I’ve always, you know, I believe and I think the right approach is to accept this horribly created — in the sense of rape — but nevertheless a gift in a very broken way, the gift of human life, and accept what God has given to you.
I hate these motherfuckers. That’s all you can really say at this point. I hate them and I want to destroy them.
Forever.
8.
terry
Sharon Angle pretty much said the same thing and she almost won. Just sayin’.
9.
SiubhanDuinne
What the FUCK is going on in that photo? Is it real or was it ‘shopped? Crazy stuff.
10.
MikeTheZ
Comment on the linked article;
No, The Frothy One makes a lot of sense here — after all, God himself raped the Virgin Mary, told her to shut the fuck up about it, and behold! right in time for Christmas, all the happy cultists got themselves a little bundle of joy. Amen.
I’ve never thought of it that way before, but suddenly a lot more about Christians makes sense…
11.
Steve
I understand that when you believe in an omnipotent God, it necessarily follows that anything that happens is implicitly the will of God, but in my experience it doesn’t usually help to analyze that chain of logic too closely. Besides, if you get an abortion, maybe that was God’s will too.
12.
brettvk
I find it hard to imagine myself in a position where I turn off my humanity sufficiently to tell a rape victim that a resulting pregnancy is a “blessing” she should embrace. No doubt that’s because I’m a peon who’s never been offered the big money.
I think Rick should get the Dukakis question at the debate tonight — and let’s put the cameras on Mrs. Santorum and her daughters as he answers.
13.
trollhattan
Lost amidst all the Mitt-Mormon/Noot-Catholic kerfuffle, I truly think that Santorum’s very special(tm) brand of Catholicism would need to go on trial in the public sphere were he to get the nomination. Since he won’t, it won’t, but he’s a treacherous example of religious dogma run amok.
14.
brettvk
I find it hard to imagine myself in a position where I turn off my humanity sufficiently to tell a rape victim that a resulting pregnancy is a “blessing” she should embrace. No doubt that’s because I’m a peon who’s never been offered the big money.
I think Rick should get a variation of the Dukakis question at the debate tonight — and let’s put the cameras on Mrs. Santorum and her daughters as he answers.
15.
brettvk
Sorry for the double post. Alas, if we only had an edit function…
I truly think that Santorum’s very special™ brand of Catholicism
pretty scary, isn’t it? I have some relatives/acquaintances who are pretty far gone, but the way he expresses it really is medieval. It’s mildly reassuring that he’ll never be president, it’s depressing that this nitwit was a two-term US senator, and there are a couple left who are every bit as primitive
20.
Violet
Apparently Santorum’s wife lived with (in the “living in sin” kind of way) an abortion doctor twenty some years her senior. Eventually she decided she wanted kids, he didn’t, and they broke up. Her law school contemporaries described her as “progressive” in her politics.
I can’t imagine what kind of deal she made marrying Santorum. All to have kids?
21.
kindness
How is it that horrible people will frequently say and believe they are closer to God than others?
He opposed the death penalty so he was asked, what would you think if your wife were raped and killed? He answered in a calm, logical way, which was considered disqualifying for the presidency.
As a relative of a murder victim, I HATE that trope more than anything. Yes, you can be a relative of a murder victim and still oppose the death penalty.
But I wouldn’t mind if this were used on Santorum. I guess that’s morally inconsistent of me.
25.
The Moar You Know
I’ve always, you know, I believe and I think the right approach is to accept this horribly created — in the sense of rape — but nevertheless a gift in a very broken way, the gift of human life, and accept what God has given to you.
Unless the rapist was black. Then you haul your mother/spouse/daughter off to the nearest legal abortion clinic – which may take a transcontinental trip – and, of course, you lynch the offender.
Least that’s the way they used to do it in the South when I was a child.
Apparently Santorum’s wife lived with (in the “living in sin” kind of way) an abortion doctor twenty some years her senior. Eventually she decided she wanted kids, he didn’t, and they broke up. Her law school contemporaries described her as “progressive” in her politics.
IIUC he was the very doctor who delivered her. I’m guessing she was overcompensating for a few things when she tied the knot with the Rickster.
28.
Brachiator
I’ve always, you know, I believe and I think the right approach is to accept this horribly created — in the sense of rape — but nevertheless a gift in a very broken way, the gift of human life, and accept what God has given to you.
There is no reason to pretend that this position is unique to Santorum. It is consistent with some religious beliefs. You can debate whether it is cruel or argues a deeper compassion.
What is unacceptable is for Santorum to suggest that his view should be imposed on a woman in any way, shape or form. Period.
I believe you are mistaken–I’m pretty sure he was almost 40 years her senior–old enough to be her grandfather. The distinction is important, because it’s not that unusual for women to date guys 20 years older, but 40 years would suggest something odd–especially when you combine it with her switch to the rather rigid but age-appropriate Santorum shortly afterwards.
There’s always something funky with these people. Always.
30.
gelfling545
@trollhattan: Special indeed. I grew up in a Catholic community, attended Catholic schools, etc. Santorum’s “Catholicism” is so extreme that I cannot think of anyone of my acquaintances who would embrace it. His views seem to reflect some poor soul who was cloistered before puberty and has never had any experience of humanity rather than someone who is a spouse, parent and politician. Of course he may just be spouting nonsense to get attention or “deceive the elect” as well.
31.
brettvk
@Spaghetti Lee: When Dukakis ran for POTUS in 1988, he had to deal with a prison furlough program in MA. He hadn’t supported it but it got passed anyway. During his second gov. term it had released one Willie Horton, who committed a rape/murder while out. Bernie Shaw of CNN asked Dukakis during a debate whether he would still oppose the death penalty if his wife Kitty Dukakis was raped and murdered. Dukakis was not an emotive type and his answer was deemed robotic, and it hurt him badly. I think most humans would freeze on such a question — or go off on the asshole who asked it, which I think Dukakis should have done (if it hadn’t been so out-of-character for him).
I don’t think that Santorum’s brand of Catholicism is all that special. I think it’s bog-standard Bishop-level Catholicism. It’s not regular parishioner-in-the-pews Catholicism, but those folks aren’t the ones who want to run the country.
You can debate whether it is cruel or argues a deeper compassion.
Compulsive compassion is not compassion in any sense. That self-same prescribed/compulsory behavior is evident when the unwanted children are forced upon the unwilling, and the tragedies arising from this populate our streets with criminals, many of whom are acting out of anger from abuse.
Where are these pro-lifers when it comes to adopting these unwanted babies?
35.
jl
OK, well, Rih is free to make his views known, and I thank him for his suggestion. It is a legitimate viewpoint.
Any women, in such a tragic circumstance, in the early stages of pregnancy, all things considered, is free to follow his advice.
And, also too, free not follow his advice.
The little problem is that if the Santorum wing of the GOP were in control, it would not be just advice. This harsh view would a lot more than a suggestion. And that is the big problem.
For some people, the idea that the FSM, God, nature, evolution, whatever, designed things so that certainly at conceptions and in the first trimester, things are arranged so that the choice is
let the woman decide,
or
totalitarian, infeasible, impractical, unenforceable, nightmarish discriminatory sexual and reproductive police state that oppresses women.
Now, let’s see if we can get the Santorum wing of the GOP to be honest about contraception, and we can discuss the problems with that turning their views and suggestions into law.
36.
bemused
It just kills me how people like Santorum can be so blase about other people’s lives. It’s not like he’d extend a hand to help a victim.
I can’t be the only one who remembers the SNL skit that parodied the Dukakis Question. From memory, when they ask the question of Bill Clinton (Phil Hartman), Clinton replies:
“Well, obviously, no one wants to see Kitty Dukakis raped and murdered. But if she HAD to be raped and murdered, I’d hope that it happened in ARKANSAS, because no state is tougher on crime! We’re second in execution by lethal injection, and first in crushed by heavy stones!”
He’s Opus Dei isn’t he? Mel Gibson and his father’s kind of Catholicsm?
39.
velouria
I wish I could say this kind of shit was surprising from wingers, but it really isn’t.
40.
jl
Sorry no edit so typo problems results. I meant to type
For some people IT IS DIFFICULT TO ACCEPT, the idea that the FSM, God, nature, evolution, whatever, designed things so that certainly at conceptions and in the first trimester, things are arranged so that the choice is
let the woman decide,
or
totalitarian, infeasible, impractical, unenforceable, nightmarish discriminatory sexual and reproductive police state that oppresses women.
BUT THEY NEED TO ACCEPT IT AS MOST OF HUMANITY HAS ACCEPTED IT THROUGH HISTORY.
41.
MikeTheZ
@Calouste: He already did redefine Rick. “Rick” means to remove with one’s tongue, making “Rick Santorum” the most disgusting 2 word sentence in the English language, narrowly beating out “Vote Republican”. (Source: Savage’s podcast from last week)
Apparently Santorum’s wife lived with [. . .] an abortion doctor twenty-some years her senior.
Try closer to 40 years her senior. She was early 20s, he was early 60s. And, oh, yeah, he was the doctor who had delivered her as a baby. Don’t think they had any contact while she was growing up, so there’s that.
Let me add that usually people’s romantic/domestic/lifestyle arrangements should be none of our business, but since she is married to the poster boy for the “Let me get all up in your business” religious right her own lifestyle choices are fair game for comment.
ETA: I see EconWatcher noted the age gap.
43.
Villago Delenda Est
All those Jews murdered by dis assembly line during WWII? It was the will of God that it happen.
I’m so relieved. I thought some really evil men were behind it. Now I know that a loving God did it for their own good.
Wiping Santorum off the face of the Earth is not enough.
44.
Lojasmo
Whew…thank goodness Greenwald never said anything stupid about rape.
45.
Egg Berry
@gelfling545: Isn’t Santorum a member of Opus Dei? That was also JPII’s hobby-horse.
He’s Opus Dei isn’t he? Mel Gibson and his father’s kind of Catholicsm?
1) Dunno, and as noted below, don’t really care.
2) Opus Dei is tolerated by the hierarchy, so it must be useful to them; they could shut it down tomorrow if they really wanted to, so I don’t distinguish between Opus Dei and the hierarchy. Also, although the Bishops have issued disappointed letters about economic matters, no Bishops have threatened to withhold communion from Catholic wingnuts based on their economic views. That is not the case w/r/t abortion.
3) If official church doctrine is that abortion should not be permitted except in some limited corner cases (if both the mother AND the fetus would otherwise die), then I fail to see the distinction between official doctrine and Santorum’s position here. Santorum’s just a lot dumber than your average Bishop, and consequently less able to hide the vileness of the position.
47.
beltane
@Violet: See, if God had been kind enough to make a rapist impregnate her she wouldn’t have had to go marry Rick. She must not have prayed hard enough.
48.
Emma
@MikeTheZ: I wish people wouldn’t say stupid things like that. It makes them sound as ignorant as the people they despise.
49.
scav
A Little Blessing, served up with a lifetime of similarly approved social disdain for being an unwed mother unless you hurry up and submit to any good man that will make an honest woman of you. God promotes the Sanctity of Marriage in mysterious ways.
I had my run in with the Charismatics back in college, and they’re almost a culty bunch. A lot of stealth recruitment in colleges and universities.
51.
Holden Pattern
@Paddy: Color me unsurprised. But as noted above, there’s no particular reason to separate the looney-tunes sub-cults from the hierarchy.
I don’t attribute this belief set to ordinary parishioners, of course, though sadly, their continued attendance and support allows the Bishops to say that the Bishops speak for a lot of Catholics who don’t in fact support their political positions at all.
52.
beltane
@Paddy: This would make the Santorums fake Christians according to my deceased Sicilian mother-in-law. Anything that smacked of Protestant evangelicism, such as speaking in tongues, marked one as a “Fake Christian”. It goes without saying that Fake Christians were on the fast-track to spend eternity in the fiery pit.
53.
Violet
Sorry, I got the age gap wrong between Santorum’s wife and her abortion-doctor-who-delivered-her live-in lover. It was 40 years. It’s creepy for sure.
I just can’t imagine what sort of deal she made in her head to make herself marry someone like Santorum. That she could do that and then become a baby-making machine just creeps me out. What kind of weirdos are they?
54.
Scott
At least Santorum is consistent. He believes life begins at conception and that abortion is murder. All he is saying that a child conceived by rape or incest has just as much right to life as any other child. I think the no abortion except for certain exceptions is the inconsistent position.
55.
lamh35
Ya know who else “palled” around with Saul Alinsky…Daddy Romney that’s who.
It’s like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon…
@Benjamin Franklin: RE: You can debate whether it is cruel or argues a deeper compassion.
Compulsive compassion is not compassion in any sense. That self-same prescribed/compulsory behavior is evident when the unwanted children are forced upon the unwilling, and the tragedies arising from this populate our streets with criminals, many of whom are acting out of anger from abuse.
Yep. Children who are unwanted often have extra burdens. But if you think a little more, you might see that this is not really entirely relevant.
I said, as firmly as I could, that I find it despicable to try to force a woman to continue a pregnancy against her will. Period.
More than this, life is complicated. Here is a story about a woman who searched for decades for the child that she wanted. A child born of rape.
Look at mother and daughter and how happy they are to have found one another.
I refuse to second guess anything about what this woman went through, or the decisions that she made.
Where are these pro-lifers when it comes to adopting these unwanted babies?
I’m the wrong person to ask about this.
But it is also secondary to the woman’s dilemma and her choices.
57.
gelfling545
@Egg Berry: Is he? I hadn’t seen that anywhere but it would make sense if he was. I haven’t been Catholic in over 30 years but still know many. They all think Opus Dei folks are nuts.
58.
SuzieC
@brettvk: Who in the MSM would dare ask such a question?
Where are these pro-lifers when it comes to adopting these unwanted babies?
I thihk they all get dropped off at Michele and Marcus’ joint.
61.
Benjamin Franklin
WTF? continuing…
But it is also secondary to the woman’s dilemma and her choices.
Yep. Children who are unwanted often have extra burdens. But if you think a little more, you might see that this is not really entirely relevant.
!.)
I disagree
62.
Benjamin Franklin
Whats up with the server?
63.
hitchhiker
Jeebus fork. The what do you think a woman should do, sir? is the easy part. The hard part — and the thing I am waiting ever so patiently to see on live television — is the follow up question:
What are you willing to do to enforce your views on that, sir?
To put it in Kitty D terms, if your own 12 year old daughter were gang-raped and became pregnant, how far would you go to prevent her from terminating the pregnancy?
Put her under house arrest?
Have her followed?
Some other plan?
Because if you want to make something like abortion against the law, as he emphatically does, you must confront the practical effect of your position.
Please, media, ask him. How far would you go? And then ask another followup:
If you found that she’d broken the law you would pass and gone ahead and ended the pregnancy, what punishment would you enforce on her?
Jail time?
Execution for the premeditated murder?
Something else?
64.
OzoneR
Stupid Santorum, does he understand its only ok to take rape lightly when you win a lot of college football games?
Ruck Santorum was part of the Abramof/Marianas gang who forced abortions on the sweat shop workers there.
He should wind up as a sad example of why you should never get your fly zipper caught in a pretzel making machine. Under a Republican health care system that would charge him for the cup he would use to beg in the street.
Not that I’m upset about Republicans today or anything. Heck, I’d drop a quarter in his cup.
And may some of the children escape and get therapy.
66.
brettvk
It must be a different world that Santorum lives in, where he’s never had his autonomy constrained by other people or events he couldn’t control. Or maybe the last time that happened was during his childhood, and it was such a scarifying event that he’s dedicated his life to retaliating on the world (especially the female half of it) to heal himself.
67.
Betsy
@Benjamin Franklin:
Where are these pro-lifers when it comes to adopting these unwanted babies?
Actually, ever since Roe, it has become much, much harder to find healthy babies (particularly white babies) to adopt. Because, contra pro life fairy tales about “post-abortion trauma,” carrying a child for 9 months, giving birth, and then surrendering it for adoption is tremendously difficult, and is ACTUALLY traumatic. So women with unwanted pregnancies typically abort or decide to keep the baby. Some pro-choicers (c.f. Amanda Marcotte, IIRC) have speculated that anti-choicers wish to create a bigger supply of adoptable infants.
68.
PurpleGirl
@SiubhanDuinne: I believe that was a photo taken when he conceded losing his last Senate campaign. He and his wife had several of the kids on stage and the one girl was showing how sad she was. It’s a creepy picture.
@Betsy: People who foster are reporting a far more difficult choice: for others. Because of the hysteria over abortion, a lot of people poorly equipped are opting to have the child anyway. Only to give the baby up, or have them taken away, because they can’t handle proper raising. Now we have an emotionally damaged toddler no one wants to take on.
70.
brettvk
@Betsy: This thought (not enough [white] babies for adopting parents) makes me nuts. There aren’t enough babies in the world already? I’m joyously childless myself, and it’s endlessly irksome to see all these alleged child-lovers blithely overlook the welfare of all the kids already here in favor of the theoretical children that haven’t been born and thus, conveniently, make no demands on the fetus worshippers.
“Rick” means to remove with one’s tongue, making “Rick Santorum” the most disgusting 2 word sentence in the English language, narrowly beating out “Vote Republican”. (Source: Savage’s podcast from last week)
He already did redefine Rick. “Rick” means to remove with one’s tongue, making “Rick Santorum” the most disgusting 2 word sentence in the English language, narrowly beating out “Vote Republican”. (Source: Savage’s podcast from last week)
The only thing RS is qualified for is gravy mopper. And he doesn”t even need any towels.
I think that what Brachiator is trying to say is that it’s not as simple as “abortion solves the problem of unwanted babies!” A woman’s feelings towards her pregnancy can be very complicated and it’s not entirely unheard of for someone to continue a pregnancy even if it was the result of rape.
Of course, you weren’t saying “abortion is always awesome!” either, but sometimes Brach is just looking for a fight.
76.
Bruce S
Truth is, this is a totally logical position for someone who equates abortion with murder of a human being. It’s not really that extreme a conclusion if that’s the belief. Which is why I personally consider that belief indefensible, cruel and crackpot at best.
Look at mother and daughter and how happy they are to have found one another.
__
I refuse to second guess anything about what this woman went through, or the decisions that she made.
Yes, that could be seen as a heartwarming story.
However, that woman made no decisions that we can approve or disapprove of today. She did not decide to be raped. She did not decide to continue the pregnancy. She did not decide to give the baby up for adoption. All three of those were forced on her. The only choice she has ever had in this sad history was agreeing to meet the daughter 80 years later.
78.
mantis
accept what God has given to you
Did he just call god a rapist? Hey, I think this guy just called god a rapist! All hail the mighty rape god!
Sheds some light on the whole Mary story, though, doesn’t it?
@Bruce S: They have an extraordinarily simplistic conception of “life.”. It’s part of a religion that regards humans as somehow not part of the biology of life on this planet. That they don’t have any responsibility for respecting other life. Not regarding women as human. A paranoid schizophrenic is about as sincere as you would ever encounter.
It doesn’t make them right. It doesn’t even make them consistent.
80.
Ron
Not that’s anywhere near this level of disgustingness, but when some nutjob complained to him that Obama was an “avowed Muslim” and not a legitimate president and asked why nothing was being done to take him out of office, Santorum only said “I’m trying to get him out of government”. Walnuts was not exactly always a classy candidate but at least he corrected people on crap like that.
I wish people wouldn’t say stupid things like that. It makes them sound as ignorant as the people they despise.
How so precisely? Did God ask Mary for her consent before impregnating her with Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Did He in his Infinite Wisdom ask her to be the Blessed Mother of His Holy Infant? Or did He do the deed and then send the Angel Gabriel in when she was predictably freaking out to say “Don’t worry. God did this to you so you should shut up and accept it. And don’t even think of visiting the little old lady down the street who normally handles unwanted pregnancies!”
If we accept the Bible as literally true (as the majority of Republicans do), then God raped Mary and then coerced her into becoming His brood mare, because that’s all Christianity has ever expected a woman to be. Hell, the only reason Our Lady the Blessed Virgin ever became more than a footnote in the Catholic liturgy was because Catholicism absorbed so many pagan matriarchal traditions.
82.
liberal
@EconWatcher:
IIRC an article on abortion rights in one of the first issues of The American Prospect (God, it was really awesome at the beginning) talked about this, but also pointed out that during the period of time when a woman can get an abortion in those countries, it’s much easier for her to go about it.
I think the no abortion except for certain exceptions is the inconsistent position.
Not necessarily inconsistent if you take the idea that the fetus and mother are two persons with competing interests. I believe the thinking is that a woman who consents to sex has consented to pregnancy since that is a foreseeable consequence of sex, whereas a woman who is raped did not consent and, in fact, may suffer a continual psychological trauma during the pregnancy that can be said to trump the fetus’s rights, at least early on in the pregnancy. It’s a weak argument but not completely indefensible. Mind you, I don’t think the fetus has any rights at all until it draws its first breath, so I don’t have to worry about making either argument.
During the Amendment 26 controversy hear in Mississippi, I got into a FB argument with a Xtianist woman who claimed to have been the product of rape herself and who flat out said that a teenage girl who got pregnant through rape and had an illegal abortion should get the death penalty. I ended the conversation because I was on the verge of saying something utterly hateful to the woman but I didn’t want to cause problems for the friend whose FB page we were arguing on.
boy the remaining republican candidates are like the four horsemen of repulsive party stereotypes: aloof countryclub plutocrat, Christian crotch-sniffer, hatemonger, and goldbug crank.
86.
TenguPhule
a Xtianist woman who claimed to have been the product of rape herself and who flat out said that a teenage girl who got pregnant through rape and had an illegal abortion should get the death penalty.
I think we’ve hit the event horizon phase.
After this, the wingularity is nigh.
@Spaghetti Lee: To be roughly equivalent, it would have to be “If your daughter was raped and impregnated by a black man, would you thank her rapist for helping to bring new life into the world?”
89.
Brutusettu
The only “gift” here is that Rick won’t ever be POTUS.
Where are these pro-lifers when it comes to adopting these unwanted babies?
China. Fewer regulations.
They are also the first to cry for the media when the Chinese bait and switch them. Go figure.
91.
Paul in KY
@Violet: He was 40 years older. Delivered her too, back in the day.
92.
Paul in KY
Why in the Hell would you want a kid in the world where it has been demonstrated that the kid has fucked up genes (due to the biological father being a rapist sicko)?
Who wants to raise a kid that may off you in the night sometime?
Alexandra
He thinks he’s going to be on the Republican ticket. I don’t think so.
EvolutionaryDesign
Time to add to Dan Savage’s ‘Santorum’ definition.
Egg Berry
That’s three letters more than my slack jaw could muster.
Catsy
…the fucking fuck?
I can’t even begin to fathom the sick, unhinged, broken soul it takes to think something like that, let alone say it.
MikeBoyScout
I really regret not taking the SOB out in 1990.
Sorry all.
Jennifer
And when life hands you anal rape, you make Santorum.
Midnight Marauder
I hate these motherfuckers. That’s all you can really say at this point. I hate them and I want to destroy them.
Forever.
terry
Sharon Angle pretty much said the same thing and she almost won. Just sayin’.
SiubhanDuinne
What the FUCK is going on in that photo? Is it real or was it ‘shopped? Crazy stuff.
MikeTheZ
Comment on the linked article;
I’ve never thought of it that way before, but suddenly a lot more about Christians makes sense…
Steve
I understand that when you believe in an omnipotent God, it necessarily follows that anything that happens is implicitly the will of God, but in my experience it doesn’t usually help to analyze that chain of logic too closely. Besides, if you get an abortion, maybe that was God’s will too.
brettvk
I find it hard to imagine myself in a position where I turn off my humanity sufficiently to tell a rape victim that a resulting pregnancy is a “blessing” she should embrace. No doubt that’s because I’m a peon who’s never been offered the big money.
I think Rick should get the Dukakis question at the debate tonight — and let’s put the cameras on Mrs. Santorum and her daughters as he answers.
trollhattan
Lost amidst all the Mitt-Mormon/Noot-Catholic kerfuffle, I truly think that Santorum’s very special(tm) brand of Catholicism would need to go on trial in the public sphere were he to get the nomination. Since he won’t, it won’t, but he’s a treacherous example of religious dogma run amok.
brettvk
I find it hard to imagine myself in a position where I turn off my humanity sufficiently to tell a rape victim that a resulting pregnancy is a “blessing” she should embrace. No doubt that’s because I’m a peon who’s never been offered the big money.
I think Rick should get a variation of the Dukakis question at the debate tonight — and let’s put the cameras on Mrs. Santorum and her daughters as he answers.
brettvk
Sorry for the double post. Alas, if we only had an edit function…
trollhattan
@SiubhanDuinne:
It’s frealz, from his concession speech when he lost the Senate seat. It would seem the Props never get a day off.
Spaghetti Lee
@brettvk:
Young person here-what’s the “dukakis question?”
Benjamin Franklin
Our allies in Afghanistan have the answer; Put the victim in jail until she agrees to marry the rapist.
So, she has that opportunity to rise above…
Religious orthodoxy has the answers to your questions.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@trollhattan:
pretty scary, isn’t it? I have some relatives/acquaintances who are pretty far gone, but the way he expresses it really is medieval. It’s mildly reassuring that he’ll never be president, it’s depressing that this nitwit was a two-term US senator, and there are a couple left who are every bit as primitive
Violet
Apparently Santorum’s wife lived with (in the “living in sin” kind of way) an abortion doctor twenty some years her senior. Eventually she decided she wanted kids, he didn’t, and they broke up. Her law school contemporaries described her as “progressive” in her politics.
I can’t imagine what kind of deal she made marrying Santorum. All to have kids?
kindness
How is it that horrible people will frequently say and believe they are closer to God than others?
Sanitorum is a loathsome dude.
sharl
@Spaghetti Lee:
The “Dukakis question”.
EconWatcher
Somewhat OT, but I was surprised to see that abortion laws are generally much more restrictive in Western Europe than here. Not what I expected:
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2012/01/much-more-restricted-in-europe.html#more
gogol's wife
@Spaghetti Lee:
He opposed the death penalty so he was asked, what would you think if your wife were raped and killed? He answered in a calm, logical way, which was considered disqualifying for the presidency.
As a relative of a murder victim, I HATE that trope more than anything. Yes, you can be a relative of a murder victim and still oppose the death penalty.
But I wouldn’t mind if this were used on Santorum. I guess that’s morally inconsistent of me.
The Moar You Know
Unless the rapist was black. Then you haul your mother/spouse/daughter off to the nearest legal abortion clinic – which may take a transcontinental trip – and, of course, you lynch the offender.
Least that’s the way they used to do it in the South when I was a child.
Benjamin Franklin
@The Moar You Know:
1967?
trollhattan
@Violet:
IIUC he was the very doctor who delivered her. I’m guessing she was overcompensating for a few things when she tied the knot with the Rickster.
Brachiator
There is no reason to pretend that this position is unique to Santorum. It is consistent with some religious beliefs. You can debate whether it is cruel or argues a deeper compassion.
What is unacceptable is for Santorum to suggest that his view should be imposed on a woman in any way, shape or form. Period.
EconWatcher
@Violet:
I believe you are mistaken–I’m pretty sure he was almost 40 years her senior–old enough to be her grandfather. The distinction is important, because it’s not that unusual for women to date guys 20 years older, but 40 years would suggest something odd–especially when you combine it with her switch to the rather rigid but age-appropriate Santorum shortly afterwards.
There’s always something funky with these people. Always.
gelfling545
@trollhattan: Special indeed. I grew up in a Catholic community, attended Catholic schools, etc. Santorum’s “Catholicism” is so extreme that I cannot think of anyone of my acquaintances who would embrace it. His views seem to reflect some poor soul who was cloistered before puberty and has never had any experience of humanity rather than someone who is a spouse, parent and politician. Of course he may just be spouting nonsense to get attention or “deceive the elect” as well.
brettvk
@Spaghetti Lee: When Dukakis ran for POTUS in 1988, he had to deal with a prison furlough program in MA. He hadn’t supported it but it got passed anyway. During his second gov. term it had released one Willie Horton, who committed a rape/murder while out. Bernie Shaw of CNN asked Dukakis during a debate whether he would still oppose the death penalty if his wife Kitty Dukakis was raped and murdered. Dukakis was not an emotive type and his answer was deemed robotic, and it hurt him badly. I think most humans would freeze on such a question — or go off on the asshole who asked it, which I think Dukakis should have done (if it hadn’t been so out-of-character for him).
Calouste
@EvolutionaryDesign:
Dan Savage said he was going to redefine “Rick” (NSFW), if frothy didn’t slow down.
Holden Pattern
I don’t think that Santorum’s brand of Catholicism is all that special. I think it’s bog-standard Bishop-level Catholicism. It’s not regular parishioner-in-the-pews Catholicism, but those folks aren’t the ones who want to run the country.
Benjamin Franklin
@Brachiator:
Compulsive compassion is not compassion in any sense. That self-same prescribed/compulsory behavior is evident when the unwanted children are forced upon the unwilling, and the tragedies arising from this populate our streets with criminals, many of whom are acting out of anger from abuse.
Where are these pro-lifers when it comes to adopting these unwanted babies?
jl
OK, well, Rih is free to make his views known, and I thank him for his suggestion. It is a legitimate viewpoint.
Any women, in such a tragic circumstance, in the early stages of pregnancy, all things considered, is free to follow his advice.
And, also too, free not follow his advice.
The little problem is that if the Santorum wing of the GOP were in control, it would not be just advice. This harsh view would a lot more than a suggestion. And that is the big problem.
For some people, the idea that the FSM, God, nature, evolution, whatever, designed things so that certainly at conceptions and in the first trimester, things are arranged so that the choice is
let the woman decide,
or
totalitarian, infeasible, impractical, unenforceable, nightmarish discriminatory sexual and reproductive police state that oppresses women.
Now, let’s see if we can get the Santorum wing of the GOP to be honest about contraception, and we can discuss the problems with that turning their views and suggestions into law.
bemused
It just kills me how people like Santorum can be so blase about other people’s lives. It’s not like he’d extend a hand to help a victim.
Jennifer
I can’t be the only one who remembers the SNL skit that parodied the Dukakis Question. From memory, when they ask the question of Bill Clinton (Phil Hartman), Clinton replies:
“Well, obviously, no one wants to see Kitty Dukakis raped and murdered. But if she HAD to be raped and murdered, I’d hope that it happened in ARKANSAS, because no state is tougher on crime! We’re second in execution by lethal injection, and first in crushed by heavy stones!”
Karen
@Holden Pattern:
He’s Opus Dei isn’t he? Mel Gibson and his father’s kind of Catholicsm?
velouria
I wish I could say this kind of shit was surprising from wingers, but it really isn’t.
jl
Sorry no edit so typo problems results. I meant to type
For some people IT IS DIFFICULT TO ACCEPT, the idea that the FSM, God, nature, evolution, whatever, designed things so that certainly at conceptions and in the first trimester, things are arranged so that the choice is
let the woman decide,
or
totalitarian, infeasible, impractical, unenforceable, nightmarish discriminatory sexual and reproductive police state that oppresses women.
BUT THEY NEED TO ACCEPT IT AS MOST OF HUMANITY HAS ACCEPTED IT THROUGH HISTORY.
MikeTheZ
@Calouste: He already did redefine Rick. “Rick” means to remove with one’s tongue, making “Rick Santorum” the most disgusting 2 word sentence in the English language, narrowly beating out “Vote Republican”. (Source: Savage’s podcast from last week)
Steeplejack
@Violet:
Try closer to 40 years her senior. She was early 20s, he was early 60s. And, oh, yeah, he was the doctor who had delivered her as a baby. Don’t think they had any contact while she was growing up, so there’s that.
Let me add that usually people’s romantic/domestic/lifestyle arrangements should be none of our business, but since she is married to the poster boy for the “Let me get all up in your business” religious right her own lifestyle choices are fair game for comment.
ETA: I see EconWatcher noted the age gap.
Villago Delenda Est
All those Jews murdered by dis assembly line during WWII? It was the will of God that it happen.
I’m so relieved. I thought some really evil men were behind it. Now I know that a loving God did it for their own good.
Wiping Santorum off the face of the Earth is not enough.
Lojasmo
Whew…thank goodness Greenwald never said anything stupid about rape.
Egg Berry
@gelfling545: Isn’t Santorum a member of Opus Dei? That was also JPII’s hobby-horse.
Holden Pattern
@Karen:
1) Dunno, and as noted below, don’t really care.
2) Opus Dei is tolerated by the hierarchy, so it must be useful to them; they could shut it down tomorrow if they really wanted to, so I don’t distinguish between Opus Dei and the hierarchy. Also, although the Bishops have issued disappointed letters about economic matters, no Bishops have threatened to withhold communion from Catholic wingnuts based on their economic views. That is not the case w/r/t abortion.
3) If official church doctrine is that abortion should not be permitted except in some limited corner cases (if both the mother AND the fetus would otherwise die), then I fail to see the distinction between official doctrine and Santorum’s position here. Santorum’s just a lot dumber than your average Bishop, and consequently less able to hide the vileness of the position.
beltane
@Violet: See, if God had been kind enough to make a rapist impregnate her she wouldn’t have had to go marry Rick. She must not have prayed hard enough.
Emma
@MikeTheZ: I wish people wouldn’t say stupid things like that. It makes them sound as ignorant as the people they despise.
scav
A Little Blessing, served up with a lifetime of similarly approved social disdain for being an unwed mother unless you hurry up and submit to any good man that will make an honest woman of you. God promotes the Sanctity of Marriage in mysterious ways.
Paddy
@Holden Pattern: The Santorums are part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal (speaking in tongues, etc) and were “invested” as Knight and Dame of Magistral Grace of the Knights of Malta back in 2004. Some sort of Opus Dei shindig.
I had my run in with the Charismatics back in college, and they’re almost a culty bunch. A lot of stealth recruitment in colleges and universities.
Holden Pattern
@Paddy: Color me unsurprised. But as noted above, there’s no particular reason to separate the looney-tunes sub-cults from the hierarchy.
I don’t attribute this belief set to ordinary parishioners, of course, though sadly, their continued attendance and support allows the Bishops to say that the Bishops speak for a lot of Catholics who don’t in fact support their political positions at all.
beltane
@Paddy: This would make the Santorums fake Christians according to my deceased Sicilian mother-in-law. Anything that smacked of Protestant evangelicism, such as speaking in tongues, marked one as a “Fake Christian”. It goes without saying that Fake Christians were on the fast-track to spend eternity in the fiery pit.
Violet
Sorry, I got the age gap wrong between Santorum’s wife and her abortion-doctor-who-delivered-her live-in lover. It was 40 years. It’s creepy for sure.
I just can’t imagine what sort of deal she made in her head to make herself marry someone like Santorum. That she could do that and then become a baby-making machine just creeps me out. What kind of weirdos are they?
Scott
At least Santorum is consistent. He believes life begins at conception and that abortion is murder. All he is saying that a child conceived by rape or incest has just as much right to life as any other child. I think the no abortion except for certain exceptions is the inconsistent position.
lamh35
Ya know who else “palled” around with Saul Alinsky…Daddy Romney that’s who.
It’s like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon…
Mitt Romney’s Father Palled Around With Saul Alinsky
Brachiator
@Benjamin Franklin: RE: You can debate whether it is cruel or argues a deeper compassion.
Yep. Children who are unwanted often have extra burdens. But if you think a little more, you might see that this is not really entirely relevant.
I said, as firmly as I could, that I find it despicable to try to force a woman to continue a pregnancy against her will. Period.
More than this, life is complicated. Here is a story about a woman who searched for decades for the child that she wanted. A child born of rape.
Look at mother and daughter and how happy they are to have found one another.
I refuse to second guess anything about what this woman went through, or the decisions that she made.
I’m the wrong person to ask about this.
But it is also secondary to the woman’s dilemma and her choices.
gelfling545
@Egg Berry: Is he? I hadn’t seen that anywhere but it would make sense if he was. I haven’t been Catholic in over 30 years but still know many. They all think Opus Dei folks are nuts.
SuzieC
@brettvk: Who in the MSM would dare ask such a question?
Benjamin Franklin
@Brachiator:
I disagree
trollhattan
@Benjamin Franklin:
I thihk they all get dropped off at Michele and Marcus’ joint.
Benjamin Franklin
WTF? continuing…
!.)
I disagree
Benjamin Franklin
Whats up with the server?
hitchhiker
Jeebus fork. The what do you think a woman should do, sir? is the easy part. The hard part — and the thing I am waiting ever so patiently to see on live television — is the follow up question:
What are you willing to do to enforce your views on that, sir?
To put it in Kitty D terms, if your own 12 year old daughter were gang-raped and became pregnant, how far would you go to prevent her from terminating the pregnancy?
Put her under house arrest?
Have her followed?
Some other plan?
Because if you want to make something like abortion against the law, as he emphatically does, you must confront the practical effect of your position.
Please, media, ask him. How far would you go? And then ask another followup:
If you found that she’d broken the law you would pass and gone ahead and ended the pregnancy, what punishment would you enforce on her?
Jail time?
Execution for the premeditated murder?
Something else?
OzoneR
Stupid Santorum, does he understand its only ok to take rape lightly when you win a lot of college football games?
WereBear (itouch)
Ruck Santorum was part of the Abramof/Marianas gang who forced abortions on the sweat shop workers there.
He should wind up as a sad example of why you should never get your fly zipper caught in a pretzel making machine. Under a Republican health care system that would charge him for the cup he would use to beg in the street.
Not that I’m upset about Republicans today or anything. Heck, I’d drop a quarter in his cup.
And may some of the children escape and get therapy.
brettvk
It must be a different world that Santorum lives in, where he’s never had his autonomy constrained by other people or events he couldn’t control. Or maybe the last time that happened was during his childhood, and it was such a scarifying event that he’s dedicated his life to retaliating on the world (especially the female half of it) to heal himself.
Betsy
@Benjamin Franklin:
Where are these pro-lifers when it comes to adopting these unwanted babies?
Actually, ever since Roe, it has become much, much harder to find healthy babies (particularly white babies) to adopt. Because, contra pro life fairy tales about “post-abortion trauma,” carrying a child for 9 months, giving birth, and then surrendering it for adoption is tremendously difficult, and is ACTUALLY traumatic. So women with unwanted pregnancies typically abort or decide to keep the baby. Some pro-choicers (c.f. Amanda Marcotte, IIRC) have speculated that anti-choicers wish to create a bigger supply of adoptable infants.
PurpleGirl
@SiubhanDuinne: I believe that was a photo taken when he conceded losing his last Senate campaign. He and his wife had several of the kids on stage and the one girl was showing how sad she was. It’s a creepy picture.
WereBear (itouch)
@Betsy: People who foster are reporting a far more difficult choice: for others. Because of the hysteria over abortion, a lot of people poorly equipped are opting to have the child anyway. Only to give the baby up, or have them taken away, because they can’t handle proper raising. Now we have an emotionally damaged toddler no one wants to take on.
brettvk
@Betsy: This thought (not enough [white] babies for adopting parents) makes me nuts. There aren’t enough babies in the world already? I’m joyously childless myself, and it’s endlessly irksome to see all these alleged child-lovers blithely overlook the welfare of all the kids already here in favor of the theoretical children that haven’t been born and thus, conveniently, make no demands on the fetus worshippers.
Chuck Butcher
I fail to see where any Pro-choice politician has proposed forcing woment to have abortions…
Thoughtcrime
@MikeTheZ:
Thoughtcrime
@Thoughtcrime:
FYWP! Still no edit button, I see. I’ll try again.
Thoughtcrime
@MikeTheZ:
The only thing RS is qualified for is gravy mopper. And he doesn”t even need any towels.
Mnemosyne
@Benjamin Franklin:
I think that what Brachiator is trying to say is that it’s not as simple as “abortion solves the problem of unwanted babies!” A woman’s feelings towards her pregnancy can be very complicated and it’s not entirely unheard of for someone to continue a pregnancy even if it was the result of rape.
Of course, you weren’t saying “abortion is always awesome!” either, but sometimes Brach is just looking for a fight.
Bruce S
Truth is, this is a totally logical position for someone who equates abortion with murder of a human being. It’s not really that extreme a conclusion if that’s the belief. Which is why I personally consider that belief indefensible, cruel and crackpot at best.
Nutella
@Brachiator:
Yes, that could be seen as a heartwarming story.
However, that woman made no decisions that we can approve or disapprove of today. She did not decide to be raped. She did not decide to continue the pregnancy. She did not decide to give the baby up for adoption. All three of those were forced on her. The only choice she has ever had in this sad history was agreeing to meet the daughter 80 years later.
mantis
Did he just call god a rapist? Hey, I think this guy just called god a rapist! All hail the mighty rape god!
Sheds some light on the whole Mary story, though, doesn’t it?
WereBear (itouch)
@Bruce S: They have an extraordinarily simplistic conception of “life.”. It’s part of a religion that regards humans as somehow not part of the biology of life on this planet. That they don’t have any responsibility for respecting other life. Not regarding women as human. A paranoid schizophrenic is about as sincere as you would ever encounter.
It doesn’t make them right. It doesn’t even make them consistent.
Ron
Not that’s anywhere near this level of disgustingness, but when some nutjob complained to him that Obama was an “avowed Muslim” and not a legitimate president and asked why nothing was being done to take him out of office, Santorum only said “I’m trying to get him out of government”. Walnuts was not exactly always a classy candidate but at least he corrected people on crap like that.
Citizen Alan
@Emma:
How so precisely? Did God ask Mary for her consent before impregnating her with Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Did He in his Infinite Wisdom ask her to be the Blessed Mother of His Holy Infant? Or did He do the deed and then send the Angel Gabriel in when she was predictably freaking out to say “Don’t worry. God did this to you so you should shut up and accept it. And don’t even think of visiting the little old lady down the street who normally handles unwanted pregnancies!”
If we accept the Bible as literally true (as the majority of Republicans do), then God raped Mary and then coerced her into becoming His brood mare, because that’s all Christianity has ever expected a woman to be. Hell, the only reason Our Lady the Blessed Virgin ever became more than a footnote in the Catholic liturgy was because Catholicism absorbed so many pagan matriarchal traditions.
liberal
@EconWatcher:
IIRC an article on abortion rights in one of the first issues of The American Prospect (God, it was really awesome at the beginning) talked about this, but also pointed out that during the period of time when a woman can get an abortion in those countries, it’s much easier for her to go about it.
Citizen Alan
@Scott:
Not necessarily inconsistent if you take the idea that the fetus and mother are two persons with competing interests. I believe the thinking is that a woman who consents to sex has consented to pregnancy since that is a foreseeable consequence of sex, whereas a woman who is raped did not consent and, in fact, may suffer a continual psychological trauma during the pregnancy that can be said to trump the fetus’s rights, at least early on in the pregnancy. It’s a weak argument but not completely indefensible. Mind you, I don’t think the fetus has any rights at all until it draws its first breath, so I don’t have to worry about making either argument.
Citizen Alan
@hitchhiker:
During the Amendment 26 controversy hear in Mississippi, I got into a FB argument with a Xtianist woman who claimed to have been the product of rape herself and who flat out said that a teenage girl who got pregnant through rape and had an illegal abortion should get the death penalty. I ended the conversation because I was on the verge of saying something utterly hateful to the woman but I didn’t want to cause problems for the friend whose FB page we were arguing on.
xian
boy the remaining republican candidates are like the four horsemen of repulsive party stereotypes: aloof countryclub plutocrat, Christian crotch-sniffer, hatemonger, and goldbug crank.
TenguPhule
I think we’ve hit the event horizon phase.
After this, the wingularity is nigh.
ned
@Scott:
What an incredibly simple-minded statement.
Shalimar
@Spaghetti Lee: To be roughly equivalent, it would have to be “If your daughter was raped and impregnated by a black man, would you thank her rapist for helping to bring new life into the world?”
Brutusettu
The only “gift” here is that Rick won’t ever be POTUS.
Pococurante
@Benjamin Franklin:
China. Fewer regulations.
They are also the first to cry for the media when the Chinese bait and switch them. Go figure.
Paul in KY
@Violet: He was 40 years older. Delivered her too, back in the day.
Paul in KY
Why in the Hell would you want a kid in the world where it has been demonstrated that the kid has fucked up genes (due to the biological father being a rapist sicko)?
Who wants to raise a kid that may off you in the night sometime?
someofparts
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/monty-python/every-sperm-is-sacred.html