Are you at all surprised by the Penn State serial child-rape and subsequent cover-up? I am not, not at all. It would have been a big scandal for a high-profile, locally popular program had it come out at the time, so people covered it up, end of story. That happens all the time with all kinds of crimes.
I cannot fathom why some people are saying that they can’t believe this happened.
It seems to break down along political lines, to some extent, with conservatives (Bobo, McMegan) being surprised and liberals being not surprised. Is that your sense too, that liberals expect corruption and depravity at highest levels of society (though not there exclusively) while conservatives think that Great Men like Joe Paterno are always good people (EDIT: and are shocked to learn that they are not)?
Update. Some of you seem to think I am saying conservatives condone this or deny that it happened. I am saying that they do not condone it or deny it, merely that they are more surprised by it.
MikeJ
When I learned DougJ really was Reality Check I have to admit I had sort of suspected it all along. I’ve come to expect that sort of depravity.
Michael D.
Doug, come on. Really? Everyone thinks this sucks. To the extent people are Paterno fans, that’s emotional.
I think most of us are on the same page on this one in the end. Or will be.
Most of us.
Linda Featheringill
All athletes are good people and all coaches are saints. Don’t you know that?
Scott P.
Conservatives tend to divide the world into ‘good people’ and ‘bad people’, with good, white, god-fearing folk in the first category and liberals, poor people, and atheists in the second. That manichean view of the world explains why they are so fixated on “welfare cheats” and “voting fraud”. In effect, they see the liberal welfare state as an attempt by ‘bad people’ to steal from ‘good people’.
Rick
Circle gets a square.
My guess is that liberals are more realistic when it comes to structural injustice, or to put it succinctly, that power corrupts and absolute power etc.
Hence our preference for egalitarianism, and our concern with income inequality. Whereas they still seem to believe that inequality stems naturally from meritocracy, and show contempt for “redistributionism”.
Cat Lady
Republicans/conservatives are emotionally stunted and socially retarded. They’re unable or unwilling to perceive patterns and refuse to connect the dots, because it may lead them out of their rigid ideological box, so no, it doesn’t surprise me that they spend their whole lives sticking their fingers in their ears saying la la la la la can’t hear you.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
No surprise. Sports fans are innately depraved.
.
.
phillygirl
I don’t know if I expect corruption and depravity at the highest levels of society. But of course I expect it in college football, for Christ’s sake. Except maybe at Amherst.
suzanne
I am horrified, but not genuinely surprised.
I have long thought that the cult of sports is a poison to our society, and, in concert with our rape culture, something of this nature was to be expected. I mean, the exact same shit went down with the Catholic Church, so I can’t imagine that anyone with even the observational powers of a hamster couldn’t see something like this coming.
Wow. When you throw limitless money and praise and celebrity at people for doing something of no genuine value or worth to humanity, eventually their values get fucked up? You don’t say.
Jenny
/fixed.
C’mon. They’re only shocked because Joe Pa is fat head Republican who eats at Applebees. If he were Alec Baldwin, they would have been saying, “see, we were right about Hollywood/California/New York City/Urban/Nobu values… blah, blah, blah”.
Punchy
This only happens because college campuses are a breeding ground of liberal depravity and irresponsibility.
Rick
@Michael D. “Everyone thinks this sucks”. True about the molestation, but as with the Catholic Church, people are willing to make excuses for inaction and/or outright cover-up. Hence, we have Blessed JP2, and Saint Joe of Happy Valley.
DougJ
@Michael D.:
Try reading the post before commenting next time.
EDIT: Actually, I see what you are getting at, I will edit the post for clarity. Sorry about that.
handy
@Scott P.:
Not really adding anything to your (well-stated) point, but I used to listen to Dennis Prager some years back and he always, inevitably drew this sort of line. It drove me nuts hearing his too-clever-by-half appeals to “common sense” and strawmen in defense of this nonsense. He struck me as one of the smarter ones in that he never screamed at people or called them silly names like Rush, but in the end it all coalesces around the same things: white male culture good, not white male culture bad.
Richard W. Crews
come on, dj! that was the lowest thing you’ve ever said here. i consider it totally out of character for you – you get a mulligan. with a time limit.
ish 2 u.
PeakVT
Conservatives hate when the hierarchy is disrupted, even if they’re not the ones on top.
khead
No. I’m cynical as hell and a huge college football fan while also recognizing that college athletics is a giant cesspool.
But even I can’t believe this shit. Seriously. Stunned does not even begin to describe it.
catclub
@suzanne: “I mean, the exact same shit went down with the Catholic Church,”
A notable difference: Paterno was fired within ten days of the story coming out. How many Bishops, Archbishops or Cardinals fired? Zero?
DougJ
@Richard W. Crews:
My point might be more clear with the edit, I am certainly not accusing conservatives of condoning this, quite the opposite.
catclub
@Rick: “Hence, we have Blessed JP2, and Saint Joe of Happy Valley.”
Except JoePa has already been fired by his organization.
JP2? Not so much. Ratzo? Even less fired.
Hawes
Liberals tend to think “people” are good, but are not surprised when individuals are bad.
Conservatives tend to think individuals they know are good, but the “people” are depraved.
See Bobo, Salad Bar
Friedman, Cab Drivers
burnspbesq
Over 200 comments on the earlier thread, 15 on this one, and not a single person, as near as I can tell, can seem to recall that NOTHING HAS BEEN PROVEN.
What is ALLEGED is so horrifying that it is completely unsurprising that people who should know better have taken leave of their senses. Still …
smintheus
My conservative neighbor is just as disgusted with it as I am, and no more surprised.
Dork
If I had to put a finger on it, I’d say it’s because in most situations, the crime is relatively mild but the coverup is crazy whack (think Enron), or the crime is brutal but the coverup is weak (think Gitmo or waterboarding), but in this case, both aspects are just mind-blowing. For example, to envision that a grown man witnessed a boy being raped and did nothing to stop it defies belief. And to find out that Paterno knew all this about this scumbag but still allowed him on campus, in the locker room, and in those showers defies belief.
This is why people are so shocked. Both the crimes and the incredible coverup are fantastically disgusting.
The Dangerman
Surprised at the serial rape? Of course. When isn’t that surprising? Surprised at the coverup? Once again, of course. This is Damage Control 101; something bad happens, get it out there and cut your losses.
That being said, I live practically next door to a large University (at least in stature, if not in enrollment) in a small town, reasonably isolated from a major market. I’ve seen how powerful a University President can be up close and personal. In the matter I personally witnessed, it was only immoral, not illegal. I’ll leave it alone as to whether acting immorally to protect the brand is acceptable.
A powerful brand, an isolated campus, a Coach intoxicated on his perceived power, a gutless graduate assistant, and stunning negligence from that Coach’s superiors were a toxic combination.
So, to bottom line it, surprised that this would happen at a place like Penn State? Not at all.
DougJ
@burnspbesq:
Your reaction is the strangest of all.
amused
Anyone who’s heard of Dyncorp isn’t surprised. Of course it can/has happen(ed) here.
Rick
@catclub I agree — that is a key difference. But in the eyes of many, JoePa remains a hero. Hundreds of life-size cardboard cutouts of JoePa in State College are still objects of reverence.
Crashman
@burnspbesq: Did you read the Grand Jury testimony? Because I bet you didn’t.
Hawes
@burnspbesq: The finding of facts in the Grand Jury report is pretty damning. Yeah, he’s innocent in a court of law until proven guilty, but c’mon.
We’re not a jury here. One way or another, Penn State has a legal obligation to report the events. Doesn’t even matter if it “happened”. If there is suspicion of child abuse or molestation, then you have to report.
That’s undeniable and undenied.
Dork
He already admitted to at least one impropriety.
smintheus
@burnspbesq: Get off your soapbox, things are documented in the grand jury testimony. For ex., we know that Sandusky showered with boys and at a minimum fondled them…as he admitted. We also know that various people who acknowledge that they saw grossly inappropriate behavior did not report it to the police…as they admitted. And you’re saying we still don’t know whether any crimes were committed?
slag
@DougJ: FWIW, I didn’t need the edit to understand your point.
Not surprised by this. And agree with suzanne on sports and religion. Personally, I think the problem with conservatives is that they simply cannot see tribalism in those they deem part of their klan. And tribalism is at the root of this cover-up. Even more so than money, I would argue.
Xenos
@phillygirl:
No way. Bunch of arrogant, soccer-hating punks, the Jeff pigskinners are. Their doom awaits at Cole Field tomorrow.
/eph
khead
@burnspbesq:
I’m alleging you should be shot.
handy
DougJ something missing in your original post is pinpointing where the “leading” conservatives are with this story? I haven’t been trolling Redstate or listening to AM radio lately so I have no idea.
But I wouldn’t be surprised if another dynamic is playing out: deny (“this scandal is awful awful awful” completely ignoring the power issues) and disown (“he never really was one of us”).
Rick
@burnspbesq Okay–for the sake of argument–lets say McQueary was on a bad acid trip, and hallucinated that he saw a boy being anally raped in the shower. And he relayed his hallucination to Paterno, and Paterno tells Curley and whatshisname, but at no time does anybody say anything to law enforcement. Still criminal negligence? Maybe?
burnspbesq
@Crashman:
Yes, I read the grand jury report. If everything in it is true, it’s sickening. But it’s not proof of anything.
lamh35
I didn’t expect him to touch this story, since there is no comedy in it, but Jon Stewart did a brief segment on this story nd he reaction of the students to Joe Pa firing and it was an understated yet strong rebuke of some of he student “defenders” of joe Pa. Did anyone else see it?
handy
@khead:
PFFFFFFFFFFT!!! Root beer on my monitor and keyboard. Thanks.
For the record I do not approve this message, alleged or otherwise.
Hawes
@khead: Sandusky is still provided the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. I get his point there.
But Paterno and all the other officials at Penn State failed to report the incident. That’s not been denied, and that’s why they lost their jobs. They failed in their job requirement and their moral duty as educators.
The Dangerman
@burnspbesq:
Well, I stand by my posts from the other post regarding we have no great idea what Paterno knew, when he knew it, and what he was directed to do by a Superior that was apparently not all that superior.
Reading the tea leaves, Paterno went along with a series of really stupid actions on the part of people in the PSU Administration who should have known much, MUCH better…
…and I still think he’s been made a fall guy by that Administration.
So, burnspbesq, I join you on the island to be flamed.
Suffern ACE
@DougJ: Why? Burns is a lawyer. I expect lawyers to react that way. In general, it’s supposed to prevent the rest of us from forming mobs and going “oops” if additional evidence doesn’t play out the way we want to. When even the lawyers bring out their pitchforks, we’re rather screwed.
DougJ
@handy:
I haven’t seen it discussed on RedState etc. just seen Bobo and McMegan write about it.
fasteddie9318
Stewart just did a completely serious segment ripping the students who rioted last night. It was pretty good.
lamh35 beat me to it.
DougJ
@The Dangerman:
I actually agree that we don’t know Paterno’s exact roll in this. Burns seems to be saying more than that, though.
Dr. Loveless
Authoritarian personalities (such as most — though not all — conservatives tend to be) usually react with shock when their appointed leaders abuse their authority. Sarah Robinson write an excellent series of essays about this on Orcinus a few years back; in her view, “personal betrayal” is one of the prime reasons that authoritarian followers turn against their communities.
The series is called “Cracks in the Wall.” Highly recommended.
mclaren
I guess what surprises me is…why boys? You’d think girls, wouldn’t you? Jocks? College athletes? I would’ve expected girls…
Perfect Tommy
I am sickened by the number of my former PSU classmates and colleagues that are still defending Paterno. Some have gone as far as calling his firing a lynching that is the work of a kakocracy. “He did everything he was required to do by law. Why is he being persecuted?” These are educated people with advanced degrees, one, a former mentor. Sad…
slag
@smintheus: Shhh…don’t you know that you cannot discuss any issue until it’s been settled beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law? ALLEGEDLY, that is. We don’t know for sure that you cannot. Better safe than sorry.
burnspbesq
@smintheus:
You can choose to believe whatever the fuck you choose to believe. You can, for example, believe that I am being excessively legalistic about this. My response is that there is no such thing as excessively legalistic where legal matters are concerned.
The allegations in the McMartin Preschool indictments were every bit as horrifying as the allegations in the Sandusky grand jury report. Remind me again how many of the McMartin defendants were convicted.
handy
@Suffern ACE:
Lawyers express opinions about issues all the time, adjudicated and otherwise. In fact most are quite good at it, so much so that they get paid for it. Besides, in this case it’s not the crime it’s the cover-up.
@DougJ:
Fair enough.
burnspbesq
@khead:
I’ll send you my address. You don’t have the balls to do it.
SuzieC
@Dork:
Yes, in this instance the cover-up is not worse than the crime, but is as bad as the crime. Especially as it may turn out, as I expect, that many, many people in the Penn State community knew about Sandusky and turned a blind eye.
Will be interesting to see the conservative reaction to this. Rick Santorum did the right thing–will others?
(PS: I’m also a lawyer (hides).)
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
Yes, I have to say I’m surprised.
First, because Penn State had an above-board football program, at least by NCAA standards. It looked from the outside like the complete opposite culture of what we’re finding now.
Second, because I expect any formal program that deals with kids to have some sort of Youth Protection standards like the ones I had to enforce as a Cub Scout leader.
Third, ’cause by now doesn’t everyone know it’s the coverup that disgraces you, not the crime? Guess not.
khead
@Hawes:
The ’99 retirement by Sandusky only makes sense when given the context of the ’98 investigations.
Feel free to get in the firing line next to burnspbesq.
Jewish Steel
@mclaren: According to what I’ve heard, it’s not a sex thing. It’s a power thing.
The Dangerman
@DougJ:
His/Her point is correct; at this point, all crimes are only alleged…
…but the firings and resignations are proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
Bottom line, it’s a mess; how PSU got into such a mess will be academic Case Studies for decades. The incompetence/recklessness/etc. is staggering.
cxs
@phillygirl: Eph?
Crashman
@burnspbesq: Sorry, I don’t know much about the McMartin preschool stuff, but wasn’t much of that based on children’s testimony/recollections? In this case, we have a 28 year old who testified to the grand jury that he saw Sandusky raping a 10 year old. He told JoePa about this; doesn’t really matter if JoePa heard “rape” or “fondling.” This man based his entire career on “doing things the right way” and when it came down to it, all he did was kick the can up the road. This man was one of the most powerful men in PA. He brushed off an attempt by the board to force him out of the head coach position in 2004 by simply ignoring them. If he wanted to do the right thing, and report this to police, I honestly think he could have. But he didn’t.
khead
@burnspbesq:
I’m just alleging.
cxs
@Xenos: I see a fellow Eph beat me to it.
Rick
@mclaren. Google “junior hockey abuse”. Outwardly straight middle-aged men seem to have been buggering boys since the dawn of time. Go figure.
honus
@Michael D.: I can’t decide if I’m on the same page with the Penn State students rioting in support of Paterno, or the people threatening McQueary’s life.
burnspbesq
@Crashman:
By the time this case gets to trial, McQueary will be testifying about things that happened eleven years ago.
Thought experiment: tell us exactly what you were doing at 11:52 p.m. Eastern time on November 10, 2000. See my point?
It may well be that Sandusky did everything he is alleged to have done. I actually won’t be surprised if it turns out that he did it all. But as of now I don’t feel that I know enough to make that call, and I respectfully submit that neither do you.
wk
@Hawes: This is a great comment. Expanding on the idea, I think people loosely fall into 1 of 2 categories: those who view the world as a big place within which they have a limited viewpoint, and those who actively maintain a small worldview within which their perspective is complete and valid. I think the latter category helps to explain science denialism, e.g., “how could there be global warming when we’re having an unusual snowstorm?” A corollary to this (admittedly artificial) categorization is the point that Hawes made at #21.
Gin & Tonic
@burnspbesq: The allegations in the McMartin Preschool indictments were every bit as horrifying
Special Patrol Group
One presumes it’s because both Bobo and McMegan are elitist fuckheads.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@The Dangerman:
I actually have some sympathy for him. 27 years old, witnesses something that if he does the right thing, it wrecks his employer and his career, and if he does the wrong thing, same outcome, only delayed, and much worse.
He basically walked into a life-changing moment, didn’t realize that he was on a cusp where his life and his long-term plans were f*cked no matter what he did, and made the wrong decision. Like I said on a previous thread, it reminds me a lot of Teddy Kennedy at Chappaquiddick.
Could be extenuating circumstances, not the least of which is panic, which shuts down the prefrontal cortex and throws us all into Lizard Brain.
normal liberal
Nice to see the Ephs maintaining hallowed tradition.
MikeJ
@burnspbesq:
Tell us exactly what was going on when you saw a ten year old boy being raped.
If such an even doesn’t stand out in your memory you’re a pretty sick person.
Cacti
@burnspbesq:
Your point is weak sauce.
Some days are obviously more memorable than others. Like your wedding day, or the birth of your kids…or the day you saw your old coach ass-pounding a kid in a shower.
srv
What is the breakdown of young republicans in the freshman class of PSU?
I’m guessing it isn’t a liberal bastion.
some guy
@burnspbesq: Over 200 comments on the earlier thread, 15 on this one, and not a single person, as near as I can tell, can seem to recall that NOTHING HAS BEEN PROVEN.
last night you told us this would all blow over (see Duke Lacrosse) and tonight you are on a “where is the testimony, proffered under oath?” kick.
have you been right about anything? ever?
Crashman
@burnspbesq: Perhaps we’ll have to agree to disagree, but I’m fairly certain that he would have remembered seeing something as horrible and disturbing as this. Paterno put out a statement yesterday that contained this phrase:
Um…Sure sounds like some kind of omission of guilt to me. If all of this is blown out of proportion, what exactly is JoePa regretting here?
I’m not out for his blood. He seems, by all accounts, to be a generally good and decent guy. But people are complicated. It sure seems like he made one gigantic mistake, and unfortunately, people suffered because of that choice.
burnspbesq
@MikeJ:
Let’s wait and see what the jury thinks McQueary saw after a good defense attorney gets done cross-examining him.
Suffern ACE
@handy: Yes, lawyers express opinions. I just don’t expect them to be at the front of the “burn down Penn State and salt the ground where it stood” mob. I’d rather they not join in on that, even those that in this case think a conviction is guaranteed.
Jebediah
@burnspbesq:
That’s fucking stupid. If I saw a rape happening, you can believe I would remember it a lot longer than eleven years. If nothing memorable happened, than I would not remember it.
Observer
I’ll say it…conservatives condone this or deny that it happened.
They’re the same conservatives who have “purity” balls yet live in the counties with the highest rates of sex crimes against children but somehow always manage to vote in Republicans.
Was that so hard?
Gin & Tonic
@burnspbesq:
And people wonder why Henry VI is quoted so often.
burnspbesq
@some guy:
If that’s what you took away from what I said last night, then I am absolutely, unequivocally correct to conclude that you are the stupidest piece of trash to ever walk the face of this planet.
Let me make it really simple for you, so you won’t fail to get it, no matter how hard you try: all of my references to Duke and McMartin are intended to make the point that people who are widely believed to be guilty of horrible crimes sometimes turn out to not be guilty of anything. All I am saying is that in my view, it is premature to judge. If you think it’s not premature, then by all means go for it. But you’re wrong.
eemom
No, I am not.
What I AM suprised at, though I shouldn’t be, is how every post on this topic exponentially multiplies the infinite variety of idiocy and/or assholery on display on this blog on the subject.
The attacks on Mnemosyne on the previous posts for example.
And on this one, the usual wide-eyed-wondering DougJ “Wow — what to MAKE of this?” persona…..and burnsie’s ridiculous insistence on comparing it to the McMartin case.
Good fucking night.
Angela
@Dr. Loveless: Did you read Bob Altemeyer’s e-book The Authoritarians? Her series was based on his work.
Jebediah
@burnspbesq:
What the fuck does that have to do with what actually happened?
I heard that, this one time, lawyers were able to make a jury think OJ didn’t kill his wife.
smintheus
@burnspbesq:
Are you rejecting what people involved told the grand jury they themselves did/failed to do? If not, then you have to admit that crimes were committed.
smintheus
@burnspbesq: I don’t believe the McMartin defendants admitted to anything that made them culpable. And fwiw, I didn’t believe those allegations for a moment (nor the Duke lacrosse allegations).
Eric U.
I’m going to admit to being surprised about this. Particularly that Graham Spanier failed to stop this. I have some petty reasons to dislike him, but I never thought he was a monster. If he had put an end to it, he probably would have lost his job, but he would be employable now. I guess he’s old enough to retire.
Among many petty reasons I dislike him is that he gave himself a raise last year even though the rest of us didn’t get any. A “Penn State Spokesman” told reporters it was because he did such a great job. Great job, Dr. Spanier.
burnspbesq
@smintheus:
No, I don’t. What I have to admit is that the grand jury found that there was sufficient evidence to indict.
slag
@Angela: A lot of atheists like to make the point that authoritarianism can and often does lead to moral relativism. There are way too many cases in point to be worth mentioning.
suzanne
@burnspbesq:
I respectfully call bullshit. One of the only defenses we have to this pernicious rape culture that surrounds us is to name the crime and to shun the perpetrators, even if no one ever serves a day in prison or even sees the inside of a courtroom.
honus
@burnspbesq: There was also that investigation when two detectives recorded Sandusky confessing to multiple molestation of young boys that the DA, now missing for 7 years and presumed dead, decided not to prosecute.
But I understand where you’re coming from. After all, a bunch of mostly rich white athletes from your school were accused of rape when all they really did was have a keg party and hired black junkie strippers and then wrote e-mails fantasizing about dismembering them while masturbating onto their corpses. But they didn’t actually break any laws, so they have been lauded as victims and heroes ever since.
And to be fair and balanced, I should note that George Huguely is technically not guilty of any crime as of yet, either.
srv
@mclaren: Title IX has not been around long enough for equal opportunity rape.
Jade Jordan
I’m amazed that people still think the program was clean from an NCAA standpoint. If you can hide multiple child rapes on campus, NCAA violations should be easy to hide.
If people on campus can witness child rape and not report it why would they report money handshakes or free goods.
smintheus
@burnspbesq:
I still remember exactly what I was doing the afternoon 38 years ago a teenage girl from the next state was kidnapped, driven to my town, dragged into the woods across from my house, raped, and killed. And I remember my own reactions vividly, as well as those of my family and neighbors, right after the murder.
some guy
@burnspbesq:
last night at 11:41 pm, our slimy tax avoidance lawyer had this to say:
Far sooner than that, if they make a good hire.
Not a perfect analogy, but Duke played for the national championship in lacrosse in 2007.
you sure are one prevaricating son of a bitch, ain’t ya?
MikeJ
Hundreds of comments and nobody has mentioned that OJ Simpson was never convicted of murder, therefore his ex-wife was never murdered.
Tractarian
burnspbesq is right. The grand jury believed McQueary; didn’t believe Curley or Schultz. There is no reason to assume that the grand jury was necessarily correct (especially given the fact that the evidence they considered is confidential) or that a petit jury will necessarily arrive at the same conclusion.
It took guts for burns to say that, frankly, what with the entire Internet seemingly in a who-hates-child-molesters-more contest.
And now, to draw some real flame fire, I’ll pose another unasked question:
Why didn’t the victims report this?. Because if just one of those kids had the temerity to tell their parents what happened, I guarantee law enforcement would have gotten involved, and quick. I guess going to camp at Linebacker U was more important to them than seeing Sandusky stopped.
burnspbesq
@honus:
Ask yourself why he decided not to prosecute. More specifically, ask yourself whether those recordings were admissible.
The Fat Kate Middleton
@mclaren: You make me sick.@burnspbesq: They pimped the kids to rich donors. That’s all.
honus
@burnspbesq: There’s a whole lot of space between “guilty of horrible crimes” and “not guilty of anything.”
I’m a lawyer, too, and as a result know that there are a lot of despicable acts that are not crimes, and a lot of crimes that are not proven or punished. I tell clients every day that the judicial system is far from perfect in determining facts or achieving fair outcomes. You know very well that innocent people enter guilty pleas every day, and parties who are not culpable pay to settle lawsuits rather than risk trial.
sb
Mark May just became one of my favorite sportscasters.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7217029
RosiesDad
@burnspbesq:
Really? That’s what you’ve got? The intimation that a good defense attorney can twist an accurate recollection of a heinous act into something less than that for the purpose of acquitting a guilty client?
I think there is little doubt, based on what is known (Grand Jury, Paterno’s reaction, the prior 1998 investigation) that Sandusky is a pederast and a predator. And people at PSU who were in a position to STOP IT didn’t, giving this creep the opportunity to prey on more innocent children.
Paterno got what he deserved. So did Spanier, Curley and Schultz. Why McQueary still has his job is a mystery to me.
Jebediah
@Tractarian:
Yeah, you’re gonna get whomped for that, and rightfully so.
As for Burns’ points, it sometimes seems like he confuses the courtroom and the comment thread. A comment thread can’t send someone to prison, and so the rules are a little more lax.
smintheus
@burnspbesq: Sandusky admitted to fondling a child in a shower. How is that not a crime?
burnspbesq
@some guy:
You sure are an idiot, aren’t you. What you quoted out of context came from a discussion about how this mess would affect the Penn State football program. That discussion had nothing to do with whether any particular person is guilty of any particular crime.
That’s OK. You’ve erroneously concluded that I’m a scumbag, and nothing else matters to you. Do us both a favor: either pie me or go away.
Sixers
This is bullshit. I’m a dem and I’m shocked by this story. Guess I’m not as worldly as dougj.
honus
@burnspbesq: Stop being a lawyer. Search for the truth. Ask yourself if the content of the recordings tend to show whether the molestation really happened or not.
And for the record, in Pennsylvania, the recordings are admissible. It’s more likely that the prosecutor decided not to prosecute to avoid embarrassment to the largest, most beloved and most powerful organization in his jurisdiction.
West of the Cascades
@Suffern ACE: Actually, I am a lawyer and I’m happy to grab my pitchfork and join the “burn down Penn State football and salt the earth” mob. And I can believe that without having to also believe that Sandusky is guilty or to prejudge his guilt or “accept” the allegations of abuse. Here’s why (leave aside for a moment burnspbesq’s notion that you can never be too legalistic where legal matters are concerned):
First, most of the calls for immediate action on this blog and in the comments the last couple of days relate to potential actions against current Penn State employees — Paterno, McQueary, Curley, Schultz, Spanier — for their inaction as Penn State employees, not necessarily whether they are guilty as a matter of criminal law. Action or inaction not in the best interest of the employer is usually grounds for dismissal (ditto action/inaction that exposes your employer to serious potential civil liability). And their inactions not only were not in the ultimate best interest of Penn State, but were pretty loathsome from a societal perspective, based on what the four employees besides Spanier testified to under oath before the grand jury regarding their knowledge of suspected child abuse and their subsequent inaction.
I personally believe the evidence looks overwhelming against Sandusky, but – on this point burnspbesq is right – they remain allegations and not proven facts at this point. I hope when (perdon, “if”) they’re proven or Sandusky pleads out, he goes to jail for a long, long time.
But that doesn’t prevent Penn State from taking action against employees who acted against the best interests of the university as proven by their own sworn grand jury testimony. All those who testified to the grand jury indicated they were aware of “suspected child abuse” in 2002, the standard for mandatory reporting in Pennsylvania. All failed to report it to Child Welfare Services or the police. Spanier evidently was aware of the abuse allegations, shown by his approving the order that Sandusky no longer be permitted to bring children onto campus.
That none of them went further than they did is grounds for their dismissal. It’s also outrageous morally, and the five Penn State employees deserve every ounce of opprobrium being heaped on them.
Second, this is a blog, it isn’t a fucking court of law where one has to be “legalistic” regarding legal matters. Sandusky (and Curley and Schultz on their perjury charges) will get their days in court. The tenor of most of the argument here is about how an institution should respond to eyewitness reports of 57 year-old men raping 10 year old boys at the institution. And the shameful failure to report suspected child abuse even though the law requires it. And allowing the alleged child rapist to remain free to prey on other children after 2002. And about what individuals and institutions should have done, and should do, to prevent similar things from happening again.
Four people have provided sworn testimony either having witnessed the incident or had it personally reported to them. You don’t even have to agree with the grand jury that McQueary’s testimony about what he told Curley and Schultz is more credible than their testimony about what they heard from him to be able to say — from a standpoint of their continued employment — that they fucked up very, very badly (from a moral and institutional perspective – and, I believe, from a legal perspective) in not reporting the suspected child abuse to the state authority to which, by law, they were required to report it.
And one way Penn State can prevent anything like this from happening again is to clean house — or, put another way, to burn down their football program and salt the earth.
burnspbesq
@The Fat Kate Middleton:
And you know this how?
smintheus
@Tractarian:
Vile.
Tractarian
You’re begging the question here. You assume McCreary’s recollection is accurate. Why?
A jury might think, if he really saw what he says he saw, he would have called the police, not his coach. And they just might be right.
Tractarian
Maybe so. Also true.
some guy
@burnspbesq:
you lied upthread about what you said last night, because you thought nobody would call you on it. jeebus, you even posited the idea that Urban Meyer could help turn around the PSU football team if given a chance.
you really are a complete and utter scumbag. spending a career keeping corporations and wealthy individuals from paying their fair share of taxes has really twisted you, hasn’t it?
good to see others on this thread calling out your flatulence defending those who looked the other way while monsters preyed on preteen kids.
Anne Laurie
@mclaren:
Hunter say “Go where the game (prey) is“. Jocks and jock enablers get plenty of chances to mistreat young women, true, but most prepubescent girls don’t dream of the chance to hang around the jocks’ locker room. Sandusky (assuming, thank you Burnspbesq, the allegations are true) chose an “avocation” that would give him a reason for hanging around young boy obsessed with the “stars” of his day job. If he’d been interested in prepubescent girls, he’d’ve started an equestrian-based foundation… or become the manager of a boy band.
J. Michael Neal
I’m surprised burns can reach a conclusion about what to have for breakfast without a unanimous decision by 12 waitresses.
William Hurley
What was Reagan’s “11th Commandment” is now the GOP’s “Golden Gag Rule”.
Thou shall not speak ill or reveal the evil deeds of a wealthy and/or famous Party financier.
Mao and Machiavelli would be proud!
smintheus
@J. Michael Neal: I think burns could sit down opposite you with a waffle sticking out of your mouth and opine that maybe you hadn’t eaten anything.
RosiesDad
@Tractarian:
You could see a 10 year old kid being raped in the shower by a 50 something year old man (who you have known for years) and then recall it inaccurately later? I couldn’t. It would be burned into the back of my eyeballs for the rest of my life. And then there is the issue of the 4 people who testified that the incident was reported to them at the time.
A jury might wonder why he didn’t call the police right after he separated Sandusky from the child and beat the coach into a coma. That’s what I wondered when I heard the account. But this doesn’t invalidate what he says he saw.
Brian S
@Tractarian:
Ever been a victim of sexual abuse? If you haven’t, may I suggest that you shut the fuck up about what victims should have done and how you imagine police would have reacted in a case involving a respected member of a small community.
CarolDuhart2
@Tractarian: My God, don’t you get it? It takes years to come to terms with that, the mixture of guilt, fear and confusion. And no telling what the perpetrators tell their victims about telling the authorities-the threats, the promises. And if you are a football kid with dreams of leaving the inner city or the country town, threats of having the one chance to make good taken away may be enough to enforce silence. And if you are ten, you don’t know what to do about this or who to tell.
Gin & Tonic
@Tractarian:
At least two did. As a direct result of one of them, and a persistent mother, we are where we are.
One of the earlier ones, unfortunately, led to a decision by the missing-and-declared-dead DA to not prosecute.
Tractarian
Try again! You’re still assuming that he saw what he said he saw.
Xenos
@smintheus:
Eating implies swallowing. Having a piece of waffle sticking out of one’s mouth may be taken as evidence that you intended to eat, and initiated the process of eating, but not that you had, indeed, eaten anything.
Jebediah
@Tractarian:
So, what is your theory, then? Why did he make up a story about seeing a guy (that many knew or suspected was a kid-diddler) molesting a kid? His life (especially now) would have been a hell of a lot easier if he had never seen anything, after all.
slag
@Jebediah: Yes. You’re making the mistake of applying Occam’s Razor when Chaos Theory would do nicely. Especially if you would rather be a pretentious, sanctimonious douche than someone who makes assessments based on the information in front of him and is prepared to change them as new information presents itself.
Mnemosyne
@honus:
I didn’t realize those were separate groups. I’ve seen plenty of people online (elsewhere, thank God) who are convinced that if McQueary had just kept his mouth shut like a good little soldier, Papa Joe would still be in charge.
Calouste
@Gin & Tonic:
Or that joke about 2000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean.
Mnemosyne
@Tractarian:
So much for people thinking that 30 years of education about the dynamics of child abuse means people actually understand it.
Why don’t kids report that their parents are beating them? If they don’t immediately call 911 and say, “My dad just gave me a black eye,” then clearly they’re lying about the whole thing.
Admiral_Komack
A friend had to shush me yesterday because every time I saw those thugs rioting at Perp State on TV, I would yell, “Look at those thugs!”
(My friend does not like distractions when watching the news…but I made my point).
G
@MikeJ:
evidence wise, there’s the prior consistent statement of reporting it to JoPa…
then the one to the grand jury.
pete mack
I’m dyed in the wool liberal and I am gobsmacked: Joe Pa covered for a child rapist caught in the act for more than a decade? Say it ain’t so, Joe!
Odie Hugh Manatee
@DougJ:
No it isn’t, he’s the Defender of the Faith. We’re supposed to shut up and do what he says because he knows best. Ignore the information out there, stop talking about it because nothing is true until ol’ Burnsy sez so.
He’ll let us know when it’s ok to comment and I’m sure he will tell us when we are overstepping our boundaries. Until then, carry on as usual.
IOW, ignore him.
IronyAbounds
Question: On a local sports message board site I equated what Paterno did with what Pope Benedict did in covering up molestation among priests. The posts had been almost unanimously condemning Joe Pa and yet my post got people all upset and it was deleted. I really don’t think there is a difference. I side with Sully on this one. I think the Pope was an accessory to child rape. Just because he’s the Pope doesn’t mean squat. Am I wrong?
Joey Maloney
@Rick:
Sounds better in the original Greek.
The frustrated social scientist in me wants to indulge in some idle speculation about the relative dysfunction of ancient Greek versus modern American society and sexual psychology, but the chef in me has to cook a pancake brunch in a little bit and he doesn’t have time to have his whole day swallowed in an internet flame war.
G
@Mnemosyne:
McQueary basically did keep his mouth shut for a decade, until subpoenaed to a grand jury. He was content to stay in the same employers office, watching the same child rapist have keys and a parking space there for a decade, until presumably interviewed by cops and called under oath to a grand jury.
I see him as a “hero” of last resort, if he had the option of continuing getting along by going along, a decade of his actions say he would.
Villago Delenda Est
This marvelous discussion of what McQueary did or did not see is pretty nonsensical given that we’ve pretty much solidly established that Sandusky did SOMETHING to cause him to fall from grace, and that reporting that is required BY LAW was not done to follow up on it.
So, we’ve got problems right here, right now, without debating if McQueary just created this story out of whole cloth (which seems to be the position of Tractarian) for some unknown reason like that McQueary needs some attention, any attention, or something…
Back to the nominal subject at hand, for all the bullshit that “conservatives” see man as flawed, and “liberals” see man as “perfectable”, the “conservatives” are the ones most shocked by a scandal like this, to the point of denying it ever happened, and furthermore seem to believe that the “free market” can run all by itself without any human intervention whatsoever because shut up that’s why.
The “liberals” are the ones who see the need for checks, balances, and regulations to keep the system operating properly, because if given a chance, some people will abuse any loophole they find or use power imbalances to inflict pain or cover up the harmful actions of others favored by those in power.
Gwangung
@Tractarian: Absolutely not.
You’re astonishingly ignorant of the behavior of abuse victims however. And you made an intellectually I sulking argument to this blog.
That’s a discredit to your profession.
Mnemosyne
@G:
Joe Paterno knew in 1998 that Sandusky was a child molester, and yet he let Sandusky continue working with children on the Penn State campus. When McQueary came to Paterno in 2004 and said he had seen Sandusky raping a child, Paterno took Sandusky’s key to the locker room away and let him keep using Penn State facilities until 2009.
At least McQueary told the truth to the grand jury. It’s not much, but it’s still more than pretty much every other person in authority at Penn State managed to do.
Comrade Luke
Everyone else can have fun being Internet Perry Mason, but this is what it boils down to, so far at least.
Pamoya
@Tractarian:
Vile is really the only word for this victim-blaming statement. Adult victims of rape often do not report. This dynamic is even worse for child sex abuse. Unfortunately one common reaction for parents or adults who hear that someone they trust or respect has sexually abused a child is to 1) not believe that child 2) be more upset about the way their lives will change or that the perpetrator will get in trouble. Child victims themselves sometimes don’t want the perpetrator to get in trouble. They often blame themselves. They may believe they are the only one going through this, and may not be able to recognize that there could be other victims.
Child victims of sex abuse are also children, duh, without the same brain development and decision-making ability as adults. You turning this into “child victims of sex abuse who don’t report are just gold-diggers who want to sell their bodies for presents” (my translation of your statement) is completely disgusting. I can’t believe I have to type any of this.
Also, my response to the “innocent until proven guilty” stuff that seems to come up here a lot is that this isn’t a court of law. Why do we have the concept of “innocent until proven guilty?” Because in a court, the government is taking someone’s life or liberty away, and with those stakes we want to bend over backwards to make sure only actually guilty people are convicted. This means that a lot of people who are in fact guilty of crimes get away with it because it can’t be proven to that degree (at least in theory–I recognize that our criminal system doesn’t always handle the balance properly).
In conversations with friends or on blogs, I really don’t think we need to be so cautious. It is important for society to openly discuss and express revulsion with these kinds of crimes which have historically been covered up. If the perpetrator were sued civilly for raping a child, the plaintiff would only have to prove it by a preponderance of the evidence. This could wrongly ruin the defendant’s reputation if they lost the judgment when they were actually innocent, but since reputation isn’t as big of a deal, we consider that a fair trade-off. I am completely comfortable with a preponderance of the evidence standard for blogs and conversation.
IronyAbounds
@catclub: As a matter of fact one of the guys in charge of the cover up of some of the molestations by priests is now His Holiness, the Pope. Large institutions in general, and large religious institutions in particular get away with this crap because they are powerful and have the following of large number of people who are invested, both financially and emotionally in the institutions. Tribalism running rampant.
Mnemosyne
Evening news here in Los Angeles says that McQueary will not be coaching on Saturday because of death threats.
West of the Cascades
@Pamoya:
And Sandusky’s victims will be completely comfortable with that same standard of proof in their civil suits against him, Penn State, Spanier, Paterno, etc. …
cue someone screeching that we haven’t heard the other side’s evidence yet, we don’t know the whole story, rush to judgment! electronic lynching! VICTORY! or something equally incomprehensible.
West of the Cascades
@IronyAbounds: I think that one of the phenomena at work in this Penn State case is that, unlike larger institutional scandals like the Catholic Church and Boy Scouts, Penn State is a large but manageable, state-run institution … and therefore it is easier (and there can be governmental pressure bought to bear) to make quick and drastic actions when it crosses a tipping point.
The nature of Penn State and its football program let it cover up alleged atrocities in 1998, 2000 (the janitor’s testimony), and worst in 2002. But with the arrest of Sandusky and five days of tin-eared responses, you suddenly had a volcanic intersection between allegations of at least a decade of child rape and the Most Storied College Football Program In The Nation, with its victory through honor and other self-righteous spewings.
Add to that Paterno’s haughty and cavalier attitude towards the school (l’ ecole, c’est moi), and an obvious need for damage control, and major firings happened in a very short amount of time.
Now time will tell whether Penn State can reform its football program, and its administrative culture, so that nothing like this ever happens again. If so it might cause a crack in the institutional culture of college football and academia in general that lets in an ethic of not tolerating child abuse (and maybe then by extension abuse and bullying of adults). And something good might eventually come of this atrocious situation. I think a state-run college that had a great reputation that it would like to get back may be the best conceivable candidate for such reforms.
bin Lurkin'
@Tractarian:
What color is the sky on your planet because you sure ain’t on this one?
I was molested (heartily groped) by an older male “family friend” when I was 13 or so (never been good with dates) and I never mentioned it to anyone at all until at least 25 years later.
Angela, an abuse counselor who posts here, told us that the average abuse victim tell six adults before they are believed. From my own experience there are probably a lot of them that never tell anyone until much later if ever.
Onward.
I’m not even mildly surprised at what happened at Pederast State, I’m automatically distrustful of powerful and charismatic people in general, it’s a gut reaction to that sort of person and I’ve had my negative feelings about such people demonstrated to be correct enough times that I just go with it now.
And yes, for all you Obots, that means I don’t trust Obama either, I know for an absolute fact that he’s a blatantly duplicitous hypocrite on one issue that I care about, why would I believe him on others?
Before you start, yes Obama’s better than any and every Republican but that bar is so low you’d need a Deepwater Horizon drill rig to even find find the damn thing.
goblue72
We Are. Rape State!
MoeLarryAndJesus
catclub quoted and wrote:
Just the other day the Vatican threw a big child-rape 80th birthday party for former Massachusetts child-rape enabling Cardinal Bernard Law. No reports on whether 8 year olds were served up as appetizers, but would anyone really be surprised?
moe99
The timeline of the actions by Sandusky and Penn State officials.
A female athlete who defended Univ. of Colorado in 2004 has regrets.
Republican Governor of PA actually looks good in this.
John Scalzi says it quite well.
Did Sandusky provide minors to Penn State donors?
I learned today from a friend of mine, an attorney and international expert in mental health law the following:
1. While there are almost always exceptions, the scar [of the sexual abuse] is there forever. Few can ever “overcome” it (I hate that word in this context, but u know what I mean)
2. A statistically significant number of those so abused become abusers themselves. Not all do; not all abusers were abused. But the correlation is robust.
3. Just as in the case of heterosexual rape, the impact is much more lasting and much more calamatous if the perp is family member or trusted figure. There is incontravertable evidence, by way of comparison, that there is a valid/reliable statistical correlation btwn the sexual abuse of women by relatives/trusted figures and the likelihood that that woman will later become so mentally ill that hospitalization is required (whereas there is no evidence that the type of sexual assault that everyone fears the most [the 7-11 parking lot at midnite] has any correlation w long lasting psychiatric disability.
TenguPhule
That you saw someone raping a 10 year old in the shower that time and have completely forgotten it today?
-Golf Clap-
TenguPhule
Don’t know much about law enforcement, do you?
It shows.
pluege
Some of you seem to think I am saying conservatives condone this or deny that it happened. I am saying that they do not condone it or deny it, merely that they are more surprised by it.
by turning perpetrators (including those like paterno complicit in heinous crimes) into victims, conservatives do in fact condone such behavior. You see this also unfolding in the defense of cain – turning the perpetrator into a victim.
Tyro
I actually have some sympathy for him. 27 years old, witnesses something that if he does the right thing, it wrecks his employer and his career, and if he does the wrong thing, same outcome, only delayed, and much worse.
I have another theory about this: namely that we are completely unprepared about how to deal with these circumstances of catching someone in a criminal act like this. We aren’t trained to “call the police.” Instead he went in search of the first person he could tell about it and that person covered it up.
We don’t know how to react to danger– our first conscious instinct is to react how we do to “normal” situations.
kay
@burnspbesq:
I think you’re way off base, burns, but it’s a fair question. I know a lot about the daycare-satanic-abuse-coached-children cases because this is my area of practice. Everyone in this area knows those cases, because they’re so important as an object lesson in how everyone involved with kids can go so far astray, even if they’re well-intentioned.
First, as a practical matter, the victims here are (now) young adults. The “victims” in those cases were children as young as 3. That makes a huge difference as far as how reliable they are. The truth is, little kids can be coached. It happened again and again and again in the day care cases. Little kids have a sort of elastic connection to reality, and they rely on adults to tell them what is real.
Second, there’s no “theory” here. In the day care cases, children’s advocates started with a theory (no one believes children and that’s wrong!) and prosecutors started with a theory (there are rampant ritual abuse practices in this country!).
In my opinion, it was also Left/Right. The children’s advocates were (generally) arguing from a liberal position and the prosecutors were (generally) arguing from a conservative position. It was sort of a perfect storm of insanity, and both sides really did do it.
The media played a huge role. At that time, there was sort of a general anxiety about working women and day care. Women were feeling guilty (and being made to feel guilty) because they weren’t home with kids, and media were more than happy to fuel that guilt and fear. “The horrors of day care” was just a very popular theme.
The day care cases really had everything. Childrens’ advocates and prosecutors with a pre-existing agenda that blinded them to facts and reason (two different agendas, but they aligned), guilt and fear about putting kids in day care, and a weird religious angle, where everyone was suddenly a devil worshiper.
I could go on and on, there was also herd factor in play, where the parents of the (alleged) victims were talking to each other and fueling each others fear and imaginations. One parent would invent a new fact, and all the parents would then adopt that as part of their narrative. There were “key” parents, certain strong-willed, dominant people who “led” the others down a road of absolute insanity.
There’s just nothing like that here, that I can see. They have reliable (now-adult) victims who haven’t been coached, and no one involved seems to have an agenda.
There are false accusations of child abuse. It’s just a fact. They don’t really originate with children (victims) though, if you trace all the way back.
They come from adults with agendas, or egos, or righteous rage.
El Cid
@kay: Some of the allegations included stuff about satanic rituals, people flying through the air, and a huge range of other things ranging from the ridiculous to the physically impossible.
Repeated allegations and court statements by adults of observing one man sexually assaulting children is not quite in the same zip code as children saying that there were mass public orgies and witches flying in hot air balloons.
It’s a really bizarre comparison.
El Cid
@Cacti:
Of course, for the first two there are often photographers and videographers and celebrations and gift-giving. For the third, I think there’s a lot less of that.
I say “I think”, because each of these scandals go to levels even I, who thought myself a supreme cynic, never imagined.
kay
@El Cid:
I think so too, I think it’s way off base, but I always address it because it happened.
I don’t think anyone should forget how nuts we can get about children, when we put all our stuff on them. Our guilt. Our issues with religion. Our righteous rage that sometimes rolls right over them, and gets a life of its own. The kids were left so far behind in the day care cases it was like they no longer existed. Everyone lost the thread, missed the point, made it all about them. And everyone, to this day, insists they were well-intentioned.
a
I post here many times, but have changed my fake name to write this. I was molested when I was 5 or six yrs old, repeatedly. I remember it clearly. I have never told the details to anyone. I finally started to tell my 75 yr old mother, but she ignored it (I don’t know if she heard me or could not handle it). I dropped the subject.
Your comment is so ignorant, so foul and offensive, you have no clue. I did not tell, because I was afraid my parents would think I had done something terrible, and this happened in an era where no one talked about sex at all at any time so I had no idea that what was happening was wrong. It is very very hard for a child to tell on an adult. I always thought it was my fault, and even when I figured out it was not I still did not talk about it and never will.
FFrank
The only thing I have heard about why McQueary is still on, and I don’t have the legal chops to know it is true or not. Is that McQueary if fired, right now has the legal recourse to sue Penn State using the Whistleblower Law. That doesn’t mean he won’t be fired sometime in the future after things have died down.
Barry
@mclaren: “I guess what surprises me is…why boys? You’d think girls, wouldn’t you? Jocks? College athletes? I would’ve expected girls…”
My assumption would be that if I were punched one time for each (hetero, age 18+) rape that a given large football team commits each year, I’d be in the hospital.
Barry
@burnspbesq: “You can choose to believe whatever the fuck you choose to believe. ”
Ooh, you used the f-word. You must be right.
stinkwrinkle
I don’t think anyone’s looked at this from Paterno’s viewpoint. First of all, the child rape isn’t the problem; the problem is his status as a well-paid-to-do-nothing demigod is at risk. Stopping the child rape is like putting out the match that started a forest fire, it does nothing to fix the problem.
Secondly, Paterno is an old-school Catholic. Secretly, he’s thinking: “When I got buttraped as a kid, I was out shoveling snow! And I had to walk home barefoot! Uphill, for miles! These kids today get buttraped in a nice warm shower, and then they get a Happy Meal and go to watch a football game! And I’m supposed to be OUTRAGED!”
So you see? It all makes sense for Joe Pa.
Ken B.
The liberal / conservative breakdown is wrong. For some football represents everything that is good – for example Hank Hill wanting Bobby to play.
For liberals it would be like leaning that the folks at the organic farm had slave labor or some such.
In each case there is a belief that the group shares your values. To learn this way that they do not is a shock.
Barry
@MikeJ:
@burnspbesq:
” Thought experiment: tell us exactly what you were doing at 11:52 p.m. Eastern time on November 10, 2000. See my point?”
“Tell us exactly what was going on when you saw a ten year old boy being raped.
If such an even doesn’t stand out in your memory you’re a pretty sick person.”
I’m taking his implication as being honest – that if he witnessed such an event, he wouldn’t remember it, because he’s the sort of person who wouldn’t.
Barry
@burnspbesq: “Let’s wait and see what the jury thinks McQueary saw after a good defense attorney gets done cross-examining him”
I’ll bet that the jury will still believe it.
Barry
@burnspbesq: “You sure are an idiot, aren’t you.”
Pot, kettle, black.
Barry
@Tractarian:
“Why didn’t the victims report this?.”
IIRC, the mother of one of the victims did confront Sandusky.
Considering what these guys covered up, the odds are in favor of some of the victims/parents did, and were ignored. Please note that the Penn State police seemed to be rather absent from this, it’s likely that some reports were, ah, not taken.
Also, I’d like to remind you of a scandal which afflicted, and continues to afflict, a certain large, very old organization, where many victims didn’t report, and many reports were made to go away.
EIGRP
@MikeJ: Your logic is off.
If OJ Simpson murdered his wife, he’s a murderer. The contrapositive (which is guaranteed to be true) would be: If OJ Simpson is not a murderer, he did not murder his wife.
The “therefore his wife was not murdered” is faulty logic.
Eric
Scribe9
I think it’s less conservative/liberal than establishment/non-establishment. “Centrist” establishmentarians operate at all times under the belief that the men (mostly men) who run the institutions who run the country (including big time football programs) are univerally public-spirited, fair-minded individuals who may make the occasional mistake and sometimes disagree among themselves but in general, always have the best interests of the public as their goal.
Those of us on the outside of the inside tend be more familiar with the realities of human nature are therefore less surprised when the old axiom “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely” turns out to be true for about the eighty-billionth time.
The establishment view is that power, even absolute power, does not corrupt at all. It is merely a tool employed by good men to make the world a better place.
Barry
@Tractarian: “A jury might think, if he really saw what he says he saw, he would have called the police, not his coach. And they just might be right.”
You’ve *got* to be a corporate lawyer. I can just see aiding in a coverup, and letting a potential whistleblower know the consequence of speaking up, and later using that against them.
Barry
@Gin & Tonic:
“At least two did. As a direct result of one of them, and a persistent mother, we are where we are.”
Thanks. I figure that he was a liar.
Barry
@Jebediah: “So, what is your theory, then? Why did he make up a story about seeing a guy (that many knew or suspected was a kid-diddler) molesting a kid? His life (especially now) would have been a hell of a lot easier if he had never seen anything, after all.”
Yes. Tractarian’s theory is that McQueary made up a story which would have destroyed his career if wrong. And by ‘destroyed his career’, I mean that he couldn’t get a part-time job judging pick-up football games, he’d be so in the sh*t.
Barry
@Odie Hugh Manatee: “No it isn’t, he’s the Defender of the Faith. We’re supposed to shut up and do what he says because he knows best. Ignore the information out there, stop talking about it because nothing is true until ol’ Burnsy sez so.”
He reminds me of a commenter by the nome de plume ‘sd’ on another blog, who was an actual Crusader in defense of another organization, concerning similar scandals. Very fanatical.
Barry
@TenguPhule: “Don’t know much about law enforcement, do you?
It shows.”
Oh, I bet that he does. He probably knows very well when and where the police and prosecutors like to turn a blind eye, and uses that knowledge.
Angela
@moe99: Jan Hindman, who was a national expert on sexual abuse, her Just Before Dawn, addresses some of the realities of abuse and some of the mythology which is still very prevalent amongst professionals. “It is not enough to shed tears for those who suffer the tragedy of sexual abuse, nor will much be accomplished nurturing hatred and devising punishments for those who sexually abuse. Only by sharing knowledge, providing training, exchanging ideas, and challenging traditional beliefs and biases can we respond effectively to sexual victimization.
Jan Hindman”
Seebach
@burnspbesq: Tell me exactly what you were doing at 11 AM on September 11, 2001. Hard to remember, isn’t it?
jake the snake
@Hawes:
I am reminded of an saying we used to throw around jokingly in our family. “I love humanity, it’s people I can’t stand.”
I do think that a large segment of people live by th inverse, “I like people, it’s hunmanity I can’st stand.
Unsympathetic
The reason Bobo and McArgle are so shocked is because this is a Discovery Of A Flaw in one of them! And up to this point, The One-Percent have portrayed themselves as Doing God’s Work. And they can’t spin this no matter how hard they try. Someone who earns more than $1M/year is inextricably morally flawed? *Cue world imploding around them*
Mike G
Conservatives skew toward authoritarianism and idolatry. They always seem to be needing some Mythological Big Daddy to worship who-can-do-no-wrong-so-shove-your-dirty-commie-evidence, whether it’s Republican Jesus, the Founding Fathers, Ronald Reagan, 1% Job Creators or Joe Paterno.
My Truth Hurts
Conservatives live in a fantasy world. No further explanation needed.
Capri
@burnspbesq:
Second thought experiment – Tell me exactly what you were doing when you heard that the World Trade Center was hit or when the Challenger exploded, or that JFK was shot, over 40 years ago.
Nothing like that happened on July 12, 1986 at 5:36 pm, but I still remember it vividly. It’s the time my first child was born.
To make the case that it can’t be expected for someone to remember the time and place they witnessed someone raping a child implies that this a common place event that wouldn’t stand out in that person’s mind. I’m not sure a lawyer really wants to go there.
opie jeanne
There is a nearly identical sickening story about the Boston Red Sox:
http://www.thepostgame.com/features/201111/another-era-and-another-sport-sex-abuse-scandal-still-inflicting-pain-today
Read the whole story. Fitzpatrick wasn’t a player, nor was he a coach or in management. He was a minor cog in their company. Fitzpatrick was seen raping a 10-year-old boy and the observer told management, who did nothing. Players warned kids to stay away from Fitzpatrick, but witness(es) never reported him to the police. The owners are especially to blame, but members of the team, members of management, all are to blame for allowing this to go on for so long.
Richard W. Crews
To DJ @ #19 about my #15 : I was being down on you for politicizing any expectations of child depravity. People are people way beyond political affiliation in many areas ( NOT facts or knowledge, but sex and drinks, etc may be hard to get stats on) but I digress … what we all need to do is be slow to politicize that kind of ugly. Having a pre-setup feeling towards the people by party can discolor attempts at conversation in other areas.
This is hard but an analogy might be that it is best to keep a benevolent feeling towards charities, or friends, when things go poorly concerning them. It’s better to be pure of mind, even a certain cultivated social naivity than become cynical.
I also resist beleiving almost all conspiracies or myths (except maybe Bigfoot). It’s cleaner of mind to not search and suspect so much. I see all the ugliness that is all too real without any conspiracies.
Lojasmo
@burnspbesq:
If I was in a shower room watching a grown man anally rape a ten year old child, that shit would be indelibly burned in my memory.
Unless I am a monster, which I am not
ETA: evidently, lawyers manage to write some of the stupidest bullshit on the Internet.
.
mclaren
@burnspbesq:
There’s a slight difference twixt the McMartin preschool molestation case and this one. The testimony by the children included allegations that the children “were taken to a secret underground chamber beneath the preschool” where “a giraffe and a zebra were sacrificed in satan rites.” No giraffe or zebra were ever found. No underground chamber beneath the preschool existed.
By contrast, the allegation involved here apparently comes from an adult eyewitness to an adult having anal sex with a 10-year-old child.
No need to allege that burnspbesq be shot: he’ll choke to death on the foot he sticks in his mouth soon enough.
mclaren
@Capri:
This implies that lawyers have that thing known as a “conscience.” I believe if you mention that word to a lawyer in America, the response will be “Your words sound strange to me, friend — what is this `conscience’ you speak of?”