Amendment One

The North Carolina constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage passed by a 61-39 margin last night. About half the number of voters (2.2 million) voted in this election than did in the 2008 presidential race (4.3 million). I’d suggest that something as weighty as a constitutional amendment should at least get a general election vote, but that would go against the wisdom of the founders.

North Carolina has a proud history of intolerance about marriage. The amendment banning marriage between races (via) stood for almost 100 years after its enactment in 1875.

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179 replies
  1. 1
    13th Generation says:

    This sucks. I don’t think a lot of voters understand the ramifications of this bullshiat amendment. Or maybe they do.

  2. 2
    Comrade Jake says:

    Sometimes the juggernaut of history moves slowly, but it does move. It will in NC too, and I suspect it will be a lot sooner than 100 years.

  3. 3
    Baud says:

    We’ll have a majority of states by 2020, and hopefully by then a Supreme Court that will apply equal protection to the remaining holdouts.

  4. 4
    J.W. Hamner says:

    I didn’t pay attention to this political fight at all, but somehow it was all the more depressing. Living in New England I guess I get complacent, but it’s clear we have a lot of work yet to do.

  5. 5
    Frapalinger says:

    Rednecks. What do you expect?

  6. 6
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    You can blame that on the blue dogs in the Legislature. They agreed to put it in the primary so it wouldn’t boost wingnut turnout in their districts in the general.

    This was very much an urban-vs-rural contest. I’m not sure what theoretically unintended consequences might have played well with the rural population. Publicity about any employers who talked about leaving the state if it passed?

  7. 7
    13th Generation says:

    It prohibits the recognition of ANY civil union, LGBT or otherwise. Morans.

  8. 8
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @Comrade Jake: I suspect it will be a lot sooner than 100 years

    The amendment’s sponsors have predicted it will be repealed in ten years.

  9. 9
    Gromit says:

    I’d suggest that something as weighty as a constitutional amendment should at least get a general election vote, but that would go against the wisdom of the founders.

    You would rather this be on the ballot driving turnout in November?

    I’m embarrassed for my home state.

    From the Raleigh News and Observer:

    About 250 amendment supporters crowded a ballroom at the Hilton North Raleigh for the celebration that was part standard-issue campaign victory party and part wedding reception.
    There was a cash bar, and music that included love songs. The centerpiece was a seven-tier white wedding cake, capped by a plastic heterosexual couple embracing.

    It’s not enough to fuck over NC families of the “wrong” sort, they have to taunt them as well.

  10. 10
  11. 11
    JD Rhoades says:

    Greetings From the Theocratic Republic of Carolinastan! This Is The Voice of The Resistance.Please Keep Us In Your Thoughts.

  12. 12
    13th Generation says:

    Hate to mention it, but it was also designed to drive a wedge between two core Democratic constituencies, teh gheys, and African Americans (who unfortunately were generally in favor of it).

  13. 13
    Reggie Mantle says:

    This sucks. I don’t think a lot of voters understand the ramifications of this bullshiat amendment. Or maybe they do.

    My wife was a poll worker. From the comments made to her about it, they didn’t. Many of them had never voted before–ever–didn’t even know what a primary was, they’d just been told by their preachers to come out and vote for the amendment.

  14. 14
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    The state of Jesse Helms. WTF do you expect?

  15. 15
    c u n d gulag says:

    @Gromit:
    GOP POV:
    “What fun is winning if you can’t rub the loser’s face in the dirt?

    And making them scream “uncle!” is the cherry on top.
    No, not THAT kind of ‘cherry!'”

    What the Conservatives may not know, is that Liberals will NEVER scream “uncle.”

    And when homosexuals will finally be allowed to marry, after growing acceptance, Liberals won’t have to taunt Conservatives.

    Just seeing happy gay families will be punishment enough for them.

  16. 16
    Baud says:

    @Raven: I hope that goes nowhere. We need to work to expand our footprint, not retrench.

  17. 17

    Will common law marriages no longer be legal?

  18. 18
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Gromit: That was extra-classy, huh? On the bright side, the dinosaurs continue their march to the tar pit. It’s only a matter of time. Cold comfort, but there it is.

  19. 19
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Reggie Mantle:

    they’d just been told by their preachers to come out and vote for the amendment.

    Never, ever put me into power.

    One of my first acts will be to find all these “preachers” and crucify them.

  20. 20

    @JD Rhoades:

    Greetings From the Theocratic Republic of Carolinastan! This Is The Voice of The Resistance. Please Keep Us In Your Thoughts.

    Most definitely.

    And the question of a theocracy seems very pertinent to me. It is my unscientific observation that supporters of the state enforcing the edicts of the church really don’t think they will ever end up being the minority.

  21. 21
    AxelFoley says:

    How long until President Obama or black folks in NC get blamed for this?

  22. 22
    13th Generation says:

    @linda f

    “The amendment also goes beyond state law by voiding other types of domestic unions from carrying legal status, which opponents warn could disrupt protection orders for unmarried couples.”

  23. 23
    JD Rhoades says:

    Will common law marriages no longer be legal?

    Linda, NC doesn’t recognize common law marriage.

  24. 24
    JD Rhoades says:

    @Baud:

    I hope that goes nowhere. We need to work to expand our footprint, not retrench.

    Thank you.

  25. 25
    Baud says:

    @AxelFoley: Yesterday.

  26. 26
  27. 27

    @JD Rhoades:

    NC and common law marriage:

    Really? Wow. No living in sin for them, huh?

  28. 28
    beltane says:

    @Gromit: The wedding cake thing is almost ironic when your consider the fact that young, white, working-class Americans are generally abandoning the institution of marriage altogether.

  29. 29
    JD Rhoades says:

    It is my unscientific observation that supporters of the state enforcing the edicts of the church really don’t think they will ever end up being the minority.

    They really don’t. They don’t talk to anyone but each other, they don’t watch or read anything but “approved” news (FOX is too liberal for some of them), and they sure as hell don’t read books that aren’t on their pastor’s “approved” list. it’s epistemic closure at its finest.

  30. 30
    Yevgraf says:

    It would help this if the gay activists started demonstrating commitments to racial and economic fairness instead of just acting like a bunch of aggrieved, spoiled, materialistic white boys.

    It would also help if gay activists outed all of their brothers working behind the scenes in Greater Wingnuttia – the pundits and researchers for the Wingnut Wurlitzer, the staffers at glibertarian/conservatard “think” tanks, the congressional staffers for the nuttier of conservative congressassholes.

  31. 31
    RSA says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    This was very much an urban-vs-rural contest.

    I agree, though Charlotte seems to be a slightly conservative exception. TPM has an interactive map showing how the different counties voted, and mine (which includes Raleigh) went 57% to 43% against. I think most of the college towns, even the smaller ones, went against. Driving around the area over the past few weeks, I saw dozens of No on Amendment 1 lawn signs, and I can’t remember a single For sign. I’d thought it would be closer. But there are a lot of rural counties in NC.

  32. 32

    @JD Rhoades:

    Hang in there. And join the conversation more often. :-)

    [I gotta get to work.]

  33. 33
    beltane says:

    @AxelFoley: Oh please, he and they were being blamed even before the polls closed. God forbid anyone mention all the white moderates and liberals who were not inclined to vote “yes” but who couldn’t be bothered to make the effort to vote “no”.

  34. 34
    JD Rhoades says:

    @Linda Featheringill:

    Really? Wow. No living in sin for them, huh?

    Nope.It’s actually a misdemeanor to do so. Although no one ever enforces it, except the civil courts who’ve used it as a pretext for taking custody away from parents “cohabiting” with their new SO. That’s become a lot less common, but when I started practicing, it was routine.

  35. 35
    middlewest says:

    Just a reminder, Minnesota’s still in play.

  36. 36
    Betty Cracker says:

    @AxelFoley: They’re on it.

  37. 37
    Raven says:

    @JD Rhoades: Un-fucking believable. I have a footprint for you.

  38. 38
    Beergoggles says:

    Like this was surprising. We’ve got Maine coming in the general that we actually have a chance of winning..

  39. 39
    Baud says:

    @Beergoggles: Maryland too.

  40. 40
    Yevgraf says:

    How long until President Obama or black folks in NC get blamed for this?

    An interesting phenomenon I’ve observed – gay events in my locality appear to be about as racially and economically diverse as a meeting of Young Republicans. Outside of a Klavern, you’d be hard pressed to find an event that is whiter. There does seem to be some exclusion and antipathy emanating from the organized gay community.

  41. 41
    amk says:

    @Baud: Yesterday, one minute after the polls closed.The left sux.

  42. 42
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    have any of these amendments ever been defeated?

  43. 43
    scav says:

    Ain’t they jist downright cute ‘n’ cuddlesome in their little pyrrhic parades of ol’ time religion. The tourist brochures write themselves. Wrong then, Wrong again: A Proud Local Tradition.

  44. 44
    KCinDC says:

    See all the dark red in this map? If you’re planning to boycott North Carolina, there are a whole of other states to boycott. I think engagement is going to be a better approach.

  45. 45
    ornery_curmudgeon says:

    So it’s factual knowledge that religious organizations and their pastors are engaging in political conduct.

    Why do they get to keep their tax-exempt status?

  46. 46
    ned says:

    But just wait until teh gheys get their hands on that unlimited corporate cash!

    VICTORY!

    /moran

  47. 47
    Baud says:

    @arguingwithsignposts: Not sure. Maybe once. But we’re only now getting to the point that gay marriage is a 50-50 proposition nationwide. The victories will come.

  48. 48
    Yevgraf says:

    @KCinDC:

    See all the dark red in this map? If you’re planning to boycott North Carolina, there are a whole of other states to boycott. I think engagement is going to be a better approach.

    When push comes to shove, gay activists will be happy to throw progressive economic, racial and gender fairness under the bus for some sweet, sweet tax cuts and sinecures for their brothers in Greater Wingnuttia.

    My prediction is that the squeals for boycotts and counterproductive actions will get louder. Hell, we might even see some new theatrics from Act-Up.

  49. 49
    amk says:

    Forget NC. What about the WI turnout ? Dems could barely edge the thugs by 25 K. So how are they gonna oust walker boy with that kinda turnout next month?

  50. 50
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @Linda Featheringill: People live in sin here all the time. In the cities. I suspect it’s one of the reasons for the urban/rural split in the votes.

    @AxelFoley: How long until President Obama or black folks in NC get blamed for this?

    This is pure speculation, but I suspect that the black community provided a lot of the against votes. I certainly found the blacks I talked to about the side effects for straight couples were much more concerned about them. Whites tended to retreat into slut-shaming.

  51. 51
    Raven says:

    @KCinDC: And they are all hosting the Democratic Convention?

  52. 52
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    @Baud: Part of the question is, how often can these amendments come up? Can people repeal this one in NC the next go round?

  53. 53
    Raven says:

    @Yevgraf: Better to use gentle persuasion and talk them into changing their minds, right?

  54. 54

    You may take comfort from the fact that the Federal Fourteenth Amendment wasn’t also on the ballot.

    I’m fairly sure that would go down to defeat.

  55. 55
    Yevgraf says:

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    Part of the question is, how often can these amendments come up? Can people repeal this one in NC the next go round?

    In most states, they can come up frequently, but there is a high bar to even getting them on the ballot.

    The reason why they’re interfering with the organic law of their governing charters is to make it nearly impossible for future legislative majorities to upend today’s social order without amending the constitution first. Think of it as a 6 inch tall, square speed bump, something that damages your car to cross.

  56. 56
    Yevgraf says:

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    Part of the question is, how often can these amendments come up? Can people repeal this one in NC the next go round?

    In most states, they can come up frequently, but there is a high bar to even getting them on the ballot.

    The reason why they’re interfering with the organic law of their governing charters is to make it nearly impossible for future legislative majorities to upend today’s social order without amending the constitution first. Think of it as a 6 inch tall, square speed bump, something that damages your car to cross.

  57. 57
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @RSA: Mecklenburg County (Charlotte) went against, just barely. The other counties that went against are Wake (Raleigh), Durham (Durham), Orange (Chapel Hill), Buncombe (Asheville) and Watauga (Boone). Guilford (Greensboro) and New Hanover (Wilmington) went 50/50.

    Something that often surprises people more accustomed to urban areas in the northeast and in SoCal is that NC has large rural areas even in our nominally urban counties. I’m not surprised by the results at all.

    My husband’s been on business trips twice since this started heating up, and both times he’s remarked on how he never saw any Against signs in the rural counties he drove through.

  58. 58
    Comrade Scrutinizer says:

    @arguingwithsignposts: Generally amendments are harder to repeal than statutes, which is why the pigfuckers pushed this shit in NC when there was already an anti-everything not sanctioned by the xtians statute on the books. An amendment requires a super-majority in the legislature and a referendum. In the states where anti-everything but amendments have been passed, that’s why. It will probably require a successful equal protection ruling from the Supreme Court to undo all this shit, just as with the miscegnation laws earlier.

  59. 59
    Betsy says:

    @Linda Featheringill: Like most states, North Carolina does not have common-law marriage. You may be thinking of South Carolina.

  60. 60
    Betsy says:

    There’s got to be a bit of a hollow victory in having prevented all the loving, committed gay couples from entering into permanent commitments, whereas wild, no-strings-attached sodomy continues unabated and legal as ever in flophouses, McMansions, airport restrooms, and parish residences across the state.

  61. 61
    Kay says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    I always think the 4th amendment would go down in flames. Imagine the ads.

    “What are they hiding?” Dark tones, scary music. “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire”.

  62. 62
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @Yevgraf: In most states, they can come up frequently, but there is a high bar to even getting them on the ballot.

    Yep. We’ll have to get the current Legislature replaced first, and then get a repeal ballot passed by the new group. That will require a supermajority in the Legislature.

  63. 63
    Mark B says:

    I have a hard time understanding why some people think that legally making sure people don’t have full rights as a citizen is a good idea? I know that the right wingers hate gay people, but don’t they understand if you can take away the rights of some, then your rights can also be taken away? Obviously, they’re too stupid to figure this out.

  64. 64
    satby says:

    @Mark B:

    but don’t they understand if you can take away the rights of some, then your rights can also be taken away?

    They think that THEY are the majority and will never be a minority, and that the Golden Rule is “Do unto others before they do unto you”. You know, like Jesus always said.

  65. 65
    merrinc says:

    @RSA:

    I agree, though Charlotte seems to be a slightly conservative exception.

    How the hell do you figure? Mecklenburg county was one of 7 that voted AGAINST. Obama also swept Meck in 2008. Whereas in Raleigh, you people let the fucking Tea Party take over your Board of Education in 2010.

  66. 66
    rlrr says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    So the amendment’s sponsors pretty much admitted they’re wasting everyone’s time.

  67. 67
    RalfW says:

    @Yevgraf:

    And it took 37 minutes to start blaming the victims.

    What gives you the holy ground to start issuing blanket statements about what gay people need to do? How dare you.

    I know a lot of LGBT people in Minnesota who are working on racial and economic justice. I’m one of them. Racial justice has been a core component of NGLTF’s Creating Change, which draws 1,000+ activists each year, many of them young and not as white as you might image the movement to be. And even if we didn’t, even if we weren’t as diverse as you pontificate that we need to be, we’d what – deserve to be treated like shit?

    Is that what you’re saying?

    Even last night there were people post-morteming the N.C. campaign and saying how it was flawed. As if the RW juggernaut hasn’t steamrolled all sorts of despised classes of people. Like, say, liberals. And African Americans. And immigrants.

    I’m glad there are a lot of BJers who have shown some compassion and anger. Makes me realize that yevgraf is an exception around here. You’ve distinguished yourself for this one, and that’s not a good thing.

  68. 68
    ericblair says:

    @satby:

    They think that THEY are the majority and will never be a minority, and that the Golden Rule is “Do unto others before they do unto you”. You know, like Jesus always said.

    True, but they’re also the Persecuted Christian Minority in this country, so no tactic is too extreme in their existential struggle. When you’re arguing with people who simultaneously believe they’re the permanent, dominant power in the country and an endangered persecuted minority, you’ve got a bit of an uphill struggle with logical reasoning.

  69. 69
    lamh35 says:

    @Raven: that might just be the dumbest damn thing I’ve ever heard. First of all, if you look at the number the city in which the DNC Convention will be held overwhelmingly voted against the Ammemdment. Secondly, the convention is 3 freakin’ month’s away, logistically is doesn’t make any goddamn sense to move the Convention. Thirdly, there were/are people who opposed this ammentdment ya know, so let’s right them off, how is that supposed to work towards that 50 state strategy people are so fond of. Fourth, the GOP convention is looking to be a real fiasco thanks to Paul and the overwhelming dislike of Romney. Let’s go ahead and make the story about the Dems movign their convention and putting togther some hastily thought up last minute crapfest. The places have already been booked, the security is as we speak being finalized and the people of Charlotte (the county of which overwhelming voted against the ammendment) who are already counting on the dollars that this will pull into there city can go cry bricks then?

    Anyone signing that petition are being complete idiots.

  70. 70
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    I have an idea: Why don’t we take swipes at each other. Is Loki around anywhere?

  71. 71
    lamh35 says:

    I’ve been discussing on twitter just how “Inaccurate” these gay marriage polls have been lately. I think there is a “gay Bradley” effect going on with the polls because for all the increased acceptance, ALL BUT ONE was passed. Even over the phone, people don’t want to come off as homophobic.

    Something is not right and the polls are giving people false satisfaction that just by twitting about it or posting on FB about a subject means that there is no need for “boots on the ground”. The lesson learned from CA Prop 8 was ignored again…GROUNDGAME IS KEY

    When voters say they aren’t sure if voting yes mean no or does no mean yes, that is a problem with the ground game.

    the meme is that if Obama came out for gay marriage then he’d gain youth support. I call BS, yeah, maybe it would increase support, but support without ya know actually getting out to the pols and voitng don’t mean shit. youth support without actual voting mean bupkis! Besides, if marriage equality was as important to the youth as has been reported and used by proponents to say why Obama NEEDS to come out now, then a statement from Obama wouldn’t be needed. If you REALLY care about an issue YOU GO OUT TO VOTE ON IT, when it’s on the ballot…period

  72. 72
    lamh35 says:

    the idea that Black voters were the cause for Prop 8’s passage has been debunked by many people more willing than I am to get into at this point.
    The fact that this persists is either due to people’s need for some scapegoat other than the fact that the grounds game for Prop 8 or this amendment in NC was targeted at the wrong people. Black churches, neighborhoods, universities, etc saw neither hide nor hair of the organizers.

    This deep seated idea that it’s the Blacks and Hispanic voters holding back gay rights is ridiculous and has got to stop especially within the liberal community. All it does is lead to self-fulfilling prophecies, like “blacks and hispanics are against gay marriage, so why make an effort to even target these voters”. You will miss the water for the trees cause guess what, there are more Blacks and Hispanice than you think who are perfectly fine with gay marriage.

    Also, please, tell me how a group of people who are less than 15-20% of a state registered voters (and thanks to GOP obstruction are being disenfranchised daily) are always the cause of these amendments passing, the answer, they are not, a whole lot of white people voted overwhelmingly in support of these amendments too, but somehow it’s always on the backs of Black churches and religious-minded Hispanic when they pass let’s forget about white evagelicals and in case of Prop 8 the Mormon church which poured tons and tons of money into adverts for their side.

  73. 73
    Raven says:

    @lamh35: Yea, you’re right, buckle to these motherfuckers. Should have never moved the superbowl from Phoenix because Arizona wouldn’t approve of some guys birthday being a holiday.

  74. 74
    Steve says:

    I can’t quite figure out whether we are headed for a referendum on marriage equality here in NJ. I sure hope we’re not still first in line when that day comes around – although I’ll be happy to make us the first to vote for equality if we are.

  75. 75
    crazy c says:

    Is it bad that right now the next time one of those nice “christian” folks tells me to “have a blessed day”, I want to respond “blow it out your ass, you bigoted fuck”.

    I guess I’m glad my county voted against, but the map of the results by county is just depressing.

  76. 76
    Yevgraf says:

    An interesting set of factoids for gay marriage activists:

    1. I understand your claims of grand natural rights, however, the general public doesn’t as a matter of acculturation. Fifteen years ago, the current set of results was inconceivable; even ten years ago, highly unlikely. Don’t act so put upon and beleaguered over this result – it comes off as drama queen-y, and nobody whose support you need likes that.

    2. Quit pretending that this is tyrannical and oppressive, and that your cause is something on a par with the Civil Rights Movement. As of now, your number is in the 5-10 percent range, and you aren’t even of one mind on it. Contrast that with the civil rights movement, which combatted outright denial of civil and economic participation to population which made up anywhere from 25 to 40 percent of the population of the affected states – and involved a hell of a lot of violence and complacency from the forces of the status quo. When you’ve got full voting rights, are of the favored racial and gender demographic and are economically better off than the population as a whole, it is tough to inspire sympathy.

  77. 77
    Peter says:

    @RalfW: He does this every time gay marriage comes up. It never stops being disgusting.

  78. 78
    NCSteve says:

    @Raven: Yeah, that’ll help. Because it’s totally possible to just up and change the location of a party convention at the last minute and the resulting strife and disruption and upheaval wouldn’t have the slightest impact on the electorate’s perception of the party’s fitness to govern. No more than it did in 1968. And by all means, lets do everything possible to “punish” North Carolina by throwing its very winnable electoral votes onto well-known gay rights activist Millard Ronmore’s pile.

    Fee-fee politics are self-defeating.

  79. 79
    Raven says:

    @NCSteve: Hey, I have an idea. Don’t sign the motherfucking petition if you don’t want to.

  80. 80
    Ben Cisco says:

    Mecklenburg’s (Charlotte) tally was 50.5 against, 49.5 for.

  81. 81
    mai naem says:

    I have to say that the strategy of not having this in the general is sound strategy. Just remember that’s what Rove did in 04 with all the gay marriage amendments. The one positive about this crap,the Wisconsin stuff, the Indiana election and any other extra little election is that the wingnuts are having to spend money and energy in places they weren’t counting on. It’s a a pity Hatch didn’t lose, would have been nice to see the Republicans have to spend money in Utah.

  82. 82
    NCSteve says:

    @crazy c: Yes. Yes it is. It’s bad because a) you have no idea whether a person who professes to be a Christian is, in fact, anti-gay and b) you’re descending into the same kind of prejudice (i.e. you’re prejudging) and tribalism that the Republicans have been exploiting to win stuff like this for decades.

  83. 83
    lamh35 says:

    @Raven: so then you have no answer on the merits of what I said then. you’re letting your anger talk and that’s fine, but it’s still stupid bullshit which is why you didn’t comment on the merits of what I said.

    BTW, How’s that boycotting of California after the passage of Prop 8 going? Oh wait, no one advocated that did they.

  84. 84
    RalfW says:

    @ornery_curmudgeon:

    …pastors are engaging in political conduct. Why do they get to keep their tax-exempt status?

    Well, it’s legal. I’m a faith organizer for progressive religious folks. We’re just 20 years behind the religious right.

    It is forbidden for churches and other non-profits to be partisan. But issue advocacy is OK, particularly if the issues relate to the mission. Sad to say, “protecting” marriage fits the mission of conservative faith communities.

    If I have a critique of progressive faith communities – my own UUs included – it is that we looked at the religious right a generation ago and went “eghad” and then trotted off to our Sierra Club meetings and precinct caucuses and though that would be enough.

    We who are religiously liberal have ceded the public commons for too long. That is changing, but we’re late to the party. (Note: religious liberalism as in not being fundamentalists religiously. I know Republican and Libertarian religious liberals. This is faith not politics so the wording is not ideal but it’s how UUs at least talk about our non-creedal, open faith. The UCCs say “God is still speaking,” which is a similar notion. OK, back to my main idea.)

    You can see that religious progressives abandoned the public commons when lots of folks say “screw all the churches” type things. That tells us we’ve not been public in challenging conservative faith leaders as peers and co-religionists.

    Not surprisingly, of course, the media has been slow as a constipated turd in seeing the emergence of organized religious liberals.

  85. 85
    The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik says:

    @Comrade Scrutinizer:
    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    This is why my prospects for the future remain so absurdly dim. The GOP are gaming this all out so their bullshit remains on the books for decades to come, and probably longer if they can continue their stupidly effective tactic of ‘obstruct as a monolith, then blame our opponents for the results of inaction!’ And with the current Supremes? HAH. Fat chance of them overturning jack shit if it’s perceived to help Democrats in any way. And the sad fact of the matter is, the best we can do for an Obama second term in respects to the Court is…well, hold court.

    The next decade is going to be abysmal, just how the GOP wants it, because it means they’ll keep winning these bullshit battles all day every day.

  86. 86
    lamh35 says:

    By the number, ya know facts:

    First, there were 15 counties with turnout of 40% or higher. 10 of them went for John McCain in 08; 5 for Obama. Of the ten that went for McCain in ’08, ALL of them voted FOR the ban. All of them were heavily white, ranging from 85%-98% white, with 9 of the 10 counties being 90% or higher white. Incidentally, the county with the highest turnout by proportion in the entire state was Mitchell county – (50-60% turnout), which is 98% white and went HEAVILY for John McCain (71%) in 08

    http://results.enr.clarityelec.....=425000010

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/p.....008/nc.htm

  87. 87
    Steve says:

    @Yevgraf: I don’t know whether you think you’re dispensing hard truths, but in reality you’re just trolling.

  88. 88
    lamh35 says:

    Of the five “high” turnout counties that went for Obama in ’08, THREE of them voted AGAINST the ban. They ranged from 14-21% black. The two Obama ’08 counties that voted FOR the ban were 35% and 36% percent black. They were Bladen and Hyde counties

    Total number of votes cast in entire state was 2,135,740. Of that total, 1,303,952 or ~ 61% were FOR the ban. Of the votes that were FOR the ban, 909 came from Hyde county, and 7412 came from Bladen county. Assuming ALL the black people in both counties showed up and voted for the ban, that would yield 318 “black” votes from Hyde county and 2,668 from Bladen county. So the heaviest black turnout in these two counties would yield a total of 2,986 votes (which is an overestimate, since I’m assuming that 100% blacks showed up).

    http://results.enr.clarityelec.....=425000010

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/p.....008/nc.htm

  89. 89
    Raven says:

    @lamh35: You’re throwing stupid around quite a bit. I suggest you back the fuck off.

  90. 90
    RalfW says:

    @Yevgraf:

    Again, your trolling this morning is vile. It is rank with ignorance about what real gay activists are doing every damn day in the trenches of the conservative war on people.

  91. 91
    merrinc says:

    @lamh35:

    This deep seated idea that it’s the Blacks and Hispanic voters holding back gay rights is ridiculous and has got to stop especially within the liberal community.

    The Rev. Dr. William Barber of the NC NAACP was one of the first on board with the Against Amendment One side and worked tirelessly for its defeat. It was white rednecks and white evangelical churches who chose to write discrimination into our constitution.

  92. 92
    lamh35 says:

    @NCSteve: forget about it NCSteve. you and your backwards NC brethren can go to hell. It’s soo obvious that all North Carolinians are bigotted homophobes…obviously.(/snark)

  93. 93
    flukebucket says:

    That TPM interactive map is lots of fun. I saw that Graham County was 90% for and 10% against. Extreme western North Carolina is one of the most beautiful places in this country but most of the natives can be scary as hell. I am talking about burn your house and fuck up your car scary. Graham County is jam packed full of church going psychopaths. When they start talking politics do not fuck with them. You are not going to reason with them and you will not change one mind. While traveling through Graham County always remember that discretion is always the better part of valor and better a live dog than a dead lion, etc.

  94. 94
    beergoggles says:

    @Baud: Ah yes, I’d forgotten about that. Gah, I need to find $$ to donate to that as well. Been saving my cash for the battles that I think we can win.

  95. 95
    Ben Cisco says:

    Damn, it’s like the Talivangelicals not only got what they wanted at the ballot box, but “divide and conquer” among the left again too. Fuck.

  96. 96
    Yevgraf says:

    @RalfW:

    Racial justice has been a core component of NGLTF’s Creating Change, which draws 1,000+ activists each year, many of them young and not as white as you might image the movement to be.

    I never heard of it before you mentioned it. A quick google revealed a website with about a dozen or so reports spaced over five years or so, all of them focused on gay issues. Where’s all this economic and gender populism? And where’s the crowd photos? I’d think that an event attended by that many would include crowd photos.

    And even if we didn’t, even if we weren’t as diverse as you pontificate that we need to be, we’d what – deserve to be treated like shit?

    So which is it – are you diverse, or not. Why the qualifier?

    As for the “treated like shit” line, I’d say that it should be evident that your movement needs to deal with the conservative/libertarian ratfuckers that you’ve got among your number out here in so many places, organizations and congressional staffs. Once you’ve done that and demonstrated that you can play well with others, you might start getting your prevailing image changed for the better.

    Like it or not, Act-Up screwed you up. Flamboyance in pride parades screwed you up. Closet case hypocrisy screwed you up. The perception is that y’all are just a bunch of selfish, well-off white boys that don’t need no help.

  97. 97
    lamh35 says:

    @merrinc: The NAACP was all against the Ammendment and also Prop 8 but it’s too convenient to scapegoat a whole swath of people

  98. 98
    Mike in NC says:

    Too bad about this bigoted amendment passing. It was definitely a rural-vs-urban issue, plus I didn’t see a single person near my polling place under the age of 60. Once again, the old folks made the difference.

    I took some consolation that the war criminal running for the GOP House nomination lost his primary bid to a protege of Jesse Helms (!) by 3000 votes. That turd will lose big to the incumbent Blue Dog in November.

  99. 99

    @RalfW: Not surprisingly, of course, the media has been slow as a constipated turd in seeing the emergence of organized religious liberals.

    Their impact will be limited — they’re probably not numerous enough, and definitely not crazy enough. F=MA is just as good in politics as it is in physics. There may be a high M for organized religious liberals, but can they bring the A?

    Because the Talibangelicals certainly can.

  100. 100
    lamh35 says:

    @Ben Cisco: naw it’s Obama’s fault haven’t you heard. If he had just come out for gay marriage, then NC Ammendment woulda never happened (let’s forget about all the polls that showed that it would)

  101. 101
    RalfW says:

    I suppose the Colorado attempt to get civil unions recognized this year is not widely known, but there was important, and bad, news on that front last night.

    The GOP Speaker squashed the bill, in fact they Republican leadership tossed 30 other bills in the trash to avoid having to have a floor vote on civil unions. There was bipartisan support for the bill, just not from leadership.

    So any principled, moderate Republicans (?!) out there who say “I support civil unions, it’s just marriage I’m not comfy with” – hey, your party said tough shit last night.

    I know the GOP is strategy-free when it comes to having the slightest notion of future demographics or minority outreach, but they could have secured an amazing contrast and built serious inroads into reclaiming disaffected moderates if on the same day the GOP had both orchestrated the NC vote and passed a state civil unions bill.

    I know, fantasy. And the religious right would have gone apeshit (civil unions are a highly lubricated slope!) But it could have been a masterstroke of optics towards moderation.

    There is no moderation, of course, in the current GOP. Jihad is all they’ve got.

  102. 102
    lamh35 says:

    @Mike in NC: no no Mike, it’s because all you NC are homophobic bigots. that’s why the boycott of NC will commence soon. You guys are no better than Arizona don’tcha know.

    Seriously though, I do know alot of people in NC who are just as bummed about Ammendment 1 passing who went out and voted. Those people don’t deserve to be lumped into this hatred that is spewing for the pro-Ammendment 1 group who won. That is all I’ve been trying to get people to realize since last night, but I get that the defeat is still raw in people minds.
    ETA: @RalfW: Is it time to add Colorado to the list of states to boycott along with NC

  103. 103
    The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik says:

    @lamh35:

    The problem isn’t race. It’s religion. The various Churches browbeating parishioners and members to vote against the Gays because Jesus hates ’em and giving them ground means you hate God.

    @RalfW:

    There is no moderation, of course, in the current GOP. Jihad is all they’ve got.

    It’s all they need. They get to pull this shit because they can, and there’s almost zero recourse to stop them anymore. They fucking own the country state-level in ways that will be felt for decades.

  104. 104
    RalfW says:

    @Yevgraf:

    Good lord. The ignorance, it hurts.

    That you’ve never heard of NGLTF or Creating Change makes my point for me. You know jack shit about the actual LGBT movement, but that doesn’t stop you from stereotyping viciously.

    On other topics, you’re insightful. On this, your butthurt is epic. Suggests there’s some work for you to do, buddy.

  105. 105
    gbear says:

    @RalfW: Thanks for your thoughtful comment. My first reaction was to want to ask Yevgraf why he’s always such a dick on gay issues. He’s stunk up a number of threads blathering about his narrow view of the GLBT community (especially it’s organizatons) as more WASPy that WASPs. His consistent tunnel vision of the GLBT community is getting really old.

  106. 106
    NCSteve says:

    @13th Generation: I guarantee you that every single unmarried straight with a live-in boy/girlfriend who voted for this–and trust me when I tell you there were many, many, many like that in the voting queues–knew not what they did.

  107. 107
    Peter says:

    Yes, the problem the gay community faces certainly is that it hasn’t done enough outing of gay conservatives, not that they face systemic discrimination.

  108. 108
    NCSteve says:

    @Linda Featheringill: Never were in North Carolina. That’s a South Carolina thing.

  109. 109
    RSA says:

    @merrinc:

    How the hell do you figure? Mecklenburg county was one of 7 that voted AGAINST. Obama also swept Meck in 2008.

    I was looking at the TPM map, which at the time had Mecklenburg slightly in favor. (The map says that still only 38% of precincts have been counted, which I didn’t notice.)

    Oh, and Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism, thanks for the pro breakdown.

  110. 110

    @NCSteve: Ex HuffPo:

    And Public Policy Polling includes a fun fact about that portion of voters who “weren’t sure what it did”: Among “voters who admit they don’t actually know what the amendment does … it leads by a 64-28 margin.”

  111. 111
    NCSteve says:

    @Raven: Actually, I wasn’t trying to persuade you. I was using the rhetorical device of a reply to point out reasons why I think others shouldn’t sign it. You are, of course, free to do the same. Might even be more helpful to your cause than validating my point about the self-defeating nature of fee fee politics.

  112. 112
    jibeaux says:

    It’s depressing as all hell, but very much an urban-rural and educated-uneducated divide. The map of the places that voted against are basically the places where it’s safe to crack a book in public without getting weird stares.

    And what Mike said, the average voting age was way too high. Young people needed to get their asses out, and not enough of them did.

    But none of it was particularly outside the norm nationally, and of course it doesn’t make any sense. You poll NC or the nation, and you’ll get a slight majority you say they’re in favor of either same sex marriage or same sex civil unions. But the voting just never seems to be able to fulfill the promise of those surveys. I don’t know whether its turnout, or misinformation, or “well, I meant someday. Not, you know, tomorrow.” or what the fuck it is, but that’s a common theme.

    We’re not all hicks and rednecks, and I for one am in for as long as it takes.

  113. 113
    Roger Moore says:

    @Mark B:

    I know that the right wingers hate gay people, but don’t they understand if you can take away the rights of some, then your rights can also be taken away?

    No, not really. They think they’re always going to be in the majority, so they’ll be the ones taking other people’s rights away, not the ones having their rights taken away. And, of course, they can ensure they stay in a political majority even if they aren’t always a demographic majority by attacking voting rights for those other people.

  114. 114
    crazy c says:

    @NCSteve: When I’ve seen the reaction to someone wearing a pride band, or to two guys holding hands, and the fact that they react completely differently to me because I look “normal” to them, I’m not prejudging anything.

    I have met some of the friendliest and just downright good people I know in NC, but I can’t stand the two-faced bullshit that comes out way too often around here.

  115. 115

    @jibeaux:

    . But the voting just never seems to be able to fulfill the promise of those surveys.

    F=MA. An enraged and engaged minority rolls an apathetic or detached majority all the time in politics.

  116. 116
    themann1086 says:

    Top headline on my Yahoo! Mail “What’s New” tab: “Will gay marriage haunt Obama in November?”

    Sigh.

  117. 117
    chris says:

    I live in a rural–though heavily democratic county in NC. (Robeson..high concentration of Native American and Black people) And it voted hugely for the amendment. 5000 for and 700 against. The churches went all out on this. I know very educated and otherwise solid democratic voters who have been crowing on facebook about this..and how disappointed they are in their liberal friends for supporting it.

  118. 118
    Ben Cisco says:

    @themann1086: Well, to be fair, they have a macro for that headline – only the subject need be changed on any given day.

  119. 119
    jibeaux says:

    @chris: Yeah, it’s an educational divide as well as rural/urban.

  120. 120
    Lex says:

    @Gromit:

    It’s not enough to fuck over NC families of the “wrong” sort, they have to taunt them as well.

    No politician in North Carolina ever lost by overestimating the appetite of the voters for tax cuts and hippie-punching. The fact that the amendment bans all civil unions (including some existing arrangements under which dependents of some local-government employees get benefits like health insurance) is a feature, not a bug.

    And this was an incredibly urban-rural split. In my county, Guilford, where the cities of Greensboro and High Point are, the precincts where Amendment 1 failed correspond almost exactly to the city limits of Greensboro and central High Point. Countywide, A1 carried by 68 votes out of 115,000-plus cast.

    One last thought: This is is a county eight colleges and universities, plus a ninth, out-of-county university’s law school, within its boundaries. The primary took place the Tuesday after most students headed home, and the turnout maps showed it. I don’t know about statewide, but I’m confident that if this measure had been on the ballot in November instead of May, the outcome in this county would have been very different. And with an Obama landslide in November (I’m not predicting one, just saying “if”), A1 probably would have failed statewide.

  121. 121
    celticdragonchick says:

    @AxelFoley:

    The NAACP and a very vocal swath of African American preachers were against Amendment One, and got publicity in local papers. The idiot woman (and wife of the amendment author) who talked about the necessity of saving the “caucasion race” did not help her side vis a vis African Americans.

    (“race” really bugs me in a biological sense since it does not actually exist in those terms…we are all the same race, obviously, but then again, this is North Carolina, home of Virginia Fox)

  122. 122
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    It’s hard to pull people to the left when their knuckles keep dragging and hanging up on shit.

    Damned troglodytes.

  123. 123
    Steve says:

    The rural communities are not going to change. First, you of course have the strong religious and evangelical element, which only seems to be growing in influence. Second, unlike the experience of the rest of America, the rural communities are not gradually getting to know that gay couple next door who are just like you and me. By and large, gay people in these communities tend to remain closeted and to get out at the earliest opportunity. So there’s always going to be a retrogressive element on this issue.

  124. 124
    celticdragonchick says:

    I know this is going to get some pushback here, but I am actually going to look at getting a sidearm and a CCW here in NC. The volume here has been dialed up pretty high (just look at that video of a wingnut shooting at a neighbors sign) and I am a trans woman (still married, supposedly) to my wife. Both of us have been stalked and publicly harassed (two Baptist ministers cornered my wife at her place of employment and she had to call for the manager to make them leave, I have twice been threatened with physical harm in public by groups of young men and had to flee in fear of my life on the second occasion).

    I really do feel that I and my family may be in physical jeopardy at some point…and if our vehicle is not very close at hand, then we will not be able to get away from somebody who wants to make a personal statement about our marriage with their fists…or worse. I am disabled due to degenerative disc disease and she has cerebral palsey.

    I am definitely not George Zimmermann. I do not go looking for trouble and I am quite content to retreat if at all possible. However, in that second confrontation I mentioned, I was only able to retreat because the drunk young frat boys let me retreat. If they wanted to beat the shit out me or kill me as they threatened, I could not have gotten away. I cannot allow my family’s safty to entirely depend on the other party being willing to let us all go. That means carrying pepper spray at the very least and carrying a gun quite possibly. I am not at all optimistic that thugs are going to leave up alone at this point.

  125. 125
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Lex:

    I live right here in Guilford County also. I just graduated from Guilford College and we live in the Fisher Park neighborhood next to downtown. Every other home here had a ‘No on Amendment One’ sign.

  126. 126
    4tehlulz says:

    @chris: WHOOPS REad the wrong column. Sorry about that.

  127. 127
    celticdragonchick says:

    I seem to have a comment lost in moderation…

  128. 128
    OzoneR says:

    @chris:

    I know very educated and otherwise solid democratic voters who have been crowing on facebook about this..and how disappointed they are in their liberal friends for supporting it.

    I’m sure they’ll change their mind if Obama supports it.

  129. 129
    jprfrog says:

    @JD Rhoades: I get the impression (which I can’t shake) that these folks actually see the Devil as more real than God or even Jesus. They seem to fear him (Satan) obsessively, seeing (or imagining) him everywhere, lurking around every corner, hiding under every bed. Anyone who disagrees with them is his agent, and his entry is whatever is pleasurable. God (or whatever) save us if they ever get into a position to exert control over the rest of us.

    I sometimes wondered if my Jewish mother’s operating principle was “if it feels good, it can’t be good for you”. With these people, I’m quite sure of it.

  130. 130
    chris says:

    @OzoneR: I dunno..There was alot of Hillary butthurt here. They got over it..and they arent going to vote for R-Money..but it is disappointing.

  131. 131
    gaz says:

    Amendment One stands as a shining example of “the tyranny of the majority”.

    If we put desegregation, miscegenation laws etc up to popular vote we’d be back to Jim Crow in a New York minute.

    People by and large, are uncivilized, tribal bastards.

  132. 132
    AxelFoley says:

    And how does something like this get on the ballot for people to vote on?

    If black folks had to rely on white people voting to end Jim Crow…well, we know that Jim Crow wouldn’t have ended in the 1960s.

    Edit: I see gaz basically beat me to it.

  133. 133
    gaz says:

    @AxelFoley: no worries. it bears repeating.

    cheers =)

    ETA: not only that, props for making the question about how it came to popular vote in the first place more explicit. It’s a very good question. Maybe the most important.

  134. 134
    WereBear says:

    @jprfrog: You can’t shake it because that is exactly how they are.

    When I was in that culture, we all lived the Jonathan Edwards sermon, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. We were constantly dangled over that Lake o’ Fire, and while we sorely afraid of screwing up ourselves, someone else screwing up will also reflect badly on us; our relatives, our friends, even fellow churchgoers.

    This is why the outside world must be hammered free of bad influences, even as the flock is forbidden to go there. Because you never know when that trapdoor is going to be sprung.

  135. 135
    Cacti says:

    @lamh35:

    I’ve been discussing on twitter just how “Inaccurate” these gay marriage polls have been lately. I think there is a “gay Bradley” effect going on with the polls because for all the increased acceptance, ALL BUT ONE was passed. Even over the phone, people don’t want to come off as homophobic.

    I think that’s part of it, by I also think it has to do with enthusiasm of supporters vs. opponents.

    A lot of the support is of the soft variety, that is, “not opposed to it in principle,” but unlikely to go out of their way to vote in favor of it. The opposition, on the other hand, considers it an affront to God and would crawl over broken glass to vote against it.

  136. 136
    Mnemosyne says:

    @jibeaux:

    You poll NC or the nation, and you’ll get a slight majority you say they’re in favor of either same sex marriage or same sex civil unions. But the voting just never seems to be able to fulfill the promise of those surveys.

    I can’t help wondering if lamh35 is right and there’s some kind of “gay Bradley Effect” where people are unwilling to say anti-gay things to pollsters but vote against gay rights when they’re in the privacy of the polling booth.

    Also, speaking from California, there’s a reason why the NOM-type people write their initiatives in such a way that you have to vote “no” to allow gay marriage. They know that a certain percentage of people will be confused by the “vote ‘no’ if you mean ‘yes'” concept and they’ll get at least a few thousand additional votes from people who thought they were saying, “Yes, I want to allow gay people to get married,” not, “Yes, I want to ban gay people from getting married.”

  137. 137
    OzoneR says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    I can’t help wondering if lamh35 is right and there’s some kind of “gay Bradley Effect” where people are unwilling to say anti-gay things to pollsters but vote against gay rights when they’re in the privacy of the polling booth.

    Everybody opposed votes, not everybody who supports does, it just isn’t as important to them.

  138. 138
    celticdragonchick says:

    Never mind. I see that my previous comment is bacl in the moderation line…

  139. 139
    Raven says:

    Neal Boortz making an impassioned call for straight people to call in and explain to him when they decided to be straight.

  140. 140
    Steve says:

    @AxelFoley: “People would have been happy to have a referendum on civil rights rather than fighting and dying in the streets in the South.” –Chris Christie

  141. 141
    Steve says:

    @celticdragonchick: I don’t know how you get out of moderation and then back into it, but I don’t think you should be ashamed about self-defense. Even if nothing ever happens, which of course we all hope, if it helps you feel safer that’s an end in itself.

  142. 142
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @13th Generation: Don’t worry, they don’t.

    One problem is that they let the gay group take the lead and I think they pretty much thought they were screwed from the getgo and didn’t raise money well (maybe they didn’t have much experience with that… after all, this attack is a first in NC). But the amendment itself hits women’s rights, it hits seniors who choose not to marry. It’s way too broad (of course it is, as SSM was already banned). It’s a pity you have counties with 80% no votes next to counties with less than 30% no. No real canvassing occurred, it seems. No ground game. Think they need to hire some consultants from Equality Maine and Equality Florida (rolled back gay adoption ban) to figure out what to do next. They have to work on people. They also need to do a much better job communicating what’s on the ballot. There was a high degree of voter confusion. Also, looks like the yes voters were more motivated in most of the state.

  143. 143
    maus says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    I can’t help wondering if lamh35 is right and there’s some kind of “gay Bradley Effect” where people are unwilling to say anti-gay things to pollsters but vote against gay rights when they’re in the privacy of the polling booth.

    Social sanctions and shaming work!

  144. 144
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @J.W. Hamner: Equality Maine worked really, really hard for years to make SSM happen, and I think they will succeed in a year or two.

    NC groups really didn’t have in on their radar and didn’t know how to run the kind of ground game they wanted. While national opinion has shifted it’s obvious that you need to have a relationship with voters and do all that canvassing, calling, poll working, etc.

    I think if it’s left to state to state, NC is actually a better candidate to get SSM than its neighbors.

  145. 145
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    This was very much an urban-vs-rural contest. I’m not sure what theoretically unintended consequences might have played well with the rural population.

    Bracin’ their anus. They think it’s wrong, they’re askeered of change, and they associate gays with promiscuous urban homosexuals whom they resent for being cityfolk, one thing, and two for having more fun than them. (Damn e-leets.)

    Rural life is full of gay people. That is why the kind of campaign EqMe did is so important. Rural life is also full of unmarried straight couples. It seems like a lot of young unmarried straight couples are unaware of just how precarious their situation is, given that unmarried straights were frequently denied public accommodations and in some cases, actually FIRED from jobs in the Southeast as recently as the 1990’s (and sporadically even since then) and the laws HAVE NOT CHANGED. You thought you were sticking it to the gays, but that finger points right back at you.

    I gotta wonder how young people voted versus their parents. Majority of young evangelicals are not down with the gay-baiting.

  146. 146
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @13th Generation:

    Hate to mention it, but it was also designed to drive a wedge between two core Democratic constituencies, teh gheys, and African Americans (who unfortunately were generally in favor of it).

    I’m not from NC. Maybe you can explain to me why the only county to vote a majority for an African-American female in the Dem gubernatorial primary (it was a coastal county) was also the only “yes” county to be just about 50/50? Majority of the “yes” counties were overwhelmingly yes.

    Would that happen to be a Black county? Just wondering.

    Also, too, Prop 8 data showed that church attendance was the deciding variable, not race.

  147. 147
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Reggie Mantle:

    My wife was a poll worker. From the comments made to her about it, they didn’t. Many of them had never voted before—ever—didn’t even know what a primary was, they’d just been told by their preachers to come out and vote for the amendment.

    Sounds like gay-baiting is alive and well, and teh gayz ran a sloppy campaign (no other voice reached these voters? we had an anti-gay initiative in my rural town and I went over the language word by word with some prominent churchgoers and they told me this guy came to their church telling them to vote for it but he lied to them and they were mad now… oh yeah, it went down in flames) also, this was their first campaign, they were inexperienced and didn’t build relationships with enough allies to get the word out.

    And the blue dogs made the right call.

  148. 148
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @JD Rhoades:

    Although no one ever enforces it, except the civil courts who’ve used it as a pretext for taking custody away from parents “cohabiting” with their new SO. That’s become a lot less common, but when I started practicing, it was routine.

    Exactly. How quickly they forget.

  149. 149
    John (not McCain) says:

    @Yevgraf: Fuck you, bigot.

  150. 150
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    I know that the ideal of the “United States” is a powerful thing for some but I’m convinced that we’re anything but “united”. Not in any way, shape or form, no way. The fabled “melting pot” of our nation is just that, a fable. We have built up this fantasy image of our nation, something special that we have claimed was unique in the world. No, we just imported all of the problems from various nations into this one, and it’s been ‘distilling’ ever since. Every once in a while the still blows up, then we clean up and continue on until the next still blows up. Yet some ‘patriots’ think our nation is the best thing evah.

    No it isn’t. From the time of its birth the people of our nation have been fighting one another in a myriad of ways that can only happen in a multicultural nation whose people refuse to accept and embrace multiculturalism. With the assistance of the politicians who desire to suck off of the teat of the masses for a living, we have downplayed the glaring racism, misogyny, religious intolerance and other hateful bullshit that has happened in our country since before it was founded. Go back over our history and please point out the ‘good old days’ that so many morons pine for. No, they pine for the days that non-whites knew their place in the country. The days when women had few rights and no vote. The days of a weak federal government and strong states. The days when white men ran the show and everyone else followed.

    There never were any ‘good old days’, they never existed. We are who we are and we would know that if we could only look ourselves in the mirror.

    We suck.

  151. 151
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    Rural life is also full of unmarried straight couples. It seems like a lot of young unmarried straight couples are unaware of just how precarious their situation is, given that unmarried straights were frequently denied public accommodations and in some cases, actually FIRED from jobs in the Southeast as recently as the 1990’s (and sporadically even since then) and the laws HAVE NOT CHANGED.

    An amendment very similar to this one went down to defeat in Arizona not because Arizona is so very liberal, but because gay marriage supporters were able to get the word out to elderly voters that it would affect any unmarried couple like, say, the straight couple in their 70s who didn’t want to get married because it would screw up their survivor’s benefits.

    I have a feeling that not a lot of people in North Carolina realized that, for example, this amendment will probably compromise domestic violence cases for cohabiting couples. NOM, of course, will see this as a win since they’re more interested in maintaining male dominance than in people.

  152. 152
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @Another Halocene Human: Believe me, I know. My boss put in a lot of time and effort getting Renee Ellmers elected; he could be exhibit A for this article.

    It’s just that I don’t think the ads against the amendment had a prayer of getting through. I saw the unintended consequences arguments and examples make a difference in some of the one-on-one conversations I had and fail utterly in others. For too many of the people I know, making life harder for straight unmarried couples is a feature, not a bug.

  153. 153
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    No, I think 13th Generation is right about what the purpose was — groups like NOM remember that there was a knee-jerk reflex to blame African-American voters after Prop 8 passed in California, and they were hoping to exploit that and drive a wedge between white and AA Democrats for 2012.

    I think the AA Democrats in NC were fully awake to the possibility and did a whole lot of very vocal work to support the “No” campaign, but even so there were a few “well of course it lost, black people voted against it and betrayed us again” comments already going up last night.

  154. 154
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @jprfrog: I get the impression (which I can’t shake) that these folks actually see the Devil as more real than God or even Jesus.

    There are churches here that still practice treeing the devil.

  155. 155
    taras says:

    @Frapalinger: The DNC to pull the convention and move it somewhere more in tune with the beliefs of the party faithful. Unions are staying away. why not move it to New Mexico? who decided on NC anyways?

  156. 156
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Yevgraf:

    An interesting phenomenon I’ve observed – gay events in my locality appear to be about as racially and economically diverse as a meeting of Young Republicans.

    Marriage is a big fucking deal economically to the wealthy, less so for the poor. Being able to cohabit is important, of course, but a lot of time poor people are all too willing to listen to conservative religious voices telling them to all turn on each other for sexual “sin”.

    Some churches serving impoverished communities do really good work, but some of just houses of pain. You’ve got people who were raised (at best) with authoritarian parenting style which primes them for Christian church control. Others were neglected, which primes them for cult membership. Lots of wolves in sheeps clothing in the religious sphere.

  157. 157
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    Sounds like gay-baiting is alive and well, and teh gayz ran a sloppy campaign

    Bullshit.

    We donated the money, ran the ads and made the phone bank calls and talked to people. You are never, and I mean fucking never going to overcome lifetime social institutions like conservative churches when it comes to persuading people on this issue in the South. The churches already have a considerable advantage in social networking and weekly (or even daily) interactions, as well as a lifetime of propagandizing.

    That means all we can do is persuade supporters to show up, and they did not do it in 2010(which is why this made it to the ballot. I don’t know to what degree they did not show up last night, although voting was very unusually heavy for a primary…again, chirches were pretty good at telling congregants to get out to stick it to teh homos and we do not have any social-cultural institution that can do that with that kind of power. (Liberal churches are less wont to focus on this and even then may still have problems with the older voter demographic)

  158. 158
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    It’s just that I don’t think the ads against the amendment had a prayer of getting through. I saw the unintended consequences arguments and examples make a difference in some of the one-on-one conversations I had and fail utterly in others. For too many of the people I know, making life harder for straight unmarried couples is a feature, not a bug.

    Yep. Screwing over straight unmarried women is perfectly ducky with that crowd…and I have talked with a number of them who have zero problem with blocking little kids from health insurance if mom is not married.

  159. 159
    OzoneR says:

    @Another Halocene Human: Gays ran a really good campaign, even got the NAACP involved. People just didn’t want to listen. Minds couldn’t be changed.

  160. 160
    Another Halocene Human says:

    This deep seated idea that it’s the Blacks and Hispanic voters holding back gay rights is ridiculous and has got to stop especially within the liberal community. All it does is lead to self-fulfilling prophecies, like “blacks and hispanics are against gay marriage, so why make an effort to even target these voters”. You will miss the water for the trees cause guess what, there are more Blacks and Hispanice than you think who are perfectly fine with gay marriage.

    Hey, I’m white and gay and Blacks are my biggest constituency (I’m a union officer), although I do have a loyal core of white supporters (just not the majority of them) and most of teh gheyz have my back (note: not a majority of anything).

    Lazy sheetheads are lazy.

  161. 161
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @OzoneR: They only reached a small portion of the electorate. Polling right before the election showed that a huge number of voters didn’t know what “no” and “yes” votes meant. That’s bad.

    I know the NAACP was involved. Saw some great videos. A lot of that happened late in the game. I’m sure they’ve learned a lot of lessons and will kick ass next time.

  162. 162
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    You know that they are called low information voters for a reason?

    You also know that without some meaningful interaction with gay people to offset a lifetime of culturally driven antipathy, they have no incentive to vote for things that help us?

    A two month campaign is never to to be able to offset a lifetime of experience that tells people in the South GLBT people are strange, liberal and probably want to rape their kids. The campaign did what it could, but it is going to literally take 20 years to allow a lot of older voters who really hate our guts to (horrible as it sounds) die off, and it will also mean that younger voters who still go to conservative curches need to meet us and interact with us in a way to possibly overcome their prejudice.

    This is a long term effort, not an 8 week campaign.

  163. 163
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Yevgraf:

    2. Quit pretending that this is tyrannical and oppressive, and that your cause is something on a par with the Civil Rights Movement.

    Right, transwomen dying in hospitals because doctors refuse to treat them is just a joke. Gay teens committing suicide due to bullying–eh, whatevs. Losing your job b/c you’re gay, or living in the mental torture of trying to keep that a secret, dads who say their daughters should be raped, thugs roaming around looking for gay men to beat up or kill, partners being shut out from hospital rooms, medical powers of attorney being ignored, parents contesting wills, survivors being denied death benefits, children getting taken away by the state.

    Sure, it’s easy to consider these things no big deal when YOU don’t live under the threat of violence and the terror of wondering if your little secret getting out is going to destroy everything.

    Things have gotten better, but it’s only because we FOUGHT for them. If we’re winning now it’s because we’ve spent decades working to change things.

    And there are still transwomen being slaughtered on the streets just for being trans.

    You, sir, are full of shit. Sit down, and shut up.

  164. 164
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    And there are still transwomen being slaughtered on the streets just for being trans.

    This.

    Thank you.

  165. 165
    OzoneR says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    Polling right before the election showed that a huge number of voters didn’t know what “no” and “yes” votes meant. That’s bad.

    Did they not know, or did they not WANT to know?

    The impression I got is a lot of these people were talking to brick walls. People who just didn’t want to discuss the issue, they were voting no and that’s that!

  166. 166
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    You are never, and I mean fucking never going to overcome lifetime social institutions like conservative churches when it comes to persuading people on this issue in the South. The churches already have a considerable advantage in social networking and weekly (or even daily) interactions, as well as a lifetime of propagandizing.

    See, I just happen to disagree. I live in the Southron portion of Floriduh. I’ve seen it happen. But you have to take a multi-pronged approach (lobbying, PR, fundraising, canvassing–including into the scary places, coalition-building, and GOTV). I’m not convinced that the phone calling is all that fucking effective, personally. (Seems to mostly just piss people off, when you reach anyone at all.)

    Changing people’s minds takes years and years. You’re not going to fight something like that off with a pickup campaign over a few months when you’re facing those kinds of headwinds.

    However, I stand by my statements about the ineffectiveness of the campaign. They would NOT have had such high levels of voter confusion had they had more resources, more time, more person-to-person contact. I’m not blaming them, but this is the reality and hopefully next time they will be better prepared. (In Maine, by contrast, the polls were pretty accurate because voters by and large knew what they were voting on.)

    Also, they did NOT do a good job of national fundraising, compared to other statewide campaigns. Period.

  167. 167
    OzoneR says:

    @Yevgraf:

    As of now, your number is in the 5-10 percent range, and you aren’t even of one mind on it.

    what is the appropriate percentage a group needs to be for their rights to be considered “civil rights?”

  168. 168
    Another Halocene Human says:

    Also, celticdragonchick, I am sorry to hear about the circumstances you’re living under in NC right now. Kind of feeling glad I didn’t make the move to NC at present. Do whatever you need to do to protect your family.

    Seven years ago I used to get hassled by complete strangers for being gay but that hasn’t happened in a long time. So perhaps there is hope? Of course I live in a historically AA community and it seems blacks are coming around a lot more quickly than whites. Though the millennial whites are all cool.

  169. 169
    OzoneR says:

    @Another Halocene Human: .

    (In Maine, by contrast, the polls were pretty accurate because voters by and large knew what they were voting on.)

    no they didn’t, there was a lot of discussion about how Yes means No and No meant Yes.

  170. 170
    Another Halocene Human says:

    The MN United website looks like they took lessons from the EqMe model. I hope they are also burning shoe leather (rubber?) like EqMe did as well.

  171. 171
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    A two month campaign is never to to be able to offset a lifetime of experience that tells people in the South GLBT people are strange, liberal and probably want to rape their kids.

    A two-month campaign. Exactly. I don’t think we disagree on this.

  172. 172
    Another Halocene Human says:

    That’s why NOM rushed to repeal SSM in ME, knowing there wasn’t enough time to stop them, and why the Mass State Legislature torpedoed the anti-SSM ballot measure, pushing off the date years into the future when Mass residents would be wondering what the big deal had been about when the sky hadn’t fallen on their heads.

    I think NC is winnable but it will take time and effort.

  173. 173
    gaz says:

    @Yevgraf: I don’t think you packed enough stupid into your rant. Try harder.

  174. 174
    gaz says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    And there are still transwomen being slaughtered on the streets just for being trans.

    This.

    Yevgraf should FOAD.

  175. 175
    Comrade Mary says:

    Obama was interviewed by ABC at 1:30 today, and one of the topics was gay marriage. According to TPM, there have been leaks and hints of “good news” from inside sources.

    ABC is breaking into regular broadcasting at 3 for a special report. Hmmm Interesting timing after the NC results.

  176. 176
  177. 177
    Comrade Mary says:

    Details.

    In an interview with ABC News’ Robin Roberts, the president described his thought process as an “evolution” that led him to this place, based on conversations with his own staff members, openly gay and lesbian service members, and conversations with his wife and own daughters.
    __
    “I have to tell you that over the course of several years as I have talked to friends and family and neighbors when I think about members of my own staff who are in incredibly committed monogamous relationships, same-sex relationships, who are raising kids together, when I think about those soldiers or airmen or marines or sailors who are out there fighting on my behalf and yet feel constrained, even now that Don’t Ask Don’t Tell is gone, because they are not able to commit themselves in a marriage, at a certain point I’ve just concluded that for me personally it is important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same sex couples should be able to get married,” Obama told Roberts, in an interview to appear on ABC’s “Good Morning America” Thursday. Excerpts of the interview will air tonight on ABC’s “World News with Diane Sawyer.”

  178. 178
    Comrade Mary says:

    Video (which I can’t watch from Canada.)

    Video which I can watch from Canada.

  179. 179
    AxelFoley says:

    Well, President Obama just came out.

    No, not out of the closet. He came out for gay marriage:

    http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/.....arriage-2/

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