Sunday morning open thread

It’s too damn early for me to think of something witty to talk about.  And while John’s OT from last night is just as open and thready as it was in the beginning, it’s starting to have that “not so fresh feeling”.  One thing I’ve noticed since getting the keys, is the number of conservatives who show up in the filter trying to post to dead threads like they’re trying to have the last word.  Yes, I know that some people only discover a thread after it’s been linked on another website where the denizens thereof are all like “look at the silly libertards at balloon juice” and so they come over here to gift us with their wisdom.  However since the vast majority of those people never post in a current thread, it’s rather obvious to me what they’re doing.

Veritas, makewi, and BoB may be innumerate, semi-literate fuckwits with the same grasp of logic as dead bacteria, and all of them possessed by bizarre sexual fetishes, but at least they have the rhetorical courage of their convictions to come in here and take the abuse over and over again.

Courtesy of commenter Vince in the last thread, we have Rick Santorum talking about euthanasia in the Netherlands.






257 replies
  1. 1
    comrade scott's agenda of rage says:

    Trolls and “courage of their convictions” isn’t something I ever think of as belonging in the same sentence.

  2. 2
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Surely some revelation is at hand;
    Surely the Second Coming is at hand.

    WBY

  3. 3
    Egg Berry says:

    Candy Crowley has Michele Bachmann and Mitch Daniels on her show this morning discussing women’s health. Shoot me now.

  4. 4
    Schlemizel says:

    For being early in the morning that was very well written. OTOH I would really rather have the late arrivals so we wouldn’t have to deal with them.

  5. 5
    jrg says:

    If a bear takes a shit in the woods, and no one is around to smell it, does it still stink?

  6. 6
    Thymezone says:

    Veritas, makewi, and BoB may be innumerate, semi-literate fuckwits with the same grasp of logic as dead bacteria, and all of them possessed by bizarre sexual fetishes, but at least they have the rhetorical courage of their convictions to come in here and take the abuse over and over again.

    Good point. As long as they are honestly representing their true positions. With the kind of trolling people here are capable of, one doesn’t always know. BoB, for example, strikes me as being a bullshit artist. Whereas makewi strikes me as just being too square to realize how foolish his/her material is . As bad as the arguments are, makewi will try to make them. Whereas BoB will just fuck with you for the fun of it. This view of them is purely subjective, of course. They both could be written by DougJ for all I know. He is quite capable of it, as we learned years ago.

  7. 7
    JPL says:

    Soonergrunt and Vince linked to a must see video on the previous thread and all I can say is WOW. Santorum cannot become President. He’s an ignorant ass… My MIL died yesterday after a week of unconsciousness. She was 91 and had a good life but a series of strokes left her twisted and unable to eat. Santorum would issue an executive order keeping her alive by any means necessary.

  8. 8
    handsmile says:

    Gee, I don’t know Soonergrunt. The first second of your second paragraph seems pretty damned witty to me. And insufficiently-caffeinated cranky as well.

    Domestic chores in the handsmile household today. Then as a reward, a late afternoon Bach Vespers service.

  9. 9
    Schlemizel says:

    @Egg Berry:
    Well, we complained that they didn’t bring in women to discuss the matter so this is the closest they could come.

  10. 10
    c u n d gulag says:

    “Euthanasia in the Netherlands?”

    I thought that was some rightie troll talking about the NY Knicks trading Jeremy Lin to a team in the Dutch league.

    Btw – did anyone see that ESPN had to pull a headline their mobile site the other day, about a “Chink in the Armour?”

    http://www.andmoresports.com/2.....armor.html

    Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!!!
    ESPN has to stop hiring Liberty U. grads to write headlines.

  11. 11
    Elizabelle says:

    @JPL:

    Best to you and yours, JPL. 91 is a good run.

  12. 12
    Jamey says:

    @Egg Berry: Hope she asks them about the health affects of obesity on professional women.

  13. 13
    Donut says:

    @Egg Berry:

    Fair! Balanced! Reasonable!

  14. 14
    harlana says:

    Rick Santorum talking about euthanasia in the Netherlands.

    once again, just throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks. monkeys have more self-control.

  15. 15
    Jamey says:

    @c u n d gulag: You should have seen the first draft of the headline, about how Lin doesn’t know how to drive.
    [/went there]

  16. 16
    Soonergrunt says:

    @JPL: I’m very sorry for your loss. And while I know that it was something completely expected after a good long run, that doesn’t make it hurt any less really. Hugs to the JPL household today.

  17. 17
    handsmile says:

    @Viva BrisVegas: (#2)

    How very fine: a little Yeats in the morning! (A poetry thread would be something to behold here.)

    For the sake of topicality, let me suggest his “Crazy Jane” series, one of which “Crazy Jane Talks with the Bishop” is linked below:

    http://www.poemhunter.com/poem.....he-bishop/

  18. 18
    Soonergrunt says:

    @c u n d gulag: ABL threaded about it here.

  19. 19

    I looked for some response from the Netherlands and didn’t find it. Maybe these allegations are just now surfacing and it will take a while for a rebuttal to surface.

    Forced euthanasia? I doubt it.

    Little Ricky also said there are now more abortions than in 1950 or so, before abortion was legalized. This would be difficult to verify because so many abortions used to take place in secret.

    Let me go Godwin on you: The German Nazi government really, really did not approve of abortion and they attached serious punishments what they considered a crime. I read an article once that argued that the rate of abortion in Germany in the 1920s and in the 1930s was roughly equal. I don’t know how the author verified this.

    But if this is so, there is probably nothing that a US governmental body would be willing to do that would wipe out abortion.

    Give it up, Ricky. That battle was lost before you were born.

  20. 20
    MattF says:

    Also, Santorum on public schools. No, no double meaning intended and he says Federal and State involvement in education is an anachronism. Thereby losing pretty much the entire middle-class suburban electorate, which is no mean feat.

  21. 21
    Egg Berry says:

    fortunately, I am in a hotel lobby, so I don’t have to hear the insanity.

  22. 22
    wvng says:

    Does anyone have specific and credible information on Lil Ricky’s “point” that is more useful than “just throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks.”

  23. 23
    harlana says:

    @JPL: and yet the quality of life, from conception to death, is of no concern to them whatsoever.

  24. 24
    HRA says:

    @JPL: My condolences to you and the family.

    Santorum has become absolutely certified IMO. To think he was once elected as a Senator seems unreal now. Oh wait! He would fit right in now.

  25. 25
    Schlemizel says:

    I have had a lot of contact with fundies in the past, not voluntarily, there was one common thread. They have not problem telling lies to make a point they want to believe is true. What I think they are doing is looking for the deeply stupid and the already true believers. Looks like Ol Frothy has this down pat. Seems a foolish way to run a campaign for Prez but he may be one of those guys that falls into both true believer and deeply stupid camps

  26. 26
    MikeJ says:

    Is there a text version of what Santorum said?

  27. 27
    chopper says:

    @Elizabelle:

    I just found out that my great-uncle Dave died a few days back. at the age of 105 IIRC. they grow old on my mom’s side.

  28. 28
    harlana says:

    @wvng: because some doctors are protected in certain cases of assisted suicide in the Netherlands, the Obama administration wants to kill old people

  29. 29
    Soonergrunt says:

    @MikeJ: Basically what he said is that half of all old people in the Netherlands who die are being euthanized against their will, so there’s this huge problem with elderly people there refusing to go the hospital because they are afraid they’ll be killed in the service of lower expenses. He then pivots to how abortion has been legal in the US for something like 50 years and how that’s an example of how quickly the medical profession can be corrupted in the name of money.
    And while I didn’t get that all correct, enough of it is stuck in my brain that I can’t get it out, and it’s reasonably close.

  30. 30
    harlana says:

    @HRA: however divorced from reality Mitt may be, Santorum comes off as profoundly unbalanced, the perfect nom for the times

  31. 31
    JPL says:

    Santorum brought home a fetus in a jar so his behavior is expected, I suppose.

  32. 32
    redshirt says:

    Abortions for all! Tiny American flags for some!

  33. 33
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Schlemizel: That’s the thing I love to tell them–that their faith is pretty weak if they need to lie to prop it up.

  34. 34
    Schlemizel says:

    @JPL:
    My grandmother died in much the same way, a series of stokes that left he unaware, unable to eat, unable to do anything but breath. She and my grandfather had had discussed this possibility and made it clear they did not want to be kept alive in these circumstances.

    When my grandfather requested the feeding tube be removed the doctor told him “YOU are killing her if we do that, its not a natural death but you killing her”.

    Granddad relented, Grandma lingered another week for no good reason (well, I’m sure the Dr. billed Medicare as much as he could, it was the kind of guy he was). My grandfather bitterly regretted changing his mind & worried we would do the same to him. His last words to me were of his regret and a demand that I not let him suffer the end my grandmother had.

    Mr. Santorum is scum, a waste of human DNA & I hope for a long, lingering end for him when his time comes.

  35. 35
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Linda Featheringill:
    When that official Dutch response does come out, I expect we will all learn some new and very polite ways to say, “Mind your own damn business.”

  36. 36
    Donut says:

    @harlana:

    because some doctors are protected in certain cases of assisted suicide in the Netherlands, the Obama administration wants to kill old people all hardworking white Americans, and take their guns, convert them to Islam, destroy the military, and spend all the Social Security and Medicare money on welfare for Blah people

    Tried updating that a little bit. Not sure if I got it all.

  37. 37
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Linda Featheringill:
    @Amir Khalid:
    The Dutch, being the very classy people they are (at least the ones I’ve known, anyway) will probably just ignore it, if they even know about it.

  38. 38
    Micheline says:

    This really sucks:

    A new Des Moines Register poll in Iowa shows President Obama trails three of the four Republican candidates in head-to-head match-ups if the election were held today.

    The Republican with the biggest lead: Ron Paul, who would defeat Obama by 7 percentage points, 49% to 42%. Rick Santorum leads Obama 48% to 44%. Mitt Romney leads Obama 46% to 44%. The president defeats only Newt Gingrich, 51% to 37%.

  39. 39
    JPL says:

    @Schlemizel: Yesterday the Washington Post had an article about keeping those dying alive. link My mil had a living will and she was moved from the hospital last Saturday to the assisted care village where she lived and hospice was called in. She was kept comfortable with various drugs.

  40. 40
    Yevgraf says:

    Allay I know is that I commented like a beating ass last night.

  41. 41
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Thymezone: nah. i membah makewi from protein wisdom, where i was nishizono shinji, before i was, of course, perma-banned.
    ;)

    Protein Wisdom has gone full metal fascist, and is embracing John Birch at this point. truly wondrous to behold. Birchers were “canaries in the coalmine”.

    This is what kills me: Many of the warnings against what the Left was actually up to were being articulated rather clearly and urgently—from the beginning—by none other than tin-foil-hatters such as the John Birch Society.

  42. 42
    WyldPirate says:

    Interesting that in the first five posts on a “progressive” or “liberal” blog–where the majority of the denizens yak constantly about their acceptance of this group or that and their openness to giving a hearing to different ideas—three contain some variation of snarky dismissiveness towards some of the core principles liberals/progressives claim to be so proud of.

    In reality, this blog is as “tribal” and “pack-like” as the most vile right wing site. The main difference is that when the self-designated blog “alpha dogs” and their followers attack a stranger or poster who fails the pack-accepted ideological butt-sniffing test, most of you can write intelligible sentences and don’t overuse all caps and bold letters

  43. 43
    Anya says:

    @Micheline: Did they only poll the republicans?

    @JPL: My condolences to you and your family. Ninety is a huge milestone. I hope your comforted by good memories.

  44. 44
    handsmile says:

    The issue of the Supreme Court is often raised, perhaps ineffectually, as a way to motivate turnout in a presidential election.

    Imagining Rih Santorum as the Health and Human Services Secretary in a Republican administration should be all the motivation one might need to get oneself and a hundred closest friends and family members to the voting booth to support Democratic candidates.

    (Frothy himself will, of course, not be the presidential nominee, for reasons similar to why Bachmann, Cain or Paul were never going to be the nominee.)

  45. 45
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @JPL:

    I’m sorry about your MIL. Agree that 91 is a fine long life, but

    Is life a boon?
    If so, it must befall
    That Death, whene’er he call,
    Must call too soon.

    {{{hugs}}}

  46. 46
    R. Porrofatto says:

    @Linda Featheringill:
    You can find reactions to this in a few Dutch newspapers. Here for example.

    And a Dutch commenter here explains how it is all bullshit (surprise!).

    This kind of crap has been circulating in right-wing fundie emails for years — it was usually “Don’t euthanize me” wallet cards, though. The bracelet must be new.

    Republicans are actually running a “chain email” campaign now, with all that implies.

  47. 47
    Soonergrunt says:

    @WyldPirate: Oh, look. The Hurt FeeFee Police are here!
    Thank God.

  48. 48
    Micheline says:

    @Anya: They polled Democrats as well here is an article discussing the poll results:

    …Iowa men, young people propel Paul

    The Republican candidate who does best in Iowa matchups against Barack Obama is Ron Paul, a three-time presidential candidate and a libertarian-leaning congressman from Texas.

    “Ron Paul lives,” said Register pollster J. Ann Selzer.

    His popularity surprised Selzer, but the poll data line up with last year’s Iowa Poll at this time — same proportion of young people, same proportion of Republicans.

    “The Paul finding does not appear to be an artifact of an odd poll,” she said.

    Selzer observed that the two candidates who do best in the poll, Paul and Rick Santorum, have not yet had to endure the onslaught of negative advertising that Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich have faced. Given Santorum’s recent caucus and primary wins, his turn in the cross hairs may be imminent.

    Exit polling in 2008 showed Obama won with support of 56 percent of women and 66 percent of the under-30 vote. Paul strips him of some of the youth vote. Fifty-five percent of Iowa likely voters under 35 go with Paul and just 39 percent with Obama. Men also drive Paul’s lead over Obama. Among likely male voters, it’s 54 percent for Paul, 36 percent for Obama.

    A constellation of reasons draws some Iowa Democrats, Republicans and independents to Paul, not one unifying issue.

    Jeff Krider, 50, of Adel, an Obama voter four years ago, thinks Obama could do a good job “if he had the backing of the people in the House, but there’s a communication problem there.”

    Right now, Paul looks most appealing of all the candidates because he never sidesteps issues, said Krider, a Democrat who works on a chicken farm.

    “We spend too much time worrying about what other countries are doing when ours is falling apart,” Krider said. “We have outrageous unemployment going on, and people are losing homes, and we’re over in some faraway land spending billions when it could be spent helping our own people out.”

    Paul is the only Republican he’d vote for, Krider said. If Paul’s not the nominee, Obama gets his vote.

    Almost an equal number of likely Iowa voters view Paul unfavorably (41 percent) as view him favorably (42 percent).
    Romney would win despite high ‘unfavorable’ mark

    As the GOP front-runner in Iowa, Mitt Romney faced a hailstorm of criticism from the right.

    The nasty nomination battle has left Romney with a bruised favorable/unfavorable rating of 39 percent favorable to 51 percent unfavorable.

    But he would still beat Barack Obama by 2 percentage points if the presidential election were today.

    The one-term Massachusetts governor wins among men (49 percent to 40 percent).

    He also wins in all of Iowa’s congressional districts except the 2nd (southeast Iowa), where Obama wins 49 percent to 42 percent.

    Obama leads among women (47 percent to 44 percent). Voters with incomes under $50,000 go for Obama. The highest income bracket, $70,000 and above, goes for Romney.

    Independent voter Ken Olson, a retired police officer from Cresco, would choose Obama if the GOP nominee were Ron Paul, Rick Santorum or Newt Gingrich.

    But he’d vote for Romney over Obama.

  49. 49
    YellowJournalism says:

    I’ve posted before about how allowing my grandmother to die caused a huge rift in the family. Thankfully, her doctor wasn’t an asshole like the one described above and was extremely supportive and patient with us, even the wackadoos who came out of the woodwork to “have their say” and try to stop us from following through with grandma’s wishes.

  50. 50
    Svensker says:

    If you google it, you’ll see there was an article in a major Brit paper that said Dutch hospitals were doing more euthanasia than had been anticipated. It then got picked up by a whole bunch of right wing “pro-life” places and Santorum is quoting almost exactly from them.

    In fairness, apparently it is enough of a concern that a number of academic/governmental bodies have paid attention, but, according to one scholarly account I found, the problem is defining “euthanasia”. If you define it as “not giving extraordinary procedures to a dying person” (i.e., what Living Wills basically say — do not resuscitate, etc.) then the Dutch rate is high as Rick says. However, if you define it as “hastening death”, then the rate is quite low. Here’s the study. Beware, right wingers, the study has Canukistani cooties!

  51. 51
    Samara Morgan says:

    @WyldPirate: the difference is that im not perma-banned….yet.
    like i am at NRO and HotAir, Redstate, and PW.
    Cole actually takes crits rather well.
    he must have pretty good self esteem.
    ;)

  52. 52
    gnomedad says:

    but at least they have the rhetorical courage of their convictions to come in here and take the abuse over and over again.

    Um, they can feel free to wimp out and hide; I’m good with that.

  53. 53
    MikeJ says:

    @Soonergrunt: After his racist twaddle the other night I had started to wonder if he’d got a job at ESPN.

  54. 54
    PeakVT says:

    @Micheline: We’re still months away. If a few more factories re-open, Obama will take IA. And the six EVs might not matter.

  55. 55
    gnomedad says:

    @Micheline:
    Jeebus. We need to bring back Civics classes in school and add Logic.

  56. 56
    Micheline says:

    Why are my block quotes looking screwy?

  57. 57
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Micheline:

    But he would still beat Barack Obama by 2 percentage points if the presidential election were today.

    bzzt! false.
    and also within margin of error.
    this is the same sampling error that turned the red wave to beach break in colorado in 2010.
    land line bias.

  58. 58
    Donut says:

    @WyldPirate:

    First, you are delusional. I scanned back through the posts that load up on one page of my lil’ Firefox browser, and I can’t figure out what the fuck you are talking about. Cole has a post way down about the new VA legislation that would force women wanting an abortion to shove an ultrasound wand up their vaginal canals for no fucking reason. Other than that, if you can take offense at the other posts, you are out of your mind.

    Second, why do you bother with this blog if you hate it so much?

  59. 59
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Micheline: because FYWP doesn’t allow paragraph breaks inside a blockquote.

  60. 60
    gravie says:

    One thing I’ve noticed about my conservative friends on Facebook is that they always have to have the last word. They’ll resuscitate dead or dying threads just to do so, which come to think of it fits in nicely with our topic of the day.

  61. 61
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: @JPL:

    I guess I should clarify the quotation. Didn’t intend to suggest that keeping terminally ill patients alive at any cost is always the right, moral, or desirable thing (as Santorum and the Terri Schaivo crazies would have it) — only that we always wish we could have our loved ones around just a little bit longer, even when they’re clearly ready to go.

  62. 62
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Donut: I think in this case he’s whining because I said something mean about our trolls.
    He’s whipping out the “I’m more progressive than YOU” card.

  63. 63
    Wee Bey says:

    @Micheline:

    I wouldn’t spend another moment worrying about that poll.

  64. 64
    Micheline says:

    @Soonergrunt: Oh okay

  65. 65
    PeakVT says:

    I like this post title from the other Cole: Ayatollah Santorum Excommunicates Obama.

  66. 66
    Elizabelle says:

    Gawd, I think the Mustache of Understanding is at it again.

    Here’s the link: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02.....12.html?hp

    and the headline: A Third Voice

    Please tell me if I need to write this ashmole a handwritten note explaining why I cannot continue to read his columns.

    Would love to see what he would have said about FDR or Lincoln. I guess they needed a third party too.

    (Skimming the column, I see that we need moderates because Barack Obama is left-of-center.)

    F*ck Friedman.

    Just f*ck him.

  67. 67
    Micheline says:

    @Wee Bey: But this is Ann Selzer.

  68. 68
    Anya says:

    @WyldPirate: I am sorry that someone pissed in your coffee this Sunday morning. I hope it gets better for you!

  69. 69
    General Stuck says:

    Turned on the MSNBC stream first thing, and see MH Perry, who I adore doing the anchoring, talking to some idiot ex wingnut senator from SC pushing the high gas price Talking point that is going to save the GOP — cause it’s Obama’s fault it cost 80 dollars to fill up your wagon. OH, and informs us the folks in the south are just good murricans concerned about Obama’s spending, which is why they are angry. Yea, right.

    And Santorum is going on about the “elites” like Obama euthanizing babies and shit. I gotta euthanize my computer before permanent brane damage sets in listening and reading this whackjob nonsense. Everything, EVERY fucking THING republicans say is a lie, no exceptions.

  70. 70
    JPL says:

    @PeakVT: From the comments

    That Santorum is even a prospect for the primary is very telling of this nation.

  71. 71
    Mark S. says:

    @MattF:

    Here’s a link to that insanity
    :

    “Most presidents homeschooled their children in the White House.… Parents educated their children because it was their responsibility. Yes, the government can help,” he continued, “but the idea that the federal government should be running schools, frankly much less that the state government should be running schools, is anachronistic.”

    I don’t think even Ron Paul’s crazy enough to abolish public schools. I also love the “Most presidents homeschooled their children.” A hundred years ago? Because there weren’t many schools and they were rich enough to afford tutors? This is his fucking education plan, homeschooling for everyone?

  72. 72

    @R. Porrofatto:

    Dutch reactions:

    The second link seems to be in English. The first, not so much.

  73. 73
    marv says:

    @Viva BrisVegas:
    “Labour is blossoming or dancing where
    The body is not bruised to pleasure soul
    Nor beauty born out of its despair
    Nor blear-eyed wisdom out of midnight oil
    O chestnut tree, great-rooted blossomer
    Are you the leaf, the blossom or the bole?
    O body swayed to music, O brightening glance
    How can we know the dancer from the dance?”

    Used to have that by heart, but now had to look it up to be sure, which was sort of a pleasure, making my way uncertainly down an old familiar trail to the last two glorious lines

  74. 74
    handsmile says:

    Apologies for treading onto Tom Levenson’s bailiwick, but I suspect this is what a Dutch “death panel” must look like:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.....ls_017.jpg

  75. 75
    General Stuck says:

    And the cherry on top, as wildypeerat drops in, delivering one of his patented anal fixated metaphors. somebody shooot meh.

  76. 76
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    Here is an academic paper on euthanasia in the Netherlands. Let’s just say that unless things have changed radically since 2005, Rih is full of shih.

    Also, I recently found out that my 90 y/o grandmother has a stash of pills that she is keeping in case she “needs” them. She has had some health issues over the past couple of year that have made her rather miserable and hasn’t used them, so it is obvious that she isn’t interested in checking out prematurely. My guess is that they would come into play if anything happened that would cause her to need to move out of her home.

    @WyldPirate: Dude, you seem like you have been pissed off ever since you got called out for your comments the other night. Sometimes accepting that one fucked up and then moving on is the way to go.

  77. 77
    Donut says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    So, you are a bad man for having opinions about trolls based on your, uh, actual reading of the shit they fill up the moderation filter with.

    Duly noted. I will alert the media.

  78. 78
    Mark S. says:

    @Mark S.:

    Looking at the comments at that article, do only the stupidest wingnuts comment at newspaper sites? No wonder newspaper editors and ombudsmen think this country is a band of raving right wing lunatics and skew their coverage accordingly.

  79. 79
    cmorenc says:

    @MattF:

    Also, Santorum on public schools. No, no double meaning intended and he says Federal and State involvement in education is an anachronism. Thereby losing pretty much the entire middle-class suburban electorate, which is no mean feat.

    Unfortunately, there IS a widespread, active effort by a coalition of the religious right/extreme small government conservatives to incrementally undermine and destroy public schools by:
    1) defunding traditional public schools;
    2) diverting funding to privately run charter schools;
    3) increasing the eligibility of private sectarian charter schools to receive charter school funding from the state;
    4) over time, draining off an increasing proportion of children into private charter and sectarian schools, leaving a decreasing residue of increasingly low-income low-performing kids in the public schools.

    The two branches of this coalition have somewhat different, and even conflicting end-games in mind:
    – the religious right wants (their vision of) God and religious valued brought back explicitly into education, the way it was before various mid-20th century US Supreme Court decisions required separation of public education and religious teaching (except “released time”);
    – the extreme small-government wants to eliminate the obligation of any taxpayer to support education of other people’s children, under the theory that you should only have to pay for services you use, not for others.

    The only thing unusual about Santorum is that he’s more frankly up-front about what he’s up to than many of the GOP legislators, county commissioners, school board members, etc. who are incrementally working for these same exact goals, except burying them under Frank Luntz-inspired layers of bullshit in their public rhetoric to distract from their real end-game goals.

  80. 80
    Gwangung says:

    @Soonergrunt: Well, of course. Typical, when they slew racist bilge of their own. They’re not very progressive at all when they’re dealing with nonwhite people.

  81. 81
    debit says:

    I am almost tempted to unpie WyldPirate to see what has caused his squid cloud of butthurt this time, but shall resist. Sometimes it’s more entertaining to guess.

  82. 82
    WyldPirate says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    My fee-fees aren’t hurt at all. I’m simply making an observation that most of you are full of shit WRT to your claims of openness, acceptance and diversity of opinion.

    Thanks for living down to my observation with your reply. I suppose you got some lifer juice in you and it changed your “rhetorical courage of their convictions” ‘tude you started with above.

  83. 83
    handsmile says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: (#76)

    “Shick”? Rih’s no razor boy.

    Appreciate the link to the Dutch euthanasia study. But facts, data, peer review: just more elite secular propaganda.

  84. 84
    JPL says:

    @PeakVT: Thanks again for the link. I don’t read Juan enough. He has an interesting post on Iran, US relations. Most of the information we all know but a refresher course is always good. link Personally, I think the video was powerful enough without the last minute but that could just be me. Persepolis was a great movie on that time period, too.

  85. 85
    Donut says:

    @debit:

    You’re not missing anything you can’t glean from context, but here is the first nugget of wisdom:

    “Interesting that in the first five posts on a “progressive” or “liberal” blog—where the majority of the denizens yak constantly about their acceptance of this group or that and their openness to giving a hearing to different ideas—-three contain some variation of snarky dismissiveness towards some of the core principles liberals/progressives claim to be so proud of.”

    If you go back five posts, you just about land on Cole’s thread about the new ultrasound legislation in VA that looks likely to actually be made law. Saying that the religious nuts who are flogging this bill are fucked up people is “snarky dismissiveness” of democratic/Democratic principles, I guess. I’m not sure which Democratic party it is that Wyld Pirate is talking about, but the one I have voted for all my adult life is the one that has defended the right to privacy and access to contraception for adult women lo these last 40+ years.

    Or he’s just mad that Soonergrunt wasn’t nice to the trolls?

    Whatever. I have fresh bacon waiting for me. Gotta go.

  86. 86
    Cliff in NH says:

    @Micheline:
    @Soonergrunt:

    because FYWP doesn’t allow paragraph breaks inside a blockquote.

    to make paragraphs in a blockquote you have to put 2 underscores inbetween the paragraphs to continue the blockquote

  87. 87

    @PeakVT:

    Nice essay! [naturally]

    Juan Cole has a point: Ayatollah Santorum.

  88. 88
    General Stuck says:

    @WyldPirate:

    My fee-fees aren’t hurt at all. I’m simply making an observation that most of you are full of shit WRT to your claims of openness, acceptance and diversity of opinion.

    Oh goody, a both sides do it quip. Are you fucking CNN, or what?

  89. 89
    gwangung says:

    @WyldPirate: Y’all have a lot of gall to say that after all the bilge you spewed.

    Then again, most faux progressives/liberals are that shallow and hypocritical. Talk about “dismissive of core principles”….

  90. 90
  91. 91
    Mark S. says:

    Someone mentioned this in comments a day or two ago, but McMegan’s views on abortion:

    I think that abortion should be legal, but I also think that it should be a last resort, and I’m all for the government using any non-coercive methods it can to encourage women to carry their pregnancy to term, including things that will make them feel bad about aborting. I think, for example, that sonograms should be mandatory before termination, I’m in favor of waiting periods and parental notification laws, and I’m agnostic on spousal notification.

    and in response to objections from the peanut gallery:

    Ever had an abortion? Considerably more invasive than a trans-vaginal ultrasound. In fact, there are lots of worse things that happen in women’s health clinics; be glad you haven’t experienced any of them.

    Does libertarianism hold that the government should make exercising one’s liberties as difficult as possible? Is there any Republican policy that she won’t defend? Does she have any empathy for any human being not called Megan McBarble?

  92. 92
    Cliff in NH says:

    so something like this will work:

    Iowa men, young people propel Paul
    __
    The Republican candidate who does best in Iowa matchups against Barack Obama is Ron Paul, a three-time presidential candidate and a libertarian-leaning congressman from Texas.
    __
    “Ron Paul lives,” said Register pollster J. Ann Selzer.
    __
    His popularity surprised Selzer, but the poll data line up with last year’s Iowa Poll at this time — same proportion of young people, same proportion of Republicans.

    etc etc…

    edit: why is the code tag changing things inside it?!
    those em’s are in the edit window as underscores weird, FYWP

  93. 93
    Jennifer says:

    Uh…the Pirate has a point.

    A few nights ago I got piled on for making the observation that Whitney Houston had a great voice but that her material never really did it for me. A couple of commenters carried on a conversation as if I wasn’t there bemoaning “contrarianism” in RIP threads, as if to state that you weren’t a huge fan of the work of the recently deceased was being “contrarian;” as if only pretending to have been in awe of his or her talents/career/life is acceptable. One commenter went so far as to make a personal attack to the effect that they hoped they were around when I die so they could post something about how they weren’t ever a fan of mine. Of course, if I live a natural lifespan, this commenter will be out of adolescence by the time I kick and hopefully will no longer feel the need to spring to the defense of dead people they never knew by trash talking other dead people they never knew; if not, well, I’ll be dead so I can’t see what difference it will make if some anonymous internet person says ugly things. This reaction was in response to a pretty mild statement about the work of someone who NO ONE in the thread had ever known personally.

    I don’t know enough about the Pirate’s history here to say whether he/she is known for trolling or whatnot, but it absolutely is a fact that there are those who comment here who seem to think they’ve been appointed hall monitors to enforce conformity of opinion/discussion.

    Now let the pile-on begin.

  94. 94
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mark S.:

    Does libertarianism hold that the government should make exercising one’s liberties as difficult as possible?

    In her mind, yes.

    Is there any Republican policy that she won’t defend?

    Doubtful.

    Does she have any empathy for any human being not called Megan McBarble?

    No.

  95. 95
    Wee Bey says:

    Obama will win Iowa.

  96. 96
    gwangung says:

    @Jennifer:

    Uh…the Pirate has a point.

    Would have more of a point if they didn’t spew racist points of their own.

    As it is, they’re hypocritical and lack self awareness.

  97. 97

    RIck Santorum was just on Face The Nation coming out against amniocentesis.

    Yes, your modern Republican Party is SO pro-life, they are actually against amniocentesis. I am still stunned.

  98. 98
    The Fat Kate Middleton says:

    @cmorenc:
    Great comment. And don’t forget how NCLB played (plays) a role in all of that.

  99. 99
    Cermet says:

    @JPL: Very sorry for your loss; I too just lost my mother (90) to a similar issue/cause but at least it was quick (leass than ten days and she was fairly with it for four of those days. Very glad she went quick after stopping food; that would have been very hard on us if she had continued for some time. We need to change the law and allow people to die with dignity.

  100. 100
    General Stuck says:

    @Jennifer:

    Completely irrelevant to what Wildy is talking about. With RIP threads, it is the timing that some folks object to. Critiquing the life of a celebrity while the body is still warm. I didn’t have a problem with your commentary on the WH Rip thread, but the complaint wasn’t about diversity of opinion

  101. 101
    Shalimar says:

    @Samara Morgan: ROFL. How insane do you have to be to look at the last 60 years of history and think “Oh my God, the Birchers were right!!!!!”

  102. 102
    Soonergrunt says:

    @WyldPirate: The difference between our conservatie trolls and you, is that they are smart enough to keep their racism hidden, at least a little bit. As far as your opinion of me, I do not now, nor have I ever given a damn about the opinion of a racist bigot like yourself. Most people, but not you apparently, when confronted with their unacceptable behavior, take the correction and move on. You doubled down and are continuing to do so.
    I hate on people for what they’ve done or said as individuals, which is not remotely the same as your racism, nor is it the same as rejecting diversity of opinion. I’ve heard their opinions, and rejected them for the stupidity behind them. You, however, would reject them out of hand if the speaker came from a certain ethnic group.

  103. 103
    IM says:

    @Linda Featheringill:

    That is difficult question. Abortin was illegal im Germany prior but somewaht lenientyl punished. More to the point, the conviction rates were quite low – I think a few thousand cases each year. But is was commonly assumed that the number of (illegal abortions) was very high. One argument I read pointed out that there were several hundert thousand misscarriages in hospitals each year and that you could assume that most of them were abortions.

    After 1933 or 1934, abortions were punished more harshly, That said, the number of convictions did not really rise. And I am sure that the social mores did not really change ot the indirect indicators like the misscarriages.

  104. 104
    The Fat Kate Middleton says:

    @Cermet: and JPL: my condolences to both your families. My FIL died at age 93, but his age did make the loss any less hard to bear for my husband.

  105. 105
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Cliff in NH:

    How did you get your blockquote to turn chartreuse?

  106. 106
    Chyron HR says:

    @WyldPirate:

    Why do you accuse me of racism just because I obsessively refer to the President as “Black black blackity black nig knicker Jesus”?

    It is a mystery! Somebody call Scooby-Doo.

  107. 107
    Maude says:

    @Jennifer:
    People who like a celebrity who dies get upset when someone says something a bit negative.

  108. 108
    JPL says:

    @Cermet: Thank you and all the posters for their comments. Hospice can use drugs now which in combination are called terminal sedation, (terrible name btw)that allow the dying process without undue pain.
    Santorum would certainly outlaw that which is why he can’t become president. I know those in cross over states think it’s worth voting for him but I can’t and won’t take the chance.

  109. 109
    Benjamin Franklin says:

    Ginsburg to retire 2015…..

    http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US.....dailybrief

  110. 110
    harlana says:

    @Southern Beale: um, he also disagrees with pregnancy testing, from what i heard on MH Perry’s show this morning

    can we just cut to the chase here: Santorum wants to return to the times when women were the property of men. Isn’t that what we’re really talking about here?

    that said, if he’s the nom, i LOVE it!

  111. 111
    jackmac says:

    Soonergrunt: “Veritas, makewi, and BoB may be innumerate, semi-literate fuckwits with the same grasp of logic as dead bacteria, and all of them possessed by bizarre sexual fetishes, but at least they have the rhetorical courage of their convictions to come in here and take the abuse over and over again.”

    And it is well-deserved abuse, too.

  112. 112
    Mark S. says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    It’s an interesting political philosophy. She’s opposed to any government action that might help people but she’s in favor of actions that hinder people’s rights. She strips libertarianism of anything that might be appealing to it.

  113. 113
    Jennifer says:

    @General Stuck: The issue there is that saying you weren’t a fan of the type of material an artist chose to perform isn’t critiquing their life. Critiquing Houston’s life would have waded into a lot of other stuff, which I’m not going to wade into. It’s kind of beyond silly for anyone to get worked up about that and describe it as “corpse pissing”. There’s a lot of pretty obvious observations that could be made about this particular celebrity’s life that would be both true and unkind to their memory, but none of those were made, and still panties got all in a twist.

  114. 114
    RSA says:

    @Mark S.: McMegan:

    I’m all for the government using any non-coercive methods it can to encourage women to carry their pregnancy to term, including things that will make them feel bad about aborting

    TBogg did nail that one. Further, it’s nice how libertarians’ abhorrence of the initiation of force can be so tightly compartmentalized to exclude transvaginal ultrasounds.

  115. 115
    General Stuck says:

    @Maude:

    Yes, and I liked Whitney Houston, but didn’t find simply critiquing her music as offensive, like some of the very nasty personal stuff that gets posted on RIP threads.

  116. 116
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @General Stuck: Correct on both counts. FWIW, I agree with Jennifer that much of Houston’s work – at least the work that got mainstream radio play – was not worthy of her talents. Also, in that particular thread, the contrarian tendency was rather mild, but it does come out in every RIP thread. Jennifer is perfectly entitled to hold her opinions and express her opinions. Others, however, are just as entitled to form and express opinions of their own based on her actions.

  117. 117
    PaulW says:

    Open Thread request: what servers are you playing your Jedis on SW:TOR?

  118. 118
    Jewish Steel says:

    @handsmile: Guilty! For reasons of smoking too many cheap cigars. We’ll give you time to wrap up your affairs and say goodbye to your dogs.

  119. 119
    R. Porrofatto says:

    @Linda Featheringill:
    What’s your point? The first link is a “Dutch reaction” and Google translate is your friend. And the second is in English written by a Dutch commenter.

  120. 120
    PeakVT says:

    @JPL: YW. I saw the US-Iran post but haven’t gotten to it yet. My view is that the US really needs to find a way to mend relations with Iran. It will be the dominant power in the Persian Gulf in the long run, and the two countries have more in common than the US does with the monarchies on the other side of the gulf. But, as with so many other policies, the prospect of changing course is hopeless right now.

  121. 121
    General Stuck says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Jennifer is perfectly entitled to hold her opinions and express her opinions. Others, however, are just as entitled to form and express opinions of their own based on her actions.

    I agree.

  122. 122
    harlana says:

    @wvng: i have never presumed, btw, nor claimed that any of my comments are “useful”

  123. 123

    @Southern Beale:

    Rick Santorum was just on Face The Nation coming out against amniocentesis.

    I think that Freud would say that Rick is harboring resentment and probably anger towards his daughter with the severe medical problems. These feelings are naturally unacceptable. So he tamps his feelings down and tries to squelch them in other people as well.

    In the case of amniocentesis: If Rick subconsciously wishes his wife had aborted this particular pregnancy, he would assume that everyone else wishes for termination of less-than-perfect pregnancies. And if he is very busy trying to erase the very idea of abortion, he must also erase the practice of amniocentesis.

    I think that Rick doesn’t handle duality well.

  124. 124
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Donut: A few days ago, WP said something about how President Obama doesn’t fight for the things he says he does, because he “jews himself down” before he ever begins to negotiate with the other side or words to that effect.
    He was then pounced upon by the other commenters in the thread, and instead of apologizing, or taking the community correction, he attacked, claiming that his behavior was the same bashing on religion and people of faith that he sees people here doing all the time. Multiple commenters pointed out to him multiple times that “Jews as cheap money grubbers” is an ethnic, not a religious stereotype, but he kept doubling down. As a side note, even as I watched that occur in real time, I didn’t jump in, because it felt that it was more appropriate for the community to issue the correction and uphold community standards, especially as they were doing a good job of it. I also didn’t say anything since because it wasn’t my business. It is now, because he has decided to drag me into it.
    WP–you were wrong then, and you are wrong now. This silly stunt of yours, trying to equate something I’ve said about people’s behavior and their political beliefs is not in any way, shape, or form, remotely like your spew of the other night. I had hoped that was a one time incident where somebody had said something inappropriate, gotten corrected, and moved on having conformed his conduct to community-enforced standards, but that seems to not be the case here. You were wrong in the other thread, and attacking me or anyone else now doesn’t change that one iota.
    It’s not my house. I don’t ban people here. I have no reason to believe that I can’t, but as the owner doesn’t do so, neither do I. John’s a hell of a lot more tolerant than I am in that respect, and if it were my house, you’d have been gone last week. Pull your head out of your ass.

  125. 125
    PeakVT says:

    @Benjamin Franklin: Interesting, though the title is a little misleading since it’s just somebody’s (well-informed) speculation.

  126. 126

    @Linda Featheringill:

    I’m not going to do armchair psychoanalysis on Rick Santorum. I think he’s a fucking crackpot and I don’t care why.

    Let’s hope he gets the nomination. Obama in a landslide!

  127. 127
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @harlana: Are comments supposed to be useful? Many of us will have to rethink our participation on this here blog.

  128. 128
    Gretchen says:

    Douthat this morning says that there are more abortions in blue states with few restrictions than in red states with many restrictions. He seems to think there’s a point in there somewhere.

  129. 129
    Gretchen says:

    Douthat this morning says that there are more abortions in blue states with few restrictions than in red states with many restrictions. He seems to think there’s a point in there somewhere.

  130. 130
    Cermet says:

    @WyldPirate: When did replying and mocking statements mean we prevent people from speaking here? If what you say is easy to mock, it is most likely a stupid comment. If mocking is baseless, call them on it. The bases of your complaint appears silly and even childess – you are upset because people will make fun of a post you made and as a result, they are underminning liberal principles? Boy, that is a really stupid claim unless you can support it with a example.
    By the way, I have said some very stupid things in the past, accepted correction, and didn’t hesitate to apologize.

  131. 131

    @harlana: OT, but look on ebay for pearls. You can get some very decent looking strands (from Asia)that will cost you more in shipping that the purchase price. at least that was the case 5 years ago. I get lots of compliments on mine. They don’t look like they’re from Gumps but they don’t look like a cracker jack prize either.

    @Omnes Omnibus: I certainly will need to do so, if that’s the case.

  132. 132
    Benjamin Franklin says:

    @PeakVT:

    It’s not confirmed, but it has been her wish to retire for some time, now.

  133. 133
    Karl The Crap Blog Detective says:

    @Soonergrunt:
    Since I’ve started to read this blog by a South American woman living in Netherlands I’ve found myself getting increasingly cranky when people put Dutch on pedestal as some amazingly enlightened and tolerant people.

  134. 134

    Alabama Senator:

    God wants teachers to be underpaid!

    “It’s a Biblical principle. If you double a teacher’s pay scale, you’ll attract people who aren’t called to teach.”

    These people are psychos.

  135. 135
    WereBear says:

    @Viva BrisVegas: Thanks. Loved it.

    Maybe God loved Barney Frank enough that Sh/e saw his wish for Newt, and raised it into Rick Santorum.

    For God so loved them all he gave them Santorum.

    No wait, that doesn’t sound right.

  136. 136
    Soonergrunt says:

    @PaulW: Sith Wyrm

  137. 137
    gwangung says:

    @Soonergrunt: And let’s not forget the Jeremy Lin thread.

  138. 138
    Jennifer says:

    @Southern Beale: We could say the same of Senators, no? Strip away the insider trading benefits, lobbyist gifts, honoraria & etc. and you’d only attract those who were called to public service.

  139. 139
    gene108 says:

    The wife of fiercely pro-life presidential hopeful Rick Santorum had a six-year love affair with an abortion doctor, 40 years her senior – who, incredibly, delivered her as a baby – it has emerged. Karen Santorum, 51, who, like her husband, opposes abortion even in cases of rape and doesn’t believe in using birth control, lived with Pittsburgh abortion pioneer Dr Thomas E. Allen for most of her 20s in the 1980s. When she met Dr Allen, Mrs Santorum, who then went by the name Karen Garver, was a 22-year-old nursing student who shared his liberal views on abortion and enjoyed life as the younger lover of the 63-year-old divorcee and man-about-town, according to friends. The image of Mrs Santorum living with her progressive playboy boyfriend stands in sharp contrast to the matronly devout Catholic mother of seven that she plays on the campaign trail.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new.....z1mqRzEmfz

    I guess she really changed her views.

    “The doctors said they were talking about a matter of hours or a day or two before risking sepsis and both of them might die,” Santorum said. “Obviously, if it was a choice of whether both Karen and the child are going to die or just the child is going to die, I mean it’s a pretty easy call.”

    http://articles.philly.com/199.....traction/3

    Interesting that Rick would consider an abortion to save his wife, but still goes on and on about outlawing it for every one else.

    Just a note, I’ve read where Karen didn’t have an abortion, since the labor wasn’t induced but happened naturally as she rejected the fetus.

    I’m not doctor, but I guess it may not have been an actual abortion.

    It’s just interesting Santorum gets a pass for saying he’d be O.K. with something for himself, but wants to outlaw for everyone else: An abortion to save the life of the mother.

  140. 140
    Jewish Steel says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    “jews himself down”

    Well, I’m glad I missed that.

    But really, you libs should stop trampling his rights.

  141. 141
    JD Rhoades says:

    @Micheline:

    From the story:

    Iowa is considered a swing state in the general election, critical to Obama’s re-election or victory by the Republican nominee.

    By whom? Iowans?

  142. 142
    debit says:

    @Soonergrunt: Cole does sometimes give people a time out when they can’t seem to muster up any self control. I’m just saying.

  143. 143
    Maude says:

    @General Stuck:
    Wait until we kick the bucket. RIP will be the last thing we’d hear. More like good riddance. (polite version for a Sunday morning)

  144. 144
    General Stuck says:

    @Maude:

    LOL, no doubt :)

  145. 145
    Suffern ACE says:

    @RSA – Mild forms of torture are ok, too, I guess. As long ad they don’t leave marks.

  146. 146
    WyldPirate says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I’m not pissed off about anything, OO and I have “moved on” from it.

    What I’m talking about WRT to my first post on this thread is endemic to the culture of this blog. Look at the pejorative terms soonergrunt uses in his post about the “the trolls”. It’s a daily parade of derision toward anything that differs from the accepted “group think” of the blog.

    Nothing that happens here is really outside the norms of human nature. Humans are tribal/pack animals and are suspicious of people and cultures that are different. People here use pejorative terms here to describe our enemies much like soldiers use them: to dehumanize them so we can be more comfortable with ourselves emotionally for saying or doing hurtful things to other human beings.

    Mostly I don’t give a fuck one way or another about this sort of shit. Hell, I’m guilty of it myself, but I do take some pleasure in pointing out my own and others foibles. I just find it amusing most of the time that a bunch of really smart folks don’t recognize that they often do the very thing the claim to deplore. The don’t recognize it because it is the norm for the group they identify with and to act outside of the “norm” for accepted group appearance or behavior risks attack and rejection. This is something many of the posters here are terrified of doing because most people want to fit in and fell like the belong to the BJ tribe.

    This

  147. 147
    Gretchen says:

    @Linda Featheringill:
    And Santorum’s long, childless affair with an abortion doctor during her 20’s probably has something to do with his rage about women having premarital sex without consequences, and abortion. I just wish he’d keep his psychological problems to himself instead of trying to inflict them on the nation.

  148. 148
    Cliff in NH says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Thats the code tag which is supposed to not change the format of whatever is inside it for discussing code and other things with formatting you want preserved

  149. 149
    Jewish Steel says:

    @Micheline: This poll is so out of step with other recent polls I’d be inclined to label it Concern Polling.

  150. 150
    gene108 says:

    @Jewish Steel:

    Eh…it’s Iowa…I don’t expect a 1984-style beat-down of Santorum or Romney.

    The right-wing wurlitzer will keep enough of the population agitated against Obama to keep that from happening, plus there will be a contingent of low-info voters, who look at the current state of the economy and decide it hasn’t been good enough and will vote Republican for change’s sake.

    What would be interesting is how Obama does against Romney in Michigan and Mass. and how he doe against Santorum in PA.

  151. 151
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Jennifer:
    For what it’s worth, I agree with you about Whitney Houston. Hers was a voice for the ages, and she deserved her posthumous tributes. But she wasn’t a songwriter herself, and her choice of material was unexceptional, even if it’s harsh to say that she sang only what Clive Davis told her to sing.

    And she did her biggest hit — her cover of I Will Always Love You — all wrong. It is the polar opposite of Dolly Parton’s own performance, which understands that these are words uttered in hushed and regretful tones; Whitney was bellowing them at you as though from the far end of a football field, which always makes me cringe.

  152. 152
    GregB says:

    I am tired of the so-called open minded liberals not embracing the opinions and ideas of avowed fascists, racists and theocrats.

    How dare they not embrace such opinions uncritically?

  153. 153
    TooManyJens says:

    I don’t think that respect for dishonest, poorly-reasoned, racist, fact-resistant, incoherent, or just plain mean views is actually meant to be a progressive virtue. Call me crazy.

  154. 154
    Soonergrunt says:

    @GregB: I know, right?

  155. 155
    Gretchen says:

    @gene108:
    The pictures to the article you linked are telling. Karen looks relaxed an happy wth her doctor boyfriend, while literally gritting her teeth with her husband’s hand on her shoulder. She paid a high price for wanting to have children. I’ll bet he’s been shaming and “forgiving her” their whole marriage.

  156. 156
    Judas Escargot, Your Postmodern Neighbor says:

    @Micheline:

    Iowa. Yet another agrarian state that couldn’t exist in its current form without massive federal subsidies.

    As I’ve said many times before, “they” (ie those of a certain rightwing mindset) can’t win: Because if they get what they say they want, reality will destroy them.

    Hunter S Thompson’s old line about the wave crashing on the shore and breaking has been on my mind a lot these days…

  157. 157
    300baud says:

    @wvng:

    Here’s what seems to be a reasonable summary of the current situation in the Netherlands:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.....etherlands

  158. 158
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @GregB:

    Yeah, really frosts me, too.

  159. 159
    Benjamin Franklin says:

    The Vatican-2012 !!!!!!

    Theocracy Rules ! Sharia Sucks…..more lube please.

  160. 160
    WyldPirate says:

    @Donut:

    I see where the problem is, Donut: it was how I phrased the start of my first comment.

    I didn’t intend to refer to the five front page posts prior to or including this one. What I should have written was the first five comments in this thread.

    My bad and sorry for the confusion. I’m typing on a tablet and I haven’t quite mastered scrolling inside a dialog box without scrolling the whole frigging page. This makes editing what I write-which I’m not prone to do even though I should–more of a pain in the ass.

  161. 161
    Jewish Steel says:

    I’ll do some concern polling of my own here and note via Benen:

    According to the Bangor Daily News’ unofficial tally, Romney’s margin has shrunk to 117 votes statewide.

    Ronmentum.

  162. 162
    amk says:

    @WyldPirate: Nice false equivalencies. Do you troll this much on wingnut blogs too ? I bet not. They’d kick you out before you can say raygun.

  163. 163
    gwangung says:

    @WyldPirate: It would help if you indeed went and sinned no more, instead of expecting wingnut-like forgiveness.

  164. 164
    Schlemizel says:

    @Donut:

    I assume it comes here because it enjoys the attention it garners. I assume, like the hit-n-run trolls that attack very late in threads if we ignore it it will just go away.

  165. 165
    Cliff in NH says:

    Death Panels!

    Have you seen the latest santorum dripping out of Santorum?

    http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com.....-abortions

    Rick Santorum accused President Obama of requiring free prenatal testing in the health care plan he signed in 2010 because it would detect if children were disabled, encourage more abortions and save money.
    __
    “One of the things that you don’t know about ObamaCare in one of the mandates is they require free prenatal testing,” Santorum began telling about 400 people here. “Why? Because free prenatal testing ends up in more abortions and, therefore, less care that has to be done, because we cull the ranks of the disabled in our society. That too is part of ObamaCare — another hidden message as to what president Obama thinks of those who are less able than the elites who want to govern our country.”

    I’d like to hear him square that statement with ‘Obamacares’ forbidding discrimination in healthcare based on pre-existing conditions.

  166. 166
    Benjamin Franklin says:

    @amk:

    Assuming facts; not in evidence.

  167. 167
    Amir Khalid says:

    @TooManyJens:
    You’re crazy. Don’t you realize that if you keep mocking views that are dishonest, poorly-reasoned, racist, fact-resistant, incoherent, or just plain mean, you are depriving Balloon Juice commenters who hold them of a fair chance to convince the rest of us?

  168. 168
    patrick II says:

    @cmorenc:

    Well said. I would only add that there is one other group that wants to undermine public education and that is the profiteers. People who see the opportunity for large profits in educational franchises. They use the two groups you mention, but their end motive is profit, not religious indoctrination or philosophical rigidity.

  169. 169
    WyldPirate says:

    Chyron HR:

    I see you’re up early huffing glue this morning and the voices inside your head are speaking to you. Good for you…

  170. 170
    amk says:

    @Jewish Steel: Excellent. Isn’t it time for some ronmentum finally ? Think of his clueless kids’ base. Every other fucker had had his moment of sunshine (which basically killed these vermins).

  171. 171
    Birthmarker says:

    Can anyone give me a very short Cliff’s Notes version of the Putin controversy? I know the basic facts, up to suspected election fraud and continuing riots. What I don’t know is how he fell from the grace of being the idealized Russian man to being rioted against. Or are the objectors just a vocal minority while most Russians are still supportive of him?

    BTW I thought the Wiki article on him is a bit poorly done. For one thing it doesn’t update his current approval ratings.

  172. 172
    Jewish Steel says:

    @amk: Yeah, I’ve been wondering about that. Why no NotRomney love for Paul? Too dovey? Too goldy? THC-y?

  173. 173
    Schlemizel says:

    @Cliff in NH:
    OK, so now you have displayed a trick I have wished I could do. How do you get WP to actually print the stuff you put inside the greater than and less than symbols?

    Thanks in advance

  174. 174
    IM says:

    I don’t really see anything remarkable about the first five comments on this thread.

  175. 175
    Elizabelle says:

    The Things that Anthony Shadid Taught Me

    http://www.theatlantic.com/int.....me/253254/

  176. 176
    amk says:

    @Birthmarker: putin is still winning it by landslide, vote rigging or not.

  177. 177
    TG Chicago says:

    This Week had some tweets scrolling across the bottom of the screen during the roundtable. It was pretty distracting.

    Worst of all, one of the tweets they chose to put up referred to the President of the United States as “B-Ho”.

    Stay classy, This Week.

  178. 178
    PeakVT says:

    @Birthmarker: I think a lot of it has to do with how Putin and Medvedev agreed to swap spots for this years election. It was just too high-handed, and ham-handed.

  179. 179
    tomvox1 says:

    @Elizabelle:

    Yes, I saw that “column” too and practically puked up my bacon & eggs. I think Tommy “Married Well” Mustache should be sentenced to death by 300 million paper cuts made by Social Security cards.

  180. 180
    scav says:

    @Birthmarker: Not entirely sure for the actual levels of support, but there’s certainly a whiff that a fair bit of his idealization has been more rooted in the PR and spin level of the atmosphere than anything more firmly grounded. If your police are worried about the legal status of legos, kinder toys and teddy bears carrying placards . . . while your leading man is planting greek vases so he can discover them later and exposing his pecs in sleds (hubba hubba). . . . it somehow juuuusstt smells more of Hollywood than DC (and it’s not as though DC doesn’t rank high made for PR scale).

  181. 181
    Cliff in NH says:

    @Schlemizel:

    That’s the Code tag, which you have to use to get code to show up as plaintext

    Can’t put the code tag inside a code tag, or I’d show you.

  182. 182
    scav says:

    @IM: Yeah, I didn’t get the memo on licit liberal or progressive opinions on the odor of bear shit and the poetry of Yeats. I may need an upgrade.

  183. 183
    Cermet says:

    @GregB: Hold on there – some of those types do have an idea of value once. hitler, for instance – that pile of shit hitler had one outstanding idea that I wish a few supreme court justices would follow – putting a gun into his mouth and pulling the trigger. Wish people around that monster hadn’t interfered in the 1920’s when he was suicidal after his niece had commented suicide due to his sexual advances/rape(?).

  184. 184
    Bruce S says:

    “innumerate, semi-literate fuckwits with the same grasp of logic as dead bacteria, and all of them possessed by bizarre sexual fetishes”

    Some say serial killers, even.

  185. 185
    Schlemizel says:

    @Cliff in NH:
    I was afraid of that, can you explain it or link to a page that shows it? I was trying to help someone here a week or two ago with blockquote & could not show them, don’t know if telling them made enough sense and never heard if it worked for them.

  186. 186
    Spaghetti Lee says:

    You know, Iowa has voted Democratic in presidential elections 3 times out of the last 5. They also kept all their Dem congressmen last cycle while plenty of other midwestern states were dumping theirs, so I wouldn’t be too concerned.

    And WyldPirate sounds like a drunk, angry David Brooks. Why can’t us mean liberals stop being so partisan and group-thinky and just start taking advice from racist, ignorant idiots? I don’t ignore conservative opinions because I can’t handle diverse views, I ignore them because they’re bullshit.

  187. 187
    Joel says:

    @WyldPirate: You have been FOS for some time, now. Glad that it’s leaking out.

  188. 188
    Cermet says:

    @Birthmarker: Putin = KGB (now called FSB, by the way; he is a so-called ex-colonel)If you have followed his career, he serves maximum terms as president taking full power (making the prime minister a lackey), then runs as prime minister (making the president a lackey), takes total power, and is now running to be president – rinse, repeat and so on until …?.

  189. 189
    Onihanzo says:

    @Birthmarker: Here’s a good start.

    And the Nashi movement compounds the creepy.

  190. 190
    harlana says:

    @Gretchen: you may have a point there! but then, if that were true, imagine what her life with him has been like. and doesn’t he keep knocking her up even though she appears to have problem pregnancies (7 kids!) perhaps that is part of her retribution, to sire as many Santorums as possible before she finally expires.

    i used to work with a guy, successful lawyer actually, whose wife’s uterus had to be sown up for each pregnancy so she could carry it to term. last i knew, they had 5 kids – she home-schooled all of them. i don’t know what church they went to but it was one of those weird ones. i don’t know that they will EVER practice birth control, but for her sake, i sure hope so!

    and not to diss Catholic men, but the two i was involved with (once in my 20’s and another in my 40’s) were both psychotic.

  191. 191
    Yutsano says:

    @Spaghetti Lee: By the time the counting gets to Iowa it may not matter much anyway. If Obama wins PA again it’s as over as it was in 2008 except for the shouting. But that’s not horseracey enough for the media harlots, so ginned up controversy based on outlier polls is the order of the day.

  192. 192
    Rawk Chawk says:

    “Veritas, makewi, and BoB may be innumerate, semi-literate fuckwits with the same grasp of logic as dead bacteria”

    As a front pager, you’re such a classy addition to the roster…

  193. 193
    Cliff in NH says:

    @Schlemizel:

    it’s that button there next to the b-quote button, just use that around any code that doesn’t include the code tag, it also appears to translate comment window shorthand into the code it represents

    testing the code button

    -this has minus signs on either side-
    _this has underscore signs on either side_
    *this has star signs on either side*
    __
    -this has minus signs on either side-
    _this has underscore signs on either side_
    *this has star signs on either side*

    -this has minus signs on either side-
    _this has underscore signs on either side_
    *this has star signs on either side*
    __
    -this has minus signs on either side-
    _this has underscore signs on either side_
    *this has star signs on either side*

    edit: well that’s not quite how I expected that to look

  194. 194
    kindness says:

    One thing that has become more apparent here at BJ is that even though not everyone is on the same page wrt any one issue or other many here expect others to be on their page and when they aren’t they get shit for it. I myself have been on both sides of that observation. Hey, just because I realize an apparent paradox/contradiction doesn’t mean this DFH is immune from committing the same sin.

    Might just be the nature of the blog beast.

  195. 195
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @PeakVT:

    Needs a Cavuto mark, viz:

    Ruth Bader Ginsburg stepping down in 2015?

  196. 196
    WyldPirate says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    Learn how to read or read more closely, Soonergrunt

    First, I did apologize in that thread on more than one occasion. I also stated that what I said was wrong. Some accepted it and some didn’t. I have no problem with that. I can’t unring that bell.

    Second, my point about the religious pejoratives wasn’t that it was equivalent to ethnic-bashing; but that bashing is bashing period. I don’t think one can really sieze “moral high ground” when they point out some offensive remark someone makes and then turn around and say nasty shit about other people or groups. Maybe you feel otherwise. Fine. Opinions differ.

    Lastly, I had no problem with what you wrote to start the open thread. In fact, I thought it was pretty good even though you get your knickers in a knot about one kind of insult yet gratuitously single out three posters by name and stop just short of calling them retards while giving them a back-handed compliment.

  197. 197
    pseudonymous in nc says:

    Does Rih not know that the conservatives are in charge in the Netherlands right now?

    And yes, the inability to call bullshit in very direct ways — I’m guessing that Bullshitifact is preparing a “Mostly True” for this one — is a cancer on American politics.

  198. 198
    Cliff in NH says:

    Testing,FYWP.

  199. 199
    different-church-lady says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    A few days ago, WP said something about how President Obama doesn’t fight for the things he says he does, because he “jews himself down” before he ever begins to negotiate with the other side or words to that effect.
    He was then pounced upon by the other commenters in the thread, and instead of apologizing, or taking the community correction, he attacked, claiming that his behavior was the same bashing on religion and people of faith that he sees people here doing all the time.

    You might be conflating being racist with being a completely clueless arrogant fucking asshole.

    Granted, the line is very fine…

  200. 200
    Yutsano says:

    @pseudonymous in nc: They even dumped their sociallist health care system for a private Swiss style one, although it’s also very heavily regulated and is costing more. Plus the current government hates brown Muslins with the passion of a thousand suns. Rih just wants to get his hate on. I predict Japan is next on his list.

  201. 201
    patrick II says:

    I just saw MSNBC’s new motto flashed on their screen.

    “LIN FORWARD”

  202. 202
    Birthmarker says:

    @Onihanzo: Thanks all. Off to read the links.

  203. 203
    dslak says:

    Statements like “humans are by nature tribal creatures” to justify slighting an entire race or ethnic group is really only a fancier way of saying “Of course I’m a racist . . . everyone is! I’m just man enough to admit to it.”

    And of course, if nobody can help being a racist, that makes being a racist okay, right?

  204. 204
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Cliff in NH:

    Thanks. I’ve always been afraid to touch that button, and now I know why!

  205. 205
    Cassidy says:

    @debit: You couldn’t pay me to un-pie that little chickenshit bigot.

  206. 206

    @Jennifer:
    Let me fill you in on Pirate’s history, then. Pirate’s schtick is to show up on an unrelated thread posting something about how Obama is evil. Pirate’s argument will immediately be taken apart. Pirate will dismiss our counterarguments as Obot conformism. Often Pirate will do so in its very first post before any counterarguments are made. Insults will start flying immediately, and Pirate will respond only to insults with more insults, while making no attempt to follow any argument that disproves its point. This happens a lot. It’s almost the only thing Pirate does, is tell us we’re mindless sheep following Obama off a cliff. Needless to say, that is not taken well.

    People do get histrionic and throw insults around on this blog, but if anything that’s the proof it’s not conformist. Heated arguments fly on all sides, and it’s hard to get universal condemnation. See how you’re getting reasonable answers in this thread.

  207. 207
    Soonergrunt says:

    @WyldPirate:

    Lastly, I had no problem with what you wrote to start the open thread. In fact, I thought it was pretty good even though you get your knickers in a knot about one kind of insult yet gratuitously single out three posters by name and stop just short of calling them retards while giving them a back-handed compliment.

    I’m pretty sure that I didn’t stop short at all. If you are under some mistaken belief that I did, let me disabuse you of that–they are retarded. That is why they are trolls. I also speculated about their sexual proclivities, in case you weren’t smart enough to read that.

  208. 208
    amk says:

    wyldpyrate’s butthurt is understandable. Sooner didn’t name him in the hall of fame. It’s all Sooner’s fault.

  209. 209
    Jewish Steel says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: Ha! The truthiest take downs are the viciousest, I find.

    /What are you looking at? Shakespeare made up words too!

  210. 210

    @Jewish Steel:
    Dude, I am FULL ON cromulent. I am totally behind you.

  211. 211
    handsmile says:

    @Elizabelle: (#174)

    Thank you very much for that link! Tributes and mournful reminiscences on the untimely death of Anthony Shadid are pouring forth.

    Here is one from Salon, “He was our eyes,” in which the writer makes these straightforward assessments:

    “Shalid was quite simply the best mainstream reporter working the most important foreign beat in the world…His death is not just a terrible loss to journalism: it is a loss to America.”

    http://www.salon.com/2012/02/1.....singleton/

    For all this blog laments and denounces the baleful conditions and practices of the Fourth Estate (“Our failed media experiment”), it has been truly disappointing to me that this tragic death of one of its few paragon professionals has received now all of five comments since Thursday.

    And reports such as this on the drumbeats now resounding for yet another Middle East war demonstrate how much Shadid’s knowledge and perspective will be grievously missed:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl.....ary-action

  212. 212
    Smiling Mortician says:

    @Joel: Must confess I do not know what FOS stands for. The best options, via Acronym Finder, seem to be Finger of Suspicion and Fish Odor Syndrome. This is not helping me to understand what you . . . oh, wait.

  213. 213
    trollhattan says:

    Anybody else relishing the promise of two hours of Julianne Moore channeling Caribou Barbie? Ed Harris as Walnuts is likewise welcome.

    I expect the mighty Wurlitzer to churn out metric buttloads of preventive outrage in the weeks before it’s broadcast, adding to our pleasure.

  214. 214
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Smiling Mortician: Fish Odor Syndrome?

  215. 215
    pragmatism says:

    It’s a good sign that things are going well when the trolls create a new standard of conduct for you that true libruls or progressives or whatever must be 100% inclusive and accepting. So transparent.

  216. 216
    burnspbesq says:

    @WyldPirate:

    We apologize most sincerely and abjectly for failing to live up to your lofty expectations.

  217. 217
    Jennifer says:

    Thanks for the primer, Frankensteinbeck – also too, I love your handle. Reminds me of the faux Steinbecks who once sullied our town – a girl whose mother had married Steinbeck’s son after the famous author’s death…the son adopted his new wife’s kids, and now as an adult, this woman writes under the premise that she’s “John Steinbeck’s granddaughter” and in this celebrity-obsessed culture, that’s all most people need to hear (her writing is no great shakes, BTW) to laud her as some kind of genius or something. I always referred to the lot of them as “faux Steinbecks” since they used the name shamelessly for advancement even though none of them (Steinbeck Jr.’s wife included) had ever even met the man.

  218. 218
    Evergreen (formerly Betsy, forever ago) says:

    @Elizabelle:
    The pictures of him with his babies break my heart. Those poor kids and their mom.

    May they be consoled by the outpourings of testimony to his (for lack of a better term) righteousness.

  219. 219
    Smiling Mortician says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I love the internet.

  220. 220
    Amir Khalid says:

    @trollhattan:
    Ed Harris as John McCain, and not Tim Conway? I’m disappointed.

  221. 221
    Jennifer says:

    Wild guess, but I’d say FOS = Full Of Shit.

  222. 222

    @Jennifer:
    Someone referred to me as ‘Frankensteinbeck’ once because my writing is very dark and tragic, but usually about really weird characters and settings. Since I couldn’t dispute his point, I adopted the pseudonym!

    EDIT – It’s a bit funny personally, because I don’t even like Steinbeck’s writing. I admire the Hell out of it, but his endings are tragic and emphasize the pointlessness of life. I strongly like happy endings. I just want characters to bleed to earn them.

  223. 223
    Schlemizel says:

    @amk: wyldpyrate’s butthurt is understandable. Sooner didn’t name him in the hall of fame.

    This exactly! All it appears to want is attention, it does not engage in debate, it shits on a thread with something insulting, when someone responds by correcting its misconceptions (or outright lies) the reply almost invariably includes snide insults. When I post something insulting here it is always on purpose & I welcome snotty replys – they are deserved. But it pretends its fee-fees are hurt and begins to focus only on being insulting. It does not want debate, it wants attention.

  224. 224
    Smiling Mortician says:

    @Jennifer: OK. But I was starting to get comfortable with the whole Fish Odor Syndrome idea.

    Um, that didn’t come out right.

  225. 225
    WyldPirate says:

    @Soonergrunt: calling them retarded and implying they are retarded are two different things you bonehead earth pig.

    I saw no need to touch the sexual proclivities statement you made, but thanks for making the point of my comments in multiple threads. That is the trolls–named by name– make the sanctioned BJ insult list wrt to their sexual proclivities, but insulting other groups– like LGBTs is verboten and bigotry. Rethugs dressing up in wetsuits and shoving dildos up their ass is OK….that’s fine.

    And since you accused me of not apologizing the other day maybe you can man up and admit you made a mistake

  226. 226
    handsmile says:

    @Jennifer: (#221)

    I believe the definition has been updated, so that now FOS = Full of Santorum. It’s far more insulting.

  227. 227
    John M. Burt says:

    It’s always a good idea to let a troll have the last word. It’s as close as any of them will ever come to winning an argument, and on some cases, the closest thing to something to feel proud about.

  228. 228
    Schlemizel says:

    @Cliff in NH:
    OK, let me try it:


    sorry to everyone else for putting in this in a thread, thanks for understanding. And thanks to Cliff for the education 8-{D

    ETA: so the second experiment worked as expected but the first one not at all. I won’t annoy with more playing around, its good enough for now.

  229. 229
  230. 230
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @trollhattan:

    Anybody else relishing the promise of two hours of Julianne Moore channeling Caribou Barbie? Ed Harris as Walnuts is likewise welcome.

    I’m gonna watch it ’cause McCain reacted to a question about it as if he had been smacked in the face with a rotting mackerel, and Julianne Moore’s Grifterella looks devastating. As I recall, the book opens with one of McCain’s legendary red-faced, obsecenity laced tantrums at his wife, complete with double bird. I know it marks me as a small and petty man, but I want to see that. I want to see it on youtube.

  231. 231
    kerFuFFler says:

    Ugh, I’m in the unfortunate position of agreeing with Pyrate’s assessment of the degree of tribalism exhibited in the threads here. I read BJ frequently and appreciate the links to interesting stories, and the many thoughtful posts (especially Kay’s!). I also do rather enjoy a lot of the clever snark and Schadenfreude on parade when right-wing radicalism is mocked for not dealing with reality and facts.
    That said, the one thing that could make the threads here more interesting would be more commenters willing to make convincing arguments rather than resorting to grade school taunts. I once expressed what is an apparently unpopular opinion around here and in response was painted as a fascist young republican—-in spite of the fact that I am a progressive old woman. No one who disagreed with me said anything substantive about their views or pointed me to information that could alter my current thinking. And no, I’m not still reeling from “butt-hurt”. I just think we could enjoy a higher level of discourse, one that might get people willing to modify their long cherished beliefs when presented with compelling new information. Or we can carry on as “a refuge for a snarling mass of vitriolic vicious jackals”.

  232. 232
    jenn says:

    @Micheline: I always laugh at these polls conducted at this time in the election year – I mean Obama hasn’t really even transitioned into campaign mode yet.

    Re. the posters mentioned in the OP – I have to admit that I put Veritas in a different category than makewi and BoB – I have yet to see a post in which makewi and BoB get beyond pure troll stupidity – Veritas, when he’s not talking about “Romney! He’s Inevitable – Bank on it!,” actually makes the occasional post worth reading.

  233. 233
    WyldPirate says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:
    You’re incapable of taking apart an argument. I paid no attention to your horseshit the other day because in about three consecutive posts you insisted that I made a statement I didn’t make. I don’t waste my time arguing with people who are that intellectually dishonest.

  234. 234
    jenn says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: Ok, that last line made me laugh :-)

  235. 235
    scav says:

    @Schlemizel: That’s another possible use of thread bottoms, playing with the buttons and ooohing and aaahhing over what comes out. There’s clearly some sort of global search and replace that inserts html tags while not respecting the code tags as we might expect, but it is sooo tempting to play with it some more . . .

    This is usually where I break things.

  236. 236
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Per Wikipedia, Trimethylaminuria a.k.a. fish odor syndrome is a rare metabolic disorder. Apparently, one of the symptoms is that cats really really like you.

    (Okay, I made up that last bit.)

  237. 237

    BJ trolls “… may be innumerate, semi-literate fuckwits with the same grasp of logic as dead bacteria, and all of them possessed by bizarre sexual fetishes, but at least” some of us have the good sense not to feed the trolls. ;^)
    FTFY

  238. 238
    Soonergrunt says:

    @WyldPirate: You call it an apology, I call it weasel words but whatever you think you can get away with–go for it.
    As far as the difference between “calling them retarded and implying they are retarded”, that is what that part of the world that is not perpetually thirteen and butthurt calls a distinction without a difference because they are not so impaired as to see a difference that matters. Especially since it was about as blunt an implication as one could make.
    As to your rather lame attempt to conflate attacking our trolls for being trolls by making comments about “bizarre sexual proclivities” with attacking people who are or may be LGBT for things which define them as LGBT–well, I don’t think anyone here is dumb enough to buy that line of…reasoning (for lack of a better term), but you seem to think so, and you’re welcome to try.
    And now, I think I’ll take the eminently sensible advice that John M. Burt has given out here.

  239. 239
    Sly says:

    @WyldPirate:

    That is the trolls—named by name—make the sanctioned BJ insult list wrt to their sexual proclivities, but insulting other groups—like LGBTs is verboten and bigotry. Rethugs dressing up in wetsuits and shoving dildos up their ass is OK….that’s fine.

    Yes. Yes it is.

    Bigotry against people who say and believe stupid shit occupies a higher moral ground than bigotry against women, racial and ethnic minorities, homosexuals, etc. Insulting the hypocrisy of bigots occupies an even higher moral ground than that.

  240. 240
    Cassidy says:

    Wyldbigot doesn’t understand the definition of bigotry. Making fun of assholes for saying stupid, rotten things is not bigotry,

  241. 241
    THE says:

    @Samara Morgan:
    I’m surprised you ever go back there Samara. I wouldn’t.

  242. 242
    Cain says:

    @General Stuck:

    Completely irrelevant to what Wildy is talking about. With RIP threads, it is the timing that some folks object to. Critiquing the life of a celebrity while the body is still warm. I didn’t have a problem with your commentary on the WH Rip thread, but the complaint wasn’t about diversity of opinion

    On the other hand, a personal attack doesn’t seem very good if the whole intent of the thread was to be respectful about someone’s life or whatever while engaging in attacks. :-) It lacks a certain.. I don’t know.. class?

    But then what do I know, nobody flames me. I must look like a fuzzy teddy bear to the rest of you.

  243. 243
    WaterGirl says:

    @Elizabelle: I am wiping tears from my eyes, but even so, thank you so much for posting that link.

    Why is it that we only see stories like this after someone has been lost? It would be really great to know about real journalists who actually still exist, to be inspired by what is good instead of only battered by so much of what is wrong around us.

    The quality of being in the moment, as described in the article, is one I believe Obama shares. It’s how we can see photos of him grinning from ear to ear while eating shaved ice in hawaii, or being enthralled with some kid and his project at a science fair, even as he handles so many grave responsibilities at once, responsibilities that would break the backs of lesser people, myself in included.

    Thanks again for the link.

  244. 244
    Frankensteinbeck says:

    Wyld @233:
    Your debating principles are offended by correcting people who don’t understand your argument, but not by exchanging insults? That’s assuming I misunderstood anything. My interpretation was widely shared, and you never refuted it. You seem more interested in insults, now and then.

  245. 245
    patrick II says:

    @General Stuck:

    I’m sure there will be a respectful withholding of negative comments here at BJ when Cheney kicks the bucket.

  246. 246
    Jennifer says:

    @Cain: I guess if you classify the expression of a sincere opinion that the material an artist covered wasn’t equal to their talent as a “personal attack” it might be considered lacking in class.

    Most sane people wouldn’t classify it that way, I don’t think, but then what do I know? Apparently adopting a fake but fawning fandom you don’t feel is the only appropriate response, else other people who also never met the subject might get their feelings hurt.

  247. 247
    Cain says:

    @kerFuFFler:

    “butt-hurt”. I just think we could enjoy a higher level of discourse, one that might get people willing to modify their long cherished beliefs when presented with compelling new information. Or we can carry on as “a refuge for a snarling mass of vitriolic vicious jackals”.

    Sadly this is the internet. It’s not really possible to have a high minded discussion on blogs. People’s motivations in this place is pretty diverse.

    Sometimes it does occur. Sorry it didn’t work for you this time. The problem is the assumption that people who have a discordant opinion are trolls. We feed trolls here a lot.

    The best thing to do is to post for awhile and get people to know you, and then try a post like yours.

  248. 248
    Cain says:

    @Jennifer:

    Most sane people wouldn’t classify it that way, I don’t think, but then what do I know? Apparently not adopting a fake but fawning fandom you don’t feel is the only appropriate response, else other people who also never met the subject might get their feelings hurt.

    In the end, it’s not worth really expressing an opinion on RIP threads. I usually make some comment about it was tragic and then that’s about it. In the end, my opinion about Whitney Houston is not really important, even to me :-)

  249. 249
    WaterGirl says:

    @Schlemizel: Yeah, when I was trying to learn how to various html things on this site, I would try my various experiments at the end of older threads no one was reading anymore.

    Edit: I see scav had the same suggestion.

  250. 250
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @patrick II: There is a small group of people for whom I am happy to make an exception. Cheney heads the list.

  251. 251
    Rufus says:

    As a Dutchman I am quite surprised to learn that I don’t dare to go to a hospital. On the contrary there is more and more discontent that our euthanasia-law is so very restrictive and that many of our doctors hate to do it so much that there is still a lot of senseless suffering going on for people who would like to end their life in dignity.
    Good news is that some doctors are forming mobile teams to help you at home when your own doctor is unwilling to cooperate.

  252. 252
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Jennifer: I went back and reread that thread. You are right. I, for one, misinterpreted your comment or read into it a tone that was not necessarily there. My apologies.

  253. 253
    WyldPirate says:

    Soonergrunt:
    Well fuck me; I didn’t have my copy of the soonergrunt field manual outlining the proper way to phrase an apology.

    That’s fucking ABL-level dumbassery. And you have no fucking principles either as you flat out said I made no effort at an apology.

    Thanks for clearing up the fact that you’re a lying sack of shit lacking any integrity.

  254. 254
    Bex says:

    @Schlemizel: Absolutely true about wingnuts lying to your face. They all start spouting their crap, arrogantly assuming you’ll agree with them, and when you don’t, their pants suddenly catch on fire.

  255. 255
    Chris says:

    @Linda Featheringill:

    I looked for some response from the Netherlands and didn’t find it. Maybe these allegations are just now surfacing and it will take a while for a rebuttal to surface.

    I suspect the Dutch have much better things to do with their time than rebutting the delusions of a pseudo-Christian cultist on the other side of the ocean, especially one who’s not even an elected official or the front-runner to become one.

  256. 256

    A Cheney RIP? Would “fuck you, I’m glad you’re dead,” be over the top? I suppose it could be toned down to, “You’re dead? The world is a bit better place.” How about, “He didn’t hate teh gay… yay… glad you’ve gone away.”

    Shit now I’m running out of remotely polite…. bullshit.

  257. 257
    Lex says:

    Eh. I read a LOT of blogs. And between work and grad school and raisin’ rug rats, I don’t have time to check them all every day. So I’m frequently days late to stuff, but I’m no less interested in the discussion for all that. (The comments here are like some Fark threads: frequently so good that it doesn’t really matter when the original post went up. Could’ve been years ago. Still entertaining. [Go to Fark and search on “Marinara hose beast”.])

    Plus, y’all front pagers average something like 10 posts a day, each of which typically generates a hundred or 200 comments. That’s a lot of reading. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

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