Hate the Sinner But Love the Sin

Dan Savage causes a walkout at an anti-bullying talk at a high school journalism conference when he points out that we’ll make some progress on bullying when Christians treat the parts of the Bible that mention homosexuality the same way that they treat the parts that mention slavery. (via)

The low-hanging, kumbaya fruit has been picked on bullying. This is the next step, and it’s going to be uncomfortable for evangelical Christians who think that they can preach Leviticus on Sunday and advocate against bullying gay teens on the other days of the week.

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85 replies
  1. 1
    Mino says:

    Was that the address where he treated his audience to some of the verbal shit that bullied kids receive and they got all offended and stomped out.

  2. 2
    cathyx says:

    He is so correct on that point.

  3. 3
    AA+ Bonds says:

    Maybe they’ll make some progress in North Carolina despite Dan Savage telling a bunch of UNC students that they will fail to stop Amendment One

  4. 4
  5. 5
    MikeJ says:

    I don’t think there’s anything inherent;y incompatible about teaching that something is a sin and at the same time teaching that people shouldn’t be bullied.

    [In the US] you don’t see Jews going around picking on people who don’t keep kosher.It’s entirely possible to believe something is wrong and not interfere with other people who may or may not believe the same thing.

    I think christians ought to get over the whole homosexuality is a sin thing because they’re wrong, not because it’s impossible to let people be if you think it is.

  6. 6
    Mark B says:

    Not really a Dan Savage fan, but he acquits himself well here. Openly pointing out the irrationality of religious beliefs is the last taboo.

  7. 7
    schrodinger's cat says:

    Its my observation that the people who like to wear their religion on their sleeve are the most hypocritical and judgmental people you can find.

  8. 8
    El Tiburon says:

    Praise be to those courageous Christians for bravely avoiding the evil propaganda of an avowed liberal sinner. Why those Young Christian Soldiers were in such an evil place (college) learning the devils trade (journalism) is beyond me.

    Praise Rick Santorum they walked out before God smite them with a lightning bolt.

  9. 9

    That was a nice talk, Dan.

  10. 10
    cathyx says:

    Maybe those students who walked out still think that slavery is ok.

  11. 11
    Teddy's Person says:

    Fundie Christians really have set up a nice system for themselves. Spew hate and justify it with specific parts of the bible and, when someone points out that there’s a flaw in their pretzel logic, cry victim and persecution. How do you go up against that kind of bullshit? I’m just glad people like Dan Savage are willing to try.

  12. 12
    middlewest says:

    It’s almost as if we should pick something else to base our morality on than a pack of ancient barbarian fairy tales.

  13. 13
    geg6 says:

    And this is why, whatever stupid thing he may say or do on any given day, I love Dan Savage. Calling out religionists on their pious hypocracy is always endearing to me. Keep making them sqirm, Dan. Religionists should squirm every single second of every single day until they give up trying to control the rest of us who don’t give a shit about whatever stupid sky wizard they worship and the stupid books and bronze age social mores they want us all to believe in.

    I fucking hate religionists and their smug stupidity.

  14. 14
    Wag says:

    Anyone else getting an ad for Liberty University?

  15. 15
    cathyx says:

    It isn’t just fundamentalist Christians who pick and choose what parts of the bible they want to ignore. (Called buffet style worship) Most Catholics do it.

  16. 16
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    I concur, and that’s a huge part of the problem.

    It’s also yet another thing Jesus addressed in the Gospels, that his alleged followers ignore.

  17. 17
    El Cid says:

    All this hubbub about how bad bullying is is just the liberal commie homosex agenda trying to lure strong conservative Americans into making their children weak and effeminate. Don’t give in!

  18. 18
    dr. bloor says:

    If the hypocritical godbotherers keep asserting that it’s their right to bully gays on the grounds of religious expression, I’m going to start exercising my religious convictions and start feeding Christians to lions.

  19. 19
    schrodinger's cat says:

    Guilt and intimidation are their weapons. Do as I say or else.
    Bullies, that’s what they are.

  20. 20
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @El Cid:

    Poe’s Law. It RULZ the innertubes.

  21. 21
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @dr. bloor:

    This. Just this.

  22. 22
    bemused says:

    @dr. bloor:

    Excellent.

  23. 23
    El Cid says:

    @dr. bloor: Are we sure we want to feed lions such toxin-filled, artery-clogging foods? We need to take care of our lion populations.

    How about awesome public coliseum shows with giant flame throwing robot lions?

  24. 24
    Teddy's Person says:

    @cathyx: But doesn’t that just mean Catholics are fundamentalist Christians? Or does fundamental Christian really mean fundamental Protestant? When people typically say “fundamental Christains” are they excluding Catholics?

    I’m not trying to be a smartass but just trying to figure out rhetorical conventions.

  25. 25
    Teddy's Person says:

    @dr. bloor: Thanks for my morning chuckle.

  26. 26
    cathyx says:

    Who’s left for a insecure, emotionally immature, control freak to bully if not the gays? Are fat people still ok?

  27. 27
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @cathyx: Its not just the Christians either. Orthodox Hindus are not that much better, as I have found out through personal experience. Also, Hinduism such as it is practiced by its most devout adherents bears little resemblance to the touchy feely, feel good new agey stuff that is associated with Hinduism in the US.

  28. 28
    Fred Ceely says:

    Anybody without a beard who preaches Leviticus is just not paying attention.

  29. 29
    The Tragically Flip says:

    I really like how people who festoon themselves with crosses and silver rings, define their entire politics by their religious views and generally walk around stuffing their beliefs in other people’s faces have to storm out of the room the moment a critical word is sent in their direction.

    And they’re still wailing and gnashing their teeth over it.

  30. 30
    azlib says:

    I liked what Dan said and his logic was impeccable. Won’t make a twit of difference with the fundies. They will continue to believe what they believe because their belief system is mostly tribal and not based on anything even remotely consistent.

    What the fundies engage in is “proof texting” where you find a passage in the Bible which supports your position without regard to all the things the Bible says which contradict your position on something else.

  31. 31
    geg6 says:

    @Teddy’s Person:

    What you might characterize as fundamentalist Catholiics are what us ex-Catholics know as Opus Dei. Or the Pope. Same thing, really.

    Oh, and I totally vote for flame throwing robot lions. Too cool.

  32. 32
    cathyx says:

    @Teddy’s Person: I suppose when I think of fundamentalist I think of someone who is always bringing up religion and quotes the bible regularly. But it could be anyone from any religion. When I said Catholics, I really should have said someone who isn’t that in your face but still holds to the tenets of their religion. But picks and chooses which ones they will live by and which ones they won’t.

  33. 33
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Teddy’s Person:

    I think it’s part of the same defacto cafeteria treatment of the Holy book that is filled with contradictions. Fundamentalist Christians (who are invariably Protestant) claim that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Therefore everything in it must be rigidly followed. The problem is, it’s filled with contradictions. Jesus has a different take on things than you find in the Old Testament. Yet it’s all inerrant, no matter how contradictory it is.

    So, they wind up picking and choosing, and ignoring anyone who points out to them (as Savage did) that they can’t be consistent in any way with their fundamental doctrine. Because the work is flawed. Which means their God is flawed.

    So, you’ve got this monstrous cauldron of cognitive dissonance which is the basis of their entire faith. They can’t handle this. They want that mean Old Testament stuff, not that commie New Testament stuff. So they ignore the presented words of the man they claim to follow.

    They are fucked up human beings.

  34. 34
    Marcelo says:

    See, all these comments are about hypocritical fundies who get their fee-fees hurt when someone criticizes their religion. But that, to me, isn’t the difficult part of stuff like this. It’s easy to point out how hypocritical and awful fundies are.

    The hard part is realizing that it also applies to people who call themselves Christian, who are decent to gay kids, etc. So many of them get defensive when you point out that Christianity or (insert other religion here) is really this barbaric thing, and understandably so, you’ve just messed with their identity, etc. But it’s weird how they refuse to own their belief system, to take it into account. You always hear how “those people aren’t real Christians” – well, yes they are. They absolutely are. In fact, they’re more Christian than the people who say that.

    Dawkins always talks about how you can criticize one’s politics, one’s education, even one’s culture, but the moment you criticize religion everyone’s feelings get hurt. That’s what makes this difficult. The fundies will crow and crow, but I wonder how long it will take for otherwise decent people who call themselves Christian to own their religion’s evils and account for them (perhaps by deciding not to be Christian anymore).

    None of that came out the way I wanted it to. Savage’s “Fuck your Feelings” article in his column says it far more succinctly: http://www.thestranger.com/sea.....id=5135029

  35. 35
    Lockewasright says:

    Dogmatic religious views prevent morality and decency. What is required to be a decent and moral person is the cognitive ability to understand the impact of your actions on others and the empathy to care. It comes from lying in bed at night unable to hide who you’ve been from yourself and thinking about whether you have been a good person. If a person can absolve their self of responsibility for what they’ve done by chalking it up to obedience to the edicts of their imaginary friend, then they have no need to worry about how they’ve impacted the people around them. It’s not relevant. They no longer have to consider such things.

    Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right.

  36. 36
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    OK, now one of my ads is for Denver Seminary!

  37. 37
    Teddy's Person says:

    @Lockewasright:

    Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right.

    Well said!

  38. 38
    daveX99 says:

    That was pretty cool. I have to admit to wondering if Savage’s abrasiveness is a bad strategy, especially when watching those young people walk out. They are still forming their world view, and he may have just guaranteed that they will reject the whole of his argument because of his ‘picking on’ the bible and his word choice. It seems a little mean to pick on ‘kids’.

    Then about 2 seconds later, I realized that that’s just too bad. I hope they eventually learn to hear the substance of what he said about the bible, but if they don’t, there’s not much hope for them.

    I realized that the real value to that abrasiveness is that Savage, as the voice for the bullied, is demonstrating that he doesn’t have to ‘engage’ with the Christian Fundamentalist view.

    What’s extremely important here is what Savage is saying to the young gay person – who might be bullied or suffering shame. He’s modelling for them how an unapologetic, proud, out, confident person acts: he not only doesn’t have to withstand bullying, he is perfectly capable of seeing and calling out bullshit when he sees it.

    I think he’s awesome.

  39. 39
    Teddy's Person says:

    @cathyx: Yes, fundamentalism and evangelicalism is a noxious cocktail. You get a twofer: 1) use your [insert preferred text here] to justify your behavior and 2) claim that you’re trying to save your victim’s soul.

    I too am in favor of flaming throwing robot lions.

  40. 40
    redshirt says:

    Rev. Lovejoy: “Have you ever read this thing?! Technically, we’re not allowed to go to the bathroom.”

  41. 41
    fasteddie9318 says:

    Catholicism and fundamentalism are structurally incompatible. Catholicism requires accepting Church teaching and tradition as equally valid sources of guidance as Scripture, and what makes fundamentalists fundamentalist is the rejection of everything but Scripture. Even the real asshole pre-Vatican II or Opus Dei Catholics still accept Church dogma and the primacy of the pope in spiritual life, which are both non-starters for fundamentalists. Doesn’t mean they don’t look the same from a social-damage-done perspective, though.

  42. 42
    EB says:

    @MikeJ:

    Deep thought: what if Christian parents have children and then these children are…gay?!?

    Could it possibly be that a large amount of bullying against gay kids is commited by their parents?

    It’s almost as if there’s a tenuous connection between the notion that “being gay”=sins like lying would grief for gay children.

    End of deep thought

  43. 43
    fasteddie9318 says:

    What I like most about Christianists is their unwavering ability to claim that Jebus waved his hand and changed all the parts of the OT that make them personally uncomfortable, but left the rest in place. “Well, no, slavery is not allowed, because Jesus something something. But homos? Hey, read your Leviticus, fag.”

    Of course, Jebus isn’t supposed to have said anything about doing away with OT law, is he? Quite the opposite, actually.

  44. 44
    Clime Acts says:

    The most depressing thing to me about this incident is that these young students believe the proper response to having one’s thinking or beliefs challenged, in an academic setting no less, is to fucking leave the environment.

    I hope, but doubt, that their instructors take this as an opportunity to talk about having the willingness to have one’s assumptions challenged as a normal and necessary part of a rigorous education.

    Of course now in the U.S. it’s all about not having your fee fee’s hurt.

    From a professional perspective, Savage could well have done without all the “bullshits’ and other language in that environment. Kind of assy.

  45. 45
    suzanne says:

    @Marcelo:

    That’s what makes this difficult. The fundies will crow and crow, but I wonder how long it will take for otherwise decent people who call themselves Christian to own their religion’s evils and account for them (perhaps by deciding not to be Christian anymore).

    The response to that, though, is why should decent, loving people who find fulfillment and meaning in their faith abandon it? Merely because some other people get it wrong, but call it by the same name? Also keep in mind that most Protestant denominations are not as centralized and cohesive as, say, Catholicism or Mormonism; there’s no Pope or Prophet in, say, Methodism.

    The pastors that baptized me and performed my wedding are both gay marriage supporters (one got arrested for doing so), equality-minded people, who are leading groups of people to greater fulfillment in their lives through acts of what they believe are Christian service. There is no one mantle of Christianity to claim, no matter how much the fundies and Talibangelicals may try to make it so. IMHO, suggesting that liberal/mainline Christians leave the faith is about the worst idea ever.

  46. 46
    MonkeyBoy says:

    @daveX99:

    I have to admit to wondering if Savage’s abrasiveness is a bad strategy, especially when watching those young people walk out.

    Note that the “Christians” had pre-arranged their walkout to start as soon as Savage mentioned the Bible – so it could be captured on video as a protest – as opposed to protesting by just not attending his lecture which wouldn’t have any media impact. Thus the “Christians” essentially stuck their fingers in their ears and didn’t hear anything that might offend them.

    The couch fainters want Savage to apologize for calling Christians in his audience “pansy-asses”. What he actually called “pansy-ass” was the action of walking out to avoid hearing his speech that was performed by people who were no longer his audience.

  47. 47
    Clime Acts says:

    @cathyx:

    Who’s left for a insecure, emotionally immature, control freak to bully if not the gays? Are fat people still ok?

    It’s not OK for anyone to be bullied, of course.

    Curious: Do you put obesity in the same category with sexual orientation as an inborn trait?

  48. 48
    MonkeyBoy says:

    @Lockewasright:

    Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right.

    While this is a cute saying it is too black and white in assuming that “right” can have a definition outside a moral framework, and it essentially doesn’t allow the study of things considered “moral” that don’t confirm to whatever your definition of right and wrong is, other than to class them as stupid, irrational, etc.

    For many people things like not eating pork and obeying “legitimate” authorities are considered moral decisions.

  49. 49
    azelie says:

    @Teddy’s Person:

    Because I can’t help but go into historian mode sometimes:

    Though of course the term now has a broader meaning, fundamentalism was originally called this because it was influenced by the publication of a multi-volume series called “The Fundamentals” in the early 20th century.

    The authors were particularly concerned about attempts in more liberal seminaries to study the Bible as a historical and literary text (Higher Criticism), and wanted to affirm several doctrines (biblical inerrancy, virgin birth, original sin, death of Jesus as atonement for human sin).

    Here’s an early argument (1920s) against fundamentalism by someone who was concerned about it goal of driving thinking people out of churches.

  50. 50
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Clime Acts:

    Oh, great. Someone has a totally broken sarcasm detector.

    Dense. Very dense.

  51. 51
    The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    It’s about as ignored by those ‘More Christian than Thou’ folks as ‘Blessed are the Meek’ and ‘It’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle…’ Instead, they just wanna hear “I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword” and then twist everything else to their worldview.

  52. 52
    WereBear says:

    Fundamentalism is to Unitarianism as a raging drunken man urinating on a lawn is to a nice young person rescuing a puppy.

    It’s this clumping it all together and calling it religion; well, we clump it all together and call it humanity, too. But it’s a really really big continuum.

    There is no denying that Jesus, the teacher, advocated the care of the sick, the support of the poor and disenfranchised, and the power of love. And there ain’t nothing wrong with that.

    I can and do critique Fundamentalism most harshly, as it is simply a collection of con games that allow people to wallow in evil while feeling superior to others. If more critics were to have a bit better knowledge of what they are criticizing, I don’t think there would be so many openings for people to complain.

  53. 53
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @WereBear:

    f more critics were to have a bit better knowledge of what they are criticizing, I don’t think there would be so many openings for people to complain.

    They’d complain anyway, because they’re anti-knowledge to begin with.

  54. 54
    John of Indiana says:

    @MikeJ: “[In the US] you don’t see Jews going around picking on people who don’t keep kosher.”

    Never been to Hasidic York City, have you?

  55. 55
    John of Indiana says:

    I always wondered about how you could go to church and hear a sermon on Leviticus, then go to Red Lobster for brunch afterwards…. Mmmmm, shrimps on Sunday! Nothing better! Gawd is GOOD!

  56. 56
    Lockewasright says:

    @MonkeyBoy:

    Perhaps morality is individual at best and attempts to standardize it through doctrine fail because they impose obedience in place of individual conscience. There doesn’t need to be a universal right or wrong for the statement to remain accurate. In fact, I would argue that the uniqueness of individual conscience and the absence of a universal right or wrong support rather than refute the concept in the comment.

  57. 57
    hitchhiker says:

    @Marcelo:

    I wonder how long it will take for otherwise decent people who call themselves Christian to own their religion’s evils and account for them (perhaps by deciding not to be Christian anymore).

    It’s a tough thing, and not because people are unwilling to own the evils or talk about them . . . it’s that once you go there, once you acknowledge that the bible is full of bullshit and probably doing more harm than good in the world, the fundamental reason to call yourself a gathered community is gone. if the Christian story as told in the bible is a hot mess, where’s the center?

    Being part of a gathered community, an intentional tribe, fills what I think is a very deep need. My in-laws are here for the weekend, and I was talking with my mil about this very thing yesterday afternoon. She can’t swallow the theology of her very liberal, social-justice active church at all . . . but as she said, “I’ve been there for 52 years. Everyone I know and love is there. All those friendships . . . ”

    What replaces that need to be part of a tribe? Online communities? Neighborhoods? Extended families? Solve that puzzle, and the church’s power will vanish like the Soviet Union.

  58. 58

    […] DAN SAVAGE CAUSED A WALKOUT at an anti-bullying talk at a high school journalism conference when he pointed out that we’ll make some progress on bullying when Christians treat the parts of the Bible that mention homosexuality the same way that they treat the parts that mention slavery. (via) […]

  59. 59
    MonkeyBoy says:

    @Lockewasright:

    Perhaps morality is individual at best and attempts to standardize it through doctrine fail because they impose obedience in place of individual conscience.

    You are basically advocating the “individualism fallacy” that societies are solely a collection of individuals. This got its impetus from various Enlightenment thinking on society and politics and is the mainstay of current Libertarian thought.

    The thing is that moral rules are group rules and (other than Purity rules such as not eating pork) they involve the interaction of 2 or more people – not an individual operating in isolation.

  60. 60

    @El Cid:

    […]giant flame throwing robot lions[…]

    Let me know when the RFP comes out. Those would be fun to build…

  61. 61
    gbear says:

    I hope that Dan’s speech will lead some of these fragile delicate flowers to reconsider their commitment to a career in journalism. We don’t need more journalists who have their minds made up before they hear the story.

  62. 62
    Rome Again says:

    Gotta love this:

    The executive director of the National Scholastic Press Association provided Fox News with joint statement from the Journalism Education Association that was sent to members – after a number of people complained about Savage’s remarks.
    “We appreciate the level of thoughtfulness and deliberation regarding Dan Savage’s keynote address,” the NSPA wrote. “some audience members who felt hurt by his words and tone decided to leave in the middle of his speech, and to this, we want to make our point very clear: While as a journalist it’s important to be able to listen to speech that offends you, these students and advisers had simply reached their tolerance level for what they were willing to hear.”

  63. 63
    Lockewasright says:

    @MonkeyBoy: Your original statement was the poster child for the “appeal to authority” fallacy. The people walking out in this video couldn’t even permit themselves to witness let alone participate in consideration of the merits of authoritarian dictates. Obedience would not permit contemplation. My original statement puts me at odds with the current libertarian in that I propose the morality hinges on consideration of the impact of one’s behaviors on one’s contemporaries. Thus my argument is that morality is unique, not that morality can exist in selfish refusal to acknowledge the rest of society.

  64. 64
    am says:

    @Wag:

    I wish I was seeing ads for Liberty University.

    You do know that it diverts money from indoctrinating young republicans, and into John’s pockets? I don’t see the problem, myself….

  65. 65
    Cain says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Its my observation that the people who like to wear their religion on their sleeve are the most hypocritical and judgmental people you can find.

    I believe that is what the Jesus believes and it is in fact in the Bible. Jesus loathes such people. Yet here we are.

  66. 66
    Cain says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    @cathyx: Its not just the Christians either. Orthodox Hindus are not that much better, as I have found out through personal experience. Also, Hinduism such as it is practiced by its most devout adherents bears little resemblance to the touchy feely, feel good new agey stuff that is associated with Hinduism in the US.

    Orthodox anything just means ‘crazy’ in my opinion.

    That said, Hinduism is somewhat complex religion. Hinduism as a philosophy is very much a libertarian world. For instance, there are not much taboos, or rules. The rules you see are basically what man has imposed on itself. But it makes the assertion that if you are already one with Brahman, you don’t really need rules since you’d be ‘aware’ so to speak.

    The rules to get that awareness requires that you isolate yourself in meditation. Pretty much what the Buddha did. But the problem is, because Hindu is a very cerebral religion and some people can’t handle that, they just want the cliff notes. A set of simple rules that gets them through life. Not everyone can be as ascetic after all. So by all rights, a fundamentalist Hindu should really be some guy who needs to head to the mountains and STFU.

    Now society rules are kinda nutty. A hindu mob can form instantly, and go on a rampage. It has nothing to do with Hinduism and everything to do with caste. I don’t know a single crazy Hindu except for one, and she is pretty harmless. She has a no meat thing so badly, that she won’t even sit on a leather sofa.

    I can go on and on on this topic. :-)

  67. 67
    cckids says:

    @Clime Acts:

    The most depressing thing to me about this incident is that these young students believe the proper response to having one’s thinking or beliefs challenged, in an academic setting no less, is to fucking leave the environment.

    Yes. It is a rather feeble faith that cannot face up to any questions or challenges. To be a fundy must be to live in such a constant state of fear; it must be exhausting.

  68. 68
    Flying Squirrel Girl says:

    Anyone else find this amusing/ironic?
    Savage did offer a sarcastic apology “if I hurt anyone’s feelings.”

    So this is no longer an acceptable apology?

  69. 69
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @Cain

    Now society rules are kinda nutty. A hindu mob can form instantly, and go on a rampage. It has nothing to do with Hinduism and everything to do with caste.

    You cannot really separate Hinduism from the caste system. The rules about how to maintain ritual purity, forms the core of Hinduism in practice. Vedanta, specifically the Upanishads are quite cerebral, but I was talking about how Hinduism is actually practiced, not the lofty philosophical texts.
    You have also not mentioned anything about how traditional Hindus treat their women, if there unmarried or worse still if they are widowed. It is a great religion if you are a Brahmin male not so otherwise.

    I don’t know a single crazy Hindu except for one,

    You have not met my mother-in-law.

    and she is pretty harmless. She has a no meat thing so badly, that she won’t even sit on a leather sofa.

    Are you sure your friend is a Hindu, she sounds like a Jain to me. I had a Jain friend in school who eschewed leather completely, forget no meat, she did not even eat onions or garlic or peanuts or anything else that grew underground.

  70. 70
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @Cain:

    I don’t know a single crazy Hindu except for one

    How would you characterize Narendra Modi? Or RSS and Shivsena, who use divisive tactics, which are not merely rhetorical? What about Babri Masjid, the religious riots in Bombay in 1992-93 after the Babri Masjid was demolished, Godhra incident
    and I could go on.

    The Hindu right in India could teach the Christian right in the US a thing or two about intimidating those who are not like them.

  71. 71
    Bago says:

    As someone who grew up in a fundie cult, right down to the “no secular media” and “keep children straight by showing them your penis” bit from Dobson, I have to say: Dan Savage is a pretty good DJ. To unpack that, he and some of the people from the stranger do fundraising parties where they spin records(or stream FLACs or mp3s) down at the Re-Bar.

  72. 72
    Joseph Nobles says:

    The Breitbartians are doing a full court press on this today. There are no less than eight stories at breitbart.com about various ways that Dan Savage has offended them.

    In other news, Dan Savage has apologized for calling the actions “pansy-assed”, but he explicitly stands by his call-out of hateful rhetoric from Christians.

  73. 73
    jncc says:

    Dan Savage is a fucking righteous man.

  74. 74
    Ruviana says:

    @schrodinger’s cat: Just curious–what DID she eat? And what did it taste like? No onions and no garlic sounds pretty awful.

  75. 75
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @Ruviana: Dairy, grains, fruits and vegetables, legumes. Also there were no restrictions on other spices cayenne, turmeric, cumin, coriander, chillies etc. etc. I think cashews and almonds were OK too.
    The food at her house was delicious actually, in spite of all the restrictions.

  76. 76
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @Ruviana: The legumes had to be of the unsprouted variety, since the sprouted ones were “alive”

  77. 77
    John 2.0 says:

    @AA+ Bonds: Well, I was at that taping of Savage U in Chapel Hill and what he actually said was that he things Amendment 1 will pass, just as other constitutional amendments in every other southern state has passed, but that it ultimately won’t matter. It won’t matter because as long people keep fighting Amendment 1 will be overturned and marriage equality will be the law of the land.

    Would it have been better if he said that they would win on A1, when he didn’t believe it? Honestly, I’ve lived in NC my whole life and I think A1 is a poorly written travesty, and an embarrassment to my state, but I still think it is going to pass.

    Also, at the same show he addressed your linked image, when he got a question about It Gets Better coming from a place of white male privilege. His response, and I quote was: “Fuck You.”

  78. 78
    DougW says:

    @El Tiburon: He just does that every day eh wot?

  79. 79
    DougW says:

    @dr. bloor: The Lions will have indigestion. That mean xtian meat makes them vomit and gives them the nastiest gas.

  80. 80
    DougW says:

    @El Cid: Too intimidating and unfair. Perhaps we could make them (or push them) off of a tower into a glass water?

  81. 81
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @MikeJ: [In the US] you don’t see Jews going around picking on people who don’t keep kosher.It’s entirely possible to believe something is wrong and not interfere with other people who may or may not believe the same thing.

    Bullies never pick on anyone their own size. There is plenty of bullying in the frum world–actually, it is much, much worse than that. Google “off the derech” just to get a tiny, tiny, tiny taste of this.

    There are some corrupt frumster rabbis making a frigging mint on scam “kosher” and “ultra-kosher” foods. Look up “kosher lettuce” for a truly bizarre experience.

  82. 82
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @AA+ Bonds: Love the pic.

  83. 83
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Lockewasright:

    Dogmatic religious views prevent morality and decency. What is required to be a decent and moral person is the cognitive ability to understand the impact of your actions on others and the empathy to care. It comes from lying in bed at night unable to hide who you’ve been from yourself and thinking about whether you have been a good person. If a person can absolve their self of responsibility for what they’ve done by chalking it up to obedience to the edicts of their imaginary friend, then they have no need to worry about how they’ve impacted the people around them. It’s not relevant. They no longer have to consider such things.

    Word. You are so, so right. I wish we had studied your writings instead of wasting so much time on clotted brainpans like Kant when I was in school.

    Seriously, I think there was a study that came out a few years back showing that fundy Xians were more self-righteous than agnostic/atheists because the latter felt when they wronged somebody they needed to ask that party for forgiveness but the Xtians just asked Jeebus to forgive them and felt better about themselves. So they had better self-esteem but were total jerks.

    Sounds about right.

    (Two of the biggest bullies I ever worked with were major Christ-stains.)

  84. 84
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @daveX99: The kids with closed minds walking out is an object lesson to those who remained.

    The kids who walked out were threatened enough to walk out (and seek safety in walking out). You’d be surprised… one day, a few of them will look back and shake their heads at how brainwashed they were.

    I was brought up to despise NOW and NARAL and now I’m going to their rallies. I was raised to distrust Planned Parenthood and now I’m writing them big checks every Christmas. I didn’t know shit about shit when I was a teenager (well, I knew a lot of math, whoop-de-doo). I’m a little bit sad for the lonely, choked off, scared, trusting little bugger than I was. But not too much, as I try to live in the present.

  85. 85
    Mike S. says:

    @MikeJ:
    The analogy to kashrut doesn’t work.
    Christianity is inherently proselytizing, thus seeking to impose its behavioral constraints and values along with its theology.
    In comparison, Judaism does not really promote conversion, in fact it does much to impede it. This, coupled with the fact that Jewish Law does not demand that gentiles adhere to Jewish dietary law, makes this subject unsuitable for your intended analogy.

    It is manifestly not a matter of Jews believing it is ‘wrong’ for non-Jews to eat non-kosher food while simultaneously refraining from enforcing that belief.

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