You know the solution to this problem, don’t you?:
Although it is not apparent on his financial disclosure form, Mitt Romney has millions of dollars of his personal wealth in investment funds set up in the Cayman Islands, a notorious Caribbean tax haven.
A spokesperson for the Romney campaign says Romney follows all tax laws and he would pay the same in taxes regardless of where the funds are based.
As the race for the Republican nomination heats up, Mitt Romney is finding it increasingly difficult to maintain a shroud of secrecy around the details about his vast personal wealth, including, as ABC News has discovered, his investment in funds located offshore and his ability to pay a lower tax rate.
“His personal finances are a poster child of what’s wrong with the American tax system,” said Jack Blum, a Washington lawyer who is an authority on tax enforcement and offshore banking.
Give him a tax break, of course!
gaz
If we send Romney to the Caribbean does that mean we won’t have to pay taxes on him?
handy
Oblique Pulp Fiction reference Angry one?
BTW I love this part:
Sure he would, that’s why he stuffs said funds into offshore accounts after all.
Stooleo
Why is he so evasive? What the hell is he hiding?
Angry DougJ
@handy:
Yes, my favorite scene from just about any movie.
BGinCHI
I’m pretty sure this counts as Romney’s foreign policy experience in GOP-speak.
smintheus
@handy: I can’t help but wonder whether Romney took advantage of recent IRS amnesties for hidden offshore assets. That would make everything he’d done ‘legal’…and explain why he doesn’t want to release his returns from before this year.
feebog
So maybe he just likes going to the Caymans and visiting his money. I have visions of Scrooge McDuck writhing around in his vault.
dmsilev
Given Mitt Romney’s business record, maybe ‘Pirates of the Caribbean’ would have been a more apt title.
BGinCHI
The other question, Doug, is whether putting his money in the Caymans is performing an according to Hoyle miracle with it, in financial genius, big-brained terms.
Angry DougJ
@feebog:
There’s something really sexy about Scrooge McDuck.
dmsilev
@Stooleo:
That’s the question that needs asking over and over and over again.
Parking money in off-shore tax havens is probably a good start. Maybe there are some donations to politically-incovenient charities in his itemized deductions.
EconWatcher
I smell feeding frenzy.
There’s already enough material for some pipe-hittin’ attack ads to get medieval on Romney. But don’t you get the feeling there’s a lot more about to come out?
Brandon
@handy: I think you might have missed the nuance there. What the Romney spox was really saying was that if he didn’t have his assets off shored in a jurisdiction notorious for money laundering in order to avoid taxes, he’d just figure out some way of avoiding taxes on the money if he had to keep it in the US.
freelancer
@Angry DougJ:
I’m running for office for Pete’s sake, I can’t have them knowing I swim in Ameros!
Mnemosyne
BTW, just in case the same jackhole comes back to push the “Obama hires Bain guy for OMB!” story, I thought everyone should know that it is, of course, manufactured right-wing bullshit. Bain & Company and Bain Capital are two different companies.
smintheus
A similar report from Reuters:
Out of greed Mitt Romney hides his money in China.
Mitt the Ripper
As my dear friend Leona Helmsley used to say, “Taxes are for the little people”.
dmsilev
@EconWatcher: And the fascinating thing is that all of this is coming right at the moment when most observers thought he’d be clinching the nomination.
Mike Goetz
Off-topic, but I once worked a temp job at Bain Capital many years ago. I sat next to Mitt’s secretary (before I had any idea who Mitt was supposed to be). My job was to type up a book of Mormon theology that one of Mitt’s partners was writing for his children, who were “falling away” from the faith. I remember thinking 1) that the theology was deeply weird, 2) that it was weird that this guy would bring somebody into the Bain offices and pay him to type up a theological tract for his unbelieving children, and 3) that the entire top echelon of a slickster outfit like Bain Capital was basically a Mormon cabal. The whole thing was strange.
freelancer
Also, if Mitt were to apply the Cayman’s to his trusty foreign policy matrix, I’d bet he puts them in the “Has Freedom? Yes.” category.
General Stuck
The twoof will come out. I hear there’s a video out there of Romney giving Obama a shoe shine. Pass it on.
smintheus
@dmsilev: I think Mitt should be called “Mr. 15%”.
The Moar You Know
What the hell, I’ll post it here too:
Romney had Bain cut the Mormon Church in on millions of their sweet, sweet job-cutting profit.
Bad for Romney, but potentially a disaster for the Mormons. Making money off the misery of Americans isn’t going to play well to a populace that’s already suspicious as hell of them.
Michael
In other Romney news, here is John McCain’s 200 page opp-research on him from 2008. H/t to Tim Noah at TNR(the only person I read over there)
Delia
@Brandon:
This sounds likely. I seem to recall one time when Dubya gave a speech explaining to us plebs that there was really no point in trying to raise taxes on the rich because the rich would just find a way to get around them anyhow. I’m sure Willard operates on the same principle.
Villago Delenda Est
OvenMitt’s the posterboy for it, yup.
Your GOP challenger to the near sheriff.
Odie Hugh Manatee
This fall: Richie Rich, the Poor Little Rich Boy, versus President Obama.
FSM, please let it happen!
dmsilev
@The Moar You Know: Both your story and DougJ’s are from ABC News. Did Romney piss off Mickey Mouse or something?
Litlebritdifrnt
@dmsilev:
As I said the other day I think there are probably multiple problems in the returns (otherwise he would have released them before now) my guesses (as can be seen in previous threads) a) offshore accounts b) 15% rate (which he has confirmed) c) some really liberal charitable donations (Planned Parenthood anyone?) I don’t think anyone would be surprised that he tithed to the Church, that is to be expected. I think his other charitable donations are the ones that are going to kill him.
Brandon
What is interesting to me is that in the past, weathy guys running for office used to put their investments in blind trusts or just divest and buy Treasuries. Hell, it wasn’t even in the wayback past because I believe even Darth Cheney divested his Halliburton shares and Bush’s Commerce Secy John Snow divested his equity shareholdings too. To do so obviously means that one takes a financial hit, but that is the commitment that should be demonstrated for public service. Romney is interesting because he just doesn’t seem to care about any of it. He knew that he’d be running for 4 years and in that time it seems that he didn’t even bother to clean up his finances to make it more palettable for an election. I could come to many conclusions about this, but none are too favorable to Romney.
Violet
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I agree, he’s definitely hiding something. Otherwise, why not release the returns and get the pain over with?
Interesting that Tiffany’s Newt seems to be getting a bit of a bump in the SC polls. He’s got his own money problems.
Brachiator
@Stooleo:
I get the impression that Mitt stubbornly wants to hold onto the perks of his elitism. He seems to believe that even though he is running for public office, he is not accountable to the public, or to citizens for aspects of his private life.
This is a man who talks about how “it’s fine to talk about those things in quiet rooms,” but not as part of a vigorous public debate.
While much of the craziness that comes from Ron Paul or the Tea Party People seems to year for a mid 19th century America, Romney comes across like a Renaissance prince, with his dreams of a Divine Right of Mitt.
TheMightyTrowel
@dmsilev: Please! Have you looked at Obama’s ears? He is OBVIOUSLY the preferred candidate of the Mouse.
The Moar You Know
@dmsilev: Tied him to the roof of the minivan and took him for a 12-hour trip. The Mouse was pissed, he travels by corporate jet most of the time too and didn’t think Mitt would shiv a fellow 1%er in the back.
Hill Dweller
@Brandon: Romney does have a blind trust(run by his personal attorney). But a Dem group or Obama can just run the video of Romney calling Sen. Kennedy’s blind trust a sham.
dmsilev
@Brachiator:
I get more of a Versailles vibe from him. He’d have done quite well as Marie Antoinette.
Cris (without an H)
I was kind of worried about Romney ’12 (and still am, of course) but I’m starting to think that following the Year of the 99%, this is just the kind of fat cat we need to go up against.
dmsilev
All this might be having an effect. Various pollsters are reporting a couple of days worth of Newtmentum. Nate Silver has (slightly) downgraded Romney’s chances of winning SC, and if Newt comes out swinging in tomorrow’s debate, there’s a chance that the clown show will continue unabated.
JPL
@Mike Goetz: That was an interesting temp job.
Delia
From the original article:
NPR had a story on this today. It seems that during most of 2010 and the start of 2011 his speaking fees totaled more than $362,000.
A mere pittance.
Bubblegum Tate
@feebog:
“Y’all got my money in here?”
jayboat
@Cris (without an H):
Agree… and he seems to be reinforcing the stereotype every time he opens his pie hole. And then there’s the magic underpants thingy, which seems to be pushed to the side burner lately.
Roger Moore
@Brandon:
Longer than 4 years, since he ran in the last election and everyone who’s seen him for very long thinks he’s been planning on running for President for a lot longer than that. My gut feeling is that this is mostly a sign that he doesn’t really understand how the media works. He knows that he can buy press coverage for the points he wants to make, but doesn’t seem to understand that it doesn’t work the other way around; he can’t buy non-coverage of points he wants to prevent other people from making. The end result is that he’s constantly being surprised that he can’t completely avoid talking about uncomfortable topics.
lamh35
Breaking: who cares about the Huntsman daughters anymore?
Delia
@Roger Moore:
In every aspect of his past he’s been able to get what he wants by virtue of his money or his position. He’s been able to tell people what to do, and it’s been done, and done his way. Now he’s being blindsided by, um, Reality.
Bubblegum Tate
@Delia:
On the flip side, wingers argue that if we just keep cutting taxes until the rich (and corporations) don’t find them so obscenely, onerously high, then rich people and corporations will stop using all these loopholes and such and just pay up. Which makes perfect sense–if you’ve figured out how to make your effective taxation rate negligible, you’ll definitely volunteer to pay more.
scott (the other one)
@Roger Moore:
Well, to be fair to Romney, if he studied how assiduously the press avoided looking too deeply–which is to say, at all–into GWB’s business affairs, it’s reasonable for him to have concluded he’d get the same kind of cushy treatment.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@jayboat:
I wonder if Mitt hired midgets to act as his personal magic underwear gnomes.
It would be irresponsible not to speculate!
I look forward to a contest between the extremely wealthy Mormon Bishop and former Stake President, Willard Romney, and President Obama this fall.
It would be epic.
BGinCHI
I can’t wait till the debates between Romney and Obama, when the former repeats Newt’s line about Obama “putting more people on foodstamps than any Prez in US history” and Obama replies: why do you think poor working white people don’t need help buying food for their kids?
Maude
@scott (the other one):
Mitt ran this time at the wrong time. The banksters are not popular. The US may be going after a Swiss bank for illegal transactions. OWS which got 1% and 99% into the national lexicon.
Obama, early on, set the terms for offshore tax cheating to be given some breaks if they declared their booty, but still, it is illegal to hide money from the IRS. Fraud is no joke.
I wonder if Mitt committed fraud. He would have released the returns if nothing was in doubt.
What if the returns are false? Oh, Mitt has a problem.
lamh35
Looks like Newt’s Dog Whistling signal was heard loud and clear.
CNN’s King Reports A Gingrich Surge Post-Debate
From TPM’s transcript:
uh huh. romney et Co are getting worried I bet. I read somewhere that the Romney camp is might be considering not doing anymore debates…I guess that’s the Sarah Palin strategy.
Brandon
@Roger Moore: I believe that he has probably been well advised by political consultants to do something about it for a long time. But he hasn’t because he’s greedy and doesn’t want to take a financial hit, doesn’t think it matters because the rules don’t apply to him anyway, thinks guys like John Snow were chumps and probably deep down, also didn’t think he could or would win anyway, so what would be the point. Fact is, when given the opportunity to decide whether he wanted to remain in the 0.1% or take a risk of maybe dropping into the 0.5% to be President. He chose the money. In his mind, he probably thinks he already did his part by going into early retirement from Bain to pursue politics. And if that was his idea of financial sacrifice for public service, it is deeply disturbing.
Odie Hugh Manatee
I just saw “Dick” Halperin on with Tweety and he looks like he just came off a three day binge of coke, whiskey and hookers.
It must be tough to be a winger right now.
General Stuck
@lamh35:
Like I was saying yesterday, Newt Gingrich may be a despicable human being, but he knows where all the wingnut buttons are, specially south of Dixie.
burnspbesq
I’m perfectly OK with having a feeding frenzy over Romney’s wealth and his refusal to release his tax returns, but let’s be clear about a couple of things.
1. American citizens and resident aliens are taxable on their worldwide income. So if Romney has money parked in a bank or brokerage account in the Caymans, any interest or dividends earned on what’s sitting in that account are subject to tax when they are credited to the account.
2. Americans who have more than a relatively small amount in a bank or brokerage account have had annual disclosure obligations for a long time. Historically, and currently, the form was commonly referred to as an “FBAR.” it’s a standalone filing that goes to the Treasury Department, and prior to about 2009, the IRS didn’t do much with those forms. Now they do.
3. In addition, beginning with the current filing season, there is an additional foreign account disclosure form, Form 8938, that is an attachment to Form 1040. Willful failure to file FBARs or Forms 8938, or willfully filing false FBARs or Forms 8938, are felonies, and the IRS and DOJ are devoting more resources to enforcing these rules than ever before.
4. Even if Romney owns stock in a Cayman company, the best he can hope for is deferral of tax (by having the company not pay dividends). Unless he is prepared to risk jail time, outright evasion is not going to happen.
Now, fire for effect. Romney has exploited the Internal Revenue Code in ways Congress never intended, and he’s fair game for it.
Villago Delenda Est
@dmsilev:
Yeah, he definitely has an ancien régime sort of vibe to him.
Which is why I asked if he ever visited the Place de la Concorde when he was in Paris.
Like old home week for him, I’m sure.
lamh35
so I see the twitterverse is all a buzz becasue Drudge is saying that ABC has an interview with Newt’s ex-wife Marianne in the can but ABC is waiting to air it until maybe after the SC primary so that it won’t hurt Newt???
WTF. I guess the establishment is really trying to anoint Mittens ain’t they.
ETA: Now reports saying the interview is likely to run tomorrow. Just in time for the debate????
harlana
such a disgusting spectacle, these assholes tromping around my state, vomiting their vile racist bullshit all over the place like some shit-faced drunk throwing up his cheeseburger all over the floor. (my apologies to David Hasselhoff).
and, yes, i know we deserve it.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
I doubt anyone’s terribly surprised that there’s a substantial amount in Caribbean investments. I guess I should do some research for an islands post at the new blog.
Villago Delenda Est
@scott (the other one):
Yeah, but the deserting coward sucked up to the vermin of the Village.
Mitt just isn’t someone the Village gets a good vibe off of. You’d never want to have a beer with him.
Villago Delenda Est
@Delia:
Pocket change. He can’t imagine why people might be upset at that.
Not when he was bringing in more in a single night than most Americans earn in a year.
Dismissing it as “not much” is putting the “kick me” sign on himself.
WereBear
I swear, if the wingers stop getting the urge to somehow one-up their fathers, the whole party will crumble into dust.
Certified Mutant Enemy
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I don’t think anyone would be surprised that he tithed to the Church, that is to be expected.
Perhaps one of his problems is he’s been short changing the LDS…
Baud
I think the speculation over Romney’s finances are more fun than the reality. I hope he drags this out for a while.
Brandon
@Certified Mutant Enemy: that would certainly be an interesting wrinkle. The meme that his greed knows no bounds certainly does seem to be taking root. I wonder how fellow Mormons would feel about Mittens if they discovered that he wasn’t putting in his share.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@burnspbesq: A lot of people are implying that Romney committed tax fraud. I think that that’s pretty clear. While you are, of course, correct about the relevant laws, one reason that people have parked assets in the Caymans is precisely to avoid taxation on them. The trick, of course, is managing to get access to that money without alerting the IRS.
Personally, I’m dubious about the commission of outright tax fraud. I’m not saying Mitt didn’t do it, but I haven’t seen any evidence that he has. Nonetheless, I think that asking why he has money invested there is a perfectly valid question. The answer is usually that the entity in question, which in this case I’d guess is probably the fund rather than Mitt directly, is trying to avoid some form of regulation, whether it be tax or operational.
Sometimes evading the regulatory requirements is legal, sometimes it’s not and a lot of the time falls into a gray area where the lawyers could make a lot of money if it ever becomes an issue. Regardless, the evasion is usually embarrassing, particularly if one is running for president. So, I’d really like someone to hound him with the question of why Bain sets up funds in the Cayman Islands. Even if legal, I suspect that that’s something that Mitt really doesn’t want to get into.
Brachiator
@burnspbesq:
Yep. Very clear summary of the rules here.
And here’s what can happen if the Form 8938 is not filed or if people try to play games with the numbers:
Failure to report foreign financial assets on Form 8938 will result in a penalty of $10,000 (and a penalty up to $50,000 for continued failure after IRS notification).
Further, underpayments of tax attributable to non-disclosed foreign financial assets will be subject to an additional substantial understatement penalty of 40 percent.
Maude
@harlana:
It seems that the vile politcos pick on SC for their invectives. Big Dog did so didn’t he?
It’s a beautiful state and no, you don’t deserve this. Not everyone in NJ voted for Christie and we don’t deserve what he’s done to the state. If you are poor, you are in serious trouble. Christie cut the cash allowance for those who have to go on it because they are destitute.
I’ll stop now, this really gets me going.
Thanks for your statement about self loathing. I hope to stop it soon.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Baud: Bingo. When it’s all said and done, if it ever is (that would require releasing more than just the 2011 return), I suspect that that there won’t be anything illegal, and nothing about over or undertithing to the Mormon Church. It will just be that the way that the 1% conduct their finances is unseemly. As someone else speculated, it may even be that an extended look at the details of the returns would expose some of Bain’s strategies, not to any sort of taxing authority, but to its competitors.
PeakVT
Now this is the kind of garbage I’ve been hoping the other candidates would haul out and dump on Romney. And in response the guy is stepping on his own dick with his golf shoes on.
Villago Delenda Est
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
The problem is that they have these gigantic mountains of gold, they hoard them, and in the meantime people are starving in the streets.
They have more wealth than is needed to insure even a luxurious lifestyle, yet they want more. It does appear that they actively need to know others are suffering to enjoy their wealth.
It may be legal, but it’s not moral.
Cassidy
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Subtle
Brandon
@PeakVT: You must be the guy who keeping calling into CSPAN saying Romney has a big member.
gaz
I found a quarter of a million dollars and an african child in Romney’s couch.
burnspbesq
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
Even if all he’s getting out of being in Cayman is deferral, that’s not going to sit well with people who see at least a third of their gross pay siphoned off the top of every paycheck and have to wait until the following May to get a little bit of it back.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Villago Delenda Est: I never claimed that it was moral. I just think that the people expecting there to be some sort of smoking gun that would get Romney in trouble with any sort of authority, governmental or religious, are going to be disappointed and would be even if they saw everything.
Romney is likely to be revealed as immoral and out of touch, but not illegal, would be my guess.
Linda Featheringill
@Michael:
The Romney book.
I successfully downloaded the document in “text” format and saved it to a location in microsoft word. I checked the document out and it is quite readable, if you don’t mind the formatting being a little off.
graves007
The fact that Mormon Mitt believes in the
bullshitteaching of convicted fraudster and charlatan Joseph Smith is far more disturbing than his offshore tax haven.Then again, seeing as a sizable chunk of Americans believe Jeebus will make a sparkling return to earth in the near future tells me they probably don’t think much about Mormon Mitt’s
delusionbelief in the Cult of Silly Underwear.After all, why should followers of the Cult of Sunday Blood Drinking and Cannibalism care about Mitt’s cult? America is a free country and everyone is entitled to believe in whatever fairy tale they want. Although I suspect if Mitt were a follower of the Cult of Behead The Infidels, folks in the US of A might then go hmmmmm.
Anyway, why do people whine about what Mitt is doing with his finances? Gee I wonder how many of you, given the opportunity, would choose higher taxes over offshore tax haven? Stop yer bitching you hypocrites. He’s keeping as much of his money as he can which is exactly what everyone in the US also wants. He’s rich and can get away with it. The rest of you are poor and so have to suck on it. That’s life in America.
Brandon
@burnspbesq: It won’t sit well with the people who believe that it is further evidence that he doesn’t believe in America enough to invest his money here, but somehow wants to be President.
More likely than not, he’s waiting for another tax holiday to repatriate the money without penalty.
TheMightyTrowel
@Brachiator: For any expats like me who just had a panic over form 8938, you don’t need to fill it out unless you have accounts/investments worth over $US 50k in foreign banks.
Roger Moore
@burnspbesq:
And it will sit even less well with those of us who listen to the Republicans talk about how much we need to lower capital gains taxes. Tax deferral is a great plan if you don’t need the money right away and there’s a good chance that you’ll be able to realize your gains when there’s a temporary dip in the tax rate. Not something that’s readily available to those of us who depend on earned income to keep our heads above water.
PeakVT
@Brandon: Is someone really doing that?
MikeJ
@graves007: Life in America is what we make it. Mitt is going to help us make it more fair because nobody except toadies like you want the rich to get away with this shit.
Benjamin Franklin
@burnspbesq:
It’s amazing how you proceed from anal-gazing expectorant, to Offshore Tax expert with one stroke of the pen on a contingency contract. Are you a shape-shifter?
joes527
I really like Gingrich in the primary because he is tearing down Mitt, but I would hate to see him turn into anything other than a spoiler. Newt is a horrible human being, and has a closet full of skeletons, but he knows how to put the hay where the goats can see it. An Obama/Gingrich general election would be an ugly thing, and a huge step backwards for race relations, but Newt is ready willing and able to lay the red meat in front of the worst of the nation in order to win. He might excite the electorate in a way that Romney never will. (No Romney isn’t too principled, he just isn’t willing to get dirty like Newt is)
2012 is all about turnout. Nothing else matters. I’d prefer the candidate that inspires ennui on the R side of the general election.
burnspbesq
@graves007:
“The fact that Mormon Mitt believes in the bullshit teaching of convicted fraudster and charlatan Joseph Smith is far more disturbing than his offshore tax haven.”
To you, perhaps, but we both know that your view is not widely shared.
Calouste
@Certified Mutant Enemy:
Or maybe he hasn’t been short changing the LDS. In which case the $ 2-3 million donation to the LDS that will show up puts his Mormonism in an unpleasant spotlight. It’s been a bit under the radar recently, and I guess a lot of evangelicals make themselves think that Romney is not a serious Mormon, but a few million is serious money.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est:
Oh, I think that is what burnspbesq and JMN are saying. I think that this is going to another one of those situations where what is shocking is that whatever appalling things he has been doing are perfectly legal. Also dumb to be doing if one wants to run for national office.
Wannabe Speechwriter
Bobo thinks our elected leaders shouldn’t have be open and honest with us-
http://gawker.com/5877256/david-brooks-loves-secrecy-hates-journalism
JasonF
@Stooleo:
My theory is that Romney gets a significant portion of his income from the Iranian government and funnels that money to al Qaeda and Jerry Sandusky. Since Romney won’t release his financial info, nobody can prove me wrong.
Brandon
@PeakVT: Yup.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/c-span-mitt-romney-peni/
burnspbesq
@Benjamin Franklin:
Umm, Benno, you might do well to ask somebody what I do for a living. And if you knew anything about anything, you would know that under the applicable rules of professional conduct, I’m not permitted to do it on a contingency basis.
Omnes Omnibus
@JasonF:
You know, I read that very thing on the internet today – on some website.
Yutsano
@graves007: That’s a winning strategy dude. You should keep running with it. Here’s some scissors to help you.
Benjamin Franklin
@burnspbesq:
So, ambulance chasing has to be unreported income?
burnspbesq
@Benjamin Franklin:
“anal-gazing expectorant”
Wait a sec. Did he just call me a Mucinex enema?
Omnes Omnibus
@Yutsano: Yes, he does seem very personable.
For Wisconsin politics nerds, here is a webcam feed from the recall petition certification process. If the link doesn’t work, go to http://gab.wi.gov/ and click on the link there.
Benjamin Franklin
@burnspbesq:
C’mon this is speed-chess. Try to ketchup.
burnspbesq
If Mitt, or any other Master of the Universe doesn’t like paying capital gain tax, there’s a really simple solution.
Move to Hong Kong. Permanently. And never come back.
gaz
motherfvcking brilliant political cartoon (on multiple levels) over at Bob Cesca’s place
Benjamin Franklin
@burnspbesq:
That’s what I thought. Keep your opinions about my opinions to yourself,
asswipe,
Certified Mutant Enemy
@Brandon:
Tithing is a big deal with Mormons, if Romney is giving less than expected, he’s toast with the LDS.
burnspbesq
@JasonF:
“My theory is that Romney gets a significant portion of his income from the Iranian government and funnels that money to al Qaeda and Jerry Sandusky. Since Romney won’t release his financial info, nobody can prove me wrong.”
Wow. I never knew that Taibbi commented here under a pseudonym.
Roger Moore
@JasonF:
Are you sure that he isn’t making his money from a string of gay marriage chapels and abortion clinics? I’ve heard both of those are growth industries, and we all know what a job creator Mitt is. And I heard he was spending the money he got on stealth affirmative action projects.
burnspbesq
@Benjamin Franklin:
“That’s what I thought”
You think? There’s been precious little evidence of that.
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore: I read that one on the internet too.
Cassidy
@JasonF: There’s a live boy in there somewhere.
Brachiator
@TheMightyTrowel:
Depends on amount of assets, marital status, other factors. The $50K threshold does not apply to everyone. But you are right that most people with modest amounts don’t have to sweat it.
Certified Mutant Enemy
@Calouste:
I guess a lot of evangelicals make themselves think that Romney is not a serious Mormon, but a few million is serious money.
Then they’re not paying attention. Mitt was/is a bishop.
Benjamin Franklin
@burnspbesq:
For a lawyer, you don’t seem to have the gift of gab. How do we know you’re a USC lawyer? Is there anything you can provide that would augment your flagging credibility? Not that it would be a negatiive if you couldn’t prove. In fact, you can only go up in my estimation of your character.
Certified Mutant Enemy
@Roger Moore:
Let’s not forget Mitt must be funding the building of mosques and madrasas. in the USA.
Roger Moore
@Certified Mutant Enemy:
You’re right. I forgot that he was a major donor to the Ground Zero Mosque.
Omnes Omnibus
@Benjamin Franklin: He is a tax lawyer. They are special.
Benjamin Franklin
Remember:
This is speed-chess. What good are you to your clients if you can’t respond speedily to the Bench?
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Certified Mutant Enemy: You know, when there are this many rumors, it’s a sign that some of them have to be true. Personally, I think it’s the fact that Mitt was an agent for the KGB that’s going to get him in trouble. He wasn’t really in France; he was in Moscow.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus:
It seems that there have been an awful lot of those situations for a top tier candidate, doesn’t it?
Yutsano
@Omnes Omnibus:
I have my own terminology for them. :)
Brandon
@Certified Mutant Enemy: That may sound like a big deal, but it isn’t. Basically every financially successful Mormon is a Bishop. I had a good friend in high school who was a total screw up and ended up getting excommunicated from the church. His brother too, but for different reasons, and their father was a Bishop, despite the fact that two of his sons spent a good portion of their youth in and out of juvy and boarding schools. Out of the other 4 kids, three were mentally retarded in the very medical sense. But they kept having kids even though it was obvious that there was a significant genetic risk. In any event, despite the very non-perfect mormon home life, their father was a Bishop of their Ward and I believe the only reason why is because he was the CEO of a local hospital.
Delia
@Certified Mutant Enemy:
Ya know, for the average pleb, that’s certainly true. But I have a feeling that for a top-notch 1% patrician like Mitt, who’s handing over tons and tons of cash to the General Authorities every month, to say nothing of stocks, bonds, and good investment advice, they’re willing to overlook it if the accounting doesn’t quite add up to 10%.
smintheus
@JasonF: You do know that a few years ago a division of Bain signed a contract with Iran to improve its oil operations?
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): He isn’t particularly good at running for office, is he?
@Yutsano: Special can be a euphemism.
Certified Mutant Enemy
@smintheus:
It must be true, I read it on the internet.
gaz
Everybody keeps talking about how Mitt Romney RAPED AND MURDERED A WOMAN IN 1990
I’m not sure why everyone keeps saying Mitt Romney RAPED AND MURDERED A WOMAN IN 1990
But I know Mitt Romney, and I can say for certain that Mitt Romney did not RAPE AND MURDER A WOMAN IN 1990
/done in my best Gilbert Gottfried voice
Certified Mutant Enemy
@Brandon:
But your typical evangelical/fundie probably isn’t aware of LDS hierarchy. It also telling the financial success plays a role in one’s play within the Mormon church…
Brachiator
@Benjamin Franklin:
Wow. You are really stepping in it. A lot of folks here want to raise the pitchforks, but don’t know the tax law or what’s in Mitt’s returns. Makes your ire mis-directed, even if understandable.
You can argue with his conclusions, but I have never seen burns get the tax law facts wrong. Nor have I seen him skew his analysis to favor any particular side.
But what the hey, I look forward to seeing you demonstrate why he is wrong, as opposed to why you are unhappy with him.
djinn
It could be that the real problem is that Mitten’s tax rate is close to ZERO. He’s admitted that he starts with a 15% rate. He quite possibly donates 10% of his income to the Mormon church. Now, do to one of those quirks in the tax code that favor the wealthy, he gets to double count that charitable deduction, if he pays with stock that has gone significantly up or down I. value since he’s purchased it. Do the math–5%, perhaps, less than us poor working stiffs Social Security contribution,.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Yutsano: I’ll bet you do!
Calouste
@Certified Mutant Enemy:
A lot of people aren’t paying attention. A multi-million dollar donation will get some people’s attention though.
Benjamin Franklin
@Brachiator:
Your cautionary tale is duly noted. I don’t care what burnie’s bona fides are, he is arrogant to a lawyerly degree. I have asked him not to discharge his effluent when responding to my comments, and he can’t, apparently, manage his compulsions. I think he sees himself as the Guardian of Truth, but he’s just another argumentarian trollop, as far as I’m concerned.
Certified Mutant Enemy
@smintheus:
Maybe Mitt is a polygamist like his grandfather…
Brachiator
@djinn:
This is why Mitt should release his tax returns, and soon. The tax code that exists in the public imagination can magnify the power of whatever Mitt actually has done or could to with his pile of money.
PeakVT
@Brandon: Funny. And since C-span had Judd Gregg on, they totally deserved to be pranked.
smintheus
@Certified Mutant Enemy: Seriously, the Iranian contract is documented in McCain’s oppo research book on Romney. Check it out.
eemom
@Benjamin Franklin:
You, on the other hand, have no bona fides at all. Nothing but opinionated ignorance, which is the worst kind of both.
More or less a pure “argumentarian trollop,” if I may borrow a phrase.
Omnes Omnibus
@Benjamin Franklin: It looks to me like you grabbed a substantive comment by burnspbesq and used it as a launching pad for random abuse. Even if you do object to his tone, tax law is probably not the area on which to challenge him. I would avoid lacrosse trivia as well, just sayin’.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: Run for office is pretty much all he’s done since Bain, and he sucks at it. Why wouldn’t he try something he’s better at?
I assumed you were using a euphemism earlier.
Yutsano
@Omnes Omnibus:
Kid’s gotta learn some time. Might as well get the pain out of the way sooner rather than later.
Benjamin Franklin
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’ll try some perspective on battle choices, but Adhoms are my specialty, even
lawyerly specialty
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Yutsano: You have a point, but need we all share in the pain? Can’t some of you answer the question I asked earlier today? I’ll give you all my spare punctuation if you do.
Schlemizel
The Sludge report is saying that Salamander’s second wife (Marrianna) has given an interview to ABC news & ABC is debating if they should run it before the vote on Saturday. She has always claimed she has the information that will end his run.
SIGH – I was hoping she would wait a month or so at least. I’m gonna hate to see the overstuffed pasty go, nobody left has what it takes to do as much damage to Willard as the reptile does.
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Fucking moderation. Ahem.
ETA: Thank you.
jpe
You can’t have both capital gain rates and deferral, which is why he’s not even getting deferral. He has an interest in a Cayman Islands fund solely because his clients – US charities and pensions and foreign investors – don’t want to invest in US partnerships for tax reasons (in the case of US non-profs) or for privacy reasons (in the case of foreign persons).
So Mitt’s not dodging any taxes from this.
He did it because his US charity clients want to reduce their taxes. Structuring a private equity in this manner for that reason is an industry norm. It doesn’t avoid tax for the principals; it’s designed to attract more capital from charities, pension funds, and foreigners.
Villago Delenda Est
@Certified Mutant Enemy:
Well, that shouldn’t bother the Mammon worshiping followers of the prosperity Gospel, now should it?
Delia
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
He seems to be proceeding on the assumption that he can get anything he wants by throwing enough money at it. He certainly acts like he’s entitled to get it.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: Freed. Did I mention that this is a new venture? It needs a bit or ironing in places, clearly.
,,,, ;::; ,,,, !!
Yutsano
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): 37 bets. According to Willard anyway.
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): And I was, um, your first?
Congrats, I will keep an eye on it.
Villago Delenda Est
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
Oh, I agree with you on that. Expecting to find some tax law violation bombshell is stretching things.
The fact that the shit he’s doing is legal, though, should definitely be an issue. As is most of the shenanigans from the past 10 years that was made legal, in true Darth Sidious fashion, by a financial “modernization” act in 1999.
General Stuck
cool
Lawyer Fight!!
Fuch wit me, and
i will destroy you, linguistically
Omnes Omnibus
@General Stuck: It isn’t a fight; it is a discussion.
gex
@Calouste: One site noted a large contribution to the LDS just before Prop 8.
General Stuck
@Omnes Omnibus:
Of course it is.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@General Stuck: Am I supposed to be fighting? Damn, I missed the memo. Are there teams? Do they pick us or do we pick them?
General Stuck
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Sharp words, at 40 paces
Benjamin Franklin
@Omnes Omnibus:
Call it what you want. Burnie retreats with the smackdown, and that’s ok.
Omnes Omnibus
@Benjamin Franklin: Uh huh.
Brandon
@Certified Mutant Enemy: In my admittedly ignorant understanding, financial success is an important criteria for identifying those fit for church hierarchy. Followed by having the model mormon family. I don’t know about you, but every Mormon family in my area all had six kids, the same Ford passenger van, a trampoline and a ping pong table. After that, the rich ones had swimming pools and boats. There is a reason for that level of conformity, but there is also an underlying requirement to meet that level of conformity, coin. And in my admittedly ignorant assessment, a Mormon man that cannot meet the financial requirements to ensure his family meets the model of conformity would probably have a hard time getting promoted within the church because perhaps it would be seen as a moral failing on his part. And because of the external skepticism about the church, I imagine that it is in the LDS’s best interest to promote those who most represent the church model to better market the church externally. Promoting financially successful Mormons within the hierarchy is also probably a result of financial self interest of the church to ensure that those with means maintain a close connection with the social structure of the church to ensure that they continue to tithe and donate significant sums. But this is all speculation on my part.
Omnes Omnibus
@Brandon: Sounds like Scientology to me.
Brandon
@General Stuck: Meh. I am a lawyer too, but know eff all about tax and just about every area of law outside of my specialization, so I try not to weigh in to much on legal issues because I know I will say something stupid. Burnsie however is like the Greatest Interwebz Lawya Evah! He’s an expert on everything. He reminds me of the folks who hang around the DIY forums I check out to get insight into how to repair my old house who claim to be PE’s in structural and electrical engineering, as well as qualified master craftsmen in every possible area of home repair. I do read what they have to say, but always take it with a grain of salt without corroboration from a second independent source. Which brings me back to good old Burnsie.
Jewish Steel
Called it. I fucking called this one. takes bow
catclub
Saw this on yahoo – perhaps politico? Someone has a tremendous need to put Romney’s taxes in context:
“Mitt Romney’s not the only 15 percenter: John Kerry paid 13 percent in taxes in 2003”
Omnes Omnibus
@catclub: Kerry also ran on a set of policies that would not have been to his immediate and direct financial advantage.
burnspbesq
@Yutsano:
“The Reason I’m Gainfully Employed?”
Omnes Omnibus
@burnspbesq: He isn’t “gainfully employed;” he works for the government.
burnspbesq
@Benjamin Franklin:
If going out to buy dog food is a retreat, then I suppose I retreated. But the next time you smack anyone down will be the first.
Why oh why can’t we have better trolls? You almost make me nostalgic for the days before Greenwald went to Slate, when Bart DiPalma was going all Rumplestiltskin on him on a daily basis.
Benjamin Franklin
You buy a lot of dog food.
Kyle
So did Halliburton under Cheney, and the Repuke hypocrites didn’t care.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@jpe:
Given that the lower rates for capital gains applies only to things held for more than one year, it’s more accurate to say that you can’t have those rates *without* deferral. It’s a package.
Xenos
@TheMightyTrowel:
Keep in mind that even if you qualify for the $50,000 limit , hitting it for one day will trigger the reporting requirement for a detailed reporting for all financial accounts, which can be be exhaustively detailed. Combining this with FATCA means that a lot of 1%ers have reason to be worried.
elisathon
ABC Nightline just teased the next segment – Why does Mitt Romney have millions offshore?
And here it goes, Brian Ross…
Delia
@Brandon:
Well, I grew up in a Mormon family in Utah, and I don’t think it’s anything like Scientology. I had an uncle in southern Idaho who was a small farmer who served as a bishop for a while. The town I grew up in had a few people who were well-to-do, most middle class, and some barely scraping by. Almost all were Mormon and there wouldn’t have been enough people to fill leadership positions if they only relied on the wealthy. The thing about the functioning of the LDS church: a person doesn’t volunteer to be a Sunday school teacher or music director or whatever, like in most churches. They’re “called” to the position by someone higher in authority and it’s only for a certain length of time. If the person is does well they sort of progress up the ranks, so someone who’s a goof-off wouldn’t end up in a high ranking position, but someone who worked hard and did well would. In a wealthy community the bishop would probably be a wealthy man, but in a working class town, it would be a working class man.
BTW, neither I nor most of my sisters have been back to a Mormon church for about 25 years except for our father’s funeral. I know a lot of Mormon people I respect and like, but I have no use for the LDS hierarchy in Salt Lake. Nor for the theology.
Applejinx
@djinn:
It’s got to be this! Once you mention this double-counting it becomes obvious. Is he able to totally wipe out his tax obligation by OVER-tithing? What if, rather than the suppressed years of tax returns concealing huge income at 15% or less, they are concealing that he got REFUNDS so essentially we have all been paying Mitt Romney to give money to the Mormons?
Is that intense of a bombshell even possible, or is it not possible for a guy like Mitt to have been getting refunds? I think some of our mega-corporations have been filing negative taxes. It would make SO much sense if Romney had been taking refunds as compensation for absolutely mammoth charitable donations to the Mormons. How intensely do they protect him?
Is his ‘calling’, bringing in countless millions to the church treasury?
jpe
The threshold is actually $10K for filing an FBAR. If you’ve ever had an account that exceeded that amount at any time (for even a minute!) and didn’t file an FBAR, you should probably talk to an attorney. This requirement has been around for years and years and years.
Nope. He can only wipe out half of his total income.
What I meant is that he can’t defer tax beyond what he could’ve had his offshore investments been onshore investments. ie, he didn’t get any tax advantage from owning investments through an offshore as opposed to an onshore.