Police Evict OWS Protestors “Temporarily”

From the NYTimes:

Hundreds of New York City police officers began clearing Zuccotti Park of the Occupy Wall Street protesters early Tuesday, telling the people there that the nearly two-month-old camp would be “cleared and restored” before the morning and that any demonstrator who did not leave would be arrested…
__
The mayor’s office sent out a message on Twitter at 1:34 a.m. saying: “Occupants of Zuccotti should temporarily leave and remove tents and tarps. Protesters can return after the park is cleared.”
__
The police move came as organizers put out word on their Web site that they planned to “shut down Wall Street” with a demonstration on Thursday to commemorate the completion of two months of the beginning of the encampment, which has spurred similar demonstrations across the country.
__
The move also came hours after a small demonstration at City Hall on Monday by opponents of the protest, including local residents and merchants, some of whom urged the mayor to clear out the park.
__
Before the police moved in, they set up a battery of klieg lights and aimed them into the park. A police captain, wearing a helmet, walked down Liberty Street and announced: “The city has determined that the continued occupation Zuccotti Park poses an increasing health and fire safety hazard.”…
__
About 2 a.m., police officers began using a vehicle equipped with a powerful speaker to issue their orders. City sanitation workers tossed protesters’ belongings into metal bins, while some protesters dug in at the center of the park by using heavy bicycle chains to bind themselves to park trees and to each other. Some donned gas masks and goggles.
__
About 200 supporters of the protesters arrived early Tuesday after hearing that the park was being cleared. They were prevented from getting within a block of the park by a police barricade. There were a number of arrests after some scuffles between the two sides, but no details were immediately available. After being forced up Broadway by the police, some of the supporters decided to march several blocks to Foley Square…

OccupyWallSt.org link here. Guardian live updates (since it’s closer to business hours in the UK, they may move quicker than journos on EST) here.

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136 replies
  1. 1
    RalfMaximus says:

    Nothing odd about all this happening at 2:00 AM, is there?

    If this was just a standard cleaning/maintenance operation wouldn’t it make more sense for it to occur during daylight hours?

    Something is off with the official narrative.

  2. 2
    Jenny says:

    The police move came as organizers put out word on their Web site that they planned to “shut down Wall Street” with a demonstration on Thursday to commemorate the completion of two months of the beginning of the encampment

    When I heard about this, I knew Bloomberg would freak. He’s intricately tied to the stock market via his business:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomberg_Terminal

    New York made a big mistake in electing some one with so many ongoing conflicts of interest.

  3. 3
    mettle says:

    Symbolic is the fact that they unceremoniously dumped the OWS library — all 5000 books — right into the trash.
    At least they didn’t burn them.

  4. 4
    Naive and Sentimental says:

    First saw the news on crooks and liars doing a final news scan before bed. Feed on livestream died about ten minutes ago.

    It seems like the new excuse to break up protests in all its banality is sanitation. It was complains about ‘damage’ protestors caused to the legislative building in Wisconsin and the first attempt to disperse OWS was to ‘clean the park.’

    I’m rather shocked things are going this far in multiple cities now. They are just that entrenched in their need to get rid of the protests or that sure no one will pay it any mind

  5. 5
    Megan says:

    Leave peacefully, come back peacefully the next day. I think this eviction is a public relations opportunity that will in fact benefit OWS movement.

  6. 6
  7. 7
    SixStringFanatic says:

    As someone commented at The Guardian’s liveblog, “Protest is now unsanitary and free thought a disease.”

  8. 8
    joeshabadoo says:

    @Jenny:
    Whenever I hear “Bloomberg” I think of his business interests on Wall Street first since his name is on everything. I imagine this is the same for a lot of people.

    To think he would ever go against Wall Street is delusional. He was just biding his time and hoping it would die down before he had to get hippy blood on his shoes.

    The entire reason the media fluffs him is because they call him a “centrist” which means he subscribes to Republican economics but bucks the culture wars. The culture wars were always a way to ignore their odious policies yet somehow this guy gets fluffed for throwing away the cover.

  9. 9
    Urza says:

    health and fire risk is seriously the best they can come up with after 2 months?

  10. 10
    Joseph Nobles says:

    OT: McQueary saying in email to friends and former teammates that he did not turn and run when faced with Sundusky raping kid.

    I did the right thing… you guys know me… the truth is not out there fully… I didn’t just turn and run… I made sure it stopped… I had to make quick tough decisions.

    That’s certainly not the impression I got from the grand jury report, nor did a lot of people. There’s nothing about him interceding. In fact, though stating that he was sure Sandusky and the kid both saw him could mean he had taken further action, it’s a very odd way of putting it.

    And there’s still the matter of continuing to work at a place where nothing substantial had been done about a child rapist.

  11. 11
    Joseph Nobles says:

    Also, did police say the camp would be cleared and restored, or the park? The Times seems to have gotten that backward.

  12. 12
    joeshabadoo says:

    @Joseph Nobles: The question with McQueary is whether he could go somewhere else.
    If he tried to leave they would have definitely destroyed his chances of going anywhere else. People can’t leave the mob because they know its secrets.

  13. 13
    Joseph Nobles says:

    One more thing: I think we can definitely say that Twitter is suppressing the trending information with regard to this movement. Currently the phrases “Foley Square” (where protestors are gathering) and “The NYPD” are trending worldwide and in the United States, but OWS and OccupyWallStreet are not. I don’t see how that could be possible except for the OWS and OccupyWallStreet phrases being blocked from appearing on Twitter’s trending list.

  14. 14
    DLewOnRoids says:

    Someone (Taibbi?) needs to do the story of how the high-profile Occupy protests (Oakland, NY) are being booted in what appears to be a coordinated effort. There’s a media strategy being employed here, too, as the cities are being described as being “fed up” with the protestors in a lot of the MSM.

  15. 15
    spartacus says:

    Another good source of information is WBAI online, which has people calling in with live reports:
    http://stream.wbai.org/

    They’re part of Pacifica radio.

    Several people have stated that some kind of chemical agent has been used on the park, not tear gas, and also that press is being kept away so there is less documentation that there has been in other police raids.

  16. 16
    SFPoet says:

    “Cleaning” is just an excuse to try and shut down OWS. “Protesters will not be allowed to bring tents” etc. after the “temporary eviction.” It’s not going to work though, this is just going to make the movement stronger.

    I’ve already heard through the grapevine that west coast occupy camps are starting to plan actions (marches?) in response to tonight’s raid.

    A brief video posted on twitter proves that NYPD did use tear gas or other chemical agent tonight, and literally dragged protesters out of the park.

  17. 17
    Samara Morgan says:

    Like Julian predicts, America is being a police state on the way to NLS collapse.
    During the OpBart protests (which were religiously ignored at BJ) the free speech rights of the protestors were taken away by the authorities by shutting down the activists cell phones.

    That is what Khamenei did during the Sea of Green protests.
    How is America different from Iran again?

  18. 18
    Joseph Nobles says:

    @SFPoet: If that’s the kitchen area, people who were there quickly said that it was a fire extenguisher being deployed (I’m guessing accidentally) and not tear gas.

  19. 19
    bin Lurkin' says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    How is America different from Iran again?

    Obama is on the side of the protesters?

    I’m sure he’ll be having a beer summit with OWS real soon now.

  20. 20
    JGabriel says:

    The police action seems, from what I’ve seen written so far, to be aggressive but not violent:

    [Ben Swenson, an activist,] said he was hit on the head by a police baton, but believes it was by mistake. “Well, they said sorry,” Swenson said.

    I know this is serious, but that the cop stopped to say “Sorry” kind of cracks me up.

    .

  21. 21
    JGabriel says:

    @Megan:

    Leave peacefully, come back peacefully the next day. I think this eviction is a public relations opportunity that will in fact benefit OWS movement.

    Potentially, if they play it correctly. But there’s also the concern that they won’t be let back in, despite whatever they’re being told now. And throwing away everyone’s books, supplies, etc., seems needlessly provocative.

    .

  22. 22
    WereBear says:

    Throwing out 5000 books is a clear message that they aren’t supposed to come back.

  23. 23
    bin Lurkin' says:

    I’m so old I can remember a popular tale about agents of the state charged with destroying books.

    But “It Can’t Happen Here”, eh?

  24. 24
    Samara Morgan says:

    This seems very reminiscent of the Sea of Green protests in Tehran.
    The Basiij and the Guard blocked the street access to different squares to keep the Greens from grouping up.

  25. 25
    TheStone says:

    @Samara Morgan: No snipers yet.

  26. 26
    xian says:

    so glad that Julian has this covered for us

  27. 27
    Samara Morgan says:

    @bin Lurkin’: you dont understand Obama a’tall.
    he is fighting a rear guard action to stave off NLS collapse long enough for the demographic timer to go off.
    everything is a Kepler Trigo decision matrix until then, and then (hopefully) America can actually escape from Distributed Jesusland.
    possibly.

    or we can just be the New England.
    :)

  28. 28
    Samara Morgan says:

    @TheStone: just wait.

  29. 29
    Samara Morgan says:

    great movie title, i think….
    Escape from Distributed Jesusland

  30. 30
    Samara Morgan says:

    @TheStone: the Basiij are just a militia.
    If you read any conservative blogs, the conservitards hate OWS just as much as the Basiij hated the Greens.
    if O gets re-elected i could certainly see conservative militias in the streets.
    there is a whole year to go.
    Like i said, you will see men bark like dogs and speak in tongues in the run up to 2012.

    The Wingularity is near.

  31. 31
    Joseph Nobles says:

    Bloomberg’s statement on the overnight action:

    Some have argued to allow the protestors to stay in the park indefinitely – others have suggested we just wait for winter and hope the cold weather drove the protestors away – but inaction was not an option. I could not wait for someone in the park to get killed or to injure another first responder before acting. Others have cautioned against action because enforcing our laws might be used by some protestors as a pretext for violence – but we must never be afraid to insist on compliance with our laws.
    __
    Unfortunately, the park was becoming a place where people came not to protest, but rather to break laws, and in some cases, to harm others. There have been reports of businesses being threatened and complaints about noise and unsanitary conditions that have seriously impacted the quality of life for residents and businesses in this now-thriving neighborhood. The majority of protestors have been peaceful and responsible. But an unfortunate minority have not been – and as the number of protestors has grown, this has created an intolerable situation.
    __
    No right is absolute and with every right comes responsibilities. The First Amendment gives every New Yorker the right to speak out – but it does not give anyone the right to sleep in a park or otherwise take it over to the exclusion of others – nor does it permit anyone in our society to live outside the law. There is no ambiguity in the law here – the First Amendment protects speech – it does not protect the use of tents and sleeping bags to take over a public space.

    Sorry, Mike, the tents and the occupation were the speech.

  32. 32
    bin Lurkin' says:

    @TheStone:

    No snipers yet.

    No incompetent or active snipers you mean, if they were good ones you wouldn’t know they were there.

  33. 33
    bin Lurkin' says:

    @Samara Morgan: The Democrats hate OWS too, there’s a full blown flamewar going on over at DU, or would be if the mods there weren’t trying to stamp it out.

    The very strongest Dem supporters over there are hinking and jinking like a Messerschmidt pilot with a P51 on his tail to try and subtly make OWS look bad.

  34. 34
    Samara Morgan says:

    @bin Lurkin’: mebbe so. SOME democrats hate OWS i guess. BJ was hatin’ on the owwies too until Cole officially changed tack.
    The guy still has power, even though his glibertarian kumbayah alliance with the LoOGies was a failbag.

    Balloon Juice still hates Assange, WL and Anonymous.

    we shall see what happens next.

  35. 35
    TheStone says:

    @Samara Morgan: I’ve often wondered whether the armed wing of the Teatards, et al, had it in em. I don’t know; the ones I am familiar with are of a distinctive chickenhawk bent, but I am sure there are a few w/ some backbone.

  36. 36
    TheStone says:

    @bin Lurkin’: Right. No rounds downrange yet.

  37. 37
    Samara Morgan says:

    Like i said, you will see men bark like dogs and speak in tongues in the run up to 2012.

    We need look no further than the conservative candidate slate.

  38. 38
    Joel says:

    We all knew this day would come. Now the real test begins.

  39. 39
    Samara Morgan says:

    @TheStone:

    I am sure there are a few w/ some backbone.

    young ones. like the Basiij.

  40. 40
    gelfling545 says:

    It strikes me that this is a very expensive police operation against people who essentially aren’t bothering anyone except on an intellectual & moral level – a level on which most could use some bothering. I take this as an indication that the message is becoming a bit too popular.

  41. 41
    Yevgraf says:

    I’m sorry, and against the trend here, but imo the Oakland and Portland protests were a huge mistake, if only for the optics presented by the sort of left anarchist protestors they would draw. Those people simply can’t moderate their own level of stupid, and put some heavy negatives out there in the minds of the middle class folks they most need to reach.

  42. 42
    bin Lurkin' says:

    @Yevgraf: For the most part you can’t reach the middle class until they either fall out of the middle class or see the abyss yawing directly in front of them.

    That’s pretty much what being middle class is all about.

    Hell, it’s not like there isn’t enough bitching on BJ about the the fucking poor not realizing the jam they’re in and voting for the wrong people.

  43. 43
    Yevgraf says:

    Interestingly, in Louisville, our occupy group has been acting without complaint. The square they are encamped on remains tidy, and they negotiated with the city for a second location to move to when our local “light up” faith festival starts up. Every day, there’s a new theme for discussion and presentation, and never any violence or anarchy.

  44. 44
    bjacques says:

    I think the best tactic would be an ominous silence. Not attempt to reoccupy the square, but fan out to their own neighborhoods and raise political hell: GOTV efforts, signing up to staff or monitor polling places, oppo research on especially odious candidates, etc. And if confronted by news cameras, affect amnesia about the occupation.

    It’s hard to say whether winter would have done over time what the cops did overnight. This way, though, the sleaziness of the clearout works in the occupiers’s favor, and it leaves a political stink that’ll last for awhile.

    Anyway, just my take.

  45. 45
    Baron Jrod of Keeblershire says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    How is America different from Iran again?

    We know how Iran is different, because you’ve told us many times.

    According to you, when Iran executes people for saying the wrong thing, that’s justice. However, when Americans have anything at all to say about that, it’s because those Americans are bloodthirsty monsters looking to start another war.

    Of course, if you’d like to repudiate the Iranian government’s deeply unjust execution of people for the crime of being Christian, feel free. Not that a worthless fascist piece of shit like you would ever do so, of course.

    I expect another pithy response along the lines of “10 trillion dollars derp de hurr distributed Jesusland herp” or whatever you have to say to avoid admitting that you favor the brutal slayings of Christians in Islamic countries. But you know what? The darkness is inside you, and you can’t escape it.

  46. 46
    Joel says:

    @Yevgraf: To be fair, we’re discussing the difference between a handful of people and scores of them.

  47. 47
    Baron Jrod of Keeblershire says:

    @Yevgraf: Yes, those stupid hippies, it’ll be all their fault when we don’t get our ponies.

    Look, the problem with the Portland protest is the problem with Portland itself: a massive homeless population. Those horrible “anarchists” you’re bitching about were perfectly peaceful. The people who’ve been on the street for years and stopped giving a fuck long ago were not.

    This could have been a wake-up call for the city, but screw that! We can’t let giving these people a home interfere with Christmas shopping!

    The night of the scheduled eviction was almost completely peaceful. One idiot threw at firework at the cops, and that idiot was immediately shoved forward for the cops to deal with. Nobody tried to protect this reject.

    However, even if there hadn’t been an amplification of the homeless problem, and even if there had never ever been any trouble near (not at, but near) the occupied squares, and even if the parks had stayed spotless, the raid still would have happened. Those problems just made it easier to find an excuse.

    That these raids are happening around the same time nationwide is too big a coincidence.

    You think OP should just disband because they can’t keep troublemakers out? By that asinine logic we should abandon the Democratic party, because it too has its share of vandals and miscreants and traitors. But that would be stupid, right?

  48. 48
    Yevgraf says:

    Granted, its a much smaller operation, but I recently noted larger Canadian and Midwest US occupy protests that don’t devolve into destructive disorder.

    It is my earnest theory that there is no progressive issue that Oakland, Portland and Seattle leftist activist demonstrators can’t completely turn to shit.

  49. 49
    Baron Jrod of Keeblershire says:

    @Yevgraf: Oh, ok then. I guess I’ll just give up since that’s where I happen to live.

    Sorry, Occupy Portland. If you’ve lost Yevgraf, you’ve lost America. Everyone just go home and enjoy football season or Skyrim or any number of more important matters.

  50. 50
    handsmile says:

    Waking to this story this morning, I feel as if I’ve been kicked in the stomach. I am so angry and so disgusted that I’m shaking as I’m typing this.

    The utter cowardice of this action. Conducted at 1:00am. With no advance notice (shouting thru bullhorns and handing out flyers as police stomped thru the park is not “advance notice”). Establishing a cordon one block away from Zuccotti Park. All to ensure that protesters could not respond effectively or tactically. Also, to ensure that concurrent media coverage or video/photograph documentation by protesters or allies would be limited.

    A NY city councilman was arrested in the park during the police raid so that may provide some credible refutation of the lies that are now being spewed by Bloomberg and Kelly, happily peddled by the corporate media stenographers. His statement above (#31) is filled with fear-mongering and distortions, especially evident to anyone who has spent time visiting Zuccotti Park.

    The “intolerable situation” is the reign of Michael Bloomberg. He is a tyrant. This is what “democracy” looks like now in this city.

  51. 51
    Chris says:

    @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:

    However, even if there hadn’t been an amplification of the homeless problem, and even if there had never ever been any trouble near (not at, but near) the occupied squares, and even if the parks had stayed spotless, the raid still would have happened. Those problems just made it easier to find an excuse.

    That’s assuming the guy who threw the firework wasn’t a ratfucker working for the cops or, like the guy who stormed the Air and Space, for some conservative paper or other in the first place. Using agitators to disrupt protests that make you uncomfortable is a time-honored tactic.

  52. 52
    Baron Jrod of Keeblershire says:

    @Chris: That can’t be right. Yevgraf told us that it was those damn anarchists, and he’s the fucking expert. It’s just silly to think that there’s any ratfucking going on, because we know that the police are our friends and would never do anything dishonorable.

    Because as Yevgraf has told us, any group with any bad element in it at all is tainted and must be discarded, and he’s not calling for the police to be disbanded, therefore they are all righteous. Not like them hippies. It’s just lajickul.

  53. 53
    Yevgraf says:

    @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:

    Look, the problem with the Portland protest is the problem with Portland itself: a massive homeless population. Those horrible “anarchists” you’re bitching about were perfectly peaceful. The people who’ve been on the street for years and stopped giving a fuck long ago were not.

    This could have been a wake-up call for the city, but screw that! We can’t let giving these people a home interfere with Christmas shopping!

    I swear, you deep left activists fetishize the homeless as much as deep right goobers fetishize “The Troops”.

    Do you even recognize the extremely numerous demographic within homelessness that enjoys preying on humanity, addiction, operating without constraints on rage and the supposed “freedom” from obligation that homelessness represents? And that they won’t happily and willingly abandon all that for job drudgery, sobriety and civilized living?

    Reach out to help the homeless that want and need it, but don’t convey the air of some fucking nobility to the whole group.

  54. 54
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:

    the Iranian government’s deeply unjust execution of people for the crime of being Christian

    again, that is a false statement. The Iranian government operates in the context of its sovereign rule of law, which is shariah law. Proselytization is a crime in Iran today. Their country,, their laws. Iran would have a parliamentery government today if not for CIA/MI5 interference in the Mossadegh coup and with America returning the tyrant Shah and propping him until 1979 when he was overthrown in the Islamic Revolution of Iran..

    do you still think i should be killed for talking about Islam?

    the American government would be justified in having you killed and tossed in a lime pit for talking about Islam.

    A lot of conservitards think the owwies should be killed too.
    ;)

  55. 55
    Baron Jrod of Keeblershire says:

    @Yevgraf: Right, it’s a problem.

    Seeing as I attributed the increase in crime around the squares to the large numbers of homeless there, I’m not sure why you think I’m assigning “nobility” to the group. I mean, I straight up said that the homeless people in the parks were a problem, and it wasn’t because their noble spirits were shining too brightly or whatever assumption you made rather than trying to understand what I actually wrote.

    What exactly did you think I meant by, “The people who’ve been on the street for years and stopped giving a fuck long ago were not [peaceful].”

    But you know what? Now that OP has been kicked out of their parks, those homeless people just went back to the streets of downtown. The crimes they might commit are now scattered throughout many blocks, rather than concentrated near the city hall. Breaking up the camps solves no problem, but does shove it out immediate view of the city gov’t, so that’s obviously better.

    (Just to be clear, I do think that most homeless people are decent at heart. But I’m sorry, once a person has spent a couple years being treated like worse than shit under a shoe, that person isn’t likely to be nice or well-behaved. I believe that for every homeless person who embraces their freedom to piss all over the society that pisses all over them, there are a dozen who are pushed to that attitude by years of fucking trauma.)

  56. 56
    Baron Jrod of Keeblershire says:

    @Samara Morgan: I never said you should be killed, you fucking liar. I said that by your logic, the US would be totally justified in doing so.

    By my logic, it’s a barbaric crime to execute people for their religion in each and every country on the globe. So no, I don’t want you dead. But props for evading the question in an almost creative fashion.

    Now, do you personally believe that executing Christians is a just thing for Iran to do? Don’t tell me what their law is, I fucking know that. Tell us your opinion.

    But you won’t, you moral coward.

  57. 57
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:

    the crime of being Christian

    its not the “crime of being christian” its the crime of violating the sovereign rule of law in the country they are citizens of.

    why do you and the english language media insist on misrepresenting the truth?

    head of a network of Christian house churches in Iran, is on death row for refusing to recant and convert back to Islam.

    christian “house churches” are illegal in Iran. its proselytizing.
    its more inflamatory to westerners to say this is a freedom of religion issue– but the truth is proselytizing is forbidden under shariah law.
    the other issue of legality under islamic law is that Nadarkhani is a Christian pastor, born to Muslim parents, ie apostasy.
    That is the very quranic definition of apostasy. If Nadarkhani was born to christian parents, then he could stay christian as long as he didnt proselytize, ie run an illegal network of christian house churches.
    Western media present the recent case against the Ba’hai the same way– that it is religious persecution when it is not..

    TEHRAN (Reuters) – Iran’s Intelligence Ministry has arrested a number of adherents of the Bahai religious minority for proselytising their faith in schools, student news agency ISNA reported on Saturday quoting a court official.

  58. 58
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:

    By my logic, it’s a barbaric crime to execute people for their religion

    i just explained.
    they are not being “executed for their religion”, they are being executed for violating the rule of law in the country they are citizens of.
    Jews and Christians could be citizens of the Caliphate, but they could not proselytize, hold illegal religious services, or build churches or synagogues without permission of the state.

  59. 59
    Baron Jrod of Keeblershire says:

    @Samara Morgan: So you’re saying that it’s just and righteous for this man to be executed?

    Seriously, stop evading the question. I’m not going to stop harassing you about it until you give us an answer.

    Of course, you’ve made your feelings quite clear. Mostly, I just want you to admit it to yourself: you’re happy to see Christians executed in Iran. You’re glad that it happened. That makes you a vile, evil person.

    If that’s not the case, now’s your chance to say so.

  60. 60
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:

    Tell us your opinion.

    i personally do not believe the state should have the power to execute any citizen.
    But just as the death penalty is legal many places in America, and just as congress made it legal to kill al-Awlaki, that is the rule of law in America, just as executing proselytizers and apostates is the rule of law in Iran.

    but in the sociobiological sense, and indeed, in the sufism interpretation… i think individual humans that seek martyrdom for their faith, usually find it, xian missionaries and muslim shaheeds alike.
    bi la kayfah

  61. 61
    Samara Morgan says:

    and if im a “moral coward” for refusing to judge other cultures by American rules, then you, like 99% of the juicitariat, are a moral scold.
    ya-haqq!

  62. 62
    Baron Jrod of Keeblershire says:

    Great, now WP is eating my posts.

    @Samara Morgan:

    i personally do not believe the state should have the power to execute any citizen.

    And you couldn’t say this in response to the dozens of times I asked you before because…

    xian missionaries and muslim shaheeds alike

    You spelled “insane missionaries” and “Muslim shitheads” wrong.

    then you, like 99% of the juicitariat, are a moral scold

    I’ll cop to that. May I always morally scold those who wish to murder people for their religion. And BTW, it’s not like “killing people for their identity is wrong” is an exclusively American or western idea.

  63. 63
    Baron Jrod of Keeblershire says:

    Lovely. I’m not even getting “your message is in moderation,” my posts just vanish. And if I try posting them again, they tell me it’s a duplicate. Fuck this shit.

    Edit: just one more thing.

    @Samara Morgan:

    they are not being “executed for their religion”, they are being executed for violating the rule of law in the country they are citizens of.

    This is a distinction without a difference. The man is being executed for being Christian, and no amount of parsing those laws can change that.

  64. 64
    Chris says:

    @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:

    This is a distinction without a difference. The man is being executed for being Christian, and no amount of parsing those laws can change that.

    To be specific, I direct you to what we were just told:

    head of a network of Christian house churches in Iran, is on death row for refusing to recant and convert back to Islam.

    Notice how it doesn’t say “this man, who refuses to recant and convert back to Islam, is on death row for running a network of Christian house churches” – it says “on death row for REFUSING TO RECANT AND CONVERT BACK TO ISLAM.” In other words, his crime isn’t proselytism, it’s apostasy, at least according to the quote Tokoloko provided.

    Not that it matters: it would be nauseating either way. But hey, it’s their country, so don’t you dare say anything against them. (Don’t let me catch you badmouthing Israeli politics either, smart mouth: THEIR country, THEIR laws).

  65. 65
    Peter says:

    Hey Matoko, if we passed a law making it illegal on pain of death to operate a Mosque in the US, how would that make you feel? You worthless piece of shit.

  66. 66
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris: @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:

    The man is being executed for being Christian

    …no hes being executed for being an apostate and a proselytizer.

    Don’t let me catch you badmouthing Israeli politics

    i object to the popular perception that Israel is a missionary democracy style country.
    They do not have freedom of religion– jewesses cannot marry outside their faith.
    They do not have freedom of speech–Israel bans democracyIsrael’s reputation as a vibrant democracy has been seriously tarnished by a new law intended to stifle outspoken critics of its occupation of the West Bank.
    Related

    Israel Bans Boycotts Against the State (July 12, 2011)
    The law, approved in a 47-to-38 vote by Parliament, effectively bans any public call for a boycott — economic, cultural or academic — against Israel or its West Bank settlements, making such action a punishable offense.
    __
    It would enable Israeli citizens to bring civil suits against people and organizations instigating such boycotts, and subject violators to monetary penalties. Companies and organizations supporting a boycott could be barred from bidding on government contracts. Nonprofit groups could lose tax benefits.

    but then again….praps the US is not a freedom of speech democracy anymore either.

  67. 67
    roc says:

    Funny how it took NYC this long to come up with “health and fire risks”. And this (not coincidentally, I’m sure) only after other cities had already hit on this rationale for forcing confrontation.

    If they actually cared about sanitation, I *guarantee* they could get the occupiers to consent to rotating out of a section of park at a time so that it can be cleaned. Hell, they could probably convince the occupation to create a waste-management group outright to do whatever cleaning they want done.

  68. 68
    Samara Morgan says:

    darn, moderation.
    is the bad word pros3lytizer or zzzisraeli?

  69. 69
    Samara Morgan says:

    breaking it up.

    The man is being executed for being Christian

    …no hes being executed for being an apostate and a proselytizer.

  70. 70
    Peter says:

    Being an apostate in this case means being Christian goddamit you can’t possibly be this thick

  71. 71
    Samara Morgan says:

    @chris

    Don’t let me catch you badmouthing Israeli politics

    i object to the popular perception that Israel is a missionary democracy style country.
    They do not have freedom of religion—israeli jewesses cannot marry outside their faith.
    They do not have freedom of speech—Israel bans free speech-democracy

    Israel’s reputation as a vibrant democracy has been seriously tarnished by a new law intended to stifle outspoken critics of its occupation of the West Bank.
    __
    Israel Bans Boycotts Against the State (July 12, 2011)
    The law, approved in a 47-to-38 vote by Parliament, effectively bans any public call for a boycott — economic, cultural or academic — against Israel or its West Bank settlements, making such action a punishable offense.
    __
    It would enable Israeli citizens to bring civil suits against people and organizations instigating such boycotts, and subject violators to monetary penalties. Companies and organizations supporting a boycott could be barred from bidding on government contracts. Nonprofit groups could lose tax benefits.

    but then again….praps the US is not a freedom of speech democracy anymore either.

  72. 72
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Peter: he could be a Ba’hai or an Ismaili.
    the law is the law.

  73. 73
    Chris says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    i object to the popular perception that Israel is a missionary democracy style country.
    They do not have freedom of religion—israel jewesses cannot marry outside their faith.
    They do not have freedom of speech—Israel bans free speech-democracy

    “Missionary democracy” is still as meaningless a term as when you first made it up, but otherwise, oh, absolutely. Freedom of religion and freedom of speech are iffy at best, and as for things like civil rights, don’t get me started. And it’s a crying fucking shame, which I decry whenever the subject comes up, including right now.

    But hey. Their country, their laws, and it’s not my place to object to any of them, and I should be severely chastised if I do, because Argumentum Ad BigWhiteChristianBwanuum. Carry on.

  74. 74
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Peter: would you give a flying fuck about him if he wasnt a christian?
    doubt it.

  75. 75
    Peter says:

    @Samara Morgan: But in this case it means Christain. And what the fuck has to be wrong with you for you to ra-ra cheer on apostasy laws in the first place? Christ, I’m bookmarking this thread and linking it every time you start going on about how you’re the Great Liberal.

  76. 76
    Peter says:

    @Samara Morgan: Yes, I would, because unlike you I am not a batshit moron unable to hold a lick of sympathy for anybody not possessed of my own religious (but not cultural because you are in reality a privileged western moron) views.

  77. 77
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris: so how do you feel about the “Jewish State”?
    you do realize that means the israelis will expell anyone who isnt jewish and steal their land.
    1.5 million humans. Does that qualifiy as ethic cleansing?

    and i have defined missionary democracy many times. its westernstyle democracy with freedom of speech and freedom of religion mandated.
    The Israelis can do what they like. Their country, their laws.
    But lets not pretend its a democracy as Americans understand democracy.
    And lets not pretend they are the sole recipient of consequences to their actions.

  78. 78
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Peter: dont liberals believe in the sovereignty of other nations?
    i do.
    but im also a sociobiologist and an evo theory of culture fan.
    it simply doesnt do any good to scold islamic countries while meddling and proselytizing, propping dictators and backing up unjust Israel.
    its just gets their back up.

    wanna help christians in islamic countries?
    tell them not to proselytize.
    its against the law.

  79. 79
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Peter:

    making it illegal on pain of death to operate a Mosque in the US

    you cant.
    the US rule of law mandates freedom of religion.

    why do you care if islamic countries reject xianity?
    their culture, their laws, their rules.

  80. 80
    Peter says:

    Jesus fuck you are disgusting.

  81. 81
    Chris says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    so how do you feel about the “Jewish State”?

    Not going to lie, I’m not the biggest fan. If it had been up to me in 1947, I would not have supported its creation.

    you do realize that means the israelis will expell anyone who isnt jewish and steal their land.
    1.5 million humans. Does that qualifiy as ethic cleansing?

    I think it does, yes. But with the U.S. on the Security Council and nukes in the Israeli arsenal, I don’t expect any action to be taken against them in the foreseeable future. More’s the pity.

    and i have defined missionary democracy many times. its westernstyle democracy with freedom of speech and freedom of religion mandated.

    Then call it Western style democracy or liberal democracy like everyone else already. These words and terms are there for a reason, there’s no reason to make up new ones.

    The Israelis can do what they like. Their country, their laws.

    Then why do you never get outraged and offended when people like me starts bitching about the injustices in said laws? When the injustices are committed by an Islamic country, you jump up and scream “THEIR COUNTRY THEIR RULES OMG YOU’RE SUCH A JAFI” to anyone who voices their disapproval, why no similar outrage on Israel-related threads?

    But lets not pretend its a democracy as Americans understand democracy.
    And lets not pretend they are the sole recipient of consequences to their actions.

    I’m not pretending. I agree with you completely. No one on this thread suggested that they were until you brought it up.

  82. 82
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris: as far as i know, we have not invaded and occupied any jewish countries in the recent past.

    the injustices

    judging. you are moral scold like the rest of the juicitariat.

  83. 83
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris:

    Then call it Western style democracy or liberal democracy like everyone else already.

    I could call it judeo-xian democracy as opposed to islamic democracy…but people objected to that as well.
    it is just more accurate.

    the opposite of liberal democracy is illiberal democracy. i do not think islamic democracy is illiberal– it represents the consent of the governed, where the governed are muslims.

    Do all western style democracies mandate freedom of speech?
    i thot the brits had hate speech laws.
    :)

  84. 84
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Peter: why do you care if islamic countries reject christianity?
    i think this is disgusting.

  85. 85
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Peter: This is disgusting.
    The Hounds of Jesus.

    hunt them down.

  86. 86
    Samara Morgan says:

    “lets go down to the hospital to see some children that are healing.”

  87. 87
    Chris says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    judging. you are moral scold like the rest of the juicitariat.

    And what do you think you’re doing when you whine about Israelis stealing land or Americans sharing their faith?

  88. 88
    Chris says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    I could call it judeo-xian democracy as opposed to islamic democracy…but people objected to that as well.

    Yeah, because it’s not that either. Most of the countries in the West have no official religions and have laws guaranteeing a separation of church and state, precisely to guarantee that the “democracy” will not be “Judeo-Christian.” Again, try “Western style democracy.” Everyone knows what you mean. As opposed to “missionary,” which doesn’t mean shit.

    as far as i know, we have not invaded and occupied any jewish countries in the recent past.

    We’re not invading or occupying Iran either, and whether or not we had would have nothing to do with whether or not it’s okay to kill someone for converting to another religion.

    It’s possible to object to Western imperialism and still also object to some practices in the cultures it oppresses. An injustice is an injustice no matter who perpetrates it, and if I’m not going to give my own country a break when it comes to its own sins, I’m sure as hell not going to do it for someone else’s.

  89. 89
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris: you didnt answer my question.

    Do all western style democracies mandate freedom of speech?

    @Chris:

    And what do you think you’re doing when you whine about Israelis stealing land or Americans sharing their faith?

    im just telling the truth.

    I’m sure as hell not going to do it for someone else’s.

    so go work in your own fucking garden Candide.
    get back to me when you’re finished there.

    Americans (with guns) sharing their faith…

  90. 90
    Chris says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    you didnt answer my question.

    I’ve answered your question a MILLION TIMES in previous threads with a “no,” and pointed to anti-Holocaust-denial, anti-Nazi laws in many European countries. Try to keep up.

    so go work in your own fucking garden Candide.
    get back to me when you’re finished there.

    Oh, like you do with Israel? Yeah, I’ll be following your footsteps rigorously.

  91. 91
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris: and that is why westernstyle doesnt work as a descriptor. :)

    again, America is propping Israel.
    we invaded and occupied Iraq and A-stan and tried to terraform their culture into something more more hospitable to Israel.
    it cant be done.
    not only am i sufi, im scient.
    i do admire the elegance and power of Islam….its an uninvadable CSS.

    the killer app of xianity– proselytization– doesnt work in islamic democracy.
    if you genuinely care about christians in islamic countires– tell them not to proselytize.
    its against the law.
    ;)

  92. 92
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris: my garden is America.
    whats yours?

  93. 93
    Chris says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    again, America is propping Israel.

    And this changes the fact that it’s a foreign country with its own laws HOW? America’s your garden. Not Israel. Stop complaining.

    we invaded and occupied Iraq and A-stan and tried to terraform their culture into something more more hospitable to Israel.

    No, we really didn’t. That’s what you continually refuse to understand with your “missionary democracy” shit. No one in Washington gives a flying fuck if Afghanistan or Iraq remain Muslim, or really if they become Western-style democracies. It was about making it look like George Bush was DOING SOMETHING after 9/11 by beating up some hajjis – that and making a few bucks for people like Halliburton.

    But things like spreading democracy never, EVER mattered a DAMN in George Bush’s calculations. Attacks on Christians have actually increased since the fall of Saddam – and the U.S. has done absolutely nothing about it. They’ve done nothing to protect the rights of proselytizers or apostates or any of the rest of them either. Know why? Because they don’t care. They. Don’t. Fucking. Care. As long as the spice flows, they don’t give a damn which culture harvests it.

    Good Lord, our closest ally in the Muslim world is Saudi Arabia, where apostates and proselytizers have even less rights than in Iraq or Iran. We’ve never put any significant pressure on them to change that, and we never will. Know why? Because again, “spreading missionary democracy” doesn’t matter a damn to the people in power.

    @Samara Morgan:

    if you genuinely care about christians in islamic countires—tell them not to proselytize.
    its against the law.

    Right, just like we should’ve told political dissenters in Eastern Europe to stop dissenting and march in a straight line, because free thought was against the law. Just like we should’ve told civil rights activists in South Africa to stop asking for equal rights (and stop being so damn BLACK, it’s just embarrassing), cause equal rights were against the law. And hell, someone should’ve told those uppity Bostonians not to dump tea in the harbor – everyone follow the law! Don’t worry, be happy!

    Christ, word up to Peter at 79. You’re the most repugnant person on this entire blog, and that’s quite a feat considering your competition.

  94. 94
    cckids says:

    @Chris: Oy. Jesus, make it stop.

    Chris, you know the aphorism; Don’t argue with an idiot-they’ll drag you down to their level & beat you with experience. Same goes here.

  95. 95
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris:

    And this changes the fact that it’s a foreign country with its own laws HOW?

    because we are joined at the hip with Islrael. Judeo-christian nation dig? American exceptionalism is just the extention of the chosen people bulshytt.

    No, we really didn’t.

    so what was the mission then?

    We’ve never put any significant pressure on them to change that

    because we cant. we couldnt even force them to recognize Malikis government or open an embassy in Baghdad. we dont have any power in our Sudi alliance..

    You’re the most repugnant person on this entire blog.
    so what?

    like im more repugnant than Rev. “now we will go down to the hospital and comfort some children who are healing”.
    we hunt people for jesus. hunt ’em down!

    sic semper missionaries

  96. 96
    Samara Morgan says:

    i guess Baron Jrod is right.
    i dont have any sympathy for Proselytizers.

  97. 97
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris:

    It was about making it look like George Bush was DOING SOMETHING

    bushytt.
    the horses mouth.

    There was no central coordination. As Mr. Bush’s national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, once complained, “When everyone’s responsible, no one is responsible.” The failures fed the Taliban’s argument that outsiders should be ejected. “The mistaken mission creep in Afghanistan during the Bush years was moving from counterterrorism after 9/11 — to destroy Al Qaeda — to nation building and the objective of implanting Western-style democracy,” said Robert Blackwill, who coordinated the policy for Mr. Bush at the National Security Council.

    it was policy, cudlips.
    Missionary democracy promotion was FUCKIN’ POLICY.

  98. 98
    Chris says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    because we are joined at the hip with Islrael. Judeo-christian nation dig? American exceptionalism is just the extention of the chosen people bulshytt.

    No, I don’t dig. Secular nation, with separation of church and state written right into the Constitution from its very inception. Sorry, we’re not a Judeo-Christian nation, despite what you and the right wing would like to believe.

    So it’s okay to go after foreign nations if we’re “joined at the hip” with them? Okay, that’s fair. So we can’t criticize Iran, but at least we get to criticize Saudi Arabia when it condemns schoolgirls to die in a burning building. And a whole host of other Islamic countries. I look forward to your criticism of these things also.

    like im more repugnant than Rev. “now we will go down to the hospital and comfort some children who are healing”.

    Is Reverend Now We Will Go Down To The Hospital And Comfort Some Children Who Are Healing on this blog?

    it was policy, cudlips.

    Ahhh, there it is. I was wondering when that word would make an appearance.

    The mistaken mission creep in Afghanistan during the Bush years was moving from counterterrorism after 9/11 — to destroy Al Qaeda — to nation building and the objective of implanting Western-style democracy

    Ah, but as we’ve just established, Western style democracy is NOT missionary democracy and it does NOT demand freedom of speech! So we’re all good, missionary democracy was not involved at all :)

  99. 99
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris:

    Western style democracy is NOT missionary democracy

    sillie man.
    westernstyle democracy==judeoxian democracy==missionary democracy.
    all same same.
    you are just throwing radar chaff.
    to return to the point i was arguing….Nadaukhari is being executed for violating the rule of law of the nation he is a citizen of. Not because he is a christian.
    He could have been a Ba’hai or an Ismaeli. And there is a strong tradition of leniancy in cases of apostasy.
    If Nadaukhari had not also been running an illegal network of “christian house churches” the authorities would likely have left him alone.
    The western press consistantly misrepresents these cases, and im not sure why.

    christians believe their faith mandates them to proselytize. muslims believe their faith mandates them to resist proselytization.
    articles of faith are not amenable to reason.

    And im plenty critical of Israel.

  100. 100
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris:

    we’re not a Judeo-Christian nation

    oh but we are. that is how the rest of the world perceives us.
    I didnt understand the term (which is used by movement conservatives all the time, you are right) until i read Galtung.

    ….the legitimation pattern includes exceptionalism, of the USA as a special, indispensable nation with the mission of promoting Good and preventing Evil all over, following God’s Calling as Chosen People, stepping into jewish theological shoes….. Johan Galtung, The Fall of the US Empire—And Then What?

  101. 101
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris: you can hardly say the US is a secular nation when one of the two major parties has medieval ensoulment as part of its party platform, passes laws based on christian doctrine, and besides….DOMA.
    ;)

  102. 102
    Chris says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    westernstyle democracy==judeoxian democracy==missionary democracy.

    Ah, but it isn’t. Because missionary democracy means freedom of speech. And Western style democracy does not. It’s true, I tell you, I read it on a blog once :)

    you are just throwing radar chaff.

    Well, thank God you’re above all that.

    to return to the point i was arguing….Nadaukhari is being executed for violating the rule of law of the nation he is a citizen of. Not because he is a christian.

    People were sent to the gulags because they violated the laws of the nations they were in – not okay to question communism. People were sent to the concentration camps because they violated the laws of the nation they lived in – it’s not okay to be Jewish. Etc, etc, etc. Thank God yours is always good for you, eh? Unless “you” happen to be one of the people the law fucks over.

    If Nadaukhari had not also been running an illegal network of “christian house churches” the authorities would likely have left him alone.

    Sorry. Despite your fetish for the word “proselytism,” your own quote clearly indicates that he’s being killed for apostasy, not running a network of Christian house churches. The last part of that sentence was your own speculation with nothing to support it.

    christians believe their faith mandates them to proselytize. muslims believe their faith mandates them to resist proselytization.

    Oddly enough, Christians also believe their faith mandates them to resist proselytization. And Muslims also believe their faith mandates them to proselytize. So, what’s your point?

    And im plenty critical of Israel.

    We already know that. I repeat: I look forward to reading your criticism of the human rights record of our other Islamic allies. Women’s rights in Saudi Arabia, for one.

  103. 103
    Chris says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    you can hardly say the US is a secular nation when one of the two major parties has medieval ensoulment as part of its party platform

    One of the major U.S. parties wants to change how America is.

    They haven’t succeeded. And until they do, it’ll still be a secular nation. “As the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion,” etc.

  104. 104
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris:

    And Muslims also believe their faith mandates them to proselytize.

    no they dont. Muslims cant proselytize christians or jews for example. We all believe in the same Allah.
    And Sufis, like me, are forbidden to proselytize. We believe all humans are what they have the potential to be, and all Paths are the One Path. If the Real intended you to be something else, it would appear in your path.

    man cannot acquire what he cannot use

    i was not aware that christians are commanded to resist proselytization. i was raised catholic.

    its relly simple.
    Muslims dont actually care if christians want to believe in the Jesus godhead…they are People of the Book after all…
    But we do care, quite vehemently as it turns out, that christians want to make us believe it too.

    and im pretty tired of people here telling i dont know my own religion.
    proselytizing the poor and ignorant is forbidden by the Generous Quran, and thus by shariah law which is quranic exegesis.

  105. 105
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris: As the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion,” etc.
    but the US was founded by anglosaxon protestants.
    And DOMA is law. that is religious doctrine made into law.

  106. 106
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris: and i said he is being killed for apostasy, but he is not getting leniency because he is a proselytizer.
    and he is not being killed for being a christian, because he could be any flavor of apostate/proselytizer.

  107. 107
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris: i have been critical of the Sauds on my islam blog. its irrelevant to the conversation here.

    why is this so difficult?
    Most muslims hate proselytizers and missionaries.
    The Quran forbids proselytizing the poor and ignorant.
    Proselytizing is illegal in countries where shariah law is the rule of law. Like Iran and KSA.

  108. 108
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris:

    People were sent to the gulags…blah blah strawmen blah

    so?
    im not saying it was a just sentence. Im saying he is not being killed because he is a christian like Jrod maintains. he is an apostate and a proselytizer, both of which are against Irans rule of law, shariah law.

  109. 109
    Anne Laurie says:

    As a person of faith, I am compelled to state for the record that whatever religion ‘Samara’ attempted to coopt for her narcissistic trustafarian phantasies, she’d be a disgrace to it. Calling herself a “Muslim” is just the most attention-getting, parent-annoying variant her mayfly little brain has lit upon, but I’m sure Pam Gellar is a big fan.

  110. 110
    Peter says:

    Matoko makes me feel dirty about enjoying the Sufi poetry we’ve been reading in my South Asian Lit class.

  111. 111
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Anne Laurie: JAFI.
    i already heard from you on “shariah ridden brown babies” and “harem bait.”
    Why does it bug you all so much that muslims hate missionaries and proselytizers, and shariah forbids proselytizing?

    i think that gripes you more than apostasy or stoning….because it means al-Islam is an uninvadable strategy.

    Wouldnt it be be funnie if Romney got elected president and couldn’t go to KSA to hold hands with Prince Bandar like Bush did?
    The Kingdom will not admit missionaries, and Romney was a mormon missionary in france while his peers were gettin’ shot up in Nam.

  112. 112
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Anne Laurie: and my parents are none of your bidness you nosy old bitch.
    fuck off.

  113. 113
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Anne Laurie:

    but I’m sure Pam Gellar is a big fan.

    she hates my guts. i wrote about her at loonwatch. i think i’ll write about you there too.
    JAFI.

  114. 114
    Chris says:

    Back at last –

    @Samara Morgan:

    no they dont. Muslims cant proselytize christians or jews for example. We all believe in the same Allah.

    Really, now?

    You might want to tell these people that. Because offhand, I suspect that a lot of the people they’re proselytizing to are Jews or Christians, given religious demographics on this continent. Not that I resent it. They can proselytize me all they want: unlike you, I’m not offended by other people inviting me to what they think is the way to salvation. But they don’t appear to be following The Rules Of Islam As Explained By Toko Loko.

    But we do care, quite vehemently as it turns out, that christians want to make us believe it too.

    Oh, grow up, you poor, oppressed, delicate little flower. No one’s *making* you believe anything. That Iranian didn’t walk around to all his neighbor’s houses, put a gun to their heads and go “Jesus Christ or death.” If his neighbors were interested in his religion, it was out of their own choice.

    Most muslims hate proselytizers and missionaries.

    Most PEOPLE hate proselytizers and missionaries. Ask anyone who’s ever had to receive a Jehovah’s Witness. It doesn’t mean we send them to a firing squad for offending our delicate little sensibilities.

    im not saying it was a just sentence. Im saying he is not being killed because he is a christian like Jrod maintains. he is an apostate and a proselytizer, both of which are against Irans rule of law, shariah law.

    Oh, sweet fucking Jesus. “Killed because he’s an apostate” means “killed because he converted to Christianity.” So yes, he was killed for being a Christian. (Just like other people are killed for being Bahai or whatever religion they convert to).

    “You’re not saying it was a just sentence?” Great. Two things, then: 1) was it a just sentence, in your considered opinion, and 2) why the fuck do you start moralizing every single time someone on this blog points out the blatantly obvious, e.g. “it’s not a just sentence?”

  115. 115
    Chris says:

    but the US was founded by anglosaxon protestants.

    Yes. And those Anglo-Saxon Protestants carefully ensured the separation of religion and state in the government they created. Their religion, or anyone else’s.

    And DOMA is law. that is religious doctrine made into law.

    Not really, it’s just homophobia made into law. Which has never required religion to thrive: you should see what the old communist regimes used to do to gay people.

    @Anne Laurie:

    As a person of faith, I am compelled to state for the record that whatever religion ‘Samara’ attempted to coopt for her narcissistic trustafarian phantasies, she’d be a disgrace to it.

    I empathize. Not a very religious person anymore, but I understand the embarrassment people feel at having such bloody assholes speak in the name of a whole religion.

  116. 116
    Samara Morgan says:

    why dont you give me a timeout or disappear my posts like usual?
    you dont want your crush Weigel to see what you said about shariah ridden brown babies, do you?
    hag.

  117. 117
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    @Chris – you are on a loser’s errand here, just fyi, because the little dead girl will haunt the thread for days until she gets the last word.

  118. 118
    Chris says:

    i think that gripes you more than apostasy or stoning….because it means al-Islam is an uninvadable strategy.

    Yes, Toko. Deep down inside, we really, really, REALLY care about invading Islam. You can tell from the way every time the subject of wars waged by our government against Muslim nations (wars you say are all about converting them), we just go WILD with enthusiasm and support.

  119. 119
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris: im embarrassed by my fellow americans, so can we be even?
    again, my relationship with my parents is none of that bitter islamophobic old hags bidness.
    btw, what do my parents have to with what the Quran says?

    so prop 8 in Cali. Where the mormon and catholic churches poured 20 million into adverts.
    is that religious enuff for you?

  120. 120
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris: no, you care about being rejected, and humiliated.
    you care about LOSING.

    which is what happened in Iraq and A-stan.

  121. 121
    Chris says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    Sure. We can be even, I suppose. Whatever that means.

    so prop 8 in Cali. Where the mormon and catholic churches poured 20 million into adverts.

    The fact that some churches get to support or encourage certain legislation doesn’t mean that it’s a Christian country, Toko. Muslim institutions, mosques and communities involve themselves in politics too. Sometimes, propositions pass that are supported by Muslim institutions. Does that make us a Muslim country too?

  122. 122
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris:

    …there is the cult of the Strong State with the Strong Leader, President, Commander-in-chief, with a will to power on top. …To win implies implies God’s backing for the believers, and being the world’s fittest—as proven by survival—for the secularists. To lose means having neither God’s or the World’s backing. —Galtung, The Fall of the US Empire…. page 130.

    We LOST in Iraq. We got kicked out.
    Sick Granpa and the repugs are whining about Obama withdrawing the troops from Iraq– but he had no choice.
    In the battle for hearts and minds we got our asses handed to us.
    and you dont wanna know why, because its embarrassing that our leadership was so stupid.

  123. 123
    Chris says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    no, you care about being rejected, and humiliated.
    you care about LOSING. which is what happened in Iraq and A-stan.

    Again, what do you base this amateur psychology on? Do you see anyone here griping over the fact that we lost Vietnam? Plenty of Americans do care about losing whatever the context, and I deplore it, but on this blog? Not seeing very much of that.

    Seriously, if we’re all in tears over the fact of losing, then why do most of us support immediate withdrawal whenever the question comes up? You’re not making any sense at all.

  124. 124
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris: lawl, people on this blog denied that America lost in Viet Nam.
    and a lot of people on this blog insisted we were gunna leave 10k troops in Iraq.

    if we’re all in tears over the fact of losing

    oh you arent. but you are in denial over the mechanism by which we lost.
    that is why you try to deny that democracy promotion is why we stayed there for 10 years….because the Iraqis and Afghanis rejected our version of democracy.
    and as horrible as you think it is, muslims like Islam. shariah is the will of the people.

  125. 125
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Chris: the electorate is 70% christian. that is what makes America a christian nation.

  126. 126
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    people on this blog denied that America lost in Viet Nam.

    put up or shut up, toko

  127. 127
    Samara Morgan says:

    @arguingwithsignposts: i actually think that was you…..but i dont care enough to deploy my search fu.

  128. 128
    Chris says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    oh you arent. but you are in denial over the mechanism by which we lost.

    Okay. Whatever. Must be nice to know what’s going on in everyone’s head no matter how many times they may tell you otherwise.

    the electorate is 70% christian. that is what makes America a christian country.

    No, it makes it a country with a Christian majority. A “Christian country” would be something like the U.K. or Brazil, which actually have official religions.

  129. 129
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    @Samara Morgan: Well, you’re more of an idiot than i gave you credit for then. wasn’t me. post some links or stop posting bullshit claims.

  130. 130
    Samara Morgan says:

    ive had enuff, thnx.
    i got Seeing Further in paperback and Umberto Eco’s new book.
    im going to have a bubble bath and read Stephensons chapter on Newton and computational metaphysics.
    and a glass of Gruet i think….

    fiamanullah juicers.
    you are going to need it.

  131. 131
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    @Samara Morgan: so you quit when ppl call you on your shit. good enuf. may we stalk your comments with your FAIL?

  132. 132
    Chris says:

    you are on a loser’s errand here, just fyi, because the little dead girl will haunt the thread for days until she gets the last word.

    Hate to be that guy, AWS, but it looks like you were wrong.

    (Trust me, I’m as surprised about that as you are).

  133. 133
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    @Chris: well, this time we win. i take small victories.

    ETA: this is the first time i’ve seen the Little Dead Girl give up at the end of a dead thread. Wonders will never cease.

  134. 134
    Svensker says:

    @Chris:

    Where would you like your windmill delivered?

  135. 135
    Chris says:

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    Yeah, me too. Ain’t that something! Cave trolls just aren’t what they used to be.

    @Svensker:

    Alright, alright, I get the point :) Yeah, not sure why I was in such a troll-engaging mood today, but I was. What can you do.

  136. 136
    Samara Morgan says:

    lol

    counting chickens again?

    i quite like this.
    In the battle for hearts and minds Americans got their asses handed to them.

    again.
    their country, their laws and shariah law means death to the crusaders proselytizers.
    rejection of all you hold dear including football child rapist culture.
    bonne nuit et dormez vous bien….no nightmares of hundreds of thousands of muslim dead, Big White Christian American Bwana.

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