How This Particular Game Is Played

As much as I would love to believe this is yet another instance where the President has outsmarted the GOP (and in a fair would it would be) his proposal for legislation allowing him fast track authority to consolidate federal trade and commerce agencies is precisely the sort of thing that has zero chance getting through our awesome 9% approval rating Congress, and it’s easy to see why.   Politico sees this as a smart move, on the other hand my inner cynic says this is good tactics, bad strategy.

Obama’s plan would merge the Commerce Department, the Small Business Administration, the Office of the U.S. Trade representative and other independent business agencies into a new, unnamed Cabinet agency.

The president would need congressional approval to consolidate the agencies, and he virtually dared Republicans to vote against it, putting the GOP on the defensive for the second time in a month. The payroll tax cut fight forced Republicans lawmakers to choose whether to support the president or a tax increase. This would force them to support the president or the status quo — a tangled web of regulatory agencies that Republicans have held up as a barrier to job creation.

“This is an area that should receive bipartisan support because making our government more responsive and strategic and leaner shouldn’t be a partisan issue,” Obama said as he announced the initiative at the White House. “We can do this better. We can provide taxpayers better value.”

Not only will Republicans vote against it, I foresee they’ll propose legislation eliminating those agencies instead and daring the President and Democrats to vote against that instead.  Meanwhile, we’ll be treated to the theory that the President should probably be impeached for daring to ask Congress for anything and that because he’s not serious about dismantling the entire Executive Branch and handing everything over to Orange Julius that he’s really a tin-pot Chicago Way dictator who is nothing like the Republicans.

Meanwhile, at the same time we’ll hear that this proposal means President Obama has abandoned unions, working-class Americans, and the idea of any government oversight over trade and commerce, making him a job-killing Wall Street puppet who never really liked American workers anyway, and that he’s precisely the same as the Republicans.

It’s about this point, when the Village is pushing both these theories on the news as “President loses union base” and “Why can’t Obama reach an agreement with Republicans?” that everyone else will turn off their brains to avoid the headache and this idea will get quietly shelved.  There’s just nothing to be gained by trying to make a common sense proposal to even look at doing something like this during something as clinically insane as an election year.

 






213 replies
  1. 1
    Brachiator says:

    Not only will Republicans vote against it, I foresee they’ll propose legislation eliminating those agencies instead and daring the President and Democrats to vote against that instead.

    Very unlikely that the Republicans would try to abolish the Small Business Administration or the office of the Trade Representative.

    And Obama specifically did not mention Labor. He is daring the Republicans to antagonize the unions more than they already have.

    And you will never hear “Obama has abandoned unions” from any Republican in this or in seven alternate universes. Hell, not even Newt is this crazy.

  2. 2
    dr. bloor says:

    Your inner cynic needs to get out more. It’s tactically a good move, and yesterday Republican opponents had nothing better to offer than “we don’t believe he’ll really do it.”

    Obama has to do his job. Anything he does is going to get twisted, trumped and every other thing you mentioned in your post. Nice to see him doing something with a political upside for a change.

  3. 3
    David Koch says:

    Tebow Bitches!

  4. 4
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    The overall argument – leaner, more efficient government is better than wrecking the government – is a good one, and Obama seemed to be interested in making it back in 2008. I don’t think this is the best way or time to deploy the argument though.

  5. 5
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @David Koch:

    Brady Whines!

  6. 6
    xian says:

    it’s another pincer movement like the payroll tax cut.

    a while back someone, Stuck, I think, noted that Republicans are so rigid they are predictable, have painted themselves into some corners, and Obama’s team has figured out some ways to exploit that.

  7. 7
    Kola Noscopy says:

    There’s just nothing to be gained by trying to make a common sense proposal to even look at doing something like this during something as clinically insane as an election year.

    This is when millions of us go “how can anyone get excited about the idea that any of the established players in this ridiculously fucked up system of government, Dems and O included, are legitimate agents of change for the better?”

    The American political system is corrupt and diseased, yet we should help prop it up?

  8. 8
    Brachiator says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    This is when millions of us go “how can anyone get excited about the idea that any of the established players in this ridiculously fucked up system of government, Dems and O included, are legitimate agents of change for the better?”

    Millions of you? And what alternate fantasy system are you proposing? Thanks for the laugh.

  9. 9
    Danny says:

    It’s good policy and good politics. Progressives believe government is needed and delivers valuable services. It’s in our interest that government deliver those services efficiently.

    Conservatives like to point to existing inefficiencies and use them to con the public into believing that government is bad and must be eliminated. Making conservatives vote against making government more efficient illustrates that divide to the voters. It’s a wedge strategy to peel off the voters who may wish that government was more efficient but who don’t necessarily think drowning it in a bathtub is a great idea.

  10. 10
    Tim F. says:

    Politico sees this as a smart move

    Your inner cynic should feel pretty good about himself then.

  11. 11
    c u n d gulag says:

    Ziss vill be painted az a naked power grab by Herr Obama, that KenyanFascistSocialistCommunistHeathenMuslim Usurper.

    Und zee RepubliKlans vill cite zee Vill ov “Das Fatherland-Heartland Volks” zhat zhey gott in 2010!

  12. 12
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @Brachiator:

    Millions of you? And what alternate fantasy system are you proposing? Thanks for the laugh.

    Figures you’d be one of the first to deny the reality of “millions” of disaffected, disillusioned voters who see the entire system as rigged, all the players as corrupt, and themselves as meaningless dupes when they participate.

    How’d that Dem voter turnout go for you in 2010, Brach?

    But for some reason, you’re one of the ones for whom the present system “works…” Could you explain that without personalizing or insulting, as you and yours tend to immediately do here regarding anyone who questions the status quo and dem culpability in it? As evidenced by your mocking “thanks for the laugh” in your first reply.

  13. 13
    cbear says:

    @Brachiator: Um, not to get in the way of the usual flame wars, but Kola is actually correct—witness the 50% disapproval of the president, the 90% disapproval of Congress, the right track/wrong track poll numbers, etc. etc.

    If anything, he’s lowballing the number of people who despair of any meaningful change occuring in our country or our politics.

  14. 14
    KG says:

    Obama first dared republicans to take a position of raising taxes. Now he’s forcing them to take the position of support big government. This is smart politics at its best. He’s basically forcing them to run against what they always say they believe in

  15. 15
    Jay C says:

    I think you’re a little off-base on this one, Zandar: government reorganizations like the one President Obama is proposing – even on the Cabinet level – aren’t really new or out-of-the-ordinary: and, as Mr. Obama himself pointed out, in a “normal” political environment would be introduced in Congress at the Administration’s behest, and voted on.

    However, as you note, this is far from a “normal” environment (and an election year besides) – and yes, I agree that the chances of this reorganization, or indeed, anything that might make Obama or his Admin look good, are near-nil.

    Unfortunately, Obama has left a loophole in his approach: by making the issue one of Presidential authority (rather than the bureaucratic “streamlining” Republicans would normally go along with), he’s left cover for GOP oppositionism, on “power-grab” grounds. Specious, like most GOP objections, but there you go…

    BUT:

    Meanwhile, at the same time we’ll hear that this proposal means President Obama has abandoned unions, working-class Americans, and the idea of any government oversight over trade and commerce, making him a job-killing Wall Street puppet who never really liked American workers anyway, and that he’s precisely the same as the Republicans.

    Hear from WHO? The firebagger/PUMA crowd? Obscure Left-wing bloggers? Some diarist at Daily Kos? Please: the idiot Villagers might tie themselves into knots excusing away GOP malfeasance on any and all levels; but even the most Obama-deranged Beltway types wouldn’t use leftist tropes! Ever.

  16. 16
    phil says:

    @ Zandar
    I guess I understand your pessimism, but don’t you think this is a bit of an overreaction? Can’t you just let us feel good about the Republican Primary Fratricide for 5 effing minutes?

  17. 17
    Jay C says:

    Sorry, the graf after “BUT” in no. 14 is a quote from Zandar’s post which I can’t seem to blockquote properly.

    F.
    Y.
    WP.

  18. 18
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @KG:

    Obama first dared republicans to take a position of raising taxes. Now he’s forcing them to take the position of support big government. This is smart politics at its best.

    And meanwhile, nothing constructive happens. That’s a system you buy into? That’s change you believe in?

  19. 19
    pragmatism says:

    Hey Zandar, in your parenthetical “would” appears 2x. First one should be world?

  20. 20

    Naaah. Yes, the general things you’re describing are very likely to happen. They will happen anyway. No matter what he proposes, or if he sits on his thumbs and twiddles, he will be surrounded by whining. He might as well make lesser policy submissions, stuff that he can do later if it fails now. As you pointed out, if they fail it’s another slap at the do-nothing congress. All gain, no loss – at least, no loss that wasn’t going to happen anyway.

  21. 21
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Why don’t you explain to us what you mean by change you can believe in and how it gets enacted by the House and Senate?

  22. 22
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy: Regarding your statement. Were you for or against the destruction of ACORN?

    I think your position on that is relevant to the discussion you two are having is all.

  23. 23
    gaz says:

    @Jay C:

    Hear from WHO?

    Wouldn’t it be funny to hear about it from Ron Paul supporter, Glenn Greenwald?

    heh.

  24. 24
    Brachiator says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    But for some reason, you’re one of the ones for whom the present system “works…” Could you explain that without personalizing or insulting, as you and yours tend to immediately do here regarding anyone who questions the status quo and dem culpability in it? As evidenced by your mocking “thanks for the laugh” in your first reply.

    Yawn. Stop wasting my time. What alternate system do you propose, and how many millions are backing you up to bring it?

    I got no problem with “questioning the status quo” and anyone who has ever read any of my comments can find me bashing the Democrats and Obama when warranted.

    @cbear:

    If anything, he’s lowballing the number of people who despair of any meaningful change occuring in our country or our politics.

    The question is always, what do people want, and what are they willing to do to achieve it?

    And remember that the Tea Party People also despaired of meaningful change. But I oppose them in everything forever.

    It just ain’t enough to moan about how dissatisfied you are. What else you got?

  25. 25
    hildebrand says:

    Zandar – did you by chance ever work for TNR – because, my God man, that is one TNR level defensive crouch.

    You are over-thinking this – Obama has just dangled the low-hanging fruit of reducing government (‘A Democrat Reduces Government!’), the MSM will swarm on this as evidence of Obama trying to ‘reach out to the other side’, and then the Republicans will slap his hand away (again), the MSM will then be left with actually having to defend the President for attempting to be all bi-partisany but the dastardly Republicans will have thwarted him. Mushy headed independents will think this Obama guy is not half bad. This is win-win stuff. (Especially because the true result of this may mean a more efficient trade bureaucracy.)

  26. 26
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:

    Why don’t you explain to us what you mean by change you can believe in and how it gets enacted by the House and Senate?

    Change I can believe in, in a nutshell, its elements gleaned from many commenters here who have said it better than I: A democratic president aggressively pushing, prodding, and fighting passionately, by all legal means, event those on the margins, for a PROGRESSIVE agenda including universal health insurance, no aggressive wars, reduction of the security state, line in the sand defense of medicaid, medicare, social security, welfare, and all other valuable social safety net programs, opposition to the hegemony of the MIC, just to name a few items.

    But then, I believe that you and yours have a VERY good general idea of what those of us to Obama’s left, that being the former Nixon Republican Right, want from Obama; your goal is to obfuscate and deflect.

    And no, it is not my job to do Obama’s job. I have a job. He ran for his, won an election, and swore an oath to DO his. He’s not doing it, so it would be nice to vote for a progressive who will.

    Commence Obot insults, half truths, and spin.

  27. 27
    Knockabout says:

    Shorter Zander: “The people who disagree with Dear Leader sure are stoopid!”

  28. 28
    gaz says:

    @Brachiator:

    But I oppose them in everything forever.

    While I agree, just to be a nit-picker, I found common ground with them on one (actual) issue. The F-22 fighter plane thing. They wanted to pull funding for it as well. It doesn’t really make up for the 99.99999% of utter bullshit (some racist, all crazy) spewing from that camp. So yeah, your larger point stands and I agree.

    I just gotta give credit where credit is due. Even if it’s blind squirrel/nut kinda credit

  29. 29
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    Were you for or against the destruction of ACORN?

    Hmmm…trick question? (of course, it must be…)

    But I’ll play: I am totally AGAINST the destruction of ACORN. The fact that it was destroyed is another sign of complete democratic capitulation. If you’re going to say that’s congress and Obama is up against spineless dems there, blah blah blah; it’s his job to fight passionately against those kinds of things even if he loses. I don’t recall a kick ass, controversial, barn burning speech from Obama in defense of Acorn. If I missed that, could you provide a link? I’d love to watch it.

  30. 30
    Zandar says:

    @hildebrand:

    In a fair world, you’d be right. The President did do the right thing is the funny part, and for the reasons you gave.

    The reality will be much different, unfortunately.

  31. 31
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    How do you get these things through the House and Senate? What specific measures are you demanding?

    Are you able to produce a clear, honest response to these questions?

  32. 32
    cbear says:

    @Brachiator: I ain’t moaning bout shit, Brac, at least not right now. I was just making a general point about the accuracy of Kola’s statement, which is factually true, regardless of the politics behind it.
    That OK with you?

  33. 33
    cbear says:

    @hildebrand:

    that is one TNR level defensive crouch.

    THAT is funny.

  34. 34
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @Brachiator:

    You know, I think this is bullshit, basically. This is ostensibly a democracy, and yes, it IS enough, given my position as a peon in this giant economy and political system, to say to those in my own arena “this is how I feel about what I see happening, and this is how I will use the power of the ballot which is my only tool in this rigged game.

    In a given situation sometimes a tool’s best use is to be holstered.

    I guess you disagree because I MUST always participate in the corrupt system to help prop it up, and I don’t have millions of dollars so I am powerless.

    You are boring.

  35. 35
    Danny says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    opposition to the hegemony of the MIC

    Trimming the Pentagon budget by 500 billion – and maybe a trillion – isn’t enough of a move in the right direction for you?

  36. 36
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy: You haven’t read any of my posts, if you automatically think I even believe that Obama had anything to do with the issue.

    My larger (maybe too subtle) point in posing that question was to raise the issue of voter enfranchisement and raising voter turnout as a means to get *any* administration+congress to do what the people actually want it to do. (And no it wasn’t a trick question, but I confess your emphatic answer is actually pretty close to mine – was with you until you started bringing Obama into it)

    The destruction of ACORN, IMO is the fault of the media, IMO. They had a guy with a history of outright lying pushing the thing (Brietbart) – they had an BLATANTLY edited tape – they had a questionable set of actors – and they did zero to even provide some fact checking. Or even allude to the fact that some fact-checking may be in order. They just ran with it.

    I don’t see how you can even wedge Obama into a discussion of ACORN, frankly. Even after reading your post. a bit of ODS coming from you, it seems.

  37. 37
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:

    How do you get these things through the House and Senate? What specific measures are you demanding?

    See here’s where you try to make the strategy and tactics MY job. That’s Obama’s job. He wanted it, he’s got it. He’s not doing it. He should go.

  38. 38
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @Danny:

    Hell no, not nearly enough. And that cut is over what, ten years? Please.

  39. 39
    hildebrand says:

    @Zandar: I don’t fully disagree with your thought – that what actually will happen may be different – but that doesn’t mean that Obama shouldn’t give it a go. I think that is the point that I would like to make. We often complain about Obama’s over-willingness to slow walk things – on this occasion, when he is willing to give a different tactic a bit of a go, let’s give it a go.

    We spend a good deal of time dealing with negative ‘What-if’ scenarios whenever Obama does something – perhaps he would be a bit more willing to take risks if we actually supported said risks. Because I really don’t think Democrats do a good job of supporting the President on the rare occasion when he does stick his neck out – see: Gitmo.

  40. 40
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    You keep telling us how easy this stuff is. Put up or shut up.

  41. 41
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    Even after reading your post. a bit of ODS coming from you, it seems.

    Ridiculous. You don’t think Obama weighing in would have been covered by the media? You don’t think politicians have to DO things to attract media attention and coverage, and thus get their message out? You’re looking to MSM to promote progressive values on its own? What? Of course the MSM is corrupt and lazy; that’s one of the many reasons I want a fighter in the white house.

  42. 42
    Librarian says:

    No, no, no. This is dumb, dumb, dumb. Obama is playing on the GOP’s turf, reinforcing the GOP meme that government is evil, etc. This is an obvious pander to the center. It’s just like when he froze government hiring, it’s a symbolic move that will not save the government one penny even if it happens, which it won’t. It will throw thousands of people out of work when the exact opposite should be happening. It’s typical Obama style over substance.

  43. 43
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    You don’t think Obama weighing in would have been covered by the media?

    Weighing in on a lie is already too late – propaganda 101 – if anything it serves to legitimize the lie in public discourse. MSM should have fact checked.

    Maybe though – Obama should have anyway – but if you think Obama would have changed the game after it was already lost, you DO have ODS.

  44. 44
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:

    You keep telling us how easy this stuff is. Put up or shut up.

    See, here’ where the lying begins. Link to where I said any of this was “easy” please. Link to where the constitution says the president’s job is assured to be “easy.”

    Please give me a candidate who doesn’t mind WORKING HARD.

    I am putting up. I share my views with anyone in my personal sphere, I’ve worked for campaigns before, and I have a vote that’s up for a worthy candidate.

    You want me to quit my job and move to the white house or something stupid…as I expected from you, obfuscation, spin, insults, as in “shut up,” quoted from your comment.

  45. 45
    Danny says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Hell no, not nearly enough.

    Reiterating that the question was if it was enough of a move in the right direction. How much do you expect any President or congress to shrink the Pentagon budget for you to be slightly encouraged?

    And that cut is over what, ten years? Please.

    So domestic discretionary spending being cut by that exact same amount was also chickenshit and hardly worthy of mention, right? (For future reference)

  46. 46
    hildebrand says:

    @Librarian: No, it is an argument that even big government must be, and can be, efficient. Eliminating redundancy actually strengthens the impression of a working government because stuff gets done without a lot of unnecessary fat. A bloated bureaucracy that exists only because it is big does no favors to convince people that government is a necessary component of their lives.

  47. 47
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    I am putting up.

    Still waiting for your explanation of what specific legislation you want passed, and how you get it through the House and the Senate.

    Here’s a hint: drive-by self-soiling ain’t strategy.

    Now, are you going to put up, or do you plan to keep whining about how no-one admires your heroic bloviations?

  48. 48
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy: The problem isn’t that you are wrong in terms of wanting a stronger progressive voice in the whitehouse. The problem is that you sound like a republican. Even though you are basically a firebagger. You are engaging in standard Nixonian ratfvcking at every opportunity. In short, you sound batshit. You may wanna turn the disaffected “true” liberal firebagging a notch or two down from 11.

  49. 49
    geg6 says:

    Despite the derailing of the thread by our resident reality-challenged, utopian troll, I think is a brilliant move by Obama, both on policy terms and on tactical terms. Streamlining these functions makes government more efficient (a goal any liberal should applaud). And showing the GOP to be the crazed, hypocritical fucks that they are for the second time in as many months is simply good politics. There is no downside to this that I can see, unless you’ve become such a paranoid lib that you can’t see the forest for the trees. Which, after the last 30 years or so, is not a completely unreasonable thing. But looking at it without the emotional baggage of the abuse our side has taken over that time, this is smart and I like it.

  50. 50
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Danny:

    I am getting the impression that Kola ain’t really hot on logical argument. He seems to default to insult-trolling the thread really quickly.

  51. 51
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    Weighing in on a lie is already too late – propaganda 101 – if anything it serves to legitimize the lie in public discourse. MSM should have fact checked.Maybe though – Obama should have anyway – but if you think Obama would have changed the game after it was already lost, you DO have ODS.

    See how Obotism works: If someone says or proposes anything Obama ostensibly is against, IT IS ALREADY TOO LATE FOR HIM TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, THE CAUSE IS LOST, so why try? Secondly, even if he HAD said or done something in Acorn’s defense, IT WOULD NOT HAVE MADE ANY DIFFERENCE.

    To sum: If the right says or does anything, it is automatically too late to oppose it, so Obama should not bother. And if for some reason he does bother, it won’t matter. So Obama is innefectual at altering the discussion and ineffectual at altering the outcome. Good to know. Why do you support this person?

    “ODS” as an all purpose deflection was over two years ago.

  52. 52
    Quaker in a Basement says:

    I’m eager to see how conservatives will manage to paint this rather mundane proposal as The Greatest Outrage Since The Failed New Deal!

    You know they will.

  53. 53
    Hill Dweller says:

    @Librarian:

    It will throw thousands of people out of work when the exact opposite should be happening.

    Where did you get this number?

  54. 54
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:

    Still waiting for your explanation of what specific legislation you want passed, and how you get it through the House and the Senate.

    Not my job. Obama’s job. I have a full time job already, thanks.

    Here’s a hint: drive-by self-soiling ain’t strategy.

    Predicted insult and deflection.

    Now, are you going to put up, or do you plan to keep whining about how no-one admires your heroic bloviations?

    Again, strategy/tactics are Obama’s job. He’s not good at them. Of course, you conclude with insult and obfuscation. Standard Obot BJ tactics.

  55. 55
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Librarian: This is exactly the kind of stuff that Democrats do. The size of the federal government shrank during Clinton’s first two years, before Republicans started running Congress.

    Zandar, we’re on two year campaigns now. When would it have been a good time for him? I’m afraid you have caught the “What will Republicans say?” bug. Get some sleep, eat some soup, and look at it again when the fever goes down.

  56. 56
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    So, you got nothing. Funny how that happens with you teabaggers, ain’t it?

  57. 57
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy: The first time I’ve ever used ODS in a post to anyone was on this thread – to you.

    And you calling me an Obot totally makes my point about you:

    1. As I’ve said repeatedly, Obama admin failed by appointing Rahm
    2. Obama admin failed by not realigning the treasury. Getting rid of the bankster idiots in charge.
    3. Obama failed on the libya thing (the war itself – beside my assessment, his supporting ARGUMENT for subverting congressional authority was FUCKED)

    i mean fuck, just read the threads. My post to you may even one of the half a dozen posts I’ve made in defense of obama.

    And yet you call me an Obot. lulz

    You DO have ODS. sheesh. check the archives – I really don’t think Obot means what you think it means.

  58. 58
    Zandar says:

    I’m not saying he shouldn’t have done it.

    I’m saying this is what will be said.

    The problem is completely with the latter.

  59. 59
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    The problem is that you sound like a republican. Even though you are basically a firebagger. You are engaging in standard Nixonian ratfvcking at every opportunity. In short, you sound batshit.

    I don’t believe YOU even believe this. You are obfuscating and insulting, as per usual. I have voice general themes in this thread supported by many commenters at BJ, yet I am a “republican,” a “firebagger,” a “ratfucker,” and I am “batshit.”

    So anything other the dem side other than “clap louder for Obama” is “ratfucking?” Thanks for clarification on how far gone you are. You put one politician’s personal career above the nation’s well being.

    You guys are really getting desperate, aren’t you. Is Willard making you nervous?

  60. 60
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Is Willard making you nervous?

    How is your daddy, Tagg?

  61. 61
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @geg6:

    Despite the derailing of the thread by our resident reality-challenged, utopian troll, I think is a brilliant move by Obama, both on policy terms and on tactical terms.

    Let’s see, by engaging the topic of the thread I am “derailing ” because my views differ from yours, and…yes, we are all stunned to discover that you think something Obama has done is brilliant, even though it is by design completely irrelevant and will never happen. So surprising. Do you work out of your home or the Obama campaign HQ or the White House itself?

  62. 62
    Danny says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:

    Pigs are gonna mud wrestle and enjoy it.

  63. 63
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:

    So, you got nothing. Funny how that happens with you teabaggers, ain’t it?

    Actually, I have what all citizens have: My voice and my vote. Apparently you are moved only by piles of cash and sheep like voters who enable a corrupt system. YOU and yours are a sickness in this country too.

    Call me whatever you want. THAT’S all you’ve got.

  64. 64
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Danny:

    Bet you Kola never manages to explain just how he’s going to get legislation passed by the Grim Weeper’s GOP House Trolls.

  65. 65
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy: Where have you come out in support of anything Obama has ever done. Can you name one thing, i mean, if nothing else, just so we can frame it and hang it on the wall here at BJ?

    And as usual, your comment is dismissive and fails to confront any substantive claim in my post. If it wasn’t my accusation of you “sounding like a republican” or accusation of “engaging in nixionian ratfvcking” (grow up!, this is barely even ad-hominem, and it’s the damn internet) you’d have found something else to whine about.

    Why don’t you grow a pair and address the substance of a post? I even left another couple for you to be dismissive of. You don’t have a point, you are dismissive, and you accuse me of deflecting? seriously. It’s the internet. It’s easy not to be a coward on a thread. Grow a pair.

  66. 66
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:

    Please link to insults thrown BY me versus insults thrown AT me on this thread. The count is much, much larger in the AT column.

    But then, you’re not interested in accuracy, are you?

  67. 67
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Planning to develop a brain at some point? Your voice seems to spend its time bloviating at random and your vote ain’t going to help Mittens much.

  68. 68
    Brachiator says:

    @cbear:

    I ain’t moaning bout shit, Brac, at least not right now. I was just making a general point about the accuracy of Kola’s statement, which is factually true, regardless of the politics behind it.

    People are righteously unhappy. Their lives are miserable and elected officials don’t seem to have their stuff together. We all agree on that. Again, now what?

    And I apologize for my tone. I have found out that a friend and co-worker has cancer. Treatable, but it may still be a hell of a battle. My general mood is probably a lot more sour than normal.

  69. 69
    Danny says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:

    I’ll match your bet.

  70. 70
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Looks like insult-troll Kola is getting frustrated by the mockery. Funny how you gave up on your pretense of being a liberal so quickly under pressure, ain’t it?

  71. 71
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy: Of course the count is much higher!. You’re one lone batshit troll lost in a thread of people who sometimes try to engage in critical thinking.

    Hint: When everbody else thinks you are insane, it’s probably because you are.

  72. 72
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Danny:

    I’ve got ten good Ameros right here that says Kola never puts up a post detailing what legislation he wants and how it passes the House.

    49ers seem to be smacking the Saints around. Didn’t think it was going to be quite so one-sided.

  73. 73
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    Where have you come out in support of anything Obama has ever done.

    I congratulated the administration more than once on repealing DADT. No, I am not hunting for links.

    The rest of your comment is babble. I’m not playing.

    I want President Obama to do his job aggressively and tirelessly from a Progressive viewpoint. His actions and performance indicate to millions and millions of us that he is not on our side. Or, at best, is lousy at his job.

    I’ve got Obots demanding I lay out Obama’s legislative and executive plan for governing and then specify how it will be enacted.

    Not my job. Obama’s job. He’s lousy at it and should go.

  74. 74
    gaz says:

    @Brachiator: Sucks. We’ll overlook your sour mood.

    As for me, I have no excuse today =)

  75. 75
    kvenlander says:

    @Librarian: Don’t be silly.

    Are you also against defense cuts because they will mean reductions in armed forces employment?

  76. 76
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy: And who should replace him?

  77. 77
    ruemara says:

    Oddly enough, my fiscal conservative Republican friend found the plan to be very sensible. She’s even, *gasp* preferring Obama to the current crop of Republicans. The anti-birth control, social conservative focus is hitting her hard, but the real issue is she’s getting more out of Obama and the ACA than she thought she would.

  78. 78
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:

    Planning to develop a brain at some point? Your voice seems to spend its time bloviating at random and your vote ain’t going to help Mittens much.

    Case in point: Obfuscation/insult, adding nothing.

  79. 79
    kvenlander says:

    Why is everybody playing with the troll today?

  80. 80
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    I am interested in your views and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

  81. 81
    gaz says:

    @kvenlander: Mundane news cycle.

  82. 82
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @kvenlander:

    Why do cats bat around catnip mice?

  83. 83
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:

    Funny how you gave up on your pretense of being a liberal so quickly under pressure, ain’t it?

    Specific, please, O-troll. Is your job to insult and belittle non-Obama supporters on this blog? Do you get a bonus over certain number of names called?

  84. 84
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    You’re one lone batshit troll lost in a thread of people who sometimes try to engage in critical thinking.

    hahahahahahaha…oh dear me…fuck off, gizz.

  85. 85
    Danny says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:

    Maybe I’m up for a high risk wager… But should I put my money on the Saints? …or on Kola?

  86. 86
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    When do you start demanding that the government get out of your Medicare?

  87. 87
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Do you get a bonus over certain number of names called?

    Extra credit?

    I’d make fun of your nick – but oh wait.

    And it’s spelled jizz – just FFR

  88. 88
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Danny:

    Complex one, that. The surprisingly implausible against the utterly unconvincing. I have to recommend the Saints as the better bet.

  89. 89
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:

    Hmmm…I think you really ARE a ratfucker.

    I specifically listed a VIGOROUS defense of medicare/medicaid/SS as a requirement for a candidate I would support, up earlier in the thread.

    However, since you didn’t bother to read that, or are ignoring it in your quest to simply SILENCE me, I’m thinking yeah, perhaps a paid ratfucker here. Or even worse, a sicko stupid enough to do the same free of charge.

  90. 90
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    actually, both spellings are aceptable, gizz breath.

  91. 91
    cbear says:

    @Brachiator: No worries, bro. Sorry to hear about your friend.

  92. 92
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    I don’t want to silence you, Kola. I haven’t laughed so much in years. Please, do continue. Amuse me more. When do we see your interpretative dance on these issues?

  93. 93
    Danny says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    I specifically listed a VIGOROUS defense of medicare/medicaid/SS as a requirement for a candidate I would support, up earlier in the thread.

    So seeing how you think it’s time for Obama “to go”, who do you have in mind? Romney? Paul?

  94. 94
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy: ah, a homophobic slur – classy!

    FTR, I’m bi – and am pretty good at sucking cock. So yeah – sometimes – but that’s old news, cuz see:

    OTOH, I’m married, and I’m not a republican. That’s another way of saying I’m monogamous – and my wife is well – a woman. So no, no jizz breath anymore. She thinks the idea is hot though. I better not let her read this thread – because I’m not in the mood right now.

    TMI? oh well – next time don’t bring sex into the discussion. I love talking about sex. I think one of the problems in this country is that people don’t talk about sex enough.

    =)

    Ya bigot!

  95. 95
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @Danny:

    Gosh, Danny, I may not vote at all. Imagine that. A citizen withholding their vote as a means of disengaging from a corrupt system which offers only corrupt alternatives.

    Millions of us out here….just waiting for a reason to vote for your candidate, and he won’t give us one. Seems sad.

  96. 96
    Tim I says:

    This is perhaps the dumbest post I’ve seen here at Cole’s little hell hole. It is brilliant both tactically and strategically. The President will throwing this kind of curve ball at the Republicans in Congress for the next eleven months. They can either play along and make him look good, or they can obstruct and demonstrate how useless they are. It’s a clear win-win.

  97. 97
    pragmatism says:

    Kola, I can only speculate on your motive (winger concern troll for the record) but I can observe your MO. Create an unreasonable expectation, use the failure to meet that expectation to justify removal, and punt on any argument that your expectation is objectively unreasonable.
    To play along for a second that you would like to see a more progressive direction, wouldn’t electing more progressive senators and reps result in the adoption of progressive ideas rather than solely relying on the exec branch? Fucking checks and balances, how do they work?

  98. 98
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    That’s a pretty boring interpretative dance, Kola. Can’t you manage something a bit more sprightly?

  99. 99
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Tim I:

    What happens if they demand more cuts? The eradication of .. oh, I don’t know.. three departments to be determined by Rick Perry’s shuffle function?

  100. 100
    AA+ Bonds says:

    This post makes you seem depressed :(

    I mean, what is your suggested strategy to this endless doom you are predicting

  101. 101
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy: So, IOW you are voting republican. They absolutely rely on low voter turnout to win elections.

    How do you think 2010 happened? Why do you think all the vote caging laws come out of that particular party?

    Since you are clearly a republican supporter, I feel my ratfvcking charge against you stands. In fact, you may as well scrawl ratfvcker on your forehead in sharpie. If you are still fooling anybody, it’s only yourself.

  102. 102
    Danny says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Let it be known that I admire your courage, if nothing else.

  103. 103
    AA+ Bonds says:

    These agencies have all been captured and that is why this is happening

  104. 104
    slightly-peeved says:

    I like how the guy who got through the largest Medicaid expansion since lbj apparently doesn’t defend it enough.

    Not only does Kola assume anything he doesn’t understand is easy to do, he doesn’t even pay attention to when it has been done.

  105. 105
    MikeJ says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: As you point out, the Republicans *already* want to eliminate 90% of the government.

    You can’t refuse to do anything because you’re afraid the republicans will do something batshit insane. They are batshit insane. The *will* do stuff that is batshit insane. All you can do is what’s best and hope people notice how crazy the Republicans are.

  106. 106
    Lojasmo says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    You understand that the executive and legislative branches are separate branches of govern,net, right?

    millions of us

    The number of gay Americans who are clinically retarded is much less than a million.

  107. 107
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @MikeJ:

    My objection is that this is the wrong time to do this. I think the argument is a good and important one – and ought to be given more prominence and made at a time when people aren’t so obsessed with the GOP primary.

    I also think that it’s going to be easy for the GOP to simultaneously demand more and accuse the president of a power grab. It doesn’t make sense to open the door this way for them.

  108. 108
    gaz says:

    @Lojasmo: I think it’s much easier to sum up the weird dissonance of his position as:

    1. Supports voter enfranchisement. Laments the loss of ACORN (and presumably, dislikes vote caging legislation)

    2. Thinks that purposeful protest through not voting will somehow not run almost directly afoul of #1

  109. 109
    gaz says:

    @Lojasmo: Also, too: The clinically retarded are often good, decent people.

  110. 110
    KG says:

    @Kola Noscopy: Actually, for the record, Obama’s job is to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution from all enemies, forgein and domestic, and to faithfully execute the laws of the US. He’s got a few other jobs, but those are the big ones. Creating the law, that’s more the job of congress. Don’t like the laws being proposed? Get a better congress, which is going to require convincing voters in several states and districts to vote for the guys/gals you like

    Or if you really don’t like he system, call for a constitutional convention and propose a better system. But if all you’re going to do is bitch, and in spectacularly uncreative ways, do it somewhere else. We have standards here, they’re not high, but damn it, they’re there!

  111. 111
    Emma says:

    You know what? I think I’ll wait and see what happens. If I had $100 for each time people have pitched fits over something Obama has done that went on to turn out rather well for our side, I could go to France first class.

  112. 112
    gaz says:

    @KG: Yep. There are a ton of good options, and not voting is not one of them.

    1. Local ballot initiatives, etc. Even if you feel like not voting, these are always worth voting on. Start local.

    2. Pick your representatives, as you say so eloquently above.

    3. If you are passionate enough about protesting to make a non-vote in protest – you should be in the streets – with like minded folks and signs.

    4. If you *do not live in a swing state* vote 3rd party in the presidential elections!. Encourage your friends to do the same.

    5. Run for office yourself! Etc.

    Not voting doesn’t send a message. It just means you don’t give a damned about the kind of government you will receive.

  113. 113
    gaz says:

    @pragmatism: He won’t address that one. He’s in “ignore post that digs me into a blatantly untenable position” mode. (Or maybe that’s what you meant by punting ;), )

  114. 114
    wrb says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Hmm… this is sounding familiar. I think I’ll go back to reading.

    If I wear my pork pie hat right side up it gets cold and soggy if when rains. If I wear it upside down it keeps my head warm but the filling leaks and mounds on my ears and chunks slide down my neck. If I’m quick though I can grab the chunks before they get away and eat them.

  115. 115
    WeeBey says:

    It’s a smart move.

  116. 116
    gaz says:

    @Emma:

    You know what? I think I’ll wait and see what happens. If I had $100 for each time people have pitched fits over something Obama has done that went on to turn out rather well for our side, I could go to France first class.

    Agreed. He even nailed me on one (The auto-bailouts).

    On the other hand – I dislike 11th dimensional chess games in their entirety – Sometimes I feel we sorta needed an LBJ.
    And it doesn’t always work out the way he likes – see ACA – If he had that idea going in – he lied, I think what happened is he tried to maneuver and got shanked. Made some mistakes. The WH does that too much. It’s a tightrope. The WH is better at this 11th dimensional chess game than the opposition, but the opposition has no qualms about going scorched earth. Sometimes I want to see his inner LBJ.

  117. 117
    AA+ Bonds says:

    LBJ fuckin quit before he could lose

  118. 118
    OzoneR says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    The American political system is corrupt and diseased, yet we should help prop it up?

    when you have a better solution, lets us the fuck know.

  119. 119
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @pragmatism:

    wouldn’t electing more progressive senators and reps result in the adoption of progressive ideas rather than solely relying on the exec branch? Fucking checks and balances, how do they work?

    Well, of course it would. I re registered here in Mass so I can vote for Liz Warren. But then you had to go and show your true colors with your last sentence. Your goal is not general progressive advancements; it’s the reelection of barack obama the PERSON.

  120. 120
    OzoneR says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    How’d that Dem voter turnout go for you in 2010, Brach?

    Dem turned was the same as the previous midterm election, when they won Congress, GOP turnout was through the roof.

    Next.

  121. 121
    WeeBey says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Your goal is not general progressive advancements; it’s the reelection of barack obama the PERSON.

    Projection, how does it fucking work

  122. 122
    OzoneR says:

    @cbear:

    I was just making a general point about the accuracy of Kola’s statement, which is factually true, regardless of the politics behind it.

    I don’t think you’re correct. Just because people are dissatisfied with the system doesn’t mean they’re abandoning it the way troll Kola is.

    You can look at Clinton and Congress’ 1995 approval ratings and say the same thing- or Reagan/Congress 1982. Congress is almost always unpopular and Presidents at least some point in their term.

  123. 123
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    So, IOW you are voting republican.

    Weakest sauce every. That was tired in 2009. Though it seems pretty for you to think otherwise, the vote is mine to do with as I please. Nowhere in the constitution is it written I owe my vote to the Dems or Republicans and must always vote for the least horrible option.

    You have been brainwashed, or paid, to act as though you believe your vote is worthless and must not be earned. You are a tool of the fucked up system we have.

  124. 124
    gaz says:

    @AA+ Bonds: so with the passage of CRA considered, you’d call LBJ term a net loss for this country?

  125. 125
    OzoneR says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Your goal is not general progressive advancements; it’s the reelection of barack obama the PERSON.

    which is exactly why John Cole has used this website to raise money for Liz Warren.

  126. 126
    AA+ Bonds says:

    @gaz:

    No, what I said was, LBJ fuckin quit before he could lose

  127. 127
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @Lojasmo:

    The number of gay Americans who are clinically retarded is much less than a million.

    I will allow that comment to just…sit there and display for all here where it is that you are coming from, and adjust their opinions accordingly.

  128. 128
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @KG:

    But if all you’re going to do is bitch, and in spectacularly uncreative ways, do it somewhere else.

    blah blah blah…blogs are for bitching, as you well know. That’s why you’re here: To bitch at anyone who doesn’t see things the REELECT OBAMA way.

    I like it here. I think I’ll stay. YOU could leave though. That’d be nice.

  129. 129
    gaz says:

    @AA+ Bonds: Well, that almost makes it sound like as if (taken in context) that you care more about winning than much else.

  130. 130
    AA+ Bonds says:

    @gaz:

    I care less about winning elections than I do about making policy, is what I’m saying

    But I come on here and play the opposite role b/c of the Emanuelization of the Democrats – I like to please the audience

  131. 131
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Still fucking that chicken, eh, Pepsi?

  132. 132
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    Not voting doesn’t send a message.

    Read much? I’ve said over and over, and again in this thread that I registered so I can vote for Liz Warren, which I will do. Doesn’t require me to vote for the dude in the white house though. I’ll be skipping that box on the ballot.

  133. 133
    AA+ Bonds says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    That seems fine, mathematically speaking, and I’m surprised any Democrat could have a problem with it, maybe a lot of them don’t realize where Warren is running

  134. 134
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    I re registered here in Mass

    Five Pinocchios and loss of down.

  135. 135
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    He won’t address that one.

    Already did, tool.

    It is so revealing how the same clique of BJ commenter always swarm to try to shut down any non-Obama worshipers.

  136. 136
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Petulant troll is petulant trolling again.

  137. 137
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy: Actually you didn’t before I posted that, and I knew you would if I baited you, as you did right there. Thanks for being predictable.

  138. 138
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @OzoneR:

    which is exactly why John Cole has used this website to raise money for Liz Warren.

    and…so? Cole’s blog, he can do what he wants, as you know. He also supports Obama’s reelection, despite many misgivings and disappointments. So…?

    Unlike hard core O-Trolls, Cole does not find it necessary to silence those who disagree, especially those who are mostly on the same side.

  139. 139
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @gaz:

    Nicely played. Expect a Pepsi rage rant any second now.

  140. 140
    AA+ Bonds says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Unlike hard core O-Trolls, Cole does not find it necessary to silence those who disagree, especially those who are mostly on the same side.

    ^a sound observation that many on BJ refuse to realize

  141. 141
    gaz says:

    @AA+ Bonds: Well in that case sir, well played indeed. =)

  142. 142
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    Have you really been in front of your computer for the last three hours?

    Ummm…I went to the store and bought groceries, actually taking a break away from Balloon Juice. It can be done. Then, when I returned, I came back to the thread. See how that works?

    Do you have someone who runs errands for you so you never have to leave the keyboard? Do you wear a shit bag and catheter so you can monitor for firebaggers 24/7?

  143. 143
    AA+ Bonds says:

    @gaz:

    I largely agree with you: 11th dimensional chess can often win elections if luck holds, but it’s often a terrible goddamn way to make policy

    Specifically, because you don’t ever have to make policy, or make policy that fixes the problems you claim to want to fix

  144. 144
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @gaz:

    I think you’ve managed to get under Pepsi’s skin. Chapeau, monsieur.

  145. 145
    gaz says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: Just trying to keep things entertaining. Glad to help =)

    heh

  146. 146
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy: I’m too old to party on weekends. And yes, sometimes my SO runs errands, but I have actually been picking up the house, cleaning things, taking out the trash – you know – the same as I’ve been doing on this thread for awhile.

  147. 147
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @gaz:

    Yeah, Pepsi’s getting boring. Typical trollish lack of stamina.

  148. 148
    AA+ Bonds says:

    I surf BJ on my phone while eating ladies out on the toilet

  149. 149
    Donut says:

    Zandar, your cynicism is appreciated and duly noted, and forgive me if this point has already been made (not gonna wade thru 90+ comments right now), but every single one of the GOP presidential candidates has been blathering endlessly about eliminating regulations – this move effectively nullifies that push. A majority of voters, even GOP or GOP leaners, would have a hard time going as far in the de-reg direction as has been called for by Romney, especially. This move is brilliant politics, maybe even good govt, too, depending on the details. I think this has potential to be a cudgel much like the payroll tax cut. As far as the politics goes, more like this, please.

  150. 150
  151. 151
    gaz says:

    @AA+ Bonds: I absolutely agree with you.

    FTR I’m not voting for Obama’s 2nd term, but not because I’m disaffected (although I am, but that’s not the reason)

    I usually vote 3rd party – I live in WA so obama will get an electoral vote out of my state anyway. I usually just wanna help a 3rd party candidate get in the game. I only voted for Obama the one time, and only because I thought enough of my liberal neighbors might be a wee bit racist – enough to make a difference at the polls. Now, convinced that this is not the case in my state, I’ll revert back to my usual voting habits.

  152. 152
    OzoneR says:

    @gaz: In New York, I have the ability to vote third party AND for Obama (Working Families)

  153. 153
    OzoneR says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    and…so?

    and so those of us who are accuse of being only interested in Obama the Person’s reelection may not be, since we’re the same people giving money to Liz Warren on John Cole’s blog.

  154. 154
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @AA+ Bonds:

    I surf BJ on my phone while eating ladies out on the toilet

    hawt

  155. 155
    gaz says:

    @OzoneR: Awesome. Unfortunately, I don’t live in New York – although I’ve wanted to – sometimes badly – at times past.

    In a few years, I’m headed south though, for better climes, more adventure, and more entertaining politics. Mexico here I come. Also, too: my wife wants to teach school down there, and I work in LA county no matter where I live. so =)

    Alas, New york living for me – will have to wait.

  156. 156
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    I usually vote 3rd party – I live in WA so obama will get an electoral vote out of my state anyway. I usually just wanna help a 3rd party candidate get in the game. I only voted for Obama the one time, and only because I thought enough of my liberal neighbors might be a wee bit racist – enough to make a difference at the polls. Now, convinced that this is not the case in my state, I’ll revert back to my usual voting habits.

    YOu have no right to do this. You OWE your vote to the Democratic Party!

  157. 157
    OzoneR says:

    @gaz: Fusion voting should come to a state near you. Connecticut does it. I heard Oregon does it, but I’m not sure.

    In the end, I think it’s great. Democrats bend over backwards to get the Working Families Party nomination, which means they have to actually…you know…look out for Working Families. This is a major reason why Cuomo agreed to raise taxes on the wealthy.

  158. 158
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy: I don’t owe them shit. I do however, owe it to myself and my countrymen to vote. Even for teh preznit.

  159. 159
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    why?

  160. 160
    gaz says:

    @OzoneR: Yeah, I’ve heard a little about that party, and the Fusion voting. I think it’s a great idea.

  161. 161
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy: Because if I don’t vote, then I don’t have to give a shit who gets elected. Because I’d have no right to give a shit. It’s a simple civic duty. So simple, even you can do it. (apologies to Geico)

    Because I believe in turning out for an election. You can pick and choose whatever the hell office you want, but if you won’t vote for president you have no business bitching about a president or their administration.

    Every office counts and TURNOUT MATTERS.

    Surely, even you – could find someone among any party, that you’d vote for. The fact that you can’t just means you aren’t doing your civic duty and staying abreast of who’s running. Yours is not some sort of heroic stance. Nor does it even rise to the level of protest. You’re saying IGNORE ME! Whatever – you’re lazy. You’re irresponsible, and your protest is ineffectual. You’re free to be that way, but don’t expect anyone to respect you for it. In any party.

  162. 162
    pragmatism says:

    @Kola Noscopy: No Kola, that’s another projection. It only means that I acknowledge the existing system and processes and you ignore them.

  163. 163
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    So would you advocate that voting records be kept and that those who do not vote be denied government benefits at the least. Perhaps they should be fined and/or jailed.

    I mean, they’re not doing their civic duty after all; why not penalize them formally?

    Your weak bullshit is just more societal pressure to participate in a fucked up system, thereby lending it undeserved legitimacy. Now you say it’s not enough to vote for Liz Warren, now I have to fill in EVERY box to be considered a solid citizen.

    Did your fourth grade teacher tell you this?

    Idiot and tool, thy name is gizz.

  164. 164
    gaz says:

    So would you advocate that voting records be kept and that those who do not vote be denied government benefits at the least.

    Actually, I was quite clear – I said you’re free to do as you please, but don’t expect anyone to respect you for it.

    And if you really wanted to avoid societal pressure to “participate in a fucked up system” you’d GTFO of the fucked up system. Of course, you have no intention of leaving. What you *really* want is to enjoy the fruits of said fucked up system, without fully participating in it.

  165. 165
    OzoneR says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    So would you advocate that voting records be kept and that those who do not vote be denied government benefits at the least. Perhaps they should be fined and/or jailed.

    Good God, that isn’t anywhere near what he’s saying.

    But for the record- Australia fines those who don’t vote.

    Your weak bullshit is just more societal pressure to participate in a fucked up system, thereby lending it undeserved legitimacy. Now you say it’s not enough to vote for Liz Warren

    Are you not giving it undeserved legitimacy by voting for Liz Warren? Wouldn’t you consider her a sell out since she’s taking part in this illegitimate system as a member of the DEMOCRATIC Party?

  166. 166
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    And if you really wanted to avoid societal pressure to “participate in a fucked up system” you’d GTFO of the fucked up system. Of course, you have no intention of leaving. What you really want is to enjoy the fruits of said fucked up system, without fully participating in it.

    So now we’re getting closer to your core position. Could it be roughly summed up as “Vote in every election, and fill in every blank, or you have the common decency to leave the country.”

    Also, too: Is it your position that the political life of this country comprises the entirety of the experience of living here? That one’s family, friends, associates, career, home, whatever, mean nothing and should be abandoned if one doesn’t participate in the political system, for any reason whatsoever?

    I think you’re just a political junky, and that ridiculous position gives gravitas, in your mind, to the focus of your interest.

  167. 167
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @OzoneR: @OzoneR:

    Are you not giving it undeserved legitimacy by voting for Liz Warren? Wouldn’t you consider her a sell out since she’s taking part in this illegitimate system as a member of the DEMOCRATIC Party?

    OF course that’s a possibility, and I’ve weighed the options. In fact, I consider it LIKELY that, once elected and in Washington, she will be assimilated and either corrupted or controlled or minimized in the Senate, depending on how much she attempts to maintain her integrity.

    But this time around at least, I’ve decided to allow myself the naive pleasure of voting for someone in whom I see a slight possibility of progressive change and influence.

    I’d think you’d support that.

    We’ll see, won’t we?

  168. 168
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @OzoneR:

    Wouldn’t you consider her a sell out since she’s taking part in this illegitimate system as a member of the DEMOCRATIC Party?

    On a side topic, but one that annoys: It is another small sign of Democratic spinelessness that the party and its members have, over the last ten years or so, allowed DEMOCRAT to become an adjective in the press and the general discourse, without serious pushback. Ie, “Democrat Party,” the “Democrat Senator from wherever,” “Democrat legislation. ” I’ve even hear Democratic officials use the term.

    I have NEVER heard or read a Democratic official or the president call them out on this childish term of disrespect and taunting.

    These people have no self respect, it seems.

  169. 169
    Emma says:

    @gaz: He can’t. This is the thing people keep forgetting. He’s walking two tightropes. One is the political one and the other one is the fact that he has to keep a sizable part of America convinced that he is a stable, even-handed, man. Because that sizable part of America is cowering in terror and waiting for the negro to go all Malcolm X on them. The same people who swear up and down there’s nothing owed to African-Americans spend a lot of time thinking about “those people wanting to get even.” So he keeps on playing the long game. He HAS to.

  170. 170
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy:
    In March 2009, after Representative Jeb Hensarling (R-TX) repeatedly used the phrase “Democrat Party” when questioning U.S. Office of Management and Budget director Peter Orszag, Representative Marcy Kaptur (D-OH) said:
    I’d like to begin by saying to my colleague from Texas that there isn’t a single member on this side of the aisle that belongs to the “Democrat Party.” We belong to the Democratic Party. So the party you were referring to doesn’t even exist. And I would just appreciate the courtesy when you’re referring to our party, if you’re referring to the Democratic Party, to refer to it as such.[38]

    _________________________________________

  171. 171
    Emma says:

    @gaz: Yep. One of my most cherished memories is of meeting Robert Heinlein at a con. He asked me if I was a citizen already and I said yes and he said, in this very serious tone “you WILL vote in every election. There’s something to vote against in every ballot.” I’ve followed his instructions as much as possible.

  172. 172
    gaz says:

    @Emma: While I agree that what you say is true sometimes, I’m not convinced that this is always why. Adding, I think getting rid of Rahm may have done away with some of the worst of the situations.

  173. 173
    gaz says:

    @Emma: Heinlen was a strange bird. But as far as dystopian fiction that was revolutionary to a 14year old mind, I’d take Stranger in a Strange Land over Atlas Shrugged any day. ;)

  174. 174
    Sly says:

    Meanwhile, at the same time we’ll hear that this proposal means President Obama has abandoned unions, working-class Americans, and the idea of any government oversight over trade and commerce, making him a job-killing Wall Street puppet who never really liked American workers anyway, and that he’s precisely the same as the Republicans.

    All Obama does is make pretty speeches. He should demonstrate his progressive bona fides by using the bully pulpit more.

    @Kola Noscopy:
    Elizabeth Warren’s first album was way better than her first album.

  175. 175
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @Sly:

    Aren’t you clever, using all those internet memes and cliche put downs you made up yourself.

  176. 176
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    Thank you for that. Good to know.

    Now if someone in a prominent leadership position would have this woman’s simple stones, things might begin to improve…

  177. 177
    Emma says:

    @gaz: Me too. But he was damn right about the voting!

  178. 178
    Sly says:

    @Kola Noscopy:
    Yummy. Claims of unoriginality from someone who takes the Hipster Douchebag approach to politics.

    Now if someone in a prominent leadership position would have this woman’s simple stones, things might begin to improve…

    Are you even a registered Democrat?

  179. 179
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @Sly:

    from someone who takes the Hipster Douchebag approach to politics

    I see you waste no time getting right to the self-regarding O-Troll insults.

    Are you even a registered Democrat?

    @Sly:

    Why do you ask?

  180. 180
    Cain says:

    This thread is so fucked. I’m learning the art to ignore Kola Noscopy and all replies to him.

    I have no idea why you gaz, and others are responding to this guy.

    Most of this thread is about responding to this idiot. We can have a reasonable discussion if you people can learn some discipline and stop responding to every yahoo who is trying to shine you on.

  181. 181
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @Cain:

    I have no idea why you gaz, and others are responding to this guy.

    Who the hell are you? Is this your first comment in this thread?

    Why is it so important to you to shut down other peoples’ conversations? What’s your agenda?

  182. 182
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @Cain:

    Oh…you’re the head mean girl, petulantly reminding the other mean girls not to talk to the geek/nerd/loser. So that’s the role you play…

    Is this your blog?

  183. 183
    Sly says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Why do you ask?

    Curiosity as to how deep this rabbit hole goes. So yes or no?

  184. 184
    gaz says:

    @Cain: God get a pie filter.

    Sometimes it’s okay to feed the resident troll on a slow news day.

    It’s one thread – and the topic wasn’t particularly active otherwise.

  185. 185
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @Sly:

    Registered Dem from 1976 – 2005. Re registered a few months ago as Dem.

    Now I’m curious, as to how that is relevant. Are unregistered citizens not allowed to discuss politics or have opinions?

  186. 186
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    Oh, interesting…gizz is a submissive Mean Girl, making excuses for her misstep to the Head Bitch, Stain, I mean Cain.

  187. 187
    Sly says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Registered Dem from 1976 – 2005. Re registered a few months ago as Dem.

    Then you should probably stop referring to Democrats as “they” and “them” and start referring to Democrats as “we” and “us.” If only because it keeps tipping off the rest of us that you have no interest in actually doing anything besides piss and moan, and that we can safely dispose of anything you say as woefully shallow and amateurish armchair quarterbacking. Because, and I mean this in the genuine spirit of helpful helpfulness, trying to gussy it up as puerile cynicism isn’t fooling anyone (save perhaps you).

    Now I’m curious, as to how that is relevant. Are unregistered citizens not allowed to discuss politics or have opinions?

    Yeah. That’s exactly what I’m saying. You’re not allowed to have an opinion.

    Christ, but you’re self-absorbed.

  188. 188
    slightly_peeved says:

    @gaz:

    On the other hand – I dislike 11th dimensional chess games in their entirety – Sometimes I feel we sorta needed an LBJ.

    LBJ had a filibuster-proof majority to work with, and Republicans who were willing to deal. And he still had to compromise to get his stuff through.

    LBJ’s reputation as a guy who could get anything he wanted from the Senate is overblown. And even if it wasn’t – there’s a big gap between “not as good as LBJ” and a bad president. It’s like saying Muse are a crap band because they never wrote anything as good as Bohemian Rhapsody.

    You go into the weeds of the criticisms of people who think Obama is a bad president, and generally you find that every Democratic president except maybe FDR is a bad president according to their standards. You’d also find most foreign leaders would classify as bad according to those standards. Probably part of the reason people who think Obama is a bad president don’t like getting into the details of the criticisms too much.

  189. 189
    slightly_peeved says:

    @Sly:

    Well, I’d say non-citizens can contribute. In my country, voting is compulsory. We also have universal healthcare and paid government parental leave, 4 weeks off a year, conscience votes on gay marriage, and a female atheist prime minister.

    Which is all very surprising, given that at no point did our progressive movement stop voting to teach the politicans a lesson. They’re such brainwashed sheeple.

  190. 190
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @Sly:

    You’re ridiculous. I don’t need to pretend that as a “dem” I am part of some imagined team that makes me co equal with Barack and Hillary and the folks who really run the show. I leave those fantasies to your type.

    Like most people here, I use the words I choose the way I choose, and fuck you.

    I say they and them, referring to professional and elected Dems, for the most part, except when I don’t. In which case, fuck you again, you pompous ass.

    I mean you call me self absorbed, while you’re dishing out lectures on how “we” are allowed to speak and write, and what words are permitted in what combinations. Look in the mirror, Sponge Bob.

    Douche.

  191. 191
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @slightly_peeved:

    given that at no point did our progressive movement stop voting to teach the politicans a lesson.

    Curious as to why you think people who stop voting are necessarily trying to teach anyone a lesson?

  192. 192
    slightly_peeved says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Because plenty of progressives and others (libertarians in particular) say that. Go read reddit.

  193. 193
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @slightly_peeved:

    see the word “necessarily” in my question? It has a meaning.

    Reddit? Reddit?! That explains a lot. So basically you troll insane comment threads all over the internet to yell at people who yell back at you. and then you come here.

    There is probably someone somewhere writing something right now that you disagree with!

  194. 194
    gaz says:

    @slightly_peeved: Except that I never said he was a bad president.

  195. 195
    slightly_peeved says:

    @gaz:

    Oh Yeah – I got that. That was more in reference to the people who say he is.

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Reddit? Reddit?! That explains a lot.

    Well, I haven’t been there much, but looking at your comments here, it looked like you were a regular there, and I wanted to pick an example you were familiar with. From your reaction, seems like you know the place pretty well. Think I nailed that one.

  196. 196
    gaz says:

    @slightly_peeved: funny. I’d have guessed /b/ (not reddit) but whatever ;)

  197. 197
    slightly_peeved says:

    @gaz:

    Yeah – could be :)

  198. 198
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @slightly_peeved:

    From your reaction, seems like you know the place pretty well.

    Ha! Now who’s projecting, Mr. Reddit Troller Man?

    Never commented there; never read a thread there. YOU are the one who’s familiar with it because it’s one of your Intertron hangouts. Confess.

  199. 199
    Sly says:

    @Kola Noscopy:
    I realize you’re on the whole “I’m just a disgruntled ‘progressive’ who is going to whine like a stuck pig all day and not take any measurable steps to understand how politics actually works” bandwagon, or the left’s alternative to the 101st Chairborne, like it actually means anything to anyone besides you’re own stupid ego and brand identity. It doesn’t. No one here gives one flying fuck how you feel about politics. If you have something insightful to add, people will respond in kind. If you don’t, you will be mocked or ignored, like the last idiot around here who opined that what America really needs is economic Armageddon that will finally show all the stuipid “sheeple” out there that voting Republican is a mistake.

    If you chose to interpret that fact as us being a monstrous horde of authoritarian Obamba Brownshirts out to crush your delicate right to meaningless and tepid protest on a blog, so be it. We’re not going to care, snowflake. Because when you’re gone, some sanctimonious shithead hipster moron will come along and take your place, only they might not stoop to mocking victims of sex abuse just to be all cool and contrarian in the face of such nightmarish conformity to the party establishment.

  200. 200
  201. 201
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @Sly:

    Wow, you love to hear and read your own bullshit, don’t you? You’re one of those who flit all over the internet, dominating comment boards with your hatred and viciousness. Don’t mean no thang to me, little SlyFly.

    There’s too much crap in your comment to respond to turd by turd, but I will say that if you think politics doesn’t involve peoples’ “feelings,” then you REALLY have no idea what you are talking about. And no idea about yourself. Because if you didn’t have VERY strong feelings about keeping the status quo in power via Obama, you wouldn’t be so sneeringly vitriolic in your comments and attacks. You’d be all…”whatevs…”

    I don’t know where you get off with all the “we” talk, as those you own BJ. There are LOTS of commenters and lurkers here who disagree with your bellicose O-Troll routine. Your defensive lashing out, your constant name calling, and your need to identify with an in group here indicate a very insecure core, little person. Seek help. It’s out there.

    Gosh, did someone mock victims of sex abuse? I missed that. Given your comprehension problems, I’d guess they wrote something about 180 degrees opposed to what you imagine they said, and then your twisted fantasies and bellicose personality took things a whole other direction. Just guessing.

  202. 202
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    lol. you people are utterly pathetic…is there a “high five” in there too?

    are you pumping your fist in the air in your basement? Is your mom bringing more cheese curls?

  203. 203
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    Oh, interesting…gizz is a submissive Mean Girl, making excuses for her misstep to the Head Bitch, Stain, I mean Cain.

    Ahhh U MAD!

    (I almost didn’t notice that one)

  204. 204
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @Sly:

    also too: thanks for the “Obambi Brownshirts of BJ” That’s a keeper.

  205. 205
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    Ahhh U MAD!

    YOu lean heavily on internet cliches and memes, don’t you? Does doing so help make you feel less lonely, as though you’re part of what’s happening, you know, kind of hip?

  206. 206
    gaz says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    are you pumping your fist in the air

    No, because you’re really not that important to me.

    We just like to feed you every now and again, because even a little troll should get to feel self-important sometimes.

    Adding, I’m the one who drew the short straw this week.

  207. 207
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @gaz:

    We just like to feed you every now and again,

    There you are with that Mean Girl “we” again…makes you feel not so alone, doesn’t it?

  208. 208
    gaz says:

    2 replies for one post?

    Ahhh, U MAD!

  209. 209
    Kola Noscopy says:

    goodnight, Brownshirt

  210. 210
    Danny says:

    @slightly_peeved:

    every Democratic president except maybe FDR

    The guy who let austerity hawks pressure him into causing a recession within a depression; the guy who dragged our boys to war against the principled opposition of the Ron Paulian republicans of the day; the guy who rounded up japanese americans and threw them in detention camps without due process?

    Don’t make me laugh, brownshirt.

  211. 211
    colby says:

    @Kola Noscopy:

    “I want President Obama to do his job aggressively and tirelessly from a Progressive viewpoint.”

    The problem is, every time someone asks you what that would mean in terms of what Presidents can actually do, you say:

    “Not my job. Obama’s job.”

    So, you’re argument is essentially that Obama should do what you want and he’s also responsible for figuring out what you want.

    That’s kind of genius in it’s trollish perfection, really.

  212. 212
    colby says:

    On a more important and interesting topic than Kola Noscopy’s Drama Queen routine…

    Streamlining the government is actually the Big Government provision. Dividing the power between a laundry list of agencies with overlapping responsibilities and mission statements is actually a classic way to hamstring them and make sure none of them really do the job fully or properly.

    Look at the defense/intellignece apparatus. There’s so many layers of bureaucracy, so many different agnecies involved, he get these massive intelligence lapses. I’m not saying that was the intent, and I’m DEFINITELY not saying we should give the Pentagon carte blanche on managing national defense, but the result is a slower, less effective government. When we turn to economic management, I WOULD believe that that was the intent, to make the government less able to do anything. I don’t have any evidence of that, so I’m not ASSERTING it, I’m just saying I wouldn’t be surprised.

    Anyway, so if you want the government to actually have more power to regulate trade and commerce, you actually want streamlined agencies in that area (of course, this is predicated on the idea that the new agency will retain all of the same powers, but my read is that that is the case).

    I’m pretty sure the progressive view of an effective, empowered government is more than just spending a lot of money on it and keeping a lot of people employed by it. My view of progressivism, at least, is based on a government actually able to do something.

  213. 213
    wrb says:

    @colby:

    So, you’re argument is essentially that Obama should do what you want and he’s also responsible for figuring out what you want.

    Don’t forget: he’s also responsible for doing it even if it is illegal and/or impossible.

    The need for a magical daddy is boring.

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