The Parable Of The Fishes And The Loathes

Who would Jesus have the government mass murder?  A Kansas Baptist pastor believes he has the answer

The pastor of New Hope Baptist Church in Seneca, Kansas says President Barack Obama has gone too far in supporting same sex marriage and it’s time for the U.S. government to begin killing gay men and lesbians.

“Terrorists are dangerous, the economy is a real and present danger,” Pastor Curtis Knapp told his congregation on Sunday. “But there is simply nothing other than the holocaust of the unborn which imperils the safety of our country or places our people in jeopardy as does the leader of the Western world publicly raising his fist at the heavens and declaring that the bedrock institution of society, ordained of God and meant to be protected by the state, is little more than a convention of convenience with the children of Sodom to transform the meaning of something, which is precious to Jesus Christ, and a living picture of his love for the church into a legally protected justification for perversion and a vehicle of hatred aimed directly at that love.”

Knapp went on to read from Leviticus 20: “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death.”

They should be put to death,” Knapp declared. “‘Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start killing them, no?’ — I’m saying the government should. They won’t, but they should.”

Kill them all, let God sort them out.  We should totally put these guys in charge of the government and vote in hardcore Republican nutjobs like this so that they can make stuff like this happen.  What’s that, you say?  “Morally bankrupt and borderline psychotic”?

Well, sure, but he’s a Real American(tm) from the heartland, you know.  A real crazy American, that is.

Feeling better about that agnostic choice I made in college.  Your mileage may vary.  This guy’s mileage is all little skull symbols, apparently.

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198 replies
  1. 1
    redshirt says:

    Let’s read some more from the Holy Books of Leviticus. Something about threads and shellfish and working on Saturdays…

    Lots of people to kill!

  2. 2
    Spaghetti Lee says:

    Oh sure, these guys claim they’re all pro-free-market, but when it’s time to commit a little genocide they come running to Big Government! Hypocrites!

  3. 3
    Yutsano says:

    @redshirt: Ayup. I always do enjoy how they pick and choose which parts of Leviticus to follow and which parts they ignore. Not to mention that Jesus took all the old laws and nullified them since he had a new testament to give the Jewish people. Funny how all these learned Biblical scholars ignore that. But hey, gotta get your hate on somehow.

  4. 4
    Ash Can says:

    Perhaps the best possible outcome of this is that everyone who thinks like this guy will stay home on Election Day since they have no homicidal bigots to vote for (because presumably — hopefully? — even the teabaggers won’t go there).

  5. 5
  6. 6
    redshirt says:

    @Yutsano: I should memorize a few of the other sections condemning this and that to death, just to have ready should anyone bring it up regarding homosexuality.

    I’m sure they’ll immediately pivot to the “Jesus freed us from the Law” without a hint of dissonance.

  7. 7
    shortstop says:

    @Yutsano: Seen this?

  8. 8
    celticdragonchick says:

    The Final Solution for GLBT people like me.

    This is why I own an SKS/type 63 rifle and a tommy gun.

    I have no intention of letting these brownshirt idiots do anything to my family. When right wing wackos start talking about concentration camps and putting people to death, all you have to do is look at what happened to abortion doctors across the country to know that some of these people will really do it.

  9. 9
    gbear says:

    Alternate title: Loathsome Wishes.

    I, for one, would not prefer to see these guys totally put in charge, being, you know, expendable and all…

    Of course, it’s all about how much we hate them.

  10. 10
    Bulworth says:

    “They should be put to death,” Knapp declared. “‘Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start killing them, no?’ — I’m saying the government should. They won’t, but they should.”

    Is this the ‘less goverment’ I’m always hearing conservatives talk about?

  11. 11
    Nina says:

    Yeah, I have no respect for Leviticus-humpers unless they have applied ALL of Leviticus in their everyday lives.

    And then I shall wear my cotton-poly blends and eat shrimp scampi and demand equal treatment. Or extra napkins.

  12. 12
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    Fucking religious zealots. If there is a Hell I expect that every one of these fuckers will be there, manning the pitchforks to keep Hell warm for Satan.

    They have to worship something because they don’t believe in themselves.

  13. 13
    Bulworth says:

    The pastor of New Hope Baptist Church in Seneca, Kansas says President Barack Obama has gone too far in supporting same sex marriage and it’s time for the U.S. government to begin killing gay men and lesbians.

    I’m not sure there’s a more abused and ironic title in all the Western world than that of ‘New Hope” followed by some Xchian church’s name.

  14. 14
    Yutsano says:

    @Nina: One should ask the pastor if he had bacon or sausage or ham for breakfast that morning. Oh wait…

  15. 15
    gbear says:

    @redshirt: The pivot of choice is usually ‘Love the sinner, hate the sin” except for that they usually go on from there to tell you exactly how much and why they hate hate hate the sinner.

  16. 16
    jo6pac says:

    Why add to the milage by bring it to the site?

  17. 17
    JPL says:

    How many posts are we going to have about death camps.

  18. 18
    jibeaux says:

    @Spaghetti Lee: That was my thought exactly. It’s YOUR Bible. Why are you hiding behind government’s skirts to do it? Does it say “they shall surely be put to death after a fair trial and opportunity for appeal pursuant to statutes enacted by a duly elected democratic Republic?”

  19. 19
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    I’m of the opinion we should start killing Jeebofascist assholes like this guy, and let God sort it out.

  20. 20
    Sly says:

    “‘Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start killing them, no?’ — I’m saying the government should. They won’t, but they should.”

    All Nazis are cowards at heart.

  21. 21
    SatanicPanic says:

    Fascists

  22. 22
    gene108 says:

    I would like to remind all the conservative ladies that not too long ago women voters were viewed as an assault on “traditional family values”:

    Her argument in “Why Women Should Vote” that the suffrage would help, not hurt, the home was not unusual; plenty of other suffragists made the same case. But other suffragists made this, and other arguments, in a contentious way, directly attacking the antis’ claim that woman suffrage would destroy the home.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/w.....ddams.html

    I think we cannot truly reaffirm family values, until women can no longer vote – at least in Federal elections.

    I await the resignation from Congress of Michelle Bachmann, Virignia Foxx and other conservative female lawmakers in a show of solidarity for the traditional values America was founded on.

    Also, too I expect yappity-yappy women media types like Megyn Kelly, Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, etc. to shut their yaps and get back in the kitchen, because nothin’s done more to destroy the traditional family than uppity women thinking they could be independent without a man running things for them.

  23. 23
    elmo says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    My personal preference is shotgun/handgun, but I’m all about the freedom to make your own choices, baby.

    People mock, but they’ve never lived as an out lesbian in the backwoods of Tennessee. A car drives up and idles in the driveway at one in the morning, with two good ol’ boys staring at the house – yeah, I’m headed out with a shotgun in my hand.

    Sometimes I hate Christians worse than Illinois Nazis.

  24. 24
    danielx says:

    “Morally bankrupt and borderline psychotic”?

    Borderline psychotic? I’d say we’re way past the border and deep into the realm of teh crazy. Funny how these yahoos always go right to the Old Testament and skip right past the Sermon on the Mount and all that other New Testament nonsense about love and forgiveness. You’d almost think they have a fetish for sexism, slavery, revenge, violence, etc….

    Shorter: People like these believe they will be unable to enjoy the blessings of heaven unless they can hear the screams of those in hell.

    Fuck them. Because why? Because fuck them.

  25. 25
    merl says:

    A Kansas preacher advocating Sharia Law, I am not surprised.

  26. 26
    merl says:

    A Kansas preacher advocating Sharia Law, I am not surprised.

  27. 27
    merl says:

    A Kansas preacher advocating Sharia Law, I am not surprised.

  28. 28
    Heliopause says:

    Who would Jesus have the government mass murder?

    To the extent we can make a barely coherent narrative out of the Jesus character, he would have forgiven LGBTs and spared their lives, then gently rebuked their behavior. Of course, when modern day christians take exactly this line with LGBTs we consider them to be overbearing assholes, which is why we should probably leave Jesus entirely out of it.

  29. 29
    Phoenix_rising says:

    This guy’s mileage is all little skull symbols, apparently.

    That’s not mileage, that’s a jackpot…on the Slot Machine of CRRAAAAZY! We have a winner.

  30. 30
    celticdragonchick says:

    @elmo:

    People mock, but they’ve never lived as an out lesbian in the backwoods of Tennessee. A car drives up and idles in the driveway at one in the morning, with two good ol’ boys staring at the house – yeah, I’m headed out with a shotgun in my hand.

    Exactly.

  31. 31
    celticdragonchick says:

    @elmo:

    People mock, but they’ve never lived as an out lesbian in the backwoods of Tennessee. A car drives up and idles in the driveway at one in the morning, with two good ol’ boys staring at the house – yeah, I’m headed out with a shotgun in my hand.

    Exactly.

  32. 32
    Cargo says:

    Jesus’ love and smaller government in action.

  33. 33
    currants says:

    @flukebucket: Oh, for a photo of my new bumpersticker to post here…no, wait, doesn’t John Cole himself have one? Not permitting them to reproduce isn’t going to solve the problem–it’s STRAIGHT people making all those gay babies!

  34. 34
    Forum Transmitted Disease says:

    How I roll:

    Love ’em all, let Cupid sort ’em out.

  35. 35
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Ah, the site is having one of those moments where it picks someone’s post at random and decides it’s like New York New York or Duran Duran.

  36. 36
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    So speaking as a happily hetro sexual man Pastor Knapp, when we inevitably catch you in bed with another man since it’s pretty clear by now all homophobes are closet gays themselves, should we beat you to death too?

  37. 37
    The Dangerman says:

    The LGBT community should pack out this Dude’s Church; I’m sure he’s a “big man” when he’s not confronted with real people but would whither and die if faced with them. Of course, in the Bible, that which whithers and dies should be tossed in the fire, but that’s Step 2.

  38. 38
  39. 39
    mouse tolliver says:

    Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. — Ezekiel 18:13

    They want to kill the gays because the Bible tells them so? Fine. They can start after they get finished killing all the bankers.

    Collecting interest on a loan is an abomination worthy of death. The Bible uses the exact same language to condemn usurers that it does to comdemn gays.

    The. Exact. Same. Language.

    So where’s the big fundie-driven movement to ban Capital One?

    If we killed everyone the Bible says we should kill, there’d be no one left. The entire human race would have to wipe itself out in a mass murder-suicide.

  40. 40
    Snowwy says:

    I note the bigoted preacher has *just* enough awareness of what he’s saying to avoid claiming the responsibility to carry out his proposed pogrom for himself.

    “‘Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start killing them, no?’ — I’m saying the government should. They won’t, but they should.”

    Because modern democracies operate like monarchies, and are not in any wise influenced by the desires of the common folk. So were “the government” ever to bring his religion’s dictate to reality, he’d calmly sit back and say “see? it’s the government, not me. I am not responsible.”

  41. 41
    Peregrinus says:

    Random note, because I almost did a double-take: “New Hope Village Church” is the name of the church that the Left Behind series centers on. Though that one is based off of (well, prior to Knapp opening his homophobic mouth) even more obscure and out-of-the-mainstream theological beliefs.

    Just sayin’.

  42. 42
    celticdragonchick says:

    @currants:

    Actually, the hard core GLBT haters insist that gay people recruit more gay people be raping little kids and turning them gay…ergo the notion that killing all GLBT people or putting them in the death camps will mean that they simply cease to exist since they would be unable to “reproduce” by raping children.

    I cannot say how often I have run into this vile meme on rightwing websites.

  43. 43
    NR says:

    I’m voting Obama because I think the government should only be killing brown people on a different continent.

  44. 44
    Forum Transmitted Disease says:

    This is why I own an SKS/type 63 rifle and a tommy gun.

    @celticdragonchick: Be careful, the tut-tutters and high-roaders here will be all over your ass for even hinting that one should play hardball with people who literally want you to die.

  45. 45
    "Fair and Balanced" Dave says:

    So a radical cleric is calling for the state-sponsored slaughter of US citizens? If this guy was a Muslim, he’d be declared a terrorist and there’d be an armed drone targeting house.

  46. 46
    Violet says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    since it’s pretty clear by now all homophobes are closet gays themselves,

    This really is the issue. You’d think these kinds of people would have figured it out by now. Screaming about gays and lesbians is like wearing a neon flashing sign that says, “I’m a self-hating closeted gay man”.

  47. 47
    redshirt says:

    @mouse tolliver: Rev Lovejoy: “Have you actually read this thing? Technically, we’re not allowed to go to the bathroom.”

  48. 48
    Yutsano says:

    @NR: Uhh…what? What does Obama have to do with a lunatic preacher getting his hate on?

  49. 49
    Xecky Gilchrist says:

    @Spaghetti Lee: It really is terrible to see the horrific moral position taken by this so-called man of the cloth.

    He should be advocating that people pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and murder enemies of the Lord themselves, not become dependent and lazy.

  50. 50
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Forum Transmitted Disease:

    I think that most folks here understand that you can’t compromise with nazis and that you cannot depend on the police to protect you from them. We have certainly seen what happens to abortion doctors when they get targeted.

    The volume is turned up real fucking high right now, and I do expect more Matthew Shappard type incidents. I do not intend to be one of the statistics, personally.

  51. 51
    Mark S. says:

    which is precious to Jesus Christ

    Marriage was so precious to Jesus that he remained single all his life and encouraged his disciples to abandon their families.

  52. 52
    gbear says:

    since it’s pretty clear by now all homophobes are closet gays themselves,

    Just NO. It’s not all self-hatred. Straight people are fully capable of hating GLBT people all on their lonesomes, without any repressed same-sex feelings. Quit thinking that all the homophobes are homo. It’s a lie.

  53. 53
    Chris says:

    @Yutsano:

    Ayup. I always do enjoy how they pick and choose which parts of Leviticus to follow and which parts they ignore. Not to mention that Jesus took all the old laws and nullified them since he had a new testament to give the Jewish people. Funny how all these learned Biblical scholars ignore that. But hey, gotta get your hate on somehow.

    Yeah, I love that. I hear Christian religious nuts telling me all the time that Jesus brought a “new covenant” so the laws about shellfish and shit didn’t apply anymore, but somehow the laws about homosexuality and premarital sex still applied. What algorithm do they use to calculate which laws still apply, and which got thrown out? I have yet to get a halfway coherent answer from any fundie or Catholic when it comes to that.

  54. 54
    PaulW says:

    I don’t blame Knapp: I blame his parishioners who keep showing up to support his BS.

    Also wik:

    Leviticus 20:10 “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”

    So I’m thinking we need to put Adulterers to death, if we hold one part of Leviticus true we must hold ALL parts of Leviticus true.

    Now, how many adulterers do we have? Oh, right, at any given time that’s roughly 25 percent of the American population give or take a few congressmen. Married population of the United States is roughly 58 MILLION people. 25 percent (or 1/4th) of that is 16.5 MILLION adulterers we need to put to death, if we hold true to Leviticus.

    Gay/Lesbian population in the U.S. is roughly 4 million. Now you see why preachers go after gays instead of adulterers: there are more adulterers than gay people.

  55. 55
    Waldo says:

    Wait — death panels are OK now? I can’t keep up.

  56. 56
    Chris says:

    @elmo:

    Sometimes I hate Christians worse than Illinois Nazis.

    Not all Christians, but I get where you’re coming from. Illinois Nazis don’t own half the politicians in the country. Fundies do.

  57. 57
    geg6 says:

    Between this asshole and the criminal conspiracy headquartered in Vatican City, I’ve never been so proud and happy to have rejected all the crap daddy fantasies they so fervently want to push on the rest of us.

    I’m a loud and proud atheist. And getting louder and prouder by the day.

  58. 58
    Egg Berry says:

    You can find this kind of eliminationist fundamentalist crap being preached along most backroads across this great nation probably about every Sunday. Except most of those churches don’t know how to use the Intertubes, much less put up one o’ them fancy Webusites.

  59. 59
    redshirt says:

    @Mark S.: A long haired, unmarried guy who hung out almost exclusively with other guys?

    Sounds like a Savior!

  60. 60
    chopper says:

    ironic that the pastor from New Hope church would propose policies similar to palpatine. Nerd alert!

  61. 61
    longtime lurk says:

    Umm, this is the dumbest kind of nutpicking. Yeah, dude, there are all kinds of bigots out there in this great big country, and lots of them are “religious”. Not exactly breaking news. Seneca, Kansas has a population of less than 2,000 people. Judging by the picture I found online, this preacher’s congregation is probably less than 100, even on Easter Sunday.

    You might as well be ranting about comments you found on a post by Pam Gellar. Geez. Slow news day, eh?

  62. 62
    Forum Transmitted Disease says:

    I think that most folks here understand that you can’t compromise with nazis and that you cannot depend on the police to protect you from them.

    @celticdragonchick: Read the comments. They have no clue.

    Everything else you wrote is dead-on correct. But not that. This commentariat is willfully blind to what these people are really all about, and they do not want to take the necessary steps to fight them either politically or otherwise.

  63. 63
    Jeff Spender says:

    @longtime lurk:

    Verily, I say unto thee, thou art not knowing of all internet traditions.

  64. 64
    tulip says:

    @shortstop:

    Pick and choose mofo.

    God’s love, get some bitches.

  65. 65
    Ruckus says:

    @geg6:
    Agreed.
    I figured it was all crap long ago but at that time I wasn’t to worried that the stupid would get worse.
    Was I ever WRONG, again. I have taken to always following my second thought, never my first impulse. Life is safer that way.

  66. 66
    Rosalita says:

    @elmo:

    People mock, but they’ve never lived as an out lesbian in the backwoods of Tennessee. A car drives up and idles in the driveway at one in the morning, with two good ol’ boys staring at the house – yeah, I’m headed out with a shotgun in my hand.

    yeah, whenever I hear about anti-gun laws I just used to imagine what if Darth Cheney was coming up my sidewalk… when the devil comes to down you have to be ready.

  67. 67
    Brachiator says:

    @Yutsano:

    Ayup. I always do enjoy how they pick and choose which parts of Leviticus to follow and which parts they ignore. Not to mention that Jesus took all the old laws and nullified them since he had a new testament to give the Jewish people. Funny how all these learned Biblical scholars ignore that. But hey, gotta get your hate on somehow.

    It’s time to dig out the West Wing quote.President Bartlett:

    “I’m interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She’s a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?”
    __
    “My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?”
    __
    “Here’s one that’s really important cause we’ve got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?
    __
    “Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?
    __
    “Think about those questions, would you?”

    Here endeth the lesson.

  68. 68
    rea says:

    And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.

    And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father’s house.

    Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.

    And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.

  69. 69
    Jeff Spender says:

    I’d like to think I’m a peaceful man. But if any of these psychopaths ever laid a finger on anyone I care about they wouldn’t have to wait for judgment day.

  70. 70
    Marcellus Shale, Public Dick says:

    @Mark S.:

    jesus would have made excellent middle management material at goldman sachs.

  71. 71
    Rosalita says:

    @Brachiator: Beautimous!

  72. 72
    elmo says:

    @Rosalita:

    Darth Cheney? Were you under the impression that I was describing a hypothetical situation? I wasn’t. The two men were real. The car was real. The shotgun in my hand was very, very real, and very, very loaded, and I was very, very glad when the two men decided to drive away and not come back.

  73. 73
    Felinious Wench says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    This is why I own an SKS/type 63 rifle and a tommy gun.

    The lesbian couple that lives next to us is heavily-armed. When we go out of town, they watch our house. We don’t own guns. Hope some asshole isn’t dumb enough to try and break in when they’re on guard duty for us.

  74. 74
    Darkrose says:

    @Yutsano:

    @redshirt: Ayup. I always do enjoy how they pick and choose which parts of Leviticus to follow and which parts they ignore. Not to mention that Jesus took all the old laws and nullified them since he had a new testament to give the Jewish people. Funny how all these learned Biblical scholars ignore that. But hey, gotta get your hate on somehow.

    Slacktivist has had an interesting series of posts on this, and the contortions you have to go through to argue that when Acts describes Peter’s vision and God telling him “nothing I have created is profane”, that only applies to the dietary law. Everything else, apparently is still in effect.

  75. 75
    Mark S. says:

    @Marcellus Shale, Public Dick:

    Wasn’t there a parable of Jesus turning toxic mortgages into AAA-grade securities?

  76. 76
    Comrade Colette Collaboratrice says:

    @Forum Transmitted Disease:

    Be careful, the tut-tutters and high-roaders here will be all over your ass for even hinting that one should play hardball with people who literally want you to die.

    Oh, nonsense. I can tut and high-road with the best of them, but I still believe everyone has the right to self-defense, and I don’t see anyone else here arguing otherwise.

    On the other hand, this:

    Love ‘em all, let Cupid sort ‘em out.

    is a thing of beauty. From your lips to the FSM’s ears.

  77. 77
    Chet says:

    @gene108:

    I would like to remind all the conservative ladies that not to long ago women voters were viewed as an assault on “traditional family values”

    What do you mean, “were”?

  78. 78
    redshirt says:

    @rea: He gave him his girdle? Now that’s a “friend” indeed!

  79. 79
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    @Spaghetti Lee:

    Oh sure, these guys claim they’re all pro-free-market, but when it’s time to commit a little genocide they come running to Big Government! Hypocrites!

    WIN

  80. 80
    scav says:

    Beyond the Usury and the Shellfish, don’t forget at the Neo-Testament Moral Buffet one of the current favorites is the Major Hissy Fit Combo over (not) rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesars because the Neo-Testament GI Free-Market Killing-Campguard Jaysus is all about not paying taxes and not obeying laws if you don’t fucking feel like it.

  81. 81
    EIGRP says:

    I still think there’s a couple ways to read that Leviticus passage:

    If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman

    1 – You must first have anal sex with a woman and then have anal sex with a man

    or

    2 – The man must have a vagina.

    Maybe this is why I’m not a theologian.

    Eric

  82. 82
    gelfling545 says:

    I’m a bit concerned about a family member who will be moving to Indianapolis for his job. He is a very “out” (meaning he was never “in”) gay man which is fine here in NY but I am really concerned about the prospects in the midwest. Does anybody know about the attitudes/degree of danger there?

  83. 83
    TK421 says:

    Wow, I just can’t imagine what it would be like to have a government that went around killing innocent people!

    White House counterterrorism adviser John Brennan on Monday spoke openly about the use of remotely piloted drones to kill suspected terrorists. In doing so, he became the first U.S. government official to acknowledge that the drone strikes sometimes kill innocent people, though he characterized such deaths as “exceedingly rare.” But a new analysis by an independent Washington think tank estimates that more than 300 civilians have been killed by drones since President Barack Obama took office.

    http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.c.....-rare?lite

  84. 84
    JupiterGee says:

    As a resident of The Sovereign Republic of Brownbackistan Kansas, I gotta say: really sorry about that. We’re trying to deal, but there’s sooooooo many of them.

  85. 85
    Chet says:

    @Mark S.: Paul’s “It is better to marry than to burn” never struck me as exactly a ringing endorsement, either.

  86. 86
    Linda Featheringill says:

    I’ve seen more news articles lately about people proposing to kill those they disagree with. I hope this isn’t on the rise. But then, I hope for a lot of things.

    You need to be able to defend yourself. And perhaps you should be slow to use force to defend yourself.

    If indeed this type of kill-them-they-are-different-from-me nonsense is increasing, all of us have a problem. No one is safe.

  87. 87
    TK422 says:

    HEY! HEY! Pay attention to meeee!

  88. 88
    Ash Can says:

    I thought FYWP had spambot filters.

  89. 89
    scav says:

    @EIGRP: Isn’t there also a temporal use of the whole “as” thing? Maybe it’s just a rule against mixed threesomes, whereas homo threesomes are good to go.

  90. 90
    slippy says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    So speaking as a happily hetro sexual man Pastor Knapp, when we inevitably catch you in bed with another man since it’s pretty clear by now all homophobes are closet gays themselves, should we beat you to death too?

    This. I will help.

    I have occasion to drive through Kansas from time to time. Maybe I’ll stop in and take a shit on this guy’s altar next time I do. I can’t think of anything more constructive to do to putative mass-murdering fascists.

  91. 91

    @celticdragonchick:

    This is why I own an SKS/type 63 rifle and a tommy gun.

    That’ll freak em out.

    My lame version of a bumper sticker:
    When liberals ban guns, only conservatives will carry them.

  92. 92
    Snowwy says:

    @Linda Featheringill:

    If indeed this type of kill-them-they-are-different-from-me nonsense is increasing, all of us have a problem. No one is safe.

    FTFY, regretfully.

  93. 93
    West of the Cascades says:

    @PaulW:

    So I’m thinking we need to put Adulterers to death

    So how many seats in the US Congress would require immediate special elections?

  94. 94
    slippy says:

    @gelfling545: I live in southern Indiana. Indy is a pretty progressive city. I work in Louisville, and inside the city (and ONLY here in the civilized part) it’s no big deal and plenty of people are openly out. Even though my co-workers disperse to the buck-toothed hinterlands at the end of the day, most of them are very accepting of our LGBT co-workers. My son came out to me last year, so this issue has become far more present to me than it ever has been. I feel pretty safe with him living here. He would fit right in in Indy.

  95. 95
    slippy says:

    @gelfling545: I live in southern Indiana. Indy is a pretty progressive city. I work in Louisville, and inside the city (and ONLY here in the civilized part) it’s no big deal and plenty of people are openly out. Even though my co-workers disperse to the buck-toothed hinterlands at the end of the day, most of them are very accepting of our LGBT co-workers. My son came out to me last year, so this issue has become far more present to me than it ever has been. I feel pretty safe with him living here. He would fit right in in Indy.

  96. 96

    @elmo:

    Sometimes I hate Christians worse than Illinois Nazis.

    There’s a difference?

  97. 97
    Walker says:

    The problem with these lets-rub-Leviticus in their faces arguments is the book of Acts. Acts specifically wrangles with this problem, particularly after the dream with Peter and the locusts. In this book, and the later letters, they explicitly mention “sexual immorality” as something still considered a sin.

    However, that is as much detail as we get. There is a lot of disagreement – based on the historical context of the church at that time – about what that means. But the fundamentalists have taken this as a pass to fall back to Old Testament for guidance on sexual morality.

  98. 98
    Cato says:

    @slippy:

    Wow, me too.

    I agree, the People’s Republic of Louisville is very leftist. Yet also, ironically, one of the most economically and racially segregated cities I’ve seen anywhere in the country.

  99. 99
    Cato says:

    And Indiana is Republican or centrist Democrat. How it voted for Obambi in ’08 I still don’t understand, and don’t quite accept it.

  100. 100

    You can tell them by their fruits.

    Jesus hung out with sinners. He spent time with them, eating, drinking, teaching and ministering to their needs to show them the love of God. He blessed when cursed. He forgave when nailed to a cross. He called outcasts to follow Him, who then went out and followed his example.

    It was the religious and ‘pious’ men of the day whom he called white-washed tombstones who demanded strict unmerciful adherence not just to the law of Moses, but to the centuries of tradition that followed. They were the ones who condemned Christ for spending time with sinners. Dragged a sinner before him demanding her execution. Made a mockery of God’s house, and mocked and condemned God’s Son because He tried to show them the true path.

    I’ll let you decide which camp this man belongs to.

    So where’s the big fundie-driven movement to ban Capital One?

    I’d be okay with ending compound interest. But I skew liberal, and have slid away from fundamentalism towards the Orthodox church in recent years.

  101. 101
    Chet says:

    From Maryland, a Pastor Leatherman (yes, that’s the guy’s name) acknowledges that “my flesh kind of likes” the idea of killing gays.

  102. 102
    celticdragonchick says:

    @gelfling545:

    Indianapolis is not particularly GLBT friendly. Under no circumstances should GLBT people use the bus system in Indianapolis. It is a good way to see what “gay bashing” can look like in person.

    Yes, I lived and worked there for half a year.

    No, I do not suggest that any other GLBT person try it.

    Sure, most people are not going to bother you…but it is the only city where I twice had to flee in public areas for fear of my life, and it is the only place where (as a transgendered woman wearing a professional skirt suit) I have been repeatedly sexually harrassed in public and propositioned as a prostitute.

  103. 103
    Cato says:

    So where’s the big fundie-driven movement to ban Capital One?

    I want to ban them just for their commercials.

  104. 104
    EIGRP says:

    @scav: Good one. I’ll have to add that to my list.

    Eric

  105. 105
    Cato says:

    Under no circumstances should GLBT people any person use the bus system in Indianapolis.

    FTFY. Had drug addicts repeatedly and aggressively ask me for “change for a hot dog” (i.e. drug money) and pick-pocketed twice on that bus system when I lived there.

  106. 106
    TK421 says:

    @Linda Featheringill:

    I’ve seen more news articles lately about people proposing to kill those they disagree with.

    Me too.

    Obama’s Secret ‘Kill List’

  107. 107
    Ash Can says:

    @slippy:

    Maybe I’ll stop in and take a shit on this guy’s altar

    He’s pretty much done that himself already.

  108. 108
    LanceThruster says:

    True believers of any stripe are always willing to enlist as their god’s proxies.

    Thank glob for making me atheist.

  109. 109
    flukebucket says:

    @Cato:

    Well, the alternative was a below average pilot and a washed up beauty queen.

    And those two are head and shoulders above the 2012 competition.

  110. 110
    JGabriel says:

    Zandar:

    Knapp went on to read from Leviticus 20: “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death.”

    Ah, Leviticus. That’s the book that says anyone who eats leftovers on the third day must be kicked out of society. Seriously:

    5 “‘When you sacrifice a fellowship offering to the Lord, … It shall be eaten on the day you sacrifice it or on the next day … If any of it is eaten on the third day, it is impure and will not be accepted. 8 Whoever eats it will be held responsible because they have desecrated what is holy to the Lord; they must be cut off from their people.

    __
    Also, no mules, no mixing plants in the same field, and no wool/cotton or poly-blends:

    19 “‘Keep my decrees. Do not mate different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.'”

    __
    No embalming or tattoos:

    28 Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves.

    __
    No Freudian Psychiatry:

    Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.

    __
    And death to adulterers:

    If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife —with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

    __
    And fortune-tellers:

    A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.

    __
    Reverend Knapp should get back to us after he finds pure cotton vestments.

    .

  111. 111
    The Dangerman says:

    @TK421:

    Oh, please…

    There are some bad people on this planet that, if they can’t be captured, should be dispatched. For example, if the cops in Seattle cross paths with the person that shot up a coffee house in the U district this morning, they have a right to use deadly force. Even prior to a trial, which, I think everyone would agree, would be preferable in either the case of the Seattle shooter or terrorists.

  112. 112
    PurpleGirl says:

    @Yutsano: Funny how all these learned Biblical scholars ignore that.

    Don’t call these “ministers” scholars because they are not. They typically go to denominational Bible colleges, not exactly Harvard Divinity School. Many from some fundi sects haven’t gone to college at all. They are ignorant assholes.

  113. 113
    PIGL says:

    @Forum Transmitted Disease: personally, I am quite happy to have CDC blow the head from off every gay-bashing racist skinhead wannabe nazi punk that comes her way. I’d go much further than that, but not in polite company. The only problem with actually doing it is, you need to be ready when the survivors come back with their little friends. You have to be ready all the time, and they only need to toss one molotov cocktail through your window.

    A spectacular number of these viscious prciks would have to come to very sticky and public ends to have nuch of an effect on les autres, I am afraid. Again, I would be shedding no tears…except for all the good guys who would go down with them.

    I have no doubt that CDC has fully considered these factors; no tut-tutting, express or implied.

  114. 114
    PIGL says:

    @The Other Bob: Don’t be a jackass. No liberal is talking about banning guns. Even this socialist Canadian. I am, however, quite happy that fewer people here can carry them legally.

  115. 115
    Chris says:

    @PurpleGirl:

    Don’t call these “ministers” scholars because they are not. They typically go to denominational Bible colleges, not exactly Harvard Divinity School. Many from some fundi sects haven’t gone to college at all. They are ignorant assholes.

    Yeah, this.

    Those “Bible colleges” are an exercise in memorizing and regurgitating the shaky rationalizations of your predecessors as to how the Bible can be used to justify your denomination’s particular brand of Modern American Conservative ideology – and whenever there’s doubt, you know which of the two they’re going to go with.

  116. 116
    Culture of Truth says:

    @Bubblegum Tate: Oh sure, these guys claim they’re all pro-free-market, but when it’s time to commit a little genocide they come running to Big Government! Hypocrites!

    WIN

    AGREE

  117. 117
    Mark S. says:

    Is the authority for the federal government to kill 10% of the population found in any express grant of authority, or is it an implied power?

    These guys like reading the Bible literally, but I guess they don’t read the Constitution the same way.

  118. 118
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @gene108: Also, too I expect yappity-yappy women media types like Megyn Kelly, Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, etc. to shut their yaps and get back in the kitchen, because nothin’s done more to destroy the traditional family than uppity women thinking they could be independent without a man running things for them.

    Serena Joy

  119. 119
    gelfling545 says:

    @slippy: You vastly relieve my mind. Thanks so much.

  120. 120
    Xenos says:

    @Mark S.:

    Marriage was so precious to Jesus that he remained single all his life and encouraged his disciples to abandon their families.

    The sacraments are established by the acts and miracles of Jesus himself. Marriage is a sacrament because once, in Cana, Jesus provided the drinks.

  121. 121
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Xenos:

    Marriage is a sacrament because once, in Cana, Jesus provided the drinks.

    Hmmm. If Jesus threw a party before a chariot race in Jerusalem, would that make tailgating at a NASCAR event a sacrament?

  122. 122
    beltane says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Hmmm. If Jesus threw a party before a chariot race in Jerusalem, would that make tailgating at a NASCAR event a sacrament?

    Sounds like a typical subject for a fundie sermon. The only thing they like better than hating people is being told how wonderful and godly they are. See, Jesus wants you to get shitfaced at NASCAR events, it says so right in the Bible.

  123. 123

    @PIGL:

    No liberal is talking about banning guns.

    I know. It was a joke.

  124. 124
    Brachiator says:

    @Xenos:

    The sacraments are established by the acts and miracles of Jesus himself. Marriage is a sacrament because once, in Cana, Jesus provided the drinks.

    Wedding Planner Jesus?

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Hmmm. If Jesus threw a party before a chariot race in Jerusalem, would that make tailgating at a NASCAR event a sacrament?

    Thought it already was a sacrament in parts of the South.

  125. 125
    El Cid says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    If Jesus threw a party before a chariot race in Jerusalem, would that make tailgating at a NASCAR event a sacrament?

    Every NASCAR event is a sacrament, and any time 3 or more NASCAR fans are gathered together, Jesus is among them, and probably so is Dale Earnhardt.

  126. 126
    scav says:

    Odd thing about that Miracle of the Catering Sacrament, the Church did somehow manage to leave it to the secular authorities and public customs for half its miserable history. Started throwing its weight around more officiously in or around the 1100s and even then you got married outside the church not in it and there were protests because biological fathers could marry their kids with none of this priest bothering. Just another ancient social power-play by red beanies now blessed by the Magical Merlot.

  127. 127
    Marcellus Shale, Public Dick says:

    @Mark S.:

    if you are betting against your clients you expect to get crucified, and you don’t want to stop it.

  128. 128
    Death Panel Truck says:

    Kill them all, let God sort them out.

    The correct phrase in Latin is Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.

    Kill them all. The Lord will know His own.

  129. 129
    gaz says:

    If there were no religion, people would simply find other excuses to be nasty to each other, and murder each other.

    News flash: It’s not religion that’s the problem, it’s human nature.

    That said, the way loud idiots practice so called “Christianity” in this country makes me physically ill.

    I’m not a great christian. The difference between me and the moron quoted on the FP is that I know I’m not.

  130. 130
    PaulW says:

    @West of the Cascades:

    Well, if the Congressional population is equal to the US population, roughly 25 percent of Congress will be stoned to death for adultery. So yeah, incumbency will not be a serious issue before long.

  131. 131
    Forum Transmitted Disease says:

    @PIGL: Oh, I know she’s aware of it. And no tutting from her, she knows from experience. I’m talking about virtually everyone else. These people mean business and most everyone here doesn’t understand that by “business”, they mean “extermination”, and not just of the LGBT folk.

    I’ve seen this movie before, it’s an old one and it’s really depressing. It does end with a bang, however.

  132. 132
    Catsy says:

    “They should be put to death,” Knapp declared. “‘Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start killing them, no?’ — I’m saying the government should. They won’t, but they should.”

    I’m pretty sure this went over better in the original German.

  133. 133
  134. 134
    Ash Can says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    If Jesus threw a party before a chariot race in Jerusalem, would that make tailgating at a NASCAR event a sacrament?

    It would probably fulfill your Sunday obligation.

  135. 135
    gaz says:

    Also, cue Knapp being caught in a cruisy restroom with a bag of meth and a male hustler in 5…4…3….

  136. 136
    Chris says:

    @gaz:

    If there were no religion, people would simply find other excuses to be nasty to each other, and murder each other.

    News flash: It’s not religion that’s the problem, it’s human nature.

    I have to agree. I used to think the religious right was what was poisoning the Republican Party, and if that thing were killed, things would get better. Now I realize – if you want to know what the GOP would look like without any religion, just read Ayn Rand. Not really a step up, though not really a step down either. I don’t even think it would do a thing to stop the irrational, faith-based, reality-doesn’t-matter outlook on the world they have.

  137. 137
    gaz says:

    @celticdragonchick: Moving to the coasts seems to help reduce the risk of this problem. There’s a reason why most of america is referred to as “flyover country”. Northern ends of the coastline are better, IMO

    ETA: And speaking of tornado bait. Funny they never talk about god’s wrath when he smites them right in the .. .trailer park

  138. 138

    If there were no religion, people would simply find other excuses to be nasty to each other, and murder each other. News flash: It’s not religion that’s the problem, it’s human nature.

    For some reason, that reminds me of one of George Carlin’s jokes.

    The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, “You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I’m just not close enough to get the job done.”

    The human race is great at killing each other.

  139. 139
    gaz says:

    @Chris: Hater is as hater does. The justifications are just window dressing. =) agreed

  140. 140
    gaz says:

    @Heliopause: as a christian myself, i am deeply offended when people abuse the message of christ, and misappropriate it to serve their own violent twisted murder cult fantasies.

    I won’t let it go – and I’m not bringing jesus into it, THEY ARE.

  141. 141
    Catsy says:

    @gaz:

    News flash: It’s not religion that’s the problem, it’s human nature.

    I just can’t agree with this as a categorical statement. It’s kind of like saying crack and meth aren’t the problem, it’s human nature and biology. Well, that may be true up to a point, but all else being equal I’d rather people not have crack or meth at all, because they’re toxic and far too many people do fucked-up things and a ton of damage to themselves and those around them while they’re under the influence–and once they’re on it, it’s really hard to get them off of it.

    So it goes with religion. Humans certainly do find ways to be evil to each other without religion, but taken as a whole, religion just makes the problem worse by giving every whack job and weak mind in the world an easy way to justify doing fucked-up things and being shitty to people they don’t like under the delusion that their own personal flavor of Divine Magic Sock Puppet demands it.

    It’s a social and mental disease, and the world will be immeasurably better off once we, as a species, manage to evolve to the point where we stop regarding it as a healthy, normal part of the human condition and reject it the same way that we have so many other toxic social practices over the millenia.

  142. 142
    Ash Can says:

    @gaz:

    If there were no religion, people would simply find other excuses to be nasty to each other, and murder each other.

    Yep. People will always try to justify their fears and hatreds. Those fears and hatreds don’t magically go away when religion is taken out of the equation. Sometimes it’s tradition, sometimes it’s culture, sometimes it’s physical appearance. We’re born with the impulse to deflect blame away from ourselves and to justify our thoughts, feelings, and actions. If it’s not religion, it’s always something else.

  143. 143
    Citizen Alan says:

    @gaz:

    If there were no religion, people would simply find other excuses to be nasty to each other, and murder each other.

    News flash: It’s not religion that’s the problem, it’s human nature.

    Respectfully, I disagree. If there were no such thing as religion, good people would do good things and bad people would do bad things, but you would not have the horrific spectacle of good people doing bad things because they’ve been brainwashed into thinking God will torture them for eternity if they don’t. It takes religion to make a mother reject her child for loving someone of the wrong gender, religion or skin tone. It takes religion to elevate a single-celled zygote above a fully grown woman in importance. It takes religion to persuade significant numbers of people to tolerate the molestation of their own children and to continue to support the institutions that sanction it. It takes religion to keep people at each others throats for centuries as continual payback for crusades and jyhads going back a thousand years. It takes religion to cause someone to make a scene and storm out of a scientific lecture because the speaker makes the perfectly mundane observation that the moon reflects light rather than generates it. Would there have been a Holocaust without 2000 years of Christian dogma identifying Jews as “Christ-killers”? Would there have been a 9/11 if Osama Bin Laden had not been able to offer 99 virgins in Paradise to his deluded followers?

  144. 144
    gaz says:

    @Mark S.: they actually are not reading the bible literally at all. If they were they’d shut fuck the up. There’s that whole messy business of love your neighbor, love your enemies, the new covenenant, etc.

    What they are doing is cherry picking.

    In christian terms they are behaving in a manner consistent with The Accuser/The Father of Lies/insert nomme dujour, who can quote scripture better than any christian. And this is why.

    When people hurl scripture at others, you can nearly guarantee they are doing the work of lucifer. (Again, expressed in christian terms)

  145. 145
    pseudonymous in nc says:

    Ignore the trolls in pulpits.

  146. 146
    Brachiator says:

    @Catsy:

    So it goes with religion. Humans certainly do find ways to be evil to each other without religion, but taken as a whole, religion just makes the problem worse by giving every whack job and weak mind in the world an easy way to justify doing fucked-up things and being shitty to people they don’t like under the delusion that their own personal flavor of Divine Magic Sock Puppet demands it.

    Don’t agree. People are genius at coming up with rationalizations for screwing over other people.

  147. 147
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    decides it’s like New York New York or Duran Duran.

    Or Walla Walla, or Pago Pago. Or Sing Sing.

  148. 148
    TK421 says:

    Kill them all, let God sort them out.

    My goodness, just think what it would be like if that were our government’s policy.

  149. 149
    Chris says:

    @Catsy:

    So it goes with religion. Humans certainly do find ways to be evil to each other without religion, but taken as a whole, religion just makes the problem worse by giving every whack job and weak mind in the world an easy way to justify doing fucked-up things and being shitty to people they don’t like under the delusion that their own personal flavor of Divine Magic Sock Puppet demands it.

    Doesn’t the same apply in the other direction as well? Good people harnessing religion and using it to rally the weak-minded to their purpose? To use the two obvious and most oft-cited examples, would Gandhi and MLK have had as much success if all their high-minded rhetoric had been stated as “be good for goodness’ sake” rather than “this is in line with a supernatural code”?

    I’m asking, not stating.

  150. 150
    TK422 says:

    For the love of GOD would somebody please pay attention to me??

  151. 151
    gaz says:

    @Citizen Alan: If it wasn’t religion, it’d be nationalism, or anything else people get all panty-bunched over. A lot of secular horrible shit has happened in human history – religion is an excuse, not the cause. People are fundamentally hardwired to destroy each other. Generally speaking, we as a species are brutish, tribal, territorial, selfish, lazy, and fundamentally nasty. Sometimes we rise above all of that – but that takes actual effort.

  152. 152
    Hoodie says:

    @Chris: It’s not religion, it’s people’s desire to control one another and the usefulness of religion as an ideological instrument for that control. Religion, like any systematic explanation of existence, is vulnerable to corruption because it can be used to justify anything. Instead of contemplating the mystery of life that informs a lot of religion, religion’s corrupters use religion to eliminate all mystery. No one knows what Jesus would think of gay marriage today because Jesus ain’t around to ask, but don’t tell that to this and other bigot preachers. They know. Objectivism and other ideologies have similar issues. The best popular treatment of this I’ve seen was the old Jacob Bronowski series “The Ascent of Man” from the BBC back in the 70’s. A great argument from science for tolerance from a man who lost a great deal of his family in the Holocaust.

  153. 153
    gaz says:

    @Hoodie: Reading chris, and reading you, I think you guys are fairly in agreement with each other. Just sayin. The difference seems to be that he was arguing on more specific grounds, and you are making the same point, albeit a bit broader. 5,000′ view vs 10,000′ view, if you will.

  154. 154
    Ash Can says:

    @Citizen Alan:

    you would not have the horrific spectacle of good people doing bad things because they’ve been brainwashed

    Of course you would. We already have. Time and time again.

    You and Catsy are missing the point. The point is, if it weren’t religion driving atrocities, it would be something else, and history has proven as much. The struggles for resources, land, riches, waterways, etc. that have taken place throughout history would still take place. They’d be cloaked in something else, like nationalism or custom. Or they may not be cloaked at all. Civilizations with spiritualistic customs very different from ours, or with few discernible customs at all (e.g. very primitive cultures), haven’t exactly been flower children to each other through the ages.

    There would be atrocities, all right. Maybe not exactly the same ones, involving exactly the same players, but they’d have happened.

  155. 155
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @redshirt:
    A long haired, unmarried guy who wore a dress and hung out almost exclusively with other guys?
    Dusts hands in a “there, that’s done” gesture, and wanders off.

  156. 156
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    Wait, no block quote? What happened to block quote?
    And while we’re at it, what has happened to the edit function?
    I’m talkin’ to you, FYWP.

  157. 157
  158. 158

    @SiubhanDuinne: We don’t know he had long hair. There is no trusted description of Christ.

    We can surmise that he was of average height for his day, probably 5’6 (IIRC), likely had dark skin, and if the prophet Isaiah is to be taken literally, that he was a pretty average looking Jewish male for his time/place.

  159. 159
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Cato:

    And Indiana is Republican or centrist Democrat. How it voted for Obambi in ‘08 I still don’t understand, and don’t quite accept it.

    Gosh, me neither. Musta been some of that Democrat voter fraud I’ve been hearing so much about.

  160. 160
    Catsy says:

    @Brachiator:

    Don’t agree. People are genius at coming up with rationalizations for screwing over other people.

    Maybe, but we’d be better off if they didn’t have any extra help with that.

    You and Catsy are missing the point.

    Not at all, I just disagree completely. Speech that incites people to violence does real harm and–shock and surprise–can in fact produce violent acts. This has been demonstrated time and time again; it’s one of the reasons why we have laws defining the line separating free speech from criminal speech. It’s why we have to push back against people like this pastor, or pundits who wink-nod at violence against liberals.

    We would almost certainly still have gay-bullying and harassment of abortion providers without religion in the picture, but we have a lot more deadly violence against both precisely because people like the douchebag described in the OP go around preaching that the God their flock is supposed to obey hates these other people and wants them dead. The attitudes and acts that religious people believe are mandated by their deity carry an order of magnitude more weight than the prejudices of their schoolmates or the rantings of some jackass on a street corner.

    I can’t believe that this isn’t completely fucking obvious to people who otherwise recognize the role that violent speech plays in producing violent acts. Somehow it’s different when the source is someone’s Divine Magic Sock Puppet Manual rather than a right-wing nutjob.

  161. 161
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Comrade Dread:

    Wait, I’ve seen Ben-Hur, and I’m pretty sure Jesus had long blondish hair. Also, too, the pictures in my Children’s Bible.

  162. 162
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @JGabriel:

    Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

    Monsanto is all about the monoculture crops. Nice to know GM food is Biblically sanctioned.

  163. 163
    danielx says:

    I can’t believe that this isn’t completely fucking obvious to people who otherwise recognize the role that violent speech plays in producing violent acts. Somehow it’s different when the source is someone’s Divine Magic Sock Puppet Manual rather than a right-wing nutjob.

    I don’t know why you wouldn’t believe it. In my observation there are a huge number of people in this country who are blind to the completely fucking obvious to a great many things. Case in point: re-election of George Bush in 2004.

  164. 164
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @PIGL:

    but not in polite company

    ROFLMAO, this is Balloon Juice!!

  165. 165
    Gex says:

    Conveniently we already have over 300 camps dedicated to fixing the gay problem in the US. Right now we only use them to torture teens or to allow closet cases to self torture, but they will surely convert quite. Icily for this new purpose. The staff is partially trained in many of them, as the first thing they do to these kids is withhold food for 3 days.

    Seriously. Some anti-gay Americans will be shocked, but they shouldn’t be. The guys behind the marriage amendments say we rape kids, ruin families, and destroy societies. Why would anyone think that all they wanted was marriage bans? It’s bleeding obvious what the solution *should* be if you really believe those things. But no, the sheeple will be shocked, shocked I tell ya.

  166. 166
    ExcuseMeExcuseMe says:

    @gelfling545:

    If the family member MUST move there, I’d suggest that they investigate living in the Chatham Arch neighborhood. Have them check out Mass Ave area for restaurants, bars, shops, people.

    Urban Times is the Indianapolis alternative paper. They could call Urban Times and possibly order up some back issues and get an idea of what’s going on.

    There’s so much I like about that area of Indy – and some people I love dearly – but I will never, ever, move to Indiana. Having said that, your family member will be okay armed with some knowledge.

  167. 167
    gaz says:

    The other problem with the idea that “eliminating religion” will somehow fix or even mitigate people’s predispositions toward being evil towards each other is this:

    Show me how to eliminate religion from the human race without murdering everyone other than the atheists, and then sterilizing anyone who is still breathing.

    It just can’t be done. People are not only hardwired to fuck people over (generally people that aren’t like they are), but people are also hardwired (as a species) to believe in sky monsters.

  168. 168
    Greyjoy says:

    @Peregrinus:

    Random note, because I almost did a double-take: “New Hope Village Church” is the name of the church that the Left Behind series centers on. Though that one is based off of (well, prior to Knapp opening his homophobic mouth) even more obscure and out-of-the-mainstream theological beliefs.

    Yeah, but even Left Behind only had one group in those books advocating putting people to death for not following their particular religious tenets, and that was the group with the little sixes on their foreheads. And the church was set in Illinois and run by a guy who got left behind in the first place because he had a big reputation as a religious guy in his church but wasn’t actually walking the talk.

    Maybe Pastor Himmler should take note.

  169. 169
    Jebediah says:

    @Gex:

    The staff is partially trained in many of them, as the first thing they do to these kids is withhold food for 3 days.

    Really? Fuck, we are a twisted species. If there is any intelligent life in this galaxy, I hope they aren’t eyeballing us too closely.
    Those fucks sure are unclear on the “love the sinner” stuff. Of course, you have to be pretty twisted in the fist place to think that being as FSM made you is a fucking sin.

  170. 170
    PanurgeATL says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    What I’ve noticed is that ever since it became possible again for men to wear long hair, there’s been a strain of Evangelicalism that takes the line “We don’t really know what Jesus looked like, but he probably didn’t have long hair (so get a haircut you DFH)” as a way to counter people playing the “Jesus had long hair” card. Some of my Sunday School classmates when I was a kid had The Children’s Living Bible, and I noticed that Jesus’ hair in the illustrations done for it is somewhat shorter than previously depicted. Historical long-haired guys are apparently OK, because they’re all dead and not actually in the faces of “traditionalists”, who can rationalize it away as The Old Thing That People Today Don’t Do. You can’t even use history to show a conservative that things can be different. I mean, I understand the sense that anything one doesn’t like is somehow a rend in the fabric of the universe (I feel it myself about some things), but it’s not exactly an impulse I’d encourage.

  171. 171
    bk says:

    @longtime lurk: Last I saw, Pam Gellar wasn’t a tax-exempt institution.

  172. 172
    hells littlest angel says:

    Q: What’s the matter with Kansas?

    A: It’s full of fucking assholes.

  173. 173
    danielx says:

    @gelfling545:

    Some areas are perfectly fine. As noted, Mass Ave is okay, Chatham Arch is okay, Talbot St area is a gay enclave. Other parts of the city are fine to visit. Once he makes some local connects he’ll do well, although by comparison with New York it will be…provincial. Outside the metro area (Indianapolis and some parts of the surrounding counties), it’s pretty much like Alabama without the southern hospitality.

  174. 174
    danielx says:

    @hells littlest angel:

    This has been another edition of Simple Answers To Simple Questions.

  175. 175

    Yes, it’s true that if it wasn’t religion being such a driver of hatred, it would be something else. But it doesn’t mean religion gets a pass: An enemy among other enemies is still my enemy.

    Furthermore, there’s something qualitatively different about a worldview that is actively hostile to the very concept of rationality. It’s not really that much of a stretch to imagine that maybe we’ll get a little less homicidal batshit-crazy in the world if we stop lending legitimacy to that which enshrines batshit-craziness as the highest virtue.

  176. 176

    @gaz:

    I’m also hardwired when I see a pretty girl to rip her clothes off and fuck her senseless right there. Turns out on the whole we’re pretty good at impulse control.

  177. 177
    gaz says:

    @The Other Chuck: “But it doesn’t mean religion gets a pass: An enemy among other enemies is still my enemy.”

    The fuckstick subject of this post is my enemy.

    If you think I should be your enemy because I happen to be a fan of jesus so be it. Likely, you’ll lose a lot of friends and allies, though.

    “Furthermore, there’s something qualitatively different about a worldview that is actively hostile to the very concept of rationality”

    I can turn ANY worldview into something actively hostile to the very concept of rationality. Interpretation is a bitch, ain’t it? which is basically the point.

    Furthermore, I posit that irrationality is the subtext here, the point here, and the REAL enemy of rationality.

  178. 178

    @gaz:

    Actually the enemy here was religion in general, but you go ahead and stay up on that cross now. How’d you manage to nail the other arm up there all by yourself?

  179. 179
    Corner Stone says:

    Good God there’s a lot of self-righteous in this thread.

  180. 180
    gaz says:

    @The Other Chuck: Nothing to do with being up on a cross. Your interpretation of me martyring myself is pretty irrational as well.

    One basic truth:

    It doesn’t matter how, you get there, which path you choose: But if you choose to view life through a lens of hate, you’ll be hateful, or to be fair, maybe being extra hateful in the first places forces one to view everything through a lens of hate. If you pick jesus to do that, fine. Otherwise, plenty of people wind up there without jesus, or religion. Objectivist Randroids for example.

  181. 181
    gaz says:

    @Corner Stone: I am intrigued by your views and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

    It’s funny that you’ve stalked me ever since you found out that I hacked Lance. Is he your hero or something? Too funny. Maybe you should get a hobby? Just a friendly suggestion.

  182. 182
    Catsy says:

    @gaz:

    Show me how to eliminate religion from the human race without murdering everyone other than the atheists, and then sterilizing anyone who is still breathing.
    __
    It just can’t be done. People are not only hardwired to fuck people over (generally people that aren’t like they are), but people are also hardwired (as a species) to believe in sky monsters.

    This is a false choice.

    Over the millenia we’ve thrown up our hands and resigned ourselves to all sorts of social wrongs and malignant belief systems on the theory that they’re just human nature. In the history of the human race any number of things have been described as being derived from natural law or inextricably tied to the human condition. And time and time again, history has demonstrated this stance to be thinly rationalized horseshit.

    There is no such thing as “human nature”. This is a cop-out. We have a biological imperative to reproduce; everything else is culture or chemistry.

    Cultures can and do change. And just as the majority of civilized societies no longer believe that thunder is the anger of the gods or that diseases are caused by demonic possession, sooner or later we are going to evolve socially to the point where we reject the ritualistic elevation of “faith” over evidence and the silliness of thinking that (to paraphrase Robert Heinlein) this unimaginably vast universe is ruled by a jealous sky-father who craves the supplication of the inhabitants of this one tiny world, becomes petulant if he does not receive this praise, and communicated his preferred practices through a collection of nonsensical and mutually contradictory screeds that he has not bothered to clarify despite thousands of years of people misusing and mistranslating it.

    Furthermore, I posit that irrationality is the subtext here, the point here, and the REAL enemy of rationality.

    In which case you should reject most religions outright: for their message and vector of transmission are the codified rejection of rationality in favor of faith–which is nothing more than irrationality dressed up in a more benign-sounding term.

  183. 183
    gaz says:

    @Catsy: In that entire post, you failed to answer the very simple question.

    Without discounting the whole of human history, show me how you wipe religion out of it. That’s all I was really asking you to demonstrate.

    “In which case you should reject most religions outright:”

    I happen to disagree. As for me, I can pack the whole of Jesus’s message into two basic, and very rational things.

    Love people. Put others before yourself.

    If you flat out asked me whether or not I believed in the existence of such things as the “holy trinity” I’d say I don’t engage in that line of thinking, for that’s entirely beside the point. What I agree with is the message. In general, because of assholes like the subject of the FP post, and because dogmatic atheists I generally refer to myself as a fan of jesus. That shuts most people up, but were I not in america, I suppose the word christian wouldn’t carry so much dumb baggage.

    Unlike you, I won’t tell you what you SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT believe unless your particular beliefs cause harm to other people. Why? Because I find it is both irrational and insulting to do so. I’m not going to realign my worldview to satisfy some stranger, and I don’t expect you to either.

    For my part, I rejected strict empiricism long ago, deciding that rationalism provided more answers. That’s how I came by spirituality in the first place. I’m in pretty good company. If you don’t know what I mean, I encourage you to google both those terms together.

  184. 184
    gaz says:

    @Catsy: Getting back to my original point about this, is that you can’t simply hope to “fix” anyone by either eliminating religion wholesale or by otherwise controlling them – which is essentially the only way you could eliminate people in the first place. Control over others is at least as dangerous as religion itself (for my part, I think it’s more dangerous – because the worst incarnations of religion are a tool for controlling others, but imposing strict secularism is itself another form of control)

    If people want to rise above the hate and bullshit, each person must, through actual effort. There’s no easy solution, nor social structure, nor religious structure, nor unreligious structure that provides that. One true-wayism is false. Real evolving takes work. Individual work. Society can help create structures that encourage people to work within the right frame, but in the end they are always abused. Real growth comes from oneself. That is our burden. There’s no pill. There’s no silver bullet. That in itself is magical thinking.

  185. 185
    ruemara says:

    @Brachiator:

    Brachiator Says:

    @Xenos:

    The sacraments are established by the acts and miracles of Jesus himself. Marriage is a sacrament because once, in Cana, Jesus provided the drinks.

    Wedding Planner Jesus?

    If Jesus was a male wedding planner that women ran to to fix things when an event went awry, and he was kinda bitchy but did fix it…

  186. 186
    Mark S. says:

    @ruemara:

    He was kinda bitchy in that story.

  187. 187
    Catsy says:

    @gaz:

    Without discounting the whole of human history, show me how you wipe religion out of it. That’s all I was really asking you to demonstrate.

    No, that’s really not all you said; I’m pretty sure it included a completely false choice involving genocide. Which, you know, thanks, but totally not what I was saying.

    But as to what you say your central question is: I did answer that. Re-read what I wrote.

    Cultures can and do change. And just as the majority of civilized societies no longer believe that thunder is the anger of the gods or that diseases are caused by demonic possession, sooner or later we are going to evolve socially to the point where we reject the ritualistic elevation of “faith” over evidence and the silliness of thinking that (to paraphrase Robert Heinlein) this unimaginably vast universe is ruled by a jealous sky-father who craves the supplication of the inhabitants of this one tiny world, becomes petulant if he does not receive this praise, and communicated his preferred practices through a collection of nonsensical and mutually contradictory screeds that he has not bothered to clarify despite thousands of years of people misusing and mistranslating it.

    I’m sorry I don’t have a magic solution for you. There isn’t one, any more than there was a magic solution to just about any other ridiculous belief humans have clung to in absence of or defiance to evidence.

    You may not like that answer, but it doesn’t mean I didn’t provide one.

    I happen to disagree. As for me, I can pack the whole of Jesus’s message into two basic, and very rational things.
    __
    Love people. Put others before yourself.
    __
    If you flat out asked me whether or not I believed in the existence of such things as the “holy trinity” I’d say I don’t engage in that line of thinking, for that’s entirely beside the point.

    It’s really nice that you think that. The problem is that your take really has almost nothing to do with the practice or dogma of the religion itself, and even less to do with the human-authored text from which it comes. And less still to do with the way the overwhelming majority of that belief system’s adherents relate that owner’s manual to living in the bronze age to their lives and prejudices. It’s really nothing more than your attempt to sieve a few drops of pure water out of a pool of toxic waste in order to slake your thirst for some kind of meaning in life.

    It’s admirable, but it really has fuckall to do with religion in general or Christianity in specific.

    Unlike you, I won’t tell you what you SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT believe unless your particular beliefs cause harm to other people. Why? Because I find it is both irrational and insulting to do so.

    In general I don’t actually go around telling people what they should or shouldn’t believe. I make an exception when someone tells me in one breath that the real enemy is irrationality and in the next that they have religious beliefs. I was pointing out that if you really think irrationality is so awful, the logical conclusion of this is to reject religion. It’s not my problem if your belief systems are contradictory.

    Getting back to my original point about this, is that you can’t simply hope to “fix” anyone by either eliminating religion wholesale or by otherwise controlling them – which is essentially the only way you could eliminate people in the first place.

    Gosh, and it sure would be awful if I’d ever advocated any such thing. It’s almost as if I didn’t expend the vast majority of my response to you pointing out that it’s the sort of thing that is simply going to have to happen over time as we evolve socially as a species and come to reject the kinds of toxic magical thinking that plague our cultures, just as we have progressively and increasingly done for millenia.

    For fuck’s sake, you’re better than this.

  188. 188
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @Spaghetti Lee: You won the thread two comments in! Impressive.

    You know, I can’t even with these fools. Let’s watch this oldie-but-goodie by Funny or Die instead of giving this shitstain any more attention. If I’m going to be executed by my gubmint, I’d prefer to die laughing.

  189. 189
    Ash Can says:

    @Catsy: Your anti-religion bias is blinding you. Look up Josef Stalin. Look up Pol Pot. Look up Rwanda. Look up colonial North America, colonial South America, Australia and New Zealand. Conflagrations and genocides all. Tell me how religion — anybody’s religion — defined any of those shitstorms.

    You’re assigning way too much power to religious belief and political influence. Take a breath and look at the big picture.

  190. 190
    Brachiator says:

    @Catsy:

    Maybe, but we’d be better off if they didn’t have any extra help with that.

    When I was younger, I used to think that religion “made” some people fearful or intolerant. Now I see that some fearful and intolerant people run to religion and use it as a cover, reason, or excuse for their bad actions.

    The longer view of history is too full of examples of people and nations committing atrocities for clearly non religious reasons for anyone to make deity worship a special whipping boy.

  191. 191
    CW in LA says:

    Sometimes I regret the passing of the days when the government fed the likes of Pastor Knapp to lions for the amusement of the public.

  192. 192
    gaz says:

    @Catsy: I was asking the same thing both times, in different ways. Maybe you didn’t understand me the way I put in the first place, (but I suspect you were being pedantic, although that’s beside the point). Either way, you eventually worked around to what I was asking, and gave me the very answer that underscores the point of the question I posed. To wit:

    “I’m sorry I don’t have a magic solution for you. There isn’t one, any more than there was a magic solution to just about any other ridiculous belief humans have clung to in absence of or defiance to evidence.”

    Yep, including the irrational magical thinking that eliminating religion will somehow solve or even ameliorate the problem of people being haters.

    ” make an exception when someone tells me in one breath that the real enemy is irrationality and in the next that they have religious beliefs.”

    So I’m irrational, and yet the fictions of many historical figures probably suit you just fine – most of what we no of history is grossly romanticized before you ever learn anything about it. I’ll call something “irrational” when I can make a direct case as to it’s irrationality. In the points where I’ve labeled something irrational, you’ll note that there is a clear and straight line between the subject of my criticism and the rational alternative. I use the word quite carefully. You aren’t doing that here.

    Furthermore, you’re engaging in just as much dogma (not as an atheist, but as a dismissive atheist – you are laying claim to answers where you have none. You imply that your supposed rationality is based on empiricism, but science doesn’t support your position, and it doesn’t support mine either. The difference is, I actually know it doesn’t support mine). . You have utter faith in your atheistic position, with no evidence to support it. Only Occam’s Razor, and that’s not the same thing.

    “Gosh, and it sure would be awful if I’d ever advocated any such thing.”

    Really? You’re not advocating that rejecting faith is some kind of answer to this hateful aspect of the human condition? Well I must have read you wrong, but it sure reads that way to me.

    “It’s almost as if I didn’t expend the vast majority of my response to you pointing out that it’s the sort of thing that is simply going to have to happen over time as we evolve socially as a species and come to reject the kinds of toxic magical thinking that plague our cultures, just as we have progressively and increasingly done for millenia.”

    First thing: Show me where we have shed faith as we have evolved. I’d like some evidence of that. I’d say that faith has evolved, but not diminished.

    Second thing: This part I quoted from you IS magical thinking because of the First thing just above – you’ve got nothing to support your position there.

  193. 193
    gaz says:

    @Catsy: Here’s the shorter of my previous post to you:

    Both of our positions are based on faith.

    The difference is, I’m aware that mine is.

    You are free to disagree with me on my position. But to paint mine as irrational because it’s faith based would serve to make yours irrational as well, applying the same standards.

  194. 194
    Jebediah says:

    @asiangrrlMN:

    If I’m going to be executed by my gubmint, I’d prefer to die laughing.

    Perhaps you have forgotten that you appointed me your sergeant-at-arms. I’ll at least make it difficult for them, and if I do it ineptly enough you can laff and laff as yo umake your escape.

  195. 195
    gaz says:

    @Catsy: Looks like I edited poorly, or otherwise fuxored one of my comemnts above, and just now noticed

    Getting back to my original point about this, is that you can’t simply hope to “fix” anyone by either eliminating religion wholesale or by otherwise controlling them – which is essentially the only way you could eliminate people religion in the first place.

    Fixed. I apologize for any confusion that may have caused. I think you read it in the way I meant, though – but this is just in case.

    I still don’t see the evidence that religion is dying, or will die as society evolves. Human history doesn’t seem to support that claim. Gobs of people are faithful, the majority even? As it has always been. I think one of the things that may have happened is that people are less inclined to pay lip-service to religion in the public sphere, maybe because church is now much more decoupled from state power structures than it used to be. I stand by my earlier assertion that faith has evolved. I think your argument seems to hinge on faith being diminished, but I have yet to see anything that supports your assertion. I suspect your argument is faith based. Show me some compelling evidence, and I’ll reconsider.

  196. 196
    gaz says:

    @JGabriel: Leviticus is shot through with all kinds of things that are both sensitive to the time and place where it was written. The entire thing is culturally contextual. Most of the old testament and huge swaths of the new testament are as well. Attempting to make the literal translations fit into a different culture, 2 millenia after the fact, just doesn’t work.

    Leviticus is largely about the practices of a tribe which were supposed to have a special relationship with god. They were basically priests, and as such had extra rules and practices with which they were subject to to remain “clean”. It’s also possible that a large part of this was about maintaining a sense of separation between them and the larger (particularly) non-jewsish tribes with which they were surrounded.

    To try to apply any of it today would require a large amount of research in order to uncover the underlying context in which it was written. That takes a lot of work, a lot of study, and even then, much of that context is unknowable to us. To put it simply, we weren’t there. It’s pretty safe to say that anyone that glibly quotes scripture (in general, but Leviticus in particular) is fairly ignorant of how to read the texts. They’d be better served leaving that to historians and religious scholars.

  197. 197
    PWL says:

    Is it any wonder that the symbol of the Christian religion is that of an instrument of torture and death? Seems appropriate somehow.

  198. 198
    jazzman says:

    It’s not just Leviticus. Take, for instance, Deuteronomy 23:1: “No man whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis has been cut off may enter the Lord’s assembly.” So if any of these guys happen to show up some Sunday morning at the New Hope Baptist Church, Pastor Knapp, you’ll have to tell them they’re not welcome.

    Curtis Knapp, why do you hate the troops?

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