This was the scene at Zucotti Park this morning. Here’s an open thread to discuss OWS or anything else going on.
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by $8 blue check mistermix| 80 Comments
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Southern Beale
Megan McArdle is shockingly, horribly wrong.
Joel
Up early this morning. A friend of mine and her boyfriend were killed when their car was rear-ended by a speeding Explorer on a city throughway. The details are still sketchy, but the driver of the Explorer must have been traveling fast, because my friend’s car exploded when it was hit. Needless to mention, the guy had two kids in his car (apparently safe). I’m pretty angry, so sleeping is probably out of the question.
Southern Beale
Oh, Joel. What horrible news to start your day. I’m so sorry.
THE
Something totally different.
I liked Alexander Chen’s visualization of the Prelude from J.S.Bach’s Cello Suite No.1.
It takes a minute or so to really get going, so be patient.
The notes are represented by strings of different lengths.
Mark B.
Wow, Joel, that’s horrible. I don’t know what to say, but my sympathies are with you.
I’m still trying to figure out how forcibly evicting the OWS protestors squares with the Constitutional right to peaceably assemble and seek redress. I don’t see how the police can get away with it, and the fact that it’s being done nationwide at about the same time makes it seem coordinated.
THE
Agreed Joel, just read your comment, awful news.
Xenos
What became of the Bonus Army? Did they reorganize in some fashion once they were dispersed, or did they just disappear?
ETA: Sorry to be so lazy. Per wikipedia they got much of what they wanted from the new Roosevelt administration, and their mistreatment helped drive the Hoover Administration out of power.
SiubhanDuinne
@Southern Beale:
Happily, your takedown of her was beautifully, honestly right. Nice job, SB.
SiubhanDuinne
@Joel:
Joel, how awful. I’m so sorry. No words.
debit
@Joel: I am so sorry. How horrible.
SiubhanDuinne
@THE:
That is extremely cool! I have a couple of iPad apps with which I might (given sufficient patience) be able to do something similar, but probably nothing close to that. Thanks for the share.
Waynski
Just guessing here but I think the folks that live and work in the neighborhood that aren’t Wall Street (a much higher number than many people realize) as well as the Wall Street employees that don’t make gazillions (many, many more than people realize as well) must have reached a tipping point. I think they’ve gone from supportive, to supportive but annoyed, to enough already. Sad but probably true. The lack of a focused message and demands may be social-media-cool and all, but to people who have to put up with the drumming, demonstrations, parades of TV crews, and dodging human shit on the sidewalk on your way to work, it gets old fast. And they definitely ask, “What’s the point of all this?”. Credit OWS with changing the political/media narrative, but eventually the mayor was going to have enough support from residents and workers to tell them that they don’t have to go home, but they can’t sleep here. Seems that day was today. I hope they keep up the movement and the protests, but the camping out thing was in the end unsustainable.
THE
@SiubhanDuinne:
When it comes to Baroque cool, nothing on earth can beat this Japanese Cellphone ad.
The piece of music is Jesu Joy of Man’s Desiring by J.S.Bach.
Southern Beale
Democracy Now has on the scene footage. MSM has Herman Cain BS. This is why I don’t watch the mainstream news media anymore.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
Who the fuck is this Megan and why do people here care so much about what she says?
Waynski
@Joel: That’s awful. So sorry.
Mark S.
@Joel:
I am so sorry.
cathyx
What’s to prevent the protesters returning? And I know that the police are there in force right now, but they won’t be there in force forever.
handsmile
@Joel:
My deep sympathies for your heart-breaking loss. Do take care of yourself in the coming days.
JPL
@Joel: What sad news. My sympathies to you and your friends children. Please take care of yourself.
handsmile
@Southern Beale: (#14)
Hat-tip for spreading the news about the value and mission of “Democracy Now”. And that was quite a righteous defenestration of the execrable McArdle.
JPL
@Raven (formerly stuckinred): I don’t read Megan but I plead guilty to reading David Brooks last Friday. His cupcake analogy was worthy of a purple prose award.
Paul in KY
@Joel: Man, I’m so sorry. Sending some good thoughts to help you get through this.
Elizabelle
@Joel:
Terrible news. Thinking of you.
Also thinking of those kids in the Explorer. They saw a tragedy, and their dad caused it.
On the thread topic: So the OWS protesters maybe shower and dine up, check in to their “real lives” and protest anew somewhere else? Or in some other fashion? (Maybe 3-week at a time protest-ins?)
Because OWS message is not going away.
Paul in KY
@Raven (formerly stuckinred): She’s some stupid, Repub wankette that has a blogging gig at Atlantic.
Mark B.
McQueary has said “… the truth is not out there fully… I didn’t just turn and run… I made sure it stopped…”. Which is kind of weird. Originally I was willing to give McQueary the benefit of the doubt, figuring he just froze up and panicked under the bizarre unexpected situation involving monstrous behavior involving his mentor from childhood. Still, given his faults, he’s going to be an important witness, and his willingness to tell the truth, even though it comes too late to help some of the victims, puts him above the other players in this drama.
If he were aware enough of what was going on to stop it, why the hell didn’t he call the police immediately? But I agree with the first part of his statement. The truth isn’t out there yet, and I’m willing to wait until the trial to see how this develops. Sandusky is claiming innocence, but that’s incredibly hard to believe.
Sandusky Claims innocence in NBC interview (ESPN)
TheMightyTrowel
I agree with the Guardian:
JGabriel
@Raven (formerly stuckinred):
Megan McArdle, formerly known as Jane Galt. It’s not so much that people care what she says as that she makes such a mockworthy subject via: her obsequious Randianism and concomitant disregard for human ethics; her penchant for dismissing opposing views and arguments with lies; her talent for getting everything wrong; and her high-profile perch at The Atlantic, which provides dangerously influential visibility and distribution far beyond her talents.
Finally, as an approximately 6′ tall, moderately attractive woman — who likes guns — libertarian, objectivist, and conservative fan-bois glommed on to her like a million sperm all trying to fertilize the same egg, which provides its own kind of mockworthy spectacle.
.
JPL
@Mark B.: Sandusky has to use the showers at 9:30 pm on a Friday night before spring break because …………..? Sandusky might give interviews but he won’t testify in front of a jury. I’m still appalled that he was released on a signature bond.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Joel: I’m so sorry Joel. I wish I had words of comfort, but there aren’t any for this.
Scott
@Joel: Holy crap, how horrible. Many, many sympathies… :(
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Raven (formerly stuckinred): Thanks for the chuckle, and I hope you had a dandy birthday last week.
Robert
Two things to remember about this:
1) NYPD are underpaid, overworked, and lose their low-paying jobs if they decide to disobey an order like get the protesters out of the park. They are the 99 percent.
2) Zucotti Park is a private park with public access. We’ve known since day one that as soon as the owner of the property said “enough,” the protesters would be removed. That happened yesterday. That’s the entirety of the story.
David in nY
@Waynski:
But you don’t and you don’t know any, right? So speculate away. Those of us who know people working there think otherwise.
David in NY
@Robert: Except as to “2)” you totally misunderstand the legal status of the park.
Mark B.
@JPL: My personal opinion is that he’s guilty as hell, and should be kept locked in a cage for the rest of his life. I can’t believe that a predator like him was allowed free on bail. But I also believe he has the right to a vigorous legal defense. Hopefully, it won’t take a lot of years to get justice in that case. There have already been too many instances where he’s been caught and allowed to skate in the past.
JGabriel
@Waynski:
The thing is, that unsustainability is why there wasn’t much point in breaking it up now.
The city could have waited a few more weeks for a forecast of a blizzard, or dangerously cold weather, before moving on the activists. They could have used that as a (legitimate) excuse to co-ordinate an organized clearing out of the park, possibly even with the protesters’ support.
.
Steve
I find it ironic that the park has been cleared so the public can use it, but no one is allowed in.
I’ve been by OWS every day since the whole thing started, and as far as icould see they weren’t hurting anything. The only real annoyance was the drumming during school hours, which they should have been more considerate about, but eventually they stopped.
But to put this in context: one side of OWS is Broadway. The other side butts up against the most famous construction site in the world, otherwise known as Ground Zero. This is not some sleepy residential neighborhood. And I’m pretty sure the local businesses didn’t hate the increased foot traffic.
Bnad
I was happy to hear about the takedown and I’m a supporter of OWS. They were starting to be portrayed on the right as lazy bums who didn’t want to work. I really wanted to see them transform into a political movement ASAP to take advantage of the broadness of their support.
anthony
@Robert Was putting a reporter in a headlock part of the orders?
JGabriel
@Robert:
Moderate to well-paid jobs. The NYPD is unionized — which also makes it difficult for the city to fire them on a whim. And to the extent they’re overworked, it’s mostly by choice, as the union ensures they won’t get shafted for overtime.
.
scav
There are days when you just gotta love the lawyers.
Jonathan Caplan QC, for Daily Mail owner Associated Newspapers while at the Leveson inquiry. (from)
As best I can tell, that’s a plea for not putting barn doors on in the first place.
(Ignore the horses running about the yard. They’ve got it out of their systems, they promise.)
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@Bnad:
So….blindsiding them in the night, pepperspraying them and hauling them off like they were deranged psychos, then trashing everything in the site (including the 5000 book library they had on hand) is a good thing?
Look, I hope this inspires rather than depresses further action by the Occupy folks, but lets face it, this is heavy handed hyper-coordinated bullshit.
handsmile
@cathyx: (#18)
The tyrant Bloomberg has decreed that protesters can return to Zuccotti Park but without “sleeping bags, tents or outdoor gear.” For now.
The tactically-savvy “Occupy Wall Street’ protesters will respond to this boon in some peaceful fashion.
However, anyone who has lived in New York City under the reign of Bloomberg understands that he will concoct some other pretext to further restrict their activities. Perhaps cardboard signs and drums (potential weapons against “first responders”) will be banned next. And one can be certain that the city’s corporate media will continue to peddle inflammatory stories that nearby businesses remain oppressed by OWS rabble.
I would expect that Bloomberg’s legal team is working with the private real estate development firm that manages Zuccotti Park, Brookfield Properties, on whose board sits Bloomberg’s longtime girlfriend Diane Taylor, to find ways to amend the agreement under which the park now operates. It currently permits 24-hour access with few restrictions on usage. That was one of the reasons it was first selected by OWS for its encampment.
Cowardly and provocative actions, under fictitious pretext, by New York City agencies and security forces will not cease in their efforts to disrupt this protest movement.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
@JGabriel: Cool
JGabriel
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik:
Link for pepperspraying? As far as I’ve read, there wasn’t any pepper-spraying during the clear-out. I could be wrong, which is why I’m asking for a link.
As for “blind-sided”, the Guardian reported that protesters were informed several hours before-hand that the park would be cleared out.
So, as far as I’ve seen in my reading, this action from the NYPD was aggresive but not particularly violent. The most legitimate complaint I’ve seen so far seems to be over the cops needless “garbage” collection of people’s stuff.
.
bin Lurkin'
@JGabriel:
This bears repeating, many times.
cathyx
One thing that TPTB don’t realize is that they can break laws and remove and stop the protests and keep people from occupying, but the sentiment of the 99%ers will not go away or lessen. The 1% will continue abusing their power and more and more people will start to get involved who haven’t already. People are fed up.
If we can’t occupy, then there will be other ways protesters will be heard. What the 1%ers don’t get is what they are doing to us can not continue.
Admiral_Komack
@Mark B.:
Maybe the businesses and people in the neighborhood figure the protestors 15 minutes of fame is over and they need to go home.
scav
Bloomberg also went all Health & Safety trumps all over the media
Well, so much for sending reporters into real war zones.
I’m also waiting for Bloomberg to call out his minions for mandatory vaccinations and making sure everyone gets their recommended veggies every day.
ETA: Guard LiveBlog provided quote FYWP.
Waynski
@David in nY: Actually, until this past March I lived downtown since 2002 (first at 88 Greenwich behind Trinity Church and then in BPC), and I worked across the street from Zucotti Park at 120 Broadway for five years until July 2010 (in fact I walked through it every day), so I still know many people who both live and work there. Also, since I lived/worked in the neighborhood, my doctors are still at Trinity Center so I’m in the city to visit them unfortunately all too often. On those visits, I’ve always made a point of hanging out at OWS for a little while and always left a small donation for them. And if you’re not sure where Trinity Center is Dave, I refer you to the picture of Zucotti Park above, it’s the building in the background. I was “speculating” because I wouldn’t presume to speak for all of my former neighbors and co-workers. Personally, I would have had no problem with OWS staying as long as it could or wanted to, but I know plenty of people, while sympathetic, would be fed-up with it after awhile.
icecreammang
@Bnad
I hope you might reconsider your view that they’ve failed to “transform into a political movement ASAP.”
Why they hurry? What’s your timetable? WHY your timetable? What is a political movement if not people “Occupying” in many, many cities across the country? Where does a political movement start? How long does it take? Is the answer always the same?
Are you considering questions like this when you support what Boomberg has done here while saying you’re a supporter of OWS? It appears the police threw personal property in the trash, including the 5,000 book library. It appears this eviction violated a temporary restraining order from yesterday. Is this okay because you’re worried about the mainstream media’s portrayal?
Are such actions justified because this amorphous, consciousness-raising movement doesn’t have a candidate to run for office or a platform? The demands are out there. Any reader of this site is aware of them by now or is willfully ignorant. But we also know these demands are so large and systemic in nature that time, effort and persistence are required. Time, effort and persistence.
C’mon, think harder. It’s not going to get any easier!
Steve
I hadn’t seen this yet, but apparently the National Lawyer’s Guild has obtained a TRO to let the protestors back in the park, and there will be an injunction hearing at 11:30 a.m. today. Should be interesting.
Angela
@Joel: Oh that is terrible. I am sorry.
Mark B.
@Admiral_Komack: So, if people exercising their constitutional rights is annoying to some people, then their rights are suspended? Is that what you’re saying?
Steve
I looked up the judge who granted the TRO in favor of the occupiers. Now, we don’t have a lot of Federalist Society members on the bench here in Manhattan, but still – the judge worked for 25 years at the ACLU. Bahahaha! Luck of the draw indeed.
RalfW
I have not had the courage to read or listen to NPR’s posthumous blowjob of F. A. Hayek this morning.
Anyone dare?
Linda Featheringill
http://nlgnyc.org/2011/11/15/press_rel_libert/
Apparently a judge ordered that the protesters and their belonging be allowed back in the park.
celticdragonchick
A tactcal police unit with automatic weapons forcibly took down bystanders (including credentialed press) and a group of occupiers in a years-long empty car dealership in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. Police defended this today, saying they found “riot literature” that would have endangered first respeonders, including instructions on how to tip over a police car.
http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/11/13/1641362/activists-take-over-vacant-franklin.html
They wonder why we start comparing this to a police state.
Waynski
@JGabriel: Yes, I’m sure they could have waited from a PR perspective, but the holiday shopping season is upon us and the Century 21 Department Store is only one block away, which is a big magnet this time of year for tourists and suburban day trippers. Foot traffic down there is virtually unmanageable after Thanksgiving, throw in large protests and you’ve got logistical headaches from the city’s perspective. I’m not agreeing with it or saying it’s right, I’m just pointing out that there are likely other concerns the mayor may not be talking about (didn’t read his letter though – maybe he mentioned this stuff).
celticdragonchick
@icecreammang:
The government version of “easier to say ‘sorry later’ then bother getting permission in the first place.”
Admiral_Komack
@Mark B.:
No.
What I am saying is OWS’s 15 minutes of fame is over and it is time to go.
Mnemosyne
@Mark B.:
If McQueary is supposed to testify against Sandusky, can he really say anything publicly before that? I have to admit, I’m not really sure how it works, but I think that the prosecutors want you to keep your mouth shut until you’re actually under oath so the defendant can’t claim that the press coverage tainted the trial.
Rafer Janders
@Waynski:
Just guessing here but I think the folks that live and work in the neighborhood that aren’t Wall Street (a much higher number than many people realize) as well as the Wall Street employees that don’t make gazillions (many, many more than people realize as well) must have reached a tipping point.
And…your guess is wrong. I’m a downtown New Yorker, pass the park everyday, and people down here are generally supportive of OWS. Sure, to some people it’s a minor annoyance, but so what? I bet some of the people with apartments above Tahrir Square wished they’d all go away too. But democracy isn’t free.
Also, too, the occupation wasn’t the annoyance the media made it out to be. If you are a block away from it you’d never even know it was there. What IS an inconvenience, howeever, is not the protestors, but the police over-reaction to them by putting up multiple steel barricades, shutting down streets, erecting barricades, etc. No protestor ever stopped me from going where I want to go. The police, however, do so multiple times.
Nemesis
The police kept the reporters out of Liberty Square for the protection of the reporters themselves?
I call bullshit. The near perfect situation would have been for reporters to be injured, so Bloomberg could blame the movement for violence.
Wait, what? Oh, yeah, reporters WERE injured by the police. Move along.
Rafer Janders
@Robert:
1) NYPD are underpaid, overworked, and lose their low-paying jobs if they decide to disobey an order like get the protesters out of the park.
Um, no. The NYPD is not underpaid, the jobs pay very well compared to other major city police forces. More if you do overtime, which leads me to the “overworked” point — if a cop is doing more than 40 hours a week it’s generally by choice so they can make more money. And, since they’re unionized, they can’t be fired on a whim.
Librarian
They destroyed a 5000 book library. The destruction of the OWS library wasn’t exactly on the same scale as that of the library of Alexandria or the German destruction of the Louvain library, but it will go down in history as being the same type of political act, the deliberate destruction of cultural resources. By that act, the anti-OWS forces truly revealed their action today as an act of barbarism. Sheer barbarism.
celticdragonchick
@Librarian:
Destruction of private property and intellectual/cultural resources.
Welcome to the next generation of Vandals…only now, they work for the Romans and burn out the peasants.
Rafer Janders
@Admiral_Komack:
Maybe the businesses and people in the neighborhood figure the protestors [sic] 15 minutes of fame is over and they need to go home.
Maybe the businesses and people in Selma and Birmingham and Little Rock and St. Augustine and Mississippi figured the civil rights protestors’ 15 minutes of fame were over and they needed to go home. In a democracy, however, we don’t make our First Amendment freedoms contingent on what the neighbors find inconvenient.
Rafer Janders
@Waynski:
Oh, come on. If you actually lived and worked down here as you claim, you know that if you stand in front of the south side of Century 21 you can barely hear or see Zucotti Park, and it’s only a block away. And if you stand on the north or west sides, it’s basically invisible.
handsmile
@Rafer Janders: (#64)
Mark B.
@Mnemosyne: Apparently it was an excerpt from an email to the team, I’m not sure it was ever meant to be public.
Admiral_Komack
@Rafer Janders:
I’m not comparing OWS to the civil rights movement; you are.
I find that comparision hilarious considering OWS-Atlanta (I believe) let John Lewis know that “consensus” means “we don’t want you to speak”.
I’ve given OWS the side-eye since that incident.
bjacques
@Librarian:
Funny you should mention the Louvain library. A couple of weeks ago, at the local used book market, I found an album of photos of the German sack 25-29 August 1914 of the city center, including the library, and posted them here.
handsmile
This Guardian article chillingly details the tyrannical efforts of the Bloomberg administration to limit media coverage of the cowardly police raid on Zuccotti Park early this morning, as well as police treatment of reporters on site:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/15/occupy-journalists-media-blackout
There is no excuse, no defense, for what occurred, not in the city of some despotic regime, but here in New York City today.
At this very moment, NYC police are refusing to comply with a court order stating that protesters must be allowed to return to Zuccotti Park now.
This what “democracy” looks like.
Waynski
@Rafer Janders:
A) Please read post 51. I lived downtown for nine years until I moved all of eight mos. ago. How long have you been there?
B) If there’s been a poll conducted asking people below Fulton St. how long they want the protesters to stay, I’d love to see it, and I hope I am wrong about them being fed up. However, if there isn’t a poll, you’re just guessing too.
C) I’m a little flummoxed by the hostile reaction of certain people here to my suggestion that some residents will tire eventually of having a tent city of protesters camped out in their neighborhood. As I mentioned in a separate post, I personally wouldn’t mind, but some people will even if they’re supportive of the message.
Rafer Janders
@Waynski:
A) 10 years, since right before the WTC attacks.
B) You concede you left eight months ago. I’m still here. You’re guessing. I’m not.
C) Sure, some people will object, but so what? That’s completely irrelevant to the right of the protestors to be there.
Rafer Janders
@Waynski:
Also, too, re (B), in a democracy we don’t generally poll the neighbors as to whether other American citizens should be allowed to protest for their civil rights.
shano
Court will decide at 3 pm. Live stream on Ustream/the 99
Waynski
@Rafer Janders:
A) Good for you.
B) Piffle.
C) I never suggested people didn’t have a right to protest.