Wingers Hate Evil Fat Cats? The Zombie Lie That Just Won’t Die

If Nate Silver is right about the New Hampshire outcome — he’s saying Romney 38.5%, Paul 18.6%, Huntsman 17.0%, Santorum 12.3%, Gingrich 11.5%, Perry 1.2% — then it will turn out that capitalism-bashing did absolutely no harm to Mitt Romney, and that the two guys who sound most like Democrats in attacking Romney’s business record will have finished fourth and fifth, in a state that’s seen as having a moderate GOP voter base.

So won’t that end all the talk about how even Republicans hate the rapacious rich?

Nawww. Pundits and bloggers will just say we need to wait for all that Sheldon Adelson money to work its magic for Gingrich in South Carolina; maybe they’ll say that Jon Huntsman still has a chance, or that he could have a chance if his billionaire daddy would just give millions to his super PAC.

People, please: just stop. Wingnut base voters don’t want Gingrich and Perry to bash Romney as a businessman. Wingnut base voters don’t want Huntsman to bash Romney as someone who wouldn’t serve his country under Obama. Wingnut base voters love businessmen, and they hate Obama vastly more than they love their country.

Stop trying to pretend that Republicans are rational, decent, sane, patriotic people. They’re not. They’re sociopaths and crackpots. They would burn this country to the ground just to rid it of their political opponents. They would openly embrace negative tax rates for billionaires and big business if Fox and Limbaugh started pushing the notion. And every time you portray them as sane, or seemingly sane, or potentially sane, you make it less likely that the rest of America will address the menace in its midst.

(X-posted at No More Mister Nice Blog.)

205 replies
  1. 1
    Zifnab says:

    Stop trying to pretend that Republicans are rational, decent, sane, patriotic people. They’re not.

    Partisan! Anti-American! NotSerious!

  2. 2
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    Do people still think that NH houses moderate GOPers? These days it’s weaponized glibertian kook-kochocracy central, complete with Magna Cartaized legislation. I’d like to see a wall built along the Massachusetts border to keep our jobs safe from the pasty-white dweebling hordes.

  3. 3
    wrb says:

    People, please: just stop. Wingnut base voters don’t want Gingrich and Perry to bash Romney as a businessman. Wingnut base voters don’t want Huntsman to bash Romney as someone who wouldn’t serve his country under Obama. Wingnut base voters love businessmen, and they hate Obama vastly more than they love their country.

    That’s what I’ve been thinking, while hoping that the next few weeks prove me wrong.

    It will be very interesting to see the effect of the attacks on Willard’s popularity.

    We’ll learn something about this country.

  4. 4
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    You are SHRILL Steven for making these fact based statements that disrupt the narrative.

    I kind of wonder if Newt knows this and is just poisoning the well for Mittens in the general election out of pure spite.

  5. 5
    petesmom says:

    “Nawww. Pundits and bloggers will just say we need to wait for all that Sheldon Adelson money to work its magic for Gingrich in South Carolina; maybe they’ll say that Jon Huntsman still has a chance, or that he could have a chance if his billionaire daddy would just give millions to his super PAC.”

    Good. While Gingrich’s negative ads are playing to the unreceptive winger base in the various primary states, they are also being seen by non-wingers.

    I’ve seen polls that say S.C. is actually a possibility for Obama in 2012. Maybe, maybe not. But those Gingrich ads can’t help Romney in the general in any state, and they certainly can’t hurt Obama.

    My biggest fear is that they do hurt Romney in the primaries. I think he’s one of the easiest to beat.

  6. 6
    Judas Escargot says:

    Even the most casual drive through NH will demonstrate that, outside of Nashua and Manchester, there’s not much there. No real industry beyond resource extraction (lumber and the quarries). Not much in the way of services outside of ‘services you need to live in the boonies’, tourism, and shopping.

    Almost 10% of NH residents work (and pay income tax) in MA (and that’s statewide– the figure is closer to 30% for southern NH).

    It’s real easy to fool yourself into how self-reliant and awesome you are when most of the infrastructure that allows you to live a 21st century life is many miles away and/or invisible to you. Hence all the NEWT, ROMNEY and PAUL signs you’ll see on the properties up there.

    If NH wasn’t just north of Massachusetts, it would just be a Yankee version of Alabama or Mississippi.

  7. 7
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    People, please: just stop. Wingnut base voters don’t want Gingrich and Perry to bash Romney as a businessman.

    I’d like to enter into evidence the remarkable number of Americans who still think that Gordon Gekko was the good guy. Please, label this Exhibit M. Yes, officer, M as in moron. No, not Mormon, moron. One M as in Mitt. R as in Romney.

  8. 8
    MikeJ says:

    @petesmom:

    I think he’s one of the easiest to beat.

    I tend to agree. He’s the least macho and most obviously like a used car salesman of the bunch. While Dems may like electing eggheads, the lack of macho really drives down Republican excitement.

  9. 9
    Judas Escargot says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:

    I’d like to see a wall built along the Massachusetts border to keep our jobs safe from the pasty-white dweebling hordes.

    I’d be happy if we just put some toll booths on our side of the border (93 and 95 southbound). They sure screw us enough when we need to pass through that little stretch of NH coastline to drive to Maine.

  10. 10
    evinfuilt says:

    They would openly embrace negative tax rates for billionaires and big business if Fox and Limbaugh started pushing the notion

    You mean they don’t already. If we even touch GE’s negative tax rates then the Repubs would go crazy.

  11. 11
    Martin says:

    @petesmom:

    I’ve seen polls that say S.C. is actually a possibility for Obama in 2012. Maybe, maybe not.

    The only way SC goes for Obama is if the GOP turnout is weak because they hate their candidate *and* Dems GOTV like never before. Even in historic 2008 to McCain who is hardly a southern darling, Obama lost by 9. That’s not an impossible gap to close, but there wasn’t a lot working against Obama in 2008 that will suddenly go his way in 2012, unless the voting law efforts galvanize the left.

    BTW, that’s one of the best GOTV angles the Dems have this year: the whole “They don’t want you to vote – send them a message by turning out”. Might work if the right group backs it and pushes it nationally.

  12. 12
    BruinKid says:

    Or could it be they didn’t do it early enough? The sharp attacks on Romney didn’t really seem to come until Sunday’s debate. That’s too late. Perry’s line was from yesterday. Romney had been sitting with a commanding lead in New Hampshire for months. If you want to make a dent in it, only starting to do so less than 72 hours before voting isn’t the best strategy.

    I think this may be just a case of “too little, too late”. Romney’s a known quantity in New Hampshire. If you want to paint him as the robber baron capitalist, you have to set the narrative weeks, if not months, in advance.

    Also notice that several polls had Romney with 40% or above of the vote in New Hampshire. Perhaps this shows that 48 hours of attacks will cause him to lose about 2-3% in the final results. Now the question is if a sustained attack leading up to South Carolina will cause him to bleed 2-3% support every day or not.

    I’m not sure if you can call it a zombie lie just yet. Let’s also keep in mind Romney spending hand over fist, as well as his super PAC, to both prop him up as Mr. Awesome, while viciously ripping apart his opponents. So even if the capitalism-bashing worked on a given Republican voter, they may have still held their nose to vote for Romney simply because all the alternatives are even more of the clown car variety.

  13. 13
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @petesmom:

    My biggest fear is that they do hurt Romney in the primaries. I think he’s one of the easiest to beat.

    I’d like to believe this, but the polls have consistently given him the best ratings against Obama and have sometimes shown him winning. Admittedly, he ought to be pretty vulnerable to some good, old-fashioned bark-stripping, combined with the idiocy of the recent crop of GOP gubners in WI, OH, MI – but one never knows with these things.

  14. 14
    Comrade Javamanphil says:

    But NPR told me, just last night (for the 85th bazillionth time) that Tip O’Neill and Reagan used to have drinks together and swap Irish stories. Therefore, this blog post and McConnell’s refusal to allow votes on anything are equally the reason we can’t have nice things.

  15. 15
    fasteddie9318 says:

    They would openly embrace negative tax rates for billionaires and big business if Fox and Limbaugh started pushing the notion.

    Why not? We already live in a system where middle and lower class tax money (plus the token amount charged to the oligarchs to keep up appearances) is laundered by the government and redistributed up the economic ladder. Let’s drop the pious baloney, as it were, and just explicitly redesign the tax system toward that end. It would fit nicely with the new adoption of the Magna Carta as the Ultimate Law of the Land.

  16. 16
    Schlemizel says:

    sadly, you are probably right. But I keep hoping someone will open the fridge door so the light will turn on for these morans.

  17. 17
    Cluttered Mind says:

    Moore Award! Moore Award! I’m going to faint!

  18. 18
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    We suffer from a reverse Clausewitz condition which is the logical endpoint of the late 20th Cen. GOP’s Southern Strategy: US politics is now the continuation of civil war by other means.

  19. 19
    Citizen Alan says:

    Stop trying to pretend that Republicans are rational, decent, sane, patriotic people. They’re not. They’re sociopaths and crackpots. They would burn this country to the ground just to rid it of their political opponents. They would openly embrace negative tax rates for billionaires and big business if Fox and Limbaugh started pushing the notion. And every time you portray them as sane, or seemingly sane, or potentially sane, you make it less likely that the rest of America will address the menace in its midst.

    Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

  20. 20
    EconWatcher says:

    I think the attacks on Bain may hurt Romney badly in the GOP primaries (they may not have been around long enough or trumpeted loud enough yet to hit too hard in NH). But I’m not ascribing rationality, decency, sanity, or patriotism to the GOP primary voters.

    Here’s what you’re missing: Tribal thinking. The GOP base is nothing if not a bunch of tribal thinkers.

    Here’s what I mean: If Obama says Romney was a corporate predator who got rich by destroying people’s lives, this would obviously be an example of soshulist, Kenyan, anti-colonial thinking. Of course.

    But if Gingrich, Perry, and Huntsman say it, well, that’s another story. Then it may be taken (we can’t be sure yet) as an example of all-American, antiroyal, meritocratic, Tea-party friendly wisdom.

    Let’s wait and see. And even if it doesn’t hurt Romney in the GOP primaries, it sure as heck helps us for the general, to be able to quote Romney’s own GOP colleagues calling him a predator and a “taker” rather than a “maker.” So just sit back and enjoy.

  21. 21
    Judas Escargot says:

    @Martin:

    BTW, that’s one of the best GOTV angles the Dems have this year: the whole “They don’t want you to vote – send them a message by turning out”. Might work if the right group backs it and pushes it nationally.

    This. If you want the youth vote, you need to make voting feel like an act of rebellion.

    Trouble is, the only candidate currently pushing this angle is (you guessed it) Ron Paul.

  22. 22
    comrade scott's agenda of rage says:

    The late Steve Gilliard said it best many years ago:

    “I’m not writing to make conservatives happy. I want them to hate my opinions. I’m not interested in debating them. I want to stop them.”

    Last time I checked, nothing’s changed.

  23. 23
    Calouste says:

    Via TPM:

    Just a few moments ago, Romney surrogate and former New Hampshire Governor John Sununu made a very odd comment. He suggested that the investor community might punish Newt-backer Sheldon Adelson for funding Newt’s anti-Bain Capital movie, the one they’re going to go to town with in South Carolina.

    Not a smart remark. Americans, and specially wingers, love conspiracy theories and this plays right into that. Newt should run with this if he really want to attack Romney.

  24. 24
    Martin says:

    @Judas Escargot: What’s always struck me as so interesting about NH is how different it is from Vermont, when it really has no business being different. Economically, demographically, geographically, even historically they’re not much different, but politically they’re very different. There’s a lesson in there somewhere.

  25. 25
    Lolis says:

    ref=”#comment-2980052″>BruinKid:

    Co-sign. It is hard to judge the effectiveness of the attacks at this point. South Carolina will be a better place to see the fruits of Newt’s attacks.

  26. 26
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @BruinKid:

    I wouldn’t have expected Romney to lose NH under any circumstances, given the weakness of his opponents thus far. I suspect that they’ve given up on the Lunkhead State and are setting the scene for the Frothing Lunaticarium of SC. Romney’s got Nikki Haley’s endorsement – which might not play so well for him, given that she’s pretty unpopular there.

  27. 27
    Greg says:

    GOP primary voters love their ‘rapacious rich’, but that’s the most fanatical subset of the people who tend to vote Republican in the general. And all those other Republicans and pub-leaning “Independents” are seeing the same ads and the same words spoken by guys with R’s after their names.

    So no, I don’t expect it to make any difference in the primaries, and Mittens will be the guy, but all this sturm and drang is _wonderful_ setup for the general.

  28. 28
    BruinKid says:

    @Martin: There was also the military factor with all the bases in South Carolina that had an affinity for McCain that they won’t feel with Romney or Gingrich, neither of whom ever served.

    Factor in the overall demographic trends nationally, the severe unpopularity of Governor Nikki Haley (R) to the point there’s talk of primarying her, the Justice Department stepping in to block their voter ID law designed to prevent blacks from voting, and that Obama didn’t seriously contest South Carolina in the general election, and there’s enough there that could make South Carolina a swing state in 2012. Though I’d still say it’s quite unlikely.

  29. 29
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Lolis:

    Fruit of Newt sounds like a truly revolting line of underwear.

  30. 30
    Cheryl from Maryland says:

    I am so stealing “Frothing Lunaticarium.”

  31. 31
    handy says:

    @BruinKid:

    Or could it be they didn’t do it early enough? The sharp attacks on Romney didn’t really seem to come until Sunday’s debate. That’s too late. Perry’s line was from yesterday. Romney had been sitting with a commanding lead in New Hampshire for months. If you want to make a dent in it, only starting to do so less than 72 hours before voting isn’t the best strategy.

    No it isn’t, and one has to wonder why the also-rans held their punches for so long. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would almost surmise that this was all by design. As it is, a far easier explanation is that this is the most inept field of candidates I’ve ever seen come from a major political party.

  32. 32
    Martin says:

    @Judas Escargot: Well, it’s too early for the left to push it as a populist action – and Obama has to be careful about how he addresses it right now as it’s going through the courts and as his DOJ is handling these cases.

    But I’d love to see money dumped into the more voting-oriented groups to champion this and come up with a national campaign. They don’t even need to side with a party here – the call to vote is effectively a call for Democrats.

  33. 33
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Cheryl from Maryland:

    Just don’t strip it of its assets and then lay everyone off – that’s all I ask.

  34. 34

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/.....via=blog_1

    Apparently the Romney campaign is accusing Newt of putting capitalism on trial. Could be an interesting conversation.

    Note to dedicated capitalists: Capitalism is a man-made system. We made it. We could change it. Any discussion of just what our overriding economic system should be is a good discussion in my opinion.

  35. 35
    MikeJ says:

    I’ve actually wondered if the Bain attacks coming now inoculate Romney during the general. Every time it gets brought up six months from now Chuck Todd will be telling us that it’s old news has has all been dealt with.

  36. 36
    SenyorDave says:

    @Martin: The same state that elected DeMint and Haley will never go for Obama. Demint might actually be the most odious US Senator, and that is saying a lot.

  37. 37
    kindness says:

    Not all republicans are evil. Just the ones runnin’ the show.

  38. 38
    schrodinger's cat says:

    Wingers Hate Evil Fat Cats

    How dare they insult Tunch. He may be fat, but he is not evil.
    The paw of doom shall visit them soon.

  39. 39
    Judas Escargot says:

    @Martin:

    It’s like the old joke about how “Republicans who like the desert climate retire to Arizona, Democrats to New Mexico”.

    A big part of the NH identity is about how different they are from us Massholes, and a good part of its population is comprised of folks who migrated north because they “Hated (X, Y, or Z)” about MA. It probably stems from that.

  40. 40
    Paul in KY says:

    @petesmom: No way Pres. Obama takes SC, if the repub nominee is anyone saner than Alan Keyes.

  41. 41
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @SenyorDave:

    Demint might actually be the most odious US Senator

    I have a very upset Senator James Inhofe on the line.

  42. 42
    Schlemizel says:

    @EconWatcher:
    @Greg:
    Yeah, thats basically what I have been saying. This message will get into brains that are locked out to Dems.

    @comrade scott’s agenda of rage:
    Damn we miss Steve.

  43. 43
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Judas Escargot:

    I seem to remember there was an attempt to make NH into an ideal libertarian anti-commune recently. Apparently 700 families actually went through with the scheme and immigrated into our neighboring leper colony.

  44. 44
    Paul in KY says:

    @comrade scott’s agenda of rage: RIP Steve. Really enjoyed his blog.

    Edit: and fuck the fucking Yankees!

  45. 45
    Martin says:

    @BruinKid:

    There was also the military factor with all the bases in South Carolina that had an affinity for McCain that they won’t feel with Romney or Gingrich, neither of whom ever served.

    Now that you mention that – one question I’ve been pondering is how Obama’s record here will play with the military/defense crowd. I know it’s CW to assume that these groups will go full-on Republican, but the OBL raid, the light touch (with success) in Libya, getting out of Iraq while focusing on Afghanistan – I know the left isn’t overly happy with that record, but there’s been a lot of attempts to attack Obama over these various military actions, and they’ve all instantly fallen flat. The guy has, to be honest, a great record to campaign on to that set. Not dovish, not hawkish, but seemingly very pragmatic and effective. And he’s probably going to campaign against Mittens?

    Yeah, that could be a big factor in a state like SC compared to 2008. Could be a big factor in a lot of places, in fact. And among service members and recent vets, they seem to LOVE the first lady.

  46. 46
    catclub says:

    @Judas Escargot: “If NH wasn’t just north of Massachusetts, it would just be a Yankee version of Alabama or Mississippi.”

    The funny part of this is that Vermont is right beside NH.

    And vermont is very different.

  47. 47
    catclub says:

    @Paul in KY: There is hope, however. Just remember, in 2008 Obama got 11% of the white vote in Mississippi, but if he had gotten about 16% he would have won there.

    Texas and Arizona also have this kind of possibility in theri futures.

  48. 48

    @handy:
    I think it’s:

    A) Incompetency, like you said – let’s face it, the central fact underpinning all our discussions is that he’s the only candidate who isn’t a raving lunatic, which does extend to campaigning wisdom.

    B) Romney’s not really their primary target anyway. They don’t want to peel away two or three of his 25%. They want to blast each other out of the race and become the sole proprietor of the 75% Not Romney vote. Newt is the first to realize that attacking Romney directly might be the way to do that. Except he probably didn’t realize it, and he’s just being a vengeful ass because some negative ads were pointed at him.

  49. 49
    catclub says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: “kook-kochocracy”

    That is a wonderful word. It helps to say it aloud.

  50. 50
    Kane says:

    It seems like only yesterday that Republican­s were vilifying the OWS movement and having a good ol’ time telling the protestors to take a bath and get a job. Funny how we don’t hear that kind of rhetoric anymore.

    Republican­s are beginning to understand that 2012 will be a populist election and that their likely nominee is a plutocrat.

  51. 51
    TheMightyTrowel says:

    @catclub: Just explained the complex MA-VT-NH-ME relationship to my british other half. He was very disappointed to hear of the Magna-Carta-ites: ‘but that’s NEW ENGLAND??’ As a born/bred Masshole, I felt great glee at shattering his illusions.

  52. 52
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @catclub:

    I am hoping to make it into a corporate person and run it for a GOP Senate seat in Mississippi next time around.

  53. 53
    srv says:

    SteveM, I applaud your honesty, but you don’t go far enough. If a large percentage of the population are sociopaths as evaluated against the DSM-IV, then we should find a solution for that.

    I look forward to your ideas on that matter. Nothing should be off the table.

  54. 54
    catclub says:

    @BruinKid: This. Newt and Santorum are a day late and at LEAST a dollar short.

    It also brings up the phrase “Doesn’t anyone know how to play this game?”

    All of the Bain attacks were there for the taking, forever.

    Others, smarter than I, have noted that the rest of the field has not even bothered to attack Mitt over virtually all the debates.

  55. 55

    I am thrilled that the Republican candidates are bringing up questions that might resonate with people who aren’t registered Republicans.

    We weren’t going to get the votes of the Republican core no matter what anyway. Forget about them.

  56. 56
    fasteddie9318 says:

    @Calouste:

    Romney surrogate and former New Hampshire Governor John Sununu

    This was a brilliant move, by the way. As your point-man against the attacks coming from Newt Gingrich, roll out one of the few people on the planet who are arguably as revolting as Gingrich is. That’s bound to help.

  57. 57
    trollhattan says:

    @SteveM

    Please give me something to argue about–I’m in an arguing mood. In the meantime, where are my bootstraps? I’m sure I left them around here, somewhere.

  58. 58
    gaz says:

    I’ve said it from the beginning. Romney will win the Nom, lose the general.

    I’ll even put money on it. Any takers?

    Thought not.

  59. 59
    Paul in KY says:

    @catclub: I admire your optimistic outlook :-)

    Re SC, I will believe it when I see it.

  60. 60
    jl says:

    I hope Newt keeps up his commie attacks on King Kulak Romney.

    Newt will start recruiting for the Newtonian Revolutionary Youth Brigades soon, to help fight the reactionary cosmopolitan plutocrat Romney, if he senses a profit making opportunity there. It would fit well with the Newtonian Youth Cultural Education enterprise. A guy could sell a lot of Newt gear to the Brigades.

    The Dems can waffle half heart their way through the Nest line of attack and still hit Romney’s strength/weakness.

  61. 61

    @catclub:
    Again, they were trying to take each other out and become Lord Of The Not Romneys. Instead, the chumps disillusioned the Not Romney base and made them reluctantly see that Romney is the only non-laughingstock they’ve got.

    I’m looking forward to the ‘non-laughingstock’ part changing in the general when the public sees Romney speaking instead of hearing that he’s the moderate on the radio.

  62. 62
    fasteddie9318 says:

    @gaz: A couple of months ago I’d have put money on Romney not winning the nom, but at this point there’s no time left for one of the other clowns to mount an effective campaign to stop him.

  63. 63
    BruinKid says:

    @Schlemizel: Interesting point. Would it have been as effective if the attack on Bain came from Obama or other progressive groups? Would a dyed-in-the-wool Republican simply have tuned it out, who will now at least ponder the notion because guys like Newt and Perry are bringing it up?

    Also, it helps provide cover for Obama in the general election, when he or outside left-wing super PACs can now say stuff like “Obama and Perry agree that Mitt Romney is no job creator”.

  64. 64
    Martin says:

    @SenyorDave: Looking at who they send to Congress, I’d agree with you. But the Governor at least partially disproves the rule right off the top. And Obama only lost by 9. Look at the margins in other states:

    Wyoming: -32
    Oklahoma: -31
    Utah: -28
    Idaho: -25
    Alaska: -21
    Arkansas: -21
    Kansas: -15
    Nebraska: -15
    WV: -13 (2 Democratic senators)

    Most of the non-atlantic coast south was -12 to -20. Georgia was -5. By comparison, South Carolina is potentially winnable with the right conditions. It’d take a hell of a lot of effort, and it’s probably not worth it because the EVs are unlikely to factor into any model, but I could see it happening if everything aligned properly.

  65. 65
    redshirt says:

    @Martin: Agreed. An even more striking example I think is Down East Maine compared to the Canadian side of the border. Same people, same land, they’re all doing the same jobs, making roughly the same money, and yet – striking distances. The Canadian site is prim and proper and the Maine side is filled with run down trailers and junkers on the front yard.

    My only guess is government does matter.

  66. 66
    gaz says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: Murray Hill, Inc. had an idea like that already, and ran with it (at least for a senate seat, as I recall). (Props to them, BTW – for taking the Citizens United to it’s ridiculous logical conclusion). I wanted them to win.

  67. 67
    catclub says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: Those do not change hands very often, so good luck.

    I will also note that the Mississippi senators are amazingly sane by comparison with such eminences as DeMint and Imhofe.

    (I think it is because Miss is so poor that the population knows that they need that longterm federal government support that long serving senators and reps bring back, so cannot afford such as Demint or Imhofe.)

  68. 68
    trollhattan says:

    @gaz:

    He just didn’t think he had to work this hard. Hell, he didn’t think he’d have to work at snagging the nomination at all. A bit like how his boys have approached “serving their country.”

  69. 69
    gaz says:

    @fasteddie9318: I wonder why I saw the writing on the wall so early…

    (eyes the other candidates – oh yeah)

  70. 70
    BruinKid says:

    @Martin: I think it’s safe to assume Obama will win a higher percentage of the military vote in South Carolina in 2012 than he did in 2008. How much higher? That, I have no clue.

  71. 71
  72. 72
    gaz says:

    @Martin: Frankly, so far as I can tell, bringing numbers into the equation is only marginally more accurate (and even sometimes LESS accurate) than a “gut” feeling. heh. Just sayin’

  73. 73

    @gaz:
    I have to tell you, I did not factor in the ‘batshit crazy candidates can’t run a campaign, either’ element. Kudos on that.

  74. 74
    Martin says:

    @Judas Escargot:

    A big part of the NH identity is about how different they are from us Massholes, and a good part of its population is comprised of folks who migrated north because they “Hated (X, Y, or Z)” about MA. It probably stems from that.

    But that’s really interesting, because it suggests that politics is less about fundamental issues (which everyone wants it to be about – economics, etc.) and even about policy positions, and more about establishing a distinct identity, even if that identity makes you worse off by driving you to adopt bad policy positions.

  75. 75
    BruinKid says:

    @Martin: And if everything aligned properly, by that point, it probably means that things have improved nationally enough for Obama that he would be winning in a landslide, if South Carolina were to actually become a true swing state this year.

  76. 76
    Rome Again says:

    Wha??? Freeperville (changed this from original blog name so as not to attract any of them over here) has a No Mitt Supporters policy and those people are STILL bug-fuck crazy! Who ever said righties had any redeeming qualities? They lied!

  77. 77
    gaz says:

    @redshirt: Some people in maine get it. I’ve a feeling that a lot of folks in Maine are at least somewhat on board with the sentiments expressed by Steven King (not exactly a flaming liberal all the time either, closer to a gun-toting, blue collar liberal WRT to political sentiment, IMO. I don’t live in maine, I just know a few people from there – and have seen the type of reps they tend to elect. Seems to me that a lot of these folks are salt-of-the-earth, bootstrap blue-collar liberals or at least liberal leaning.

    I’m sure there’s a large crimson streak in the state though…

  78. 78
    jl says:

    @Martin: I look at it is a basic problem inherent in states that are too dinky and small.

    From the hyperborean futuristic ‘with it’ and hep perspective of that great dying empire, California.

  79. 79
    eemom says:

    Stop WHAT? Am I missing something here?

    No, I don’t think there are any good republicans. So fucking what? It’s still a thing of absolute beauty and splendor to watch the bile-crazed Newt screaming the truth about Romney — and there are plenty of people out there other than republican primary voters who badly need to hear it.

    Did all the FPers take stoopid pills today?

  80. 80
    gaz says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: Well, when they started actually selling crazy, I felt that was a league too far.

    It’s one thing to be crazy. It’s one thing to try to identify with crazies. It’s quite another to try to sell it to people. I keep thinking about the John Birch Society, and the GOP’s 1964 “Goldwater” moment. It seems upon us again, in broad strokes – even if the particulars are a bit different this time around.

    History repeats. Especially when some people refuse to learn from it.

    Adding: Romney is a lot of things – mendacious, empty suit, elitist, sycophant, etc. But crazy isn’t one of them. He’ll say what he needs to say to try and win. And he knows better than the likes of Perry and Cain.

    Gingrich (also much like romney) is not exactly crazy – but people remember him too well. He’s too memorable. Romney not so much. Process of elimination and all that.

  81. 81
    ornery_curmudgeon says:

    Stop trying to pretend that Republicans are rational, decent, sane, patriotic people. They’re not.

    Awesome, someone who can tell it straight. I also wish to subscribe to your newsletter…

  82. 82
    Hill Dweller says:

    Both the WaPo and WSJ have completely dismantled Romney’s bogus job creating nonsense in the last couple of days, which I suspect gives the Bain criticisms even more credibility with low-info voters.

  83. 83
    cmorenc says:

    @SteveM:

    People, please: just stop. Wingnut base voters don’t want Gingrich and Perry to bash Romney as a businessman… Wingnut base voters love businessmen, and they hate Obama vastly more than they love their country.

    The key thought here is NOT that wingnut base voters have suddenly started hating the rapacious rich, but INSTEAD that because they hate the possibility of losing to Obama enough, some of them are sociopathically astute enough to recognize that enough among the less rabidly inclined voters who might otherwise be persuadably inclined to vote GOP in the Presidential election might themselves have enough of a negative reaction to the Romney the rapacious job-killing vulture capitalist meme to decisively swing the election in Obama’s favor. YES they would much prefer to win the Presidential election with a bona fide wingnut conservative candidate rather than win with Romney, but most of them would eventually climb willingly aboard the bandwagon and vote Romney in November in order to take care of priority #1, getting rid of the black Kenyan socialist usurper in the White House. HOWEVER, if the argument that Romney’s the strongest candidate against Obama suddenly begins to appear much less convincing, then quite a few of them may decide to vote for someone they regard as a more true conservative; why not, if their preferred candidate’s chances are no worse and maybe even better than Romney’s diminished chances suddenly appear? Yeah, the big majority of them were going to vote for whom they liked best ideologically, not who they thought had the best chance against Obama. However, enough of them were with Willard as the best-chance vs Obama that a significant shift among this faction could make New Hampshire significantly closer than expected, and South Carolina a real horse race.

  84. 84
    eemom says:

    @Greg:

    ….or, what you said. Much more politely. :)

  85. 85
    Jim Pharo says:

    They would burn this country to the ground just to rid it of their political opponents

    They already did it once in1860.

  86. 86
    redshirt says:

    @gaz: Oh there’s plenty of Liberals in Maine. It’s probably one of the most Liberal states there are. But they’re concentrated in the more urban South of the state. It’s damn rural everywhere else, and you certainly get the same mix of crazy wingnuts as other rural parts of the country. I was speaking more to a general cultural difference between Down East Maine and the Canadian border, mirroring the difference say between NH and Vermont. Though there’s plenty of wingnuts in rural parts of VT too.

  87. 87
    Keith G says:

    If you want to be up to date with the smartest view on this, go to the Diane Rehm Show.

    Yesterday’s show is described:

    Americans responded to the Great Depression with resolve: Wall Street crooks went to prison, public works programs created jobs, and a new social safety net aided the poor and elderly. By the late 1930s, Democrats held a majority in Congress, which lasted for nearly 60 years. The 2008 financial meltdown nearly equaled the Great Depression. But the political outcome was starkly different: Republicans took back the House in 2010 as public rage shifted from Wall Street to government. Diane talks to author Thomas Frank about what he calls a “hard-times swindle,” which he says fueled an unlikely conservative comeback.

    Very good and necessary analysis.

  88. 88
    jl says:

    @eemom:

    “No, I don’t think there are any good republicans.”

    I’d like to say that is far too harsh.

    But, after family rounds during Holidays, I noted to myself that there are no sane Reblicans left in my extended family, which used to be about half GOP.

    All the sane non sociopathic who were once Republicans are now ex Republicans, and are either Democrats or independents.

    Only the teabaggers in the family are still Republicans.

    I started learning about the migration this summer visiting some family in the Rocky Mountains. As in

    me: I better not mention the GOP primary around your place, I don’t have one good thing to say about any of them.

    cousin: Say what you want, she’s a Democrat now. Couldn’t take the craziness anymore.

  89. 89
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @eemom: It’s addressed to professional and amateur pundits: hey, dumbass, stop expecting Republicans to be anything other than crazy. I think you agree with that…

  90. 90
    Paul in KY says:

    @jl: Comrade Gingrichovich is in the vanguard of the people’s revolutionary counter-front!

    All hail Comrade Gingrichovich!

  91. 91
    JC says:

    There was a bit of research that found that the number of immigrants are much less than what people estimate. And yet, the majority of people, when confronted by the facts of the situation – simply dismissed the facts.

    The same thing goes on with ‘the conservatives’. We can easily make this country great again, reduce the debt load of the country, invest in the country – but you point out the facts, and people just willfully ignore them. And then get right back on their moral high horse.

    It’s so strange.

  92. 92
    gaz says:

    Bottom line with all that I said can be summed up as such:

    There are essentially two types of candidates for the GOP nom right now.

    The ones that drink their own (or rather, the GOP’s) current kool-aid, and the ones that don’t.

    My money is on the ones that don’t.

  93. 93
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Paul in KY:

    Isn’t it Lenin Newtovich Gingrichoff?

  94. 94
    p.a. says:

    I don’t know who to credit for it, but one of the best descriptions of Republicans I’ve read in years goes something like,”they’d vote themselves into living in a cardboard box roasting sparrows on a curtain rod if the black/Mexican/liberal/union worker in the next box couldn’t afford the curtain rod…”

  95. 95
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @gaz: But at least, from a conservative-friendly perspective, Goldwater was trying to do something new-ish with the Republican party, and, over the long haul, it pretty much worked. Are any of these chumps trying to do something new with their party? Will any of them be remembered as vital to the development of 21st century American politics? I don’t see it, unless either Paul or Huntsman cultivates a critical mass of supporters that, 16 years later, rolls the party back to either Goldwater or Rockefeller.

  96. 96
    gaz says:

    @p.a.: That can be summed up in 3 apt little words:

    Crab Pot Politics.

    It’s the alpha and omega of the modern GOP.

  97. 97
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @p.a.: IIRC that was Davis X. Machina’s line.

  98. 98
    Linnaeus says:

    @p.a.:

    I don’t know who to credit for it, but one of the best descriptions of Republicans I’ve read in years goes something like,”they’d vote themselves into living in a cardboard box roasting sparrows on a curtain rod if the black/Mexican/liberal/union worker in the next box couldn’t afford the curtain rod…”

    Sadly, this describes far too many Americans. It amazes me what people are willing to accept or even actively support as long as someone else is brought lower than they are.

  99. 99
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    @Martin:

    But that’s really interesting, because it suggests that politics is less about fundamental issues (which everyone wants it to be about – economics, etc.) and even about policy positions, and more about establishing a distinct identity, even if that identity makes you worse off by driving you to adopt bad policy positions.

    Politics tends to be about economic interests when people feel that (A) they have economic interests at stake which can potentially be swung in one direction or another depending on the political outcome, and (B) people feel they have some influence, even if only minor, over the political outcome.

    What we have in the US today is a situation where a very large fraction of the electorate feel that (A) both sides do it when it comes to feeding the vulture capitalists, so what does it matter who wins? and (B) they the voters are in any case powerless to affect to outcome of our elections due to the influence of big money.

    That’s a perfect setup for people to vote based on cultural identity rather than economic interests, if they even vote at all. Hence, What’s the matter with Kansas the nation.

  100. 100
    srv says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    or Rockefeller.

    Think the democrats already have that position covered.

  101. 101
    gaz says:

    @FlipYrWhig: I basically agree with your premise. And my observation was primarily directed at the JBS – which I think was pretty close to what we’ve got with the tea-birchers these days.

    Goldwater knew politics. Most of these clowns – they don’t.

  102. 102
    ...now I try to be amused says:

    @kindness:

    Not all republicans are evil. Just the ones runnin’ the show.

    The Republican career ladder is a distillery of evil, all the way down to the College Republicans.

  103. 103
    pseudonymous in nc says:

    @MikeJ:

    I’ve actually wondered if the Bain attacks coming now inoculate Romney during the general.

    Not unless Willard gives away all of his ill-gotten money between now and November.

  104. 104
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @…now I try to be amused:

    The Republican career ladder is a distillery of evil

    It’s that trickle-down liquor poisoning innocent hearts again.

  105. 105
    gaz says:

    @MikeJ:

    I’ve actually wondered if the Bain attacks coming now inoculate Romney during the general.

    They won’t. Not if Mitt Romney has anything to say about it.

    The man is a gaffe *machine*.

    He’s stuck his foot in is mouth so often, he knows the shoe size of his face.

    Adding, if nothing else, that alone is why he’ll lose the general.

  106. 106
    Splitting Image says:

    With regard to South Carolina in the general, I agree with some other people that I’ll believe it when I see it, but I wouldn’t count it out entirely.

    I think Obama’s most likely pickups are Arizona and Georgia. If Obama goes hard into Georgia (again) and holds on to Virginia and North Carolina, South Carolina will be getting a lot of advertising over the air even if Obama doesn’t contest the state. There may be enough “vote-for-the-winner” types in the state who look like hardline Republicans simply because the Republicans always win. If Obama pulls close enough that it looks like a toss-up, he may be able to shake enough voters loose to pull off an upset.

    Remember, until 2008 nobody thought he could win Indiana either.

    If I had to forecast the election results with a Romney nominee, I would go with Obama picking up Arizona and Georgia, and losing Indiana, New Hampshire, and possibly the Omaha district in Nebraska. The rest of the map stays the same. Romney supporters seem to think he has a shot at Michigan and Pennsylvania, but I’m skeptical.

  107. 107
    jl says:

    @Paul in KY: thanks. I forgot to use ‘vanguard’.

    Edit: and I think gaz meant ‘face size of his shoe’

  108. 108
    pseudonymous in nc says:

    I don’t see it happening in Georgia. You have a crappy Voter ID law, a wingnut (birther) governor in Nathan Deal, and an ever-expanding exurbia around Atlanta filled with people who thought and still think that Obama wants to take away their guns so that Those People can head out from the city and steal their lawn tractors.

    SC is a less-extreme example of Alabama in terms of its racial voting polarisation. Running hard in NC and having the convention in Charlotte will be interesting, because there are definitely media-market crossovers, but I wouldn’t put it past the voters of Lesser Carolina to stick with the GOP just because NC prefers Obama.

  109. 109
    EconWatcher says:

    @Splitting Image:

    I don’t see how Romney gets Michigan after opposing the auto bailout. PA might be a little more doubtful, depending on turnout. [Insert Carville quote–“Philly on one end, Pitt on the other, and Alabama in between.”]

  110. 110
    scav says:

    @jl: “face size of his shoe” “shoe size of his face” — either is brilliant. His orthodontist prepared for the condition and the white flecks on his shoes are Crest. He flosses with shoelaces.

  111. 111
    catclub says:

    @jl: Nope, the size of shoe that fits into his face.

    Although it is the size of shoe that fits over his foot.

  112. 112
    catclub says:

    @pseudonymous in nc: Does anyone know breakdowns like the one I mentioned for Miss.,
    of 11% of whites voting for Obama in 2008?

    What percentage in SC or Alabama?

  113. 113
    Paul in KY says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: That’s one of his revolutionary names. Usually shown as ‘L. N. Grinch’

  114. 114
    MikeJ says:

    Didja see the latest in the fail parade that defines the Republican party? Huntsman, the only marginally sane person running for their nomination, didn’t get on the ballot in Arizona.

    How many is that now? Most of them failed in Virginia and only Romney, Paul, and Gingrich didn’t fuck up in Illinois.

  115. 115
    gaz says:

    @catclub: I dunno guys. Hell, I can’t even claim credit for the original phrase – although I think I’m quoting it more or less correctly.

    I read it somewhere, a long time ago.

    Seems to apply here is all.

    And LOL @scav – heh.

    He flosses with his shoelaces – =) made me smile.

  116. 116
    SenyorDave says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: Hence the hedging. I actually could’t remember whether Inhofe was still in the Senate. It’s a close call, I’d also include Shelby and Sessions in the “My Senator is a sack of crap club”.

  117. 117
    Geeno says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: Gingrichov….
    Гингричёв
    I like it, I’m stealing it.

  118. 118
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @redshirt: Maine splits D/R along a dividing line along more or less the Turnpike. Or as my dad said, where the seagulls you hear aren’t at the landfill. It’s Massachusetts, except where they are at the landfill — there it’s New Hampshire.

    There are paradoxical pockets — urban Franco-Americans who vote D because fifty years ago the local Republican banker wouldn’t give their mill-worker parents a mortgage, but are rabid anti-abortionists. Salt-water Yankee Republicans who don’t care if you marry the lawn tractor, so long as the top marginal rate is low and there’s no yacht tax… but basically, it’s West Virginia, with lobstahs.

    (My own town will go 63-37 for anything with an R after it. I had my minivan’s windows smashed in ’04 for its anti-war and anti-Bush bumper-stickers. Had to pull my kids off the school bus because of Jew-baiting, too.)

  119. 119
    Cat Lady says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    West Virginia, with lobstahs.

    Maine is the other end of the Appalachians.

  120. 120
    Schlemizel says:

    @BruinKid:
    Yeah, I think if Obama or really any Dem brings it up it will get rejected out of hand by some number of low information voters as just what you’d expect from the soc.a lists.

    But, since it comes from ‘free-market capitalists’ it can seep in. And it never hurts to say “even guys in your own party pointed this out”

    I think Willard is going to be harder to beat than a lot of people here (maybe the natural pessimist in me but I always want to be prepared for bad outcomes) and anything we can get to stick to him before its the Dems turn to come to bat is a good thing. Although someone mentioned this might give cover to Chuck Todd & the dick whisperer to claim “it all old news”. I’m hoping Noot & Bush-even-lighter get a good coat of tar on him this spring.

  121. 121
    Hawes says:

    But Wingnut voters also hate Willard Romney, too.

    So there is THAT.

  122. 122
    WereBear says:

    @catclub: Just remember, in 2008 Obama got 11% of the white vote in Mississippi

    Damn, I didn’t know that! But just another of the zillion reasons I don’t live in the South any more.

  123. 123
    Schlemizel says:

    @p.a.:
    OUCH! I love that, its too true. Google was no help in finding an origin – but thanks for that quote!

  124. 124

    Yes don’t forget that these are the people who CHEERED when Chicago didn’t get the Olympic Games because they didn’t want Obama to have a “win.” Nor could they be happy that a sitting U.S. president was given a Nobel Peace Prize — no matter how undeserved, it was still the polar opposite of getting a shoe thrown at him on live TV. But no pats on the back for Obama then, either.

    Nope they couldn’t even be happy when Obama killed Osama bin Laden, public enemy #1 for the past 10 fucking years. Nope, that was just Obama stealing Bush’s glory.

    Is there a more mendacious, despicable, treasonous lot in our midst? I think not.

  125. 125
    Schlemizel says:

    @srv:
    Modern Dems are to the right of Nelson by a good margin, sadly.

  126. 126
    muddy says:

    @Martin:
    They might be geographically similar by longitude and latitude, but the land is entirely different, and in my thinking probably a good basis for the political climate.

    Vermont’s mountains are smaller than the ones in NH and NY to the side. This is said to be because Vermonters should get to look at the pretty views. A great deal of Vermont is farmland, and even more is suitable to be farmland, or at least it used to be. 150 years ago Vermont was 75% cleared, I think it is the other way around now. There are many stone walls in the woods. NH is not farmed to that extent, they have more extraction economy (wood, stone, previously furs). I think they have traditionally had a more individual notion of things due to the terrain.

    In Vermont there was much more doing things in groups, the town is very important. And remains important, the schools are run at the town level, and town meeting too. Altho town meeting is not what it used to be. 20 or 30 years ago it was a work holiday, kids were out of school, so everyone could attend. Now they mostly have a brief version at night and then Australian ballot the next day.

    Anyway my view of difference from the west coast of NE.

  127. 127
    Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:

    Isn’t it Lenin Newtovich Gingrichoff?

    He is Leader of the Revolutionary People’s Granite Counter Front.

    Splitter!!

  128. 128
    boss bitch says:

    Never thought it would hurt him in the primary but it will go a long way in the general.

  129. 129
    Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason says:

    @SenyorDave: Add Senator Toomey to the sack of crap club. I dunno about PA. We dump Santorum and then turn around and elect another version of the same ol’ crap.

    My canvassing line was “Who do you want for senator, a retired admiral or a former hedge fund trader? We got the latter.

  130. 130
    Judas Escargot says:

    @Martin:

    But that’s really interesting, because it suggests that politics is less about fundamental issues (which everyone wants it to be about – economics, etc.) and even about policy positions, and more about establishing a distinct identity, even if that identity makes you worse off by driving you to adopt bad policy positions.

    At the risk of sounding elitist… low-information voters, almost by definition, aren’t competent to determine which policies help them, and which would hurt them. So the tribalism is all they have.

    I’ve come to believe that the starving of the education system over the past few decades is an intentional feature, not an accidental bug.

  131. 131
    Paul in KY says:

    @Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason: I thought he was with the People’s Revolutionary Marble Counter Front! Kill em!

  132. 132

    @Kane:

    It seems like only yesterday that Republican­s were vilifying the OWS movement and having a good ol’ time telling the protestors to take a bath and get a job. Funny how we don’t hear that kind of rhetoric anymore.

    What makes you think that? These people have never had a problem with hypocrisy, cognitive dissonance, and plain old contradiction before.

  133. 133
    Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason says:

    @p.a.: Your quote is in the Balloon Juice lexicon under “27%er”. Lots of other good stuff in the lexicon, too.

  134. 134
    The Moar You Know says:

    I don’t see how Romney gets Michigan after opposing the auto bailout.

    @EconWatcher: I do. Romney’s white. Michigan has some of the most fucked up racial politics I’ve ever seen.

    Never underestimate the desire of white folks to stick it to black folks regardless of what it costs them personally.

    (for proof of my assertion see: combatants in Civil War)

  135. 135
    Schlemizel says:

    @Judas Escargot:

    I’ve come to believe that the starving of the education system over the past few decades is an intentional feature, not an accidental bug.

    Never a doubt that was their goal. It also helps feed the Christianist crackpots – I had one tell me last year that the country was in trouble when they started putting science above Jesus!

  136. 136
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    I wonder whether, for strategic purposes, it might be worth waving a few signs saying “Audit the Fed, Audit Mitt Romney”.

  137. 137
    Rita R. says:

    Today’s results won’t prove anything about this line of attack because Gingrich et al have really just started it in the last few days. The anti-Romney superPAC ad about Bain that Gingrich was talking about in the debate didn’t even run in N.H., it’s set for South Carolina, and that’s where the really tough stuff is going to go down.

    Look, the point isn’t that Romney’s going to lose the nomination. He most probably doesn’t. The point is that Gingrich (chiefly) and the other GOP candidates doing this have given Obama’s people a gift by doing the work of softening up Romney on Bain for the general election, opening up the issue for Republican and GOP-leaning independent voters who might tune it out if it first came from Democrats. When Obama hits this in the general, now those voters have already heard it from Republicans.

    Does this win votes for Obama from the crazy GOP base? Not likely. But it could get him some from GOP-leaning independents and perhaps disgust some of those base voters who already don’t like Romney just enough to push them even more towards just staying home on Election Day.

    As someone else said, not all Republican voters are sociopaths and crackpots. I sadly have some in my family, and they aren’t either of those things. What they are is brainwashed by Fox News and talk radio, and hitting Romney with that style of attack that they’re used to seeing deployed against the Dems can do some damage.

    Again, Republicans know this. The CNBC fluffers of the 1 percent were whining about Gingrich going after Romney on Bain. Rush Limbaugh, the true socipath leading light of the party, was also slapping Gingrich for doing this. You think they’d be talking about it if they didn’t perceive it as a threat?

  138. 138
    Schlemizel says:

    @The Moar You Know:
    YUP! See the quote P.A. put up!

    On the other had I have to believe there will be a big shift in the normally Republican stronghold on Muslims (of which there are more than a few in MI)

    Did anybody see the take down TDS did on the Dipstick Republican in FLA denying membership to a guy because he was a Muslim?

  139. 139
    redshirt says:

    @muddy: Interesting to note: Maine and Vermont are the only 2 states never to vote for FDR. Each was a bastion of old school Republicanism (in the good, Lincoln sense) until the 60’s. And then came the Southern Strategy and everything flipped. We are of course all still living with the ramifications of this flip.

  140. 140
    Tone in DC says:

    @pseudonymous in nc:

    I don’t see it happening in Georgia. You have a crappy Voter ID law, a wingnut (birther) governor in Nathan Deal, and an ever-expanding exurbia around Atlanta filled with people who thought and still think that Obama wants to take away their guns so that Those People can head out from the city and steal their lawn tractors.

    LULz.

  141. 141
    EconWatcher says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    I grew up in Michigan, but I haven’t lived there in almost 30 years, since high school. The place was segregated and nasty then, and I gather it’s gotten worse, if anything.

    But Obama won Michigan by like 16 points in 2008. And this time, he’ll presumably be running against a candidate who would have let the state’s central industry disappear overnight. As long as his campaign is competent, I don’t see how he loses Michigan.

  142. 142
    Kilkee says:

    Is it just me, or does Maine seem to have a disproportionate representation on this blog? (He said, gazing out at the Western Prom.)

  143. 143
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @EconWatcher:

    Two words: Rick Snyder. Slightly less popular than botulism or herpes.

  144. 144
    redshirt says:

    @Kilkee: Anytime more then 3 Mainers gather anywhere outside of Maine it is an odd occurrence and people should be suspicious.

  145. 145
    Suffern ACE says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: yeah, everyone says so-NOW, but if the folks got all excitable and voted for snyder they’ll forget that they did that and get all excitable again and vote for Romney.

    Mullah Gutierrez is moving next door to behead you and no one wants to stop him. What you gonna do? Be happy your major industry had a bail out? I’m guessing the majority of voters in Michigan hate the auto industry. They certainly voted that way.

  146. 146
    EconWatcher says:

    @Suffern ACE:

    I saw one debate in the Michigan governor’s race. Both candidates were pathetically unimpressive, but the Dem looked somewhat worse IMO. You gotta come up with decent candidates if you want to win these things.

  147. 147
    Schlemizel says:

    @Kilkee:
    It would be interesting to do a roll call & see how the states are represented (and which, if any, are not)

  148. 148
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @redshirt: I’m not an actual L.L. Blut und Boden Mainer. I’m a Masshole, born in Dorchester to boot. But I’ve got anchor babies!

  149. 149
    comrade scott's agenda of rage says:

    @pseudonymous in nc:

    I don’t see it happening in Georgia. You have a crappy Voter ID law, a wingnut (birther) governor in Nathan Deal, and an ever-expanding exurbia around Atlanta filled with people who thought and still think that Obama wants to take away their guns so that Those People can head out from the city and steal their lawn tractors.

    Using MARTA (which as a wingnut *acquaintance* of mine from there calls it “Moving Africans Rapidly Thru Atlanta”) to get there.

    Again folks, the GOP plays the long game and the local game, ie., controlling the states so they can control the voting process which a fancy way of saying voter suppression.

  150. 150
    MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    Mexican Muslim terrorist border-crossing fence-necessitating anchor babies? Cause you know that those are the only real ones, right?

  151. 151
    Linnaeus says:

    @Suffern ACE:

    I think the result of the 2010 MI gubernatorial election had less to do with feelings about the auto bailout and more about blaming Jennifer Granholm for the state’s problems, and by extension any Democrat. And Virg Bernero couldn’t really break through, as he had little name recognition and didn’t have a truly statewide reach.

    Michigan’s GOP has, like the national party, gotten very very nasty. The folks from the west side of the state that control the party are so bad that even suburban Detroit Republicans try to put a break on their nuttiness every now and then. When Brooks Patterson, the suburban county executive who made his political bones opposing cross-district busing in the 1970s looks like the moderate in the room, you’ve gone off of the deep end. Anyway, these Goopers pretty much despised Granholm and tried to obstruct everything she wanted to do (and yes, like any politician, she made her share of missteps). It’s sort of a micro-version of what you’re seeing play out on the national level: wreck everything you can, blame the other party, try to depress turnout, etc.

  152. 152
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: Nope. No one much cares about Mexican or Muslim anchor babies — Mexicans are exotic novelties, and one of the first mosques in America was established down in Biddeford/Saco.

    It’s worse in my case, much worse — my wife’s from Newark, and I’m from Boston. That’ll really put a Mainer’s teeth on edge.

  153. 153
    redshirt says:

    @Davis X. Machina: I’m the opposite: A Mainer born and bred, but now posing as a Masshole in Boston. I long to return.

    I have a house in Maine – right next to Greenwood, which I’ve learned (and they learned, and everyone “learned”) recently is the birthplace of Leon Leonwood Bean. Or so they say on their new “Welcome to Greenwood” signs.

    I’ve also spent time at Milton Bradley’s birthplace, and as all good Bangorians, a great deal of time with Stephen King – the good one, not the bad one from Iowa or wherever.

  154. 154
    Judas Escargot says:

    @Schlemizel:

    IMO, the trend towards Home-schooling is one of the great threats to the Republic. They’re basically breeding next century’s Barbarian Tribes.

    The old Romans had to import their pillagers and conquerors. Ours will have been grown domestically.

  155. 155
    muddy says:

    @redshirt:
    I think the farming still might have a bearing on what happened between FDR and now. A lot of people came here in 60’s and 70’s for communes or at least back to simple living. Not being a farming place, NH did not receive this liberal cohort.

    I tell you what they do have for work in NH and that’s heavy duty major project earthmoving on the interstate that just goes on and on and on for years. Good stimulus for them I guess. It always seems too overbuilt to be, only the part by MA ever has any traffic at all.

    In recent years the Republicans are worse in VT than they used to be. Formerly you had to find out about the individuals and sometimes you’d go one way and one another. Not any longer, at least for me. I lived briefly in NC and all you had to do to be knowledgeable in your vote was to look for D or R. But a lot of low-info voters I know in VT don’t realize how dreadful the national Republicans are, because they think they are just versions of VT Republicans. I don’t vote for them anymore, but none of them are anything like the national weasels.

  156. 156
    Schlemizel says:

    BTW – anybody know who is behind “ending spending inc”? They are the ones running the ads on the sidebar here about exposing the Presidential candidates “UNCUT“.

    Given the large amount of wingnut adverts on BJ I half expect its some trojan horse for one of them showing all the others behaving badly & their boy as the love child of Captain America and Albert Einstein.

  157. 157
    cckids says:

    @Judas Escargot:

    I’ve come to believe that the starving of the education system over the past few decades is an intentional feature, not an accidental bug.

    This. Using the ‘teach to the test’ methods to the exclusion of all else, the “walk silently in single file in the halls”, the de-emphasis on thinking & problem solving. . . what else are those methods useful for except to create a population who believes everything they are told, sees anyone different from them as “other” and fearsome, and cannot tell a fact if it bites them in the ass?

  158. 158
    muddy says:

    @redshirt:
    Mainers? I heard it was Mainiacs.

    (sorry)

  159. 159
    Ben Cisco says:

    Die, Zombie Lie, Die! | My Ready Room
    __
    The mainstream media would gleefully report on the apocalypse that would result from Republicant rule, and would put the Gulf War-era Iraqi Information Minister to shame in the process.

  160. 160
    Jay in Oregon says:

    @MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:

    I seem to remember there was an attempt to make NH into an ideal libertarian anti-commune recently. Apparently 700 families actually went through with the scheme and immigrated into our neighboring leper colony.

    That would be this: http://freestateproject.org/

  161. 161
    Judas Escargot says:

    @cckids:

    My stepdaughter’s a Junior in HS.

    I’ve seen no evidence that there’s any critical thinking/problem solving skills being taught, at all. Even in sublects where it should be hard not to touch upon those, like Math and Science.

  162. 162
    Martin says:

    @Jay in Oregon: I like how the Free State Project website requires Adobe Flash player. That is probably more amusing to me than it should be.

  163. 163
    redshirt says:

    @muddy: All I know about Maniacs was it was the tag line of the Air Guard. Mainers seems the default tag for residents.

  164. 164
    Martin says:

    @Judas Escargot: It varies. My son’s middle school seems to be on the upswing and I’ve seen an impressive amount of critical thinking across his subjects. The budget is largely to shit save for the massive amount of parent subsidization taking place, so I attribute that result to the specific efforts of the teachers that have been assembled there. Even the way that they have administratively structured things for the students is impressive in the degree to which they’re willing to change and adapt each year.

    But I think that’s anomalous, and it’s certainly not sustainable. There’s no way you can keep that kind of thing going because it’s only happening due to the incentives to enter the occupation that occurred back when these teachers started to teach, which no longer exist today. So you have a pipeline of teachers that you’ll be goddamn lucky to replace, and once you discover you scared off a lot of the people that should be teaching, it’ll be too late to fix the problem.

  165. 165
    MikeJ says:

    @Schlemizel: I assume clicking on their ad will 1) give you more info on them and b)xfer cash from their pockets to the guy that buys Tunch’s tuna.

  166. 166
    cckids says:

    @Judas Escargot: yes. It is the main reason we took our two youngest out & (don’t be horrified) home schooled them. From our experience, more & more homeschoolers are leaning left.

    The loudest & best organized are the crazy Xtianists, wanting to keep their kids safe from actual life. But many of them are defeating themselves, because they frequently give their kids a truly good classical education, with lots of thought-provoking books & courses. Once you’ve taught someone to look at facts & think for themselves in one subject, it gets hard to get them to shut that down when it comes to, say, science.

    You can get your middle or even high-schooler to tow your line via creationism, but many of them will have a “come to Jesus” (so to speak) moment when they look at the facts & make up their own minds. Brainwashing only works while someone is under your complete control.

  167. 167
    Schlemizel says:

    @MikeJ:
    Oh, thats not the issue – I was just wondering who was really writing the checks for Tunch’s kibble.

    I like to click on the winger ads knowing its probably $0.0003 to the kitty and out of available funds for their other rat fucking.

  168. 168
    Svensker says:

    @cckids:

    The loudest & best organized are the crazy Xtianists, wanting to keep their kids safe from actual life. But many of them are defeating themselves, because they frequently give their kids a truly good classical education, with lots of thought-provoking books & courses. Once you’ve taught someone to look at facts & think for themselves in one subject, it gets hard to get them to shut that down when it comes to, say, science.

    We knew a bunch of fundie kids whose parents were the “6000 year old Earth” types, but when the kids got to astronomy class and learned about something being 1million-light-years away, they all said, “wait, what? if that, then…???”

    It was very refreshing to hear those young thinkers.

  169. 169
    MikeJ says:

    @Schlemizel: As they say at Tesco, every little helps.

  170. 170
    Schlemizel says:

    @Svensker:
    Thats an easy one – the Earth is 6000 years old, God could have done those other things earlier if He wanted & the light has been traveling even before we got here.

  171. 171
    Kilkee says:

    @Davis X. Machina: Me too. Worcester born and bred, but with a bouncing Biddeford baby girl many years ago, and 30-odd years of residence since.

  172. 172
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Schlemizel:

    I had one tell me last year that the country was in trouble when they started putting science above Jesus!

    I’d really like to ask jackasses like that where in the Bible Jesus demands that his followers be ignorant to the point of mental deficiency.

  173. 173
    2liberal says:

    OT but i have to get this off my chest:

    Pittsburgh Mayor TEBOWs in defeat

    LINK

  174. 174
    Judas Escargot says:

    @cckids:

    yes. It is the main reason we took our two youngest out & (don’t be horrified) home schooled them. From our experience, more & more homeschoolers are leaning left.

    Fair enough: When I think ‘Homeschooled’ I automatically think ‘radical Christian’, because that’s been my experience.

    There’s enough synergy with the Christian Warrior/Quiverfull movements that I don’t think it will end well if current trends continue.

  175. 175
    Schlemizel says:

    @Citizen Alan:
    NO! THEY are the smart ones! Its those who have been duped by science that are the fools!

    I asked him how Jesus would handle polio, small pox and diabetes (since he is an insulin user). The conversation went down hill from there.

  176. 176
    Svensker says:

    @Schlemizel:

    Thats an easy one – the Earth is 6000 years old, God could have done those other things earlier if He wanted & the light has been traveling even before we got here.

    No. The Earth being 6000 years old is predicated on a 24-hour-day in the bible — i.e., when God created the world in 1 day, it was a literal 24 hour day, so the whole universe was created in one week 6000 years ago. Ain’t no room in that little universe for one million light years. The farthest away anything could be that we could see on earth would be 6000 light years.

  177. 177
    kindness says:

    Must be a bad day to be a front pager here at BJ. New threads are needed.

  178. 178
    chrome agnomen says:

    @ornery_curmudgeon:

    i had a political falling out with my wingtard brother. a mutual buddy tried to straighten in out, saying my brother was basically a do-no-harm kind of guy. i replied that a do-no-harm kind of guy does not vote republican. my brother is not unintelligent, just unable to think critically, question his beliefs, or see outside of his box. common failing on the right, among others.

  179. 179
    MikeJ says:

    @Svensker: It also neglects any time Adam and Eve might have spent in the garden before getting down to a little hey hey to get kicked out.

    If for some reason you couldn’t accept that the whole thing is an allegory, you could simply say they spent 4,500,000,000 years happily naming animals before they sinned.

  180. 180
    Redshift says:

    @Paul in KY:

    No way Pres. Obama takes SC, if the repub nominee is anyone saner than Alan Keyes.

    And your point is? ;-)

    I guess it’s arguable that about half of the current field are saner than Alan Keyes, or at least capable of acting the part.

  181. 181
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Calouste: Oooooh, it would be wonderful (for us Democrats) if Romney’s dumb enough to let Sununu keep running his mouth. Sununu’s the only person Larry Summers ever walked away from saying “Geez, what a smarmy self-important fat fvckstick that guy is” (not an exact quote, but close). Also, when a Lebanese-American (S) attacks a Jewish casino-operator (A), the Rapture-based portion of the wingnut voting base starts to side-eye the neocon portion, and that can only be Good News for President Obama.

  182. 182
    Calouste says:

    @Schlemizel:

    Jesus raised people from the dead. I guess he can cure polio, small pox and diabetes without breaking a sweat. Of course you could point out to these people how there’s a strong correlation over the centuries between life expectancy on one side and more science/less religion on the other side, but it would be like talking to a dinner table.

  183. 183
    Carl Nyberg says:

    My mother is an older voter who is basically progressive who has some claims to being a Dem and some to be independent, but rarely aligned herself with the GOP on much of anything.

    She spends too much time listening to NPR and watching cable news (mostly CNN). She’s a Wellesley grad from the same era as Hillary Rodhan Clinton and remains deeply bitter toward Obama for… winning.

    My mother is enamored with the idea that if the voters and the Democrats moved toward the GOP, the Republicans would be more reasonable on the issues.

    (Of course, my mother adds to her bitterness toward Obama that he did this on an issue she cares about, abortion rights.)

    The getting more by giving Republicans more at the table strategy seems plainly inconsistent with how Republicans operate. But older voters want to believe it’s true.

    I think we need progressive voices making the case for a progressive agenda without having to campaign for Obama’s re-election too.

    The whole situation is a mess.

  184. 184
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Carl Nyberg: There are plenty of voices making the case for a progressive agenda. They’re not going to be featured on NPR.

    As for his move right on abortion, he actually just stood still in regards to Plan B, and he made it less costly to get contrceptives under medical insurance.

  185. 185
    Anne Laurie says:

    @p.a.: That was our very own Davis X. Machina:

    “The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of who will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn’t even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it.”

    (It’s in the Lexicon, under “27% percenters”.)

  186. 186
    Hill Dweller says:

    @chrome agnomen: It isn’t about substance nor issues. Ultimately, it is tribalism.

    I’ve had the same problem with members of my own family. To a person, they are all highly educated, successful professionals, who are willfully ignorant when it comes to politics. I can factually rebut all their arguments(hell, I actually broke out charts over Christmas) til blue in the face, but it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference. Their entire self-identity seems to be wrapped up in being “conservative”, whatever the fuck that means.

  187. 187
    MikeJ says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    As for his move right on abortion, he actually just stood still in regards to Plan B, and he made it less costly to get contrceptives under medical insurance.

    You seem to forget that Obama’s administration made Plan B OTC in the first place. Yes, it’s not available for children under 17. It wouldn’t be available OTC for anyone had the Obama admin not approved it in July 2009.

  188. 188
    redshirt says:

    @Hill Dweller: Along these lines, I think it would be a great project to put together some bullet points for use with our relatives and friends to counteract all the lies and untruths regarding Obama, and to tout his successes. Something quick and easy.

    Any takers?

  189. 189
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @MikeJ: You are correct.

    My mom used to do this “Oh, you only got a 96” when I was a kid. It got really annoying.

  190. 190
    Hill Dweller says:

    @MikeJ:

    You seem to forget that Obama’s administration made Plan B OTC in the first place. Yes, it’s not available for children under 17. It wouldn’t be available OTC for anyone had the Obama admin not approved it in July 2009.

    He has also prevented Republicans from cutting all Planned Parenthood.

    It amazes me that someone can look at the current political landscape and claim Obama is the problem when it comes to women’s reproductive rights. The very first thing wingers did after taking control of a record number of state governments and legislatures last year was to go after women’s reproductive rights, which was soon followed by voting rights. That huge spike in anti-abortion legislation last year was engineered entirely by Republicans.

    Sometimes I think people just invent shit to avoid voting for Obama.

  191. 191
    SteveM says:

    @Carl Nyberg:

    I think we need progressive voices making the case for a progressive agenda without having to campaign for Obama’s re-election too.

    I’m for that. There’s more to politics than elections. Progressives blew it by demobilizing after November 2008 — there was a lot to fight for, both in sync with Obama and as part of an effort to push him (and/or the Overton window) to the left. But too many lefties think the formula is: Elect a miracle worker, kick back, if miracle worker fails to work miracles elect a new one, ad infinitum. Thus Nader in 2000 and lefty Paulism in 2012.

  192. 192
    bemused says:

    @Hill Dweller:

    There’s no question people definitely invent shit to avoid voting for Obama.

  193. 193
    Bill says:

    @gaz: Both are frauds. Newt is the more shameless fraud (hard to believe), because he really believes in his own greatness, and that, all evidence to the contrary, whatever he says or does is of world-historical import. He sees himself as the great manipulator of the system and of people for whom anything is justified since he is the indispensible man.

    Mitt is also a user and has a strong belief in his own destiny. He is also willing to endure any humiliation, to say or do whatever it takes to get the prize. But somewhere in the back of his mind is a little doubt, as if he knows what he’s saying is ridiculous and he feels a slight twinge of embarrassment about it. People can sense this and it makes him come across as a hollow man, inauthentic and fake.

    Newt has successfully banished those compunctions, if he ever had them, and now says the most outrageous things with utter confidence and the low information voter who has forgotten all the previous Gingrich sins sees a stalwart warrior for his cause.

  194. 194
    bemused says:

    Wingnut insanity has been over the top this week and it’s only Tues. Now Santorum again tries to fudge his racist remark, he said “plivs”, not “blah”. Hilarious. Sanctimonious Ricky not only has broken the 9th Commandment twice, but he botches up his second, even more pathetic, attempt. I can’t wait for his third try.

  195. 195
    grandpa john says:

    @Splitting Image: Living in SC I tend to agree, but I also think that the Mormon thing will come into play a lot more than the pundits think. they don ‘t live here , they don ‘t attend church here and they have no Idea of how people here in the Bible belt really think about religion. I do, I go to church with them and a lot of the them will have a tough time pulling the lever for some one they think belongs to a cult, not a religion. This does’t mean that they will vote for Obama, but they might just stay home and not vote

  196. 196

    Regarding the lateness of the Bain attacks. Sure, Bain has been hanging there for years, but there are issues for a GOPer going after it.

    In order for a GOPer to attack Bain they come at Romney from the “left” which is (putting it mildly) foreign ground.

    Using Bain is using the Admin’s strategy for the GE.

    Those two pieces are strong disincentives for making that attack. You could add in –

    Hitting Romney on this means hitting the plutocracy at large, and that isn’t even done on the “D” side except out of desperation. You’re going to hear it from the Admin because things are desperate. The economy in molasses wasn’t supposed to happen and neither was ’10 so Mittens actually can look competitive – this far out.

  197. 197
    dollared says:

    @Anne Laurie: Isn’t that exactly the description of all the noncoms in gray uniforms in the Civil War?

  198. 198

    @bemused:

    Plivs is the new blah.

    Christ, we’re living in a post-language world of politics.

  199. 199
    Schlemizel says:

    @Svensker:
    Now you’re just being logical, that is never going to win the debate!

    @Calouste:
    Its possible someone might have suggested the guy put Jesus above science, give up the insulin & pray away the disease. But, that would be insensitive. As I said the conversation sort of went down hill.

  200. 200
    Nellcote says:

    @The Other Chuck:

    Christ, we’re living in a post-language world of politics.

    Considering the goopers have been systematicaly deforming the english language, it’s the logical next step.

  201. 201
    scav says:

    @The Other Chuck: Campaigning in Tongues. Sure to be Snake-handling by the next primary.

  202. 202
    gaz says:

    @Bill: I *know* they’re both frauds. Basically, the fact that they are frauds means they each had a much greater chance to win the nom than any of the “true believers”.

    That was part of my point, in fact.

  203. 203
    Paul in KY says:

    @redshirt: Have you maybe seen Roland Deschain lurking around anywhere up there?

  204. 204
    Paul in KY says:

    @Redshift: Now don’t go shortchanging Alan’s amount of crazeee. Ron Paul is Walter Cronkite, compared to Alan Keyes.

  205. 205
    Paul in KY says:

    @Carl Nyberg: Haven’t you been able to show her that Pres. Obama has tried that multiple times & they still just keep nutting on?

    Best of luck.

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