Jennifer Rubin pauses from her Romney cheerleading day job to go after the 51% of America that actually learned a lesson from the decade of wars we’ve been thrust into, as the latest Pew Research poll finds there’s not too much support for backing up an Israeli attack on Iran. With only 39% of Americans wanting the US to follow Israel into the Hot Gates of Thermopylae Tehran, Rubin chastises the Dems for not being explodey enough:
It’s stunning, actually, that in the event of a conflict between the revolutionary, jihadist state Iran and our democratic ally Israel, Democrats want us to be neutral.
The Democratic National Committee chairwoman doesn’t want to make Israel an “election” issue. Maybe before lecturing Republicans to clam up she should work on educating her own party about the U.S.-Israel relationship and about the menace of a nuclear-armed Iran. It is embarrassing for the Democratic Party’s finger-wagging chairwoman to be saddled with a constituency that is so indifferent to the plight of the Jewish state. As for Obama, it seems he’s right in sync with opinion in his party on Israel. And that is a big problem for the future of the U.S.-Israel relationship, the survival of the Jewish state and the continued credibility of the United States, which under two administrations has vowed that it is “unacceptable” for Iran to obtain nuclear weapons.
Once again, I am struck as to how Rubin seems to have completely omitted our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan from the country’s memory, and how we arrived at them, and that she has no issues with Israel dictating foreign policy to us. Indeed, she is “stunned” to find that after nine years in Iraq and ten going on eleven in Afghanistan, that the American public really isn’t terribly keen on going to war with Iran and want us to stay out of an Israel-Iran fight, and want us to not invest another lost decade’s worth of blood and treasure just because Israel gets trigger-happy.
Besides the ridiculous notion that people who don’t want war are somehow not only “indifferent” towards the Israel but ostensibly against Israel’s very survival itself, I have to ask if all it took to get the US to invade Iran was Israel attacking Iranian nuclear facilities, why hasn’t Israel simply done it already if the Iranian nuclear program is such an existential threat?
Also, it’s not like the United States is truly “neutral” anyway, nor are we just standing around doing nothing to support an ally. America is applying tough economic sanctions and has gotten the European Union to go along with them. These sanctions get much tougher in another five months or so when the clause that the US will no longer do economic business with countries that do buy oil from Iran fully kicks in. Hell, even FOX News is admitting the sanctions are working. Oh, and yes, we have carrier groups hanging out in the region as well just in case Iran does something stupid, and in fact to specifically prevent Iran from doing anything stupid. It seems to me that Israel is choosing not to act for a reason, and that reason is the sanctions are working.
But Rubin blithely insists war is the only option and goes after anyone who believes in any other approach to Iran, when President Obama is calmly proving that this just isn’t the case in reality. After a decade of blood and trillions of dollars, America is getting tired of having its patriotism questioned by armchair Alexanders who engage in nothing but endless wargasm. Certainly the Post’s readers deserve something slightly more nuanced than Rubin’s cartoon-inspired approach to international relations.
Napoleon
Fuck Jennifer Rubin
Villago Delenda Est
If Israel attacks Iran, then we should cut them off, and deport Rubin.
I’ve had it with these warmongering shits who are so eager to send others to fight and die for their pet causes.
barath
On a related note, Greer posted a nice take on “empire” (i.e. what Rubin wants to perpetuate) – I think it’s his first post in a series on the topic.
rea
Some of us, who favor Israel’s continued existance, think that starting a war with Iran would seriously endanger that continued existance.
Betty Cracker
On Planet Rubin, Israelis are allowed to have diverse opinions on Israeli foreign policy, but Americans are not.
Cargo
Democratic reaction to israel attacking iran – We have to support our allies, and our Jewish constituency.
Republican reaction – HOORAY, finally, Armageddon! Hello, JESUS! o/` Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming the Lord o/`
Result either way: war.
Rafer Janders
our wars in Iraq
You know, what constantly shocks me (but doesn’t surprise me) (or perhaps it suprises me, but doesn’t shock me) is how the American media, American people, pretty much everybody, etc. always uses the phrase “war IN Iraq” rather than “war ON Iraq.” It almost makes it seem as if there was already a war going on in Iraq that we just decided to join in on, rather than that we brutally attacked and invaded Iraq without provocation, that it was a war entirely of our own making.
WyldPirate
I wasn’t aware of this clause. Since China buys oil from Iran, it has the potential to give WalMart, Apple and other companies a sad in addition to a lot of consumers.
I think a blind eye will be turned toward this sanction unless a mile wide exception for China has already been carved out.
Bulworth
Iran is the Next Great Evil. Amazed “liberal” media is picking up right where they left off after the Iraq catastrophe. It’s like the Iraq War never happened.
Waldo
To be fair, it’s been almost 10 years since we last started a war on behalf of Israel’s interests.
amk
The rethug pundtwits have realized that their culture wars are bombing on them and are now into beating the real war drums.
kth
Rubin has a funny way of saying ‘neutral’. In reality, if Iran attacks Israel, the U.S. will retaliate against Iran, but if Israel attacks Iran, the U.S. will (at the very least) not retaliate against Israel.
4tehlulz
Because even Bibi isn’t that fucking stupid ( I hope).
Cargo
I just freaking love how being a staunch Zionist becauseyou need Israel to trigger WW3, gog/magog, a nuclear holocaust to usher in the return of your Jesus, is standard thinking among evangelicals.
How could it possibly be more anti-semitic? They want to sacrifice a RACE. Two races actually, and turn the land into glass to fulfill biblical prophecy. It just blows my mind. What the hell happens when the war takes place, millions dead, the entire middle east is radioactive, and Jesus DOESN’T come back? “Oops! Oh well, we must have read it wrong. Maybe we need to kill MORE jews and muslims.”
Just.. arrgh. Insanity.
jrg
I guess this means that the only way to not be “neutral” towards a moronic chickenhawk columnist is to shoot him or her in the face.
Praise be to Allah. It’s all clear to me now.
artem1s
This thread needs an L7 Wargasm link…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKVhQ9aXZYE
Rawk Chawk
@Villago Delenda Est:
I came when I read this.
Pardon me while I do some laundry…
mikefromArlington
I know it’s shallow. But did she get in a car wreck or something. When I see her on the tv I can’t concentrate on a thing she says.
biff diggerence
Mutual Assured Destruction served us well with the Soviets.
I don’t give a flying f**k if Iran acquires a nuclear device.
If they do, and Tehran and Tel Aviv are liquified, that’s two major foreign policy pains in the ass solved.
Samara Morgan
dude.
War on Iran results in 20$ gallon gas.
instantly.
what is difficult about this equation?
conservatives want this so they can beat Obama.
they dont fucking care about tanking the economy.
4tehlulz
@Cargo: They would probably say that; after all, the prophecy says that all Jews would go to Israel and convert or be glassed.
Schlemizel
BINGO!
Samara Morgan
@4tehlulz: yup.
i totes dont get why jews would be okfine with being staked goats for the Rapture.
Schlemizel
@4tehlulz:
And in private moments would design glass chambers to do it in
Yes, I went Godwin, sue me!
leinie
@Cargo:
THIS. It’s insanity.
Dave
This whole thing is ridiculous. Even if Iran gained a nuke – and that is still a big if – that doesn’t change much of anything. Or does anyone think the Ayatollahs don’t realize that the Israelis have sub-based nukes ready to fly if they do something stupid.
rikryah
let me raise my hand…
I am among those who don’t give a rat’s ass about Israel and Iran, and
HELL muthafuckin’ no to us following the 51st state into a war with Iran.
lacp
Well, if by “the sanctions are working” you mean “the sanctions are starting to impoverish the Iranians just like the ’90s sanctions on Iraq,” that’s probably true. Whether that represents progress or not is something that might be open to debate.
Linda Featheringill
Rubin:
Thank you Jennifer. Seriously. I find that comforting.
Raven
@Samara Morgan: Finally woke up huh?
Hawkeye
Corderman did a study a few years ago on what happens in a full scale nuclear exchange and the estimates are horrifying — Iran would cease to exist and millions would die. And if Israel bombs Iran — even so-called strategically — you can take it to the bank these two will go the full 15 rounds within a decade.
Judas Escargot
@4tehlulz:
Any plan that hinges completely on Bibi not being stupid and/or arrogant is doomed to fail.
IMO, his original plan was to just wait for Obama to lose the election, and work with whatever suitably obedient Republican replaced him
But now that BHO’s re-election chances look somewhat better than they did, the sabre-ratting starts. This is not a coincidence.
Zandar
@lacp:
Which is entirely a valid point.
4tehlulz
@Schlemizel: Gas, glass, or ass, no one gets saved for free.
Cargo
Samara Morgan – I grew up in a fairly Christian household in the 80s and it was a constant stream of “biblical prophecy” warnings about the Rapture, Revelations, Amageddon, etc. First it was the Russians and Americans as Gog and Magog, fighting over, yup, Israel and Iran. Then it was Saddam Hussein as the Antichrist, and then (oddly) the European Union, after the russians vanished.
Oh, and credit cards are the mark of the beast, and locusts are helicopters.
They have dearly prayed for war between Iran and Israel for decades, in order to fulfill the prophecies and usher in Christ’s return. And they’re driving foreign policy among Republicans (eg. W’s apocalyptic talk to a baffled Chirac in the runup to Iraq, 2002)
That shit’s as nutty as anything the Scientologists or Mormons ever came up with, yet South Park’s never touched it. For some reason.
Linda Featheringill
@Samara Morgan: #23
I agree.
There are intelligent people in Israel who can see that this is the agenda of the American Right Wing.
The Ancient Randonneur
Yes Jennifer I’m sure you and the rest of your war-mongering friends will encourage your loved ones to go down and enlist to support this war, right? Sweet FSM in the morning, once a chickenhawk, always a chickenhawk.
amk
@Linda Featheringill: Isn’t it the other way about ? Wasn’t he the one that drove his party’s ‘opinion’ by firmly saying FU to nut n yahoo while the congress critters gave him a fucking standing ovation ?
Steve
The striking thing about that Pew Poll is that independent opinion is PRECISELY lined up with Democratic opinion on this issue.
In the event Israel attacks Iran, 33% of Democrats say we should support Israel’s action, 57% say stay neutral. The same 33% of Independents say we should support the action and 58% stay neutral.
Oh, and then there’s the “small government” Tea Party Republicans. Is anyone surprised they choose “support Israel” over “stay neutral” by an 81-17 margin?
Samara Morgan
@Raven: nah. i had a good insomniagametime night.
there weren’t any new EDK posts i had to deconstruct.
Schlemizel
@4tehlulz:
You are a baaaaaaaaad person! Thanks for my first smile of the morning.
Butch
There was a good piece over at Americablog a few days ago arguing that America really could lose a war against Iran, especially given that the Revolutionary Guard and the Basij are not likely to allow any conflict to be confined to Iranian soil but will bring it to American shopping malls and sports arenas.
Steve
@rea: Quite right. The Middle East is unstable enough already.
harlana
these people – does she have any suggestions as to how (WIF THE DEFICIT CRISIS! REMEMBER?!) we would pay yet for another war?? And, of course, we want more dead bodies, right?
Anyway, get over it woman, we have more important things to cover, like the economy & jobs, but I guess you wouldn’t know or care about any of that considering you’re gainfully employed and apparently have no conscience, or common sense for that matter, whatsoever.
PIGL
Hi, Jennie. I for one am indifferent to the fate of Israel, in that I care one way or the other about as much as I care for the fate of Lebanon or Ghana or Paraguay. What this indifferent observer would like to know is:
Of what specific crimes has Iran been convicted? How do these remotely justify acts of economic warfare by the USA, Canada and Europe?
Cermet
Since I already anticipated this thread and posted ahead of time in another thread, I’ll repost for this thread:
In Salon, they have major Israel Defense people saying Israel will most likely attack Iran’s uranium processing plants in April or May 2012.
If they do, then the Persian Gulf will then be closed for weeks if not months by Iran. They’ll stop all their production/export, and due to the closure – Iraq and the Saudi’s will lose their biggest export harbors (and these could get hit by heavy missile strikes – oh, boy.)
Oil at $200/barrel would be lucky – the spike could easily go far higher; gas lines and economic free fall for the West. Kiss all economic recovery good bye for a year or more. Obama would be one term (Surely the Israel number one goal, and the nuke bombing would be a distant number two.)
Of course, this would never stop Iran from developing nuclear processing for fuel(a delay of a year or two at best) but damn will get them motivated to go full nuclear weapon development.
I get the feeling these right wing fuckers in Israel will never be happy until they destroy all democrats and install a rightwing gov in the US; I think we will soon learn if Israel is really our number one enemy in the world … great.
Could we please shoot down the fucking Israel jets if they try doing something this stupid? Besides, Iran will strike back at them as well and all Arabs will really, really get pissed at them (and of course, us.)
So much for all the $$$ and amerikan lives lost in Iraq for oil we will never see again for years if this all comes to pass … damn, I sure hope they are just trying to scare Iran into an agreement …
I agree that attacking Iran would pose a far greater danger to the Jewess State than Iran getting nukes. By the way, Iran, by international law that WE CREATED, has the right to develop nuclear power and manufacture/process uranium as well as enrich it (but I do believe that they are developing weapons.)
qwerty42
but … but … munich! … appeasement!!! … chamberlain!!! … churchill!! …
I’m not clear on the exact reason a war would be so great and would resolve everything. Does Iran have land- and sea-based ICBMs they can use on anyone? A bomber fleet they can deploy? A substantial naval force, including aircraft carriers, that can be sent out? As for Israel, isn’t Jerusalem sacred to Islam as well? And isn’t it an open secret Israel does have nukes and would use them? Given the mutual antipathy between Saudi Arabia and Iran, maybe the Iran would bomb Mecca as well? Or perhaps these are an increasingly fevered and hysterical reaction to the non-interest of most Americans to be drawn into this. None of which is to say it could not happen. Instead of the endlessly repeated WW2 tropes, maybe someone should be talking about the events of July, 1914. Nah, too hard. Besides, that was a long time ago.
4tehlulz
wut?
kindness
You would think any media outlet outside of Fox News would find Ruben an embarrassment but the WaPo is so out of it now they keep paying her and publishing her.
Ruben represents the Netanyahu version of Israeli politics which is NOT in America’s best interest and not even in Israel’s best interest. Doesn’t matter to Jennifer. All she wants is to see more dead Muslims.
@4tehlulz: No, Bibi is that fucking stupid but Bibi doesn’t run the military in Israel. We should be thankful of that.
JoyfulA
I sent a letter on this topic to Senator Casey. His boilerplate response sounded a lot like Jennifer Rubin.
I think I’ll next send him Zandar’s post.
Also, too, others should nudge their congresspeople. Casey is supposed to be a good solid Democrat except for the lady bits part, but he sure is sounding like a Neocon to me.
Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
Samara Morgan
@Cargo: yup.
i lurve Trey and Matt, but they never touched this, preferring to mock OBL.
i guess they are Americans First.
Napoleon
@Butch:
I don’t have a link I saved but a few years ago, apparently, the US military ran an extensive war game between the US and Iran in which the American’s who made up the leaders of Iran managed to inflict an increadible amount of damage on US forces. Stuff like sinking Aircraft Carriers and the like. The military then ordered the war game to be rerun but they limited the tactics Iran could use, specifically the actual tactics we expect them to use, and the US then won.
Schlemizel
@qwerty42:
My guess is we are not whacking Iran JUST for Israel, the Saud family is prodding us along these lines very sharply in the background. We are so fing stupid, we let these butchers (not just those in Israel & Saudi Arabia but several others – hell, it was Iran that made the case for us invading Iraq) goad us into pointless wars and ugly policies for their benefit and then they get to pretend they are the good guys & we are the monsters.
Samara Morgan
@4tehlulz: well, the Israelinazis want to bomb Qom.
that is the equivalent of bombing Medina for the sunnis.
4tehlulz
>Israelinazis
Your opinion is invalid forever.
Chris
@4tehlulz:
I read an article a while back comparing Israeli and American attitudes towards the war. And one difference it noted is that so many Israelis have served in the military: they’ve got direct experience with war, which makes them somewhat less likely than the American public to blindly accept whatever the politicians tell them.
Here’s the full article: good read http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/11/03/israelis-impressive-fight-against-iraq-war-push.html
Samara Morgan
@Napoleon: hahaha
been there.
that is SOP.
if you don’t like the results, re-sim.
Villago Delenda Est
@PIGL:
They exist, and they are not rabidly pro-Israel. Quite the contrary.
This is a crime a far as war-rabid twits such as Rubin are concerned.
Napoleon
This may be in part what I was thinking of in my wargame post.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2004/12/will-iran-be-next/3599/
Chris
@Samara Morgan:
They probably don’t think it’ll come to that.
“What, there’s this group of really superstitious morons who think it’s their God-given obligation to support us while they wait for a mythological event that we know isn’t going to happen in any case? Suckers!”
Of course, that only works as long as the Superstitious Morons don’t try to actually cause the Rapture.
Villago Delenda Est
@4tehlulz:
The fact is, there are crazy Israelis who don’t think that the Nazis had the wrong idea, just the wrong victims, by their own rhetoric. Slaughtering Muslims indiscriminately doesn’t seem to bother them at all.
They’ve jumped into the abyss they were staring into.
4tehlulz
@Villago Delenda Est: There are some Israelis that are crazy Nazis; therefore, all Israelis are Nazis.
Kinda like all Muslims are terrorists amirite?
elmo
All this is about newspapers saving money. They’ve laid off all their reporters and staff, but they still have to print stories. How do we come up with a way to just recycle old news and make it fresh?
This new war will allow them to reprint thousands of old stories for the cost of changing a single letter. Smoking gun, mushroom cloud, babies in incubators, torture of innocents – check, check, check, and check. Simple typesetting change and it’s all new again.
Mary Jane
@Cargo: Yes, they are insane and incapable of making the connection, i.e.; Old Testament God got pissed off at everything. Went around ordering slashing of babies, genocide, you name the horror. Yet every sperm is sacred.
Napoleon
@Napoleon:
This looks related as well:
http://www.merip.org/mer/mer197/iran-virtual-reality-us-war-games
Nutella
Rubin is a nasty person in many ways but I find it particularly nasty that she uses the phrase “the survival of the Jewish state” to imply that people who disagree with her disgusting politics are anti-Semites rather than anti-Likud or pro-peace.
Besides the fact that, as others have pointed out, the survival of Israel as a country and the Israeli people are a lot more likely if they don’t start another mideast war.
Chris
@Napoleon:
So, I’m guessing Aircraft Carriers are to the Navy what Fighter Jets are to the Air Force, where it’s the ultimate tool, the best of the best, and they won’t hear a thing against it (and if the facts indicate vulnerabilities, the facts must be wrong).
@Villago Delenda Est:
One of the many reasons Magneto’s my all-time favorite supervillain is that he’s essentially the personification of Likudnik-Zionism.
PurpleGirl
@harlana: All discretionary funding would be cut — education, medical research, Medicare, Social Security (to the righties, it’s discretionary), cash assistance (i.e. welfare), National Endowment for the Arts and the Humanities, cabinet departments, etc. They’d have a field day slashing things from the budget so that the budget would 100% military spending. Rubin and friends are probably orgasming right now over the possibilities.
Villago Delenda Est
@4tehlulz:
The fact is, some Muslims are terrorists. Also, some Israelis are terrorists. Likud’s pedigree, going back to the time of Israeli independence, was terrorism. Menachem Begin was a wanted terrorist in the late 40’s.
Terrorists in the United States tend to be Christians, but we don’t call them terrorists, although their actions fit the classic definition of terrorism.
The sad fact is, the people who control the Israel state right now, due to the way Israel’s parliamentary system works, tend to be pretty right wing, and tend to have extreme views that the majority of Israelis do not share.
Iran’s nuclear ambitions are in response to Israel’s unacknowledged nuclear arsenal, and the lesson of the 2003 invasion of Iraq by the US: have nukes, or you’re subject to warmongering Americans invading your country, to steal your natural resources.
Napoleon
@Chris:
In partial defense of the military I did hear Mike Mullins in the last month or so on radio flat out predict that if Iran tried to close the Straight of Hormuz (sp?) they would do it. His reply was not at all conditional.
Samara Morgan
@4tehlulz: why?
i dont hate jews. i hate israelis.
isnt gaza just the new Mila 18?
terraformer
If news organizations really want to continue the “he said/she said” rubric, then they should actually do it. Have someone who truly represents the opposing view on the topic at hand – even; nay, especially in an editorial – space to present that view.
But that’d be so impolite, so adversarial. Can’t have that. Plus, it would shine bright sunshine on lies and warmongering, and allow discussion about just who benefits from them, and why they are proffering narratives. Definitely can’t have that.
Nutella
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yes, it’s perfectly sensible of them. They’ve seen it work for North Korea.
Villago Delenda Est
@Samara Morgan:
Not all Israelis (in fact, the majority, although the elections don’t reflect this due to the craziness of Israel’s parliamentary system) are worthy of your hate, in fact, the exact opposite. Most just want to live their lives in peace, and are not all that eager to empower the more extreme among them, who have pretty much the same anti-modern agenda of Christian fundamentalists and Wahhabists.
daveNYC
@Chris:
They’re also increadibly useful for projecting power though (read that as ‘bombing brown people’). Basically, aircraft carriers make the Navy important. Without them, you’ve got boomer subs and then what, pirate patrol perhaps, as the main roles left for them. It’s stupid to replay wargames and all that, but I can understand why the Navy wouldn’t want it’s reason for being to appear weak.
And Magneto has changed over time. He’s been everything from a Mutant Hitler type dude to a straight up replacement for Professor X. I always like to think of him as more of a Malcom X type guy, but he’s always had too much (ie. > 0) bodycount for that.
WyldPirate
@Cargo:
I grew up going to evangelical churches. I have a couple of dozen relatives who are evangelicals and are in their church every time the doors open. Three have been on year long missions to Africa. Yet I have to a never been service (granted it,s been 32 years) and heard that. Never heard a church- going relative utter anything like that (but had a couple of aunts go to Iraq war protests prior to the invasion).
Good that you cleared it up for me, though, Cargo. It helped me understand that my religious relatives, who would give you the shirt of their back if you needed it, are itching to usher in a nuclear holocaust and are insane, genocidal anti-Semites.
Rafer Janders
@Butch:
There was a good piece over at Americablog a few days ago arguing that America really could lose a war against Iran, especially given that the Revolutionary Guard and the Basij are not likely to allow any conflict to be confined to Iranian soil but will bring it to American shopping malls and sports arenas.
Sports arenas? Maybe soccer stadiums, sure, but if they came to play in our baseball, football, basketball and ice hockey stadiums and arenas we’d wipe the floor with the Iranians. They just don’t have the depth of talent we do.
Kane
The best way to silence Jennifer Rubin and her fellow neocons from banging the drums for war is to simply ask them if they are willing to support a substantial tax increase to pay for the war. Also ask if they are willing to enlist or send their own sons and daughters to fight.
When asked to sacrifice their own blood and treasure, I’m guessing that Rubin and her neocon pals wont be so enthusiastic about hurling the country into another war and they will suddenly become pragmatic.
Soonergrunt
@Napoleon: Specifically, it was Donald Rumsfeld’s OSD (Office of the SecDef) that ordered the change and restart to those table-top wargames. CENTCOM learned a lot from them. The OPFOR was a retired USMC 2-star and a bunch of O-3/O-4 officers. The smartest thing they did was play to specifically negate the advantages the US had by taking their communications back to WWII technology–motorcycle messengers supplanting buried analog phone lines and manually operated FM radio, among other things.
Steve
@Cermet: “the Jewess State”? Man, the Israel threads can really suck around here.
Samara Morgan
@Villago Delenda Est: not most.
Most Iraelis are infected by the same paranoia posioning as the US after 911.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: yup, but tabletop fails in the advent of social media.
After the Arab Spring, the American Fall.
Rafer Janders
@Villago Delenda Est:
Well, plus if you zone out for the entire region, consider Iran’s strategic situation: to their west, nuclear-armed Israel, as well as their historical enemy Iraq, recently attacked and occupied by the US. To their south, the Persian Gulf patrolled by the nuclear-armed US Navy. To their southeast, nuclear-armed Pakistan. To their northeast, Afghanistan, occupied by the US. To their (not immediate) north, nuclear-armed Russia. To their northwest, NATO member and US ally Turkey.
Frankly, Iran is really the only major state in the region without nuclear weapons. They’d be crazy not to try to acquire them.
Samara Morgan
@Kane: nah. hit them in the nads.
ax them if they are willing to support 20$ gallon gasoline.
Villago Delenda Est
@Samara Morgan:
I’ll just leave you with your circa 1930s Germany attitudes, then.
Samara Morgan
@Villago Delenda Est: not my attitudes.
Israeli attitudes.
Linda Featheringill
@Napoleon:
War game between US and Iran:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/02/21/87061/war-game-shows-how-attacking-iran.html
BGinCHI
I can’t think of a good synonym for “twat.”
John S.
@WyldPirate:
Good to know that you and your family represents all evangelical Christians everywhere.
Napoleon
@Soonergrunt:
I seem to recall that the “Iranians” used a lot of swarm attacks and stuff like that, which it is obvious that is what they plan to do, and Rumsfeld’s OSD ordered stuff like that changed as well so that the Iranian attack was more conventional.
It would be like the Redcoats running a war game in 1773 against the colonies in which the colonies’ militia was allowed to hide behind trees and could only use open field formations.
Litlebritdifrnt
Totally OT but cool FLOTUS greeting WH tour visitors LIVE RIGHT NOW!
http://www.whitehouse.gov/live
KXB
The Washington Post, which used to you have stellar reporters, is now just a mouthpiece for the neocons. Indeed, with the recent budget cuts, it is beat reporters that will take the worst of it, while the editorial page will remain untouched.
Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity
Any time I see or hear the word “jihadist”, I reach for my gun.
Butch
@Rafer Janders: You got me for sloppy wording on my part. The article envisioned having to pass through security to get into shopping malls after a few heartland stores have been bombed.
Soonergrunt
@Linda Featheringill: The most important long term take-away from that wargame outcome:
“The Tehran regime was also able to crush its domestic political opposition.”
The best prospect for security and stability in the region is for Iran to move towards a more open participatory government in some form. Just about any attack against Iran by anyone will damage that.
Ed Drone
@Cargo:
And something has bothered me a long time about attempting to “nudge” God into bringing on the “End Times.” And that is the Biblical injunction “Thou shall not put the Lord thy God to the test.”
To me, trying to arrange things the way you think they should be so that Jesus will come again is, indeed, “putting God to the test.” “If you’re God, you’ll end the world when these conditions are met, so we’re setting up the conditions. You hear us? C’mon down!”
So if you put God to the test, and he strikes you down, that’s fine with me. But if there are enough of you clowns doing this, spread throughout this land of ours, I can’t avoid standing next to you when the smiting begins, and I do not want to become ‘collateral damage.’
And if you’re trying to decipher scripture as to what the optimum conditions are for Jesus’ return, you have a (sorry) Devilish job ahead of you. Don’t think for one minute that nudging God’s elbow will please Him one bit, either.
Ed
liberal
“Iran Worried U.S. Might Be Building 8,500th Nuclear Weapon”
WyldPirate
@John S.:
Fuck off, I’m an atheist.
I was just making fun of the BJ-sanctioned politically correct two minutes of hate here by the truckloads of hypocrites infesting this place. If you’re too goddamned stupid to understand that one segment of crazy fucks of a branch of Christianity don’t represent all of the group, then that’s your problem.
handsmile
“Certainly the Post’s readers deserve something slightly more nuanced than Rubin’s cartoon-inspired approach to international relations.”
Well, then perhaps they could turn to the Kaplan Test Prep Daily’s resident VSP on international affairs, David Ignatius, and read his February 2 column, “Is Israel preparing to attack Iran?,” based upon his background interview with Leon Panetta.
SiubhanDuinne
A little O/T but this thread made me realize that I haven’t seen Emily Hauser (EllaEsther) around here in ages. I know she posts at ABL’s place and has her own blog and all, but I’m surprised not to see her weighing in when Israel and the ME are topics. If you’re reading this, Emily, I miss your wise commentary over here.
Suffern ACE
OT but related: watching Fox news at the mechanic. Hostess asking experts why were negotiating with the Taliban. “why don’t we try to defeat them?”
Samara Morgan
@WyldPirate: WECs are 50% of the GOP now.
John S. has a point.
Samara Morgan
@SiubhanDuinne: haha, she wont come here while im here. im banned at ABLC and Em’s blog for callin’ her on her “Middle East Expert” bulshytt.
Chris
@WyldPirate:
If you’re too goddamn stupid to understand that we’re talking about the Segment Of Crazy Fucks Of A Brach Of Christianity and not “ALL OF THE GROUP!!!!” then that’s your problem. Don’t make it ours.
4tehlulz
I love how everyone is leaking the exact time frame that Israel will attack Iran.
DEAR IRAN PLZ READY YOUR AIR DEFENSES FOR THIS TIME PERIOD KTHXBAI
Samara Morgan
@handsmile: thing is, Our Crazy Ex-Girlfriend Israel understands that we are just not that into her anymore.
The demographic timer will kill AIPAC.
Blacks, browns and youth dont give a shit about Israel.
Israel sees this as her last chance to drag the US into WWIII while she still can.
WyldPirate
@Samara Morgan:
Sure, many WECs are, but not all are. Some go to areas of the world to help people (and win converts) that are full of dark-skinned people that many here presume all WeCs hate.
Shawn in ShowMe
@Villago Delenda Est:
But how many of them want an end to Palestinian apartheid? ‘Cause that’s what peace would require. I get the impression that your average Israeli wants peace in the same way that the ’70s white surburbanite who fled the city to avoid the coloreds wanted peace.
Samara Morgan
@4tehlulz: are you quite insane?
an Israeli strike on Qom is WWIII and 20$ per gallon gas.
are you nutz?
Panetta is trying to deter Israel from trying to start WWIII you simpleton.
Soonergrunt
@Napoleon: We actually have experience fighting against Iran in a limited action.
Operation Prime Chance and Operation Earnest Will were both directed at limiting Iranian military capability and action in the Persian Gulf. They succeeded for the most part. The takeaway is that you fight small, decentralized, swarming forces conducting limited local operations with…small, decentralized, swarming forces conducting limited local operations.
Of course, the Iranians learned some lessons too, so what happened before will not necessarily happen again. No one with any brains ever said they were stupid after all.
I don’t think we have a shooting war between the US and Iran on the horizon. I don’t think it’s as close as some on the right seem to want it to be, nor as close as some on the left seem to need it to be.
I don’t think the Iranians want war as much as some on the right want them to, and I don’t think that the right wing in this country has the power to drag the US into another war so soon after the last two. I have a little more faith in the rest of our people than that.
I do think this needs to be very carefully managed, and I do think that we need to be clear-headed about what the Iranians want. Frankly if what the Iranian government wants (which is most likely what all dictatorships want–staying in power) doesn’t hurt us, then I don’t think we have a lot to worry about.
One of the biggest mistakes anybody from any society ever makes when dealing with other societies and countries is the failure to properly determine how domestic politics on the other side affect the other side’s behaviors and reactions.
The Iranian government wants, first and foremost, to retain power in Iran. They do that by suppressing dissent on one hand and placating the populace on the other. When those don’t work, they may start trying foreign adventures to stir up nationalism, as the Argentine junta did in the Falkland Islands war in 1982. I don’t know if that is the correct (or even closest) parallel to what is happening in Iran today. We don’t have a lot of accurate information coming out of Iran.
We know that they invited people from all over the Arab world to a conference recently and tried to put a stamp of “Islamic Spring” on the Arab Spring of last year and that fell flat because most of the conference attendees see the Iranian government as every bit as oppressive as the governments that were toppled. It was a failed PR ploy. I don’t think it had any other import than that.
4tehlulz
@Samara Morgan: So? My point was that it’s funny.
Samara Morgan
@WyldPirate: haha, proselytizing.
missionariism is an epic fail.
See OIF and OEF.
The Quran prohibits proselytizing the poor and ignorant.
All those christians are doing is pissing muslims off.
After the Arab Spring, the American Fall.
WyldPirate
@Chris:
Go read Cargo’s post at #14 when he informed us what “standard thinking” of evangelicals is WRT to their desires to gin up Armageddon so they could meet Baby Jesus in person.
Comrade Dread
Must like every other figure in the media, Rubin completely ignores the hostile actions and statements taken and made by the United States and Israel towards Iran, and focuses exclusively on Iran’s retaliatory rhetoric.
This isn’t particularly surprising, given her role as cheerleader of the neocons and those who embrace the idea of the white man’s burden.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: moron, it was an islamic spring.
Egypt, Libya, Tunisia all have shariah in their constitution.
72% of the Egyptian parliament is islamist.
you lost dumbfuck.
in the battle for hearts and minds America got its big white judeo-christian ass handed to it.
WyldPirate
@Samara Morgan:
Epic fail? Tell that to the Protestant churches who are stealing
marksconverts worldwide from the Catholic church.Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: the stupid it burrns.
The Green Wave is not secular. it is simply another version of islam.
Green is the color of al-Islam, the color of Hamas and Hizb’.
Nejad and Khamenei are redstate America– rural, ostentatiously pious, uneducated, older.
The Greens are liberals– urban, young, socially liberal, educated .
Samara Morgan
@WyldPirate: but they are not “stealing converts” from al-Islam are they?
ten years and trillions of taxpayer dollahs ago Iraq was 97% muslim and A-stan was 99% muslim. today A-stan is still 99% muslim and Iraq is prolly 98% muslim, because the number of Iraqi christians is halved.
How did that “Freedom Agenda” work out for you?
handsmile
@KXB: (#93)
While I’m largely in agreement, Kaplan Test Prep Daily continues to employ Dana Priest, who is unquestionably the finest investigative reporter now working for any American newspaper.
She has won two Pulitzer Prizes in six years: in 2006, for her reporting on CIA “black site” prisons; and in 2008 for her series of reports on conditions at Walter Reed Medical Center. Her current book, Top Secret America, on the unchecked proliferation of both government and private intelligence agencies/services since September 11, should be required reading for anyone remotely interested or alarmed about the subject.
It simply staggers me that Priest is not better known or appreciated (though perhaps her disinclination towards media celebrity enables her rare commitment to exposing official malfeasance). However, she ignores my repeated entreaties that she find another employer so that I can completely disregard Potomac Pravda. (Harold Meyerson is good, but ineffectual, on labor issues and Ezra Klein can be read or viewed on various organs.)
Soonergrunt
@Samara Morgan: Look, I know that you’re not very bright, and that you have one note to play, so you play it loud and hard. Good on your for finding your niche, but it would be nice, if every so often, just for shits and grins, you actually posted about either something you actually know about, or when responding to something somebody said, that you actually respond to what that person said, and not what you need them to have said to make your point.
This is called dialog and it’s what adults do.
Comrade Dread
@Samara Morgan: Actually, in many places in Muslim nations, churches and missionaries are reporting more success and conversions than they ever have before.
Of course, this has nothing to do with the United States dropping the freedom bombs, which resulted in a near total cleansing of Christian and Jewish communities in Iraq.
Svensker
@SiubhanDuinne:
She got pissed off at some stuff during the ABL 1.0 hoodoo and hasn’t been back much since.
John S.
@WyldPirate:
Aw, you sure are a sensitive little fella, ain’t ya? I don’t give a rat’s ass whether you call yourself an atheist or an evangelical. I’ll just call you a fucking moron since its a hell of a lot more accurate.
GregB
It seems apparent that there is a fever developing in this nation and that the inevitable outcome will be a war against Iran initiated by Israel.
I have been to two lectures this week and the crux of them both is that Islam is out to conquer the world.
The unstated part is that President Obama is Neville Chamberlain at best and Benedict Arnold at worst.
So, what if there is a large scale terrorist attack on either American or Israeli assets/personnel in the near future?
Just how much pressure will come to bear from Israel, Israel’s supporters in the Republican and Democratic parties, and finally the establishment media.
Take the “We are all Georgians” from 2008 and lots of gasoline.
Just how will such a united front come to bear on President Obama and the Joint Chiefs who appear to be united in their opinion that war against Iran will be a disaster?
THE
@Samara Morgan:
You are dead wrong about President Ahmadinejad. He has a PhD in Transport Engineering from Iran University of Science and Technology. He was a university lecturer there. Wikipedia
Edit: He is a classic technocrat.
Chris
@THE:
But, like George Bush, he knows how to play a hick on TV to appeal to a certain demographic.
THE
@Chris: I would say he was a bright scholarship student who succeeded academically because of the opportunities that opened up in Iran after the revolution. But he remained true to his class origins. (his father was the village blacksmith or something similar if I recall). In this he resembles other “charismatic” revolutionary leaders common in say, Latin America.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: dude, it IS an islamic spring.
you are ducking.
and Iran is a contest between two competing versions of Islam.
i have many niches.
;)
SiubhanDuinne
@Svensker:
Thanks. I was away for a lot of that and didn’t pay much attention to details. (Lucky me, eh?)
SiubhanDuinne
@Samara Morgan:
I can’t tell you what a pleasure and an honor it is to live in a country — nay, a world, indeed, a universe — of which you are the undisputed center.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: Iraq has shariah in the constitution. Egypt has shariah in the constitution, and 72% of the parliament is Noor or MB. Tunisia has shariah in the constitution. In KSA the Quran IS the constitution. Arent they our nominal allies?
Iran has shariah in the constitution. Libya has shariah in the constitution. The MUslim Brotherhood is on the side of the revolutionaries in Jordan, Bahrain, Yeman and Syria.
Do you know the slogan of the MB?
Islam is the answer.
Quit pretending Sooner.
You are whistling in the dark and singing around the campfire.
In the battle for hearts and minds America got its ass handed to it in the ME.
trollhattan
What the hell is the deal with Ruben? A week ago she was a proxy Catholic, not only citing McMegan [say wha?] in a column on the contraception policy, she pasted McMegan paragraphs in the middle. now she’s all “bomb Iran yesterday, doooods.”
Who’s she taking phone calls from, Rove? The brothers Koch?
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: Pakistan has shariah in the constitution and is gunna give America the bum’s rush when Imran Khan gets Zardaris job. Turkey tries to vote shariah into their constitution every two years, and eventually they will succeed.
smell the coffee sooner.
Amir Khalid
@qwerty42:
You’re asking if the Muslim Shi’ite Mullahs would approve a bombing of Islam’s holiest city by their country’s military? I think this can be safely discounted. It would instantly lose them the support of the overwhelmingly Muslim Iranian public and make them Enemy No. 1 to the global ummah. Even the Americans never seriously considered doing that after September 11 (a few right-wing hotheads excepted).
chopper
i was thinking of inventing a spoof character similar to toko-loco, only obsessed with pancakes.
Samara Morgan
@Comrade Dread: ekshually the freedom bombs are resulting in christians being pogromed all over dar ul Islam.
Paul in KY
@Cargo: It is also hubris at its most base form. These evangelicals (or the leader’s sheep) seem to think that if they do A, B, and C, then like a stupid Harry Potter spell Jesus has to come back (from planet Gamma Zornon II in the Pinwheel galaxy, to be precise) and smite all the liberals (and throw the non-converted Jews into the lake of fire, but enough about that).
The bible pretty clearly states that Jesus said he would return when least expected. Also, if Jesus was who he said he was, I don’t think he can be summoned like the ghost of Biggie Smalls.
Pococurante
@Soonergrunt:
Strange that, because all I ever hear her blather on about is the virtue of pastry comestibles. ;-)
Samara Morgan
@chopper: oh, CJ already did that.
her name was St. Pancake.
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: Because the Jews (Israeli politicians) are pretty sure that ain’t gonna happen & if you can get the goyim to do your work for you, what the hey.
chopper
@Paul in KY:
pssh. pancakes aren’t empty calories, jackass. last week I had buckwheat pancakes and they were fuckin’ delicious.
after the muffin spring, the pancake fall.
brantl
All of this is notwithstanding the fact that Iran is perfectly within the NPT treaty that they signed, to develop nuclear power, and notwithstanding the fact that they have done nothing to indicate that they are doing anything else other than developing nuclear power, and radiotherapy.
All of this notwithstanding the fact that Israel developed the bomb in secret, refused to sign an NPT treaty, and bombs their neighbors when the mocd hits them.
Yeah, those evil Iranians, doing exactly what they agreed to do.
brantl
Sorry for the double post.
Samara Morgan
@chopper: no chopper, you got that wrong.
After the Islamic Spring, the American Fall.
;)
Soonergrunt
@Pococurante: The pie filter is incompatible with the admin console. It’s also incompatible with being an Admin, IMO.
Svensker
@Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity:
Yup.
Soonergrunt
I cleared one, and sent the other to the trash. No problem.
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: They are rich right-wing Americans.
chopper
@brantl:
what do you mean? you can make pancakes in any size or shape you want. pancake batter is immune to yeast-based leavening, unlike scone dough. after the muffin spring, the pancake fall.
:)
Comrade Dread
@Samara Morgan: Nonetheless, every resource I’ve read on the topic is reporting larger numbers of converts to Christianity among Muslims.
Which is probably one of the reasons for the pushback.
Paul in KY
@chopper: I have no idea what you are talking about, in relation to my post.
Soonergrunt
@Samara Morgan: And again, being the dumbshit that you are, you missed the point of the part of the post to which you think you replied.
Here, I’ll rewrite that at a third grade level so that even you can get it:
The Iranian government invited all of these Arab Spring activists from across the Arab world to Tehran for a conference at which the Iranians tried very hard to get the idea going that the Arab Spring was the same thing as the Iranian revolution of 1979. That Arab Spring was properly called Islamic Spring because the Iranian revolution started it all.
Nobody there bought into that because first, the Iranian revolution happened 33 years ago, and second because it produced one of the most repressive regimes in all of Islam. Thirdly, the conference attendees didn’t accept the idea because there are stable Islamic countries that don’t have repressive regimes that didn’t have the kinds of problems that led to Arab Spring. That’s why the people who took part in Arab Spring still call it Arab Spring.
My post didn’t have anything to do with the Arab Spring other than Iran’s attempted hijacking of it, which didn’t work, but I’ll note as a side observation that a lot of the younger people who took part in these protests, particularly in Egypt and other places have turned to the the US and US NGOs, as well as European NGOs for advice and assistance.
Another side observation is that while Turkey is an Islamic country, it’s constitution specifically requires that the government be secular, and that this policy is very popular in Turkey, as is the concept that the Turkish army enforce that secularism of the government through coups de etat if necessary (as has happened a couple of times in the past) and that the current government led by Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has, while being an Islamic party, repeatedly upheld the secular state.
Again, you need to address the arguments that people actually make, not the ones you wish they made so that you can play your single note. You repeated failure to do that, in addition to your repeated failure to post about subjects you actually understand is why people laugh at you all the time, and why nobody threads with you more than a few times before filtering you.
The fact that John hasn’t banned you is more about your entertainment value (because you really are fucking funny in a pathetic kind of way) and his tolerance for stupidity than anything else. It certainly isn’t about any actual value you bring. Which is sad because from time to time you show flashes of wisdom to go with your wikipedia-based knowledge which is rather broad (thanks to the aforementioned wikipedia and a few 100-level college classes) but (again, thanks to wikipedia and those 100-level classes) paper thin.
And now I’ve wasted my lunch hour.
Cargo
@WyldPirate:
Your evangelical relatives might not spend all their time discussing bibilical prophecy, the Book of Revelations, Left Behind, the End Times, etc. but their media certainly did and does. And the thrust of almost all of it, with variations, is that “Jesus is coming back, and for that to happen certain conditions have to be met, they involve Israel, angels, trumpets, war and rumors of war, and the sooner it happens the sooner all of us True Believers will be swept up to heaven in the Rapture and the unbelievers will be cast into hell or ruled by the Antichrist for a thousand years (depending on who you particularly ask)”. If your core interest in geopolitics is a world-cleansing battle of Armageddon in the middle east (where do you think the name Armageddon comes from?!) don’t you think it might, MAYBE, affect your attitude towards the VERY REGION your prophecies continually talk about??!
kindness
This thread is a great example of Juicers who over-react and go for the jugular on those they don’t agree with.
Yes, the over the top theatrics gets folks riled. Yes some folks posts aren’t worth the bandwidth they take up. But Come on now people….Even those of you who are right here are looking kinda , well, stupid.
You know the folks that piss you off. You know they say things just to raise your blood pressure. You know people who react when emotions are high have clouded judgement. You should know that even if you’re right you can come off dumb.
You are all smarter than that, even the over the top button pushing trolls.
Bullsmith
Is there a point at which the endless calls for ever greater loyalty to Israel start to backfire?
Paul in KY
@Soonergrunt: Also, Iranians aren’t Arabs & would just be against things in general (or want to rebrand those) that had ‘Arab’ in name.
Paul in KY
@kindness: Thank you for the kind words. We will all endevour to meet your high standards. Please forgive us.
uptown
Some of these idiots should look up Iran in wikipedia. It’s a powerhouse:
– eighteenth largest economy in the world by PPP
– population is 76 million
– ranked among 15 major mineral rich countries, holding some 68 types of minerals
– second in the world in natural gas reserves and third in oil reserves
– Iran placed its domestically built satellite into orbit in 2009, becoming the ninth country in the world capable of both producing a satellite and sending it into space from a domestically made launcher
– 545,000 active troops. Iran also has around 350,000 Reserve Forces.
– Iran has developed its own military industry, produced its own tanks, armored personnel carriers, guided missiles, submarines, military vessels, guided missile destroyer, radar systems, helicopters and fighter planes
It’s also smack dab in the middle of most of the world’s oil fields.
Cassidy
@Samara Morgan: Oh no darlin’. YOU are our crazy ex-girlfriend.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt:
every two years the AKP tries to get shariah back into the constitution.
eventually they will succeed.
nope, its an ISLAMIC Spring. and that makes you wet your pants, right?
because then its not just about arabs, but about all muslims.
so the US wont be able to use the sunnis against the shi’ia and the barelvis against the deobandis anymore.
dar ul Islam is uniting against a common enemy…AmerIsrael.
Samara Morgan
@uptown: thus the resulting 20$ gal price of gasoline should the Israelis attack Qom.
THE
@Samara Morgan: You are dreaming. It’s evolving into a Sunni-Shia conflict again just like the Iran-Iraq war.
US is withdrawing from the ME because US gets its oil from other places now, and China is becoming the largest trading partner of the Gulf states.
Samara Morgan
@THE: no, its evolving into AmerIsrael plus Saud vs the new shi’ia crescent.
the US can get oil from anywhere it likes.
but since Peak Oil KSA sets the global price.
THE
@Samara Morgan: It’s not just Saudi. Egypt and Turkey and Jordan are also backing the Sunni uprising in Syria.
THE
@Samara Morgan:
And FWIW Russia is a bigger oil producer today than Saudi Arabia.
Samara Morgan
@THE: that is because the Syrian uprising is partly a Muslim Brotherhood franchise.
its SOP for the West. get the muslims fighting amongst themselves.
but what is the 800 gorilla in the room?
the border with Israel.
that is why the US cant pull off a Libya.
Samara Morgan
@THE: irrelevent.
Saud still sets the price by regulating flow.
THE
@Samara Morgan: You are utterly delusional.
The US can’t “pull off a Libya” because China and Russia vetoed the resolution in the UN Security Council.
THE
@Samara Morgan: It is a highly controversial question just how much spare capacity KSA has.
barry
@harlana: “does she have any suggestions as to how (WIF THE DEFICIT CRISIS! REMEMBER?!) we would pay yet for another war?? And, of course, we want more dead bodies, right?”
Cut all spending not going to the rich.
Thymezone
@Villago Delenda Est:
— Haaretz
Ambiguous results there. I am trying to find out what the support for war with Iran is within Likud.
qwerty42
@Amir Khalid:
No, sorry. My point was that Jerusalem is important to Islam as well as to Jews and Christians. I cannot imagine any Islamic state as being willing to destroy it. I thought they’d be as likely to destroy Mecca because of the Saudis as they would to be destroy Jerusalem because of the Israelis. They would not.
I had thought this:
…As for Israel, isn’t Jerusalem sacred to Islam as well? And isn’t it an open secret Israel does have nukes and would use them? Given the mutual antipathy between Saudi Arabia and Iran, maybe the Iran would bomb Mecca as well?…
would make that clear, but perhaps it was more weird than I had thought. It was certainly not my intention to suggest they would.