My Thoughts on Occupy Wall Street and Permanent Camps

Where do we go from here?

Yesterday, the judge in the “Can We Or Can’t We Camp” case reversed the temporary restraining order it had issued in the morning preventing the Zucotti occupiers from being “evicted,” and ruled that the protestors are not permitted to camp overnight. (Here’s a link to the court order.) I can’t say that I’m surprised. Let’s hope Occupy Wall Street can pick itself up, dust itself off, and figure out what’s next in terms of ameliorating income inequality and eliminating corporate malfeasance.

I put together a chirpstory about my thoughts on the constitutional ramifications. True to form, however, BJ WordPress won’t show the chirpstory (FYWP), so you’re going to have click my blog in order to read it. (And lest anyone accuse me of “shilling” for my blog, Cole asked me to post this.) Also, I notice people are talking about legal issues in the thread below about DHS coordination, so I thought people might want some facts and law and terminology they can use to do their own research. Basically, the First Amendment is not absolute, the government can place reasonable restrictions on speech, and everybody should wish Thurgood Marshall were alive right now.

And, just to add to my post about federal coordination of the raid, the “Obama DOJ DHS coordinated the raid” narrative has taken off. Here’s Wonkette with a post about DHS and coordination. (And here’s Juan Cole citing Wonkette.) Wonkette acknowledges the Examiner as a disreputable source, but then points to an AP report which Wonkette claims verifies everything “except the specific mention of DHS coordination.”

::blink blink::

The “DHS coordination” aspect is the aspect that is supported solely by the Examiner! Get it? The Wonkette headline reads “Surprise, Homeland Security Coordinates #OWS Crackdowns” but the only citation for Homeland Security involvement comes from the fucking Examiner. The AP report is a generic article about coordination by police chiefs in the various cities (which doesn’t strike me as all that out of the ordinary, by the way.) The AP report says absolutely nothing about FBI or Homeland Security involvement. NOTHING.

Again, the Examiner claimed the following:

“According to this official, in several recent conference calls and briefings, local police agencies were advised to seek a legal reason to evict residents of tent cities, focusing on zoning laws and existing curfew rules. Agencies were also advised to demonstrate a massive show of police force, including large numbers in riot gear. In particular, the FBI reportedly advised on press relations, with one presentation suggesting that any moves to evict protesters be coordinated for a time when the press was the least likely to be present.

Local cops were advised by the feds to demonstrate force! To wear riot gear! To disappear occupiers under cover of night!

This is insanity. I have not found a source confirming DHS or FBI involvement. THus, a citation is needed to support the notion that those agencies were actually involved, and Quan reporting to the BBC that “she was on a conference call just before the recent wave of crackdowns began” does not support Wonkette, Michael Moore, and whomever else’s claim that Homeland Security ran point on this op. Thus far, it is fantasy.

Then again, I’m just an Obamabot, so what the hell do I know.

I do know this: given that the November 6 “issue” of the Examiner contains this doozy —

Two former participants in the CIA’s Mars visitation program of the early 1980’s have confirmed that U.S. President Barack H. Obama was enrolled in their Mars training class in 1980 and was among the young Americans from the program who they later encountered on the Martian surface after reaching Mars via “jump room.”

Andrew D. Basiago, 50, a lawyer in Washington State who served in DARPA’s time travel program Project Pegasus in the 1970’s, and fellow chrononaut William B. Stillings, 44, who was tapped by the Mars program for his technical genius, have publicly confirmed that Obama was enrolled in their Mars training class in 1980 and that each later encountered Obama during visits to rudimentary U.S. facilities on Mars that took place from 1981 to 1983.

— I’d say my skepticism is more than justified.

This is milk from the Fox News media teat, and people are lapping it up.

I thought we were better than this. We’re being gamed.

(edited to fix Examiner link)

RELATED POST: About that DHS Coordinated Crackdown on Zuccotti Park…

[cross-posted at ABLC here and here]

220 replies
  1. 1
    Ben Cisco says:

    This is milk from the Fox News media teat, and people are lapping it up.

    That ain’t milk.

  2. 2
    Narcissus says:

    That just makes me like Obama more.

  3. 3
    LittlePig says:

    Wow. And I thought the Hollow Earth people were nuts.

    The Shaver Mystery lives!

  4. 4
    Yevgraf says:

    Speaking as an Obamabot, I’m not going to be happy until DHS tazes Moore while he’s speaking to a large crowd and Greenwald is whisked away to Gitmo to be waterboarded.

    Those are the mental images that make me tumescent.

  5. 5

    In other words, examiner.com is the Weekly World News of the internet? That sounds about right to me. But they really are a poor substitute because no one will ever top the Bat Boy story.

  6. 6
    Egg Berry says:

    wait, you folks weren’t in the Mars Time Travel Program?

    oops. I’ve said too much.

  7. 7
    clone12 says:

    The whole DARPA mars time travel article is coo coo bananas, but that link I found via my sad-sack google-fu is from examiner.com, whereas the Examiner’s website is washingtonexaminer.com

    Was the crazy DARPA Mars time travel story ever on washingtonexaminer.com?

  8. 8
    The Moar You Know says:

    So, Obama isn’t a Kenyan, but rather a MARTIAN? No wonder people are so bent out of shape about that guy.

    I’m laughing because if I think too hard about the fact that the MSM is now getting their information from a rag that talks about a “DARPA time travel portal” and “Operation Pegasus”, I’ll probably go home, sell my house, and move to a country that has a more stable social and political environment. Which would be “anywhere else”.

  9. 9
    John M. Burt says:

    @Ben Cisco: Uh-oh. And I’ll bet it isn’t really raining, either….

  10. 10
    jeff says:

    Thanks for being a calm voice of reason and legal sense. Not really living up to the “Angry” title today.

  11. 11
    Zandar says:

    Who benefits from “Did Obama authorize drone strikes greenlight Occupy raids?” and has a book to sell about their plan for the progressive movement?

  12. 12
    flukebucket says:

    Your time traveler link is broken.

  13. 13
    Cain says:

    Since we’re bringing this up.. please listen to this podcast with Mayor Sam Adams of Portland versus #OccupyPDX.

    Mayor Adams cleared the parks out on Sunday, and he faces off with the Occupy folks. It was a good discussion, but you’ll see that the guys representing OccupyPDX seem to fall into some stereotypes.

    Mayor Adam complains that the Occupy movement doesn’t have focus and wants them to have a short list instead of a large list of grievances. Short achievable goals. He also thinks they need to move to political movement. Whereas I think the #occupypdx just want to occupy pdx indefinitely until their concerns are heard.

    Great call ins from fellow dirty hippies from the 60s who say that change needs to be political and not just drum circles.

    I found it fascinating.. check it out

  14. 14
    Gex says:

    @flukebucket: That’s okay. We can just jump back a few minutes and prevent that error.

  15. 15
    Marc says:

    Screw this birth certificate stuff. I want to see his time travel space camp certificate.

    Long-form, please.

  16. 16

    Regardless of the reliability of sources, the accusation that the feds coordinated an attack on the Occupy movement should be investigated and shown to be true or untrue.

    I am also an Obot but really think that such a serious accusation should be addressed. By somebody.

  17. 17
    Anya says:

    The public is turning against OWS because their message was co-opted by publicity seekers like Michael Moore. It lost its original leaderless focus on the 1%, which IMHO, was its most attractive feature. Michael Moore should learn that he does not need to sit in front of every camera — sometimes you are more effective behind the scene.

  18. 18
    William Hurley says:

    Mighty defensive.

    Reminds me of “W” supporters who insta-denied that White House’s coordinate effort to “cleanse” the DoJ of USA’s unwilling to do ideological dirty work.

    On a different note, I do admire the preponderance of mind-readers here, able to divine the President’s deepest motivations with nary a word or clue. Given this talent, can you enlighten us as to the motivations to lie about the use of drones in service of the extra-legal murder of innocent civilians in nations the US is not at war with?

    Or maybe you could inform us as to why the President is pushing for the widely rejected, exculpatory settlement with banksters.

  19. 19
    cleek says:

    i give up: why does it matter if the evictions were “coordinated” ?

  20. 20
    bourbaki says:

    I like how you are linking (its broken btw) to some random dude (totally unrelated to the actual guy who posted the story) on what amounts to a microblogging platform as an attempt to claim something about…well something. Will your next post consist of you obliterating some idiots diary on myFDL or DKos?

  21. 21
    joeyess says:

    Nixon and Reagan had a profound impact on our nation’s political id. Any group that challenges power and that power’s perceived natural order are simply referred to as “bums” that smell like “cheetah”……. OWS support has waned and it’s a direct result of the Nixon/Reagan playbook. Hippie punching will never go out of style. If they don’t agree with a particular group’s ideology, call them hippies, smelly, a fornicating mob, set the police upon them and call it a day. Game over. We’re ruled by idiots, opined to by sociopaths, enslaved by plutocrats, and beaten with truncheons if we object to any of the above. I’ve talked about this at length in the past, but it bears repeating: The forces that OWS were taking on are very powerful. This challenge was not going to go unanswered. It’s all a reality teevee show, folks, and we’re all merely underpaid subjects of the production.

  22. 22
    The Moar You Know says:

    Michael Moore should learn that he does not need to sit in front of every camera — sometimes you are more effective behind the scene.

    @Anya: You are making an interesting assumption that Michael Moore wanted to be “effective”.

    I think that, as always, he simply wanted the publicity and damn the consequences.

  23. 23
    Tim I says:

    Examiner.com is owned by Phillip Anschutz, a Christian conservative, who happens to be the 12th richest bastard in the US.

    The guy who “reported” the story is a blogger, who gets paid based on the number of page views he gets. Thanks to the professional left, he is getting a lot of page views, but since Anschutz pays as little as a penny per page view, he probably isn’t getting rich.

    Most DOJ officials look for unknown right wing bloggers when they want to leak something big. It is pathetic that so many progressive media types buy into this bullshit. Whatever happened to checking one’s sources.

  24. 24
    different-church-lady says:

    @cleek: So you can accuse Obama of deliberate sabotage, silly.

  25. 25
    cleek says:

    @Tim I:

    Whatever happened to checking one’s sources.

    some stories are too good to check.

  26. 26
    Tim I says:

    @William Hurley:

    The ODS runs deep in this one.

  27. 27
    different-church-lady says:

    @Tim I:

    Whatever happened to checking one’s sources.

    Sometimes we forget that the rules of journalism don’t apply to the internet.

  28. 28
  29. 29
    DaBomb says:

    Two former participants in the CIA’s Mars visitation program of the early 1980’s have confirmed that U.S. President Barack H. Obama was enrolled in their Mars training class in 1980 and was among the young Americans from the program who they later encountered on the Martian surface after reaching Mars via “jump room.”

    I am repeating what a wise sage Dave Chappelle said once on his show about the first black President, it is so prescient now…

    “To Mars bitchez!!!”

    Who knew Dave already predicted that the first black President had already been there? Who knew?

  30. 30
    The Moar You Know says:

    If they don’t agree with a particular group’s ideology, call them hippies, smelly, a fornicating mob, set the police upon them and call it a day. Game over.

    @joeyess: It has worked every damn time, and it’s been working since the 1960s. The first time I can recall it being used was against the freedom marches in the South.

    Interestingly enough, those accusations against civil rights protesters is the only time I can recall that smear tactic not working.

  31. 31
    Yevgraf says:

    @cleek:

    i give up: why does it matter if the evictions were “coordinated” ?

    Because, like, uh, man, that’s just like wrong or something. Free Speech. Stick it to the man! Obama=Bush.

  32. 32
    Egg Berry says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Sometimes we forget that the rules of journalism don’t apply to the internet

    Hell, they apparently don’t apply to the op-ed pages, why should they apply to the tnternet?

  33. 33
    cleek says:

    @different-church-lady:
    oh, right.

    i sometimes forget to look at things with my crazy-colored lenses on.

  34. 34
    jafg says:

    Normally I would blame the GOPers and their corporate overlords for stories like this but it’s quite the clear the Blame Obama for everything left has taken the handoff from the Right and ran with it.

    Apparently quotes from Micheal Moore are being used as proof now. Even though he read it from the same blog from some guy on some website that allows bloggers to earn money per click. Nope…no motivation there to use catch headlines to attract clicks. Nope just good solid journalism……..sigh.

    And BJ’s own Anne Laurie is more than happy to perpetuate the bullshit.

    Hey, I read on BJ in the comments section that John Cole supposedly (according to anonymous sources who personally know John as quoted by the commenter) that he likes to put on makeup and jewelery, pose naked in front of a mirror, tuck in his balls and say “I’d fuk me sooo hard”. Like in the movie Silence of the Lambs.

    There is no proof that it is not true so there must be something to it.

  35. 35
    Allan says:

    Is the Professional Left coordinating their assault on the Obama administration? I demand that Michael Moore, Greg Mitchell, Digby, Gregg Levine, Mike Elk and Juan Cole release all their emails to prove that they aren’t working in concert.

  36. 36
    different-church-lady says:

    It’s amazing to me that it took OWS two months to gain traction in the public mind, but the moment it has a mid-level setback the narratives about its failure are instantaneous. “It failed because Michael Moore showed up!” “It failed because they don’t know what they’re doing!” “It failed because the 1% pulled Obama’s strings!”

    Fuckin’ sports radio callers.

  37. 37

    @The Moar You Know:

    Interesting observation. Perhaps we should think about why such slander against the Civil Rights Movement didn’t work.

  38. 38
    Yevgraf says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    Interestingly enough, those accusations against civil rights protesters is the only time I can recall that smear tactic not working.

    The civil rights protesters were the older group who lived soberly, sanely, and were taken seriously. They spoke clearly, without generational affectations. They were clearly part of the society as a whole, and their dissent was something which could ultimately be accepted.

    The later group of assholes came off as disconnected. Whoever came up with the counterculture theme in dress, behavior, attitude and speech as part of “the movement” really needed to get capped.

  39. 39
    JGabriel says:

    @The Ancient Randonneur:

    In other words, examiner.com is the Weekly World News of the internet?

    Not quite. Weekly World News is/was an intentional satire. The satirical intentions of Examiner.com’s contributors are unknown and probably vary from author to author.

    .

  40. 40
    Ruckus says:

    I don’t doubt there was SOME type of coordination. The police are now a paramilitary organizations, linked with DHS, FBI and who knows what others. They consider OWS a scourge on their cities. Not our cities, their cities. With the war on drugs and terror there are many coordinated activities among law enforcement. Remember they consider many things threats that a lot of us here would not. And their job is to contain and end threats.
    Oh and that “catch the law breaker” thing.
    I just don’t think it has to go very far up the food chain at whatever agency(s) if any are involved to coordinate this type of thing. I think that is much more normal than we might like to believe.

  41. 41
    Raenelle says:

    @Yevgraf: “the” images that make you tumescent. Sounds like a unique reference, when I’d bet a bit that there are all sorts of violent images that make you tumescent.

  42. 42
    Satanicpanic says:

    No one outside of the left blogosphere gives a crap about what Michael Moore has to say on his blog about whether or not the DHS was coordinating these crackdowns. When he makes a movie about it, then I’ll be ready to cast him out of the movement.

  43. 43
    William Hurley says:

    @Tim I:

    How telling. An o-bot recycles a right-wingnut epithet and convinces himself he’s saying more about me than he is about himself.

    This life-long Democrat is concerned about the nation’s prospects regardless of who or which party the President happens to affiliate with. In Barry’s case, his impending loss imperils the this society’s future.

    But please do keep on worrying about the trivialities of trafficking in acceptable snark and the politics of idolatry while the grown-ups try to protect the present and the future for you and your ilk.

  44. 44
    el_gallo says:

    The admission by Mayor Quan that she has been on more than one phone call with other mayors across the nation to discuss what to do with the Occupy camps, and the resignation of her legal advisor and deputy mayor after the most recent police action are what’s driving the Federal involvement idea for me, and for a lot of other people here in Oakland. The Examiner piece may be garbage, but it’s garbage that plays off of less dramatic, but verifiable, facts.

  45. 45
    harokin says:

    Whether Obama specifically ordered DHS to shut OWS down is not as important as the fact such an accusation is not unthinkable. The question as to Obama’s involvement has been raised. If Obama did not order DHS to shut OWS down, it should be easy enough for him to deny that. Why is he avoiding that question? Who is he protecting? When will he address these troubling allegations?

  46. 46
    MikeJ says:

    @Linda Featheringill:

    Interesting observation. Perhaps we should think about why such slander against the Civil Rights Movement didn’t work.

    They wore suits and didn’t wave giant puppets?

  47. 47
    William Hurley says:

    @Yevgraf:

    The later group of assholes came off as disconnected. Whoever came up with the counterculture theme in dress, behavior, attitude and speech as part of “the movement” really needed to get capped.

    hmmm, how unsurprising to find wishful thinking about violence and a self-impeaching use of in-group language that fails the author’s own standard for seriousness.

    Can I help you out by creating a starter-hole in that paper-bag your struggling to intellectually escape?

  48. 48
    harlana says:

    does it really matter? in the long run, i don’t think so.

  49. 49
    Chris says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    Interestingly enough, those accusations against civil rights protesters is the only time I can recall that smear tactic not working.

    Not everything works the first time. The civil rights movement was the first such movement they had to confront: they’ve had a lot of time to perfect their tactics since.

  50. 50
    Ruckus says:

    @cleek:
    I see you got the correct answer but the serious one is that it doesn’t. Other than showing skeptics about OWS that is a weak organization and the government is strong. Strong is better, it’s the same as bigger is better, richer is better, weak is wrong, lack of soundbite is wrong, DFH’s are wrong, 3 piece suits are right… Do I need to go on?

  51. 51
    MikeJ says:

    @harokin:

    The question as to Obama’s involvement has been raised.

    The question of Obama traveling to MArs has also been raised. Why should we take one more seriously than the other?

  52. 52
    Egg Berry says:

    Interestingly enough, those accusations against civil rights protesters is the only time I can recall that smear tactic not working.

    The civil rights protesters were pre-hippie.

  53. 53
    Satanicpanic says:

    I don’t see why it matters whether they are coordinated or not, this is just what we can expect in this country after eroding our freedoms for decades. Freedom haters are gonna hate.

  54. 54
    Poopyman says:

    @Linda Featheringill: Because people watching TV saw middle aged and elderly folks dressed in their Sunday best being firehosed and having dogs set on them. Visual images trump name calling every time.

    Bloomberg was right to clamp down on the press at Zuccotti Park. Expect to see more suppression of stories as we go along.

  55. 55
    different-church-lady says:

    @MikeJ:

    They wore suits and didn’t wave giant puppets?

    Yeah, but that was back in the days before suits became a symbol of evil.

  56. 56
    Yevgraf says:

    @Linda Featheringill:

    Perhaps we should think about why such slander against the Civil Rights Movement didn’t work.

    Like I said above – civil rights marchers were clearly a part of the culture. If you look at the photos, they’re conventionally dressed and coiffed, their signage is neatly lettered in conventional fonts (or blockprinted), the folks run the gamut of age. They are, in short, everyman, somebody who looks just like other people you know and respect.

    Clock protest images forward by 5 years, and the scene is different – its a younger movement, but appearances changed dramatically, so the imagery changes. Combine ugly counterculture fashion, sloppy hairstyles, affected speech patterns, encouraged drug abuse and weird mannerisms, and you’ve got a perfect case of “the other” that needs to be ignored at best, crushed at worst.

  57. 57
    Egg Berry says:

    @Yevgraf:

    They are, in short, everyman, somebody who looks just like other people you know and respect.

    Except they were, you know, black.

    Also, Malcolm X wore a suit and tie. didn’t change his message.

  58. 58
    DS says:

    If people really want to do good and enact change, they need to start by marching to the houses of the heads of the ECB and Bundesbank and then beating those bastards with bars of soap. I realize banking and monetary policy is scary, boring and confusing but unless those two fucks change course dramatically the global economic situation is going to get very ugly in the next little while.

  59. 59
    Mnemosyne says:

    @William Hurley:

    Reminds me of “W” supporters who insta-denied that White House’s coordinate effort to “cleanse” the DoJ of USA’s unwilling to do ideological dirty work.

    Of course, the people alleging that the Bush White House was cleansing the DoJ had, like, actual proof in the form of actual USA’s coming forward to say it had happened to them. You know, witnesses and junk.

    Right now, your “proof” consists of a paraphrase from an anonymous State Department employee that the original reporter is now backpedaling on. So, yes, clearly the two situations are the exact same thing.

  60. 60
    different-church-lady says:

    @harokin:

    Whether Obama specifically ordered DHS to shut OWS down is not as important as the fact such an accusation is not unthinkable.

    Interesting. Let’s apply this theory to a black person who grew up urban poor, who’s now accused of burglary or murder, and see where that goes.

  61. 61
    Yevgraf says:

    @William Hurley:

    In Barry’s case, his impending loss imperils the this society’s future.

    You just unzipped your fly, dipshit. Put your cock away and haul your ass back on over to RedState.

  62. 62
    Poopyman says:

    @Poopyman: To be clear, I refudiate Bloomberg in the stongest terms. By “right” I meant that it was the best way he could control the message.

  63. 63
    MikeJ says:

    @Ruckus:

    DFH’s are wrong, 3 piece suits are right

    If that’s the case, what do you think is a better method to get change: drum circles or respectful marches in suits?

    Protests aren’t supposed to exists to make anyone feel good, or to allow people to express themselves. They exist for change. They exists to ask people to do something. It seems silly to whine that the people you are asking for action don’t like hippies and then fit the stereotype. You have to appeal to the people that you want to take action.

  64. 64
    harlana says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Yeah, but that was back in the days before suits became a symbol of evil.

    but, you know, evil can come in khakis and golf shirts these days – it’s a nice trick, actually

  65. 65
    Nied says:

    ABL messed up the link to the Sekrit Martian story.

    Here’s the correct one.

  66. 66
    Yevgraf says:

    @Egg Berry:

    Except they were, you know, black.

    Black AND white. But even if they’d only been black, the conventional, normal dress fit them in with society at large, that monstrous cohort that had nothing personally invested in continuing segregation.

  67. 67
    Egg Berry says:

    who wears a 3-piece suit these days?

  68. 68
    different-church-lady says:

    @Yevgraf: You’re completely missing it: civil rights protesters were “normal” in the sense that they gave the appearance that they were there because they had to be there, not because they wanted to be there. There’s a lot of people in OWS that give off the opposite impression.

    I get the feeling that we do not get a true sense of the dedication and seriousness of the core of OSW, neither from the media, nor from their loudest supporters.

  69. 69
    MikeJ says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Yeah, but that was back in the days before suits became a symbol of evil.

    The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit was released as a novel in 1955 and a movie in 1957.

  70. 70
    Tony J says:

    @Egg Berry:

    wait, you folks weren’t in the Mars Time Travel Program?

    The First Rule of Mars Time Travel Program is..?

    Plus, temporal memory inversion is a bitch. It’s funny, because I explain all of this in some detail later on in your personal timeline. Abe Lincoln (or one of his boys) must have paid you a visit in the meantime because I remember you not remembering a word of this.

  71. 71
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Egg Berry:

    Also, Malcolm X wore a suit and tie. didn’t change his message.

    That’s the point, though — because Malcolm wore the suit and tie, he looked “respectable” enough to be a media figure who could be on teevee for white folks to see and hear. He looked middle-class, which allowed him to have a much stronger message than if he had worn love beads and a Nehru jacket (or, given the time period of when he first became a media figure in the early 1960s, a Beat-style black beret and turtleneck, I guess).

  72. 72
    andrewsomething says:

    @MikeJ:

    Protests aren’t supposed to exists to make anyone feel good, or to allow people to express themselves. They exist for change. They exists to ask people to do something. It seems silly to whine that the people you are asking for action don’t like hippies and then fit the stereotype. You have to appeal to the people that you want to take action.

    I understand the feeling. Despite my involvement and overall support of OWS, I often cringe at certain elements. But I’d honestly like to know how you think this is supposed to happen in this situation. Do we chase off the drummer with baseball bats?

  73. 73
    Egg Berry says:

    @Yevgraf:

    Black AND white. But even if they’d only been black, the conventional, normal dress fit them in with society at large, that monstrous cohort that had nothing personally invested in continuing segregation.

    is society big enough to contain people wearing t-shirts? I think it is. Steve Jobs wore a mock turtleneck.

  74. 74
    Svensker says:

    @harokin:

    If Obama did not order DHS to shut OWS down, it should be easy enough for him to deny that. Why is he avoiding that question? Who is he protecting? When will he address these troubling allegations?

    How long will he avoid the questions about his life on Mars? Huh? Who is he protecting? These allegations are troubling, as well.

  75. 75
    Egg Berry says:

    @Tony J: It must have been sherman. he was a character that way.

  76. 76
    different-church-lady says:

    @harlana:

    but, you know, evil can come in khakis and golf shirts these days – it’s a nice trick, actually

    I was always struck by how Mohamed Atta appeared on the security camera footage — casual shirt, black pants, laptop bag, neat. He’s not dressed any different then 95% of the men you’d see in any high-tech office park. And he’s about to kill thousands of people.

  77. 77
    cleek says:

    @Ruckus:

    Other than showing skeptics about OWS that is a weak organization and the government is strong.

    OWS is weak. it has a weak messaging system. it has a weak internal structure. and its entire existence seems dependent on the not-at-all-guaranteed ability to camp for an indefinite amount of time in public parks. and that’s all intentional.

  78. 78
    harlana says:

    OT, but I guess this is the same guy from a few days ago – at the time, the press reported no threat to the WH, however:

    a bullet round was found in a White House window, though the round had not yet been conclusively linked to the incident. The round was stopped by ballistic glass

  79. 79
    JGabriel says:

    @Egg Berry:

    wait, you folks weren’t in the Mars Time Travel Program?

    I was recruited when I was 14, but they unfortunately shut it down before I could make my return mission, and I got stuck here among you earthlings. It’s been hell trying to … (sighs, gazes despairingly into the distance) … well, it doesn’t matter anymore.

    On Mars, we’re mostly social democrats. It offends us when you say Michele Bachmann is from outer space. Trust the real outer space alien here: Only a people as benighted as you humans could come up with beings as preposterous as Ayn Rand, Michele Bachmann, and Rick Santorum.

    .

  80. 80
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @JGabriel:

    Weekly World News is/was an intentional satire.

    NO!? Please, say it ain’t so!

  81. 81
    different-church-lady says:

    @cleek:

    ts entire existence seems dependent on the ability to indefinitely camp in public parks.

    Using the underpants gnome template, it would appear that “Occupy Parks” was step 1, and the weakness was not filling in the blank at the second step soon enough.

  82. 82
    Ruckus says:

    @MikeJ:
    I’m not sure of your point here but to answer your question, a march in suits would be a much stronger point to the people that control things. It might not mean the same to you or me but we aren’t the people who need to be convinced that change is needed. For me the OWS message is very strong because it is not the suits(people more likely to have a slice than not), it is the 99%.

  83. 83
    atdnext says:

    And in case this wasn’t scandalicious enough…

    http://www.salon.com/2011/11/1.....obile.html

    ZOMG!!! SEIU endorses Obama AND OWS? Yes, believe it or not, many progressives do support the goals of most Occupiers… While also knowing our only chance at survival lies with Obama’s reelection.

    (And btw, I’m a long-time lurker and first time commenter. LOVE this blog!)

  84. 84
    Satanicpanic says:

    @andrewsomething: The idea that we have to chase some moving target of what the media considers respectable protest to me seems like a fool’s errand. BUT, I would love to chase these people of for the simple fact that the drum circles are annoying. I don’t bring a generator and my band to protests and try to impose my crappy taste in music on everyone, they shouldn’t either.

  85. 85
    JustMe says:

    ABL, you’re really hung up on this idea that DHS wasn’t involved in the OWS crackdowns. Look, it’s more credible than not. If you have any evidence that the story is wrong, then show it.

  86. 86
    different-church-lady says:

    @JustMe: And exactly how is it more credible than not?

  87. 87
    Tim I says:

    @William Hurley:

    Someday ODS may be a treatable disorder. For your sake, I hope that day comes real soon.

  88. 88
    harlana says:

    @different-church-lady: don’t laugh, now, but i can remember my epiphany that the white men in ties and suits had actually been lying to me all along as being utterly devastating. i suppose that’s why people reject it now, even in many professional environments, including some high-end law firms (though, quite frankly, i just find nothing at all attractive about a man in a golf shirt, they look much better in ties or just a t-shirt, IMO).

    as for OWS NY, i’m sorry, but the balding white guys with dreads just gotta go!

  89. 89
    shano says:

    Sorry, but there are photos of an actual Homeland Security employee arresting a reporter in Portland.
    http://www.demotix.com/news/90.....otographer

    the evidence is quite clear in Mayor Quans statement: meeting with 18 Mayors in a conference call is not ‘local’ or ‘state’ it is NATIONAL coordination.

    We have built a huge militarized security apparatus, first for the War on Drugs, and now for the War on Terror….why are people surprised when they use it? Middlebury Vermont just got a frekin’ tank. WTF for?

  90. 90
    Yevgraf says:

    @andrewsomething:

    Do we chase off the drummer with baseball bats?

    If we put that on pay per view, we could actually fundraise.

  91. 91
    Chris says:

    @JGabriel:

    On Mars, we’re mostly social democrats.

    That explains why President Clark had you bombed.

  92. 92
    William Hurley says:

    @JustMe:

    Indeed. Her penchant for ad hominem “argument” is starkly fact-free this time around.

    The use of intermediaries, proxies and agencies to execute Executive Office wishes is so common it’s almost an axiomatic truth.

    I find myself reminded of Bush devotees’ instant, angry denials that the White House played no role in either the firing of or applying political pressure on US Attorneys to pursue bogus voter fraud litigation.

  93. 93
    different-church-lady says:

    @harlana:

    as for OWS NY, i’m sorry, but the balding white guys with dreads just gotta go!

    The balding white guys can stay as long as the dreds go.

    (This opinion applies to life outside of OWS.)

  94. 94
    Tim I says:

    @JustMe:

    Are you suggesting it must be true because someone wrote it on a blog? I take it you are also down with the Mars trip story as well.

  95. 95
    The prophet Nostradumbass says:

    @shano:

    Reportedly his arrest was not concerning the Occupy Portland movement.

    So, what were you saying?

  96. 96
    Culture of Truth says:

    No, no, no, he’s not a Martian! He an American who went to Mars. In a wormhole. And got lost. Silly Obama.

  97. 97
    different-church-lady says:

    @William Hurley: OK, you’re just trying to be as transparently ironic as possible now, aren’t you?

  98. 98
    William Hurley says:

    @shano:

    Beware the impending charges of Photoshopping evidence.

    The truth is, for many, too troublesome to bear.

  99. 99
    JustMe says:

    quite frankly, i just find nothing at all attractive about a man in a golf shirt, they look much better in ties or just a t-shirt, IMO

    I have to disagree. While I don’t wear a suit and tie often, I will never, never, never wear a golf shirt. Ever. Especially not with pleated khakis.

  100. 100
    ellie says:

    Wait a minute, what? Mars? I feel like I walked in the room in the middle of a conversation.

  101. 101
    shano says:

    I will say this too: one day driving on the Interstate, I was passed by two giant white busses, with blacked out windows and the official Homeland Security Seal on their doors.

    And these police actions reek of the incompetence of the Feds, Homeland Security is about as well trained as the TSA, and it shows.

    Do you even know what resources HS has now?

  102. 102
    Tim I says:

    @shano:

    That had nothing to do with Occupy Portland. The man was staging his own protest in a Federal Park. That’s why he was arrested by DHS, for refusing to leave after curfew.

  103. 103
    William Hurley says:

    @different-church-lady:

    As I wrote above, the truth is often too troublesome for many to bear. Thanks for volunteering to be evidence of that observation’s factual basis.

  104. 104
    different-church-lady says:

    @The prophet Nostradumbass: Crap, I can feel another zombie lie walking the earth…

  105. 105
    Tim I says:

    @shano:

    Have you seen any black helicopters lately?

  106. 106
    different-church-lady says:

    @William Hurley: And exactly who hired you to be truth’s Au Pair?

  107. 107
    Linnaeus says:

    People may not have noticed, since it’s a smaller group and doesn’t get the headlines, but Occupy Detroit is actually winding down its occupation of Grand Circus Park by mutual agreement with the city:

    On Monday afternoon, protesters were dismantling tents and cleaning up. From the beginning Occupy Detroit had said they didn’t intend to stay through the winter, but they had hoped the city would allow the camp to continue into December. Instead, the campsite will be vacated by this time next week.

    “This doesn’t mean the end of Occupy,” said Otis Jones, a Detroit resident who has been camped out in Grand Circus Park since the protest began last month. “The movement will have different phases, but we will keep demonstrating. We’ve got to keep what we’ve got going.”

    Part of the reason, I’m sure, is that you really can’t camp in Grand Circus Park in January. Occupy Detroit is looking for winter quarters right now. It’ll be interesting to see how it evolves.

  108. 108
    shano says:

    And thank god the Lrad malfunctioned and blasted the police trying to use it instead of the occupados.

    The sound torture cannon, developed to disperse riots, will it become an acceptable way to defeat peaceful protesters in America?

  109. 109

    […] See Angry Black Lady about the rumors that the DHS coordinated the clean-outs of OWS encampments. She traced all the […]

  110. 110
    different-church-lady says:

    @Linnaeus:

    Occupy Detroit is looking for winter quarters right now.

    Valley Forge, anyone?

  111. 111
    harlana says:

    @JustMe: perhaps it’s just the south, but the golf shirt & khaki thing is ubiquitous amongst the business class here – it’s like a “the new uniform” or something, and usually, the golf shirt is light blue

  112. 112
    shano says:

    Tim, so why wasnt he arrested by the Park Ranger?

  113. 113
    shano says:

    I live right next to a National Forest and a Wilderness area and have never seen Homeland Security around here, ever.

  114. 114
    Svensker says:

    @shano:

    I will say this too: one day driving on the Interstate, I was passed by two giant white busses, with blacked out windows and the official Homeland Security Seal on their doors.

    So your argument is: you saw some HS buses once so that proves that HS was involved with the OWS shutdown? Also, too, they are incompetent? Excellent. Clear and compelling proof!

    Perhaps the FBI and/or HS was involved, I don’t know. But so far, no one else seems to know either. Perhaps reports that they were involved should wait until there is actual knowledge rather than what sounds fun and scary.

  115. 115
    Mnemosyne says:

    @William Hurley:

    The use of intermediaries, proxies and agencies to execute Executive Office wishes is so common it’s almost an axiomatic truth.

    Shorter Hurley: Proof is for wimps!

  116. 116
    Ruckus says:

    @cleek:
    So how do you change that? How do you make it stronger? Or what do you replace it with?
    Movements start weakly and gather steam when they either impress enough people to become big or when their message is so strong that the message is the power. With most of the media in the back pocket of the 1%, how does that message get stronger?
    Remember that somewhere around 70% of the workforce had a job during the depression, around 80% has a job (such as it is) now. Those are the people that need to be impressed by OWS, those are the people who are worried that they will lose that job and not find another. I’d bet the majority of them are not the ones who identify with OWS.
    This is a bottom up organization, not top down. We are very used to top down structure. Business, government, even religion is top down. Bottom up orgs don’t have coherent structure, a message, etc. That has to be developed. A top down org develops those first. A bottom up grows or dies, a top down is grown, or dies.

  117. 117
    William Hurley says:

    @Tim I:

    DHS had a presence on SW 3rd, SW 4th and NW 10th as permanent as that of the Occupiers. It was DHS and PDX cops who “dislodged” “Occupiers” from the “pristine” public parks of the Pearl District’s condo towers and appropriately costumed residents.

    The truth is that ABL and the rest of the o-bot swarm expect people to believe that even though Federal, state and local law enforcement worked together every day before and since the coordinated mass invasions/evictions of Occupy camps around the nation that for that one, brief moment of dislodgement action, these intermingled agencies were acting with strict independence and a level of departmental secrecy that did not trespass into long-established cross-functional operations. Mayor Quan’s statement not withstanding, of course.

    Give me a f*^*&*^ing break!

  118. 118
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mnemosyne: Alternate shorter Hurley: Axiomatic truth for me, but no axiomatic truth for thee.

  119. 119
    different-church-lady says:

    @William Hurley:

    The truth is that ABL and the rest of the o-bot swarm expect people to believe that even though Federal, state and local law enforcement worked together every day before and since the coordinated mass invasions/evictions of Occupy camps around the nation…

    Yeah… so how do you explain all the camps that weren’t invaded?

  120. 120
    lou says:

    I picked up the Examiner on my way into the Metro one day when I forgot my Kindle. This lede caught my eye and I started laughing aloud.

    First lady Michelle Obama’s campaign to get people to exercise outdoors might be a factor in an increase in the number of pedestrian deaths during the first half of last year, according to the Governors Highway Safety Association.

    Yeah, the Examiner is a reliable source of information. Snort.

    Here’s the story, if you can stomach it.
    http://washingtonexaminer.com/.....ian-deaths

  121. 121
    Yevgraf says:

    @different-church-lady:

    The balding white guys can stay as long as the dreds go.

    (This opinion applies to life outside of OWS.)

    But how do you feel about the noble skullet?

  122. 122
    William Hurley says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Do you have even the slightest understanding of facts or evidence?

    What part of Mayor Quan’s comments did you fail to understand.

    As I wrote above, truth is …. .

    You know how it goes, you live it.

  123. 123
    Mnemosyne says:

    @shano:

    And the name of the guy is?

    And the reason he was arrested was?

    Do you have any actual, you know, facts, or just a scary picture that purports to show, um … something?

  124. 124
    JGabriel says:

    JustMe:

    ABL, you’re really hung up on this idea that DHS wasn’t involved in the OWS crackdowns. Look, it’s more credible than not.

    How is a single, anonymous, source — in an unreliable, conservative funded, outlet for unedited and unverified essays by anyone with a rant to publish — “credible”?

    Sorry, not buying it. I’m with ABL on this one. The rumor of DHS and FBI involvement in local Occupy crackdowns is worthless conspiracy-mongering, unless and until more and better sourcing for it becomes public.

    .

  125. 125
    Tim I says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Almost all the marchers at Civil Rights protests. Not all of them were in suits, but they always dressed up.

    I was involved in several community organizations founded by Saul Alinsky. We were always told to wear our Sunday best while picketing. We were also told not to talk to the media, but to steer them towards our designated speakers, so that our message didn’t get muddled.

    We won most of those battles because while our tactics were aggressive, we looked like a nice middle-class group which ranged from kids (like me at the time) to silver-haired elderly women. That made it hard for people and the press to vilify us.

    I have learned in my adult organizing days that if you really want to scare a politician or a corporation, all you have to do is promise to have a couple of buses of senior citizens picketing their office. They are terrified of that imagery appearing in the media.

  126. 126
    kc says:

    Two former participants in the CIA’s Mars visitation program of the early 1980’s have confirmed that U.S. President Barack H. Obama was enrolled in their Mars training class in 1980 and was among the young Americans from the program who they later encountered on the Martian surface after reaching Mars via “jump room.”

    That’s ridiculous. Everyone knows Obama was in a Kenyan Muslim communist indoctrination camp in the early ’80’s.

  127. 127
    shano says:

    Svensker: I saw those busses a few years ago (clearing this up) and they gave me chills, it was surreal.

    It only meant to illustrate that Homeland Security has all sorts of toys. Our tax dollars are being used for a national security state that can eventually be used against the people, and probably has been at this point.

    The laws against the Feds using the military against US citizens has already been breached.

  128. 128
    lou says:

    Shorter @harokin: Mr. Obama, when did you stop beating your wife?

  129. 129
    karen marie says:

    However, what is the fucking point of having such a drawn out fight? What else could folks be doing to advance #ows goals?

    I agree. The conversation has been redirected to a degree — gross inequities and inequality are now part of the conversation. I would like to see the general assemblies start talking about specific changes to policies and how to to accomplish them.

    @Tim I:

    Almost all the marchers at Civil Rights protests. Not all of them were in suits, but they always dressed up.

    Everybody (almost) dressed like that back then. It doesn’t matter what people wear, what matters is whether their cause is righteous. The haters are going to find some way to criticize no matter what. If all the protestors wore suits and dresses, the haters would be pointing out that things can’t be so bad if they can afford nice clothes.

  130. 130
    Tim I says:

    @William Hurley:

    Please don’t make stuff up. Do you have any evidence to support this? I doubt it.

  131. 131
    Mnemosyne says:

    @William Hurley:

    Sorry, which part of Mayor Quan’s comments said that she had coordinated specifically with the federal government? Her statement indicated to me that she had coordinated with the other mayors on the call.

    And guess what? That’s what the guy who wrote the story that kicked this whole thing off thinks, too:

    I have a hunch that Mayor Quan might have been referring to a conference call between a number of U.S. mayors in her interview, not one with law enforcement officials. But that’s just a hunch on my part, since her office has so far declined to offer any explanation of her comments to me.

    So, basically, you’re making claims that the original reporter says are not correct, and claiming that his reporting backs you up even though he clearly says it doesn’t because, um, shut up, that’s why.

  132. 132
    different-church-lady says:

    Eff… we’re down the rabbit hole again.

  133. 133
    shano says:

    How does one explain the Seattle protest being shut down in the most vicious way (pregnant woman, child, old blind woman with cane and a priest getting pepper sprayed)
    After the Seattle city council unanimously passed a resolution in support of the Occupy Seattle camp?

  134. 134
    cat48 says:

    It just doesn’t matter to me anymore what happened b/c Michael Moore twittered that Obama ordered them and then went on Keith Olbermann and added to the story. Today, Naomi Wolf tweeted it several times and then went on msnbc and told everyone that Obama ordered them and added to the story. It’s over. It is what it is to everyone.

    Most xcommunity organizers love them a good protest if their message is usable. I just doubt he even cares what the cities do with OWS. Just no scandals from the Feds, please, as 2012 is close. I think OWS will be fine b/c they have several spokesman from the 1%. They’ll rebrand it somehow and carry on as Adbusters advises them to.

  135. 135
    Mnemosyne says:

    @JGabriel:

    How is a single, anonymous, source — in an unreliable, conservative funded, outlet for unedited and unverified essays by anyone with a rant to publish — “credible”?

    Because it proves Obama = Bush. Duh.

  136. 136
    William Hurley says:

    @different-church-lady:

    A) Thanks for your implicit acceptance of the truth of the premise.

    B) Not all Mayors nor all local pols are patsies.

    C) Seattle’s city council issued a joint statement of support for Occupiers there. Never-the-less, the para-military enforcers of VSP’s demands went ahead with horrifying results.

    Here’s a question for you and anyone else here with the moxy to tackle.

    What is it that drives your blanket rejection of idea, let alone truth, of the involvement of the Obama Administration in not only these latest invasions but of the hand-in-glove relationship between Executive branch law enforcement and local law enforcement throughout the course of the Occupy movement’s emergence?

  137. 137
    Linnaeus says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Valley Forge, anyone?

    I think they have something a bit more hospitable in mind.

  138. 138
    JGabriel says:

    @William Hurley:

    DHS had a presence on SW 3rd, SW 4th and NW 10th as permanent as that of the Occupiers. It was DHS and PDX cops who “dislodged” “Occupiers” from the “pristine” public parks of the Pearl District’s condo towers and appropriately costumed residents.
    __
    The truth is that ABL and the rest of the o-bot swarm expect people to believe that …

    OMG, look! Up in the sky! Black helicopters are laughing at us!

    .

  139. 139
    William Hurley says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Anonymous?

    Mayor Jean Quan is not anonymous.

    Again, you’re impulsive fealty ruins your “reasoning”.

  140. 140
    Mnemosyne says:

    @cat48:

    It just doesn’t matter to me anymore what happened b/c Michael Moore twittered that Obama ordered them and then went on Keith Olbermann and added to the story. Today, Naomi Wolf tweeted it several times and then went on msnbc and told everyone that Obama ordered them and added to the story. It’s over. It is what it is to everyone.

    Yep. And yet we had some jackhole on here yesterday whining that we turn everything into firebaggers vs. Obots.

    Newsflash, firebaggers: when you’re the ones who get your guys onto the major media outlets to push your crazy conspiracy theories, you’re not the little guys pushing against the big, bad Obots.

  141. 141
    different-church-lady says:

    @William Hurley:

    A) Thanks for your implicit acceptance of the truth of the premise.

    I see your delusions are not limited to OWS or the Feds.

    I do hope nobody lets you near any general assemblies in the future.

  142. 142
    shano says:

    The AP also reported that over 40 police department coordinated on how to deal with the Occupy Movement.

  143. 143
    Mnemosyne says:

    @William Hurley:

    What is it that drives your blanket rejection of idea, let alone truth, of the involvement of the Obama Administration in not only these latest invasions but of the hand-in-glove relationship between Executive branch law enforcement and local law enforcement throughout the course of the Occupy movement’s emergence?

    Other than the fact that we’re not paranoid conspiracy theorists who see jackbooted federal thugs behind every grassy knoll?

    You may be willing to believe things without proof. Heck, judging by your posts here, you think that anything that disproves what you already believe is just more proof that you’re right. But I’m not sure why you think the rest of us should automatically follow you down your fact-free rabbit hole.

  144. 144
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mnemosyne: Forget it Jake, it’s Wonderland.

  145. 145
    William Hurley says:

    @JGabriel:

    Yet another o-bot repurposing loony right-wing memes thinking his snark is savvy and savage without realizing he’s his own victim in this latest instance of drive-by rhetoric.

    The presence of DHS vehicles and troops around the perimeters of Occupy’s camps in Portland are unimpeachable facts.

    What is it about Obama’s involvement through his instruments of law enforcement that upsets you so?

    Is the motley myth you’re swaddled in fraying?

  146. 146
    JGabriel says:

    @William Hurley:

    Mayor Jean Quan is not anonymous.

    And a conference call with other mayors is not coordination with DHS and the Feds.

    .

  147. 147
    Mnemosyne says:

    @William Hurley:

    I see you carefully skimmed past the part where the guy who originally reported the story now says that Quan was not referring to the feds when she talked about the conference call. So the one itty-bitty “fact” that you were clinging to so you could prove Obama’s involvement has been ripped out from under you by the very person who set you off.

    And yet you still go on, like a zombie whose legs have rotted away but still pulls himself forward on his decaying arms. Sad, really.

  148. 148
    different-church-lady says:

    @William Hurley: I get it now: you’re a shtick troll who’s just dicking with us..

  149. 149
    eemom says:

    If the English language were a detainee Hurley-burly would be a war criminal.

  150. 150
    atdnext says:

    Weird. My comment isn’t posting.

    Anyway, the new PPP poll doesn’t look good for OWS. Honestly, the anarchists have caused nothing but problems for the overall movement. And I don’t think it helps to try to turn this into some Obama vs. OWS fight. Who’s been trying to get more jobs for the 99%? And who is constantly blocking progress?

  151. 151
    KS in MA says:

    @MikeJ: The civil rights protesters were also tremendously disciplined, in a Gandhian way– so that, e.g., they weren’t merely nonviolent, they also expected to be arrested, beaten, etc. Oh, and they had pretty good leadership too.

  152. 152
    Mnemosyne says:

    Also, too, for all the bashing of the original reporter that’s been going on, I have to say that I’ve been impressed by the fact that he seems to be reporting it all pretty responsibly (take a look at my link to his updates in #129). It’s not his fault, really, that Moore and Wolfe glommed onto one small part, blew it up almost beyond recognition, and sprayed it all over the universe.

  153. 153
    William Hurley says:

    @different-church-lady:

    How unsurprising. An o-bot cherry-picked a piece of an analysis hoping to muster a retort to that one point and thereby render the whole moot.

    Your failure to compose a successful rebuttal has undermined your pithy posturing.

    I’m of a mind to again ask you to address the fears or other motivations behind your reflexive denials, but then I realized that your menu of acceptable answers does not include fact-based thinking.

    It is sad to see because those such as you are the core fatalists wedding the Democratic Party to a unelectable incumbent President.

  154. 154
    JGabriel says:

    @William Hurley: Hey, what’s going on with torture these days? I saw your team was still cheering it on at the last GOP debate. I’m assuming you identify as a conservative or libertarian, correct me if I’m wrong.

    So, yeah, I don’t really give a lot of credibility to counter-information being distributed by right-wing outlets like Philip Anshutz‘s Examiner right-wing propaganda distribution franchise.

    .

  155. 155
    shano says:

    We should be demanding answers on this alleged involvement at the very least. Everyone has shut up and clamped down on any statements regarding any coordination whatsoever.

    it just seems a bit odd no one will talk about how this was organized, who provided the conference calls, how the police coordinated nation wide etc.

  156. 156
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @cleek:

    why does it matter if the evictions were “coordinated” ?

    If you think “coordinated” means “Obama coordinated a network of jackbooted thugs to purge the public square of dissidents,” then it would matter a lot. If you think “coordinated” means “Law enforcement from various cities talked together and to the feds about what to do,” then, no, it wouldn’t matter in the least.

  157. 157
    different-church-lady says:

    @William Hurley: Yeah, you had me going there for a second. Pretty good stuff, man — really deadpan. Wonder how long it’s gonna take the others to catch on.

  158. 158
    different-church-lady says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    If you think “coordinated” means “Law enforcement from various cities talked together and to the feds about what to do,” then, no, it wouldn’t matter in the least.

    Well, no, it would matter somewhat. Just not nearly as much as certain elements want you to think.

  159. 159
    William Hurley says:

    @JGabriel:

    “My team”?

    Do tell?

    I guess that in your fascist little world, life-long Democrats who diverge from your dearly held positions must therefore be “other”. You parrot mini-minded right-wing in-group rationalization well.

    On another note, I was unaware that Oakland Mayor Quan worked for Anschutz. Irony aside, I’m curious as to why you’ve chosen to ignore the plain language of a sitting Democratic Mayor? Is it that the distraction of ad hominem “argument” is easier than coming into contact with reality?

  160. 160
    Tony J says:

    @Egg Berry:

    It must have been Sherman. he was a character that way.

    Tru’dat. Bill always gets the job done. My grandmother trained him well.

    As to your other points, I suppose that what people are saying is that, while society at large is more than big enough contain multitudes, when you want to get a majority of mainstream society to take you seriously on important topics, through a media filter that will always take the easiest route to dicrediting you, it helps if your spokesmen aren’t immediately stereotypable as “people society at large is already conditioned by Media to consider ‘non-mainstream by choice'”.

    No, it’s not fair, or right, or good, but it’s a fact of life in wider society. If you look like something they don’t want to be associated with, they won’t listen to anything you say, regardless of how well you say it. The Teabaggers were able to say any crazy thing they liked and still get a hearing from ‘Average Americans’ because they looked like them. The tricorn hats and Revolutionary Era chic on the sidelines was embarassing, but it was the kind of embarrasing that could be waved away as an authentically ‘American’ kind of middle-aged geekiness. That changed when the Teabaggers pushed their most extreme voices to the forefront and exposed themselves as non-mainstream partisans who really meant all those crazy things they said.

    When you’ve got a chunky guy in a T-Shirt explaining the aims and motivations of OWS calmly and with a sense of humour it’s dangerous to the 1%, which is why said guy hasn’t been on TV since he bitchslapped the talking points the Media want to push about OWS all over the place, and why they’ve gone all-in on presenting OWS as a bunch of incoherant, smelly, lawless anarchists who just want to wreck things.

    According to the latest polls, they’re succeeding. The 1% aren’t going to change tactics when they seem to be working, are they? So it’s up to OWS to smarten up in more than one sense of the word. Inequality is now on the agenda the way it wan’t a year ago, and that’s down to all of those people who got off their arses to force the issue into people’s minds. One battle was won, but the war won’t be won with unchanging tactics.

    YMMV.

  161. 161
    shano says:

    Of course we have a lot of history of this Federal action against citizens in America:

    “COINTELPRO” was the FBI’s frequently illegal “counter-intelligence program” that targeted, among others, the Civil Rights movement, the American Indian Movement (AIM), and the anti-war/student organizations in the Vietnam era. Lead by Director J. Edgar Hoover, the program sought to surveil, infiltrate, disrupt, and discredit those organizations that were deemed “threats” to the war machine. The program had a number of tactics for accomplishing these goals, with the “agent provocateur” being one that could coordinate the others.

    During this general period, the Nixon administration proposed what was known as the Huston Plan. The Huston Plan was actually parent to Dick Cheney’s “Patriot Act.” The idea was to have local, state, and federal police agencies – in cooperation with military intelligence – participate in the surveillance, infiltration, discrediting, and often violent disruption of targeted groups, which were frequently doing little more than exercising their Amendment 1 rights.

    Among the best-known documents from that era was Director Hoover’s March 4, 1968 memorandum, outlining a strategy “for maximum effectiveness of the Counterintelligence Program, and to prevent wasted effort, (in which) long-range goals are being set … (to) prevent the coalition of militant black nationalist groups ….(and) prevent the rise of a ‘messiah’ who could unifuy, and electrify, the militant black nationalist movement. Malcolm X might have been such a ‘messiah’….”

    But Malcolm had been murdered in Harlem in 1965. Officially, the police and courts ruled that he was the victim of a plot by the Nation of Islam. However, it is known that one of NOI leader Elijah Muhammad’s top aides was an FBI agent. More, during the weeks before his murder, and indeed upon the very day, Malcolm’s inner circle had been infiltrated by Gene A. Roberts. (Photos of the scene show Roberts bending over Malcolm’s lifeless body on the stage of the Teresa Hotel.)

    In January of 1969, Black Panther John Higgins was murdered at UCLA; Gene Roberts would serve as a member of the Black Panther Honor Guard at Higgins’ funeral. Later that year, at the “Panther 21” trial, Roberts was a prosecution witness; it was then revealed he was a long-time member of the New York City Police’s Special Services – a department which had ties to local, state, and national police forces, as well as to military intelligence.

    Roberts was forced to admit, while being cross-examined by defense attorneys, that had supplied guns to the Black Panthers, and that he had advocated numerous illegal and violent actions.”

    Same as it ever was.

  162. 162
    Yevgraf says:

    @shano:

    We should be demanding answers on this alleged involvement at the very least. Everyone has shut up and clamped down on any statements regarding any coordination whatsoever.

    it just seems a bit odd no one will talk about how this was organized, who provided the conference calls, how the police coordinated nation wide etc.

    Mmmm – so how do you feel about Obama’s birf certificate?

  163. 163
    Mnemosyne says:

    @shano:

    I think you may have a somewhat odd idea of how major cities communicate with one another these days. Organizations like the US Conference of Mayors or the National League of Cities are constantly meeting with each other and discussing issues that the various cities are facing. The mayors or city managers of the cities dealing with the Occupy movement wouldn’t need any kind of facilitation by the feds to work together — they’ve had organizations that help them do that for decades.

    The most likely scenario is that the mayors requested advice from the FBI and/or Homeland Security as they have done in the past, not that the federal government somehow stepped in and forced the mayors to act.

  164. 164
    William Hurley says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Ahh! A text book case.

    If I can’t be made to agree, nor forced to concede, then I must – by force of abused logic – be the “other”.

    Sorry to upset you, but I’ve never been a fan of Kool-aid served by idolaters.

    Given your persistence, I guess I will try again.

    What is it that you would “lose” if it is the case that Obama’s people were actively involved in monitoring and coordinating the means of invading and dislocating Occupy camps around the nation?

  165. 165
    different-church-lady says:

    @Tony J:

    Inequality is now on the agenda the way it wan’t a year ago, and that’s down to all of those people who got off their arses to force the issue into people’s minds. One battle was won, but the war won’t be won with unchanging tactics.

    Amen.

  166. 166
    different-church-lady says:

    @William Hurley: What a performance! You never break character!

  167. 167
    Yevgraf says:

    @shano:

    And like a retarded fucking parrot, you went back to the 60s.

    Jesus H Christ on a stick.

  168. 168
    Mnemosyne says:

    @William Hurley:

    Irony aside, I’m curious as to why you’ve chosen to ignore the plain language of a sitting Democratic Mayor?

    You mean the “plain language” that even the original reporter believes referred to a conference call between the various mayors and not to a call with the federal government? That “plain language”?

  169. 169
    FlipYrWhig says:

    I’m telling you, William Hurley is actually Dr. Smith from “Lost in Space.” Stylometrics will prove it.

  170. 170
    cat48 says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Today, I no longer care if someone is wrong on the internet!
    The baggers on both sides have their own reality. I’ve unfollowed them on the twitter & ignore their comments on blogs; from this day forward.

  171. 171
    ruemara says:

    @shano: Um, the id on the arresting officer’s arm clearly says “Police”. What else do you have that says they were DHS? Like, say, a clearly marked DHS jacket?

  172. 172
    Mnemosyne says:

    @cat48:

    I’ve still got about 15 minutes left on my lunch break, so I still care. Until I need to surf away to do some internet Christmas shopping, anyway.

  173. 173
    Yevgraf says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    The most likely scenario is that the mayors requested advice from the FBI and/or Homeland Security as they have done in the past, not that the federal government somehow stepped in and forced the mayors to act.

    Nonono – keep with the theme. Somehow, Obama MADE them do it through the supersecret application of mindrays or some hidden statutes.

    Next thing you know, emoprogs are going to start buying the arguments of fake emoprogs on the gold fringed flag controversy.

  174. 174
    shano says:

    The silence from Mayors and Police Departments on this nation wide action is deafening.

    They could clear this up. Why dont you all start asking them?

  175. 175
    shano says:

    And, sorry to say, one has to go back to the 1960s to find an example of populist movements on a large scale and the reaction of the Federal government.

    We have a much larger and more well equipped apparatus for Federal action. I think we need to know if they are using it. If you do not learn from history…etc

  176. 176
    Mnemosyne says:

    @shano:

    Since I’m pretty sure a majority of us think that the mayors colluded with one another, I’m not sure what it is you think we need to ask.

    What we’re pushing back against is the idea that the federal government “coordinated” everything and forced their will on the poor, innocent mayors. Personally, I think the mayors are probably well capable of being shitty assholes all on their own without requiring marching orders from the feds to make them so.

  177. 177
    Yevgraf says:

    @shano:

    The silence from Mayors and Police Departments Obama on this nation wide action birth certificate question is deafening.

    They He could clear this up. Why dont you all start asking themhim??

  178. 178
    FlipYrWhig says:

    FYI, there’s a new comment by digby at the end of the previous ABL thread.

  179. 179
    amused says:

    Heehee! There is now a credible source: Michael Moore!

  180. 180
    JGabriel says:

    @William Hurley:

    … life-long Democrat …

    Fine. My position on DHS and/or FBI involvemnt is: I think it’s unlikely, but I don’t know. If a credible report with multiple sources comes out confirming it, I’ll be mildly surprised, but not shocked.

    The Quan quote is that she was on conference call. It’s not indicative of anything on its own.

    My question for you is, why are so determined to believe a source, Examiner.com, owned by a conservative billionaire, that is known for publishing unverified and unedited reports favoring right-wing memes? Why no doubts, caveats, or restraint?

    .

  181. 181
    Yevgraf says:

    @shano:

    And, sorry to say, one has to go back to the 1960s to find an example of populist movements on a large scale and the reaction of the Federal government.

    We have a much larger and more well equipped apparatus for Federal action. I think we need to know if they are using it. If you do not learn from history…etc

    Chemtrails! And HAARP!!!!

  182. 182
    KS in MA says:

    @Cain: Wow, stereotypes is right. Thanks for the link. I wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t heard it.

  183. 183
    different-church-lady says:

    @amused: Oh for ducks sake… Moore’s info comes to him in a roundabout way from the Examiner, and then the Examiner quotes Moore sourcing… the Examiner?

    I mean… I’m at a loss for analogy here. Mobius strip? Cat chasing its tail? Circle jerk?

  184. 184
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Mnemosyne: I’m picturing the mayors’ conference call turning to questions like, “What legal basis can we cite for getting those annoying hippies out of our parks?” and then thinking, “You know, we could talk to the actual DoJ about that.”

    But once again the particular weirdness is arising as “Federal coordination” meaning “the mayors turned to the Feds, who then took charge” vs. “the mayors talked to each other and also the Feds.” If you want to draw links to COINTELPRO and whatnot, you have to hear that first option. Even when it’s a stretch or specifically refuted.

    ETA: “Annoying hippies” in the above is the mayors’ view. I support OWS and my brother is an organizer in the Pacific NW who has worked on media strategy for Occupy and Occupy-like actions.

  185. 185
    amused says:

    @different-church-lady: Exactly! I found the link amongst the people at GOS trying to tell the idiots that the source is stupid. Sadly, most at GOS are like these idiots here. Truthiness wins with the shanos of the world.

  186. 186
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @different-church-lady: M.C. Escher drinking hooch from a Klein bottle.

  187. 187
    cleek says:

    @different-church-lady:
    it’s an Ouroboros of fail.

  188. 188
    Mnemosyne says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    She had an interesting link to a DHS “threat assessment” report in one of her updates where DHS basically said, “There’s no threat from the actual protesters, but keep an eye out for jerks who try to capitalize on the distraction of the protest.”

    Why it’s a huge scary problem for the DHS to do a threat assessment and decide there isn’t a threat, I’m not really sure. Isn’t that kind of the point of doing an assessment?

  189. 189
    ruemara says:

    You guys pushing this as true are idiots. There is no co-ordination or every major occupy group would have been hit at the same time. Mayors and governors have associations and groups that conference all the time on issues. And yes, this would be an issue. Same thing with police forces. But it’s easier for you to need it to be proved that the PRESIDENT had DHS force police to crack down on groups of people that think camping is protesting for change. got it.

  190. 190
    different-church-lady says:

    @amused: I watched with great fascination their various ‘proofs’ that Weiner didn’t Twitter his junk. I think that’s when I finally understood I wasn’t hanging with people who were the most they could be when it came to intellectual maturity.

  191. 191
    different-church-lady says:

    @ruemara:

    There is no co-ordination or every major occupy group would have been hit at the same time.

    Oh… ummm… wait, I got it: that would be too obvious! They had to hit just a handful or everyone would have seen the nationwide coordination that’s so obvious to anyone who knows the real truth.

    Yeah, that’s it… that’s the ticket.

  192. 192
    shano says:

    We have all seen how the Obama position on certain issues, (like medical marijuana for instance) has been co-opted by Federal law enforcement.

    He was on his way to Australia during the raids. Not saying he was involved, just that the security apparatus we have now has been making its own decisions, regardless of any Obama statements.

  193. 193
    geg6 says:

    @Anya:

    See, I cannot imagine why you think that a leaderless, spokesperson deficient group of assorted anarchists, libertarians, nihilists, environmentalists, advocates for the poor, and college students (among others) with no achievable goals would be the movement that all of America would rally around. It would have eventually had to propose something, which brings it into the political realm and that’s where reality would come crashing down on all the disparate interests that made up OWS and kill the whole thing in bickering and acrimony, which I believe was already beginning to happen according many reports from reporters who’ve been covering this since the start.

    Todd Gitlin has a good post up at Salon about what next. All the OWS supporters should read it and think about how to carry out his suggestions.

  194. 194
    Ruckus says:

    @different-church-lady:
    I’d go with circle jerk. Stronger evidence that direction.

  195. 195
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .

    the government can place reasonable restrictions on speech

    Fortunately, that is so true, especially for political free speech. And President Obama and the rest of the 1 percent will inform you what is reasonable in your exercise of your political free speech rights: where your political free speech can take place, when your political free speech can take place, how loud your political speech can be, who is allowed to hear your political free speech, how offensive your political free speech can be to the ruling 1 percent, and when the Constitutionally mandated time limit on your political free speech has expired.
    .
    .

  196. 196
    Zandar says:

    But unmarked helicopters.

    Hovering.

  197. 197
    lawguy says:

    @different-church-lady: I suspose the accuseds previous modius operandi would have some impact on ones thinking.

    And what about the Oakland mayor?

  198. 198
    lawguy says:

    @Mnemosyne: Are you kidding were you even alive when Malcolm X was alive? Do you know how he was marginalized by the same kind of people who are marginalizing OWS now?

  199. 199
    Marc says:

    @lawguy:

    He was marginalized because he said some incredibly hateful, extreme, and divisive things. The New Left had some ugly aspects and a really extreme fringe too.

  200. 200
    lawguy says:

    @Tim I: Well at least you’ve changed you claim from the last thread from not talking to just not talking to the media, so I guess that is an advance. But you still haven’t provided specifics as to when and where and what you changed.

    By the way, I do remember the funeral services for Chaney (watched them on TV). Do you remember what the SNCC people were wearing? Bib overhauls, that is what.

    There is this perfect protest time in the past where people were just, you know nice, and they accomplished just a lot. Ask the communists how that worked for them in the late 40s and early 50s in this country. You are making up a world that never existed to prove that OWS is just not the right sort of people.

  201. 201
    shano says:

    Homeland Security at San Francisco occupy:

    http://i.imgur.com/B1YK2.jpg

  202. 202
    shano says:

    I will note that the Feds didnt just ‘occupy’ the Black Panther Movement.

    The Feds occupied the Native American Movement, the Anti Vietnam War movement, the Quakers, the Civil Rights Movement, the protests against the World Bank and the IMF,the Anti Iraq War movement, etc.

    With this history, why shouldn’t Americans think the Feds had something to do with the present day Occupy Wall Street Movement? It is more likely than not.

  203. 203
    lawguy says:

    @Mnemosyne: Well that makes me feel much better.

  204. 204
  205. 205
    lawguy says:

    @Marc: The point I was responding to was how he was dressed. He was marginalized and he dressed as middle class as he could, so people’s pointing to Malcolm X as an exemplar of what to do and how to accomplish something is simply off base.

  206. 206
    MJ says:

    I’m willing to believe that U.S. localities may have tried to coordinate their actions re: the occupy camps. And maybe you all can convince me that they contacted DHS for support.

    But riddle me this folks… am I supposed to believe that DHS “jackbooted thugs” are also responsible for the recent police actions at a variety of international Occupy sites as well? (Word Press won’t let me link them, but Check Google-foo for articles abou the recent police actions in Toronto, Calgary, London, Sydney, Melbourne, Zurich.)

    Keep in mind folks that this is the same department that is in charge of the geniuses who routinely fail to the obvious dummy weapons that their own inspectors have planted in carry on luggage.

  207. 207
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @shano:

    Didja look above the white DHS busses with blacked out windows to see if any black DHS helicopters were hovering above, weeping about poorly written credenzas?

    That would lock it up for me. A photo would be even better.

  208. 208
    shano says:

    Odie, I can only say what I saw on Interstate 17 going north a few years ago. WTF does Homeland Security need busses? Especially huge white busses with black-out windows.
    I am sure they are on some purchase report somewhere in the layers of the vast security state we have accumulated over the decades.

  209. 209
    different-church-lady says:

    @shano:

    WTF does Homeland Security need busses?

    Probably the same reason Greyhound needs busses: to move groups of people from one location to another.

    No, seriously, I can’t believe you people are for real. You gotta be spoofing us.

  210. 210
    shano says:

    MJ, the war on terror changes everything. We do not know what the CIA is up to, even members of Congress do not know what they do most of the time. Funny that we are seeing the exact same tactics all over the world. We now have a huge army of international mercenaries and corporations who ‘consult’ with governments all over the world, like Xe.

    It may have something to do with the armament corporations ‘Hey, these are the best riot shields! the best night vision goggles! the best shin protectors for crowd control!’ the most effective police batons ever! the best tasers with all the features!.

    We export this crap and this mindset through corporate entities all over the western world.

  211. 211
    shano says:

    different church lady: get over it. It was a weird sight, thats all. it creeped me out.

  212. 212
    Mnemosyne says:

    @shano:

    WTF does Homeland Security need busses? Especially huge white busses with black-out windows.

    You do know that Homeland Security is now in charge of immigration, right? And that we detain illegal immigrants?

  213. 213
    Mnemosyne says:

    @lawguy:

    Nope, I wasn’t alive then — the man died four years before I was born, which makes me 42 years old now (43 in 2012). But I notice that you completely missed my point, anyway.

  214. 214
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @shano: DHS includes Immigration. Could be a bus full of suspected illegal immigrants. Not that that’s a particularly wonderful use of a bus, but it would explain why DHS might have a bus fleet.

  215. 215
    FlipYrWhig says:

    Ah, Mnem got there first… again.

  216. 216
    Comrade Luke says:

    My only thought is that when you’re pepper spraying 84-yr-old women, you’re doing it wrong.

  217. 217
    shano says:

    http://www.democracynow.org/20.....tests_from

    Stephen Graham agrees with me. ” Cities Under Seige: The New Military Urbanism”

  218. 218
    rootless_e says:

    @The Moar You Know: He is effective. Just a question of goals. He was quite effective in helping GW Bush into office.

  219. 219
    eemom says:

    @rootless_e:

    why do you say that? Honest question; I have no knowledge of any influence he had in the 2000 election. Was he a Naderite or a Gore-basher?

  220. 220
    rootless_e says:

    @eemom: Yes he was a naderite who both said anyone with principles should either vote for Nader or not vote at all and also assured everyone that there was no danger of Bush taking office.

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