I don’t mean to discount the “Fast and Furious” investigation. I followed what happened in Waco in the ’90s and I don’t doubt the potential for abuse at the ATF or other federal law enforcement agencies.
But now much of the get-Holder stuff is just because Holder is black? The last big winger target was Van Jones. I seem to remember a few more minor things in the meantime where they went after some women who were white. Okay, and Barney Frank, but he’s gay.
It’s always about going after black people and, maybe to a lesser extent, women and gays, isn’t it?
I’m sure it’s all just a huge coincidence.
Upper West
Just saw Colbert’s take on Fast and Furious and Joe the Plumber. Hilarious. Jon Stewart, however, went all ACORN video on it, giving it credence.
Hill Dweller
Acorn, Shirley Sherrod, Van Jones, New Black Panther Party Case, Holder, Obama and his wife, Muslims, Mexicans…
Yutsano
@Hill Dweller: Throw in a sprinkling of anti-Semitism and homophobia and you have a wingnut buffet!
ruemara
I just don’t get why what has been done under Bush and was actually stopped by Holder with investigations under progress and convictions, is now a contemptible offense. Of course, holding Holder under contempt of Congress does what, exactly? No invite to the next Congressional/Staff Picnic? It’s toothless bullshit and the House GOP know it.
BGinCHI
From the Encyclopedia Brittanica, XVII Edition:
The white man, especially when aged and isolated, when cornered, emits a cry that demands retribution from the “other.” Any individual who differs from the mall-visiting, Applebees-eating, Bud Light-drinking heteronormative baseline must be destroyed at all costs. Even if the entire culture is ravaged in the offing.
waynski
It’s about power. To get it, they’d throw their own children in a basement with Jerry Sandusky. They are despicable people.
mai naem
I really hope that Obama and Holder are doing this because there is absolutely nothing, I mean, nothing there and they’re just teasing the Republicans long enough to have the story deflate,oh, right around mid-October. The cherry on top would be if Mukasey was shown to screw up on something. I know this is unlikely but it would be great.
Mnemosyne
As far as I can tell, Issa’s star witnesses are the very guys at the ATF who promoted the operation and fucked it up. But, hey, it’s not their fault that it failed, it’s all Holder’s fault for stopping it before it could succeed!
cynn
I think you’re trying to stir something up. Why might I get that impression, I wonder?
Joey Maloney
Didn’t the Senate hold up Obama’s appointment for head of the ATF for years? You don’t suppose not having your guy in charge of a sprawling bureaucracy with a history of cowboy tactics might have had something to do with F&F not being stopped dead the instant Obama took office?
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne: Fast and Furious cannot fail, it can only be failed.
David Koch
Peter King’s show trial of mooolsims in america.
nitpicker
Here’s the deal: Law enforcement folks often send bad stuff–money, drugs, etc.–out into the criminal underworld in order to make larger cases. Does anyone really think that, if Fast and the Furious (or any of the series of gunwalking operations begun in 2006) hadn’t happened the cartels wouldn’t have been able to kill Brian Terry with a different gun? Is the US the sole supplier of guns to Mexican cartels? Ridiculous.
jl
As I said in previous thread, I think fact that Issa promised the GOP brass that he would make the Clinton witch hunt look like a ice cream social, and Issa has produced nothing so far has more to do with it than anything else.
I think Issa is under more pressure than WH.
Whether there is anything really bad for WH to hide, I don’t know. But GOP has been fibbing about it, and dishonestly trying to hang the whole program around Obama and Dems, which is total BS.
I hope Issa handles this one as well as he has handled his other schemes in the past, including his alleged joy rides and gun waving. Maybe some kind of justice will catch up with that rich crum bum, crooked pol, and con artist.
Edit: I may have tipped my hand a bit, that I hate Issa like the plague. He is a subset of CA GOP Congressional delegation that makes a fetid sewer clogged with the bloated corpses of dead vermin seem like a sweet flowery spring meadow. A few of these dirtbags are in the slammer now or forced into retirement, and I hope more of them mess, blow their covers, and have to get out of town asap.
cat48
The NRA will not allow a permanent Director to be appointed to the ATF so all appointees fail b/c they’re filibustered if you find one. I don’t know if O selected one. He had a temporary director. It’s been years since a permanent director was appointed I read somewhere.
Hill Dweller
@ruemara: I know the wingers are crazy, and this vote isn’t surprising, but the timing seems weird to me. It feels almost desperate, and meant to distract.
They’re all about winning news cycles. Perhaps this is to change the subject from immigration? I don’t know, but it feels rushed.
Mnemosyne
@Joey Maloney:
The ATF does not have an actual director right now, only an acting director, so I think your surmise is correct.
I also can’t help but notice that the current acting director of the ATF shares something in common with Obama and Holder. Just sayin’.
Villago Delenda Est
Democrat, and black.
There are no other reasons NOT to go after Holder. He’s an usurper. Like his boss, the Sheriff.
It’s hilarious that a convicted felon is screaming about this.
Hill Dweller
@mai naem: There is an ongoing IG investigation(far more credible than Issa), which was requested by Holder. That fact tends to undermine the wingnuts’ claim the administration hiding something, which is why it wasn’t widely reported today.
Valdivia
@Hill Dweller:
have to agree here. Holder tried to come to understanding with Issa who wouldn’t agree. So there you have it. Immigration sounds right to me.
The good thing is that with all the decisions coming down from the Court this is going to get buried.
Mnemosyne
@Hill Dweller:
IMO, it’s to change the subject from voter suppression, which Holder has been threatening to sue the states over.
Issa has been investigating F&F for a while now with no results, so I think he’s getting desperate.
Chris
Well, I think it’s the Democrat thing first and foremost, but the fact that he’s black surely makes it a lot easier to swallow for a whole category of people.
waynski
@Mnemosyne: This. And if anyone doesn’t get what Mnemosyne says please see my previous post.
longtime lurk
No one with any sense doubts that Republicans are racists and assholes. That’s a given. The question I would hope progressives, liberals, and even Democrats would ask themselves is whether Holder and/or his direct subordinates had anything to do with covering up wrongdoing, shielding people who should be held accountable, etc. Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t, but what I get from the comments here is that it is completely out of bounds to even ask the question.
Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
I’m going to be generous to a fault and say that it’s about 90%.
@waynski:
And that’s about as good a way to define these turds as ever I’ve seen. Democrats should make this a slogan. Put it up on bumper stickers: “To get power, Mitt Rmoney would throw his own children in a basement with Jerry Sandusky.” It really defines them. And it’s short, and everybody will understand it. And what makes the point even more strongly is that a Republicans gets caught every few weeks in some kind of weird, sick or scary sex scandal.
Snarki, child of Loki
Issa has earned the contempt of all thinking Americans.
Joey Maloney
@longtime lurk:
If by “completely out of bounds” you mean “commenting approvingly over and over about the credible investigation being conducted by the IG”.
You, sir, are a super-genius!
David Koch
Obama hammers Mittens as a job killer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bVaw5cTjxmk
It’s working.
Mittens had to go on Fixxed News last night and desperately tried to defend shipping jobs overseas.
Spaghetti Lee
Funny thing: the WASP-y Secretary of Commerce, Bryson, got into a drunken hit and run or something a while back? I assumed I’d be hearing about that for weeks from the usual suspects but there hasn’t been much. If it had been, indeed, Holder or Barney Frank or Pelosi (or Mr. and Mrs. O themselves, god forbid) we’d be seeing new world records in bigoted jokes about the incident.
They just have a real hate-on for Holder for whatever reason (nudge nudge). The ones who aren’t themselves scared of the black thug with a gun sending out his dusky hordes are busy trying to exploit that fear.
jl
I have to admit that I will be interested to see whether Issa blows this and makes a damn fool of himself. Or more probably, how badly he blows it.
As I said, IMHO, Issa is one of the worst of the rotten part of the CA GOP Congressional delegation. A lot of these people are the most hackish thuggish political operatives you can imagine, elected out of safe districts gerrymandered for them in the previous crummy and corrupt CA redistricting. They have never had to do anything but show up to get elected.
The great Duke Cunningham of graft and bribery fame is one of this bunch doing time in the slammer, a just reward for his corrupt service to himself while pretending to serve the country.
A few of these lousy excuses for Congresspeople will lose in the next election, but not as many as hoped for.
Edit: And none of the CA GOP Congressional delegation is any good, so you can imagine how awful the worst of the rotten part of that bunch is, since all of it is bad.
MikeJ
@Snarki, child of Loki: That’s not enough madam, we need a majority.
mk3872
It’s more revenge against Holder from his time in the Clinton admin than racism.
Remember, the GOP was out to get Holder right from the start.
Do you remember the GOP’s grandstanding and disapproval of Holder at his confirmation hearings ??
ExurbanMom
No, no, no you guys, go watch what Rachel had to say tonight, she explains that this is all, at root, a wingnut conspiracy theory run amok:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/47898272#47898272
Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
@longtime lurk:
I don’t see anybody saying it’s something we can’t ask about. But, speaking only for myself, I’d say that, yes, there’s surely some likelihood that Holder or somebody he hired fucked up. I don’t think it’s too high a likelihood, but there’s no way to discount it altogether. I’d go on to say, though, that, when you look at the source of all these claims, whatever likelihood there is drops pretty damned fast. If Sherrod Brown or Al Franken or Henry Waxman had been asking about all this stuff, I don’t think people would wave it away. But since it’s a bunch of, in your words, “racists and assholes”, whose records on this kind of shit are open for all to see, that ought to tell us an awful lot about how much credence to give this shit.
@Spaghetti Lee:
In Bryson’s defense, I had heard that he had some kind of siezure, not that he was drunk. The whole thing was weird enough that I’d be more likely to believe he had a siezure than that he was drunk.
Hill Dweller
@longtime lurk: Again, there is an ongoing IG investigation into Fast and Furious, which Holder requested. That will be a far more objective and thorough investigation, because the IG can see all the related documents, whereas Congress can’t.
Moreover, this policy started under Dubya, but the wingnuts didn’t say a word.
longtime lurk
@Joey Maloney: I don’t know that there are a lot of people saying that, but ok. In any event, I’m sure the DOJ will do a bang up job investigating themselves, so Congress should just mind it’s own business, right? Hard to imagine that the people saying this would be saying the same thing if it were a (D) congressional committee investigating an (R) executive.
Yutsano
@longtime lurk: Beautiful move of the goalposts. No really. Quite masterful.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@waynski Says:
Fix’t.
@David Koch:
My wife heard Mittens fire off the ‘Obama doesn’t know when to send jobs overseas’ bit of brilliance.
She said it was jaw-droppingly tone deaf but it didn’t surprise her one bit.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@MikeJ: Thank you, President Stevenson.
Joey Maloney
@longtime lurk:
You’re right, and that’s because out here in reality-land, the Democrats do not have the same reputation for dishonesty, cronyism, and outright criminality that the Republicans have spent thirty long years earning for themselves. IOW, both sides don’t do it.
Even if there is some affirmative misbehavior on Holder’s part waiting to be discovered, are you actually saying you trust Daniel Issa to find it, evaluate it fairly, and take appropriate action?
Mnemosyne
@longtime lurk:
That’s what the Inspector General’s ongoing investigation is looking into. If you have evidence that the IG is screwing up that investigation or shielding people he shouldn’t, please present it.
As I said above, as far as I can tell, Issa’s main sources are the people who made F&F their pet project and are pissed off that they got fired when it went horribly wrong. That’s who Issa’s “whistleblowers” are — the guys who screwed it up in the first place.
So, no, I have to say I don’t find Issa’s investigation to be credible. At all.
Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
@longtime lurk:
I guess people wouldn’t be saying that if Democrats were investigating some Republican fuckup. But you have to look at the whole business overall. Take a look at what, on the whole, Democratic investigations into various & sundry misdeeds (by any party) have brought to light; then take a look at the highlights of Republican investigations into Democratic wongdoing (since they pretty much won’t police themselves). The records aren’t anything like each other. The sad truth is that nobody with any sense can look at how Republicans have handled investigations since 1995 (when they took over Congress for the first time in most of our lives) and think that there’s any reason to trust them about anything.
And, really, there’s a reason for that. Democratic investigations tend to bring ugly things to light because Democrats tend to see investigations as a way to keep government clean. It’s a last resort; Democrats don’t go digging into every corner just for fun, but they will when it look like somebody’s behaving badly. They want to keep government clean because Democrats, on the whole, tend to look at government as an important and legitimate part of our society.
Republicans (on the whole) don’t see government as legitimate at all. To them, the whole thing is bad, and there’s no reason to respect it, or to try to use it to further the common good, since the common good is best furthered by scrapping government altogether. When you see government as essentially illegitimate, and you serve in that same government, it’s hard to take your oversight responsibilities seriously. Why try to keep government working smoothly and cleanly when it’s a lost cause to begin with? Why not just use the power to investigate as a club to beat up your enemies with? That’s all it’s good for, after all.
That’s why nobody here thinks Issa’s going to find anything that the I.G. won’t, or that he’s doing this in good faith.
jonas
@longtime lurk: those are fair questions, and it would help if Issa was actually interested in looking into that. Problem is, Issa doesn’t give a rat’s ass about Fast and Furious. He promised his bosses that he would deliver Obama’s corrupt ass on a platter, so he turned what *should have been* a routine investigation into who fucked up this gun-running sting and how into a fishing expedition to find something to nail Holder and/or Obama with. For example, a real investigation would have started by questioning the Bush administration people who actually cooked the thing up, but Issa expressly disallowed that. When he didn’t find anything that led to Holder or Obama, he just started subpeoning stuff until he got to a point where the DOJ said wait, that’s going to be privileged, and then decided he was going to go balls to the wall to get that.
longtime lurk
@Joey Maloney: Issa is a clown, as I mentioned in the other thread. But he’s also a devious bastard, and if there’s something wrong, he’ll find it. The evaluation and appropriate action part of the equation is going to be left up to people other than him.
If he can find any relevant and incriminating facts, more power to him. If he can’t, then he’ll be wearing the clown shoes, and it will only hurt him and his party. Win-win, right?
Just a reminder that congress is given investigatory power and responsibility over the executive branch, even when the assholes are running it (congress, I mean). That’s for a reason, and it’s called balance of powers.
Mnemosyne
@Spaghetti Lee:
IIRC, it turned out that he has a seizure disorder. There’s still an issue with it (there’s some confusion about whether he was concealing the disorder, didn’t know he had it, or if it was being treated and he had some breakthrough seizures) but the story got a whole lot less sexy for the press once it turned out that there was a medical reason for it.
Chris
@longtime lurk:
I love how all of a sudden everyone finds it unfair and unreliable that an organization like the DOJ can investigate itself.
Organizations “investigate themselves” all the time. Internal Affairs departments that investigate other cops? They’re part of the police: that’s the police investigating itself. MPs, JAGs, agencies like CID, OSI and NCIS? Those are part of the military: whenever they’re called into action, that’s the military investigating or policing itself. The Office of the IG is simply the DOJ’s version of that. Does anyone ever bitch and whine that Internal Affairs or NCIS are inherently corrupt and untrustworthy? Even if there’s a case to be made for it, it’s the first I hear about it.
Most organizations come with built-in investigative services like that whose entire reason for being is to pursue cases like this. We let it happen all the fucking time, at all kinds of different levels with all kinds of different purposes, and there’s absolutely nothing controversial about it. Next.
Mnemosyne
@longtime lurk:
You do know that the DOJ Inspector General reports to Congress, right? I mean, you did look that up before spouting off about separation of powers and oversight?
longtime lurk
@jonas: Point taken. I generally agree with that, but I still think it is wrong for Holder and Obama to have invoked executive privilege in this case. Who knows what is or isn’t in those documents, but hiding them really looks fishy to me. But then again, in my view the government should, by default, be open and transparent. There was a time when Obama had the same view.
jl
@longtime lurk:
No one is complaining about the investigations. At least I am not.
People are complaining about an unjustified contempt citation when the DOJ is trying to work out a deal. In a committee run by a thuggish political hatchet man and scumbag and disgrace to the state of California, Darrell Issa.
Also fact that GOP is playing footsie with idiotic conspiracy plots that this is part of Obama plot to destroy the second amendment is not helping.
And, oh yeah, did I mention that Issa promised the GOP brass that he would make living hell for the Obama administration, and get the nation talking about nothing except that the Obama ran the most incompetenest and mostest corruptedest stinky poo administration ever in the galactic history of malfeasance? And Issa has nothing. So he needs some stunts, and he needs them now.
So. Issa contempt BS is BS. QED.
Edit: and, I think Issa’s investigation is trying to tie the whole program, which started under Bush II, on Obama and Holder. So, there is plenty of evidence that Issa is not running this honestly.
That said, I am not a big fan of Holder. But hatchet jobs are hatchet jobs. Problem is that GOP loves alot of the bad stuff Holder had done and said.
longtime lurk
@Chris: I agree that it happens all the time. But the best, most reliable investigations are undertaken by truly independent, adversarial investigators. Congress is supposed to take this role vis a vis the executive branch, though admittedly in practice there tend to be a lot of partisan witch hunts. That being said, the general principle still stands.
Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
@longtime lurk:
I think what worries people is that if he doesn’t find anything, he’ll try to make something up anyway. I’d expect him to take a bunch of utterly blameless people who did a bunch of utterly blameless things, and try to twist it all into something scandally. That’s the kind of guy he is. I don’t trust him.
If I thought he wanted to find out what happened, I wouldn’t worry; but I don’t think he wants to find out at all; I think he only wants to wound Obama any way he can, and this is what he’s taken hold of to do it. I know that’s what’s worrying me.
middlewest
@longtime lurk: The trolls here don’t even try.
jl
@Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.):
think what
worriespeople who know about Issa understand is that if he doesn’t find anything, he’lltry tomake something up anyway.there, fixed, you are welcome.
longtime lurk
@middlewest: You’re saying I’m a troll? Why, because I disagree with the general sentiment? Dude, I’m arguing a point here in good faith. If you’re not interested in the discussion, don’t read it.
Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
@middlewest:
Well, I’ve seen worse. This one, if he or she or whatever is a troll, isn’t half bad. There’s the whole, “Well, I just wonder whether there might be something there after all, and Obama and Holder, by fighting to keep the records sealed, make it look like they’re hiding something,” move, which, I have to say, our Lurker, if he/she/it really is a troll, is doing pretty smoothly. It’s a far sight better than the typical, “Obama hates freedom and wants to make us into U.S.S.R. Mark II, and liberals just want to put Sarah Palin into a GULAG!” shit we sometimes see here.
Oh, and, @jl:
Thanks. That works a lot better.
Mnemosyne
@Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.):
To be fair, the Republicans caught admitted longtime adulterer Bill Clinton committing adultery, so the tens of millions of taxpayer dollars and thousands of man-hours that went towards investigating Whitewater were completely worth it.
Mnemosyne
@longtime lurk:
Yes, see how well the independent, adversarial Kenneth Starr did at investigating Whitewater. He got the president impeached, so clearly it was all worthwhile.
Hill Dweller
@longtime lurk: One executive privilege claim doesn’t make the Obama administration adverse to transparency. I think they learned their lesson from Solyndra, where both the WH and DOE gave them hundreds of thousands of documents and made staff available for interviews, but Issa kept asking for more documents that had nothing to do with Solyndra. They’re still tilting at that windmill.
Besides, what exactly is Holder accused of? Knowing about Fast and Furious? If that is a crime, then Dubya’s AG’s are guilty, as well.
longtime lurk
@Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.):
I completely agree that he’s not to be trusted. I guess I have a bit of faith that the public will see through the kind of bullshit you’re talking about if in fact there’s no wrongdoing. Again, my view is that all the facts should be brought to light, and then let the chips fall where they may.
Mnemosyne
Last thing before bed: anyone who thinks Issa would not leak confidential information that could hamper ongoing criminal investigations as long as he thought it would gain him some leverage over Holder needs their head examined.
jl
Do we really need to review all the stunts of Darrell Issa?
Lemme see…
Rep. Darrell Issa Bars Minority Witness, a Woman, on Contraception
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/02/rep-darrell-issa-bars-minority-witness-a-woman-on-contraception-2
I am sure some one else can put up some more links of what this jackass has tried to pull off. His record of his stunts blowing up are one possible bright spot in all this mess.
Yes, I would like a through, energetic, adversarial, and also competent and honest investigation of these programs, under Bush II and Obama.
But see, a little problem, can’t happen as long as some crud like Issa is running it.
Edit I apologize to all who have followed Issa’s career for being so overly polite and delicate about this POS donkey.
Roger Moore
It’s all Obama’s fault for appointing them. If he had just appointed exclusively straight white dudes the way the Republicans want, they wouldn’t be forced to investigate the blacks, women, and gays.
Hill Dweller
@Mnemosyne: As I was saying in one of the earlier threads, the IG investigating Fast and Furious has opened a separate criminal investigation because sealed court documents were inadvertently given to congressional staffers, but they refused to give them back once the DOJ realized it.
Issa has already lied(and now been caught) about how he attained those documents.
Mnemosyne
@longtime lurk:
Really really last thing: it may not be coming across, but many of us here arguing against Issa’s investigation live in Southern California. We’ve seen the guy up close for a couple of decades. At this point, I have to assume that you do not live in So Cal, because you’re giving the guy way more credit for honesty than his history and previous actions warrant.
Spaghetti Lee
@Mnemosyne:
Ah. I apologize.
FlipYrWhig
@Hill Dweller: Also, if you’ll indulge me while I ride my hobbyhorse, we know for sure that the Obama administration cares A LOT about the relationship between the branches of the government. If the legislature is going to act like dillweeds, the executive is going to comply with their wishes the absolute minimum necessary.
As others have also pointed out, I think the overarching storyline here is that the Republicans want to make sure that any story about the DOJ looking into Republican voter harassment efforts looks like a tit for tat neener-neener, payback rather than anything of merit.
jl
@Roger Moore:
Damn, your logic is impeccable. Then…. it must be Obama’s fault for not appointing all straight white dudes, and come to think of it, who would also be Republicans for bipartisanship’s sake, who would do what they damn please in a bipartisan manner.
Then I am sure all the, very few, investigations would go very smoothly and be wrapped up quickly.
/snark, if needed for clarity
Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
@longtime lurk:
Well, yeah, but, as jl says in comment 61, the worry here is that Issa won’t let the chips fall as they may if “as they may” and “how Issa wants them to” aren’t the same. I don’t see any reason to believe Issa does anything in good faith. When somebody shows, over and over and over, that he’s an untrustworthy, lying bag of weasel turds, then I have to wonder about anybody who trusts him to do the right thing. As far as I can see, anything Issa says is a lie until proven otherwise; anything Issa undertakes is some kind of scam or dirty trick or cheap stunt until proven otherwise. Issa would say, no doubt, that this isn’t fair. Maybe you might, too. But Issa has nobody to blame for this but himself. Nobody else spent Issa’s political career lying and cheating all the time; he did that. Now people don’t trust him. Too bad for him. If he thinks that’s unfair, then, well, I guess it just makes him a typical Republican. They never think anything they do is their fault.
And now I’m off to bed. Adiós, compadres.
longtime lurk
I think we can all agree that Darrell Issa is a jackass. I never said otherwise.
Also, this is probably a good opportunity for me to admit that I’m no fan of Eric Holder for reasons I mentioned in the other thread. Somewhat off topic (and I’m officially done with the topic for the night anyway), but wouldn’t it be great if we could have a truly liberal AG who wouldn’t harass medical marijuana clinics, redefine “hostilities” so that the term doesn’t include warplanes dropping bombs on sovereign countries, dropping the ball on torture investigations, determining that “due process” doesn’t mean “judicial process”, etc. But apparently this is the best AG we’re likely to see in my lifetime, given that he was appointed by the extreeeeemely liberal Kenyan socialist. Heh.
In conclusion, bring on the meteor.
jl
Let us just hope that this stunt goes as well for the GOP as some of Issa’s hall of fame exploding cigars have.
FlipYrWhig
@longtime lurk: Has there ever been a “truly liberal” Attorney General? I’m not sure the ideology is compatible with the role. It’s like wishing for a truly liberal police chief.
The prophet Nostradumbass
I’m watching the Maddow show on this, and Jesus Christ, this whole thing is absolutely looney tunes. The whole conspiracy over this was invented by the clown who encouraged people to throw bricks through the windows of Democrats, the Sipley Street Irregulars, or something like that. I see that he’s in the hospital; I’m so disappointed.
Hill Dweller
@longtime lurk: Obama is constrained by there only being one Democratic administration since Carter; and Clinton wasn’t exactly FDR.
Even when Obama tried to nominate some of the more liberal members of the Clinton administration, like Dawn Johnsen, the Republicans block their confirmation.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Hill Dweller: Oh god, the Dawn Johnsen thing, yet another of the things the emo-left used to decide that Obama is actually History’s Greatest Monster.
longtime lurk
@FlipYrWhig: Point taken, but lawyers are a liberal bunch, relatively speaking. And I think I’ve heard of a few liberal police chiefs, though none come immediately to mind.
Actually though, a good example is Dallas County District Attorney Craig Watkins. Basically his entire purpose in office is exonerating wrongly convicted felons. He’s had quite a successful record.
But yeah, we’re not likely to see anything like that on a national level unless there’s some sort of apocalypse. And sorry for being a burr in the saddle, but Obama wouldn’t want to appoint a liberal AG even if there was a chance of him/her being confirmed.
Jebediah
If he wanted to to find the truth he wouldn’t have disallowed investigating Bushies.
roshan
It’s just about tainting the legacy of a democratic administration. Remember the Lewinsky scandal? That wasn’t done because there was a scandal there but done to harass the democrats and the president, and make the general public think that there was something wrong with the democratic party as a whole.
Does Obama sings any praises of Clinton and his economic legacy? Nope, he doesn’t. He does the opposite. He does it about Reagan. Everyone remembers the economic boom under Clinton but no one is ready to touch his legacy with a ten foot pole.
This is one way how the conservatives and republicans operate. They create so much noise that there is no need for substance. Everyone just wants to get over it and in this case everyone would just want Holder to resign so the country can get on with it. This is not done to make government efficient or anything. This is done to dent the democratic administration. These kinds of stuff will keep on going under a republican president but no one will pay attention.
Jebediah
@Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.):
And he started lying and cheating well before his political career began.
Jebediah
@Hill Dweller:
How the fuck does one get away with that?
Emerald
@jl:
You do not hate Issa more than I hate Issa. Issa is my very own congresscritter, representing me and all that.
We cannot get rid of him. He’s entrenched. The district is a bit less red than it used to be after redistricting, with the ocean area fairly bluish, but inland it’s scarlet.
Just recently he got funding to resurface little Vista Way, which I drive on all the time. Vista Way already is in really good shape. Mission Ave, a major road across town is falling to freaking pieces, but Issa has three businesses on Vista Way (one of them houses the local Hooters). So Vista Way got repairs that it didn’t even need, while Mission continues to crumble.
I hope, I just hope, that he goes way too far in this and winds up like Gingrich when he shut down the government because he didn’t like his seat on Air Force One.
I want to see the criminal bastard drowning in national humiliation, even worse than when he bankrolled the Gov. Davis recall, but didn’t get to be governor after all.
But we’ll never get him out of office.
Pandemoniac
@longtime lurk: So you agree Issa is a clown, Reds are racists and assholes, but you trust them to “uncover the truth.” What truth?
This is as close as you get to offering a reason for backing the contempt vote or for chafing at the ExecPriv claim.
I’ve asked you in previous threads and I’ll ask again: Do you know anything, anything, from the emails, congressional testimony, leaked wiretap summaries, leaked emails, anything that hints at the likelihood that anyone in DOJ knew about Gunwalking pre-1-2011 or tried to coverup anything?
All we get is this intellectually dishonest crap about “what if” “who know” and “maybe.” Where does all this uncertainty stem from. Anything? Still waiting
Hill Dweller
@Jebediah: If the report of a criminal investigation is accurate, I don’t think they will get away with it.
The best part is Issa lied about how he attained the documents. He claimed someone at DOJ was tired of Holder’s ‘stonewalling’, and leaked them to his committee. I’d love to see this whole thing blow up in his face.
Jebediah
@longtime lurk:
Just out of curiosity, do you believe that there is anything that shouldn’t be released? Details of ongoing investigations, for example? You said upthread “Who knows what is or isn’t in those documents” as if they just appeared out of thin air. But people at DOJ most certainly do know what’s in those documents. You keep straining your neck to look away from two facts: a) documents for which privilege is being asserted may contain such sensitive information and b) our modern GOP had no problem whatsoever outing a COVERT CIA AGENT for political gain. I might be the dumbest guy I know, but even I can connect those big fat dots.
Jebediah
@Hill Dweller:
You and me both. I do not care for this Issa fellow.
night, all
jl
@Hill Dweller:
” I’d love to see this whole thing blow up in his face. ”
If it is any comfort to you, Issa will be in there trying his best to make that happen, despite his own worst efforts.
Note: for those here not familiar with the CA GOP, that makes sense. Trust me.
Cacti
@Hill Dweller:
Inadvertently.
That’s cute.
Caz
Do you have any idea how pathetic you sound?? Holder is Attorney General, head of the DOJ, which is why he’s being questioned about fast and furious. Had Obama appointed a green person to that post, the committee would be questioning the green person.
Why do you liberals ALWAYS pull out the race card? No one buys this lame accusation except other idiot liberals. When a DOJ scandal breaks, the head of the DOJ is obviously going to be in the spotlight.
I mean, you must know how obviously pathetic, lame, and wrong the whole racist thing is on this issue concerning Holder. But you just can’t help yourselves, can you? It’s just too exciting to pull that race card out and throw it around whenever any black person is around anything the republicans oppose.
Really, really sad and pathetic. Why don’t you grow a set of balls and actually address the matter honestly instead of being such a wimp and whining about race all the time. I actually feel sorry for you if you believe the bullshit you’re peddling. And if you don’t believe it, then you’re a dishonest hack. Either way, thank god I’m not you!! Loser, lol.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Caz:
L O L.
I’m sorry you’re incapable of reading, but that’s your problem, not ours.
goblue72
Here’s the deal – this is one more reason to hate Republicans with a blinding white heat. I know I do. I’d willingly – even ecstatically – castrate a Republican given the chance. They are scum. And they deserve it. The only good Republican is one DOA.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Caz:
Did you say something? No? OK.
@goblue72:
The problem with that is that you need to find a Republican with balls before you can get to work.
Good luck with that!
LosGatosCA
I don’t think the disrespect that Janet Reno got from the TeaBaggers was because she was black, or a woman, or not as sexy as Madonna.
Republicans are simply the masters at the misdirectional, wedge issue, politics of personal destruction and propaganda against their enemies.
Holder is just the current victim of the vile machine. The root problem for Republicans is that they view EVERYBODY who does not agree with them 100% as a Satanic, existential threat to their sense of entitlement to cultural hegemony, including politic domination. They are a cult, not a party. Holder could be a Southern white evangelical and they would be trashing him with the same level of vehement hatred as say, Jimmy Carter.
They are about tribalism run amuck.
ruemara
@longtime lurk: YEeeeah. Whatever. You give way too much credence to Issa; for a modern political wonk, you have this odd belief that there’s purity to an independent prosecutor and you believe that the what fourth use of Executive Privilege (that’s in regard to an ongoing investigation, the real one, not Issa’s) is some sort of stain on the presidency and a sign that there may be there, there. You’re not exactly trolling, but you’re not exactly just a lurker asking in good faith.
Edited to reflect the nonsensical purity pony statement of “Obama wouldn’t appoint a real liberal anyway” is straight up neocon parading as a liberal, spraying some disappointment stink all over, tactic.
JoyfulA
@Chris: Even the smallest and most mundane organization has an auditor or an auditing department. That’s an organization snooping around itself and looking for anything possibly hinky.
Female on the Beach
I do think part of it is a pathetic attempt at retribution for Alberto Gonzales
After all those fucking hearings I sat through I’m so glad they have their one teeny fucking hair’s breadth scandal to clutch pearls over
Ron
What cracks me up about the whole thing is that there is this GOP conspiracy theory that F&F was actually a secret plot to take away American’s guns. Which, if you believe it, would mean that the Bush administration was conspiring to take away guns from citizens.
Mike Lamb
@Caz: Interesting that you picked another color other than white. And if what you are saying bore any semblance to reality (ie that a person of any color would be investigated) why aren’t they questioning Mukasey?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@longtime lurk: I know you keep trying to push this, but let’s look at a fact: Holder has an investigation going. As annoying as it can be to have the “Executive Privilege” thing come up – the first time for Obama – we do have separation of powers for a reason, because otherwise, people like Issa would be demanding everything ever written by the Obama administration every week so they could sit there and point at stuff and go “Gotcha!”
AA+ Bonds
Fast and Furious was a major fuck up and a telling example of how screwed we are with the war on drugs policy and with the abusive overreach of the AG since Reagan if not before
Now it is an excuse, as Holder patiently explained to Cummings and Cummings patiently explained to the press, to defend abusive overuse of executive privilege since Nixon if not before
That is pretty much what is up
It is about as anti-liberal as you can get
AA+ Bonds
PS if you think this is some sort of right-wing conspiracy theory I suggest, as usual, that you start reading the eXile
Certainly Fox has hammered this story but that doesn’t keep it from being a prime example of how this administration has continued the crazy ass drug war policies of its predecessors
rikyrah
he’s Black Black Blackedity Black Black Blackilicious Black.
he’s Black, don’t ya know
Rob in CT
It isn’t race. It’s the D after his name. At most, race is a very small cherry on top of the shit sundae. No, this is about tarring and feathering Democrats, and undermining public trust in government generally.
I’m still of the opinion that the proper course of action is to dump those hundred thousand (or whatever) documents on Issa. Here, asshole, have at it. And then be prepared to fight fire with fire. Does it suck? Well yes, but this is what Democrats need to be prepared to do. The GOP is committed here. You have to understand this. It’s been said before, but it bears repeating: they are playing a long game to delegitimize government in general (and Dems in particular), and they’ve been winning. It’s tempting to think you can avoid wrestling with the muddy pig. You cannot. They will do this every time a Dem is President. Know it, prepare for it, fight it.
GOP delenda est.
[edit: as to F&F generally, it sure does sound like a serious fuckup, which does not surprise me as it is a part of the multi-decade epic clusterfuck known as the War on Drugs. Which the Dems are too scared to try and end.]
AA+ Bonds
I mean Jesus Christ this policy involved international arms dealing as a means of drug interdiction
I would like to know everything Holder knows yes please and thank you
Mark B
Congressional investigations cannot be infinite fishing expeditions. Holder has been working with the Congress to give them documents related to the investigation without endangering ongoing work, but they aren’t interested in that. They want to look at every document they can get their hands on in order to try and find something that makes the Obama administration look bad so they can use it in the 2012 campaign.
If it were otherwise, they’d be taking their time and gathering evidence at a reasonable pace. The big rush is because they are working with a deadline. Gotta dig up the dirt in the next month or so, so they can package it for the campaign.
Mark B
@Rob in CT: Holder can’t dump all of the documents on Issa, because it would compromise ongoing investigations. You can’t sabotage law enforcement just to politically spite someone, despite whet the Republicans in Congress are trying to do.
Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
@Caz:
Now there’s a troll. You can always tell when they start in on “the race card”. Good work, Caz, top notch.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@AA+ Bonds: OK, AA, so you’re in charge of the DOJ and the ATF, and you are trying to do your job and get your own internal investigation completed. How much would you be willing to turn over to Issa?
Someguy
@FlipYrWhig:
Ramsey Clarke.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@AA+ Bonds:
…have you filed your FOIA request yet?
Mnemosyne
@longtime lurk:
Since that’s the case, I would caution you that teaming up with the right wing in order to take someone down that you hate for reasons coming from the left has a long history of going very, very wrong for the left.
If Holder is taken out, the lesson learned in Washington isn’t going to be that Holder overreached with the drug war. The lesson is going to be that Holder didn’t lock up enough people, and the next Republican who takes the office is going to be much, much, much worse.
Also, I realize that you’re one of those people who’s more worried about US actions overseas than whether or not your fellow citizens in the US are permitted to exercise their Constitutional right to vote, but that’s kind of a big fucking deal right now, especially in places like Florida. Getting rid of Holder means that hundreds of thousands of Americans will be denied their right to vote in less than 4 months. But, hey, at least Holder won’t be persecuting medical marijuana users, so who cares about unimportant things like voting rights?
gex
These moments when straight white guys really, truly realize how it really is are so much fun for me. And this was coming from one of the good ones.
Yes. It really is about SWCMs persecuting everyone else. They say it right to everyone’s face: things were better when women were property and blacks were segregated away. They even pine for child labor in an attempt to target the very same children whose “value” is used to demote the value of women and gays as human beings.
jayjaybear
@Snarki, child of Loki:
Yes, all twelve of us hate his ass…
AA+ Bonds
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God:
Whoa not a bad idea given the process on that fucker, thanks for the suggestion
AA+ Bonds
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Omnes Omnibus
@AA+ Bonds: Where exactly is the overuse of executive privilege by this administration?