I don’t know how SCOTUS will rule on ACA later this week, but if SCOTUS strikes it down, the message will be “Obama should have sold it better to the public” (the idea being that this would have made it harder politically for SCOTUS to knock it down) or “the solicitor should have made a better case before SCOTUS” or, my very favorite, today from Charles Lane (no link) “yes, this is a Republican plan and everyone agreed it was constitutional a few years ago but it’s libruls’ fault for not seeing that Republicans had changed their mind and would strike it down” (I shit you not, this is what he wrote, in his usual smug, mocking tone).
This is how things work. A Democratic president has his legislation invalidated or get impeached or whatever, on flimsy legal grounds, and it’s his fault. How is it his fault? You can always find a reason. Lying about sex! Not selling his plan well enough! Cardigan sweaters! Malaise!
It just doesn’t fucking matter. It’s a big show trial, where they decide who’s guilty and then make up the charges.
Well, this crap won’t work forever. Where they like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury them. (Politically speaking, of course.)
shortstop
Maybe our grandchildren or great-grandchildren will bury them. Not us; the pendulum doesn’t swing that fast.
Cranky girl is cranky.
flukebucket
A great man once said, “the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice”. He is right. And there is a statue of him staring out over the tidal basin at Thomas Jefferson now that gave me goosebumps the first time I saw it.
TaMara (BHF)
I’d wait for an open thread to post this, but I’m afraid the day will get busy and I’ll forget. I know a bunch of people were asking for Daddy Cole’s cabbage roll recipe and I was entertaining out of town guests last week and didn’t have time to post it, but I do in fact have the recipe, courtesy of John. Here it is:
Cole Family Cabbage Rolls
I’ll try and repost in a more appropriate thread later in tonight. Enjoy.
TOP123
Hopefully you are more correct in your prediction than NK was…
Villago Delenda Est
Oh, I’m not so sure about that. It’s been working pretty well for 32 years now. The pendulum is supposed to swing, and right now, the 27% are working very, very hard to keep it from moving.
Haydnseek
It won’t work forever, but it will work for a very long time. We’re like a terminal drunk. We’re going to have to hit rock bottom before we wake up and realize that we must change or die. Don’t look for anything dramatic, the bread and circuses industry is too sophisticated. It will have to get very, very bad before we wake up, and by then it may be too late.
gene108
@Villago Delenda Est:
20 years ago, DADT was a compromise the Clinton Admin struck with Congress, when the generals balked at the idea of gays being allowed to serve in the military at all.
Now gays can serve in the military openly.
Interracial marriage is pretty common and accepted.
We’re moving to a more just society, it’s just we have some folks, who are determined to keep the inequities that they benefit from in place as long as possible.
Chris
@Haydnseek:
A terminal drunk? I was going to say… what’s the term for a woman who keeps going back to hr cheating, abusive boyfriend? Whatever that is.
Citizen_X
Literally works, too.
Keith
@TaMara (BHF): Thanks! I haven’t had stuffed cabbage in eons and developed a craving for it after Cole’s story of getting ditched by his family in exchange for rolls. Can’t say I endorse the use of boullion cubes, though (yeah, I know making stock is a pain, but c’mon!).
General Stuck
Yuppers. Like Jeff Goldblum said about life, it will find a way. You can say that about democracy as well, it marches on when all the gears are where they should be. And power flows from one man one vote.
Then the white wingnut will have to make a decision, to put on a show trial for democracy itself. To invalidate and impeach and remove from the national how to manual, the underpinning concept of equality under the law. Things will get really interesting then.
BGinCHI
I don’t know if the American people are getting the government they deserve, but I wish the MSM would get what they deserve.
Martin
@Citizen_X: Given the GOP base demographics, we’re more likely to hit the literal before the political.
Chris
@Haydnseek:
And, “it may be too late” worries me too. Specifically I worry that by the time people realize they’re being fucked, liberalism will have been beaten down for so long that the change will come in the form of some nationalist, fascistic backlash rather than any genuine improvement.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Even a 9-0 decision for Health Care Reform will cast as a major defeat for Obama. After all, infotainment got to keep those rating by pandering to their customer base.
celticdragonchick
I do think a reasonable case can be made that the Dems (once again) allowed Betsy Mccaughey and the wingnuts to completely define the issue and run with it. Most Americans repeatedly poll as supporting indidual parts of ACA. Most Americans also poll as having no fucking clue that what they like is, in fact, in the ACA. All they have heard is DEATHPANELSZOMG!!!
We let the GOP get away with that…again..
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Keith: My favorite meal is Chicken and Dumplings made from canned chicken, cream of chicken soup, water, milk, and canned biscuits that you cut up. Part of the reason I like it so much is that it tastes really good for the amount of effort that goes into it.
Tractarian
You don’t sound convinced, Doug.
M-pop
@TaMara (BHF): Thanks!
Dave
haha, least persuasive blog post conclusion ever. you should have just been like, “We will bury them. Literally. I mean it.”
shortstop
@TaMara (BHF): I need to work out a veg version of these. I adore cabbage rolls.
DougJ
@Dave:
I don’t want a Moore Award for something I don’t really mean. Yeah, I know it’s lame.
beltane
I was also raised to believe in the pendulum theory of history, but I’m 44 years old and all I’ve seen so far, with the exception of progress in the area of gay rights, is the pendulum swing to the right gaining more, not less, momentum.
OT, but this is why I love the Guardian. From their campaign liveblog:
(The above is supposed to be blockquoted in its entiretry.)
Southern Beale
I know I’m way behind the times here but I’m reading Krugman’s “Consceince of a Liberal” which I think came out in 2008, there’s a big chapter on healthcare — the politics, etc. I’m actually just now at that part, which is funny, timing wise. Krugman made a big case for it, really pushed it as the signature issue. I was surprised a bit. But basically the plan he favored, because it was politically possible to accomplish versus Medicare For All which was more economically viable, was basically the ACA.
It’s funny in hindsight to see Krugman being so right on so many issues (basically he warned you cannot buy off the insurance companies or pharmaceutical companies, no matter how many carrots you dangle in front of them, and he was 100% right). But also how much he severely miscalculated the politics.
Actually, he did somewhat anticipate the blow back — he said the while reason conservatives are fighting so hard is that if ACA is seen as viable, then it basically proves the whole notion that government can fix social problems. And that’s anathema to GOPers.
danimal
Not sure where to post this, but the arc of health care is bending slowly towards justice, too. IF the individual mandate is thrown out, the insurance companies have a problem (a big problem), but health care reform continues moving forward. The Beltway freakout in that case will be monumental if that happens, but progressives should simply celebrate that millions of people will be covered by health insurance.
I know I’m not alone when I write that I could care less if private, for-profit insurance companies lose money; they can be replaced more quickly if they aren’t profitable. The interests of uninsured Americans are not the same as the interests of insurance companies. We would be wise not to forget that on Thursday.
Maude
And we have Jimmy Carter out there grousing about Obama’s human rights record. Nice going Jimmy in an election year.
It doesn’t matter what Obama has done or not done. He’s worse than bush. He sold us out.
They are repetitive, second verse, same as the first.
Journalmalist
@gene108: These things are important to many people but they are barely window dressing if one is measuring how ‘just’ Merkin society is becoming. The fabulous advances in gay rights are overwhelmed by the dramatic disparities of wealth, which has a lot more to do with injustice than gayphobic policymakers.
flukebucket
@TaMara (BHF):
Thank you so very much. These will be tried at my house this weekend.
gogol's wife
Да, да, да, мы их закопаем! Вся власть рабочему народу!
Snarki, child of Loki
@Dave:
I think cremation is more appropriate in this case.
scav
@shortstop: If you want a jump start, there are a lot of Lenten versions of cabbage rolls out there for Ruthenian et al Christmas dinners. Barley and Mushrooms (some use rice) usually play a large role.
lacp
I don’t think the administration’s problem has been unwillingness or inability to sell HCA to the public; the problem started in how the law was created. The only way the administration was going to get anything passed was to let the various congresscritters paw at it for a while, so it sort of disappeared for a very long time into the bowels of the legislative branch.
That in turn made it a lot harder for the administration to take ownership and kept it from sending out consistent messaging throughout the process. That’s not the president’s or his aides’ fault – they had to stroke a lot of egos, which in turn meant they couldn’t control the process as closely as they probably would have liked.
Keith G
Among his many jobs, a president is also the “Marketer in Chief”. If significant numbers of citizens were confused about ACA, then by definition a good part of the blame stops at the White House.
Now, marketing may not have helped with the Supreme Court, but having even more citizens positively disposed toward ACA would be a momentous help with what comes next.
Tomasky at the Daily Beast writes about what he feels should come next.
celticdragonchick
@flukebucket:
That is a wonderful sounding quote, but I also think it is utterly false. The universe has no moral arc. The universe is utterly indifferent as to whether we live or die.
Where was the justice for the Rape of Nanking? Did the city of Carthage ever get justice? Rome flourished for centuries after Carthage was sacked. Did the thousands of women hauled off to be sex slaves by Vikings, Arabs or Dutch and English traders ever get justice? Did the Scots who were terrorized and raped after Culloden get justice? England still pretends the war crimes committed by the Duke of York never happened. Same for the Japanese who omit the atrocities at Nanking from every history book, not to mention refusing to compensate the tens of thousands of Korean, Chinese, Austrailian, Dutch and Indonesian women who were seized and used as “comfort women” in military brothels.
Where is the justice for Native Americans?
We paper over the blood stains and pretend the crimes never happened while we tell the survivors that things are all okay now.
That is not justice.
RP
I’m in the middle of The Better Angels of Our Nature by Steven Pinker, and that’s basically the message of the book. History has favored liberal and humanitarian trends. It’s easy to bitch and moan, but the reality is that we live in a much safer and, in many ways, fairer society than any of our ancestors, and that’s largely due to our ideological ancestors.
Kerry Reid
@Maude: Maybe the hundreds (possibly thousands — accounts vary) of pro-democracy South Koreans who were massacred at Kwangju while Carter looked the other way could say something about that. If they weren’t, you know, dead and all.
Zach
Keep telling yourself that. History is on the side of countries failing. We had a nice run.
Valdivia
Show-trial is the perfect way to describe it DougJ.
I know this is totally inside-political-philosophy analysis but I am beginning to think that Milosz thoughts on how people react in totalitarian societies (The Captive Mind) are becoming a perfect description of how the media villagers and the ‘moderate’ republicans are reacting to the reactionary totally nihilistic, repeal the 20th century insanity emanating from the wingnuts who took over the party. If I had the time I would write this up as The Captive Republican Mind.
TenguPhule
And forget waiting for them to die first.
the Conster
Truth has a way of asserting itself, especially now that there are so few gatekeepers of information left. That’s what wingnuts hate more than anything – open access to information – which is why they keep throwing sparkly things like Death Panels and Fast and Furious at the media because they know that the press corps is lazy, incurious and venal. Sooner or later though, after all other options are exhausted, we’ll do the right thing.
TaMara (BHF)
@shortstop: I would do rice and cheese combo – maybe a mix of good mozzarella, Parmesan, or cheddar and queso blanco – just a mix of something creamy and something a bit more substantial would probably work. Maybe even a bit of feta for a kick.
And of course substituting vegetable or mushroom broth for the beef.
EDIT: I love scav’s idea of using mushrooms – do a nice combo of the meatier ones would work great. I’d still add cheese, because, well, I like cheese. ;-D
Villago Delenda Est
@celticdragonchick:
However, it is probably the best we can expect from humans.
This country was founded on a set of ideals that were contraindicated from the very beginning by the political realities of the day, and are to this day.
shortstop
@scav: Good idea — thanks! Lentils (applied with a light touch) may also be a possibility.
@TaMara (BHF): Hmmm, I’m having a hard time picturing cabbage rolls with cheese. Might work if it’s feta, though. Thanks!
MattF
The right-wing strategy is always to hit at the strong point, even if it sounds absurd. Obama is weak in marketing? Well, come on. Does anyone here remember 2008?
RP
So you don’t think we’ve made any progress? You’d be just as happy living in 15th century europe, or the American west in the 19th century?
japa21
I love those people who say the administration didn’t sell the ACA sufficiently. Besides a bunch of Dems deciding to run away from any discussion of the law in 2010 (and see where that got us), the media did a horrible job. There was a Pew Research study that just came out that shows that the Republican talking points prevailed despite efforts to present the administrations views and there was mostly talk about the politics of the bill rather than what was actually in it.
Violet
@TaMara (BHF): Yay! Thanks! I just read the recipe and have a question. It says this:
How does this work? Are the cabbage rolls on top of each other with the sauerkraut in between, like a lasagna? Is it sauerkraut on the bottom and cabbage rolls on top? How does this layering work?
celticdragonchick
@RP:
Progress and justice are not at all the same thing. We have made progress, but do not pretend to claim that anything resembling justice has ever remotely been sought for the overwhelming majority of human victims, including the recent ones within living memory.
Also, there is no guarentee that liberal democracy is the final word in human governance. The famous quote is wishful thinking, and nothing more.
We have fought hard for every human rights gain, and the price in blood has been spectacularly high. In all liklihood (IMHO), the price will have to be paid repeatedly as history progresses.
General Stuck
@Keith G:
The only part of the ACA that is very unpopular, is the individual mandate. There really is no marketing that will work against the simple truth of that policy, which is forcing every one to pay for something, to then pay for something for other people who can’t afford it. Human nature is rarely going to allow for that to go down easy. I’m just surprised more people aren’t pissed about that.
The rest of the disconnect comes from the 80 percent who have on paper, decent health care insurance. It is equally dubious that they can be persuaded there even needs to be health care reform, at least until they get sick and have to use the insurance they have. The rest are gullible morons who believe about anything a white politician with a snappy flag lapel pin tells them, over some black dude called Hussein/
AS for Tomasky
Really?, the person that wrote this hasn’t been paying attention to recent rhetoric from Obama. My own take on what should happen, is that condescending dipshits like this guy, should be ignored, until there is actual evidence of his futuristic nattering to think otherwise.
Maude
@Kerry Reid:
Not something Cater brings up on tv.
He was also president before 9/11 and Bush. Big difference. He wasn’t stuck with Iraq, Afghanistan, the War on Terror and the almost 1929 crash of the economy.
Maude
@gogol’s wife:
Same to you.
TaMara (BHF)
@Violet: See here’s why we need John’s dad to actually do a video, right? Wouldn’t that be fun? I have no idea, maybe someone else who has made these before can help.
NonyNony
@celticdragonchick:
Also I think that the quote makes people think about the world complacently. If the arc of the moral universe is bent towards justice then it’s because people have worked their asses off to bend that goddamn arc. It didn’t happen by itself – people made it happen.
Violet
It sure seemed to me at the time that the Democrats were unprepared to for the anger and yelling by the teabaggers at the town hall meetings when they went home. That yelling by the teabaggers got the media’s attention and the Dems had an uphill battle to fight back. The Dems needed a better strategy for fighting that crap than they had.
Heliopause
May I ask why you think this? History has plenty of examples of prosperous, powerful societies going down the shitter.
Redshift
@celticdragonchick: It wasn’t an argument or a debate, unfortunately. Bullshit is very, very difficult to combat, and it’s made worse by a media that equates louder shouting with stronger support. A lot of people tried to put for reasoned arguments and facts, because it seems like that should work, but as Harry Frankfurt teaches us, it doesn’t, because they can make up BS faster than you can debunk it.
In my mind, while there’s no doubt that it could have been battled better (you can always do better), there’s considerable doubt if it could have been battled successfully.
As far as I know, no one has come up with a strategy for winning against people who have absolutely no regard for the truth. Steve Benen was reporting today about a statement by Jon Kyl in support of the meme du jour that Obama “did nothing” on immigration until election time, claiming that in 2007 he co-sponsored a comprehensive immigration bill and Obama voted against it. In reality, Obama voted for it and Kyl not only didn’t co-sponsor it, he filibustered it. If you can get anyone to pay attention, you can make a mockery of that sort of thing. If not, you drown in it.
geg6
Completely OT (well, maybe not so much), but I have once again fallen under Alex Pareene’s spell:
http://www.salon.com/2012/06/26/we_get_it_grandpa_youre_hip_to_springsteen/
Ever since this latest flap with both Christie and Brooks, the Boss must have spent much of the last few days just vomiting at the thought that these assholes think they are his fans. Neither of these idiots understands a word the guy wrote and have now spent the better part of a week whining about Bruce just doesn’t pay proper attention to them. How they don’t see that they are the villians in pretty much every song Bruce has written about the plight of Real Murkins is sad and infuriating. I bet neither of these idiots has ever listened to Nebraska.
gogol's wife
@Maude:
I just translated it back into the original Russian, with an “All power to the working people” thrown in.
elm
@RP: Progress is not inevitable. Humankind has improved its conditions in important ways; but only as the result of determined effort. A generation or two of neglect could erase centuries of progress.
Linda Featheringill
Hillary Clinton said some time ago that if Obama walked on water, the Right Wing would complain that he got his feet wet.
She’s probably right.
D0n Camillo
I hope so. I don’t want to live in a country ruled by people who cheer a man dying from lack of health insurance and jeer a serviceman because he is gay.
General Stuck
@Heliopause:
Yes, but none of those examples of prosperous, powerful societies had base-a-ball. It will save us, with an assist from mother’s apple pie. You can live on that shit, like forever.
Culture of Truth
good BJ tag
burnspbesq
@celticdragonchick:
“History is written by the victors” has a little corollary.
Justice is defined by the people handing it out.
Like it or not, that’s never going to change.
D0n Camillo
@Maude: The president whose administration recognized Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge as the legitimate government of Cambodia after Vietnam’s invasion can go fuck himself. Really hard.
Redshift
@Violet: Easy to say in hindsight, but up to that point, Republicans hadn’t whipped up mobs to threaten violence, so there was no way to know to prepare for it. (Yes, there were plenty of sporadic incidents, but major Republican figures, like McCain, generally tried to tamp them down because they were embarrassing.)
After a few months, Democrats actually did learn to deal with them. My congressman had a health care town hall in the summer, we packed it with an equal number of HCR supporters, and he did a really good job of keeping things under control and presenting the reality (even if the wingnuts refused to listen.) By that point, the damage was done, and a town hall that didn’t have a Democratic official running in fear wasn’t “news,” so the reality-based side didn’t get reported.
RP
That’s an extremely narrow reading of the word justice and the quote. The quote isn’t wrong because the victims of the rape of Nanking aren’t going to see the offenders punished.
Yes, I agree. Did you read my original post? And I think that determined effort is more effective and persuasive if its proponents focus on both the positive impact of their efforts and the negative consequences of a failure to act.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
OT: This diary by Markos about liberal billionaires not spending their money is worth the read.
Roger Moore
@danimal:
Yes, that leaves a very interesting situation. The insurance companies will know they’re in trouble and will start agitating for some kind of fix to avoid an adverse selection death spiral. But the politicians won’t want to eliminate the popular parts of the bill, i.e. just about everything else. They might be forced to do something positive to fix the problem permanently.
shortstop
@Violet: Yes, anyone remembering that long, hot August knows the administration and caucus were unprepared for the extent and violence of the screaming about death panels and government takeovers. The teabaggers grabbed the issue and framed it while Obama and the Dems were still catching their breath. I live in a +27 blue district and I could not believe how the ‘baggers took over even Jan Schakowsky’s townhalls. They were prepared.
Later, when things calmed down and Dems did a better job of ‘splaining, the media still didn’t report much of anything outside of Obamacare opponents’ statements — some facts, but still mostly panic and drama. The media is the media and it would have tried the same thing from the start — but its ability to do so was rendered effortless by the administration’s/Dems’ lack of preparedness. I do not think they will be caught with their pants down to that extent again.
burnspbesq
@burnspbesq:
ETA:
Or, as one of my favorite songwriters once put it,
“Everybody wants to see justice done … on somebody else.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEshzABOzHE
Violet
@Redshift:
If the Democrats don’t have moles inside the Republican apparatus, then they aren’t doing it right. My point was, there should have been someone, somewhere within the Dems whose job it is or was to monitor what the Kochs and Roves and money folks are doing and develop a response. The media is against the Dems, so the they need to stop that kind of attention-grabbing crap before it happens. Or at least have an effective way to fight back. But everyone seemed astonished and caught off guard by it. That shouldn’t have happened.
Haydnseek
@Chris: Precisely. When fascism comes to America, it will in the form of an overweight white person carrying a misspelled sign.
El Tiburon
Give me a fucking break. WATB alert.
Look, we know going into this how it is going to play out. Have you not been around for the last 30-40 years?
We know the rules of the game. We know they are severely slanted. So, if you know the rules and you know how it’s going to play out, then you have to plan accordingly.
Look, this Kobayashi Maru scenario plays out the same fucking way over and over and over again. And we Dems/Progs/Libs bitch and moan and cry and whine like a bunch of stuck pigs.
Did Captain Kirk cry and whine? No, he changed the motherfucking rules. He knew it was a no-win and he changed to a win. Fuck ’em and feed ’em fish heads, you dig?
Nope. Not us. While the Republicans are doing whatever the fuck they want when they want – rules be damned – we good little boys and girls sit there with our asses in the air praying to be spanked like little bitches.
So, is it Obama’s fault? Yes. Of course. He knew going in what he was up against and he did not sell it. Anyone remember those $500 checks back in the early 2000s from Bush? I do. Me and wife #1 were so excited we took a trip we couldn’t afford because we got SOME FREE MONEY! That’s how you sell this shit.
Obama should front loaded this ACA with the biggest and brightest trinket he could think of and shoved it down Congress’s throat and get it implemented on DAY ONE.
But hey, tomorrow we can bitch and moan some more about how unfair it all is. And then do nothing about it.
gene108
@Southern Beale:
Also, too why the fought so hard against Clinton.
Pres. Clinton was going to unveil “Big Government v. 2.0” that would be smaller, more efficient and still help you with your problems.
If President Clinton got to run victory laps for enacting his vision for America, it’d have blown the whole Reagan mantra of “government is the problem” out of the water.
P.S. In 1992, plenty more people, who lived through the New Deal/Great Depression or whose parents raised on how FDR saved their bacon were still alive and were solid Democratic votes and would be once again, if someone could just restore their faith in government working for them again.
Davis X. Machina
@General Stuck:
True in general — but Republicans reject — and it’s the only feature they do reject, besides the mandate — expansion of Medicaid to people earning less than $30,000.
Bastards, plain and simple.
Davis X. Machina
@El Tiburon:
Biggest, brightest trinket, for Congress….
I know — declare war on Iran!
shortstop
@Redshift: No experience with that kind of crazy mob, perhaps, but whatever form the pushback took, it was always going to be over-the-top and impassioned. With the amount of profits that were at stake, it was a given big insurance and pharma were going to fight tooth and nail. The messaging should have been in place even if our opposition’s MO was still unpredictable.
I say this knowing full well that even the best Democratic messaging gets ignored by the press in favor of childish tantrums. However, even in those cases when Dems did manage to capture the microphone, the salesmanship in those days was subpar.
Ruckus
@Snarki, child of Loki:
I think cremation is more appropriate in this case.
And safer for all the rest of us.
shortstop
@Davis X. Machina: Pretty hard to draw any other conclusion.
Keith G
@General Stuck: The quote you focus on is a bit accusatory, to say the least. Its purpose seems to be to put down a marker to Democrats that their fate is in their own hands (as well as in Obama’s hands). You are free to consider it condescending and maybe it is, but there is a bigger issue in the subtext. The larger message is that internally focused anger or name calling, etc. is very easy and very wrong.
Some on the “D” side have seemed loath to actually fight things out.
___
In sum, the Democrats should see an adverse decision as a chance to put the other guys—the Republicans in Congress, Romney, and the court’s ideological majority—on the defensive. It is what Republicans would do; they’d bay endlessly about an “out of control” court and all the rest. It’s one of the key psychological differences between conservatives and liberals. When conservatives suffer a political setback, they prowl the terrain like lions, looking for a few necks to bite. When liberals suffer one, they ball up like kittens and ask themselves, “Oh, gee, what did we do wrong?”
For accuracy’s sake, he might have written the last part as:
When liberals suffer one, they ball up like kittens and ask themselves, “Oh, gee, how can we win when the mean ol’ press won’t cut us a break?”
shortstop
@Ruckus: Exactly. Why would we want to waste silver bullets on zombie McCain followers? We got other stuff to spend our money and time on.
Culture of Truth
Nope. Not us. While the Republicans are doing whatever the fuck they want when they want – rules be damned – we good little boys and girls sit there with our asses in the air praying to be spanked like little bitches.
So, is it Obama’s fault? Yes.
What is who’s fault? I’m sorry, did I miss something? As of June 26, 2012, the ACA is the law of the land. Do you think the conservatives see that as a win, or a big loss? They got their asses handed to them and health care was the result. What did the GOP do? Whine and cry, send out the tea party, and complain to the Supreme Court. Has it been repealed? No it has not. Will it be struck down by an activist court? Maybe, but if it isn’t it will be around. Forever. That’s a win.
The Red Pen
@celticdragonchick:
Can you explain what justice for the Rape of Nanking (or other things you mention) would look like?
I think that’s a prerequisite for demanding to know where it is.
Haydnseek
@celticdragonchick: The very idea of a “moral universe” is utterly absurd. Morality requires sentience. The universe is not sentient. Horrible shit will continue to happen because we’re human, with everything that implies. Celticdragonchick nails it, using facts, logic and reason. What a concept!
General Stuck
@Davis X. Machina:
Right now, republicans reject Barack Obama. Everything else is moot. If he offered to set them up with a million bucks each, their rage could not be pierced enough to make it thru to the gray matter. What there is of that. Though there are some goopers along the margins, and true indies, as well as the most conservative, and most liberal of the dem party who are operational for hating on the ACA and mandate. For their own reasons.
gene108
@Heliopause:
Not many in modern times, from say the end of WW1 onwards.
Great Britain, France, Japan, Germany, etc. are still wealthy, well-to-do nations.
The European powers are no longer globe striding empires, but they are far from failures, in terms of what they can provide for their people.
Russia was never a prosperous nation, when compared to the rest of Europe and the same can be said for Spain.
Let me know of a nation that went from wealthy and prosperous to “in the shitter” over the last 100 years.
Frankensteinbeck
@General Stuck:
I’m not too worried about that one. Actual fascist takeovers require your violent zealots to be under 30, not over 65 and in power scooters.
@Southern Beale:
He’s an excellent economist. He’s no better a political analyst than anyone else, and it’s taken him a long time to understand that the result you really want is often impossible or utterly impractical. This can lead to a lot of facepalming among people who would otherwise be his fans.
@Heliopause:
Surprisingly few. We tend to get hung up on Rome falling, but most of the great empires that got destroyed were taken out by a government more advanced in every way. There are exceptions, Rome, Byzantium, and the takeover of China by Mao leaping to mind, but mostly humanity moves forward.
@celticdragonchick:
You are absolutely right that justice must be hard fought for, but take one look at the laws in the Old Testament, keeping in mind the Hebrews were considered shockingly liberal back then, and realize that justice has also moved slowly but steadily forward.
NonyNony
@danimal:
No. I refuse to believe that Roberts will let a decision come down that voids the mandate but leaves everything else in place. He is too much of a corporate tool to do that. Scalia, Thomas, Alito – I’m willing to believe that these guys would be willing to sacrifice the insurance industry to eviscerate a century’s worth of Commerce Clause jurisprudence, but I just don’t believe that Roberts will do that. Because leaving the rest of the bill in place and eliminating the mandate WILL destroy the health insurance industry in the US even quicker than its destroying itself through it’s own practices.
If it happens that way I’m prepared to eat crow, but I think it’s an all-or-nothing proposal to get Roberts on board. Either the whole thing goes as unconstitutional, or Roberts writes an opinion that upholds the whole thing on the narrowest possible grounds to try to create a little precedent as possible. I really don’t see the “dream” scenario of the mandate being thrown out but the rest of the law kept intact as happening – it would require Roberts to be a different sort of conservative than he’s shown himself to be so far.
Keith G
@Keith G: In my previous post, the paragraph that began and ended thusly:
In sum….. “Oh, gee, what did we do wrong?”
Was supposed to be blocked. FYWP.
General Stuck
@Keith G:
Some liberals do, and when the good cry is over, they get up and start attacking other liberals, instead of the wingnuts. We call them progressives on the internet. The ACA has not been ruled on yet, nor the mandate. And it is wholly premature to start chunking rocks at Obama on what he will do. It’s the same old right wing meme for the cowed black man, that I hate with the power of a thousand burning suns. And will say so, when it pops up.
Personally, I don’t think we need a better president. He needs better so called activist supporters. It can’t be all on one man. It is a team effort when the game is on. And these days, it’s always game on. People disagree on this or that policy decision, then say so, but never for a second forget who the real enemy is and keep the lions share of onus on the right wing.
El Tiburon
@Culture of Truth:
Let’s see: a conservative, Heritage Foundation idea that was embraced by the Republicans just a few years ago becomes the law of the land. And it was the Republicans whose ass was handed to them? Really?
Yeah, no shit. This. Is. What. They. Do. See my original comment.
While a majority of Americans like certain aspects of ACA, they don’t like the ACA. Why? Why is this? Oh right, the media and the Republicans are to blame. Again: we know this going in. We have to plan for this.
If it doesn’t transform into some kind of Universal heatlhcare, then it is not a win. If it transforms intself into New Boss, same as the old Boss, then not a win. Fact is the insurance companies are still in a position of great strength. There’s a lot of history yet to be determined.
dedc79
My bullshit meter goes off whenever any columnist talks about the unconstitutionality of the ACA without reference to a legal doctrine. Lane, for example, can only muster a reference to a “libertarian strain” in our constitution.
Pundits, especially those who don’t know anything about the law or the Constitution, just assume that the Constitution has something to say about every law that passes. It doesn’t. There is no prohibition on mandates in the Constitution. To strike this law down, the justices will have to invent one.
Chris
@Haydnseek:
I LOL’d. Then I cried.
Heliopause
@gene108:
Japan and Germany were virtually destroyed and rebuilt from the ground up. It’s swell they’re back now, but if you’re okay with the U.S. replicating the 20th century experiences of those two countries in the 21st, so long as it emerges reasonably well-off at the end, let me know.
Those are worst-case scenarios, of course. More likely would be the U.S. suffering a relative decline, as have France, the UK, and the former USSR.
Obviously I hope “our side” wins, as Doug seems sure of, but I don’t entertain mystical notions of its inevitability. So I repeat my question.
Liberty60
You had me at this:
We will bury them.
You lost me at this:
(Politically speaking, of course.)
ruemara
@Linda Featheringill: She forgot the left wing would complain that he was throwing fishes under the bus.
Keith G
@General Stuck:
I certainly have never advocated that a “better president” was needed. Obama is human. Humans make mistakes. Obama, as good as he is, could improve a bit.
The question of the behaviors of activists in any political party is always an interesting one. Human nature indicates that the most aggrieved are usually the most active. Those emotionally charged citizens usually are amazing unfocused on how to give voice and action to their frustrations. Often it is up to political leaders to harness those emotions and see that they become useful energy for the party.
Mike E
If only Jan Brewer sold AZ’s “papers please” law better, then SCOTUS would’ve understood its hidden brilliance and let it stand. I saw this point on my teevee
Mnemosyne
@Davis X. Machina:
Hey, it worked for LBJ. Sort of. In the short term.
Mnemosyne
@El Tiburon:
Uh, yeah. Because otherwise they wouldn’t be fighting tooth and nail to repeal it.
Though I do love the illogical logic of “PPACA was a total win for Republicans, which is why they hate it and want to get rid of it.”
You don’t seem to realize that the Heritage Foundation “plan” wasn’t a plan in the traditional sense of the word. It’s not something that the Heritage Foundation actually wanted to see implemented. It was like Nixon’s “plan” to fix healthcare, or his “secret plan” to end the war in Vietnam. It was meant to be something that would block any reform by torpedoing the Democrats’ plan.
As soon as the Democrats picked it up and ran with it, the Republicans did a 180 on their own plan and rejected it, because it was never meant to be implemented in the first place.
celticdragonchick
@The Red Pen:
Justice would at the very minimum entail acknowedgment that the crime happened and some form of recompense…neither of which occurred.
A handful of Japanese officers were tried and executed…one of who was a Lietenant who had been featured in Japanese Army newspaper engaging in a beheading contest that involved Chinese civilians. He had decapitated over 100 innocent men.
After the war, Japan studiously forgot EVERYTHING that happened in China, and politicians who bring up the subject are threatened with murder by right wing militarists.
China was happy to let the war crimes fade away as well.
So…except for the survivors, it was left as a mere footnote until Iris Chang wrote about it in a little book. Until she did so, I had no idea it was actually possible to be literally raped to death.
If justice means we bury the dead(between 30,000 and 100,000), try a handful of officers and then pretend the whole thing never even happened, then we need a new definition by my reckoning. All we have done is make it easier for similar events to keep happening (cough cough Bosnia)
Chris
@celticdragonchick:
It’s odd, because Germany has the “acknowledgment” and “remorse” stages down at least. Why doesn’t Japan?
Lurking Canadian
@NonyNony: Is there any possibility of the absolute worst case outcome, in which everything BUT the mandate is thrown out as unconstitutional, so it turns into a requirement that private citizens give money to health insurance companies in exchange for no improvements in service?
I mean, probably there’s no legal argument to make in favour of such a decision, but as I understand it, there’s no legal argument to make in favour of ANY negative decision, so why wouldn’t Roberts swing for the fences?
El Tiburon
@Mnemosyne:
This I know for sure about you: When Clinton said define the word “is” you were like, “Hell yeah, that’s what I’m talking about. How can anyone argue with that logic! Winning!”
You can literally fold yourself up like a little pretzel and insert yourself into a tiny straw with very little effort.
Andy Kaufman called and wants his routine back.
General Stuck
@Keith G:
The Emo of Some activists can be harnessed, others are in love only with the sounds of their own screaming into the ethers, as well as in love with the hamsher wheel of protest and disappointment, to feed their rage that likely has little to do with politics. A good politician recognizes this, and acts accordingly, and uses the emo crazy of these folks, as a foil to define his or her self as rejecting the extreme elements of their party. Obama has been very good at this, rope a doping the racially tinged scattershot raging from this sliver of the left. In fact, I think it is one of his greatest accomplishment. Done with a sly grin and very few finger prints.
Mnemosyne
@El Tiburon:
So tell us, if Republicans were all in favor of the Heritage Foundation plan, why didn’t Republicans introduce their competing plan in the House in 1993 when healthcare was being debated? Why didn’t it come up for a vote? Why didn’t Republicans vote in favor of it?
That’s the whole point. The Republicans opposed PPACA, even though it incorporated some of the various ideas from them, because they oppose healthcare reform. That’s why PPACA was a loss for them — any passage of any healthcare reform bill was a loss, even if it incorporated ideas they themselves had come up with.
Why you can’t comprehend something as basic as “Republicans don’t want healthcare reform even if it uses their ideas,” I’m not sure.
blogasita
We will bury them in time, and since I’m not THAT old, I hope to be around to see it God willing)…
However, the Dems did make a mistake in the ACA. They waited way too long for it to take effect. If it had gone into effect totally by 2012 and everyone had their insurance now, there’d be a fucking riot if SCOTUS took it away. Since only a small number of people have seen the benefits of the law so far, it’s easy too get rid of.
My guess, they ditch the mandate and keep the rest, but we’ll see.
celticdragonchick
@Chris:
I have been wondering the same thing. Some of it is that the death camps at Dachau and Aushwitz and Buchenwald were a hell of a lot better publisized then what happened to hundreds of thousands of Chinese peasants where there were not any cameras(including bio warfare experiments). Some of it is simple racism and ethnocentricity. We never really rubbed Japan’s face in what they did to China, Formosa and Korea, and they sure as hell are not going to go re-examine it for themselves.
Mnemosyne
@celticdragonchick:
I read about it in Amy Tan’s 1991 novel, The Kitchen God’s Wife, which was a best-seller about 5 years before Iris Chang’s nonfiction book, so it certainly was not completely forgotten.
There were other horrible things the Japanese did that I hadn’t heard about until relatively recently — like the fact that Unit 731 was doing human experimentation that was even worse than what the Nazis were up to — but the Rape of Nanking wasn’t really a secret.
Frankly, the reason the Japanese were basically permitted to deny it ever happened had more to do with the rise of Mao and the communist revolution in China that happened soon after the war than with any attempt to downplay it in the actual aftermath. The US and its allies made a lot of stupid decisions in the name of “anti-communism.”
You can argue that it was downplayed by the Allies after the war for the same craven political reasons that Nazi scientists who helped plan the Holocaust were hired by NASA and allowed to emigrate to the US, but I don’t think it was forgotten in the way you seem to be implying.
El Tiburon
@Mnemosyne:
Sure they do: Medicaid Part D. That was a form of healthcare reform. Of course I can’t wait to see the pretzel you are about to get jiggy with to explain how this was not a form of healthcare reform.
They want healthcare reform as long as it: makes people buy from big insurance companies and gets rid of Medicare. They want to reform the fuck out of healthcare. Pull head from rectum please.
It is you who has a comprehension problem.
Mnemosyne
@celticdragonchick:
Some of it, yes. A lot more is Cold War politics, where communism was bad, China was communist, therefore China was bad, Japan was good, and making Japan apologize to China would be giving in to the commies.
And I don’t think you mean to be doing this, but you seem to have implied a couple of times that the other countries in Asia (including China) have forgiven or forgotten. They sure as hell have not, but they don’t have the support of the US because, again, communism bad/capitalism good, therefore China bad/Japan good.
See also D0n Camillo’s comment at #65 about how the US decided to throw their support to Pol Pot because the eebil commies in Vietnam invaded to try and stop the Killing Fields.
Mnemosyne
@El Tiburon:
Oh, sweetie. Medicare Part D is your citation of a Republican attempt at reform? A program that was specifically designed to prevent the government from negotiating prices with drug companies was a well-meant reform of the system? Really?
I guess you also believed the Bush administration when they said they were invading Iraq to bring peace and freedom to the Iraqi people.
El Tiburon
Look, you can continue to be obstinate all you want and deny reality so you don’t have to admit you were wrong.
Are you telling me Republicans don’t want to reform healthcare? Maybe not in the same sense as progressives. And maybe what they call ‘reform’ we call ‘destroy’.
Whoa, nellie. From whence did you grab this garbage? Did I even slightly infer it was ‘well-meant’? Look: the Republicans instituted a program that reformed a certain aspect of our nation’s healthcare system. Hate it or love it, that’s not the issue. YOU SAID clearly that the Republicans don’t want to reform healthcare. I just pointed to a reform they did just a few years ago. I also said they want to reform it by privatizing it and making us pay more to insurance companies.
That is their version of reform. But I guess it depends on what the definition of “is” is, right?
nastybrutishntall
@celticdragonchick: how many times did you have to hide or censor your ordinary activities of daily living today for fear of being stoned, hung, or burned at the stake? That few? Really? Then yeah, shit’s different than it used to be.
Mnemosyne
@El Tiburon:
Dude, someone’s playing semantic games here, but it ain’t me.
Republicans have no interest in reforming our current system. Pointing to programs that are clearly designed to cause more problems in the system and claiming that they’re actually “reforms” is very Orwellian of you. “Reform” is not a synonym for “change.”
TG Chicago
I agree that We Will Bury Them when it comes to rich-people social issues: gay equality, women’s equality (including abortion rights), people of color equality (including immigration issues), dialing back the drug war, etc.
But I wonder about poor-people social issues (which quickly become entangled in economic/fiscal/financial issues). I know that demographic polling on rich-people social issues suggests that they’ll continue to swing our way as years go by. Does the polling go the same way when it comes to food stamps, welfare, unemployment, public education, progressive taxation, etc?
Mnemosyne
@TG Chicago:
People of color equality and dialing back the drug war are rich-people social issues?
Not only that, I think you missed Lee Atwater’s whole point when he talked about how talking about cutting food stamps and welfare is racially charged language. I’m not sure how you picture fixing the economic issues you brought up without also removing the racial connotations from the arguments against those programs.
mclaren
It worked for 1100 years during the Dark Ages. And that since that’s exactly where Shithole America is headed at warp speed…well, buckle up, buckaroo — it’s gonna be a long ride backwards into the past.