It’s like they took notes from the vatican:
Joe Paterno appears to have played a greater role than previously known in Penn State’s handling of a 2001 report that Jerry Sandusky had sexually assaulted a boy in a university shower, according to a person with knowledge of aspects of an independent investigation of the Sandusky scandal.
E-mail correspondence among senior Penn State officials suggests that Paterno influenced the university’s decision not to formally report the accusation against Sandusky to the child welfare authorities, the person said. The university’s failure to alert the police or child welfare authorities in 2001 has been an issue at the center of the explosive scandal — having led to criminal charges against two senior administrators and the firing of Paterno last fall.
The university’s much maligned handling of the 2001 assault began when Mike McQueary, a graduate assistant in Paterno’s football program, told Paterno that he had seen Sandusky assaulting a boy of about 10 in the football building showers. McQueary has testified several times that he made clear to Paterno, and later to university officials, that what he had seen Sandusky doing to the child was terrible and explicitly sexual in nature.
To date, the public understanding of Paterno’s subsequent actions has been that he relayed McQueary’s account to the university’s athletic director and then had no further involvement in the matter.
Get these officials in jail cells next to Monsignor Lynn.
SiubhanDuinne
Is it wrong of me to regret that Paterno died before he faced earthly justice?
(Edit: caught just in time before hitting ‘submit’ — autocorrect really wanted to change Paterno to Paternoster.)
(Edit edit: and still does.)
PeakVT
W-o-w.
BGinCHI
Culture of Corruption.
cathyx
I hope they prosecute them too. Shame on them.
chopper
well you could knock me over with a feather.
salacious crumb
it was all for the money, careers..that’s how it always been..no one gives a shit about underprivileged kids.
scottinnj
power corrupts, and football power corrupts absolutely.
cathyx
But the football program was at stake….
Do you know how many jobs that saved by keeping quiet?
magurakurin
So, to the fucks that were on here last week defending Joe Paterno by saying he didn’t really commit a “crime” and bagging on those of us who were saying Paterno was a foul sack of shit and absolutely culpable …can we get a fucking “oops, my bad” please?
aimai
Color me unsurprised.
aimai
shortstop
@SiubhanDuinne:
No. No, you’re not wrong.
rikyrah
of course they knew. who didn’t think they knew?
scav
They’re all just falling over themselves defining “humane” as it best suits their purposes, well well well. . .
shortstop
@rikyrah: Everyone but a few idiots who had a lot of emotion and energy invested in Paterno’s probity.
Mr Stagger Lee
So are they going to purge the Paterno name and tear down his statue at Perv State? Probably not, Pennsyltuckians will defend this to the day they die like a poster named Sparhawk at Daily Kos.
quannlace
What makes you more ill is that they seemed to target underprivilaged kids cause they were more vulnerable and exploitable. Ugh.
hilzoy
What gets me is calling not notifying the authorities a “more humane” approach. That makes it completely clear that they were only thinking of themselves and Sandusky, not of the kids. You just couldn’t use the word ‘humane’ otherwise.
This is not the way everyone thinks. Being amoral doesn’t just come with the territory. And even if, for some reason, it did: part of being good at running any organization, I think, is being able to anticipate things, to see around corners, so that when things happen, they are not things you’re wholly unprepared for. The possibility that something like this would become public is a particularly easy corner to see around.
Which is all to say: having a heart and a conscience would have gotten them to do the right thing, but so would a reasonable amount of foresight, or even a tiny amount of imagination.
It’s a tragedy for the kids that no one seems to have had any of those things.
YellowJournalism
Roasting in Hell comes to mind.
Tony J
Anyone actually surprised? No? Thought not.
What went on at Penn State wasn’t unknown to the people in charge, they just didn’t think having a child-molestor on staff was a problem so long as no one else knew about it.
Kind of like the Catholic Church, but in miniature.
Xecky Gilchrist
We may just have to dismantle all college football programs from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
BGinCHI
Universities are generally very risk-averse when it comes to these kinds of things. Their legal counsel is always telling them to be paranoid as hell about this kind of stuff in terms of liability, etc.
That this football culture could ignore the mission of the rest of the university, and do so with the participation of the administration at the highest levels, demonstrates a thoroughly corrupt culture at PSU.
If they don’t clean massive house this kind of thing (in some other guise, like the kid who fell out of the tower and died so he could film practice at Notre Dame) will happen again.
Bullsmith
Now if the pedophiles were Hispanics and trying to vote, there would be some serious law and order in response.
How can people stand by and let this shit go unpunished. It happens again and again and again.
J.W. Hamner
I got a little rolley-eyed at the initial outrage-a-thon that washed over sports radio shows when the scandal was a new thing (“If I saw him in that shower I would have ripped off his arms and beaten him to death with them!!”), but I honestly don’t understand how nobody went “Wait a second, this guy is raping children”…. instead they treated him like he made a honest mistake and just needed a stern talking to to get things squared away.
suzanne
@SiubhanDuinne:
If it is, then I’m as guilty as you are. I wish his name could have been dragged through the mud, and I would have watched his perp walk with glee.
I wish I was not the agnostic that I am and that I had more certainty that he would be accountable in some way for his crimes.
The Dangerman
None of these released emails came from Paterno, but emails that DIDN’T come from Paterno is enough to seal the deal of his culpability from some peoples perspective. Whatever. Why don’t we wait for all the evidence to come out prior to coming to a conclusion unsubstantiated from current information (i.e., read the NYT headline; Paterno MAY have done something)?
Just as with Sandusky, who we know now to be guilty, the AD and President and the Police Chief will apparently have their days in Court; we’ll learn more of what did or did not happen…
suzanne
I will also add that I hope all those Penn State students who protested the shutdown of the football program and not CHILD RAPE meet some sort of moral accountability, as well. Fuck them. That culture gives rise to this shit.
kamalokitty
The smoking gun was sure to come. Is anyone really surprised. It’s a phenomenon that repeats itself, over and over and over again. People want to save the Mother Ship. At. All. Costs. It’s a big reason I left the Catholic church. (Well, other than the not believing in god thing).
The day the institution becomes more important than the people who support it, is the day I walk out the door.
I’m riding solo.
Legalize
Of course they knew. Who is surprised by this?
eric
i will put this in simple terms: if one of my employees tells me that he SAW another employee insert his cock into a little boy in my office……let me repeat, he SAW it happening….so, if i am told this, my reaction is to call the police AND to make sure that he is arrested and is NEVER anywhere near my facility even if the police release him…did i say the employee SAW it!!!
there is nothing more that I need to establish culpability on paterno, period.
Mnemosyne
I’m not surprised by this BUT I also think that there are going to be a whole lot of people at Penn State who are going to try and shield themselves using Paterno’s corpse — “You can’t blame me for that decision, it was all the fault of the dead guy!”
So, yes, Paterno should get his share of the blame, but there are a whole lot of living people who need to be prevented from pushing all of the blame onto him to try and exonerate themselves.
Amir Khalid
It looks like Paterno, were he still alive, might be facing charges of complicity in the cover-up, alongside the university’s athletics director and its head of campus police. Not a surprise to anyone. I wonder if the Freeh investigation will lead to charges against the university president as well.
Loyalty to an institution is in itself a good thing. But here it led these men to overlook their obligation to young rape victims — because the rapist was one of their own, and they wanted to treat him in a “humane” way.
That word. It does not mean what they think it means.
magurakurin
@The Dangerman: why someone wants to go to the mat for Joe Pa is beyond my ken. Some sort of principled philosophical stance I guess. Doesn’t seem like a good hill to die on to me.
Rock on, bro.
Rommie
@cathyx: And if said football program is shut down for a year or two, it will also shut down all the other sports that depend on that revenue, and all the people who support everything.
That’s the counter to suggesting Penn State get SMU’d in football. And I say, that’s the PRICE for being criminally stupid. You are supposed to make the decisions that do not put your football program in that position. And that’s beside the moral, ethical, and legal decisions these guys are increasingly looking like they ignored.
“We can’t shut down Penn State Football, it’s too big to fail!”
scav
We may never know for sure, but somehow the revelation that a man who thought he could dictate where and when he would retire, is now entirely out of the loop on issues involving his own staff, well, strike me down, I’ve seen that dewy wide-eyed innocent and ineffective look on Alberto Gonzales and Murdoch père et fils.
Dr. Loveless
People like Paterno are why I hope there’s a hell, and that it has a pound-me-in-the-ass section.
Silver
You really expect a senile old fuck to read emails?
A little slap and tickle is all. Good enough for Viagra Rush, good enough for Penn State, I say.
cathyx
@Rommie: I completely agree with you. But they don’t have to shut down the program. That will take care of itself, especially if they prosecute all the people who kept quiet about everything.
Hypatia's Momma
@quannlace:
I believe it’s fairly rare for any sexual abuse victim to have not been, in relation to the abuser, vulnerable and exploitable. “Troubled” children, no matter their age, are especially easy targets.
The Dangerman
@magurakurin:
Some of us remember the McMartin Case (used to drive by the place regularly in Manhattan Beach). I just find the hysteria rather unfortunate (and one doesn’t have to look to hard in this thread to see evidence of the hysteria).
robertdsc-PowerBook
Personally, I think all of Paterno’s games won should be vacated, the scholarships revoked, the program cancelled, and the stadium razed to the ground. Penn State should never, ever, ever play football again.
Mnemosyne
@The Dangerman:
Ah, so you’re sticking with your conviction that Sandusky is totally innocent and will be exonerated later despite little things like eyewitnesses that were lacking in the McMartin case.
Karen
@suzanne:
Im sure there’s a place in hell just for paterno where he’s being raped over and over.
Amir Khalid
Joseph Paterno didn’t quite escape earthly judgement. He lived to see his career ended and his good name ruined. I guess the prosecutors held off on charging him since they knew he was already dying of cancer.
Let’s see what the prosecutors do with his surviving colleagues. Whom they charge and what with, and how those cases go.
Also, once the dust has settled, let’s see how Pennsylvania State University goes about taking that much-needed long hard look in the mirror. I fear people there might shirk this. Instead they might tell themselves, “The rapist is going to jail, the guys who covered up for him are out, it could never happen again.” The needed changes don’t happen. And then all will be well again at Penn State, until the nest Jerry Sandusky shows up.
eric
@Amir Khalid: wait for the public outcry when the school is “forced” to pay civil settlements….i know it is coming….i am prepared for the worst….
The Dangerman
@Mnemosyne:
Huh? Did I not say Sandusky was guilty? I think I did. Go back and read it (#25, for your reading pleasure).
This is what I mean by hysteria. My remarks about McMartin were related to Paterno and what he knew/did/did not do.
David Koch
but this happened in 2001. let’s remember 9/11 changed everything. reporting child molesters was pre-9/11 thinking.
kevin
Lovely. One day they are gung ho on telling children services. The next day “I had a conversation with JOe, and I’m not sure that is the right thing to do anymore”
Dangerman Paterno, it’s best to just avoid this topic, you won’t find sympathy for the man here. All those men were a bunch of cowards who turned away while a man raped young boys.
kevin
Oh, and I’d like to pre-empt the inevitable “why do you have to mention the Vatican? Not all Catholics are bad” that someone will probably bring up…shut up, the Vatican is Penn State times a million. you may be a great catholic, but the institution, like Penn State, sucks.
The Other Bob
Isn’t this a good example of why we should never build statues, name ships or otherwise worship a living person?
The Dangerman
@kevin:
Which I find phenomenally sad; believing without facts is typically the domain of the Right (Obama’s a Kenyan, Obamacare is the biggest tax increase in history, etc.).
Marcellus Shale, Public Dick
penn state cargo cult. instead of white outs, they should have old navy outs.
scav
@The Dangerman: it’s just that you’re getting a little too gatekeepery about what is or isn’t a fact and the allowable conclusions one is ‘permitted’ to draw from them. Yes, there’s been some hyperbole but there’s also a solid case for suspicion.
martian
@Mnemosyne: OT: I left a late comment for you in the pet bleg thread that you might not have seen about a rehab facility in Arlington Heights my family had a really good experience with. Hope things work out well for your family.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@David Koch: reporting child molesters was pre-9/11 thinking.
But it was reported, to the people with jurisdiction. Even at my rather small university, they made it clear to us in freshman orientation that you don’t call the town police about something that happened on campus. The town would just refer the matter to the campus police, delaying any response.
I thought it pretty clear from the Grand Jury testimony that McQueary believed he was leaving it in the hands of the people responsible for following up on it, that the VP in charge of the campus police and the AD did not follow through properly, and that we didn’t have enough information about Paterno’s role in the whole mess. (Sad to say, I find “too squicked to have actually heard the details” to be a believable response, especially from someone Paterno’s age.)
It’s not easy to prosecute cases like this. Without additional witnesses or the victim available to testify, it’s he said/he said. In McQueary’s place, I could have been convinced that the case would fail in court and that restricting Sandusky’s access to campus is all that could be done.
I might have eventually found a way to tip off a reporter or a state-level AG. Depends on how much I continued to trust the men in charge.
RossInDetroit
I just read that article before I got here. It’s shocking that the NYT is covering this on their sports ‘pages’ under the College Football heading. This has nothing to do with sports. It was sexual abuse and a coverup by powerful people. Where are your proprities, Grey Lady?
The Dangerman
@scav:
OK, I’ll agree to “suspicion” regarding Paterno, which is a far cry from some of the shit being tossed about in this thread.
As for facts, I think (regarding Paterno only) that I can count the number of facts in this matter on one hand, even if I were to have had a nasty woodworking accident.
gelfling545
@SiubhanDuinne: Last week it wanted me to change ad hominem to Eminem. Yep. still does today too. Where does it get these things!
Dan
@The Dangerman: That’s a really poor comparison. While we do not yet know all of the details, there is sufficient evidence that Paterno was at the very
least, grossly negligent in his duties. If anything, your refusal
to accept basic evidence here is parallel to the birthers who persist I their beliefs despite the birth certificate.
scav
@The Dangerman: We’ll just agree to have different assumptions about how much influence JP had on decisions involving his staff without the hard evidence of email, but I’m fine with that.
HRA
Nobody circles the wagons like [insert name here] of those who are driven by the love of money before morals.
Right after the news about Penn State and in conjunction with the prior fatal happenings on other campuses, the new university president sent out an email to all it’s employees with the steps of how to proceed in certain situations we may have witnessed. In a few days following this email, there was a disturbance close to my area and I was not in to work yet. One person went to report it to campus police. They investigated it and determined it was not worthy of going further with it unless it recurred. The higher authority gave the person reporting it a tongue lashing and he is no longer in their good graces. He vows to never report anything ever again.
catclub
Unlike the RCC, Penn state has had Sandusky go to prison after less than six months of investigation and trial, and lots of people fired. The RCC would still be fighting the first subpoena for documents.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@The Dangerman:
Yes, but just one of those facts is pretty damning. Paterno’s story is that McQueary told him that there was inappropriate behavior of a sexual nature going on in the shower. His claim is that he did not know that it was a rape. As I said, that’s *Paterno’s* story, so it’s pretty safe to assume that at least that much is true.
One can make an arguable claim that Paterno didn’t break any laws, but that’s only because it isn’t at all clear that he was covered by mandatory reporting laws (which is one possible explanation to Amir Khalid’s question for why he was never charged). But from a moral standpoint, it’s pretty much established that Paterno engaged in at least one instance of reprehensible and negligent behavior. If he was further involved in the cover up, as the NYT suggests, that only adds to his culpability that we already know exists.
The Dangerman
@Dan:
Actually, no, there is not; go back to last week’s thread for a more detailed examination of those facts.
As for my comparison, I still find it correct. I’m not the one creating facts out of thin air…
…and, if there is the equivalent of a “birth certificate” in this case, I’m all ears, but I haven’t heard it yet. Once again, look at the NYT; in their story, they were far from ready to effectively hang Paterno in effigy. I find my position entirely consistent with the papers position.
And Another Thing...
@The Dangerman: Sandusky was investigated in 1998 for a shower incident, and retired in ’99 at the age of 55 after a very successful coaching career. It’s just not credible that Paterno didn’t know about the 1998 investigation or have some involvement in Sandusky’s early retirement.
The Dangerman
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
I don’t think that’s true; he reported the matter. The failure was clearly above him based upon what we know so far.
As for what his superiors did or didn’t do, well, we’ll learn someday. Hopefully. Hopefully, even more, we’ll even learn more about why they did or didn’t do it; if the guilt falls to Paterno, so shall it be…
…but, right now, making some of these clear judgments based entirely on unclear facts would appear to be unwarranted.
With this, I’m done; I’m tired.
Raven
He’s fucking DEAD. Dead.
so is this thread
Lyrebird
@Dan: Actually there’s a big difference imnsho. If you look at the CNN article instead, there’s nothing that substantiates Paterno as the influencer. Guilty as hell by his negligence? sure. But I think it’s important to look for accurate reporting even on issues that get me raging…
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/30/justice/penn-state-emails/index.html
h/t Lawyers, Guns, and Money… Paul Campos neatly picked out what I found most damning of all (of Spanier in this case):
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/
*”plan” being to “keep the situation an internal affair and talk things over with Sandusky instead of notifying the state’s child welfare agency to investigate Sandusky’s suspicious activity…” and to “assist” Sandusky in getting professional help, all at Curley’s suggestion.
If nothing else, there’s plenty of evidence here that the administrators (Curley, Schultz, Spanier) lied through their teeth.
Corner Stone
@The Dangerman:
Fascinating.
Shalimar
@The Dangerman:
You’re willfully ignoring one important fact, which is that Paterno had more power at Penn State than any of his “superiors”, especially AD Curley. If Paterno didn’t tell them what to do about his friend, then they were acting based on what they interpreted his interest to be. Notice there is no concern whatsoever for the rape victims in these emails. There is no set of possible facts where Paterno’s legacy wasn’t at the very least the reason for covering up Sandusky’s crimes.
Donut
@The Dangerman:
My god. You are an inhuman piece of shit.
Shalimar
@Lyrebird:
From Curley’s email: “After giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe yesterday, I am uncomfortable with what we agreed were the next steps.”
That is a pretty clear signal to Spanier that what follows is what Paterno wants to happen.
The Dangerman
@Donut:
I take it you disagree with me?
For other Folks that disagree with me, you own Donut-Hole, too.
See, this is why I departed the thread (yes, I came back; my mistake). I wanted to leave prior to other accusations of my getting off like Sandusky does or similar. I guess instead of being called a child rapist (or similar), just being called an inhuman piece of shit will have to do.
Now, really, I’m done. I’ll try to stay done.
magurakurin
@Donut:
well, all the facts aren’t in evidence yet, but there is reason for suspicion.
AxelFoley
I’m shocked–SHOCKED–at this revelation!
Corner Stone
JoePa was Zeus on a Stick at PSU. Don’t fucking try and bring it that he dumped to a superior and then washed his god damned hands.
scav
@The Dangerman: You’ll condemn everyone that disagrees with you in this tread for the actions of a random person on the internet that also disagrees without but you won’t condemn one man of being involved in a decision involving his subordinate without written evidence. I think you’re getting a little too involved emotionally by now.
Steve in DC
It’s college and just gets the college advantage, aka move the fuck on, it’s education, nothing to see here.
Honestly, get over it. That or start attacking colleges for all their shit, but either slam them and the people that go to them, or let it go, none of this half assed shit.
magurakurin
@The Dangerman:
There isn’t even enough there to disagree with. You some how expect people to believe that a figure as controlling and powerful as Paterno didn’t know what a monster that his number two man was.
For me, you might as well try to convince me the sky is orange.
like I said, rock on bro.
shortstop
@scav:
I always admire your understated elegance of expression.
Hypatia's Momma
@Steve in DC:
So silly of people to regard decades of child-rape as something serious, right? The rape of children is “just” a “college advantage” and everyone (including, I presume, the victims?) should “just get over it”?
To quote Marlin, from Finding Nemo: There is something really wrong with you.
kevin
I’m sorry, but screw Joe Paterno. At the very least, he knew that his former coach was twice accused of child rape. Even if it was only the second time that he knew about (which i find hard to believe), he knew. And did he stop him from using his training facilities to be with other young boys? No.
So take your “you guys are being like the right” or your “there was another case years ago that wasn’t this case but i’ll use it to pretend people are overreacting” crap out of here. Paterno was an adult, he knew that this man was accused (and a man he trusted to be his assistant said he saw him actually doing something, so this wasn’t some rumour he happened to over hear), and he turned a blind eye. That is disgusting.
You don’t have to worship the man, he was flawed like everyone, and there is more evidence then not to say that he failed as a human being in this case.
Nom de Plume
If you’re a living legend who is the face of Penn State football for decades, then we have two choices when something like this happens:
1. All that “legend” stuff is bullshit and you were really just a powerless figurehead who didn’t know what his closest employees were doing, or;
2. You lied to the grand jury like a fucking rug.
Neither of these options is flattering to Joe Paterno.
magurakurin
@Nom de Plume:
yep. and, in fact, number 1 is demonstrably false.
Eric U.
I have a plan to take my portable welder over to the statue of Joe at Beaver Stadium and move the finger he has raised over a knuckle. He apparently hated the fact that they only had one finger raised anyway, he always ran onto the field with two raised.
Either that, or park my van in front of Paterno’s house with “free candy” painted on the side.
slightly_peeved
Part of accepting responsibility in any job is that if something bad happens in the area, or with the people, you are supervising, and it could have been anticipated, it’s partly your fault. When you accept that role, you accept that responsibility.
The onus is on Paterno to explain how Sandusky was able to do what he did when a clear part of Paterno’s job, legally and ethically, was to provide a safe environment for those young athletes.
WaynersT
I always thought it was weird (and mentioned in the linked article as well) that McQueary said Paterno immediately thought he was calling for a job and said there would not be one – but afterwards McQueary did get the job. The article even mentions he was chosen over a more experienced staffer.
That always seemed like a big tell on Paterno’s motivations/actions.
Protect himself/his program at all costs.
Jay in Oregon
@quannlace:
It reminds me of the line from the Mungo Jerry song In The Summertime:
If her daddy’s rich, take her out for a meal
If her daddy’s poor, just do what you feel
mike in dc
Paul Campos over at Lawyers, Guns and Money has an excellent breakdown of what this means. We won’t know precisely what Joe Paterno said and did until these guys are deposed under oath, and under threat of both criminal indictment and major civil liability.
Mnemosyne
@The Dangerman:
Of course, the whole point of the McMartin case was that nothing actually happened — no kids were molested there at all. It all spun out of control because overzealous and poorly trained prosectors took the accusations of a paranoid schizophrenic as truth.
So I do find it curious that you would choose McMartin — a case that revolved around completely false accusations of child abuse — as your comparison point for a case that involves proven, witnessed child abuse.
gwangung
@Mnemosyne: Mayhaps Dangerman is under the impression that the Sandusky verdict hasn’t come in and the actions are still alleged.
A hint, dude: when a verdict’s reached, it stops being alleged.
geg6
@Amir Khalid:
You’ll never see this post, but I can assure you that the current administration and especially the staff is taking steps to try to make sure it never happens again. I know because I’m living through the aftermath.
Jim C
@Jay in Oregon:
Jay, in all the years I’ve heard that song, I’ve really never once paid attention to the lyrics. I’m going to have to give that song a solid listen. That’s really dark.
Jay in Oregon
@Jim C:
I had those lines pointed out to me a while back, and it’s hard to read it any other way.
OzoneR
@SiubhanDuinne:
As if a college football hero would ever face earthly justice.
Carl Nyberg
Rather than tearing down the statue of Paterno, there should be a monument erected to victims of child sexual abuse.
It should be placed in front of the Paterno statue. Forever shall Paterno be looking at this monument. Forever he will be linked with child sexual abuse.
brantl
@Jay in Oregon: Nope, boys, it means you don’t have to spend a lot of money to impress her, and that’s all it means. Good lord.