So much for the “job destroyer” line. Mitt only got, what, 48 hours out of that attack?
6.
lol
It’s all thanks to the job creation programs passed by the Republican Congress.
7.
El Cid
@Dave: So far, I don’t see any reason why he should stop saying it, because who cares if it’s true or not? That doesn’t usually bother the GOP, unless by some odd chance it elicits the rare widespread public revulsion.
8.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
The Republican line will be: Thanks to us, the President wasn’t able to spend money we didn’t have, which would have weakened the economy and prevented these jobs from being created. I know at least two people here, where I work, who believe that to be true.
9.
GregB
I was just reading some FaceBook posts from a resident wingnut buddy.
They all seemed to be settling in on a Mitt Romney nomination and vowed to hold their nose and vote.
Such talk is music to my ears. They are already depressed.
10.
EconWatcher
If it keeps moving in the right direction, even very slowly, Obama should be a shoo-in. But it seems like the chances of the Dems ending up with both chambers are slim to none. And what can he do without Congress–except take the blame for things he can’t control? Sigh.
11.
Trurl
The real un- and under-employment rate is close to 20%.
This would be fun if it goes anywhere, and especially as it might not be such an accident.
DES MOINES, Iowa — Caucus night was chaotic in many places, with hundreds of voters, candidates showing up and the throngs of media who followed. The world’s eyes were on Iowa. But in the quiet town of Moulton, Appanoose County, a caucus of 53 people may just blow up the results.
__
Edward True, 28, of Moulton, said he helped count the votes and jotted the results down on a piece of paper to post to his Facebook page. He said when he checked to make sure the Republican Party of Iowa got the count right, he said he was shocked to find they hadn’t.
__
“When Mitt Romney won Iowa by eight votes and I’ve got a 20-vote discrepancy here, that right there says Rick Santorum won Iowa,” True said. “Not Mitt Romney.”
__
True said at his 53-person caucus at the Garrett Memorial Library, Romney received two votes. According to the Iowa Republican Party’s website, True’s precinct cast 22 votes for Romney.
__
“This is huge,” True said. “It essentially changes who won.”
__
A spokeswoman with the Iowa Republican Party said True is not a precinct captain and he’s not a county chairperson so he has no business talking about election results. She also said the party would not be giving interviews about possible discrepancies until the caucus vote is certified.
With a mere 8 vote margin, it’d be bizarre if such claims didn’t appear, and this would be so in any voting system, much less the caucus type.
For all the talk from the right about voter fraud, I find it amusing who is involved when actual voter fraud occurs…
19.
El Cid
@4tehlulz: Is there a Kenyan watermark on the paper he supposedly used to jot this highly top secret classified information down for unauthorized seditious Facebook disclosure?
A spokeswoman with the Iowa Republican Party said True is not a precinct captain and he’s not a county chairperson so he has no business talking about election results. She also said the party would not be giving interviews about possible discrepancies until the caucus vote is certified.
Shorter Iowa Republican Party: Who ya gonna believe, honey, me or your lyin’ eyes?
22.
Schlemizel
@EconWatcher:
GIven the problems he had doing anything done for the 2 years Dems controlled both houses I’d say we are in for another 4 years of roadblocks, delays, half-measures and circling the drain. The situation is,sadly, that is the best we can do. Sure it will destroy America, just not as fast as if there is one of the bozo patrol in the White House. I think we all saw how fast and how extreme the damage was the wingnuts had all three, we can’t let that ever happen again.
We have to hope that recent global warming events are aberrations and it is not going to run away, that China screws up at least enough to not dominate the world and that the poor can hang on with moldy crumbs while we as a nation twiddle our thumbs. Eventually enough people will awake to reality and sanity will be restored, maybe.
23.
rob!
That sound you hear is the entire Republican Party hearing we ADDED jobs and exclaiming, “Damn!”
A spokeswoman with the Iowa Republican Party said True is not a precinct captain and he’s not a county chairperson so he has no business talking about election results. She also said the party would not be giving interviews about possible discrepancies until the caucus vote is certified.
Did he show his Voter ID (r)? Did the GOP fraud-squad OK this whole caucus idea?
I mean, really, they should cancel such a messy and fraud-prone system and just use some sort of poll-based projection-thingy so that the people will have their wishes tabulated (by Diebold, naturally) without the muss of actually leaving home, sitting in a library, and writing things down on unreliable things like paper.
Seriously, though, the GOP is of course the party of Diebold, paperless voting, spreadsheets of 8,000 votes found in a Waukesha briefcase, etc., so it should be no surprise if some of the Iowa caucus results are as crooked as Dick Nixon.
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
IIRC we would need 50 seats to take the House & that is a bit of a hill to climb (I am hoping that Willard will depress the turn out enough that it happens but I have never been an optimist).
As a Pessimist my big fear is that there are a lot more Dem Senate incumbent seats the GOP ones and we can’t afford to lose a single one.
27.
RalfW
@EconWatcher: Both of those articles were written before the payroll tax extension debacle (episode II coming soon!) and before the new jobs numbers.
I have no doubt that getting Nancy Pelosi back in possession of the gavel will be difficult. But I think the ongoing Klown Kar/freakshow is eroding the beltway conventional wisdom from those RCP items.
28.
jibeaux
Well, did anyone see any pictures of the actual caucus voting? It’s like a hundred white guys sticking slips of paper in a fucking bucket. It looks like a damn Elks Lodge Secret Santa name draw.
@PeakVT: If we end up with a 50/50 Congress, we damn well better hold the WH. Biden’s years of Senate life could come in very handy.
The 4 tossups make the 50/50 look iffy. In fact holding the Senate could be iffy. It would be quite the eye-opening circus if we had narrow GOP majorities in both ends of Congress and a blackity black Democrat for president.
And by eye opening circus, I mean bad for the American people during the two years of unbridled nuttery/impeachment/chaos.
Well, did anyone see any pictures of the actual caucus voting? It’s like a hundred white guys sticking slips of paper in a fucking bucket. It looks like a damn Elks Lodge Secret Santa name draw.
You made my morning! 8D
34.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Hate to buzzkill the employment numbers, but…
We know the GOP wants to cut public sector jobs with good pay and benefits and replace them with private sector jobs with low pay/benefits, right?
We’ve seen a drop in public sector jobs and a rise in private sector jobs.
How do we know these new jobs being added aren’t the low pay/low benefit kind preferred by the GOP?
In other words, absent more information, is it possible we are celebrating a GOP victory? And giving Obama credit for a GOP victory???
Now, I don’t know if this is the case, but shouldn’t we know more before we decide if it’s good news or not?
35.
CT Voter
I get it. These good job numbers are exactly what Republicans wanted! Good grief.
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Adding jobs (above the current population growth requirement of about 100k) is undoubtedly good news. The quality of the jobs matters in the long run, but with unemployment as high as it is, I think it would be a stretch to find bad news in this report.
@RalfW: I agree it’s iffy, but my non-expert opinion is that it will be a mildly positive year for the Democrats, despite a less than great economy. So I think the Dems will retain control despite having so many seats up for grabs.
38.
balconesfault
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: How do we know these new jobs being added aren’t the low pay/low benefit kind preferred by the GOP?
Well – they are jobs. Which means that a couple hundred thousand people who were sitting around worrying about if they’d be able to find work now have some. And the Gov’t needs to write 200,000 less unemployment or welfare checks next month.
Both preconditions for the growth of a healthy economy that will support high pay/high benefit jobs. Those won’t start coming back until the slack is gone.
Obama has done everything he could to keep public sector jobs up. At some point, if GOP led state governments want to take out the broadsword rather than pay for them, there’s little to be done.
39.
The Moar You Know
Got to listen to the morning drive “reasonable” Republican douche in Los Angeles choke on this, and then interview some local Orange County religious guy (not Rick Warren) who first insinuated that Obama was a seekrit Muslim, and then doubled down by saying that Mitt Romney wasn’t a Christian either.
I was not aware you could hear a man tear his hair out over the air until today.
40.
huckster
Democrats need only 25 seats to flip the house. This seems entirely doable to me.
41.
RossInDetroit
The jobs picture would be even better if the public sector wasn’t shedding jobs as the private sector adds them. State, county and local governments are still ‘in recession’ as far as employment goes. This is largely due to reduced tax revenues.
42.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
“Well – they are jobs. Which means that a couple hundred thousand people who were sitting around worrying about if they’d be able to find work now have some. And the Gov’t needs to write 200,000 less unemployment or welfare checks next month.”
This is exactly what I am talking about. This is a classic GOP victory, if true.
Less on government dole, more working as Walmart greeters, part time, with no benefits. I need to know more before celebrating.
Well, did anyone see any pictures of the actual caucus voting? It’s like a hundred white guys sticking slips of paper in a fucking bucket. It looks like a damn Elks Lodge Secret Santa name draw.
Iowa is the short bus that leads the Clown Car Fail Parade.
45.
Poopyman
The key to the Dems picking up House seats and retaining the Senate is to depress the Republican vote. I.e., make them so depressed that they won’t bother showing up at the polls. So far things are going OK, but I fear that once the professional Democrats actually take action along these lines it’ll boomerang on them and blow up in their faces. Maybe I’m being too harsh on the pros, but their track record is, shall we say, a little weak.
46.
handsmile
Belafon/EconWatcher/Schlemizel/RalfW/PeakVT:
I’ll write it again today (and probably many days hereafter): the real battle and greatest challenge for the Democratic Party in the national 2012 election cycle will be to retain majority control of the Senate. (Implicit in this statement, of course, is my belief that barring a domestic catastrophe President Obama will be reelected.)
If the Republicans gain the Senate majority (holding the House as well), they will effectively control two of the three branches of the US government. Because the grand prize this year is the Supreme Court. Justice Ginsburg almost certainly will resign within the next four years; possibly Justices Breyer and Kennedy as well. A US Senate led by the GOP, assisted by conservative Democrats, could dictate that only jurists as radically conservative as John Yoo or Janice Rogers Brown would gain its approval for a Supreme Court seat, crippling Obama’s selection of nominees.
I don’t mean to be tiresome or Cassandra-like on this matter, but it is the scenario I find most frightening. President Obama’s coattails are going to have to be titanium (or perhaps graphene) clad this fall.
PeakVT: Thanks for assembling that useful chart on Senate races. (First time visiting your own website as well.) For the most part, I concur with your assessments, though I have greater reservations about the reelection prospect of Nelson (FL) and the open seat in New Mexico.
47.
Poopyman
@AxelFoley: All those hospice workers out of work!
Nice ad hom. Meanwhile, I simply asked a question. Care to tell me why the question is not a legitimate one? Or should we simply stop at superficiality when it serves Obama’s interests? Let me know.
And of course you would have the negative take on this. You’d find the negative if President Obama cured cancer.
All those poor researchers put out of work. Fundraisers left out in the cold. What a heartless President…
50.
RP
Hate to buzzkill the employment numbers, but…
I’ve decided that the Democrats’ version of the 11th Commandment is “thou shalt not acknowledge any good news, especially if it comes during a Democratic Administration.”
51.
Kane
The Republican talking points claiming that the Obama adminstration is holding back the private-sector and expanding BIG governemnt are nothing more than myths.
52.
jl
Some good news on on the jobs front. Hurray!
IMHO, I think this is due to increase in manufacturing which in turn is a lagged effect of recent episode of dollar devaluation relative to currencies of major trading partners that started after the recovery began.
So next time you hear some gazillionaire entertainment star back from a foreign road show on late night TV complaining how expensive everything is overseas, or GOP goldnut fetishists complaining about the destruction of the value US currency, ignore them and hope for more devaluation.
Problem is that European currency troubles have produced recent increases in value of dollar against Euro and some other trading partner currencies (I don’t know enough about currency markets to understand why Euro troubles should affect exchange rate of dollar on East and South Asian and Latin American markets, but there has been a recent rise).
European currency troubles are exacerbated by US style Washington Consensus Very Serious People who run financial side of Europe, and Germans, who have always been that way, which was OK when they were only responsible for their own country. But now they have a big impact, and big responsibility, for maintaining a currency union, so now it is not OK.
I don’t think dollar devaluation is good for Wall St profits, so there will be attempt to reverse declines, but not sure. Any finance people here know? On other hand, I think that keeping borrowing costs low, and inflation very low is more important for the rentier sector (bascially the too big to fail financial sector) and will have higher priority.
I will check back for any opinions from finance and currency exchange mavens lurking here.
And the Gov’t needs to write 200,000 less unemployment or welfare checks next month.
Well, they’ve been writing fewer checks for quite a while now — people can still be unemployed but fall off the benefits rolls if their state wasn’t in the group of very high unemployment and in some cases even if the state had high numbers of unemployed people if the numbers fell below a cut-off point. Also, just because you were unemployed and aged out of unemployment benefits, you might not be able to get cash assistance or general relief (it’s not called welfare anymore). If you owned your home or a co-op, you had assets that kept you from getting aid. (I live in a NON-PROFIT co-op and I couldn’t get cash assistance because I had an asset I could possibly sell. Didn’t matter that I could only sell it back to the corporation for a minimal amount of money… it was an asset I could sell!)
Districts who elected tea-bagging freshmen might be suffering from a case of buyer’s regret…
55.
superluminar
@AxelFoley
But…but…that’s just what the GOP wants! If Barry cures cancer then fewer elderly Repub voters will die, thus handing them Victory in the elections! Wake up sheeple!!!
56.
Poopyman
@handsmile: Hey Cassandra, don’t forget about the inevitable impeachment. Not likely to clear the two-thirds hurdle, but Republicans don’t care about a conviction so much as the damage an impeachment does politically.
Of course, after the Clinton debacle I doubt the general population sees it the way it was viewed prior to 1992. Won’t stop the thugs, of course.
57.
Lawnguylander
Hate to buzzkill the employment numbers,
Sure you do. Just like I hate to be the one to tell you that we’re going to repeal the 22nd Amendment. I’d say 5 terms for Obama is a pretty safe bet. Then a couple for Michelle until one of the girls is ready to take over. Which one of the little cuties do you think will be #46?
58.
Davis X. Machina
@RP: True on the left, generally but mostly for not-Democrats. A lot of them are still waiting for the announcement that property is, in fact, theft, as promised by Obama on the campaign trail.
My entire premise questions whether this actually IS good news. It’s a legitimate point. If we dig deeper than merely surface level and find there is reason to celebrate, I’d be very happy to do so. I don’t KNOW enough to determine if this is cause for celebrating or not. I hope it is. I would be very happy if that were proven to be the case. I just don’t know and neither does anyone else in here.
60.
Kane
The economy is rebounding, and all in the face of republican obstruction. Just imagine where we would be if republicans had put country before party.
61.
Schlemizel
@huckster:
You are right – the GOP holds a 50 seat edge so if we can flip 26 the Dems would have a 2 seat edge. Thats what I get for not thinking the math through – thanks
26 does seem doable. Gotta hope
62.
balconesfault
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Less on government dole, more working as Walmart greeters, part time, with no benefits. I need to know more before celebrating.
Sorry – while I want to see more creation of solid middle class jobs, there is a cycle of despair that comes from sitting around just waiting for the next gov’t check to come in the mail while job rejection after job rejection fill your mailbox.
Someone with a job is building a resume, getting connections, and feeling useful, even in some small way. Life sucks for someone who hasn’t had a job in months – it sucks the soul away, even as you realize that it’s not your fault.
But the biggest key, as I said before, is slack in the labor force disappearing. When we start getting down closer to 6% eventually, there will be the kind of competition for even unskilled labor that drives up benefits and wages.
63.
flukebucket
For the 200,000 who got the jobs I can guarantee you it is good news.
But I thought that’s what concern trolls do 4 lulz?
65.
RP
It’s a legitimate point.
No, it’s not. OF COURSE many of those jobs are low paying and don’t have great benefits, and OF COURSE the country would be in much better shape if we weren’t shedding so many public sector jobs. Those points are obvious. But adding jobs and reducing unemployment is inherently a good thing, especially for the people who can go back to work. And it’s not part of some super double-secret plan by the GOP.
66.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
What’s amazing is I’m not even talking about Obama or blaming him for anything. This isn’t an Obama criticism. Yet the paranoid, defend-Obama-at-all-costs brigade can’t help themselves. Jesus…..
Apparently, we can’t ask for more information before making a judgement in here…..
Sad, actually….
67.
Culture of Truth
U.S. Jobless Rate Drops to Lowest Level Since February 2009
but… but… Huffington Post says that doesn’t matter, because if the workforce was the same size as it was in 2009, unemployment would be over 10%!!!!
And if the workforce was the same size as it was in 1980, unemployment would be like 20% or something!!! (see what I did there, HuffPo?)
Sheesh.
69.
Culture of Truth
Jobs
Since Start of Recession (Dec. 2007) – MINUS 6,083,000
Since President Obama Took Office – MINUS 937,000
Jan – Dec. 2011 – PLUS 1,640,000
70.
CT Voter
@RP: I disagree. Dems will celebrate this as good news. The media, though, will dissect these numbers, discuss the underemployment rate (never mentioned with an R in office), and commenters will point out how these good job numbers are actually a classic GOP victory.
Against that cacophony of negativity, it’s actually pretty astounding that the president’s approval ratings aren’t further in the toilet.
Sure – it might be better news. But it’s still good news in any case (unless the people were forced to take jobs at gunpoint).
I can see you reading about 100 people saved from a sinking ship, and asking “sure, but how many of them have cancer?”
72.
Kane
For three years we have been told that Obama’s re-election prospects hinge entirely on the economy, but if the economy continues to improve the media may have to rethink their narrative.
73.
Culture of Truth
This could be really bad news. Who can say? No one really knows!
74.
Veritas
Obambi still has the worst job creation record of any President in history.
This is a little dead cat bounce, due mostly to temporary holiday jobs that will be toast next month. Combined with the continuing Euro crisis and weakness in Asia and uncertainty over Obamacare, things are setting up nicely for a dead cat bounce followed by a double-dip.
Try YEARS. I’m out THREE years and counting. And I had NO responses to resumes and applications made. I’m existing on help from relatives. It’s not fun asking for help from your siblings.
76.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@lonesomerobot: And if we were all poor, and our children were having to beg for jobs as well, the unemployment rate would really be closer to 50%, so it all just sucks.
Well, yeah, I’ve read stats that say the new jobs pay less on average than the old ones, even in the manufacturing sector.
And yeah, GOP and Democratic VSP corporatists have put in place policies that will continue to erode middle class and create more hurdles for working class and poor.
And, these numbers are not still not good at all, crappy actually, compared to average post war recovery, and particularly compared to Clinton years.
But, still good news considering above, and we should hope and pray for more over next nine months, since the jobs market will make a big difference in the election. And only an election can change a lot of the bad stuff mentioned above.
79.
The Moar You Know
@Kola Noscopy: Wondered where you went after yesterday.
Compare private sector job creation so far under Obama with the net private sector job creation during the entire Bush administration and get back to us.
81.
RP
@CT Voter: Many Dems will celebrate this, but it’s not going to get nearly the attention it deserves on leftwing websites or from the few liberal pundits in the media. Look at the departure from Iraq.
My snarkometer may be malfunctioning while reading your reply, but an Obama impeachment effort seems too speculative for alarm.
The relative economic prosperity of the Clinton presidency ironically enabled the grotesque carnival of those impeachment proceedings to unfold. In these economic parlous times, such shenanigans would not be tolerated (apparently I still retain some populist naivete).
The Supreme Court situation, on the other hand, is anything but speculative. What another far-right Justice could do to destroy this country is a terrible and all too plausible prospect. That John Roberts is likely to be chief justice of the Court for the rest of my lifetime is horrible enough.
85.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Seriously, so many complete assholes in here…..
You literally can’t ask for more information before having an opinion, if on the surface it looks good for Obama. That’s fucking pathetic, actually. I’m not even saying it ISN’T good news. All I did was ask for more information. And that was enough to get ripped to shreds by some in here. Fucking ridiculous.
Reminds me of this mindset:
Wingnut: See, I told you they found WMD’s in Iraq! Go Bush!
Liberal: um, but those were antiquated, already destroyed weapons from a decade ago
Wingnut: you just hate america
Seconded. Note in graph at link that employment gains better after recovery from deepest post WWII recession under Obama, than after piddly little GW Bush recession in 2001.
Don’t try to talk sense into ObambiBots, FUIB. If they see even the slightest thing that may benefit their Lord and Savior, they’ll jump all over it, and snap angrily at fair-minded and rational observers that attempt to point out the truth.
We have to hope that recent global warming events are aberrations and it is not going to run away, that China screws up at least enough to not dominate the world and that the poor can hang on with moldy crumbs while we as a nation twiddle our thumbs. Eventually enough people will awake to reality and sanity will be restored, maybe.
Enough liberal demographics (i.e. especially Hispanics) will continue to grow and opposition to the conservative base will be enough to keep them liberal, that we can actually start electing people who believe in a functional government and in using it to solve the nation’s problems, you mean. Maybe.
And then you have to hope that we manage to pry power from the conservatives’ hands without a backlash that ruins the country. They’re already into the vote-suppressing business, and they’re only going to get more desperate if the number of liberal voters goes up.
Shorter Fed Up in Brooklyn: I can’t be bothered to actually look up answers to any of the questions I’m asking, so I’m just going to assume it must be bad news.
ETA:
You literally can’t ask for more information before having an opinion, if on the surface it looks good for Obama.
And you need someone else to spoon-feed that information to you because … ?
Not really paying attention, but is this another of the threads that has devolved into a bunch of unconvincing K-Tel ads congratulating each other on their feeble attempts at believing their own pay-per-view BS? Saw enough of the usual suspects on the fast scrollby. It’s like an AI petri-dish in here.
96.
PurpleGirl
@WaterGirl: Yes, I am interested. Thank you for your response.
I disagree with you about Lugar — the Tea Partiers in Indiana are champing at the bit to get rid of him and put a “real” Republican in his seat. Given the quality of the senatorial candidates the Tea Party has championed (Angle, O’Donnell, etc.) I don’t know that you can say for sure that a Republican would keep that seat.
98.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
I have a friend who was unemployed for a while, collecting a lousy $365/week in UI benefits, while living in NYC. You can’t survive in NYC on that little amount of money. So she was FORCED to take a $600/week job she hated, with no benefits, which had her working 16 hours a day. She was miserable. It was awful. But she took it out of desperation. She didn’t celebrate that job, nor think it was good news. She hated it. It was awful. But she HAD to take it, in order to tread fucking water for a few more weeks.
She used to have a high paying job she loved, with full benefits and a retirement plan.
Personally, I find it hard to celebrate that situation. Of course, it could have been worse. She could have had no job offer at all. I get that. But a shitty thing isn’t suddenly worth celebrating because it could have been worse in my opinion.
I didn’t assume it was bad news. Jesus fucking Christ. I asked the question. IS IT GOOD NEWS? Do we know enough information? Again, I would love to celebrate this information. I would love to give a standing ovation to Obama if it is as good as it looks on the SURFACE. I just don’t know. Why is that such a horrifying position to take?
And honestly, I have no idea where to start looking for that info, which is why I asked the question. Apologies for asking a question. Clearly, I deserve much wrath….
101.
JPL
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: I agree that not all jobs are created equally but if the economy keeps improving there will be better opportunities. This has nothing to do with being an obat. If the numbers were worse, what would you say?
102.
Omnes Omnibus
@ Fed Up: Several people answered you with opinions as to why, at least in their opinions, this is good, if not great, news. You have chosen not to acknowledge those responses and focus instead on those suspect your motives. If you actually want a dialogue, you might consider interacting with those who posted a substantive answer to your question. Or you could act like a dick with ears. It’s up to you.
103.
dww44
@rob!: Or, you can do as CNBC just did. Had Hilda Solis on for a brief interview on the good jobs news, immediately followed by a live interview with Sen. Bob Corker from Tenn that was a LOT longer about how the President gets no credit for the positive jobs report. It’s thanks to the, wait for it, PRIVATE SECTOR.
Of course, no pundit at CNBC dares to take him to task. They just let his views stand. The MSM is bound and determined to return all the levers of power to the GOP. This is why the outlook is so dim for the Congress. The only way that changes if we fight for it out here where we live and if we take every opportunity to challenge the MSM pro GOP meme. Which I just did at the CNBC website. But, I don’t twitter or text, so email was my only option.
104.
japa21
It isn’t a question of whether or not this is good news, pretty indisputable that it is. Also indisputable is that it still is a long ways to go, so it isn’t great news.
Of course, people who see it as good news must be Obamabots, or whatever. They can’t possibly be thinking this is good news for the country because it shows some positive movement in the recovery. Or they can’t possibly think it is great news because these new jobs have signficant meaning for those that were out of work and are now employed. And they can’t possibly think it is good news because along with other indicators, there is real reason for optimism. No, the only reason they believe it is good news is because it may be good for Obama’s reelection chances. After all, we Obamabots don’t really care baout other people or the country. Only what is good for our Lord and Master.
Click on the first two links under the heading “Get a Resume”.
I hired a number of people for my group when I worked at the university, so I know from personal experience that it can take less than a minute to decide which pile a person’s application goes into.
I don’t do this for a living, but I have helped a number of friends and relatives with resumes and cover letters, and I would be glad to take a look at yours if you think that would be helpful. I know from experience how un-fun it is to work on your resume and cover letters, so it can be less bad if you have someone on your side helping you. Let me know. (I won’t be at all offended if you don’t take me up on my offer.)
106.
ruemara
I posted this article to FB, had it shared by someone who thanked me because he felt he was the only one finding anything good to say about the Prez amoungst his liberal friends. Within 3 hours of his post, the first comment was someone saying that while she can recognize good policy, she was sick and tired of being told things like this because it did not detract from his failings and besides it was just free trade agreements that improved exports which was costing US jobs. So I tossed in this jobs report to the thread. I see that the theme of the day for the perpetually disappointed is “But how do we really know this is good news” and “I’m not even talking about Obama, I’m talking about his failings. DON’T SILENCE ME!” I suppose if we’re not fighting over a nomination, we have to fight over the actual party rep, in a year when we should be united and focused on Senate/House races. Good god, I can’t stand people.
Whatever the numbers were, I’d want more information before making a judgement. Again, I would be very happy to celebrate this and give Obama a standing ovation. I just need more information first. Why this is so outrageous is beyond my comprehension…..
Funny how you guys are now the victims in this little argument. I asked a simple question, got ripped to shreds and now you are the victims. lol. Classic.
My entire premise questions whether this actually IS good news. It’s a legitimate point.
It’s really not. A net gain of 200,000 jobs (that’s 212,000 new private sector jobs minus 12,000 lost public sector jobs) can’t be spun as anything other than “200,000 people who didn’t have jobs before last month now have jobs.” Well, it can be, but you have to really want to push an agenda to do it.
Personally, I find it hard to celebrate that situation. Of course, it could have been worse. She could have had no job offer at all. I get that. But a shitty thing isn’t suddenly worth celebrating because it could have been worse in my opinion.
A shitty thing that’s better than the alternative is still, you know, a better thing, unless, again, you have an agenda to push.
lol. Yes, I’m the dick. Ask a simple question, get ripped to shreds, defend myself = I’m the dick. Got it. Makes perfect sense.
Meanwhile, those offering answers as to why it’s good news regardless are still making assumptions based on a lack of information. There are numerous reasons why these numbers may not be good. There are numerous reasons why they could be good, or even great. We just don’t know enough. That’s my point.
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: I have a friend who was unemployed for a while, collecting a lousy $365/week in UI benefits, while living in NYC. You can’t survive in NYC on that little amount of money. So she was FORCED to take a $600/week job she hated, with no benefits, which had her working 16 hours a day. She was miserable. It was awful. But she took it out of desperation. She didn’t celebrate that job, nor think it was good news. She hated it. It was awful. But she HAD to take it, in order to tread fucking water for a few more weeks.
Which is, by my assessment, better than going underwater, coming home to find the landlord has put your stuff on the curb and padlocked the door, going without food for days, etc.
Or, I guess, moving to somewhere where you can scrape by on $365 a week.
Nobody is saying this is proof that we’re finished needing more stimulus, in particular. But it’s still in and of itself good news.
115.
WaterGirl
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: So if the headline had said “Another 200,000 jobs lost”, would you be thinking that might be a good thing, because surely some of the people in those jobs had wished they had a better job in the first place?
Sorry to hear about your friend, but that’s irrelevant to the good news of accelerating job creation. Eventually, a stronger job market will hopefully put her in a better negotiating position, but it will take a while.
The PPACA – once fully implemented two years from now – will also put her in a MUCH better negotiating position – as she won’t be nearly as dependent on staying in an underpaid job with poor benefits that is a poor fit for her.
The payroll tax cut should also put some more money in her pocket each month, so lets all help the President and democrats in congress get that renewed for the full year.
And let’s pray to God that the republicans don’t take control of congress and the white house this fall – since they’ve vowed to raise taxes on your friend, give the money to millionaires and further cut services that economically vulnerable people like your friend depend upon!
Yes, because people who aren’t assuming it was automatically bad news always start their comment with:
Hate to buzzkill the employment numbers, but…
And, yes, it sucks that your friend couldn’t find a better job after being on unemployment for so long, but your anecdote seem to imply that she would have been better off staying on unemployment than taking the job that she did. Is that actually how she feels?
(And I make about $600 a week in Los Angeles, so thanks for implying that it’s poverty-level wages that no one could possibly survive on in an expensive urban area. Though I do at least get good benefits.)
Enjoy your meaningless pie-eating comments from now on.
119.
fasteddie9318
OK, since 200,000 fewer people scrambling to survive without jobs is now being defined as Something That Might Be OK, Or Really Terrible, Depending, I Just Don’t Know, can somebody please give me an example of something that could happen that would just be a Good Thing, unambiguously?
@ Fed Up: Would you rather see these people unemployed? Improvement has to start somewhere. Generally, shitty jobs are better than none. Good jobs are better than shitty. Great are better than good.
My other point stands. You chose to react to the attacks and not interact with the responses. It creates a cycle. It also reinforces suspicions that you are here to pick fights. YMMV.
124.
ruemara
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Your friend should shut it. Sorry, but my dp has been unemployed now for nearly 4 years. I haven’t had a job that payed $600 a week in nearly a decade. I sympathize about doing things you hate, or working super long hours, but I work a writing gig for a better price on food, scrounge for freelance design, take jewelry commissions and work on film and game projects for free in the hope of something striking. It’s been so long since I’ve seen a freaking grand every 2 weeks, I think the last time I was a middle class person was just a dream and if my partner had that $600 a week job, I think we’d crack open the champagne.
@PurpleGirl: I’m going to say what no one will say. Forget the resume. Seriously. Get out and meet people. Hit trade associations, make sure you talk to every contact on your list at least 2x a month. Networking groups, hiring fairs, etc. Meet people and make sure everyone you know understands that you are looking for work. Do not let that drop. I know what you’re going through, and I’ve been watching my partner go through it and he’s stuck in the cycle of creating resumes and waiting for someone to notice him. If it has not worked in 3 years, it is time to change tactics. He won’t hear it and it’s to his detriment. I can’t tell you how sorry I am you’re going down this road, don’t know if it helps that you have a lot of company. Best of luck
@PurpleGirl: Are you doing volunteer work, PurpleGirl? I know doing work for free is not ideal, but it’s a good way to keep active in the community, possibly build networks, and keep your skills alive. And if you’re working with an organization that places a lot of value on its volunteers, they may even offer some more direct help in getting you where you want to go, career-wise.
126.
balconesfault
Japa21:
It isn’t a question of whether or not this is good news, pretty indisputable that it is. Also indisputable is that it still is a long ways to go, so it isn’t great news.
Jesus… buzzkill means to halt the celebration. Doesn’t mean I am assuming the news MUST be bad. Merely questioning whether we know enough yet to celebrate. Learn to comprehend. So fucking paranoid, it’s amazing….
Doesn’t matter if the Dems don’t have a credible candidate to run against him. In my district, Alan Nunnelee is a freshman Repuke who voted for Medicare waivers and wants to raise taxes on the bottom 95%. He will more than likely run unopposed because of the grotesque multigenerational helplessness of the state Dems.
PeakVT may choose to address this as well, but Lugar’s primary challenger, Indiana state treasurer and Tea Party fave Richard Mourdock is not an Angle or O’Donnell. He served as an Indiana state representative and longtime county official before his election as treasurer in 2006. He enjoys state-wide recognition and approval. Whether enough to dislodge Lugar….
The Democratic challenger is US Representative Joe Donnelly who is seeking this Senate seat primarily because his own congressional district has been reconfigured unfavorably for reelection. (A scenario that persuaded Barney Frank not to seek reelection.)
In 2006, Lugar was reelected with 87% of votes cast, with no Democratic opponent. Whether Lugar or Mourdock, Indiana will be represented by two Republican senators (Dan Coats being the other) in the 113th Congress.
LOL…. ah yes, once again. I ask a question, get creamed from all sides with numerous sarcastic, nasty comments and when I respond in kind, I’M THE ASSHOLE! Brilliant!
@Mnemosyne: It’s certainly possible that primary voters would dump Lugar. But polling is thin, so I went with the incumbent. It’s Indiana, and unless Daniels fucks up a lot more, any R would still be a heavy favorite. And the leading contender right now has won statewide office.
ETA: Or, what handsmile said.
133.
balconesfault
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Your question was answered in a dozen coherent ways … and you chose to not engage those responses cogently, but rather dove immediately into victim mode.
Yes, we’ve been reduced to ripping our fellow victims because we have it worse than them. Perfect. Why not just build a new Roman Coliseum, so we can literally rip each other to shreds while the criminals who caused this mess watch from the rafters.
My friend struggled and fought for many years, barely scraping by in a very competitive field in order to make a good career for herself. That career was torn away from her and she was reduced to working at a job she hates for shitty money and no benefits in NYC. $600/week in NYC is shitty money, fyi. But because you have had it worse, she should just “shut it.” Brilliant. This is where we are now.
136.
Danny
I’m gonna have to wait for more information, but could this be good news for John McCain? Just asking questions here – don’t shoot the messenger!
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Yeah, she should. I worked hard in a very competitive field, got sick and lost. I have also worked for low pay and no bennies in NYC. She is doing a hell of a lot better than people with NO JOB. This the fact that is lost on you and her. It is better to not have NO WORK, NO PAY. God, do you live in a vacuum? You think I’m ripping her because I know that it’s better to have an income than to be sitting in her apartment wondering when she’ll be heading to a shelter? Jesus Christ. 1. Move to Brooklyn. 2. Working is better than dying.
139.
fasteddie9318
@Danny: How long before Big Marijuana puts all the little mom and pop weed shops out of business in favor of their homogenized crap? No thank you.
140.
Nom de Plume
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: If we had lost 200k jobs last month you sure as hell wouldn’t be “just asking” innocent lil’ ol’ questions, you’d be screaming DOOOOOM at the top of your fucking lungs. Either the numbers are to be trusted, or they’re not. Make up your fucking mind. And stop crying.
Yup, this is how far we’ve fallen. Sad. Of course, someone in worse shape than you could say the same thing. And you’d say, yeah, I should just shut it, because I, um, don’t have terminal cancer. Then another person can turn to that person and tell them to shut it, because at least their entire family didn’t die in a fire! And so on… brilliant.
I know what you’re going through, and I’ve been watching my partner go through it and he’s stuck in the cycle of creating resumes and waiting for someone to notice him. If it has not worked in 3 years, it is time to change tactics. He won’t hear it and it’s to his detriment.
Not to get all personal–or, more accurately–feel free to ignore this comment because it’s too personal, but has your partner explained why he won’t hear it? Sometimes, when one’s confidence is in the crapper, it’s easier to go through the standard impersonal application process rather than to admit to people face-to-face that you need help in finding a job. It’s as if not saying it out loud makes it not real or something.
Wow, where to begin. First, you assume I would say something different based on a hypothetical, then use that assumption to demand I “make up my mind.” THAT is fucking brilliant. Seriously. Brilliant.
146.
fasteddie9318
@ Fed Up: Look, this is a simple thing. Just try to imagine how you’d be reacting if there had been a net loss of 200,000 private sector jobs last month. If your reaction would be “well, maybe this is kind of a good thing, because those jobs were probably low paying with no benefits and the people who worked them might have really hated them,” then you’re at least on consistent, if bizarre, footing.
If, however, and I suspect this is more accurate, you’d be flipping out about the cratering economy and all those poor folks now struggling to find work, then you’re basically full of shit here whether you realize it or not.
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: when a dozen (yes, I counted) other commenters are telling you, either politely or otherwise, that you are acting the fool and you choose to blame all of them rather than — maybe — shut up about it…
Well, can you finish that sentence yourself? Judging from your comments here, probably not.
@fasteddie9318: Just like Pace put all the small salsa companies out of business with its homogenized crap?
Oh – wait. When I go to the grocery store, I find about 2 dozen different small brand labels looking out at me.
And Anheuser-Busch and Miller and Coors certainly made sure that no craft beers would ever have a foothold in the market, didn’t they!
150.
Cain
@PurpleGirl
Have you tried LinkedIn? In general, as someone else has said you need to do social networking. You need to have an in. Also, if possible check in to job retraining to see if you can do a job that is more in demand. (nursing?)
151.
fasteddie9318
@balconesfault: I realize that weed legalization is No Laughing Matter, but you might want to check the context of the thing you’re replying to.
Also too, the corn and red pepper salsa at Trader Joes is The Bomb, or would be The Bomb if their chocolate covered pretzels were not already The Bomb.
152.
The Moar You Know
I’ll be delighted to see Obama humiliated and destroyed, for one thing. My antipathy toward him (and Bill Clinton) in many ways surpasses that for the GOP line-up of thugs and bugs.
I have no idea what your anecdote about your friend has to do with anything. Her getting a job is somehow “bad” because it’s not as good as the one she once had? Being on unemployment wasn’t even worse? By these standards the only “good” outcome is if everybody gets back the jobs they had before the economy went south (and a pony!). It’s a pretty clear example of allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good. Yes, the economy still kind of sucks. But the available data suggest that it’s getting better. This is fairly unequivocal good news. Questioning that makes you look silly, and given your history here, makes people ask what your motives might be for asking silly questions.
Your hypothetical makes no sense. Let’s say those 200k jobs we added, hypothetically, were all taken out of desperation, for a few extra bucks more than they were getting in UI, to tread water for a bit longer… that wouldn’t be good news to me at all. But since they took those jobs out of desperation, it would be worse news if they lost them. In other words, there is a scenario where both are bad, but one is worse and neither worth celebrating.
And I have to say this for the 5th time. On the surface, this looks good. I hope it’s as good as it looks. I want it to be as good as it looks. I would be very happy if it was as good as it looks. I will celebrate if it’s as good as it looks. I just want more information. A crime in these parts, apparently.
156.
balconesfault
@fasteddie9318: Oooops .. misfunctional irony detector this am …
This shouldn’t be so difficult. There are degrees of bad. It’s bad to take a shitty job you hate our of sheer desperation; it’s worse to have no job. Neither is good news.
Your hypothetical makes no sense. Let’s say those 200k jobs we added, hypothetically, were all taken out of desperation, for a few extra bucks more than they were getting in UI, to tread water for a bit longer… that wouldn’t be good news to me at all. But since they took those jobs out of desperation, it would be worse news if they lost them. In other words, there is a scenario where both are bad, but one is worse and neither worth celebrating.
So it’s bad, and we shouldn’t celebrate (was anybody celebrating? where’s the champagne and spinach dip?), but it’s better than the alternative, which seems like a good thing, but it’s not a good thing, it’s a bad thing, but less bad than the status quo, so we should all be sad and feel sadness.
What level of employment would the new jobs have to reach to be good? If all 200,000 are corporate officer positions, can we be happy then? Or should we reserve judgment unless they’re all COO-level or higher?
Justice Ginsburg almost certainly will resign within the next four years…
While otherwise I like Ginsburg a lot, the fact she didn’t resign sometime relatively soon after Obama took office is just unforgivable. What the hell was she thinking? All I can chalk it up to is some kind of egotism.
166.
balconesfault
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Your hypothetical makes no sense. Let’s say those 200k jobs we added, hypothetically, were all taken out of desperation, for a few extra bucks more than they were getting in UI, to tread water for a bit longer… that wouldn’t be good news to me at all.
Would to me. Because as I said long, long ago – lots of good things spring from being employed, besides simply a paycheck. Keeping job skills current … making business contacts so you’re in the right place when the next opportunity arises … improving your resume … a sense of productivity (even work in a crappy job is better than more hours a day to engage in self-loathing).
You just do not accept these things, best I can tell. Which makes this whole discussion moot. You’re going to keep screaming for the perfect, while many others keep cautioning that the perfect should not be the enemy of the good.
167.
OzoneR
@The Moar You Know: Actually that’s David Michael Green, who was a professor of mine at Hofstra University
Wonderfully sarcastic, strawman-filled post! Did I say we should react one way or another? No. I said before we have any reaction, one way or another, perhaps we should know more. When did knowing more information become the third rail in here?
If all 200,000 are corporate officer positions, can we be happy then? Or should we reserve judgment unless they’re all COO-level or higher?
God no! We don’t need any more of those people!
171.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@balconesfault: God I love it when people pull out the old “perfect is the enemy of the good” canard, when all I am saying is, we need more information in order to determine what the superficial numbers really mean. Wow! What a perfectionist! Digging below the surface? Such a perfectionist! An idealist!
While otherwise I like Ginsburg a lot, the fact she didn’t resign sometime relatively soon after Obama took office is just unforgivable. What the hell was she thinking? All I can chalk it up to is some kind of egotism.
Seconded. I get that her stepping down now would cause a big confirmation shitstorm that nobody wants, but she had two years of a large D Senate majority to step aside and let Obama put a younger justice in there.
I have a friend who was unemployed for a while, collecting a lousy $365/week in UI benefits, while living in NYC. You can’t survive in NYC on that little amount of money. So she was FORCED to take a $600/week job she hated, with no benefits, which had her working 16 hours a day. She was miserable. It was awful. But she took it out of desperation. She didn’t celebrate that job, nor think it was good news. She hated it. It was awful. But she HAD to take it, in order to tread fucking water for a few more weeks.
Not to sound like one of them, but this is different from what my grandparents did when they came to this country how exactly?
Do you think they WANTED to mine coal? Do you think they got on a boat in Naples talking saying “Can’t wait to mine me some coal?” They thought the streets were paved with gold and they’d be living like kings. Do you think they were happy to discover they had to toil underground for millionaires? (This is why they created unions btw)
Life is full of disappointments, your friend’s dilemma is not uncommon and certainly is not new. I wish her luck, I really do, cause we’ve all been there
@liberal: Baker’s main point is that bobbleheads and journamalists shouldn’t be declaring it teh bestest nuz evah! It’s not. It’s good news, not great news.
No, it isn’t about Obama. Again, if one wants more information than merely superficial numbers, it’s automatically an attack on Obama. Do you hear yourself? If those underlying numbers prove their is reason to celebrate, I will gladly do so. I will gladly give Obama all the credit in the world. Why is that so hard to understand? The paranoia in here regarding Obama is insane.
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: all I am saying is, we need more information in order to determine what the superficial numbers really mean
No – we don’t. Not if all we’re trying to do is decide if this is good news or not.
If 200,000 people who did not have the option of taking a job now do … that is good news. Hell – maybe 500,000 people had the option of taking a job, and 300,000 passed on them because they were too low paying, benefits were too low, etc.
That 200,000 people who wanted jobs were able to take them – that’s good. Perhaps not perfect. Good.
Why is this concept so hard for you to grasp?
178.
liberal
@PeakVT:
I think the most charitable reading of Baker in the direction you’re intending would be “barely good news.”
Golly, you mean Dean Baker is digging deeper and finding the news isn’t quite as good as it appears?
Let’s see: “the news isn’t quite as good as it appears” versus “is it possible we are celebrating a GOP victory?”; there seems like there should be some daylight between those two arguments, but maybe I’m just drunk off all the champagne I’ve been guzzling since the report came out.
Baker is right, this is a mediocre number, but it’s a hell of a lot better than the previous two months even without the courier jobs, and it’s an election year so of course it’s going to get spun as something great. Baker’s “meh” does not give cover to your “are we sure this isn’t a horrible thing?”
No – we don’t. Not if all we’re trying to do is decide if this is good news or not.
Of course you have to dip into the numbers. For example, if you look at the Dean Baker link I provided, there’s at least some reason to doubt the numbers are good. (By “some,” I don’t mean convincingly so, but at least some evidence.)
We know a major part of the GOP agenda is to:
a) destroy high pay/good benefit public sector jobs, and
b) replace them with low pay/bad benefit private sector jobs
Right? We can agree there?
Okay. So, if the jobs reports we are seeing accomplish the following:
a) destroy high pay/good benefit public sector jobs, and
b) replace them with low pay/bad benefit private sector jobs
Then are we not seeing the GOP agenda taking shape? Yes or no?
See the block quote of his December comments posted by The Moar You Know upthread:
I’ll be delighted to see Obama humiliated and destroyed, for one thing. My antipathy toward him (and Bill Clinton) in many ways surpasses that for the GOP line-up of thugs and bugs.
Well, I guess Dean Baker should shut his pie hole too…. what does he know anyway….
He should know that job growth coming out of a recession hasn’t been 350k-400k for like 5 recessions now.
He should also know that these jobs;
Look at the data boys and girls. We created 42,200 courier jobs in December. Was there really a big surge in hiring in the courier industry? Well, the Bureau of Labor Statistics showed a surge of more than 50,000 new courier jobs last December, all of which were gone in January and then some. In other words, pull out our 42,000 courier jobs and we are looking at job growth of 158,000, not much to celebrate.
would be part of a seasonally-adjusted number.
188.
Brian R.
“Obambi still has the worst job creation record of any President in history.”
Are you retarded? He doesn’t even have the worst job creation record of presidents in the 21st century.
Bush oversaw a net gain of 1.1 million jobs over 8 years.
Not to mention that it has been widely reported that employers weren’t even considering resumes from unemployed people, so in this case, having A job is more important than staying on unemployment so you can find your dream job (or at least a job similar to the one you were laid off from).
It’s bad to take a shitty job you hate our of sheer desperation; it’s worse to have no job. Neither is good news.
Bullshit. Your tortured attempt to deny that “better” and “good” have any relationship is fairly amusing, but transparently silly.
As an example, I work in HIV research. If a patient on a new drug regimen experiences a drop in viral load and an increase in their CD4 count, that’s good news, no? But wait! They’re still infected with HIV, so by your logic that can’t be good. The only good news would be if the virus just magically disappeared overnight and left them just the way they were.
195.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@OzoneR: Yes, it shut me up because I have no idea what your point was.
196.
Davis X. Machina
@fasteddie9318: Just try to imagine how you’d be reacting if there had been a net loss of 200,000 private sector jobs last month.
“I looked at that, and I didn’t say that. If you look at it, what I started to say is a word and then sort of changed and it sort of — blah — came out. And people said I said ‘black.’ I didn’t,” Santorum said.
Yeah, that was it. I provided links, too. You said what you said.
Um, guys, I never wrote that quote being attributed to me.
No, but you quoted it approvingly and at great length. If I quoted a long screed on the economy from Eric Cantor with the sole comment “I’m with him,” people would justifiably suspect that I’m a Republican.
You’re looking for bad news. Period. You know it, we know it. You have a posting history here that supports this.
Now if you had some evidence of a problem that would be fine. But you don’t; you’re simply fishing for it with leading questions.
204.
PurpleGirl
Part of my problem in networking is that I stutter. It is difficult for me to cold call anyone. Early on in my unemployment I talked to quite a few people who I knew from various past jobs — most of them had also been let go and a few of them had moved out of the New York area. (Not an option for me because I don’t drive and have an sight problem that precludes driving.) I looked into joining an industry group but I didn’t have the money. Thanks to everyone who is responding with ideas.
205.
Hill Dweller
@Brian R.: Republicans have always countered that stat by pointing out Bush…wait for it…inherited a recession. They always start his job creating numbers in Jun. 2003.
Conversely and hypocritically, they pretend every job lost after Obama was sworn in is his fault.
I’m with David Michael Green:
__
“I’ll be delighted to see Obama humiliated and destroyed, for one thing. My antipathy toward him (and Bill Clinton) in many ways surpasses that for the GOP line-up of thugs and bugs.
You didn’t write it because…well…why would you when you can just cut, paste, and unequivocally endorse?
lol. Wait, so now I didn’t write it? Guys, get your stories straight. Meanwhile, what’s ignored is as I have stated numerous times, I am not saying this is bad news. I am saying I need to know more before celebrating. How can that be seen as some sort of massive anti-Obama agenda, unless you wear a fucking tinfoil hat? I will gladly celebrate it, once I have adequate confirmation. Why is wanting to know more detailed information prior to having an opinion to abhorrent to you? It literally makes no sense.
Jesus… buzzkill means to halt the celebration. Doesn’t mean I am assuming the news MUST be bad.
Yes, because when most people halt a celebration, it’s because they’re expecting the subsequent news to be even better than what’s already been announced.
Do you have any acquaintance with how human beings actually speak and interact with each other?
I’ll be delighted to see Obama humiliated and destroyed, for one thing. My antipathy toward him (and Bill Clinton) in many ways surpasses that for the GOP line-up of thugs and bugs.
Posted by you. December 20, 2011. Anyone can find it for themselves. I even helpfully posted a link upthread.
But wait…there’s a lot more. Should we start exhuming the archives?
Attn everyone who asked for better trolls: I think we finally got one. It writes grammatically correct sentences and everything.
211.
Irving
@OzoneR: In order to be a Republican these days, you have to pretend really really hard that GWB never existed. That’s why dear, sweet little Veritas is confused. He was in a fugue state all those years.
Good news? The dude thought he was perfectly healthy a week earlier. You think he’s gonna say thank god I only have HIV! Nope
WTF? That’s the worst analogy in the history of bad analogies. In case you missed it, the patient in this analogy is either the economy or our hypothetical unemployed person. The economy has not been “perfectly healthy” for several years. An unemployed person is also somewhat less than perfectly healthy (for the purposes of the analogy). So your attempt to reframe the analogy fails utterly due to lack of actual analogousness.
214.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Guys, it’s no secret I am no fan of Obama. But that has nothing to do with my position on this thread. As I have said over and over and over and over again, I HOPE it’s as good as it looks on the surface. I would be glad to give Obama credit where credit is due. I simply don’t have enough information. Why is wanting more information before rendering judgement somehow evidence of a conspiracy?
Are there websites or message boards for your industry? I know that there a lot for writers (like, say, the Freelancer’s Union). That might help you get some name recognition without the stress of having to speak face-to-face.
Sometimes industry groups will have a reduced rate for students and people like that — if you can afford it, it might be worth finding out if they’d be willing to let you join at that rate rather than the full rate.
216.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@Larv: Ugh… we’ve jumped the shark here with HIV analogies. I mean, we can debate analogies or actually look at the relevant data, which is all I have been suggesting.
217.
PurpleGirl
WaterGirl, I’ll be responding to your last comment when I return from a meeting with my (sole) typing client. (This is a person I’ve been typing for for some 20 years. She’s a writer and has never really learned how to use a computer for writing. I knew her in my last job and began working with her then.)
Then you need to seriously work on your definition of “good news”. In your hypothetical, people who didn’t have jobs now do. People are, by your own terms, getting paid more than they did before. That is an unambiguous GOOD thing. Is there an unambiguously BETTER thing out there? Almost assuredly. But that doesn’t change the fact that thing in front of us is GOOD.
” I just want more information.”
Well, no, you don’t, you’re also speculating on what that “more information” might be- and your speculation defies basic logic. It’s one thing to say “Let’s wait for the February revisions, maybe it’s not really 200,000 jobs”. THAT makes sense, that WOULD be a situation where “maybe this isn’t such good news”. But “wait, maybe these jobs aren’t as good as other jobs out there” DOESN’T make sense. Even if people have gotten out of unemployment via crummy jobs, they’ve still gotten out of unemployment, and that’s still a good thing.
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: This is ridiculous. If you think people thought the economy was perfectly healthy before we added jobs, you’re an idiot! And even if we did think it was perfectly healthy before we added jobs, that’s STILL good news. Freak.
Yes, you weren’t trying to say anything about Obama. That’s why you mentioned Obama in your comment:
In other words, absent more information, is it possible we are celebrating a GOP victory? And giving Obama credit for a GOP victory???
The only other person who mentioned Obama before you posted was speculating on this helping his re-election chances, not giving him credit. The only person to bring up Obama was you, and now you’re shrieking about the unfair attacks from Obots.
Then are we not seeing the GOP agenda taking shape? Yes or no?
No, for fuck’s sake, because the GOP agenda right now is for unemployment to go up, and job creation to tank, so they have a better chance of winning the fucking White House in November. When the converse happens, it is not good news for the fucking GOP. Are you seriously this dense? This has to be an act, right?
And please, please, do me a favor and tell the 200,000 newly employed folks that it would be better for the country, and also better for them but they’re too dumb to see it, if they were still unemployed. That will go over well.
Sigh, you got me. This was all a huge conspiracy to kneecap Obama. (Note to self: never mention Obama again, or else you have no chance at a reasonable conversation)
Why is wanting more information before rendering judgement somehow evidence of a conspiracy?
It’s not; unfortunately, that’s not what you did. In fact, in your first post, you didn’t ask for more information at all, all you did was lay out a scenario in which this was super-secret-double-stuffed-oreo BAD NEWS and said “HOW DO WE KNOW THIS ISN’T TRUE?”
That’s not asking for more info, tt’s actually a classic example of the “it would be irresponsible NOT to speculate” bullshit. And that isn’t changed by the fact that you’re now trying to back off of it and claim you’re “just asking questions”.
A long term goal of the GOP is to replace good pay/good benefit public sector jobs with low pay/low benefit private sector jobs. Anyone who denies this is a loon.
229.
dogwood
What is it about some people that they assume their internet pissing contests are entertaining and enlightening to everyone reading. I enjoy reading many of the commenters here, but I don’t give a rat’s ass about the Fed Up’s the Kola Noscopy’s etc. Yet once they drop in, a small group of formerly sane people, drop everything and start responding only to the assholes. You might assume that a thread with over 200 comments suggests a lively discussion, but as is increasingly the case here, you’d be wrong. The thread died with the first response to Fed Up around #37. I realize I’m only speaking for myself, but I can’t believe there aren’t at least a few other BJ readers who are finding this pattern increasingly tedious.
I don’t think that’s very accurate. If a guy is thirsty, and his glass was empty, then no, sorry, a half-full glass is unambiguously good news. Would it be better if it were all full? Yes. But that doesn’t make half-full “bad news”.
231.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Yes, I’m an asshole for simply stating I want more detailed information in order to determine the proper response to these numbers. Brilliant.
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: THE short-term goal of the GOP is to defeat Obama in November, and they’re counting on low employment and a cratered economy to help them do it. The only person apparently too stupid to see this is you, so for the sake of parallel construction I’ll say that anyone who denies this is Fed Up In Brooklyn.
234.
colby
@dogwood: Sometimes it’s tedious, sometimes, I dunno, it’s fun to feed the trolls. The good news is, there’s always other threads- hell, complete other websites- for when I get sick of the arguing.
I never said you did. I just linked to the comment where you quoted it as an example of your mindset. And “I didn’t write it” is a pretty weak dodge. You clearly owned it. Man up and admit that, at least.
Ugh… we’ve jumped the shark here with HIV analogies.
I stand by my analogy. If you care to retract yours, however, that would be understandable.
I mean, we can debate analogies or actually look at the relevant data, which is all I have been suggesting.
No you haven’t. You started off by speculating, without any data whatsoever, that what appears to be good employment news might actually be bad news (taking as a given that most people here would view a “GOP victory” as bad news), and insinuating that maybe Obama got punked by the GOP. Given your posting history, most people aren’t going to take that as an honest quest for knowledge, but as an attempt to further justify your dislike of Obama.
237.
fasteddie9318
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Also too, you know how you make it so that private sector jobs aren’t so low pay and low benefit? One important step is to reduce the pool of available workers who are desperate enough to take those kinds of jobs.
238.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Guys, you realize I am a troll simply for asking for more detailed information before rendering judgement on this bit of news? Do you hear yourselves? The reality? My question should have been accepted as reasonable. Instead it was seen as some massive conspiracy and attacked. And yet I’M THE TROLL. Amazing.
Asking for more information = troll
This is how far we’ve fallen here apparently.
239.
dogwood
@colby:
It’s fun for you. And increasingly there aren’t other threads. This is becoming the pattern on every thread at this site.
240.
The Moar You Know
As I have said over and over and over and over again, I HOPE it’s as good as it looks on the surface.
I’ll be delighted to see Obama humiliated and destroyed, for one thing.
Doesn’t sound like you’re the kind of guy who wants to hear any news that makes Obama look good. You might pardon me for being a bit skeptical of your motives.
Plus, there’s all that other stuff you posted. Makes this look a bit tame, frankly.
@dogwood: Well, I can’t speak for everyone, but my excuse is that I just assumed this thread was dead and thus open for non-sequiturized entertainment.
As eemom said 15 posts ago, why don’t you go get some fucking information instead of continuing to waste time arguing with us closed-minded lemming idiots?
Also need to make sure the GOP has a filibuster-proof majority on the Senate and a big advantage in the House.
There’s lots more.
Pretty sure you’re not on my side, ratfucker.
246.
colby
@dogwood: Well, sorry- I don’t check every thread on this site, so I can’t say how much that’s the case. But there’s always the option of not reading the comment threads, or going to another website, so again, when I DON’T find this to be fun, I don’t have to suffer it.
this is the great thing about quoting others and saying ‘I AGREE WITH THIS’. when you get called on it, you can run and hide behind ‘i didn’t actually say anything!’
buffoon.
249.
Yossarian
“My question should have been accepted as reasonable.”
But it wasn’t, and so it wasn’t. Pretty simple, really.
250.
IM
By the way, if only 12,000 public sector jobs were lost in december, the decline in public secotr jobs seems to slow down.
This is becoming the pattern on every thread at this site.
There’s truth in this. Everyone has their threshhold, of course. But I’ve noticed mine being breached more and more. In this situation, I’m just glad the trolling is actually topic-related. And relatively coherent.
Obambi still has the worst job creation record of any President in history.
Republicans eat the seed corn under Bush, then blame Obama for the bad harvest that follows. Nice trick, but you can only get away with it once or twice.
Guys, you realize I am a troll simply for asking for more detailed information before rendering judgement on this bit of news?
That’s not what you did. You laid out a stupid hypothetical scenario (that no one else even accepts WOULD constitute bad news), then asked a rhetorical question about how we should investigate to make sure your stupid hypothetical scenario ISN’T true. That’s not even demanding that someone prove a negative, it’s asking that someone disprove a fun make-em-up.
Seriously, finding evidence that disproves every nutty theory you can have about these jobs numbers? That’s not the job of anyone here.
I’m gonna bookmark that one. It’s absolute gold. If “Fed Up” doesn’t like to see his approving quotes, how about this direct statement by him in the same thread (#21), in response to a question of whether we should vote for Gingrich or Perry instead of Obama:
————————————————–
Fed Up in Brooklyn:
“Either one is fine. Also need to make sure the GOP has a filibuster-proof majority on the Senate and a big advantage in the House. Currently, we have a right wing agenda, with Obama getting the blame. Give them all the power and when they flush what remains of the country into the toilet, perhaps then “conservatism” will finally be rejected and a real progressive movement can gain a foothold. Otherwise, the slow-motion destruction will continue well into the future before hitting the eventual bottom. I say get it over with.”
Well if she used to give blow jobs in the public sector and is now forced to do so in a private position with shitty benefits, then this is undeniably something we should all worry very much about.
261.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Ozone, I didn’t bring up the HIV analogy. Someone else did. I responded to it. It was a dumb analogy. Since there is no cure for HIV, that analogy means there is no chance at getting a job as good as you had before the crisis. It means good health (or a good job) is not even possible. Dumb. Agreed.
Look, this will be my last stab before I give up on this topic.
Let’s pretend you are all correct and it’s true, I am posting with an agenda to make Obama look bad. Let’s pretend I’m some GOP operative. There once was a time when political opponents would challenge claims and demand evidence. And those claiming one thing would accept the challenge and provide the evidence. That’s how political discourse worked. A reasonable request was a reasonable request regardless of agenda. One could have an agenda to sink Obama and still ask a reasonable question and vice versa. If the question was reasonable, the question deserved an answer.
Now, taking that into consideration, what’s wrong with asking for more information, more details, specifics, analysis, in order to prove one way or another whether the claim at the top of this thread, that this is “good news” for the economy, is in fact true? If it IS true, then your should have no problems proving it with the requested information. If it is not true, and further analysis reveals what appears to be good news is in fact mediocre or bad news, the data would show that as well. Anyone?
lol, I was posting a thought experiment (stated that many times) as to how giving the GOP complete control would ultimately lead to their own destruction and you cherry-pick it to make it look like I approve of the GOP agenda. Now that’s classic propaganda.
Now, taking that into consideration, what’s wrong with asking for more information, more details, specifics, analysis, in order to prove one way or another whether the claim at the top of this thread, that this is “good news” for the economy, is in fact true?
This is insane. Absent any counter evidence, which is what YOU should be providing if this is the argument you want to have, a net gain of 200,000 jobs is good news for the economy. Full stop. Is it miraculously wonderful history-changing paradigm-shifting joyous amazing news? No. It’s good news. More would have been better, less would have been worse. If you want to make the argument that a net gain of 200,000 jobs is not good news for the economy, then fucking make it. Go get the goddamn evidence and make it. The bullshit you’re doing is just a waste of everyone’s time.
Yes, you took a quote OUT OF CONTEXT. Much like Mitt Romney did with his ad using part of Obama’s quote….. by your logic, Romney was not engaging in misleading propaganda. Classic.
270.
fasteddie9318
@Wee Bey: For you, sure. For her, maybe. But for the rest of us?
For the last time, I was NEVER MAKING THE ARGUMENT THAT THIS WAS BAD NEWS. I was merely asking for evidence to back the claim that it is good news. That’s the claim at the top of the thread. Your response? It just is. Obviously. Well, it’s not obvious to Dean Baker… and it’s not obvious to me. I need more information. And clearly I won’t get it here, so yes, I’ll find it for myself. You can just sit back and enjoy living under superficial assumptions. I’ll actually do the research.
For the record, though, Dean Baker is saying it’s not great news. And plopping down here and demanding that the rest of us go research your own question was, well, lots of descriptors come to mind but none of them positive.
For example, what if you dug deeper and found out that 100k of those jobs were temporary seasonal jobs, soon to expire? Good news? No. So you DON’T know for sure if that number indicates good news absent more information. You can assume, but you don’t know.
I hope you’re enjoying your little exercise in mud-wrestling with the suckers. But you don’t really think you’re being an effective concern troll today, do you? You do realize that any person who were ever earnestly into progressivism, and maybe at some point would hear you out about your concerns about the President’s record – they’re just gonna see right through your schtick when you unwisely fail to keep your head down and stay quiet on good days? Just some friendly advise, buddy :)
For example, what if you dug deeper and found out that 100k of those jobs were temporary seasonal jobs, soon to expire? Good news?
Of course it is. Is it as good as other news? No. But it’s still good news that someone found a way to make some money, if only for a month or two.
281.
fasteddie9318
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: THE FUCKING NUMBERS ARE SEASONALLY ADJUSTED, FOR FUCK’S SAKE!
282.
The Moar You Know
“Fed Up In Brooklyn” site:balloon-juice.com
Paste it into Google and go. He’s a fucking goldmine.
283.
liberal
@OzoneR:
The funniest thing on this thread is OzoneR, aka Nick “Japan suffered mightily from inflation” trying to talk back to Dean Baker on questions of economic statistics.
in order to prove one way or another whether the claim at the top of this thread, that this is “good news” for the economy, is in fact true?
*John Cleese voice* Because it is self-bleeding-evident! If you you think that it might not be, then go find some fucking evidence. Or continue shitting in the punch bowl and sticking your dick in the mashed potatoes. Whichever.
Ozone, I didn’t bring up the HIV analogy. Someone else did. I responded to it. It was a dumb analogy. Since there is no cure for HIV, that analogy means there is no chance at getting a job as good as you had before the crisis. It means good health (or a good job) is not even possible. Dumb. Agreed.
My god are you obtuse. There was nothing wrong with the analogy, at least not before you tortured it beyond recognition. I used HIV/AIDS because it’s a disease I’m familiar with, but you can substitute a disease which is ultimately curable if it makes you feel better. But the analogy was only meant to illustrate the absurdity of your claim that “better” was somehow qualitatively different from “good”, not to be a perfect analogy for the environment.
If the question was reasonable, the question deserved an answer.
It has been answered, repeatedly. You just haven’t deigned to respond to those, choosing instead to play the martyr.
If it IS true, then your should have no problems proving it with the requested information.
I’m not your monkey. If you want to make the extremely counterintuitive argument that this in fact bad news, it’s up to you to support that with data and/or valid arguments. You don’t get to just throw up loony hypotheticals and demand that we shoot them down.
290.
sparky
politically it is great news for the Administration.
as employment news it seems that it’s good but not great news: numbers not adjusted, out of workforce continues to be an issue but it was a better Xmas hiring season that people thought it would be.
291.
t jasper parnell
Hereare the BoL reports. If Fed wanted to look into them it took me 20 seconds to find them. But then, I actually wanted to know if it was good news or not.
I was required to AGREE with someone else’s analogy? Wow, the rules get tougher in here every minute. Let me write this one down:
Rule: If someone proposes an analogy you disagree with, you must agree anyway and dare not propose an alternate analogy. Phew. Weird, but okay…
Meanwhile…
“I used HIV/AIDS because it’s a disease I’m familiar with, but you can substitute a disease which is ultimately curable if it makes you feel better. ”
Well yes, that would be required in order for your analogy to make sense.
296.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Now, if we want to tackle a slightly different disease-related analogy, I’d propose this:
Someone completely healthy one day. (GOOD JOB)
Diagnosed with curable cancer the next. (UNEMPLOYED)
Current treatment not causing remission, and patient is in much pain. (UI BENEFITS)
New treatment not causing remission either, but relives patients pain somewhat. (CRAPPY PART-TIME JOB)
Now, one could say, it’s good news that the pain has decreased, but ultimately the goal is to cure the disease and on that front, it’s NOT GOOD NEWS.
@Wee Bey: Does she have a cold sore? We really need to dig deeper on this….
308.
t jasper parnell
FUIB. Yes exactly. The news she is good; the situation she stinks. So? Should we all when we get good news insist that its not perfect news? Obviously, more intensive state investments in job creation and, while we’re at it, the nationalization of the CT model that Kay mentioned would be even yet more better news. Plus more ponies.
So?
I’ve gone as deep as I can. It’s my failing as a man.
310.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@t jasper parnell: But it’s not good news. It’s better news, not good. There’s a difference. That’s my opinion. Shared by Paul Krugman. Dean Baker is even more down on the news and Zero Hedge basically calls it crap.
Again, if you fail five tests in a row, then get a D-, do you call that good news? I guess it’s up to you, but I would never call a D- a good grade.
“But it’s not good news. It’s better news, not good. There’s a difference.”
You’re a moron.
312.
t jasper parnell
FUIB Good news doesn’t equal good grades, you’re either shifting modes of discourse or letting your analogy get away from you. Better grade than the grade you got last time, especially if it’s the result of an increased understanding of the material, is good news. Being better than the worse is good news. Not great news but good news. Gospel.
So, when I read in the paper this morning about more GM plant openings going forward in MI, I said to myself: That’s good news. Not every or even most of the unemployed, of which I am one, are going to get jobs but some will. Yes good news, not great news for me, although great news for those directly affected.
Still, I thought, more needs to be done. So overall the news could be better; but still good was the news.
Try a little nuance, won’t cha?
313.
t jasper parnell
I would also classify this as good news. Not because I favor limited socio-economic mobility but because the problem is getting more discussion. Good news, better news would be a reverse in the trend but still good news.
So is Paul Krugman, apparently, since he said the exact same thing.
315.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Guys, Paul Krugman, a man who knows a thing or two about unemployment numbers said this was not “good” news. Now, you can disagree with him, but I happen to have the same opinion. We can all agree to disagree on what we consider good.
316.
t jasper parnell
@WeeBey: That’s not fair to morons; FUIB is just stubbornly insisting that all news less than perfect news isn’t good news. So when Mark Thoma insists that
[t]he good news in the latest unemployment report coupled with the decline in new claims for unemployment insurance over the last few weeks are both pointing to recovery. But how strong and robust will that recovery be?
He shows that while he recognizes that multiple problems remain and that policy makers need to more, Thoma understands that good news is good news even when hedged in and around by not good news. Sort of like surviving the Somme is good news for those who survived even if the Somme remains a shameful episode of humanity gone mad.
And you’re right. If he was just stupid, he’d stop. He’s a ratfucker.
318.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Ah yes, it’s been a few hours since I was accused of wanting “perfection…”
lol
Meanwhile, over at Zero Hedge:
One does not need to be a rocket scientist to grasp the fudging the BLS has been doing every month for years now in order to bring the unemployment rate lower: the BLS constantly lowers the labor force participation rate as more and more people “drop out” of the labor force for one reason or another. While there is some floating speculation that this is due to early retirement, this is completely counterfactual when one also considers the overall rise in the general civilian non institutional population. In order to back out this fudge we are redoing an analysis we did first back in August 2010, which shows what the real unemployment rate would be using a realistic labor force participation rate. To get that we used the average rate since 1980, or ever since the great moderation began. As it happens, this long-term average is 65.8% (chart 1). We then apply this participation rate to the civilian noninstitutional population to get what an “implied” labor force number is, and additionally calculate the implied unemployed using this more realistic labor force. We then show the difference between the reported and implied unemployed (chart 2). Finally, we calculate the jobless rate using this new implied data. It won’t surprise anyone that as of December, the real implied unemployment rate was 11.4% (final chart) – basically where it has been ever since 2009 – and at 2.9% delta to reported, represents the widest divergence to reported data since the early 1980s. And because we know this will be the next question, extending this lunacy, America will officially have no unemployed, when the Labor Force Participation rate hits 58.5%, which should be just before the presidential election.
It’s not spin. It’s what the man said. Only someone determined to ratfuck objectively good news would miss that.
321.
t jasper parnell
FUIB, accused of wanting perfection? I want a perfect world, don’t you? Indeed, in your 296 you argued that anything less than a cure for cancer as joblessness wasn’t good news. Surely then in your analogy it’s the perfect toward which we all ought work and absent its being attained the news she is not good.
Plus I’ll go your linkless quote one better and claim that if you add in the under and unhappily, like your “friend,” employed the number is closer to 25%. The world sucks, the news is still good.
One thing for sure, one who spends time fucking rats has a teeny-tiny thingy.
323.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Zero Hedge analysis ignored, I see…
Objectively good news? Krugman’s conclusion:
So yes, this is better news than we’ve been having. But it’s still vastly inadequate.
Vastly inadequate is good? Interesting.
324.
El Cid
It’s difficult to determine whether or not a particular development is “good news” unless you have a definition of “good” in mind.
For many people it may not have in many situations a very specific definition — i.e., conditions A, B, and C must be in effect to be “good” — but simply be something which happened which seems more positive than negative.
Outside empirical debates about the statistics themselves (fine too), it’s just an announcement that during a specific time periods 200,000 more net full-time employment positions appeared than were lost or destroyed.
There’s nothing wrong with having a notion of what a “good” economy would be like, and then noting that the current economy is not like that.
Nor is there anything wrong with saying that any apparent or claimed improvement in net employment positions is “good”.
It’s also okay to move back and forth to different levels or terms of analysis and different meanings of “good”, as long as you know that’s what you’re doing and that each time “good” is your own reference point.
325.
t jasper parnell
Good news is news that is better than bad news while double plus ungood news is news that is not good. One month not that long ago zero jobs were reported, bad news. Last month the BoL reported 200k jobs plus a decline in ue claims this news is good news. It’s not the best news and clearly the neoliberal economic system continues to fail to create anything like the number of jobs necessary for anything approaching full employment and that is bad news.
Well yes, that would be required in order for your analogy to make sense.
Not if one is familiar with the concept of an analogy, which you apparently aren’t. Look, all analogies fail at some point. Situations which are perfectly analogous are not analogous at all but identical. In my analogy, the long-term prospects are irrelevant, as all we were discussing was whether an improvement in the short-term (reduction in viral load) constituted good news, which in unequivocally does. Likewise a short-term improvement in the economy is good news, as is a short-term improvement in employment. You’re trying to get around this by equating good with perfect, which is nonsensical.
Now it’s certainly possible that at some point in the future these short-term gains will prove illusory, but that’s only possible to see with the benefit of hindsight. All we have at the moment is the short-term info, so all we can do is say whether that is good or bad. And better short-term info is a good thing, whether that’s inconvenient to your preconceptions or not.
Ah yes, it’s been a few hours since I was accused of wanting “perfection…”
Now, one could say, it’s good news that the pain has decreased, but ultimately the goal is to cure the disease and on that front, it’s NOT GOOD NEWS.
Juxtaposed for effect.
This is exactly what I was talking about with my initial analogy and what you seem totally obtuse to. You have defined the only “good” result as the ideal result, i.e. completely curing the disease. No clinician in the world would agree with you. There are lots and lots of good results which fall short of that – reduction in tumor size, reduction of patient suffering, etc… Similarly, it’s quite possible to acknowledge that the economy sucks and still think that short term improvement is a good thing. Getting back to where we were is going to take a long time, and it’s absurd to claim that there’s no possibility of good news until we’re there.
To address your grade analogy, if the student’s grades go FFFFD-DDDDD+CC-CCCC+B-BB, I think you’ll agree that would be an improvement. But by the standards you’re insisting upon, each of those incremental gains is too small to qualify as good news. Is a D good in an absolute sense? Of course not. But if another F is going to get you expelled, then it’s very good news. Note that I’m not saying it’s a good grade, but that it’s good news relative to earlier performance. Your friend’s new job may suck, but if that paycheck is the difference between paying the rent and getting evicted, that’s good news. Similarly, any improvement from a very shitty economy to a somewhat better economy is good news.
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nevsky42
It’s going to be fun watching the Mittbot try to process this the way Harry Mudd’s androids reacted to Kirk’s irratioinal behavior…
Punchy
This is great news for Tim Tebow.
Danny
Good news for Ron Paul.
El Cid
No they weren’t, unemployment is higher than it’s ever been, the entire economy is being soshullized, etc.
Dave
So much for the “job destroyer” line. Mitt only got, what, 48 hours out of that attack?
lol
It’s all thanks to the job creation programs passed by the Republican Congress.
El Cid
@Dave: So far, I don’t see any reason why he should stop saying it, because who cares if it’s true or not? That doesn’t usually bother the GOP, unless by some odd chance it elicits the rare widespread public revulsion.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
The Republican line will be: Thanks to us, the President wasn’t able to spend money we didn’t have, which would have weakened the economy and prevented these jobs from being created. I know at least two people here, where I work, who believe that to be true.
GregB
I was just reading some FaceBook posts from a resident wingnut buddy.
They all seemed to be settling in on a Mitt Romney nomination and vowed to hold their nose and vote.
Such talk is music to my ears. They are already depressed.
EconWatcher
If it keeps moving in the right direction, even very slowly, Obama should be a shoo-in. But it seems like the chances of the Dems ending up with both chambers are slim to none. And what can he do without Congress–except take the blame for things he can’t control? Sigh.
Trurl
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/wonkbook-the-real-unemployment-rate-is-11-percent/2011/12/12/gIQAuctPpO_blog.html
El Cid
This would be fun if it goes anywhere, and especially as it might not be such an accident.
With a mere 8 vote margin, it’d be bizarre if such claims didn’t appear, and this would be so in any voting system, much less the caucus type.
H/T GOS.
Cat Lady
Need moar tax cuts for the job creators.
/wingnut
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@EconWatcher:
Why?
4tehlulz
@El Cid: SEE? SEE? VOTER FRAUD!!!
RalfW
I expect the Republicans in Congress to do all they can to destroy this evil menace of job creation (under a Democratic president, that is).
Face
I believe the uptick is due to a large increase in hiring for drone operators and TV nun rapists.
rlrr
@4tehlulz:
For all the talk from the right about voter fraud, I find it amusing who is involved when actual voter fraud occurs…
El Cid
@4tehlulz: Is there a Kenyan watermark on the paper he supposedly used to jot this highly top secret classified information down for unauthorized seditious Facebook disclosure?
EconWatcher
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/11/21/democrats_have_an_uphill_climb_to_retake_the_house_112125.html
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/09/28/odds_favor_gop_gaining_senate_control_in_2012_111492.html
Admittedly, realclearpolitics leans right, but the above is fact-based, and you can find similar analysis on more liberal sites.
ericblair
@El Cid:
Shorter Iowa Republican Party: Who ya gonna believe, honey, me or your lyin’ eyes?
Schlemizel
@EconWatcher:
GIven the problems he had doing anything done for the 2 years Dems controlled both houses I’d say we are in for another 4 years of roadblocks, delays, half-measures and circling the drain. The situation is,sadly, that is the best we can do. Sure it will destroy America, just not as fast as if there is one of the bozo patrol in the White House. I think we all saw how fast and how extreme the damage was the wingnuts had all three, we can’t let that ever happen again.
We have to hope that recent global warming events are aberrations and it is not going to run away, that China screws up at least enough to not dominate the world and that the poor can hang on with moldy crumbs while we as a nation twiddle our thumbs. Eventually enough people will awake to reality and sanity will be restored, maybe.
rob!
That sound you hear is the entire Republican Party hearing we ADDED jobs and exclaiming, “Damn!”
RalfW
@El Cid:
Did he show his Voter ID (r)? Did the GOP fraud-squad OK this whole caucus idea?
I mean, really, they should cancel such a messy and fraud-prone system and just use some sort of poll-based projection-thingy so that the people will have their wishes tabulated (by Diebold, naturally) without the muss of actually leaving home, sitting in a library, and writing things down on unreliable things like paper.
Seriously, though, the GOP is of course the party of Diebold, paperless voting, spreadsheets of 8,000 votes found in a Waukesha briefcase, etc., so it should be no surprise if some of the Iowa caucus results are as crooked as Dick Nixon.
rlrr
@rob!:
“The Bush tax cuts are working!”
— the GOP
Schlemizel
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
IIRC we would need 50 seats to take the House & that is a bit of a hill to climb (I am hoping that Willard will depress the turn out enough that it happens but I have never been an optimist).
As a Pessimist my big fear is that there are a lot more Dem Senate incumbent seats the GOP ones and we can’t afford to lose a single one.
RalfW
@EconWatcher: Both of those articles were written before the payroll tax extension debacle (episode II coming soon!) and before the new jobs numbers.
I have no doubt that getting Nancy Pelosi back in possession of the gavel will be difficult. But I think the ongoing Klown Kar/freakshow is eroding the beltway conventional wisdom from those RCP items.
jibeaux
Well, did anyone see any pictures of the actual caucus voting? It’s like a hundred white guys sticking slips of paper in a fucking bucket. It looks like a damn Elks Lodge Secret Santa name draw.
flukebucket
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
And what would it matter? We have seen that movie before.
PeakVT
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): I haven’t looked at the House yet, but here’s what I think will happen in the Senate in one handy chart.
RalfW
@PeakVT: If we end up with a 50/50 Congress, we damn well better hold the WH. Biden’s years of Senate life could come in very handy.
The 4 tossups make the 50/50 look iffy. In fact holding the Senate could be iffy. It would be quite the eye-opening circus if we had narrow GOP majorities in both ends of Congress and a blackity black Democrat for president.
And by eye opening circus, I mean bad for the American people during the two years of unbridled nuttery/impeachment/chaos.
Napoleon
@El Cid:
I don’t at all think that was an accident.
kerFuFFler
@jibeaux:
You made my morning! 8D
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Hate to buzzkill the employment numbers, but…
We know the GOP wants to cut public sector jobs with good pay and benefits and replace them with private sector jobs with low pay/benefits, right?
We’ve seen a drop in public sector jobs and a rise in private sector jobs.
How do we know these new jobs being added aren’t the low pay/low benefit kind preferred by the GOP?
In other words, absent more information, is it possible we are celebrating a GOP victory? And giving Obama credit for a GOP victory???
Now, I don’t know if this is the case, but shouldn’t we know more before we decide if it’s good news or not?
CT Voter
I get it. These good job numbers are exactly what Republicans wanted! Good grief.
balconesfault
Is this good news for John McCain?
PeakVT
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Adding jobs (above the current population growth requirement of about 100k) is undoubtedly good news. The quality of the jobs matters in the long run, but with unemployment as high as it is, I think it would be a stretch to find bad news in this report.
@RalfW: I agree it’s iffy, but my non-expert opinion is that it will be a mildly positive year for the Democrats, despite a less than great economy. So I think the Dems will retain control despite having so many seats up for grabs.
balconesfault
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: How do we know these new jobs being added aren’t the low pay/low benefit kind preferred by the GOP?
Well – they are jobs. Which means that a couple hundred thousand people who were sitting around worrying about if they’d be able to find work now have some. And the Gov’t needs to write 200,000 less unemployment or welfare checks next month.
Both preconditions for the growth of a healthy economy that will support high pay/high benefit jobs. Those won’t start coming back until the slack is gone.
Obama has done everything he could to keep public sector jobs up. At some point, if GOP led state governments want to take out the broadsword rather than pay for them, there’s little to be done.
The Moar You Know
Got to listen to the morning drive “reasonable” Republican douche in Los Angeles choke on this, and then interview some local Orange County religious guy (not Rick Warren) who first insinuated that Obama was a seekrit Muslim, and then doubled down by saying that Mitt Romney wasn’t a Christian either.
I was not aware you could hear a man tear his hair out over the air until today.
huckster
Democrats need only 25 seats to flip the house. This seems entirely doable to me.
RossInDetroit
The jobs picture would be even better if the public sector wasn’t shedding jobs as the private sector adds them. State, county and local governments are still ‘in recession’ as far as employment goes. This is largely due to reduced tax revenues.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
“Well – they are jobs. Which means that a couple hundred thousand people who were sitting around worrying about if they’d be able to find work now have some. And the Gov’t needs to write 200,000 less unemployment or welfare checks next month.”
This is exactly what I am talking about. This is a classic GOP victory, if true.
Less on government dole, more working as Walmart greeters, part time, with no benefits. I need to know more before celebrating.
AxelFoley
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
And of course you would have the negative take on this. You’d find the negative if President Obama cured cancer.
RossInDetroit
@jibeaux:
Iowa is the short bus that leads the Clown Car Fail Parade.
Poopyman
The key to the Dems picking up House seats and retaining the Senate is to depress the Republican vote. I.e., make them so depressed that they won’t bother showing up at the polls. So far things are going OK, but I fear that once the professional Democrats actually take action along these lines it’ll boomerang on them and blow up in their faces. Maybe I’m being too harsh on the pros, but their track record is, shall we say, a little weak.
handsmile
Belafon/EconWatcher/Schlemizel/RalfW/PeakVT:
I’ll write it again today (and probably many days hereafter): the real battle and greatest challenge for the Democratic Party in the national 2012 election cycle will be to retain majority control of the Senate. (Implicit in this statement, of course, is my belief that barring a domestic catastrophe President Obama will be reelected.)
If the Republicans gain the Senate majority (holding the House as well), they will effectively control two of the three branches of the US government. Because the grand prize this year is the Supreme Court. Justice Ginsburg almost certainly will resign within the next four years; possibly Justices Breyer and Kennedy as well. A US Senate led by the GOP, assisted by conservative Democrats, could dictate that only jurists as radically conservative as John Yoo or Janice Rogers Brown would gain its approval for a Supreme Court seat, crippling Obama’s selection of nominees.
I don’t mean to be tiresome or Cassandra-like on this matter, but it is the scenario I find most frightening. President Obama’s coattails are going to have to be titanium (or perhaps graphene) clad this fall.
PeakVT: Thanks for assembling that useful chart on Senate races. (First time visiting your own website as well.) For the most part, I concur with your assessments, though I have greater reservations about the reelection prospect of Nelson (FL) and the open seat in New Mexico.
Poopyman
@AxelFoley: All those hospice workers out of work!
Job killer.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@AxelFoley:
Nice ad hom. Meanwhile, I simply asked a question. Care to tell me why the question is not a legitimate one? Or should we simply stop at superficiality when it serves Obama’s interests? Let me know.
Dave
@AxelFoley:
All those poor researchers put out of work. Fundraisers left out in the cold. What a heartless President…
RP
I’ve decided that the Democrats’ version of the 11th Commandment is “thou shalt not acknowledge any good news, especially if it comes during a Democratic Administration.”
Kane
The Republican talking points claiming that the Obama adminstration is holding back the private-sector and expanding BIG governemnt are nothing more than myths.
jl
Some good news on on the jobs front. Hurray!
IMHO, I think this is due to increase in manufacturing which in turn is a lagged effect of recent episode of dollar devaluation relative to currencies of major trading partners that started after the recovery began.
So next time you hear some gazillionaire entertainment star back from a foreign road show on late night TV complaining how expensive everything is overseas, or GOP goldnut fetishists complaining about the destruction of the value US currency, ignore them and hope for more devaluation.
Problem is that European currency troubles have produced recent increases in value of dollar against Euro and some other trading partner currencies (I don’t know enough about currency markets to understand why Euro troubles should affect exchange rate of dollar on East and South Asian and Latin American markets, but there has been a recent rise).
European currency troubles are exacerbated by US style Washington Consensus Very Serious People who run financial side of Europe, and Germans, who have always been that way, which was OK when they were only responsible for their own country. But now they have a big impact, and big responsibility, for maintaining a currency union, so now it is not OK.
I don’t think dollar devaluation is good for Wall St profits, so there will be attempt to reverse declines, but not sure. Any finance people here know? On other hand, I think that keeping borrowing costs low, and inflation very low is more important for the rentier sector (bascially the too big to fail financial sector) and will have higher priority.
I will check back for any opinions from finance and currency exchange mavens lurking here.
PurpleGirl
@balconesfault:
Well, they’ve been writing fewer checks for quite a while now — people can still be unemployed but fall off the benefits rolls if their state wasn’t in the group of very high unemployment and in some cases even if the state had high numbers of unemployed people if the numbers fell below a cut-off point. Also, just because you were unemployed and aged out of unemployment benefits, you might not be able to get cash assistance or general relief (it’s not called welfare anymore). If you owned your home or a co-op, you had assets that kept you from getting aid. (I live in a NON-PROFIT co-op and I couldn’t get cash assistance because I had an asset I could possibly sell. Didn’t matter that I could only sell it back to the corporation for a minimal amount of money… it was an asset I could sell!)
rlrr
@huckster:
Districts who elected tea-bagging freshmen might be suffering from a case of buyer’s regret…
superluminar
@AxelFoley
But…but…that’s just what the GOP wants! If Barry cures cancer then fewer elderly Repub voters will die, thus handing them Victory in the elections! Wake up sheeple!!!
Poopyman
@handsmile: Hey Cassandra, don’t forget about the inevitable impeachment. Not likely to clear the two-thirds hurdle, but Republicans don’t care about a conviction so much as the damage an impeachment does politically.
Of course, after the Clinton debacle I doubt the general population sees it the way it was viewed prior to 1992. Won’t stop the thugs, of course.
Lawnguylander
Sure you do. Just like I hate to be the one to tell you that we’re going to repeal the 22nd Amendment. I’d say 5 terms for Obama is a pretty safe bet. Then a couple for Michelle until one of the girls is ready to take over. Which one of the little cuties do you think will be #46?
Davis X. Machina
@RP: True on the left, generally but mostly for not-Democrats. A lot of them are still waiting for the announcement that property is, in fact, theft, as promised by Obama on the campaign trail.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@RP:
This is an amazing display, actually.
My entire premise questions whether this actually IS good news. It’s a legitimate point. If we dig deeper than merely surface level and find there is reason to celebrate, I’d be very happy to do so. I don’t KNOW enough to determine if this is cause for celebrating or not. I hope it is. I would be very happy if that were proven to be the case. I just don’t know and neither does anyone else in here.
Kane
The economy is rebounding, and all in the face of republican obstruction. Just imagine where we would be if republicans had put country before party.
Schlemizel
@huckster:
You are right – the GOP holds a 50 seat edge so if we can flip 26 the Dems would have a 2 seat edge. Thats what I get for not thinking the math through – thanks
26 does seem doable. Gotta hope
balconesfault
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Less on government dole, more working as Walmart greeters, part time, with no benefits. I need to know more before celebrating.
Sorry – while I want to see more creation of solid middle class jobs, there is a cycle of despair that comes from sitting around just waiting for the next gov’t check to come in the mail while job rejection after job rejection fill your mailbox.
Someone with a job is building a resume, getting connections, and feeling useful, even in some small way. Life sucks for someone who hasn’t had a job in months – it sucks the soul away, even as you realize that it’s not your fault.
But the biggest key, as I said before, is slack in the labor force disappearing. When we start getting down closer to 6% eventually, there will be the kind of competition for even unskilled labor that drives up benefits and wages.
flukebucket
For the 200,000 who got the jobs I can guarantee you it is good news.
Danny
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
But I thought that’s what concern trolls do 4 lulz?
RP
No, it’s not. OF COURSE many of those jobs are low paying and don’t have great benefits, and OF COURSE the country would be in much better shape if we weren’t shedding so many public sector jobs. Those points are obvious. But adding jobs and reducing unemployment is inherently a good thing, especially for the people who can go back to work. And it’s not part of some super double-secret plan by the GOP.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
What’s amazing is I’m not even talking about Obama or blaming him for anything. This isn’t an Obama criticism. Yet the paranoid, defend-Obama-at-all-costs brigade can’t help themselves. Jesus…..
Apparently, we can’t ask for more information before making a judgement in here…..
Sad, actually….
Culture of Truth
Hmmm… what happened in February 2009?
lonesomerobot
but… but… Huffington Post says that doesn’t matter, because if the workforce was the same size as it was in 2009, unemployment would be over 10%!!!!
And if the workforce was the same size as it was in 1980, unemployment would be like 20% or something!!! (see what I did there, HuffPo?)
Sheesh.
Culture of Truth
Jobs
Since Start of Recession (Dec. 2007) – MINUS 6,083,000
Since President Obama Took Office – MINUS 937,000
Jan – Dec. 2011 – PLUS 1,640,000
CT Voter
@RP: I disagree. Dems will celebrate this as good news. The media, though, will dissect these numbers, discuss the underemployment rate (never mentioned with an R in office), and commenters will point out how these good job numbers are actually a classic GOP victory.
Against that cacophony of negativity, it’s actually pretty astounding that the president’s approval ratings aren’t further in the toilet.
balconesfault
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Because the data is in and of itself good.
Sure – it might be better news. But it’s still good news in any case (unless the people were forced to take jobs at gunpoint).
I can see you reading about 100 people saved from a sinking ship, and asking “sure, but how many of them have cancer?”
Kane
For three years we have been told that Obama’s re-election prospects hinge entirely on the economy, but if the economy continues to improve the media may have to rethink their narrative.
Culture of Truth
This could be really bad news. Who can say? No one really knows!
Veritas
Obambi still has the worst job creation record of any President in history.
This is a little dead cat bounce, due mostly to temporary holiday jobs that will be toast next month. Combined with the continuing Euro crisis and weakness in Asia and uncertainty over Obamacare, things are setting up nicely for a dead cat bounce followed by a double-dip.
Too little, too late, liberals.
RealityCheck
PurpleGirl
@balconesfault:
Try YEARS. I’m out THREE years and counting. And I had NO responses to resumes and applications made. I’m existing on help from relatives. It’s not fun asking for help from your siblings.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@lonesomerobot: And if we were all poor, and our children were having to beg for jobs as well, the unemployment rate would really be closer to 50%, so it all just sucks.
eemom
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
oh, go rape a nun, Glenn.
jl
Well, yeah, I’ve read stats that say the new jobs pay less on average than the old ones, even in the manufacturing sector.
And yeah, GOP and Democratic VSP corporatists have put in place policies that will continue to erode middle class and create more hurdles for working class and poor.
And, these numbers are not still not good at all, crappy actually, compared to average post war recovery, and particularly compared to Clinton years.
But, still good news considering above, and we should hope and pray for more over next nine months, since the jobs market will make a big difference in the election. And only an election can change a lot of the bad stuff mentioned above.
The Moar You Know
@Kola Noscopy: Wondered where you went after yesterday.
Nice new handle. I like it.
rlrr
@Shit for Brains:
Compare private sector job creation so far under Obama with the net private sector job creation during the entire Bush administration and get back to us.
RP
@CT Voter: Many Dems will celebrate this, but it’s not going to get nearly the attention it deserves on leftwing websites or from the few liberal pundits in the media. Look at the departure from Iraq.
chopper
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
yeah.
rlrr
@rlrr:
Hint: http://newsjunkiepost.com/2010/10/08/its-official-more-private-sector-jobs-created-in-2010-than-during-entire-bush-years/
handsmile
@Poopyman: (#56)
My snarkometer may be malfunctioning while reading your reply, but an Obama impeachment effort seems too speculative for alarm.
The relative economic prosperity of the Clinton presidency ironically enabled the grotesque carnival of those impeachment proceedings to unfold. In these economic parlous times, such shenanigans would not be tolerated (apparently I still retain some populist naivete).
The Supreme Court situation, on the other hand, is anything but speculative. What another far-right Justice could do to destroy this country is a terrible and all too plausible prospect. That John Roberts is likely to be chief justice of the Court for the rest of my lifetime is horrible enough.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Seriously, so many complete assholes in here…..
You literally can’t ask for more information before having an opinion, if on the surface it looks good for Obama. That’s fucking pathetic, actually. I’m not even saying it ISN’T good news. All I did was ask for more information. And that was enough to get ripped to shreds by some in here. Fucking ridiculous.
Reminds me of this mindset:
Wingnut: See, I told you they found WMD’s in Iraq! Go Bush!
Liberal: um, but those were antiquated, already destroyed weapons from a decade ago
Wingnut: you just hate america
jl
@rlrr:
Seconded. Note in graph at link that employment gains better after recovery from deepest post WWII recession under Obama, than after piddly little GW Bush recession in 2001.
Employment, All Employees: Total nonfarm (PAYEMS)
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/PAYEMS?cid=32305
Even half baked and watered down Democratic policies doing better than GW and GOP medicine so far.
Mr Stagger Lee
September, October, and November’s rates will be the ones to watch. That is when the people start caring about the GE.
Veritas
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Don’t try to talk sense into ObambiBots, FUIB. If they see even the slightest thing that may benefit their Lord and Savior, they’ll jump all over it, and snap angrily at fair-minded and rational observers that attempt to point out the truth.
rlrr
@jl:
People who get their information from Fox “News” and talk radio are complete unaware of this…
Chris
@Schlemizel:
Enough liberal demographics (i.e. especially Hispanics) will continue to grow and opposition to the conservative base will be enough to keep them liberal, that we can actually start electing people who believe in a functional government and in using it to solve the nation’s problems, you mean. Maybe.
And then you have to hope that we manage to pry power from the conservatives’ hands without a backlash that ruins the country. They’re already into the vote-suppressing business, and they’re only going to get more desperate if the number of liberal voters goes up.
Mnemosyne
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Shorter Fed Up in Brooklyn: I can’t be bothered to actually look up answers to any of the questions I’m asking, so I’m just going to assume it must be bad news.
ETA:
And you need someone else to spoon-feed that information to you because … ?
rlrr
@jl:
Private sector job growth during Bush’s 8 years was anemic at best, despite the tax cuts and two wars…
WaterGirl
@PurpleGirl: I know a great website – it’s the best thing I’ve seen for crafting resumes and cover letters. I can post the link if you are interested.
AxelFoley
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
And yet, you love to grace us with your presence.
scav
Not really paying attention, but is this another of the threads that has devolved into a bunch of unconvincing K-Tel ads congratulating each other on their feeble attempts at believing their own pay-per-view BS? Saw enough of the usual suspects on the fast scrollby. It’s like an AI petri-dish in here.
PurpleGirl
@WaterGirl: Yes, I am interested. Thank you for your response.
Mnemosyne
@PeakVT:
I disagree with you about Lugar — the Tea Partiers in Indiana are champing at the bit to get rid of him and put a “real” Republican in his seat. Given the quality of the senatorial candidates the Tea Party has championed (Angle, O’Donnell, etc.) I don’t know that you can say for sure that a Republican would keep that seat.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
I have a friend who was unemployed for a while, collecting a lousy $365/week in UI benefits, while living in NYC. You can’t survive in NYC on that little amount of money. So she was FORCED to take a $600/week job she hated, with no benefits, which had her working 16 hours a day. She was miserable. It was awful. But she took it out of desperation. She didn’t celebrate that job, nor think it was good news. She hated it. It was awful. But she HAD to take it, in order to tread fucking water for a few more weeks.
She used to have a high paying job she loved, with full benefits and a retirement plan.
Personally, I find it hard to celebrate that situation. Of course, it could have been worse. She could have had no job offer at all. I get that. But a shitty thing isn’t suddenly worth celebrating because it could have been worse in my opinion.
Paul_D
@Veritas:
Try harder, Veritard;
US Unemployment Rate (BLS)
January 2001; 4.1%
January 2009; 7.6%
-Not one net job in two full terms. Zero.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@Mnemosyne:
I didn’t assume it was bad news. Jesus fucking Christ. I asked the question. IS IT GOOD NEWS? Do we know enough information? Again, I would love to celebrate this information. I would love to give a standing ovation to Obama if it is as good as it looks on the SURFACE. I just don’t know. Why is that such a horrifying position to take?
And honestly, I have no idea where to start looking for that info, which is why I asked the question. Apologies for asking a question. Clearly, I deserve much wrath….
JPL
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: I agree that not all jobs are created equally but if the economy keeps improving there will be better opportunities. This has nothing to do with being an obat. If the numbers were worse, what would you say?
Omnes Omnibus
@ Fed Up: Several people answered you with opinions as to why, at least in their opinions, this is good, if not great, news. You have chosen not to acknowledge those responses and focus instead on those suspect your motives. If you actually want a dialogue, you might consider interacting with those who posted a substantive answer to your question. Or you could act like a dick with ears. It’s up to you.
dww44
@rob!: Or, you can do as CNBC just did. Had Hilda Solis on for a brief interview on the good jobs news, immediately followed by a live interview with Sen. Bob Corker from Tenn that was a LOT longer about how the President gets no credit for the positive jobs report. It’s thanks to the, wait for it, PRIVATE SECTOR.
Of course, no pundit at CNBC dares to take him to task. They just let his views stand. The MSM is bound and determined to return all the levers of power to the GOP. This is why the outlook is so dim for the Congress. The only way that changes if we fight for it out here where we live and if we take every opportunity to challenge the MSM pro GOP meme. Which I just did at the CNBC website. But, I don’t twitter or text, so email was my only option.
japa21
It isn’t a question of whether or not this is good news, pretty indisputable that it is. Also indisputable is that it still is a long ways to go, so it isn’t great news.
Of course, people who see it as good news must be Obamabots, or whatever. They can’t possibly be thinking this is good news for the country because it shows some positive movement in the recovery. Or they can’t possibly think it is great news because these new jobs have signficant meaning for those that were out of work and are now employed. And they can’t possibly think it is good news because along with other indicators, there is real reason for optimism. No, the only reason they believe it is good news is because it may be good for Obama’s reelection chances. After all, we Obamabots don’t really care baout other people or the country. Only what is good for our Lord and Master.
WaterGirl
@PurpleGirl: Here’s the link for the site for writing better resumes and cover letters.
Click on the first two links under the heading “Get a Resume”.
I hired a number of people for my group when I worked at the university, so I know from personal experience that it can take less than a minute to decide which pile a person’s application goes into.
I don’t do this for a living, but I have helped a number of friends and relatives with resumes and cover letters, and I would be glad to take a look at yours if you think that would be helpful. I know from experience how un-fun it is to work on your resume and cover letters, so it can be less bad if you have someone on your side helping you. Let me know. (I won’t be at all offended if you don’t take me up on my offer.)
ruemara
I posted this article to FB, had it shared by someone who thanked me because he felt he was the only one finding anything good to say about the Prez amoungst his liberal friends. Within 3 hours of his post, the first comment was someone saying that while she can recognize good policy, she was sick and tired of being told things like this because it did not detract from his failings and besides it was just free trade agreements that improved exports which was costing US jobs. So I tossed in this jobs report to the thread. I see that the theme of the day for the perpetually disappointed is “But how do we really know this is good news” and “I’m not even talking about Obama, I’m talking about his failings. DON’T SILENCE ME!” I suppose if we’re not fighting over a nomination, we have to fight over the actual party rep, in a year when we should be united and focused on Senate/House races. Good god, I can’t stand people.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@JPL:
Whatever the numbers were, I’d want more information before making a judgement. Again, I would be very happy to celebrate this and give Obama a standing ovation. I just need more information first. Why this is so outrageous is beyond my comprehension…..
John M. Burt
As Merlin might say, “Good news for some . . . a nightmare for others!”
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@japa21:
Funny how you guys are now the victims in this little argument. I asked a simple question, got ripped to shreds and now you are the victims. lol. Classic.
Citizen Alan
@Schlemizel:
IIRC, there are seven Senate seats in play and we have to hold either 3 or 4 of them to hold the Senate.
fasteddie9318
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
It’s really not. A net gain of 200,000 jobs (that’s 212,000 new private sector jobs minus 12,000 lost public sector jobs) can’t be spun as anything other than “200,000 people who didn’t have jobs before last month now have jobs.” Well, it can be, but you have to really want to push an agenda to do it.
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
A shitty thing that’s better than the alternative is still, you know, a better thing, unless, again, you have an agenda to push.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@Omnes Omnibus:
lol. Yes, I’m the dick. Ask a simple question, get ripped to shreds, defend myself = I’m the dick. Got it. Makes perfect sense.
Meanwhile, those offering answers as to why it’s good news regardless are still making assumptions based on a lack of information. There are numerous reasons why these numbers may not be good. There are numerous reasons why they could be good, or even great. We just don’t know enough. That’s my point.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@fasteddie9318:
Ah yes, I have a secret agenda… you got me.
balconesfault
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: I have a friend who was unemployed for a while, collecting a lousy $365/week in UI benefits, while living in NYC. You can’t survive in NYC on that little amount of money. So she was FORCED to take a $600/week job she hated, with no benefits, which had her working 16 hours a day. She was miserable. It was awful. But she took it out of desperation. She didn’t celebrate that job, nor think it was good news. She hated it. It was awful. But she HAD to take it, in order to tread fucking water for a few more weeks.
Which is, by my assessment, better than going underwater, coming home to find the landlord has put your stuff on the curb and padlocked the door, going without food for days, etc.
Or, I guess, moving to somewhere where you can scrape by on $365 a week.
Nobody is saying this is proof that we’re finished needing more stimulus, in particular. But it’s still in and of itself good news.
WaterGirl
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: So if the headline had said “Another 200,000 jobs lost”, would you be thinking that might be a good thing, because surely some of the people in those jobs had wished they had a better job in the first place?
Danny
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Sorry to hear about your friend, but that’s irrelevant to the good news of accelerating job creation. Eventually, a stronger job market will hopefully put her in a better negotiating position, but it will take a while.
The PPACA – once fully implemented two years from now – will also put her in a MUCH better negotiating position – as she won’t be nearly as dependent on staying in an underpaid job with poor benefits that is a poor fit for her.
The payroll tax cut should also put some more money in her pocket each month, so lets all help the President and democrats in congress get that renewed for the full year.
And let’s pray to God that the republicans don’t take control of congress and the white house this fall – since they’ve vowed to raise taxes on your friend, give the money to millionaires and further cut services that economically vulnerable people like your friend depend upon!
Mnemosyne
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Yes, because people who aren’t assuming it was automatically bad news always start their comment with:
And, yes, it sucks that your friend couldn’t find a better job after being on unemployment for so long, but your anecdote seem to imply that she would have been better off staying on unemployment than taking the job that she did. Is that actually how she feels?
(And I make about $600 a week in Los Angeles, so thanks for implying that it’s poverty-level wages that no one could possibly survive on in an expensive urban area. Though I do at least get good benefits.)
redheadedefemme
@Veritas: You’re going on the pie filter, kiddo.
Enjoy your meaningless pie-eating comments from now on.
fasteddie9318
OK, since 200,000 fewer people scrambling to survive without jobs is now being defined as Something That Might Be OK, Or Really Terrible, Depending, I Just Don’t Know, can somebody please give me an example of something that could happen that would just be a Good Thing, unambiguously?
Steeplejack
[Deleted after reading further in thread.]
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@japa21:
Okay guys, you win. Everybody crack open the champagne. Lesson learned…..
Larv
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Again, I would be very happy to celebrate this and give Obama a standing ovation. I just need more information first.
Omnes Omnibus
@ Fed Up: Would you rather see these people unemployed? Improvement has to start somewhere. Generally, shitty jobs are better than none. Good jobs are better than shitty. Great are better than good.
My other point stands. You chose to react to the attacks and not interact with the responses. It creates a cycle. It also reinforces suspicions that you are here to pick fights. YMMV.
ruemara
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Your friend should shut it. Sorry, but my dp has been unemployed now for nearly 4 years. I haven’t had a job that payed $600 a week in nearly a decade. I sympathize about doing things you hate, or working super long hours, but I work a writing gig for a better price on food, scrounge for freelance design, take jewelry commissions and work on film and game projects for free in the hope of something striking. It’s been so long since I’ve seen a freaking grand every 2 weeks, I think the last time I was a middle class person was just a dream and if my partner had that $600 a week job, I think we’d crack open the champagne.
@PurpleGirl: I’m going to say what no one will say. Forget the resume. Seriously. Get out and meet people. Hit trade associations, make sure you talk to every contact on your list at least 2x a month. Networking groups, hiring fairs, etc. Meet people and make sure everyone you know understands that you are looking for work. Do not let that drop. I know what you’re going through, and I’ve been watching my partner go through it and he’s stuck in the cycle of creating resumes and waiting for someone to notice him. If it has not worked in 3 years, it is time to change tactics. He won’t hear it and it’s to his detriment. I can’t tell you how sorry I am you’re going down this road, don’t know if it helps that you have a lot of company. Best of luck
slag
@PurpleGirl: Are you doing volunteer work, PurpleGirl? I know doing work for free is not ideal, but it’s a good way to keep active in the community, possibly build networks, and keep your skills alive. And if you’re working with an organization that places a lot of value on its volunteers, they may even offer some more direct help in getting you where you want to go, career-wise.
balconesfault
Japa21:
It isn’t a question of whether or not this is good news, pretty indisputable that it is. Also indisputable is that it still is a long ways to go, so it isn’t great news.
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
(sarcastic mode on) Everybody crack open the champagne.
I think we’ve just defined assholishness.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@Mnemosyne:
Jesus… buzzkill means to halt the celebration. Doesn’t mean I am assuming the news MUST be bad. Merely questioning whether we know enough yet to celebrate. Learn to comprehend. So fucking paranoid, it’s amazing….
Citizen Alan
@Mnemosyne:
Doesn’t matter if the Dems don’t have a credible candidate to run against him. In my district, Alan Nunnelee is a freshman Repuke who voted for Medicare waivers and wants to raise taxes on the bottom 95%. He will more than likely run unopposed because of the grotesque multigenerational helplessness of the state Dems.
handsmile
@Mnemosyne: (#97)
PeakVT may choose to address this as well, but Lugar’s primary challenger, Indiana state treasurer and Tea Party fave Richard Mourdock is not an Angle or O’Donnell. He served as an Indiana state representative and longtime county official before his election as treasurer in 2006. He enjoys state-wide recognition and approval. Whether enough to dislodge Lugar….
The Democratic challenger is US Representative Joe Donnelly who is seeking this Senate seat primarily because his own congressional district has been reconfigured unfavorably for reelection. (A scenario that persuaded Barney Frank not to seek reelection.)
In 2006, Lugar was reelected with 87% of votes cast, with no Democratic opponent. Whether Lugar or Mourdock, Indiana will be represented by two Republican senators (Dan Coats being the other) in the 113th Congress.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@balconesfault:
LOL…. ah yes, once again. I ask a question, get creamed from all sides with numerous sarcastic, nasty comments and when I respond in kind, I’M THE ASSHOLE! Brilliant!
Danny
@fasteddie9318:
Ron Paul legalizing grass?
PeakVT
@Mnemosyne: It’s certainly possible that primary voters would dump Lugar. But polling is thin, so I went with the incumbent. It’s Indiana, and unless Daniels fucks up a lot more, any R would still be a heavy favorite. And the leading contender right now has won statewide office.
ETA: Or, what handsmile said.
balconesfault
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Your question was answered in a dozen coherent ways … and you chose to not engage those responses cogently, but rather dove immediately into victim mode.
Not impressive.
PeakVT
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: You’re not an asshole. You’re a passive-aggressive whiner who can’t take a hint.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@ruemara:
Yes, we’ve been reduced to ripping our fellow victims because we have it worse than them. Perfect. Why not just build a new Roman Coliseum, so we can literally rip each other to shreds while the criminals who caused this mess watch from the rafters.
My friend struggled and fought for many years, barely scraping by in a very competitive field in order to make a good career for herself. That career was torn away from her and she was reduced to working at a job she hates for shitty money and no benefits in NYC. $600/week in NYC is shitty money, fyi. But because you have had it worse, she should just “shut it.” Brilliant. This is where we are now.
Danny
I’m gonna have to wait for more information, but could this be good news for John McCain? Just asking questions here – don’t shoot the messenger!
balconesfault
@Danny: heh – got there long ago! (see 36)
ruemara
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Yeah, she should. I worked hard in a very competitive field, got sick and lost. I have also worked for low pay and no bennies in NYC. She is doing a hell of a lot better than people with NO JOB. This the fact that is lost on you and her. It is better to not have NO WORK, NO PAY. God, do you live in a vacuum? You think I’m ripping her because I know that it’s better to have an income than to be sitting in her apartment wondering when she’ll be heading to a shelter? Jesus Christ. 1. Move to Brooklyn. 2. Working is better than dying.
fasteddie9318
@Danny: How long before Big Marijuana puts all the little mom and pop weed shops out of business in favor of their homogenized crap? No thank you.
Nom de Plume
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: If we had lost 200k jobs last month you sure as hell wouldn’t be “just asking” innocent lil’ ol’ questions, you’d be screaming DOOOOOM at the top of your fucking lungs. Either the numbers are to be trusted, or they’re not. Make up your fucking mind. And stop crying.
John M. Burt
There is a time when it is perfectly reasonable to be “just asking questions”, and there is a time to quit JAQing off.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@ruemara:
Yup, this is how far we’ve fallen. Sad. Of course, someone in worse shape than you could say the same thing. And you’d say, yeah, I should just shut it, because I, um, don’t have terminal cancer. Then another person can turn to that person and tell them to shut it, because at least their entire family didn’t die in a fire! And so on… brilliant.
Lawnguylander
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
This.
slag
@ruemara:
Not to get all personal–or, more accurately–feel free to ignore this comment because it’s too personal, but has your partner explained why he won’t hear it? Sometimes, when one’s confidence is in the crapper, it’s easier to go through the standard impersonal application process rather than to admit to people face-to-face that you need help in finding a job. It’s as if not saying it out loud makes it not real or something.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@Nom de Plume:
Wow, where to begin. First, you assume I would say something different based on a hypothetical, then use that assumption to demand I “make up my mind.” THAT is fucking brilliant. Seriously. Brilliant.
fasteddie9318
@ Fed Up: Look, this is a simple thing. Just try to imagine how you’d be reacting if there had been a net loss of 200,000 private sector jobs last month. If your reaction would be “well, maybe this is kind of a good thing, because those jobs were probably low paying with no benefits and the people who worked them might have really hated them,” then you’re at least on consistent, if bizarre, footing.
If, however, and I suspect this is more accurate, you’d be flipping out about the cratering economy and all those poor folks now struggling to find work, then you’re basically full of shit here whether you realize it or not.
lonesomerobot
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: when a dozen (yes, I counted) other commenters are telling you, either politely or otherwise, that you are acting the fool and you choose to blame all of them rather than — maybe — shut up about it…
Well, can you finish that sentence yourself? Judging from your comments here, probably not.
Danny
@fasteddie9318:
Hipster!
balconesfault
@fasteddie9318: Just like Pace put all the small salsa companies out of business with its homogenized crap?
Oh – wait. When I go to the grocery store, I find about 2 dozen different small brand labels looking out at me.
And Anheuser-Busch and Miller and Coors certainly made sure that no craft beers would ever have a foothold in the market, didn’t they!
Cain
@PurpleGirl
Have you tried LinkedIn? In general, as someone else has said you need to do social networking. You need to have an in. Also, if possible check in to job retraining to see if you can do a job that is more in demand. (nursing?)
fasteddie9318
@balconesfault: I realize that weed legalization is No Laughing Matter, but you might want to check the context of the thing you’re replying to.
Also too, the corn and red pepper salsa at Trader Joes is The Bomb, or would be The Bomb if their chocolate covered pretzels were not already The Bomb.
The Moar You Know
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: That’s you. December 20, 2011.
liberal
@PeakVT:
Perhaps, though Dean Baker doesn’t seem very impressed.
Larv
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
I have no idea what your anecdote about your friend has to do with anything. Her getting a job is somehow “bad” because it’s not as good as the one she once had? Being on unemployment wasn’t even worse? By these standards the only “good” outcome is if everybody gets back the jobs they had before the economy went south (and a pony!). It’s a pretty clear example of allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good. Yes, the economy still kind of sucks. But the available data suggest that it’s getting better. This is fairly unequivocal good news. Questioning that makes you look silly, and given your history here, makes people ask what your motives might be for asking silly questions.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@fasteddie9318:
Your hypothetical makes no sense. Let’s say those 200k jobs we added, hypothetically, were all taken out of desperation, for a few extra bucks more than they were getting in UI, to tread water for a bit longer… that wouldn’t be good news to me at all. But since they took those jobs out of desperation, it would be worse news if they lost them. In other words, there is a scenario where both are bad, but one is worse and neither worth celebrating.
And I have to say this for the 5th time. On the surface, this looks good. I hope it’s as good as it looks. I want it to be as good as it looks. I would be very happy if it was as good as it looks. I will celebrate if it’s as good as it looks. I just want more information. A crime in these parts, apparently.
balconesfault
@fasteddie9318: Oooops .. misfunctional irony detector this am …
OzoneR
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Redistricting and the Senate elections this year are mostly in red states.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@Larv:
This shouldn’t be so difficult. There are degrees of bad. It’s bad to take a shitty job you hate our of sheer desperation; it’s worse to have no job. Neither is good news.
slag
@The Moar You Know: Ouch!
balconesfault
@The Moar You Know: nice catch …
One doesn’t need to be an Obamabot to recognize antipathy, cloaked as it may be.
OzoneR
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
One problem at a time. The are low pay/low benefit jobs and that’s the next issue we have to tackle.
fasteddie9318
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
So it’s bad, and we shouldn’t celebrate (was anybody celebrating? where’s the champagne and spinach dip?), but it’s better than the alternative, which seems like a good thing, but it’s not a good thing, it’s a bad thing, but less bad than the status quo, so we should all be sad and feel sadness.
What level of employment would the new jobs have to reach to be good? If all 200,000 are corporate officer positions, can we be happy then? Or should we reserve judgment unless they’re all COO-level or higher?
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@liberal:
Golly, you mean Dean Baker is digging deeper and finding the news isn’t quite as good as it appears? Strange.
dogwood
@The Moar You Know:
I’ll bet you $10,000 Fed Up won’t respond to that revealing gem.
liberal
@handsmile:
While otherwise I like Ginsburg a lot, the fact she didn’t resign sometime relatively soon after Obama took office is just unforgivable. What the hell was she thinking? All I can chalk it up to is some kind of egotism.
balconesfault
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Your hypothetical makes no sense. Let’s say those 200k jobs we added, hypothetically, were all taken out of desperation, for a few extra bucks more than they were getting in UI, to tread water for a bit longer… that wouldn’t be good news to me at all.
Would to me. Because as I said long, long ago – lots of good things spring from being employed, besides simply a paycheck. Keeping job skills current … making business contacts so you’re in the right place when the next opportunity arises … improving your resume … a sense of productivity (even work in a crappy job is better than more hours a day to engage in self-loathing).
You just do not accept these things, best I can tell. Which makes this whole discussion moot. You’re going to keep screaming for the perfect, while many others keep cautioning that the perfect should not be the enemy of the good.
OzoneR
@The Moar You Know: Actually that’s David Michael Green, who was a professor of mine at Hofstra University
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@fasteddie9318:
Wonderfully sarcastic, strawman-filled post! Did I say we should react one way or another? No. I said before we have any reaction, one way or another, perhaps we should know more. When did knowing more information become the third rail in here?
AxelFoley
@Larv:
Thanks for that link, Larv.
So, Fed Up, it’s not about Obama for you, huh?
Lying fucker. You assholes always give yourselves away.
slag
@fasteddie9318:
God no! We don’t need any more of those people!
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@balconesfault: God I love it when people pull out the old “perfect is the enemy of the good” canard, when all I am saying is, we need more information in order to determine what the superficial numbers really mean. Wow! What a perfectionist! Digging below the surface? Such a perfectionist! An idealist!
fasteddie9318
@liberal:
Seconded. I get that her stepping down now would cause a big confirmation shitstorm that nobody wants, but she had two years of a large D Senate majority to step aside and let Obama put a younger justice in there.
OzoneR
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Not to sound like one of them, but this is different from what my grandparents did when they came to this country how exactly?
Do you think they WANTED to mine coal? Do you think they got on a boat in Naples talking saying “Can’t wait to mine me some coal?” They thought the streets were paved with gold and they’d be living like kings. Do you think they were happy to discover they had to toil underground for millionaires? (This is why they created unions btw)
Life is full of disappointments, your friend’s dilemma is not uncommon and certainly is not new. I wish her luck, I really do, cause we’ve all been there
PeakVT
@liberal: Baker’s main point is that bobbleheads and journamalists shouldn’t be declaring it teh bestest nuz evah! It’s not. It’s good news, not great news.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@AxelFoley:
No, it isn’t about Obama. Again, if one wants more information than merely superficial numbers, it’s automatically an attack on Obama. Do you hear yourself? If those underlying numbers prove their is reason to celebrate, I will gladly do so. I will gladly give Obama all the credit in the world. Why is that so hard to understand? The paranoia in here regarding Obama is insane.
Can't Be Bothered
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Fuck off.
balconesfault
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: all I am saying is, we need more information in order to determine what the superficial numbers really mean
No – we don’t. Not if all we’re trying to do is decide if this is good news or not.
If 200,000 people who did not have the option of taking a job now do … that is good news. Hell – maybe 500,000 people had the option of taking a job, and 300,000 passed on them because they were too low paying, benefits were too low, etc.
That 200,000 people who wanted jobs were able to take them – that’s good. Perhaps not perfect. Good.
Why is this concept so hard for you to grasp?
liberal
@PeakVT:
I think the most charitable reading of Baker in the direction you’re intending would be “barely good news.”
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@OzoneR:
Um, what?
fasteddie9318
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Let’s see: “the news isn’t quite as good as it appears” versus “is it possible we are celebrating a GOP victory?”; there seems like there should be some daylight between those two arguments, but maybe I’m just drunk off all the champagne I’ve been guzzling since the report came out.
Baker is right, this is a mediocre number, but it’s a hell of a lot better than the previous two months even without the courier jobs, and it’s an election year so of course it’s going to get spun as something great. Baker’s “meh” does not give cover to your “are we sure this isn’t a horrible thing?”
liberal
@balconesfault:
Of course you have to dip into the numbers. For example, if you look at the Dean Baker link I provided, there’s at least some reason to doubt the numbers are good. (By “some,” I don’t mean convincingly so, but at least some evidence.)
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@balconesfault:
Well, I guess Dean Baker should shut his pie hole too…. what does he know anyway….
OzoneR
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Also $600 a week? I live in NYC and I make $554 a week. Don’t act like I don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about.
slag
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: You need to check your biases.
This is “good” news. It’s not “perfect” news. It’s not the “bestest news that ever was or ever will be”. But it is, as mistermix said, “good” news.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@fasteddie9318:
God, this is painful.
We know a major part of the GOP agenda is to:
a) destroy high pay/good benefit public sector jobs, and
b) replace them with low pay/bad benefit private sector jobs
Right? We can agree there?
Okay. So, if the jobs reports we are seeing accomplish the following:
a) destroy high pay/good benefit public sector jobs, and
b) replace them with low pay/bad benefit private sector jobs
Then are we not seeing the GOP agenda taking shape? Yes or no?
WaterGirl
@balconesfault:
Because he doesn’t want to grasp it.
See the block quote of his December comments posted by The Moar You Know upthread:
So much time wasted on this disingenuous ass.
OzoneR
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
He should know that job growth coming out of a recession hasn’t been 350k-400k for like 5 recessions now.
He should also know that these jobs;
would be part of a seasonally-adjusted number.
Brian R.
“Obambi still has the worst job creation record of any President in history.”
Are you retarded? He doesn’t even have the worst job creation record of presidents in the 21st century.
Bush oversaw a net gain of 1.1 million jobs over 8 years.
Obama topped that in one year.
OzoneR
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
No, because that’s not the GOP agenda
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Um, guys, I never wrote that quote being attributed to me.
Mnemosyne
@balconesfault:
Not to mention that it has been widely reported that employers weren’t even considering resumes from unemployed people, so in this case, having A job is more important than staying on unemployment so you can find your dream job (or at least a job similar to the one you were laid off from).
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@OzoneR:
Now we’re actually having a debate on the underlying data! Isn’t that nice? Everybody okay? Nobody got hurt, right?
OzoneR
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
That shut you up.
Larv
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Bullshit. Your tortured attempt to deny that “better” and “good” have any relationship is fairly amusing, but transparently silly.
As an example, I work in HIV research. If a patient on a new drug regimen experiences a drop in viral load and an increase in their CD4 count, that’s good news, no? But wait! They’re still infected with HIV, so by your logic that can’t be good. The only good news would be if the virus just magically disappeared overnight and left them just the way they were.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@OzoneR: Yes, it shut me up because I have no idea what your point was.
Davis X. Machina
@fasteddie9318: Just try to imagine how you’d be reacting if there had been a net loss of 200,000 private sector jobs last month.
Well, I can imagine: Nach Romney, uns!
OzoneR
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
you’re really making this too easy
The Moar You Know
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: God, where have I heard that line recently?
Yeah, that was it. I provided links, too. You said what you said.
OzoneR
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
I rest my case.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@Larv:
Brilliant analogy. Except it should go like this:
Perfectly healthy person goes to doctor.
Doctor says he has terminal cancer.
Second opinion says, no cancer, only HIV.
Good news? The dude thought he was perfectly healthy a week earlier. You think he’s gonna say thank god I only have HIV! Nope.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@The Moar You Know:
Dude, prove I wrote that. I didn’t.
Larv
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
No, but you quoted it approvingly and at great length. If I quoted a long screed on the economy from Eric Cantor with the sole comment “I’m with him,” people would justifiably suspect that I’m a Republican.
Marc
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
You’re looking for bad news. Period. You know it, we know it. You have a posting history here that supports this.
Now if you had some evidence of a problem that would be fine. But you don’t; you’re simply fishing for it with leading questions.
PurpleGirl
Part of my problem in networking is that I stutter. It is difficult for me to cold call anyone. Early on in my unemployment I talked to quite a few people who I knew from various past jobs — most of them had also been let go and a few of them had moved out of the New York area. (Not an option for me because I don’t drive and have an sight problem that precludes driving.) I looked into joining an industry group but I didn’t have the money. Thanks to everyone who is responding with ideas.
Hill Dweller
@Brian R.: Republicans have always countered that stat by pointing out Bush…wait for it…inherited a recession. They always start his job creating numbers in Jun. 2003.
Conversely and hypocritically, they pretend every job lost after Obama was sworn in is his fault.
slag
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: You’re right, here’s you:
You didn’t write it because…well…why would you when you can just cut, paste, and unequivocally endorse?
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@Larv:
lol. Wait, so now I didn’t write it? Guys, get your stories straight. Meanwhile, what’s ignored is as I have stated numerous times, I am not saying this is bad news. I am saying I need to know more before celebrating. How can that be seen as some sort of massive anti-Obama agenda, unless you wear a fucking tinfoil hat? I will gladly celebrate it, once I have adequate confirmation. Why is wanting to know more detailed information prior to having an opinion to abhorrent to you? It literally makes no sense.
Mnemosyne
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Yes, because when most people halt a celebration, it’s because they’re expecting the subsequent news to be even better than what’s already been announced.
Do you have any acquaintance with how human beings actually speak and interact with each other?
The Moar You Know
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: It’s got your name on it. Were you hacked?
Just to repeat:
Posted by you. December 20, 2011. Anyone can find it for themselves. I even helpfully posted a link upthread.
But wait…there’s a lot more. Should we start exhuming the archives?
PeakVT
Attn everyone who asked for better trolls: I think we finally got one. It writes grammatically correct sentences and everything.
Irving
@OzoneR: In order to be a Republican these days, you have to pretend really really hard that GWB never existed. That’s why dear, sweet little Veritas is confused. He was in a fugue state all those years.
slag
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Yes. You are the only clear-eyed realist here amidst a bunch of credulous lemmings. Why doesn’t anyone get that? It’s so obvious!
Larv
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
WTF? That’s the worst analogy in the history of bad analogies. In case you missed it, the patient in this analogy is either the economy or our hypothetical unemployed person. The economy has not been “perfectly healthy” for several years. An unemployed person is also somewhat less than perfectly healthy (for the purposes of the analogy). So your attempt to reframe the analogy fails utterly due to lack of actual analogousness.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Guys, it’s no secret I am no fan of Obama. But that has nothing to do with my position on this thread. As I have said over and over and over and over again, I HOPE it’s as good as it looks on the surface. I would be glad to give Obama credit where credit is due. I simply don’t have enough information. Why is wanting more information before rendering judgement somehow evidence of a conspiracy?
Mnemosyne
@PurpleGirl:
Are there websites or message boards for your industry? I know that there a lot for writers (like, say, the Freelancer’s Union). That might help you get some name recognition without the stress of having to speak face-to-face.
Sometimes industry groups will have a reduced rate for students and people like that — if you can afford it, it might be worth finding out if they’d be willing to let you join at that rate rather than the full rate.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@Larv: Ugh… we’ve jumped the shark here with HIV analogies. I mean, we can debate analogies or actually look at the relevant data, which is all I have been suggesting.
PurpleGirl
WaterGirl, I’ll be responding to your last comment when I return from a meeting with my (sole) typing client. (This is a person I’ve been typing for for some 20 years. She’s a writer and has never really learned how to use a computer for writing. I knew her in my last job and began working with her then.)
colby
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
“that wouldn’t be good news to me at all”
Then you need to seriously work on your definition of “good news”. In your hypothetical, people who didn’t have jobs now do. People are, by your own terms, getting paid more than they did before. That is an unambiguous GOOD thing. Is there an unambiguously BETTER thing out there? Almost assuredly. But that doesn’t change the fact that thing in front of us is GOOD.
” I just want more information.”
Well, no, you don’t, you’re also speculating on what that “more information” might be- and your speculation defies basic logic. It’s one thing to say “Let’s wait for the February revisions, maybe it’s not really 200,000 jobs”. THAT makes sense, that WOULD be a situation where “maybe this isn’t such good news”. But “wait, maybe these jobs aren’t as good as other jobs out there” DOESN’T make sense. Even if people have gotten out of unemployment via crummy jobs, they’ve still gotten out of unemployment, and that’s still a good thing.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@slag:
lol. I guess so…
slag
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: This is ridiculous. If you think people thought the economy was perfectly healthy before we added jobs, you’re an idiot! And even if we did think it was perfectly healthy before we added jobs, that’s STILL good news. Freak.
Mnemosyne
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Yes, you weren’t trying to say anything about Obama. That’s why you mentioned Obama in your comment:
The only other person who mentioned Obama before you posted was speculating on this helping his re-election chances, not giving him credit. The only person to bring up Obama was you, and now you’re shrieking about the unfair attacks from Obots.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@colby:
Okay, we disagree on what constitutes “good” news in certain instances. It appears we have a glass half full/half empty disagreement.
fasteddie9318
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
No, for fuck’s sake, because the GOP agenda right now is for unemployment to go up, and job creation to tank, so they have a better chance of winning the fucking White House in November. When the converse happens, it is not good news for the fucking GOP. Are you seriously this dense? This has to be an act, right?
And please, please, do me a favor and tell the 200,000 newly employed folks that it would be better for the country, and also better for them but they’re too dumb to see it, if they were still unemployed. That will go over well.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@Mnemosyne:
Sigh, you got me. This was all a huge conspiracy to kneecap Obama. (Note to self: never mention Obama again, or else you have no chance at a reasonable conversation)
colby
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
It’s not; unfortunately, that’s not what you did. In fact, in your first post, you didn’t ask for more information at all, all you did was lay out a scenario in which this was super-secret-double-stuffed-oreo BAD NEWS and said “HOW DO WE KNOW THIS ISN’T TRUE?”
That’s not asking for more info, tt’s actually a classic example of the “it would be irresponsible NOT to speculate” bullshit. And that isn’t changed by the fact that you’re now trying to back off of it and claim you’re “just asking questions”.
IM
@Davis X. Machina:
Godwin!
And it is “Nach Hitler, wir!”
eemom
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
why don’t you go get the fucking information you so desparately need and then form your conclusion?
You could have been doing that the whole time you’ve been jerking off on this thread — and then you might have had an actual, like, point to prove.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@fasteddie9318:
A long term goal of the GOP is to replace good pay/good benefit public sector jobs with low pay/low benefit private sector jobs. Anyone who denies this is a loon.
dogwood
What is it about some people that they assume their internet pissing contests are entertaining and enlightening to everyone reading. I enjoy reading many of the commenters here, but I don’t give a rat’s ass about the Fed Up’s the Kola Noscopy’s etc. Yet once they drop in, a small group of formerly sane people, drop everything and start responding only to the assholes. You might assume that a thread with over 200 comments suggests a lively discussion, but as is increasingly the case here, you’d be wrong. The thread died with the first response to Fed Up around #37. I realize I’m only speaking for myself, but I can’t believe there aren’t at least a few other BJ readers who are finding this pattern increasingly tedious.
colby
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
I don’t think that’s very accurate. If a guy is thirsty, and his glass was empty, then no, sorry, a half-full glass is unambiguously good news. Would it be better if it were all full? Yes. But that doesn’t make half-full “bad news”.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Yes, I’m an asshole for simply stating I want more detailed information in order to determine the proper response to these numbers. Brilliant.
Wee Bey
@Larv:
Thank you, for exposing a troll.
fasteddie9318
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: THE short-term goal of the GOP is to defeat Obama in November, and they’re counting on low employment and a cratered economy to help them do it. The only person apparently too stupid to see this is you, so for the sake of parallel construction I’ll say that anyone who denies this is Fed Up In Brooklyn.
colby
@dogwood: Sometimes it’s tedious, sometimes, I dunno, it’s fun to feed the trolls. The good news is, there’s always other threads- hell, complete other websites- for when I get sick of the arguing.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@colby:
From my very first post:
“Now, I don’t know if this is the case, but shouldn’t we know more before we decide if it’s good news or not?”
Dumbass.
Larv
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
I never said you did. I just linked to the comment where you quoted it as an example of your mindset. And “I didn’t write it” is a pretty weak dodge. You clearly owned it. Man up and admit that, at least.
I stand by my analogy. If you care to retract yours, however, that would be understandable.
No you haven’t. You started off by speculating, without any data whatsoever, that what appears to be good employment news might actually be bad news (taking as a given that most people here would view a “GOP victory” as bad news), and insinuating that maybe Obama got punked by the GOP. Given your posting history, most people aren’t going to take that as an honest quest for knowledge, but as an attempt to further justify your dislike of Obama.
fasteddie9318
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Also too, you know how you make it so that private sector jobs aren’t so low pay and low benefit? One important step is to reduce the pool of available workers who are desperate enough to take those kinds of jobs.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Guys, you realize I am a troll simply for asking for more detailed information before rendering judgement on this bit of news? Do you hear yourselves? The reality? My question should have been accepted as reasonable. Instead it was seen as some massive conspiracy and attacked. And yet I’M THE TROLL. Amazing.
Asking for more information = troll
This is how far we’ve fallen here apparently.
dogwood
@colby:
It’s fun for you. And increasingly there aren’t other threads. This is becoming the pattern on every thread at this site.
The Moar You Know
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Again – and remember, this is YOUR post:
Doesn’t sound like you’re the kind of guy who wants to hear any news that makes Obama look good. You might pardon me for being a bit skeptical of your motives.
Plus, there’s all that other stuff you posted. Makes this look a bit tame, frankly.
slag
@dogwood: Well, I can’t speak for everyone, but my excuse is that I just assumed this thread was dead and thus open for non-sequiturized entertainment.
fasteddie9318
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
As eemom said 15 posts ago, why don’t you go get some fucking information instead of continuing to waste time arguing with us closed-minded lemming idiots?
colby
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Yes, that sentences proves my point exactly, thank you!
slag
@Larv:
Maybe what s/he meant to say was that s/he didn’t read what s/he cut and pasted before endorsing it. Maybe s/he thought it said:
It wouldn’t be the first time such a mistake has been made.
The Moar You Know
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Who’s this “we”?
Here’s another blast from Fed Up’s past:
There’s lots more.
Pretty sure you’re not on my side, ratfucker.
colby
@dogwood: Well, sorry- I don’t check every thread on this site, so I can’t say how much that’s the case. But there’s always the option of not reading the comment threads, or going to another website, so again, when I DON’T find this to be fun, I don’t have to suffer it.
Wee Bey
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
You are an asshole. You want more information, go find it and quit trolling this thread.
chopper
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
this is the great thing about quoting others and saying ‘I AGREE WITH THIS’. when you get called on it, you can run and hide behind ‘i didn’t actually say anything!’
buffoon.
Yossarian
“My question should have been accepted as reasonable.”
But it wasn’t, and so it wasn’t. Pretty simple, really.
IM
By the way, if only 12,000 public sector jobs were lost in december, the decline in public secotr jobs seems to slow down.
slag
@dogwood:
There’s truth in this. Everyone has their threshhold, of course. But I’ve noticed mine being breached more and more. In this situation, I’m just glad the trolling is actually topic-related. And relatively coherent.
Judas Escargot
@Veritas:
Republicans eat the seed corn under Bush, then blame Obama for the bad harvest that follows. Nice trick, but you can only get away with it once or twice.
Your party will be extinct by 2030.
colby
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
That’s not what you did. You laid out a stupid hypothetical scenario (that no one else even accepts WOULD constitute bad news), then asked a rhetorical question about how we should investigate to make sure your stupid hypothetical scenario ISN’T true. That’s not even demanding that someone prove a negative, it’s asking that someone disprove a fun make-em-up.
Seriously, finding evidence that disproves every nutty theory you can have about these jobs numbers? That’s not the job of anyone here.
Wee Bey
As I type this, Emmy Rossum is blowing me.
Do you all think this qualifies as good news?
slag
@Wee Bey: Probably not for Emmy Rossum, I’m guessing. But I don’t know who that is, so it’s really not for me to say.
OzoneR
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
apparently jobs are HIV now.
The Moar You Know
@Wee Bey: Fuck yeah.
Can't Be Bothered
Hey what’s going on in this thre–Oh, Fed Up In Brooklyn is still jerking off. Great.
Marc
@Wee Bey:
I’m gonna bookmark that one. It’s absolute gold. If “Fed Up” doesn’t like to see his approving quotes, how about this direct statement by him in the same thread (#21), in response to a question of whether we should vote for Gingrich or Perry instead of Obama:
————————————————–
Fed Up in Brooklyn:
“Either one is fine. Also need to make sure the GOP has a filibuster-proof majority on the Senate and a big advantage in the House. Currently, we have a right wing agenda, with Obama getting the blame. Give them all the power and when they flush what remains of the country into the toilet, perhaps then “conservatism” will finally be rejected and a real progressive movement can gain a foothold. Otherwise, the slow-motion destruction will continue well into the future before hitting the eventual bottom. I say get it over with.”
————————————————
Can't Be Bothered
@Wee Bey:
Well if she used to give blow jobs in the public sector and is now forced to do so in a private position with shitty benefits, then this is undeniably something we should all worry very much about.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Ozone, I didn’t bring up the HIV analogy. Someone else did. I responded to it. It was a dumb analogy. Since there is no cure for HIV, that analogy means there is no chance at getting a job as good as you had before the crisis. It means good health (or a good job) is not even possible. Dumb. Agreed.
Look, this will be my last stab before I give up on this topic.
Let’s pretend you are all correct and it’s true, I am posting with an agenda to make Obama look bad. Let’s pretend I’m some GOP operative. There once was a time when political opponents would challenge claims and demand evidence. And those claiming one thing would accept the challenge and provide the evidence. That’s how political discourse worked. A reasonable request was a reasonable request regardless of agenda. One could have an agenda to sink Obama and still ask a reasonable question and vice versa. If the question was reasonable, the question deserved an answer.
Now, taking that into consideration, what’s wrong with asking for more information, more details, specifics, analysis, in order to prove one way or another whether the claim at the top of this thread, that this is “good news” for the economy, is in fact true? If it IS true, then your should have no problems proving it with the requested information. If it is not true, and further analysis reveals what appears to be good news is in fact mediocre or bad news, the data would show that as well. Anyone?
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@Marc:
lol, I was posting a thought experiment (stated that many times) as to how giving the GOP complete control would ultimately lead to their own destruction and you cherry-pick it to make it look like I approve of the GOP agenda. Now that’s classic propaganda.
Wee Bey
@Can’t Be Bothered:
Trust me. I’m worried.
Wee Bey
@Marc:
Hey. He’s just asking questions. No agenda, here.
Wee Bey
@slag:
Emmy Rossum
Can't Be Bothered
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Yeah. How dare you quote his comment completely and accurately? Fucking propagandists.
Wee Bey
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Find it yourself. Then fuck off.
fasteddie9318
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
This is insane. Absent any counter evidence, which is what YOU should be providing if this is the argument you want to have, a net gain of 200,000 jobs is good news for the economy. Full stop. Is it miraculously wonderful history-changing paradigm-shifting joyous amazing news? No. It’s good news. More would have been better, less would have been worse. If you want to make the argument that a net gain of 200,000 jobs is not good news for the economy, then fucking make it. Go get the goddamn evidence and make it. The bullshit you’re doing is just a waste of everyone’s time.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@Can’t Be Bothered:
Yes, you took a quote OUT OF CONTEXT. Much like Mitt Romney did with his ad using part of Obama’s quote….. by your logic, Romney was not engaging in misleading propaganda. Classic.
fasteddie9318
@Wee Bey: For you, sure. For her, maybe. But for the rest of us?
Wee Bey
@fasteddie9318:
It’s too soon to say. I understand.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@fasteddie9318:
For the last time, I was NEVER MAKING THE ARGUMENT THAT THIS WAS BAD NEWS. I was merely asking for evidence to back the claim that it is good news. That’s the claim at the top of the thread. Your response? It just is. Obviously. Well, it’s not obvious to Dean Baker… and it’s not obvious to me. I need more information. And clearly I won’t get it here, so yes, I’ll find it for myself. You can just sit back and enjoy living under superficial assumptions. I’ll actually do the research.
Wee Bey
Oh, you miserable fuck.
Here. Here’s the link.
Labor Report.
That took me 45 seconds and google to find.
fasteddie9318
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: THANK FSM YOU’RE THERE TO DO THE RESEARCH!
For the record, though, Dean Baker is saying it’s not great news. And plopping down here and demanding that the rest of us go research your own question was, well, lots of descriptors come to mind but none of them positive.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@fasteddie9318:
For example, what if you dug deeper and found out that 100k of those jobs were temporary seasonal jobs, soon to expire? Good news? No. So you DON’T know for sure if that number indicates good news absent more information. You can assume, but you don’t know.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@fasteddie9318:
I guess Baker’s got an anti-Obama agenda too….
Danny
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
I hope you’re enjoying your little exercise in mud-wrestling with the suckers. But you don’t really think you’re being an effective concern troll today, do you? You do realize that any person who were ever earnestly into progressivism, and maybe at some point would hear you out about your concerns about the President’s record – they’re just gonna see right through your schtick when you unwisely fail to keep your head down and stay quiet on good days? Just some friendly advise, buddy :)
colby
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
“There once was a time when political opponents would challenge claims and demand evidence.”
Yeah, that’s not what you did. You MADE UP a claim, a claim that doesn’t even make sense, then said we should look for evidence to disprove it.
Wee Bey
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
You HAVE to be a ratfucking troll. No one is this stupid.
colby
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Of course it is. Is it as good as other news? No. But it’s still good news that someone found a way to make some money, if only for a month or two.
fasteddie9318
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: THE FUCKING NUMBERS ARE SEASONALLY ADJUSTED, FOR FUCK’S SAKE!
The Moar You Know
“Fed Up In Brooklyn” site:balloon-juice.com
Paste it into Google and go. He’s a fucking goldmine.
liberal
@OzoneR:
The funniest thing on this thread is OzoneR, aka Nick “Japan suffered mightily from inflation” trying to talk back to Dean Baker on questions of economic statistics.
Can't Be Bothered
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
*John Cleese voice* Because it is self-bleeding-evident! If you you think that it might not be, then go find some fucking evidence. Or continue shitting in the punch bowl and sticking your dick in the mashed potatoes. Whichever.
liberal
@The Moar You Know:
Yeah, well, we all can play that game, right? (This is apropos OzoneR/Nick and economics.)
dead existentialist
Jesus fuck, people! Another F’ed Up in Brooklyn thread. Why do you respond to the asshole?
Davis X. Machina
@IM: Not if it’s the direct object — which we would most assuredly be.
WaterGirl
@PurpleGirl: Thanks for the heads up. I will look for another reply in this thread later.
Larv
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
My god are you obtuse. There was nothing wrong with the analogy, at least not before you tortured it beyond recognition. I used HIV/AIDS because it’s a disease I’m familiar with, but you can substitute a disease which is ultimately curable if it makes you feel better. But the analogy was only meant to illustrate the absurdity of your claim that “better” was somehow qualitatively different from “good”, not to be a perfect analogy for the environment.
It has been answered, repeatedly. You just haven’t deigned to respond to those, choosing instead to play the martyr.
I’m not your monkey. If you want to make the extremely counterintuitive argument that this in fact bad news, it’s up to you to support that with data and/or valid arguments. You don’t get to just throw up loony hypotheticals and demand that we shoot them down.
sparky
politically it is great news for the Administration.
as employment news it seems that it’s good but not great news: numbers not adjusted, out of workforce continues to be an issue but it was a better Xmas hiring season that people thought it would be.
t jasper parnell
Here are the BoL reports. If Fed wanted to look into them it took me 20 seconds to find them. But then, I actually wanted to know if it was good news or not.
OzoneR
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Oh for the love of God. That would be NOT SEASONALLY ADJUSTED
OzoneR
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
You’re the one who changed it.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Speaking of the Bureau of Labor, this is interesting:
http://tinyurl.com/6st9swk
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@OzoneR:
I was required to AGREE with someone else’s analogy? Wow, the rules get tougher in here every minute. Let me write this one down:
Rule: If someone proposes an analogy you disagree with, you must agree anyway and dare not propose an alternate analogy. Phew. Weird, but okay…
Meanwhile…
“I used HIV/AIDS because it’s a disease I’m familiar with, but you can substitute a disease which is ultimately curable if it makes you feel better. ”
Well yes, that would be required in order for your analogy to make sense.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Now, if we want to tackle a slightly different disease-related analogy, I’d propose this:
Someone completely healthy one day. (GOOD JOB)
Diagnosed with curable cancer the next. (UNEMPLOYED)
Current treatment not causing remission, and patient is in much pain. (UI BENEFITS)
New treatment not causing remission either, but relives patients pain somewhat. (CRAPPY PART-TIME JOB)
Now, one could say, it’s good news that the pain has decreased, but ultimately the goal is to cure the disease and on that front, it’s NOT GOOD NEWS.
WeeBey
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Have you dug into those reports and found the answers to your questions, yet?
The rest of us are awaiting your report.
wrb
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
You think funny.
Improvement=good news.
Period
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Yeah, it’s not nearly as good as the superficial top number would indicate. And I posted a very interesting analysis from Zero Hedge a few posts back.
liberal
Obviously Krugman hasn’t gotten the Party’s memo about the labor report.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@wrb:
How nuanced of you….
WeeBey
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
No, no.
We want to see YOUR analysis.
We’d also like an answer to this question: Is the economy gaining 200,000 jobs last month good news, or not?
Why, or why not.
Show your work.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Zero Hedge, Krugman, Dean Baker…
t jasper parnell
The Krugman is right when he argues that
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Krugman… “it says something about how beaten down we are that this is considered good news.”
Ouch
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@t jasper parnell:
F
F
F
F
F
D- Yay! Good news!
Mike Lamb
@Wee Bey: Does she have a cold sore? We really need to dig deeper on this….
t jasper parnell
FUIB. Yes exactly. The news she is good; the situation she stinks. So? Should we all when we get good news insist that its not perfect news? Obviously, more intensive state investments in job creation and, while we’re at it, the nationalization of the CT model that Kay mentioned would be even yet more better news. Plus more ponies.
So?
WeeBey
@Mike Lamb:
I’ve gone as deep as I can. It’s my failing as a man.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@t jasper parnell: But it’s not good news. It’s better news, not good. There’s a difference. That’s my opinion. Shared by Paul Krugman. Dean Baker is even more down on the news and Zero Hedge basically calls it crap.
Again, if you fail five tests in a row, then get a D-, do you call that good news? I guess it’s up to you, but I would never call a D- a good grade.
WeeBey
“But it’s not good news. It’s better news, not good. There’s a difference.”
You’re a moron.
t jasper parnell
FUIB Good news doesn’t equal good grades, you’re either shifting modes of discourse or letting your analogy get away from you. Better grade than the grade you got last time, especially if it’s the result of an increased understanding of the material, is good news. Being better than the worse is good news. Not great news but good news. Gospel.
So, when I read in the paper this morning about more GM plant openings going forward in MI, I said to myself: That’s good news. Not every or even most of the unemployed, of which I am one, are going to get jobs but some will. Yes good news, not great news for me, although great news for those directly affected.
Still, I thought, more needs to be done. So overall the news could be better; but still good was the news.
Try a little nuance, won’t cha?
t jasper parnell
I would also classify this as good news. Not because I favor limited socio-economic mobility but because the problem is getting more discussion. Good news, better news would be a reverse in the trend but still good news.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@WeeBey:
So is Paul Krugman, apparently, since he said the exact same thing.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Guys, Paul Krugman, a man who knows a thing or two about unemployment numbers said this was not “good” news. Now, you can disagree with him, but I happen to have the same opinion. We can all agree to disagree on what we consider good.
t jasper parnell
@WeeBey: That’s not fair to morons; FUIB is just stubbornly insisting that all news less than perfect news isn’t good news. So when Mark Thoma insists that
He shows that while he recognizes that multiple problems remain and that policy makers need to more, Thoma understands that good news is good news even when hedged in and around by not good news. Sort of like surviving the Somme is good news for those who survived even if the Somme remains a shameful episode of humanity gone mad.
WeeBey
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
No. He didn’t. He said it was good news and sad we’re in a situation where this is what’s considered good news.
@t jasper parnell:
And you’re right. If he was just stupid, he’d stop. He’s a ratfucker.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Ah yes, it’s been a few hours since I was accused of wanting “perfection…”
lol
Meanwhile, over at Zero Hedge:
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@WeeBey:
Oh my God, that is the best spin ever! Holy shit! lmfao!
WeeBey
It’s not spin. It’s what the man said. Only someone determined to ratfuck objectively good news would miss that.
t jasper parnell
FUIB, accused of wanting perfection? I want a perfect world, don’t you? Indeed, in your 296 you argued that anything less than a cure for cancer as joblessness wasn’t good news. Surely then in your analogy it’s the perfect toward which we all ought work and absent its being attained the news she is not good.
Plus I’ll go your linkless quote one better and claim that if you add in the under and unhappily, like your “friend,” employed the number is closer to 25%. The world sucks, the news is still good.
wrb
One thing for sure, one who spends time fucking rats has a teeny-tiny thingy.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Zero Hedge analysis ignored, I see…
Objectively good news? Krugman’s conclusion:
Vastly inadequate is good? Interesting.
El Cid
It’s difficult to determine whether or not a particular development is “good news” unless you have a definition of “good” in mind.
For many people it may not have in many situations a very specific definition — i.e., conditions A, B, and C must be in effect to be “good” — but simply be something which happened which seems more positive than negative.
Outside empirical debates about the statistics themselves (fine too), it’s just an announcement that during a specific time periods 200,000 more net full-time employment positions appeared than were lost or destroyed.
There’s nothing wrong with having a notion of what a “good” economy would be like, and then noting that the current economy is not like that.
Nor is there anything wrong with saying that any apparent or claimed improvement in net employment positions is “good”.
It’s also okay to move back and forth to different levels or terms of analysis and different meanings of “good”, as long as you know that’s what you’re doing and that each time “good” is your own reference point.
t jasper parnell
Good news is news that is better than bad news while double plus ungood news is news that is not good. One month not that long ago zero jobs were reported, bad news. Last month the BoL reported 200k jobs plus a decline in ue claims this news is good news. It’s not the best news and clearly the neoliberal economic system continues to fail to create anything like the number of jobs necessary for anything approaching full employment and that is bad news.
ETA: What el cid said.
Fed Up In Brooklyn
@El Cid:
Yes, this is all true.
t jasper parnell
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: It may be true, but is it good?
Fed Up In Brooklyn
Don’t know if it’s good, but truth IS beauty.
t jasper parnell
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Well then that would be all I need to know trapped as I am among other woes.
chopper
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
lol, zero hedge. yeah, those guys don’t have an axe to grind against liberals, democrats and obama, who they absolutely hate.
might as well quote freerepublic.
AxelFoley
Shorter Fed Up: trollolololololololol
OzoneR
@Fed Up In Brooklyn: Obviously you’ve never struggled in school.
Larv
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Not if one is familiar with the concept of an analogy, which you apparently aren’t. Look, all analogies fail at some point. Situations which are perfectly analogous are not analogous at all but identical. In my analogy, the long-term prospects are irrelevant, as all we were discussing was whether an improvement in the short-term (reduction in viral load) constituted good news, which in unequivocally does. Likewise a short-term improvement in the economy is good news, as is a short-term improvement in employment. You’re trying to get around this by equating good with perfect, which is nonsensical.
Now it’s certainly possible that at some point in the future these short-term gains will prove illusory, but that’s only possible to see with the benefit of hindsight. All we have at the moment is the short-term info, so all we can do is say whether that is good or bad. And better short-term info is a good thing, whether that’s inconvenient to your preconceptions or not.
Larv
@Fed Up In Brooklyn:
Juxtaposed for effect.
This is exactly what I was talking about with my initial analogy and what you seem totally obtuse to. You have defined the only “good” result as the ideal result, i.e. completely curing the disease. No clinician in the world would agree with you. There are lots and lots of good results which fall short of that – reduction in tumor size, reduction of patient suffering, etc… Similarly, it’s quite possible to acknowledge that the economy sucks and still think that short term improvement is a good thing. Getting back to where we were is going to take a long time, and it’s absurd to claim that there’s no possibility of good news until we’re there.
To address your grade analogy, if the student’s grades go FFFFD-DDDDD+CC-CCCC+B-BB, I think you’ll agree that would be an improvement. But by the standards you’re insisting upon, each of those incremental gains is too small to qualify as good news. Is a D good in an absolute sense? Of course not. But if another F is going to get you expelled, then it’s very good news. Note that I’m not saying it’s a good grade, but that it’s good news relative to earlier performance. Your friend’s new job may suck, but if that paycheck is the difference between paying the rent and getting evicted, that’s good news. Similarly, any improvement from a very shitty economy to a somewhat better economy is good news.