This Changes What?

Again, I’m not sure what this changes:

WFTV has confirmed that autopsy results show 17-year-old Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles when he died.

The information could support George Zimmerman’s claim that Martin beat him up before Zimmerman shot and killed him.

The autopsy results come as Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara continues to go over other evidence in the case.

O’Mara wouldn’t comment on the autopsy evidence, but WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer said it’s better for the defense than it is for the prosecution.

WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles.

I guess I just don’t understand why this changes anything. No one disputes there was a fight. What is disputed is what caused the fight. From what we know about the incident that is verifiable, Trayvon knew he was being followed (from the conversations with his girlfriend on the phone), Zimmerman is on tape with the 911 folks admitting he followed him, and from there, we are not sure what happened. Knuckle injuries on Trayvon could prove self defense on his part, as he was the innocent just walking through the neighborhood and was confronted by Zimmerman.

None of this new information changes the basic facts, which are that if Zimmerman hadn’t violated Neighborhood Watch rules and confronted Trayvon, and if Zimmerman hadn’t decided Trayvon was a threat simply because he was a black kid in the neighborhood, and if Zimmerman hadn’t been carrying a gun (again, against the Neighborhood Watch rules), Trayvon Martin would be alive today. I’d bet even the authors of the Stand Your Ground bill that makes this so legally murky never intended for people to accost someone, then, when losing the fight, pull out a pistol and shoot them. Even the NRA and ALEC aren’t that stupid.






109 replies
  1. 1
    The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik says:

    It’s starting to smell like the fix is in.

  2. 2
    lamh35 says:

    Can any lawyers (or any “couch” lawyers) tell what it means when they say the shot was at an “intermediate” range?

  3. 3
    Yutsano says:

    It lays the grounds for reasonable doubt. And Zimmerman walks. Right into a wingnut welfare gig. Ain’t America great?

  4. 4
    cathyx says:

    What does WFTV stand for? What the f*ck TV? Yes, there was a struggle, and then the gun came out and Trayvon was shot. Not that difficult to figure out.

  5. 5
    The Dangerman says:

    Doesn’t Stand Your Ground mean Martin could use his fists? After all, he was the one being stalked.

  6. 6
    danimal says:

    I’d bet even the authors of the Stand Your Ground bill that makes this so legally murky never intended for people to accost someone, then, when losing the fight, pull out a pistol and shoot them. Even the NRA and ALEC aren’t that stupid.

    Unfortunately, I sense a profit opportunity here. How much do you want to bet?

  7. 7
    lamh35 says:

    Related to this story, this headline just made me think “No Shit Sherlock”.

    <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47.....r6SqPolice missteps in Trayvon Martin case hurt prosecution“>

  8. 8
    Teddy's Person says:

    Could the injuries to his knuckles have come from falling down after being shot?

  9. 9
    The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik says:

    @The Dangerman:

    But he was black, and apparently injured someone not-black. That’s clear case of justifiable homicide under the case of ‘Shut up vs. Because I Say So’

  10. 10
    cathyx says:

    Stand your ground only applies to white people.

  11. 11
    Raven says:

    @Teddy’s Person: Forensics should be able to determine what caused them.

  12. 12

    @cathyx:

    What does WFTV stand for?

    It’s a station’s call letters, not a mysterious new abbreviation.

    I’d bet even the authors of the Stand Your Ground bill that makes this so legally murky never intended for people to accost someone, then, when losing the fight, pull out a pistol and shoot them.

    I wouldn’t make that bet. I’m pretty sure that the Zimmerman/Martin case is pretty much what they had in mind, except Zimmerman probably isn’t quite as white as they were hoping. They whole point of it was to let the right kind of people harass dangerous others and back their threats up with firepower if/when those others refused to back down.

  13. 13
    Brendan in NC says:

    @Yutsano:
    Either that or it gets the charge reduced to involuntary manslaughter, and he’ll get time seerved.

    Then again I am not a lawyer

  14. 14
    lamh35 says:

    Question, from this report and Zimmerman’s family physician’s report does Martin’s knuckle bruising seem consistent with, all those alleged injuries Zimmerman had? Wouldn’t Trayvon have had more injuries to his hand if he’d broken Zimmerman’s nose and given him 2 black eyes?

    Or is Zimmeman claiming that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman was face down and Trayvon was slamming his head into ground. Then Zimmerman would have had to turn off and shoot Trayvon right? Plus I assume “Intermediate” distance means not quite close range, but enough to brandish the gun for Martin to see???

    Ugh.

    I’m with someone upthread. The fix is definitely in.

  15. 15
    Maude says:

    This isn’t the full autopsy report. It’s a leaked bit of info.
    This is in line with the report that Zimmerman had injuries.
    Something is fishy.

  16. 16
    cathyx says:

    @Roger Moore: Yes, I know that, I was being sarcastic.

  17. 17
    lamh35 says:

    @Maude: the Martin family attorney said as much. He said that the family wants to know who the heck is leaking this information. He thinks it’s the Zimmerman team (or the police department CYA squad again)

  18. 18

    @cathyx:
    Sorry, but you left off the sarcasm tag. Poe’s Law and all that.

  19. 19
    Elizabelle says:

    @Yutsano:

    how are you feeling, dude?

  20. 20
    Lavocat says:

    This may actually give some (cold) comfort to Trayvon’s parents insofar as it seems to show that the child 1) was defending himself before/when he died, and 2) that but for the introduction of a weapon into the mix, Trayvon might still be alive today.

    Bullies tend not to relish continuing the onslaught when their victims actually fight back.

    ARMED bullies, OTOH, don’t give a rat’s ass.

    I think either side can spin this however they like.

    But, in the end, John Cole is absolutely correct: Zimmerman went LOOKING for trouble and he was ITCHING to use that weapon on someone.

    Someone want to begin the countdown as to how long before the Lamestream Media start claiming that had Trayvon NOT tried to fight back against his attacker, he might actually be alive today?

    I guess Defending Oneself While Black means you had that bullet coming.

    Sick bastards.

  21. 21
    jnfr says:

    @lamh35:

    IANAL, and “intermediate” could have a wide range, but I assume one meaning is “not shot at close range”. Or otherwise, not shot while Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman pounding his head into the pavement, because that close would leave all kind of gunpowder and blood and such all over Zimmerman.

  22. 22
    Joseph Nobles says:

    WFTV has confirmed shit. The autopsy report has one – count it! – one single fresh wound on his fingers, an abrasion 1/4 inch long on the left ring finger.

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_n.....&lite

  23. 23
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Yutsano: Yuts! How are things?

  24. 24
    JGabriel says:

    John Cole @ Top:

    I’d bet even the authors of the Stand Your Ground bill that makes this so legally murky never intended for people to accost someone, then, when losing the fight, pull out a pistol and shoot them. Even the NRA and ALEC aren’t that stupid.

    I’d bet that they are. Lots of NRA supporters strike me as just the type who carry a gun so they can pick fights with people and then shoot them if they’re losing.

    .

  25. 25
    srv says:

    No one is disputing there was a fight? I guess I misremember all that traffic about how those videos proved Zimmerman had no injuries and just executed Martin.

    Martin probably Stood His Ground under a life threatening situation. Something else we’ll see a flip-flop on later.

  26. 26
    liberal says:

    Even the NRA and ALEC aren’t that stupid.

    All those scum care about is increasing gun manufacturer sales.

  27. 27
    Elie says:

    Why is this “information” out in the public eye? Who is releasing it and is it even accurate?

    It don’t make no difference whether Zimmerman is found “guilty” or not. Unless he radically changes his appearance he is a dead man if the jury finds him “innocent”. Even if not, every fucking asset he has is gone. Who the fuck is going to pay for keeping him safe? If he were an articulate self promoter, maybe. He is an ignorant fuck who is just an accident waiting to happen all of his fucking life. Mostly, he needs to figure out where he can move after all of this is over and keep a low profile. If he want a high profile, he will need all to pay for all the other and none of that is ever perfect….

    But going back to may original question, where is all this “information” coming from and why is this site propagating it?

  28. 28
    Unabogie says:

    Was Trayvon left handed? If not, why is the only defensive wound on his left hand and not his “punching” hand?

  29. 29
    Mnemosyne says:

    Here’s the thing, guys: based on everything I’ve read, Zimmerman will probably walk. Not because he’s not a horrible person, but because the Florida law is basically written to encourage people to kill each other during arguments.

    I’m not kidding. When you have judges deciding that a guy can go to his ex-wife’s house with a gun, get into an argument with her new boyfriend, shoot the boyfriend dead, and it’s justifiable under Stand Your Ground, that’s basically the state deciding that the person left standing after any fatal argument is legally untouchable. When the state decides that you can chase after a guy, stab him to death, take the bag of car radios in his hand and sell them and yet you were still within your legal rights to stand your ground, Florida is legalizing murder.

    This is beyond race at this point. This is Florida legalizing people murdering each other just because. The original prosecutor was probably correct — under Florida law, Zimmerman is allowed to shoot anyone he feels threatened by, at any time, and the law can’t touch him thanks to Stand Your Ground.

  30. 30
    Mr Furious says:

    The way I understand the way the law is written, it doesn’t matter who started the fight or why, once you fear for your life, you are justified in using deadly force.

    Zimmerman is still in the clear. Fucked up as that is. I think he walks and then shit hits the fan in FLA. There’ll likely be some serious rioting.

    Edit: What Mnemosyne said.

  31. 31

    @JGabriel:
    I agree. The appeal of this law is for someone who does not want to have to be restrained by proportionate defense. They want to be able to feel like whenever they personally feel justified in shooting someone, the law will agree.

  32. 32
    jrg says:

    @Unabogie: If you’re right handed, your left hand typically is your “punching” hand. It’s the hand you jab with.

  33. 33
    The Dangerman says:

    @cathyx:

    Stand your ground only applies to white people.

    Understand the snark, but, at the end of the day, only 1 of the parties gets to claim Stand Your Ground, right? Seems to me that Martin kicking Zimmerman’s ass was justified.

    If both parties can claim SYG, well, that’s incredibly fucked up, I mean, the aggressor may always be better armed and, in that case, I wouldn’t set foot in Florida without packing.

  34. 34
    Elie says:

    And just as Zimmerman went “looking for trouble” — trouble will come “looking for him”. He cannot get past the reality that he has no exit from this, even with the gazillions of bigots in this country. Unless he is cosseted for the rest of his life, he has a very uncertain fate… he will certainly have to look over his shoulder for a while.. unless he is going to spend his life in the Northwest woods with the Aryan Nation.

  35. 35

    No one disputes there was a fight

    Except until now Martin’s family and their attorney.

    And the regulars at this blog repeating the narrative of gunned down in cold blood “Armed only With Skittles And Iced Tea”

    None of this new information changes the basic facts

    What changed the basic fact of Trayvon bashing Zimmerman’s head on the sidewalk?

  36. 36
    Mr Furious says:

    The door’s probably still open to the DoJ civil rights case, but I’m pretty sure Zimmerman is shielded from even a civil case for wrongful death by Martin’s family.

    They covered everything with this horseshit law.

  37. 37
    Elie says:

    Cool. If some of you are right, Zimmerman “walks”. To what exactly? A life spent in hiding? A life spent as a hood ornament for the Aryan Nation with a personal guard?

    His life is over.

  38. 38
    Mnemosyne says:

    @WWStBreitbartD:

    What changed the basic fact of Trayvon bashing Zimmerman’s head on the sidewalk?

    So, just to be clear, if your 17-year-old kid was being followed at night by a strange man in a car, and that man got out of his car, you would tell your kid that he should cooperate with anything the man told him to do because the man might be part of the Neighborhood Watch and not, say, a child molester or a mugger, right?

  39. 39
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @jrg:

    If you’re right handed, your left hand typically is your “punching” hand. It’s the hand you jab with.

    Sure, in boxing. Most fights I have been around don’t involve a shitload of technique.

  40. 40
    Unabogie says:

    @jrg:

    I don’t think that makes sense to me. If I am in a fight, I hit with my dominant hand. My left hand would be for defense, not punching. Maybe a boxer would use his left to “jab”, but as far as I know, Trayvon was not a boxer.

  41. 41
    Raven says:

    @jrg: Say what? This wasn’t some fucking boxing match. Your ass is in a bind you throw your best punch, not a jab.

  42. 42
    jrg says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Fair enough, but every one I’ve seen involves both hands. Just saying I wouldn’t read too much into which hand had an abrasion.

  43. 43
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Mr Furious:

    The way I understand the way the law is written, it doesn’t matter who started the fight or why, once you fear for your life, you are justified in using deadly force.

    As far as I can tell, that’s exactly how it’s been interpreted by the Florida Supreme Court. Under this law, an abusive husband could violate a restraining order, go to his ex-wife’s house and kill her, and he would walk free as long as he claimed that she fought back and he was afraid she would win the fight. He couldn’t even be indicted for murder.

  44. 44
    polyorchnid octopunch says:

    @danimal: Damn it, you beat me to it.

  45. 45
    Raven says:

    @jrg: Unless you hit someone square in the mouth it’s not that easy to cut your hand throwing a punch.

  46. 46
    Unabogie says:

    @jrg:

    But why no marks on his punching hand? Zimmerman’s story is he was taking a real beating. So where is the evidence of this? Is there blood on Martin’s hands from Zimmerman? I saw the video of Zimmerman that was taken 35 minutes after the shooting, and his shirt is spotless. But the next day he has two black eyes and a broken nose. That sounds like whoever hit him in his head ought to have some marks from that.

  47. 47
    Ben Cisco says:

    Even the NRA and ALEC aren’t that stupid.

    Clearly you have more faith in that than I do.

  48. 48
    russell says:

    Zimmerman stalked Martin in his car, then by foot, without identifying himself or explaining what he was about. He assumed that Martin was up to no good because he was black.

    When he approached Martin on foot, Martin beat him up. So, Zimmerman shot him.

    Zimmerman could have stayed in his car, as the police recommended. He could have waited for the cops to show up. He could have addressed Martin from a safe distance explaining who he was and what he was about. He could have left his gun at home while on neighborhood watch rounds, as is recommended by neighborhood watch, who wants nothing to do with Zimmerman.

    He did none of those things, and Martin is dead.

    IMO the “hate crime” thing is stupid and is going to go nowhere. Zimmerman saw a black kid and assumed he was up to no good, which makes him about as racist as probably half the people in this country.

    What he should be liable for is unnecessarily provoking a confrontation that led to Martin’s death. I have no idea if that is a crime in FL, or anywhere else. But it should be.

    My expectation is that Zimmerman will walk. Shortly thereafter, he will be making the rounds of the usual right wing media organs, explaining how sorry he is, but also how glad he is he was carrying his gun that day.

    The real issue here is not Zimmerman’s racism, because it’s freaking garden variety. The issue is the ease with which jumped-up wannabe wish-I-was-a-real-cops can get and use firearms without having to take responsibility for how the gun is used.

    You carry the gun, you’re responsible for what the gun does. They don’t shoot people by themselves.

  49. 49
    Raven says:

    @Unabogie: What if he TM was slammin his head on the ground rather than punching him? (I’m NOT defending Zimmerman but lot’s of shit happens in fights”

  50. 50

    @Mnemosyne:
    I would tell the kid to hurry home and try to avoid the strange man.

    I guess would have your kid just beat the crap out of the strange man for disrespecting him.

    See Jordan Miles

    John C. you still claiming Trayvon was the one screaming for help as he bashed the 250lb white guy/Zimmerman’s head on the sidewalk?

  51. 51
    russell says:

    unless he is going to spend his life in the Northwest woods with the Aryan Nation.

    He’s way, way, way too brown for the Aryans.

    If I was going to give him advice, I’d suggest he head for Miami and hang with the winger Cubans. They’ll love him.

  52. 52
    Raven says:

    @WWStBreitbartD: You’re fucking moron, fuck off.

  53. 53
    lacp says:

    Zimmerman walks. Keeps his concealed-carry permit. Shoots somebody else within the next 2-3 years. Whether he walks from that one or not….the Magic 8-Ball says situation cloudy, try again later.

  54. 54
    Unabogie says:

    @Raven:

    If that were true, Zimmerman would have more than two superficial cuts that didn’t need bandages of any kind. In the video taken a half hour later, he’s not even bleeding. Plus, and this is important, he claimed that he was being punched.

    Also, there are some pictures of Trayvon’s body. And it appears to be several feet away from any sidewalk. If Zimmerman shot hit while being pummelled over the sidewalk, how did his body end up so far onto the grass? Especially if Zimmerman claims he they were both on the ground. What, did Martin get shot, stand up, then walk 10 feet before falling down?

    And I say this as someone who agrees Zimmerman will likely walk. It seems as though the law favors people who do the shooting.

  55. 55
    russell says:

    I guess would have your kid just beat the crap out of the strange man for disrespecting him.

    “Disrespecting”?

    I’m a late middle aged white suburban householder. I have absolutely zero standing to speak for black people.

    All of that said, were I black I think my first instinct would be to tell my kids to STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM WHITE PEOPLE, BECAUSE THEY ARE CRAZY. Just stay the god-damn fuck away. Far, far, far away. Do not engage.

    Then I would think about taking my kids to the range, teaching them how to shoot, and see if I could get them licenses to carry. Can kids under 18 carry a gun?

    Seriously, I think it must be damned hard for black folks to feel like it isn’t open god-damned season on their kids. In FL, anyway.

  56. 56
    jncc says:

    Well the fix is obviously in.

    Everybody knows that self-appointed neighborhood watch captain Zimmerman set out that night looking for a black man to kill.

    After he found one and even after the police EXPLICITLY told him not to follow Martin, he chased him down and attacked him even though he had 100 pounds of muscle advantage over Martin and got him on the ground and was beating him and shot him once and then, after Martin yelled for help, he shot him a SECOND time. You can hear the second shot on the 911 call where the woman called after hearing shots fired.

    The police did basically no investigation of the murder and just let him walk despite the fact that Zimmerman didn’t have any injuries at all. That is plain to see on the police station surveillance tape. And even if he did have a couple of cuts on the back of his head, Zimmerman could have self-inflicted those, and the police could have helped him do that. And the funeral home attendant said clearly that Martin did not have any scrapes on his knuckles.

    So all of this so called “evidence” that the prosecutors handed over is just part of some big coverup.

    Martin was armed only with skittles.

  57. 57
    Raven says:

    @Unabogie: Beats me, I wasn’t there but if you don’t think someone could move 10 feet after taking a 9 you are dreamin.

  58. 58

    @russell:
    You carry the gun, you’re responsible for what the gun does. They don’t shoot people by themselves.
    Except if you are a member of the holy Police union.
    BART Police shooting of Oscar Grant
    police officers must make “split-second decisions” and their safety is paramount.

  59. 59
    Unabogie says:

    @Raven:

    Are you saying you think that’s possible? Remember, they were both on the ground. So he would have take a shot to the chest, then gotten up and moved over to where he ended up. Isn’t it more likely he just fell over since he was down on his knees, according to Zimmerman?

  60. 60
    Raven says:

    @jncc: After he found one and even after the police EXPLICITLY told him not to follow Martin,

    Wrong, the civilian dispatcher said “We don’t need you to do that.” The report of what was said are not the same as the transcript of the 911 call.

  61. 61
    OzoneR says:

    Supports the possibility that Zimmerman shot Trayvon to defend himself. While that may not be the case, “may” is the key word. If there’s even a shred of possibility that’s how things went down, Zimmerman walks

  62. 62
    Raven says:

    @Unabogie: Like I said, I don’t know, I wasn’t there. Depending on where he was hit he could have died instantly, got up, crawled. I think Zimmerman is a fucking scumbag who deserves life in the joint but there’s a lot we don’t know.

  63. 63
    russell says:

    Except if you are a member of the holy Police union.

    You got that right.

    So, were I a black parent, and even were I a white parent of a young person (which I no longer am), I would tell my kids to stay the hell away from cops.

    If a cop talks to you, say yes sir, no sir, and then get the fuck away ASAP. If a cop pulls you over, find a well-lit place to pull over, then turn the radio off, get both hands on the wheel, and keep your freaking voice down. If you see a cop on the street, cross the street.

    We are living in a fucked up world, y’all.

  64. 64
    jncc says:

    Beats me, I wasn’t there but if you don’t think someone could move 10 feet after taking a 9 you are dreamin.

    Spot on, the “9” is one of the most powerful rounds out there It is what the police carry.

    I propels a massive 124 or 147 grain bullet at speed exceeding 1100 feet per second resulting in a muzzle energy of nearly 400 foot pounds.

    You don’t take a step after taking the mighty 9!

  65. 65
    jncc says:

    @Raven:
    Well, I don’t know what you are talking about. John Cole his own self said that the police EXPLICITLY told Zimmerman not to follow Martin.

    Now, if Cole had written that the police explicitly told Zimmerman not to follow, there might be some confusion. But the all caps puts this beyond debate.

  66. 66
    russell says:

    Even the NRA and ALEC aren’t that stupid.

    When you’re talking about the NRA and ALEC, I’m not sure that intelligence per se is the issue.

  67. 67

    Can any lawyers (or any “couch” lawyers) tell what it means when they say the shot was at an “intermediate” range?

    Well, I heard one story that said Zimmerman claimed Martin was on top of him, pounding him and then Martin reached for Zimmerman’s gun.

    A shot at “intermediate” range would (I assume) prove that story to be false.

    (I haven’t seen a reference to the range in the news – I have no idea if there’s any truth to that claim. Nor am I a lawyer.)

  68. 68

    @Mr Furious:

    The way I understand the way the law is written, it doesn’t matter who started the fight or why, once you fear for your life, you are justified in using deadly force.

    I saw a blog post written by someone who claimed to be a lawyer. He said that, if you initiate an encounter, you don’t have self defense rights unless you’ve broken off the encounter and attempted to flee or de-escalate.

    So: I think you’re a friend of mine, and decide, as a prank, to scare you. You have the right to defend yourself until I am backing away, swearing I’m sorry, I don’t want to hurt you – if you continue to pursue me, even as I flee, now I can defend myself.

    This makes sense. *Is* it the law? I don’t know. But it does make sense.

    It also puts an interesting cast on Zimmerman’s story (if this is, in fact, his story – I’ve seen multiple variations now). I heard it as follows: he got out of his car, and was *going back* – i.e., retreating – when he was attacked.

    This is a careful, specific, letter-of-the-law invocation of SYG. Yes, he pursued, but he was in retreat.

    I’ll be very interested to see what the evidence says. I don’t think it’s going to support that story.

  69. 69
    El Cid says:

    Fighting never achieves anything. You only truly win when you shoot someone dead.

  70. 70
    Billy Rae Valentine says:

    @WWStBreitbartD:

    hey, troll. it is not a FACT that trayvon martin bashed zimmerman’s head on the concrete.

    it is a version of the story from zimmerman. i know it’s pointless to respond to trolls but i’m silly like that. i know you’ll respond so i’m gonna shower then check back for your talking point fresh from daily caller or biggov.

  71. 71
    Billy Rae Valentine says:

    i was thinking “this news story DOES alter things in that SOME suggested that zimmerman lied about his injuries and/or that the police did.”

    but i have so little trust in zimmerman. the night of the murder he declines to go to the hospital? but then day or two later a “family doctor” says he had 2 black eyes, a broken nose, and two scratches on his head?

    idk. still sounds about as fishy as it did the first week. just a murderer establishing his bullshet after the fact. i know it feels like a great day for the anti-al sharpton crowd and the rest of the right-wing tribe but it doesn’t change much for me.

  72. 72
    LosGatosCA says:

    Even the NRA and ALEC aren’t that stupid.

    I admire your optimism

  73. 73
    LosGatosCA says:

    @danimal:

    +1

  74. 74
    Corner Stone says:

    @Raven:

    Unless you hit someone square in the mouth it’s not that easy to cut your hand throwing a punch.

    It’s incredibly easy to break your skin when making contact with your hands.

  75. 75
    ruemara says:

    @Mnemosyne: Except if you’re black and female, then you should not Stand Your Ground and fire warning shots away from the abusive ex, you should be beaten or even killed as a good black woman should

  76. 76
    Corner Stone says:

    @Elie: You post multiple times in this thread stating he’s gonna be killed if he’s acquitted.

  77. 77
    Clime Acts says:

    Zimmerman is on tape with the 911 folks admitting he followed him, and from there, we are not sure what happened.

    Cole, you’re better than this.

    The fact is you have little idea WHAT happened that night, at any point in the incident, but it hasn’t stopped you from stirring the pot and trolling your blog for fellow lynchers.

    It’s embarrassing.

  78. 78
    CVS says:

    Even the NRA and ALEC aren’t that stupid.

    Well, actually, they are. And if Zimmerman is found innocent, there will be rioting.

  79. 79
    Mnemosyne says:

    @LongHairedWeirdo:

    He said that, if you initiate an encounter, you don’t have self defense rights unless you’ve broken off the encounter and attempted to flee or de-escalate.

    That’s the whole point of Stand Your Ground laws, though — they remove the “duty to retreat.” With the Florida law, there is NO responsibility to try and flee or de-escalate. That’s why they call it “Stand Your Ground.”

  80. 80
    Billy Rae Valentine says:

    @Clime Acts:

    it IS an established fact that Zimmerman admitted following Trayon Martin. He IS on tape responding “yes” to a dispatcher when asked “are you following him?” so Cole stated a FACT.

    then the idea that we don’t KNOW what happened next? that is up for debate, technically. there are things we know. for example, that Martin died. i’m sure Cole knows that we DO know SOME things, so most of us get what he means when he says we DON’T know. that said, what do you object to? it is unclear.

  81. 81
    Unsympathetic says:

    “were I black I think my first instinct would be to tell my kids to STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM WHITE PEOPLE”

    That’s cute. Zimmerman is hispanic, and led the protests against the white son of a Sanford policeman who beat a black guy to death. Zimmerman isn’t racist – that dog won’t hunt.

    “the police EXPLICITLY told Zimmerman not to follow Martin.” This really doesn’t matter. Seriously, ask a lawyer.

    Zimmerman’s defense stipulates to starting the fight.. that has no bearing on the shot. And by the way, the fight was in Zimmerman’s apartment complex – there was no car involved.

    Trayvon Martin is a fit boxer, he levels Zimmerman with a couple punches. Now the fight’s over.

    Martin, however, moves to felony assault when he mounts Zimmerman and begins slamming Zimmerman’s head into pavement.

    “He said that, if you initiate an encounter, you don’t have self defense rights unless you’ve broken off the encounter and attempted to flee or de-escalate.”

    You can’t flee if you’ve been mounted MMA-style, which is the only explanation for the head wounds and grass stains on the back of Zimmerman’s shirt at the scene. Stand your ground just doesn’t apply to this case.

    It’s a horrible situation, but Zimmerman will be completely acquitted.

  82. 82
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Unsympathetic:

    You can’t flee if you’ve been mounted MMA-style, which is the only explanation for the head wounds and grass stains on the back of Zimmerman’s shirt at the scene.

    You have a remarkably vivid imagination. I especially liked your claim in the other thread that Zimmerman was standing in his front yard when Martin attacked him unprovoked despite what Zimmerman said in his 911 call.

    The fact that Zimmerman will almost certainly walk free because of this remarkably fucked-up law doesn’t magically make killing an unarmed kid morally right, no matter how many fantasies you make up about how it maybe coulda mighta happened in just such a way to make it justified.

    ETA: A thought experiment for you, since you’re so fond of them: if the exact same events had occurred but Martin had killed Zimmerman in the struggle, would you be here now talking about how Martin was completely justified in killing the guy who was following him in his car and then pulled a gun on him?

  83. 83
    MattMinus says:

    In my misspent youth, I did my fair share of punching and being punched. The only times my hands got cut up by punching were when I hit the guy in the teeth, which I haven’t heard claimed here.

    Bruised swollen hands are what I’d be expecting based on Zimmerman’s story. From my experience, a cut would more likely come from a scratch while grappling. You know, like if some creepy old guy tried to grab you by the arm.

  84. 84

    Zimmerman:[I’m reporting this guy I think is on drugs and checking out houses to rob.]
    Martin: [I’m walking slowly with my hood up because I’m talking to my girlfriend on the phone and going to watch basketball when I get home.]
    Zimmerman: [He doesn’t belong here; he’s walking slow; he’s on drugs]
    Martin: [Why is this guy running at me?]

    If you’re walking on the street and someone yells “STOP”, is there some constitutional requirement that you stop?

    If a law enforcement officer sees you running down the street and yells “STOP”, is there some constitutional provision that allows the officer to shoot you if you don’t stop?

    Is there a constitutional requirement that anyone walking down the street provide personal identification to anyone who asks for it?

    How about if someone walking down the street stopped you and asked you to register your gun? Would you be OK with that?

  85. 85
    Mike Lamb says:

    @Unsympathetic: That’s an interesting variation of “I’m not racist, I have a black friend…” So you’ve got that going for you…

  86. 86
    Phoenician in a time of Romans says:

    WFTV has confirmed that autopsy results show 17-year-old Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles when he died.

    BREAKING NEWS – Nope.

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_n.....s#comments

    “Florida teenager Trayvon Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range,” according to an autopsy report reviewed Wednesday by NBC News.

    The official report, prepared by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., also found that the 17-year-old Martin had one other fresh injury – a small abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch in size – on his left ring finger below the knuckle.

    Now, this is interesting – Zimmerman claims someone smaller than him jumped him, gave him a broken nose, scalp cuts and two black eyes – and the report shows a single small abrasion on the finger below the knuckle?!??!?

    What, was Martin a Shaolin Master of Eagle Claw Kung Fu?

  87. 87

    @Mnemosyne:

    That’s the whole point of Stand Your Ground laws, though—they remove the “duty to retreat.” With the Florida law, there is NO responsibility to try and flee or de-escalate. That’s why they call it “Stand Your Ground.”

    This is *exactly* what the blog post said: Under the Florida law, *if* you initiate an encounter, the *other* person has all defense rights. You have none, because the other person may stand his or her ground.

    if this blog post was correct, if you start an encounter, and realize things are going badly, you now must retreat and attempt to de-escalate the situation before you have self-defense rights again.

    However, if you’re not the aggressor, you have no duty to retreat, at all, under any circumstances. Only the aggressor has any duty to retreat.

    So: according to this blog post, if Zimmerman accosted Martin, then:

    1) if Martin did nothing threatening – Zimmerman is guilty of a crime for shooting and killing Martin

    2) if Martin did something threatening, *before* Zimmerman tried to retreat – Zimmerman is guilty of a crime for shooting and killing Martin because he initiated the encounter – Only Martin had rights of self defense in this scenario. Finally:

    3)if Zimmerman retreated, and *then* Martin attacked, now Zimmerman has self defense rights. (And as I said, this makes me ponder Zimmerman’s story that much more carefully – it sounds like a prepared statement intended to explicitly meet the letter of the law.)

    Again, I can’t vouch for these statements of the law; I can only say I saw someone make them (claiming to be a lawyer), and assert that they do make sense. And, laws often make sense. Legislators *do* like to dot their is and cross their ts, most of the time. And, let’s face it, even if the legislature was stupid, *they* didn’t have to write the durn thing in the first place.

  88. 88

    @Unsympathetic:

    You can’t flee if you’ve been mounted MMA-style, which is the only explanation for the head wounds and grass stains on the back of Zimmerman’s shirt at the scene.

    You know – you’re right.

    I was working on my lawn, kneeling in the grass, and then I was mounted, MMA-style, and that’s the only reason I had grass stains on the knees of my jeans. It’s the only explanation!

    Oh – wait – is that the only explanation for grass stains on the back of a shirt? Grass won’t stain the back of a shirt, unless you’re mounted, MMA-style? I’ll have to tell my girlfriend that, and see what happens if I, uh, mount, you know, but not MMA-style….

    Oh, fuck it. Wit is wasted. That is *stupid*. If you want to say you *believe* Zimmerman was “mounted” because there were grass stains, fine, say that. But please don’t act like a complete fucking idiot and say it’s the only explanation.

  89. 89
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    There is a word for that.

    INSANE.

  90. 90
    Mnemosyne says:

    @LongHairedWeirdo:

    However, if you’re not the aggressor, you have no duty to retreat, at all, under any circumstances. Only the aggressor has any duty to retreat.

    Looking at the other SYG cases in Florida, though, the law doesn’t seem to take into account who initiated the fight. Either person can be labeled the “aggressor” for the purposes of the law and, frankly, it seems that the person who ends up dead or wounded is always labeled the “aggressor.”

    I mean, seriously, look at the case I linked to above. The guy talked for weeks about trying to kill his ex-wife and/or her new boyfriend and went to their house with a gun in his pocket, and yet he was able to claim immunity under SYG because, once the fight began, he was allowed to claim that the other guy was the aggressor, not him, even though he was the one who brought a gun into someone else’s house.

  91. 91
    jncc says:

    “3)if Zimmerman retreated, and then Martin attacked, now Zimmerman has self defense rights. (And as I said, this makes me ponder Zimmerman’s story that much more carefully – it sounds like a prepared statement intended to explicitly meet the letter of the law.)”

    Yes, indeed, the fact that Zimmerman’s story presents facts favorable to him can only be explained by fabrication.

    Especially since, you know, skittles.

  92. 92

    @jncc:

    JNCC! Good to see you again. I was wondering what I’d done wrong, since you hadn’t posted a whiny response to one of my comments yet. Now, having seen a baseless whine that I’m sure was made only because you’re so harshly persecuted, life seems more complete somehow.

    No, it doesn’t, I suppose. But hey, whatever.

  93. 93
    kay says:

    The abrasion on his finger doesn’t mean anything conclusive, and either does an exam by his private physician conducted a day after the incident.
    I’m not even solid on the location of the body. The victim could have moved sometime prior to death or Zimmerman could have moved the victim.
    No matter how it comes out one or the other side are going to say it was unjust, and they will be right.
    Stupid, tragic corrupt SYG laws lead to stupid, tragic corrupt results.
    But they already know that in Florida, because they have case after case already.
    They’re so captured by the NRA they’re incapable
    of protecting their citizens or conducting a proper
    investigation.
    This is what corruption looks like, finally, No one has any faith in the process, nor should they.
    It’s not fair to the victim, but it’s also not fair to the defendant.
    Process protects, both sides.

  94. 94
    kay says:

    We had a shooting here about a month ago. A 14 year old shot and killed his 15 ye old neighbor while they were waiting for the school bus.
    They picked up the 14 year old and put him in protective custody while they sorted out the facts and documented everything. No grainy video, no inexplicable delays, no private exams 24 hours after the fact, no leaks or grandstanding NRA shills.
    The 14 year old has been charged and is waiting adjudication. The gun owner, who is 35 years old and left a loaded weapon in a laundry room, has also been charged, although, sadly, it’s only a misdemeanor.
    The dead kid isn’t coming back, but at least the state didn’t turn his death into a joke.

  95. 95
    rea says:

    It’s hard to see how the bigger guy bringing a gun to a fist fight could ever contitute self-defense

  96. 96
    HeartlandLiberal says:

    Actually, yes, “Even the NRA and ALEC aren’t that stupid”, they are that stupid.

    I personally know an NRA member who lives and breathes a defense of Zimmerman shooting Martin that brooks no logic or resistance.

    He starts flailing like a madman in his chair and waving his arms about, almost frothing, when I insist on the key points Cole makes: Zimmeran followed him; Zimmerman ignored police on 911 call who told him “you don’t have to do” that, meaning don’t follow him. This guy has found a dozen contorted interpretations to insist that that was not an order from the police, so the fact the Zimmerman followed Martin anyway and shot him to death is not a problem. Then he turns around and insists that he did not follow Martin anyway.

    Seriously, these people are batsh*t crazy over what has become for them a must win case to justify shooting someone if you don’t like how they look.

    So, yes, “Even the NRA and ALEC ARE that stupid.”

  97. 97
    J R says:

    @jncc:

    I guess it’s up to me to spell out the facts about the 9 mm round. It is not a high-powered pistol round at all. The guy who shot the Pope a while back put 2 round into his abdomen without killing him, though he was badly hurt and saved by great medical care once he arrive at a hospital.

    But, yes, a wounded person can get up and travel under their own power after being shot with a 9 mm round.

    There are rounds that will kill some one, put them down almost instantly, but the 9 mm is not one of them at all.

    I’m really sorry about what happened when Zimmerman shot Trayvon, and I don’t think it was at all justified. If Trayvon attacked Zimmerman it was justified, as Trayvon was the person on the spot being stalked by a psycho, but I don’t believe he ever struck Zimmerman. That’s hoked up evidence in an attempt to protect Zimmerman from conviction in my opinion.

    But the law in Florida is severely messed up, enough so that they recently convicted a black lady for shooting at (not even wounding) her ex BF attacking her and sent her up for 20 years, while this pervert Zimmerman looks like he’s going to skate after killing a young boy.

    I’m with those who said above that no one should ever go to Florida without being legally armed to the teeth. More crazy than Arizona, at least for today.

  98. 98
    Jose Padilla says:

    1. Martin’s only injury was a single wound described as an 1/8th to 1/4 of an inch. You’d need a magnifying glass to see it. It could’ve come before the altercation or after Martin was shot and hit the ground.
    2. If Zimmerman was fighting for his life, you’d expect to see multiple scratches and abrasions on Martin’s body and especially on his hands. Martin was allegedly bashing Zimmerman’s head into the pavement and Zimmerman would’ve tried to break his grasp.
    3. If Martin hit Zimmerman hard enough to cause two black eyes, a broken nose, and bleeding from the mouth you would at a minimum expect bruising on his knuckles.
    4. Intermediate range is 6-18 inches. Given Zimmerman’s description that’s hard to imagine.

  99. 99
    jncc says:

    @LongHairedWeirdo:
    Good to see you again, too. Thank Jeebus there are people out there like you who are working really hard to uncover the conspiracy between Zimmerman and the police department. Keep up the good work.

  100. 100
    different-church-lady says:

    Silly liberal: don’t you know that self defense is only for whites? (And sorta-whites? Definitely not blacks, though…)

  101. 101
    myiq2xu says:

    There are none so blind as those who will not see.

  102. 102
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Maude:

    This isn’t the full autopsy report. It’s a leaked bit of info.
    This is in line with the report that Zimmerman had injuries.
    Something is fishy.

    Agreed. It contradicts public statements made by other parties (the mortician). I guess we’ll see.

  103. 103
    Patrick H says:

    Wow the ignorance in this thread is amazing. 9MM not a high powered pistol round? Are you crazy? Of course it is, and it can easily kill.

    Florida’s laws, including SYG (which does not apply in this case) do not give the right to murder people, just because. They have to have a legitimate fear for their life, not just what they say. Being beaten, like GZ was, can give a legitimate fear. Because you were followed, or you didn’t like somebody is not.

    GZ wasn’t stalking, he was only following. TM had more than ample opportunity to go home, but chose not to, and instead chose to confront and start beating GZ. That’s what this information shows- that GZ’s story is consistent with the physical evidence. TM would not show bruising on his hands as bruising can take 12-48 hours to show. Given that the only scratches are on his hands, that means he was beating GZ. And with all the injuries GZ sustained, which matches his account, he had a legitimate fear of imminent dangerous bodily injury.

  104. 104
    russell says:

    Zimmerman isn’t racist – that dog won’t hunt.

    Zimmerman is precisely this racist:

    black kid = trouble

    That makes him no more or less racist than probably half the population of the US.

    My point wasn’t about Zimmerman, it was about what black people can expect from non-blacks. They can expect their kids to be assumed, based on no particular evidence, to be up to no good when they’re walking home from the 7/11.

    Sufficiently so that neighborhood watch dudes will call the cops on them and follow them around while armed.

    I don’t know about you, but living with that would bug the crap out of me.

    That’s my point.

  105. 105
    Howlin Wolfe says:

    @WWStBreitbartD: You know, they have remedial classes in night school for people with poor compositional skills. People who write should take advantage of them so people can understand what the fuck they’re trying to say.
    What would St. Bitefart do? TAKE A FUCKING REMEDIAL COMPOSITION CLASS! Please get in your clown car and take your clown show outta here until you do.

  106. 106
    dsale says:

    @Unabogie:
    That’s where I’d expect it to be if he’d had some boxing lessons. Only amateurs lead with their right. Doesn’t necessarily mean anything one way or another.

  107. 107
    Jason says:

    According to:

    http://www.forensic-medecine.i.....lence.html

    In forensics there are four types of gunshot wound: Contact wound – The muzzle of the gun was applied to the skin at the time of shooting, Close Range – The muzzle of the gun was 6-8 inches away from the skin at shooting, Intermediate Range – The gun was 8 inches to 3.5 feet away, and Distant – The gun was over 3.4 feet away at the time of shooting. In the case of a fatal shooting it is often debated whether it was murder or suicide.

    Indeed difficult to imagine if the newspaper account of Zimmerman’s story is accurate. And all of this is the defense leaking like sieves of course. Consequently, if this is the best the defense can do, I’m unimpressed.

  108. 108

    @Patrick H:

    GZ wasn’t stalking, he was only following. TM had more than ample opportunity to go home, but chose not to, and instead chose to confront and start beating GZ.

    “Chose to confront” is not consistent with what I’ve heard from the reports that his call to his girlfriend got cut off as someone else confronted him. *That* is inconsistent with the initial reports that Zimmerman was walking back to his SUV, minding his own business, and was suddenly jumped by Martin. So we know that there’s a lot of bullshit flowing.

    There’s no proof that Zimmerman was “beaten” by Martin – there is only proof that Zimmerman had injuries.

    Given that the only scratches are on his hands, that means he was beating GZ.

    No, that means there are scratches on his hands. That might lend credibility to a claim that he was beating Zimmerman. It does not “mean” that he was.

  109. 109
    Ecks says:

    How to legally commit premeditated murder in Florida, in 3 easy steps:

    1) Provoke fight with intended victim

    2) Lose

    3) You are now free to murder without penalty.

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