is 1) Getting into Mitt’s head, forcing errors, hence keeping the story alive. 2) Every time he has to deny rumors about his tax returns, it makes it harder and harder and harder for him not to release them, and if he doesn’t, there’s going to be a massive question mark over his head in the fall, just the way there was over John Kerry’s.

    Voter question on Kerry: Why would his fellow soldiers say things like that about him? There must be something to this.

    Voter question on Romney: Why won’t he release his tax returns? He must be hiding something pretty awful.

    Chicago is running Bush’s 2004 re-election campaign and they’re doing it very well. Was Reid sleazy? Yes. Is it working? You betchya.

  82. 82
    geg6 says:

    @EconWatcher:

    Yup, ol’ Harry is in W. Rmoney’s head, killin’ his doodz. Willard is well aware that he is not the man his dad was and it is guaranteed to drive him crazy that ol’ Harry is pointing it out. Publicly. Numerous times.

    Heh.

  83. 83
    General Stuck says:

    @geg6:

    You can’t read. Or understand what you read. I said I am all fucking for what Reid did. The part about ‘a little vicious’ was not stated as that being bad in any way,as I said it in relation to the question asked on why some dems think Harry is over the line. Now take that emo purity and stuff it. yer a real internet bad ass, we all know that.

  84. 84
    JGabriel says:

    __
    __
    Wait. You mean on top of Mitt Romney’s tax fraud issues, he’s a pederast too?

    I mean, Republicans always project their faults and crimes onto others, so if they’re accusing a Democrat of being a pederast, that must mean Romney is a pederast. Right?

    .

  85. 85
    McJulie says:

    The clean version I have seen is that Harry Reid eats kittens.

    It’s obviously an attempt to do a “GlennBeckRapedAndMurderedAYoungGirlIn1990” kind of thing, so I can’t say the right started it, exactly. But it’s like every other time the right wing tries to use a meme or rhetorical technique that originated on the left: they clearly don’t get it, so it falls flat.

    The problem here is that if Reid’s suggestion is true — it’s not even an accusation. Whatever Romney did will no doubt have turned out to be perfectly legal, because a guy that rich can hire the best accountants.

    If true, it’s an indictment of policy, not Romney in particular. In some years, he could probably say, “well, of course I took advantages of all the tax loopholes I could, I’m not stupid.” But in the current climate, there will be no positive way to spin it.

    He’s not protecting himself. He’s protecting Republican economic theory.

  86. 86
    wrb says:

    Imagine this series of adds

    show George walking out over racism
    show Mitt pandering to racists

    show factories George opened
    show factories Mitt closed
    “Mitt is what has gone wrong with America”
    “Mitt is the problem”

    Show George standing firm
    Show Mitt flip flopping
    “Mitt is…

    Show George looking down-to-earth
    Show that picture of the Bain guys lighting cigars with dollars
    “Mitt is what has gone wrong with America…”

    Show George releasing his taxes
    BOOM

  87. 87
    Valdivia says:

    Also, too. Booman makes another excellent point about how Politico is crying about how Obama will never win because of the South, but how the media ignores how Romney has spent 6 years living in NH and can’t even win that state.

  88. 88
    Nemesis says:

    Reid doesnt wear a g-string under his suit. He wears magic undies, like mitt.

    Although, I suppose one could wear both.

  89. 89
    shortstop says:

    @Valdivia: Politico can’t fucking count electoral votes, or, more to the point, refuses to in order to create a breathless fake conflict. Words cannot express how much I despise that outfit.

  90. 90
    redshirt says:

    @wrb: Bam! Killer ad. Love to see an “unaffiliated” Dem SuperPAC put it out during the convention.

  91. 91
    Yutsano says:

    @Valdivia: Willard isn’t even coming close to winning any of his supposed home states. Yet not a peep of doom from teh media. Funny that.

    @shortstop: Horse. Race. They needs it. Otherwise how else are they gonna get that sweet sweet PAC cash?

  92. 92
    Valdivia says:

    @shortstop:

    me too. I refuse refuse to click on their links but know what they write because Political Wire usually tells me. I see there too that there is yet another article about how Obama is trying to depress the white vote to win. But that might be from some other place like buzzfeed or The Hill.

  93. 93
    shortstop says:

    @Yutsano: Only Utah. Not the other–what, three? Michigan, Massachusetts, New Hampshire? Have I missed any?

  94. 94
    f space that says:

    I am guessing Mitt took advantage of the 2009 IRS amnesty for illegal UBS tax shelters.

  95. 95
  96. 96
    shortstop says:

    @Valdivia: DEPRESS THE WHITE VOTE?! WTF is that? 78 percent of the population?!

  97. 97
    shortstop says:

    @redshirt: Really? I missed that one. How so?

  98. 98
    redshirt says:

    @shortstop: He’s got that mega mansion on the coast where he wanted to (or did) install the car elevator.

  99. 99
    wrb says:

    @shortstop:

    He has a house in La Jolla where his cars have elevators.

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ti.....37317.html

  100. 100
    Nemesis says:

    Every day we talk about tax returns, we arent talking about the economy. Thats WIN.

  101. 101
    raven says:

    @shortstop: Depress not suppress, it’s working!

  102. 102
    Valdivia says:

    @shortstop:

    I know! It’s like they tried this argument two weeks ago to make the voter suppression efforts of Republicans have an equal on the other side, so they are back with that one again. Ugh.

    (and the article is from BuzzFeed)

  103. 103
    jwb says:

    @wrb: That’s an ad for an outside group to make, not the Obama campaign.

  104. 104
    General Stuck says:

    I been a Reid supporter from day one, and already knew he is a tough pol hombre when he thinks it’s appropriate. The only real problem I’ve had with his leadership, was in 2007, when he agreed to bypass cloture votes, and agreed to have all votes be a supermajority straight to a final vote passage of a bill. That was a mistake, and Harry realized that at some point, and stopped doing it. Otherwise, Harry Reid is a born and often brilliant tactician in a complicated chamber of congress. He is not that ideological, and it is off the mark the accusations from liberals in the past, that he is a DINO, or whatever the term of derision used. Harry Reid, above all else, wants to get things done, and that means compromise in the senate. I don’t consider that a fault in and of itself, except when taken to extremes, that Harry did in 2007, with the scuttling of making wingers actually vote for cloture for filibustering, and that has long since been stopped.

    So for all you jonny come lately dems to the support of Harry Reid, after unfairly smearing him for years now. Welcome aboard, even if way late on that. Same goes for fair weather Obama supporters, that are all in now.
    Just don’t blow purity smoke up my ass.

  105. 105
    Brian R. says:

    @maya:

    I prefer to call the scandal “The Point of No Returns.”

  106. 106
    wrb says:

    @raven:

    I don’t know how they’ll fare with voter suppression, but at voter depression they’re doing great.

  107. 107
    geg6 says:

    @General Stuck:

    I understood it. You support it, I get it. But you, much like far too many of the mushy left of center pundits, are only too happy to call Harry Reid vicious.

    And seriously, Stuck, “emo purity”? For real? So now I’m some sort of firebagger? Dude, I’m beginning to think you’re the one who can’t read.

    That said, this is not worth arguing about. Not today.

  108. 108
    joes527 says:

    I’m not a huge fan of hurling speculative accusations at anyone. If it were up to me, Harry Reid would either provide facts or shut up. OTOH, in the bigger picture, this doesn’t even make the top 100 thing that bother me about our politics, so … whatever.

    My biggest concern is that Harry Reid might be getting Dan Rather’d

    If Mitt has mildly embarrassing but not campaign ending tax returns, and decided that he was going to release them and just get it over with, I wouldn’t put it past him to run a false flag operation first to refocus the release on the fact that Democrats suck.

    Of course this assumes that Mitt does not have campaign ending tax returns and is up to playing eleventy dimensional chess. (facts not in evidence)

  109. 109
    shortstop says:

    @redshirt: Right! (Slaps head.)

  110. 110
    f space that says:

    @joes527:
    Kind of like having to defend yourself for four years by producing a birth certificate, etc.

    Sauce for the goose etc. Go Harry !

  111. 111
    redshirt says:

    @joes527: Have you studied Mitt’s political career? There’s no “false flag operation”. There’s no Eleven dimensional chess. What you see is what Mitt is – an empty shell stuffed full of 100 dollar bills.

  112. 112
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @McJulie:

    It’s obviously an attempt to do a “GlennBeckRapedAndMurderedAYoungGirlIn1990” kind of thing, so I can’t say the right started it, exactly. But it’s like every other time the right wing tries to use a meme or rhetorical technique that originated on the left: they clearly don’t get it, so it falls flat.

    Yup. See also Mickey Kaus’ predilection for goats, which was a direct response to him flogging rumors that John Edwards had a love child. Kaus was ultimately proven right, but he’s such an unctuous asshole that no one cares. Especially the goats.

    The problem here is that if Reid’s suggestion is true—it’s not even an accusation. Whatever Romney did will no doubt have turned out to be perfectly legal, because a guy that rich can hire the best accountants.

    The problem is that the counter-rumor has to be at least plausible; e.g., Kaus blowing goats. Reid doesn’t give off the pederast vibe.

    Oh, and George Romney would be ashamed of that piece of shit he spawned, and anyone too embarrassed to point that out is part of the reason Democrats usually lose.

  113. 113
    shortstop says:

    @joes527: Rather was able to be nailed because all his eggs were in one basket. There is a world of campaign-threatening deliciousness in Mitt’s returns. If those things are released, no one except a few winger bloggers are going to say Mitt was vindicated from Reid’s charges, because the country will be too busy focusing on all the politically devastating stuff that is in there.

  114. 114
    jwb says:

    @joes527: That scenario does not worry me in the least: What in the Mittwit’s campaign thus far shows any evidence of the working of even a rudimentary tactical and strategic intelligence?

  115. 115
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @NotMax: all the more argument Mittens should have released the returns last year. By now he could have easily explained it away as “that’s how it works when you own a business. If you have complaints about the mess, talk to the IRS since that’s their rules” Now it doesn’t matter, the mem Mittens is prick who thinks he is above the rules has settled in.

  116. 116
    joes527 says:

    @f space that:

    Kind of like having to defend yourself for four years by producing a birth certificate, etc.

    Yeah well, I thought (think) that that sucked (sucks) too.

    Not a perfect analogy. The quest for the one true birth certificate hasn’t been really about records since Obama released the proper legal document in 2008.

  117. 117
    wrb says:

    @shortstop:

    If those things are released, no one except a few winger bloggers are going to say Mitt was vindicated from Reid’s charges, because the country will be too busy focusing on all the politically devastating stuff that is in there.

    Yep, if they are released, Reid “wins” by using a clever stratagem, forcing the weak Romney to fold.

    If they aren’t released, well then, Romney must have made a fortune selling his bodies of aborted Christian babies for medical research after baptizing them in secret midnight rights in secure Mormon Temples then hid his profits in the offshore accounts that fund his heroin and child porn white slavery enterprises, because why else?

    Reid’s play is beauty.

  118. 118
    General Stuck says:

    @geg6:

    That said, this is not worth arguing about. Not today

    Good decision after making a fool out of yourself. And I’ve always been a fan of Harry Reid, as well as Obama. For better or worse.

  119. 119
    PeakVT says:

    @wrb: Not yet. Romney’s plan is to tear down the house in the photo and replace it with one with a car elevator. Here’s Mitt’s joint.

  120. 120
    xian says:

    @JR in WV: that was the Mitt itself, hiding behind Hannity’s radio show skirts.

  121. 121
    marv says:

    I didn’t take Reid’s reference to George Romney to be sleazy because they’re both Mormons and in my understanding of Mormonism, family relationships are forever. Reid, as one Mormon to another, could quite legitimately believe that Romney’s father is suffering over this as we speak. I mean, they’re baptizing dead people from other religions as if it matters, so it hardly seems bad taste to me to talk this way about Romney’s dad.

  122. 122
    geg6 says:

    @General Stuck:

    Good decision after making a fool out of yourself.

    Assumes facts not in evidence. I wasn’t the one flinging accusations of viciousness around. I’m one of the people wanting to hug Harry Reid.

    Anyway, my work is done here.

  123. 123
    xian says:

    @Mark S.: clinton told hw bush that Prescott would be ashamed of him too.

  124. 124
    General Stuck says:

    @geg6:

    I wasn’t the one flinging accusations of viciousness around. I’m one of the people wanting to hug Harry Reid.

    THIS is what I meant by ’emo purity’. Now, again, WHO is the one flinging accusations around? The readers can decide from those facts in evidence. Personally, I am a supporter, and sometimes practitioner of viciousness, when the timing is right. Clears the air and sinuses.

  125. 125
    Lawnguylander says:

    Rather was also nailed because he’s kind of stupid. It takes very different qualities to become an anchorman than to become top guy in the Senate. Harry Smash.

    @Bobby Thomson:

    Oh, and George Romney would be ashamed of that piece of shit he spawned, and anyone too embarrassed to point that out is part of the reason Democrats usually lose.

    The Democrats are about to go 4-2-1 in presidential elections since the end of the Reagan era. “Democrats usually lose” is a feeling, not a fact.

  126. 126
    xian says:

    @geg6: the Dems are inside Rmoney’s OODA loop.

  127. 127
    Lawnguylander says:

    @f space that:

    @joes527:

    It’s nothing like the birth certificate demands. Every presidential candidate faces scrutiny over his tax returns. This one is unique because he hasn’t followed tradition and he’s getting his ass kicked over it. No candidate but Obama has faced questions over his birth certificate. Bucking the tradition of being white is where he went wrong.

  128. 128
    Roger Moore says:

    @waynski:

    Voter question on Kerry: Why would his fellow soldiers say things like that about him? There must be something to this.
    __
    Voter question on Romney: Why won’t he release his tax returns? He must be hiding something pretty awful.

    That’s still not a fair comparison. Kerry had no control over what his fellow soldiers said about him, and there were plausible reasons (e.g. he participated in anti-war stuff after he got home) for them to slander him. OTOH, Mitt has complete control over whether or not he releases his taxes, and there’s no plausible reason for refusing to release them that doesn’t make him look bad. Hell, he and his surrogates have pretty much admitted that he’s not releasing them because they contain stuff that could be used against him in the campaign. All Reid is doing is speculating about exactly what is so bad; that there is something bad is already established.

  129. 129
    Mike in NC says:

    @Mark S.:

    RIP John Keegan

    A great military historian. I was very excited to meet him and get a book autographed when he did a lecture at the Smithsonian back in the mid-90s.

  130. 130
    jwest says:

    The story about Harry Reid beating his wife has been completely debunked.

    There is no truth whatsoever that Reid ever laid a hand on his wife for questioning the screams and cries coming from their basement.

    How do these rumors get started in the first place?

  131. 131
    Roger Moore says:

    @Lawnguylander:

    No candidate but Obama has faced questions over his birth certificate.

    And he kept being hounded over his birth certificate after he had produced it, had officials in Hawaii swear up and down that it was legitimate, found official birth announcements in Honolulu newspapers that were based on hospital records rather than submissions by parents, and sold a mug emblazoned with his birth certificate in his campaign store. Romney’s tax returns won’t be comparable until he puts them on his web site, has his accountant and the IRS swear they’re genuine, and still have mainstream Democrats claim they’re fake.

  132. 132
    Rafer Janders says:

    @waynski:

    Voter question on Kerry: Why would his fellow soldiers say things like that about him? There must be something to this.

    John Kerry did not have “fellow soldiers” because John Kerry was never a soldier. John Kerry was an officer in the US Navy. Naval personnel are not soldiers, they are sailors.

  133. 133
    Mike Lamb says:

    @waynski: If Reid really is informed that Romney had zero net taxes, is it still sleazy?

    I know some people are speculating that this is a bluff, but I disagree. I think Romney would have released his returns yesterday if what Reid is saying is off base as it would make Reid look foolish (and Fox would have a mic in every Democrat’s face asking them to shit on Reid for it) and it would make Romney look sympathetic. The downside is absolutely huge if Reid is bluffing.

  134. 134
    Mike Lamb says:

    @jwest: Stupid comparison. The difference here is that somebody can’t prove a negative. Romney can easily disprove Reid’s allegations.

  135. 135
    JR in WV says:

    Regarding names in the Utah parks being from the book(s) of Mormon foundational theology, isn’t that because the Mormons were able to name everything afresh, by killing driving away everyone who was already there?

    So even if a stunning place of natural beauty had both a Native American name and an Euro-English American name, if everyone who knew those names “went away” – well then the new owners had to give those awesome vistas names, and they were all inspired by the Prophecies of whats ‘is name, right?

    I spent time in Utah years ago. It looks just like America, but that’s just the facade. Underneath it is as foreign as – what’s that place Dilbert’s company does business with? Yakitorystan or whatever…

    You can order a Coke at Wendys, but it tastes like it was in the pipe for a year, because it was. Houses that look like townhouse public apartments, with a door for each wife. Giant apartment sized houses in suburbs zoned single-family.

    Neighborhoods with lots of kids, but you never see them in the playground, because their time is organized 24/7. Ward houses (i.e. churches) right on the property line of the school, with a door from the school right on the property line – into the ward house. Where the kids go after school.

    And Jews become Gentiles upon entering the state. Strange! Last time we were in Utah it was a couple of hundred yards to reach the road to Monument Valley, coming from Arizona. No money spent in Utah.

    Though we would like to visit the north side of the Grand Canyon, which necessitates travel in Utah. Sigh.

    Go Harry. Make him show us the paperwork. Willard, put up or shut up! Like his staff doesn’t understand what that means. Mittster is the guy who has something to put up, or just shut up and accept OUR definition of his tax returns!

    Freaking crazed theocrats! They’re why libruls need CCW permits and guns! So they can’t burn us at the stake!

  136. 136
    Mnemosyne says:

    @McJulie:

    [Romney]’s not protecting himself. He’s protecting Republican economic theory.

    That’s what I think as well. I think that every single line and deduction on those returns is 100 percent legal, and that’s why he can’t release them. He can’t let ordinary people see the kind of tax laws that rich people have written for themselves even as they whine about how horrible their high taxes are.

    If if comes out that Romney didn’t pay taxes for even one of those missing years — or, better, got a refund — his entire economic argument about how rich people are over-taxed is blown to pieces and he just handed the Obama administration a big giant club to smash the Bush tax cuts with.

  137. 137
    Mnemosyne says:

    @jwest:

    There’s a very simple way for Romney to debunk this. All he has to do is do what every other presidential candidate has done since George Romney and release his tax forms.

    So why hasn’t Romney done what every other presidential candidate has done for over 40 years? Enquiring minds want to know.

  138. 138
    redshirt says:

    @jwest: Ouch! More biting Rightwing response. I’m sure that will work! LOL.

    Your desperation is showing, and it’s wonderful. :)

  139. 139
    liberal says:

    @Roger Moore:

    Kerry had no control over what his fellow soldiers said about him, and there were plausible reasons (e.g. he participated in anti-war stuff after he got home) for them to slander him.

    Exactly.

  140. 140
    liberal says:

    @JR in WV:

    You can order a Coke at Wendys, but it tastes like it was in the pipe for a year, because it was. Houses that look like townhouse public apartments, with a door for each wife. Giant apartment sized houses in suburbs zoned single-family.

    For me, the weird thing was this: I was at a conference in Park City while in grad school in MA. I went to what appeared to be a bar, and the hostess said something about finding me a sponsor. I thought, “what the hell is this, a whorehouse or something?” Turns out there aren’t “bars” per se.

    OTOH, I could by alcoholic stuff in non-liquor/non-beer/non-wine stores (I think e.g. a 7-11), which I couldn’t do in MA.

    So it’s not so clear that it’s uniformly f*cked up.

  141. 141
    liberal says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    He can’t let ordinary people see the kind of tax laws that rich people have written for themselves even as they whine about how horrible their high taxes are.

    Jesus, the law (at least as applied) is so disgusting in so many ways, like the fact that the truly rich (as opposed to say the “lower upper class”) pay essentially no estate tax because of BS involving trust/insurance wrappers/whatever.

  142. 142
    Someguy says:

    It’s okay for Reid to be an agent provocateur but there’s no indication that he’s intelligent about it in any way, and he risks backlash. For instance – “we know from the returns he has released that he has secret bank accounts hidden in Switzerland and Bermuda.”

    Hey, dumfuk – if he discloses them on his tax return, they aren’t exactly secret and hidden. Simple errors like that don’t inspire confidence that his stragity is well thought out, and makes me wonder if he’s not heading us down a hole.

    I love the idea of him going after Mittens at high noon with pistols drawn. But I’m getting the feeling that ol’ Hit ’em Low Harry has both barrels stuck in his mouth and he’s getting ready to pull the trigger…

  143. 143
    Yutsano says:

    @redshirt: They’re so cute when they fail. And when asked for one reason to vote for Willard, I got nothing back. The wingnuts KNOW they’re out of gas. I choose to enjoy this.

    @Someguy:

    Hey, dumfuk – if he discloses them on his tax return, they aren’t exactly secret and hidden.

    The point, she has been missed. Your concern is duly noted however.

  144. 144
    MCA1 says:

    @McJulie: This. Even if he wasn’t caught up in the Swiss account amnesty program; even if he is tithing correctly to the CLDS; even if whatever other theories we’re all speculating on as to what the big silver bullet in his returns may be are all ultimately not the case, it doesn’t really matter. The big picture here is that at a minimum, if the returns are released, Mitt Rawmoney, with his quarter of a billion dollar net worth, will be shown to have (a) worked the system in all possible legal ways, and (b) benefitted tremendously from the complete imbalance between the way this country currently taxes labor vs. capital. My god, the guy had a deduction for his f’ing dressage horse expenses in 2010 that’s greater than the average household income in the United States. Because he set up his wife’s snooty hobby as a business.

    You think they’re whining about class warfare because they’re scared now? Just wait until everyone sees how much Romney makes every year for running for President, and how little he’s able to pay in taxes on that. He’s the ultimate embodiment of how the game’s been getting more and more rigged over the last 35 years, and his tax returns are the perfect no-spin illustration. Regardless of whether there’s anything over-the-top shady in there.

    In retrospect, it just shows up how stupid/desperate it was for the GOP to put their hopes in this guy. In a time where economic resentment is at high tide and populist rhetoric is working, you don’t put up Thurston Howell III for President.

  145. 145
    Gravenstone says:

    @jwest: Aww, sadpanda is sad.

  146. 146
    Cassandra says:

    Just follow the money.

  147. 147
    TheLastBrainLeft says:

    You seem upset.

  148. 148
    TheLastBrainLeft says:

    @liberal: You have absolutely no understanding of estate tax regulations.

  149. 149
    Smedley the Uncertain says:

    @General Stuck:

    Hit a nerve did he…?

  150. 150
    Smedley the Uncertain says:

    @General Stuck:

    Hit a nerve did he…?@General Stuck: And THAT Fact is definetly in evidence.

  151. 151
    Smedley the Uncertain says:

    Unable to edit second entry…

    S

  152. 152
    Someguy says:

    @Yutsano:

    The point, she has been missed. Your concern is duly noted however.

    No, the point isn’t missed. It’s great to out Romney for being a rich elitist fucktard with bank accounts in Bermuda and Switzerland. But couldn’t Harry do it with a statement that isn’t self-deconstructing? I guess if the idiot voters get the message about Romney being a rich elitist fucktard that’s enough, but as stupid as Reid is about this, he’s providing Mittens the ammo to fire back.

  153. 153
    redshirt says:

    @Someguy: Add another to the “Stockholm Syndrome” category.

  154. 154
    General Stuck says:

    @Smedley the Uncertain:

    You seems uncertain, Smedley.

  155. 155
    WaterGirl says:

    @General Stuck: I may be wrong, but I am thinking that Harry Reid feels responsible for a lot of the stuff that hasn’t gotten done in the past 2 years because he, by his own admission, was not being willing to change the filibuster. He has recently come out to say he was wrong about that, and I think he REALLY wants Obama to have a second term so they have a second chance to get this right.

    Somebody upthread suggested that Romney isn’t protecting himself, he’s protecting republican economic theory. I don’t believe that for a minute. Romney would never put himself on the line for anything besides himself.

    When I read that Romney would rather lose the election than release the returns, and I read that he wouldn’t have run if he had thought he would have to release the returns, that’s not someone fighting for something bigger. That’s a man who is scared of what would happen to him if people saw the way he has conducted himself with respect to taxes.

    I think it’s at least 3 things:

    Not tithing his full 10%, or basing the 10% on some “letter of the law” number rather than what most people would see as his real income

    The amnesty thing with UBS

    The whole world would see who Romney really is, rather than who he pretends to be.

  156. 156
    jwb says:

    @WaterGirl: The thing I can’t quite get my head around is his seeming belief that he wouldn’t be hammered mercilessly for not releasing his returns. I mean, he used it as a tactic in his previous races, so he had to know it was coming, yet here he is looking shell shocked.

  157. 157
    WaterGirl says:

    @Roger Moore: @waynski: I kind of agree with both of you.

    I think the end result is there will be a question about Romney in voter’s minds, just as there was for Kerry, just as waynski pointed out.

    But I also agree that there is a difference. There is something definitive that Romney can do that can shut the whole thing down – just release the returns.

    There was nothing definitive that Kerry could do to shut down the swift boating.

  158. 158
    General Stuck says:

    @WaterGirl:

    Like I was saying, Harry does care about getting things done and he likely does take it personal to some degree, the gridlocked senate, since he is majority leader. And I know he has been talking about ‘fixing’ the filibuster situation, or the Cloture Rule 22. But he is likely just venting frustration on that front, as the only way to fix it, would be to abolish the ability of the minority to block leg, and half measures making them (the wingnuts) jump through some hoops to eventually get to a simple majority vote, would not fix the problem. Because there are many other rules the wingers could use to stop business in the senate, and Harry knows this, as the entire senate runs on what is called ‘ unanimous consent’, which means, if the minority didn’t have the cloture rule, they could just object to every single piece of business, calling for a vote on mundane issues that would essentially bring the body to a halt, even without the cloture rule, and with only simple majority votes. Then there is the problem that wingnuts would undo every bill they didn’t like, when they get the majority. The solution is at the ballot box, and the people neutralizing the 60 vote obstruction, by giving dems a big enough majority to render it moot.

  159. 159
    WaterGirl says:

    @jwb: Magical thinking.

  160. 160
    jwb says:

    @General Stuck: I don’t see any way the Dems get to 60 senators this year. If the Dems manage to take the House, I think you’ll see a substantial overhaul of the Senate rules, otherwise probably just enough to speed up the appointment process.

  161. 161
    WaterGirl says:

    @General Stuck: I think a lot of what holds the senate back is clinging to a lot of things that aren’t really RULES but are gentleman’s agreements, based on the collegiality that used to exist in the senate.

    I think the Democrats should just quit honoring things like secret holds, etc, that are not based on rules that actually exist.

    Edit:

    @jwb: What you said makes a lot of sense.

  162. 162
    General Stuck says:

    @jwb:

    Yes, the senate is bifurcated between executive and legislative sessions. I do think Harry and dems may well change the rule for executive session, to abolish the cloture rule for making pol appointments, and judges. It is what the republicans were prepared to do under Bush, if dems filibustered judges. The wingers would not have much credibility on opposing that, since they were proposing the same thing a few years ago. Lately, I think Mcconnell has come to that conclusion as well, that dem will change the rule for appointments if they keep the senate and WH. And has let quite a few held up votes on appointments, happen. Not for legislation though, not gonna happen. Because it won’t accomplish a fix dems would be trying for.

  163. 163
    redshirt says:

    I’m actually a bit nervous about changing filibuster rules only because what happens when/if Repukes get their 51 seat “MANDATE” and then proceed to pass all manner of crazy shit. It would be nice to have a way of blocking the most odious crap.

  164. 164
    shortstop says:

    @WaterGirl:

    Somebody upthread suggested that Romney isn’t protecting himself, he’s protecting republican economic theory. I don’t believe that for a minute. Romney would never put himself on the line for anything besides himself.

    Romney’s self-interests and Republican economic theory are identical.

    People are theorizing about all sorts of illegal or borderline illegal things being in his taxes. It really doesn’t matter if his returns contain this stuff or not. What they absolutely, positively do contain is a brightly illuminated map of how the U.S. tax system favors the wealthy over the non-wealthy, capital over labor, even when all legalities are observed. Given that the GOP has chosen tax cuts for the rich as the hill to die on, Romney can’t give voters this clear illustration of how much the 1% are getting away with — not at this time of growing concern over gross income inequality and a supremely unlevel playing field.

  165. 165
    shortstop says:

    @redshirt: I think you have to assume that regardless of what the Democratic majority does with Senate rules, the next time the GOP has a majority it will kill the filibuster.

  166. 166
    redshirt says:

    @shortstop: I’m not so sure. It’s a more formidable weapon for them at this point.

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    shortstop says:

    @redshirt: These are people who were willing to let the U.S. go into default to prove an incoherent political point, and to tank the U.S. economy to prevent the black guy from getting reelected. I do not think they possess any foresight or subtle gamesmanship at this point.

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    jwb says:

    @redshirt: My gut tells me that GOP will blow up the filibuster themselves the next time it gets in their way, so although it might be nice to have as a failsafe, I don’t think the failsafe is really there any longer.

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    redshirt says:

    @shortstop: True that. They are a collective pack of idiots. That said, some “man behind the curtain” may have half a brain left. Maybe!

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    General Stuck says:

    @WaterGirl:

    think a lot of what holds the senate back is clinging to a lot of things that aren’t really RULES but are gentleman’s agreements, based on the collegiality that used to exist in the senate.

    This is correct in the generic sense, but it really isn’t ‘collegiality’ as the reason. It was why the filibuster rule we have now was first created. The minority was stopping senate business by not giving their consent on mundane matters causing a log jam for votes on everything that comes under senate business. That is also why ‘tradition of collegiality’ is vital for the senate to function as it does, a kind of brake on majority tyranny, like in the House. Every senator is like his/her own little dictatorship, with the power to monkey wrench the legislative process, if they so choose. And hide behind the vagueries of the other principle that makes the senate what it is. Of allowing “extended debate”. It is a good system, albeit anti democratic, to manage change to a slower degree from the passions of the moment. But both sides have to agree to use their minority rights judiciously, or we get what we have, or worse. Southern confederate democrats leading up to the civil war, used these tactics to pretty shut down the senate. And was more scorched earth than now. But the echoes of rebellion is present now, like then, though not yet reaching a critical mass, and hopefully it won’t.

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    WaterGirl says:

    @shortstop:

    Romney’s self-interests and Republican economic theory are identical.

    Not if part of what he is hiding related to the the required tithing.

    Otherwise, I don’t disagree with what you’ve written.

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    tones says:

    Totally not sleazy –

    Mitt’s dad “set the standard” of 12 years
    he would be ashamed.
    He paid his taxes, his tithe, and gave to charity big time -didn’t that equate to something like 50% of his income?More?
    Mitt pays 13%
    His dad would be ashamed.
    Period.

    If he paid no taxes for 10 years as is alleged – whoa Nelly, no one would forgive that on either side…
    Yeah, George would not have been proud.

  173. 173
    Tom Hilton says:

    @ding dong:
    Yup…and my favorite Reid anecdote is this one:

    In July of 1978, a man named Jack Gordon, who was later married to LaToya Jackson, offered Reid twelve thousand dollars to approve two new, carnival-like gaming devices for casino use. Reid reported the attempted bribe to the F.B.I. and arranged a meeting with Gordon in his office. By agreement, F.B.I. agents burst in to arrest Gordon at the point where Reid asked, “Is this the money?” Although he was taking part in a sting, Reid was unable to control his temper; the videotape shows him getting up from his chair and saying, “You son of a bitch, you tried to bribe me!” and attempting to choke Gordon, before startled agents pulled him off. “I was so angry with him for thinking he could bribe me,” Reid said, explaining his theatrical outburst. Gordon was convicted in federal court in 1979 and sentenced to six months in prison.

    How much would you pay to see Harry Reid try to choke the living shit out of Romney?

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    xian says:

    @Mike Lamb: funny to see what brings out old trolls. i think even the dimmer wingnuts are starting to see the handwriting on the wall. I hope the Dems have a congressional election strategy.

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    xian says:

    @MCA1: it would provide a teachable moment

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