The Next Middle East Disaster

When we block this:

The Palestinian president announced Friday that he would seek recognition of a Palestinian state at the Security Council of the United Nations next week, a move strongly opposed by Israel and the United States and adding significant tension to one of the most intractable conflicts in the Middle East.

***

The United States has said it would use its veto power at the Security Council to stop any Palestinian statehood bid, adhering to the American-Israeli view that the only way to achieve peace is through direct talks between the Palestinian Authority and Israel. Each side maintains that the other presents the obstacles to negotiations.

A veto of the Palestinian bid for membership will serve as another blow to American credibility, as the Obama administration tries to place itself on the side of protesters across the Arab world seeking freedom, justice and a notion of dignity. For many in the region, the plight of Palestinians, under more than four decades of occupation, encapsulates those ideals.

Despite the fact that we continue to do Israel’s bidding to the detriment of our own international standing, Dan Senor will pen more commentary about the grievous insults Obama has made towards Israel, and Ed Koch will continue to campaign for wingnuts because Obama hates Jews.

Why aren’t we allowed to treat Israel like every other nation in the world and do what is in our best interest, not theirs?

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190 replies
  1. 1
    OzoneR says:

    Why aren’t we allowed to treat Israel like every other nation in the world and do what is in our best interest, not theirs?

    Jews, Republicans want them, Democrats need them, they’ve now shown themselves to be swing votes.

  2. 2
    cleek says:

    Why aren’t we allowed to treat Israel like every other nation in the world and do what is in our best interest, not theirs?

    because of anti-Semitic comments like that. that’s why.

  3. 3
    earl in CA says:

    because as soon as the terrorists set off some remotely significant dirty-bomb in israel, the neocons get to justify all the nukes they’ve been stashing over there and get their petty justification for destroying the region entirely.

  4. 4
    chopper says:

    The United States has said it would use its veto power at the Security Council to stop any Palestinian statehood bid, adhering to the American-Israeli view that the only way to achieve peace is through direct talks between the Palestinian Authority and Israel that Israel will make sure never go anywhere.

    fixed. not that UN recognition is a panacea, but let’s be honest here, ‘talks’ are nothing now. bibi has to be dragged to them kicking and screaming and nothing ever comes of them.

  5. 5
    Mino says:

    There is no way we can prevent them fom asking and getting permission to be seated in the General Assembly. I’m sure that’s the next move after we block them in the Security Council. What then?

  6. 6
    j low says:

    @OzoneR: They are only swing voters (on a national level) when you count right wing Christians who need a Jewish state in the Middle East for End of Times purposes. Otherwise they are pretty much Dem.

  7. 7
    El Tiburon says:

    Why aren’t we allowed to treat Israel like every other nation in the world and do what is in our best interest, not theirs?

    Money money money money, MONEY
    Money money money money, MONEY
    Money money money money, MONEY
    Money money money money, MONEY
    Money money money money, MONEY
    Money money money money, MONEY

    Some people got to have it
    Hey, Hey, Hey – some people really need it

    Hey, listen to me, y’all do thangs, do thangs, do thangs – bad thangs with it
    Well, you wanna do thangs, do thangs, do thangs – good thangs with it – yeah

    Un Huh, talkin’ bout cash money, money

    Talkin’ bout cash money – dollar bills y’all – come on, now

    Yeah, yeah
    Yeah, yeah

    For the love of money
    People will steal from their mother

    For the love of money
    People will rob their own brother

    For the love of money
    People can’t even walk the streets
    Because they’ll never know who in the world they’re gonna beat
    For that mean, oh mean, mean green

    Almighty Dollar!

    Cash Money

    For the love of money
    People will lie, rob, they will cheat

    For the love of money
    People don’t care who they hurt or beat

    For the love of money
    A woman will sell her precious body

    For a small piece of paper it carries a lot of weight
    Oh, that mean, mean, mean, mean, mean green

    Almighty Dollar!

    Talkin’ bout, talkin’ bout – cash

    I know that money is the root of all evil
    Do funny things to some people

    Give me a nickel, brother can you spare a dime
    Money can drive some people out of their minds

    For the love of money
    No good, no good, no good

    For the love of money
    Don’t sell ya soul for the money – no, no

    For the love of money
    Lay down, lay down – women will

    Money is the root of all evil
    Do funny things to some people

    Give me a nickel, brother can you spare a dime
    Money can drive some people out of their minds

    For the love of money
    Got to have it – I really need it

    For the love of money
    Give it up, give it up, give it up – yeah

    For the love of money
    Got to have it – some people really need it

    For the love of money
    Give me, give me, give me – cash money

    For the love of money
    I need – I need

    For the love of money
    Keep me, keep me, keep me – happy

    For the love of money
    For the love of money
    How many days have I heard ya say

    For the love of money
    Don’t let it, don’t let it – don’t let money rule ya

    For the love of money
    How many days have I heard ya say

    For the love of money
    Don’t let it, don’t let it – don’t let it, don’t let money fool you, no

    For the love of money
    Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

    For the love of money
    Got to have it – I really need it

    Don’t do it – don’t do it

    Brother – save ya soul – save ya soul – don’t sell it
    For that mean, mean, mean, mean green

    People, don’t let money, don’t let money change you

    Almighty Dollar!

    I keep ah tellin’ you
    People, don’t let money, don’t let money change you

    Almighty Dollar!

    Um, ’cause it’ll keep on changing – yeah- changing up your mind

    It’ll keep on – it’ll keep on – changing – yeah – changing up your mind

    I’m tellin’ y’all
    People, don’t let money, don’t let money change you

    Almighty Dollar!

    I keep ah tellin’ y’all
    People, don’t let money, don’t let money change you

    Almighty Dollar!

    Yeah – ’cause it’ll keep on changing – yeah – changing up your mind

    It’ll keep on changing – yeah – changing up your mind

    I’m tellin’ y’all
    People, don’t let money, don’t let money change you

    Almighty Dollar!

  8. 8

    I’m not sure that letting the resolution pass would do us or the Palestinians any favors either.

    For starters, I can imagine the response of the Palestinian people to be another uprising demanding withdraw, control of trade routes, and travel centers.

    And I imagine the Israeli government response would be about as grim as last time.

    Which then puts us in the position of trying to explain exactly why we intervened in Libya when it looked rebel factions were going to be killed, and we’re turning a blind eye to Israel’s conduct against a legitimate government.

    I think it would be one of those feel good moves we do, but unless we’re prepared to back it up, things won’t turn out well.

    And fuck it, I’m just not ready to go into the Middle East again for another bombing run.

    Now, if we just said, we’re not getting involved, and if you escalate this, then you’re on your own to deal with the fallout, okay. But I’m pretty sure that course of action is as likely as me developing the ability to crap gold bars.

  9. 9
    earl in CA says:

    @cleek: can you explain how that statement is anti-semitic? or are you being sarcastic?

  10. 10
    Mino says:

    @chopper: I’m pretty sure any honest historian would conclude that Bibi is unilaterally responsible for breaking the Oslo accords.

  11. 11
    Dave says:

    Why aren’t we allowed to treat Israel like every other nation in the world and do what is in our best interest, not theirs?

    Freedom?

  12. 12
    ant says:

    ho boy.

    A I/P post.

    What’s the over/under on this one?

  13. 13
    Samara Morgan says:

    That is interesting.
    There was a lot of speculation that the Palis would go to the general membership for the unblockable vote.
    I wonder if the US will drop the veto now.
    We are under pressure from the Sauds and Turks, and we are about to become irrelevent in the ME when we get kicked out of Iraq and are forced to leave A-stan.
    All the dictators we propped are dropping like flies, and if the Sauds dont act for the Palis they will lose ground to Iran.

    Has Obama reiterated that the US will veto since the Palestinian announcement?

  14. 14
    OzoneR says:

    @Mino:

    I’m sure that’s the next move after we block them in the Security Council. What then?

    then at least we vetoed.

    I suspect we’re trying to kill the GA vote too, by getting more than 1/3 against.

  15. 15
    OzoneR says:

    @j low:

    They are only swing voters (on a national level) when you count right wing Christians who need a Jewish state in the Middle East for End of Times purposes. Otherwise they are pretty much Dem.

    NY9 and Gallup say differently.

  16. 16
    MikeJ says:

    @Comrade Dread: That’s a lot of blog real estate to use on the international Jewish banking conspiracy.

  17. 17
    batgirl says:

    @OzoneR: What swing vote? Jews vote overwhelmingly Democratic: Jewish Vote in Presidential Elections

    A bunch of ultra-Orthodox Jews in a special election in a swing district doesn’t change that.

    ETA: Didn’t mean swing district. Don’t know why I typed that.

  18. 18
    Zifnab says:

    Why aren’t we allowed to treat Israel like every other nation in the world and do what is in our best interest, not theirs?

    Israel is a source of tension in the Middle East, and tension sells military hardware. So we hand out a bunch of free money to countries like Israel and Saudi Arabia. They buy a bunch of weapons from our nation’s arms manufacturers. Then the arms manufacturers pick our politicians for us.

    Everybody* wins!

    *who matters

  19. 19
    lacp says:

    Because shut up, that’s why. Also too, anti-semitic.

  20. 20
    KG says:

    Why aren’t we allowed to treat Israel like every other nation in the world and do what is in our best interest, not theirs?

    History, mostly, particularly what happened in the late 1930s and early 1940s in Europe.

    I remember a line from an episode of The West Wing, where the British Ambassador (is there any better job in the history of government than being the US Ambassador to the UK or the British Ambassador to the US?) mentioned that every nation has it’s own original sin. In the US it was slavery, in the UK he was saying Northern Ireland.

    I think there’s some sort of truth to that statement. In Israel it’s Gaza and the West Bank. And we feel largely responsible of Israel’s original sin because we were instrumental in the creation of the country. But like much of our political thinking/discourse, it’s frozen in time.

  21. 21
    Tom Levenson says:

    @MikeJ: +1

  22. 22
    cleek says:

    @earl in CA:

    can you explain how that statement is anti-semitic?

    no, probably not.

  23. 23

    @MikeJ: Yea! I drew my first anti-semitic charge on a left-leaning web side.

    I can cross that off my nonsensical ad hominem checklist.

  24. 24
    OzoneR says:

    @batgirl:

    What swing vote? Jews vote overwhelmingly Democratic:

    when Democrats are kissing Israel’s ass they do, what happens when they stop?

  25. 25
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @batgirl:

    A bunch of ultra-Orthodox Jews in a special election in a swing district doesn’t change that.

    where voter turn-out was 19%
    ETA: and in which the Dem candidate didn’t live in the fucking district, which I only heard from The Daily Show, and which takes my fucking breath away.

  26. 26
    KG says:

    @batgirl: NY9 is not a swing district, it’s 3:1 D. They got a lot of Orthodox Jewish votes because of gay marriage, apparently. And because Dems were pissed that Republicans were blocking Obama’s plans, so they voted for a Republican to show Obama that they aren’t happy, or something.

  27. 27
    FlipYrWhig says:

    I support Palestinian statehood, and wish the US would stop blocking it. I have no illusions that it will happen, alas.

  28. 28
    OzoneR says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    where voter turn-out was 19%

    For the record, that 19% was more than 60% of the 2010 turnout and about 45% of 2008! turnout.

    This district has a long history of low turnout.

  29. 29
    MTiffany says:

    When the FSM wishes to punish us, His Starchiness answers our prayers. The US should abstain in the Security Council. Give the Palestinians their statehood; and when that does not magically solve all of their problems, we will be in a better position to tell them that the real source of most of their problems can be found by looking into the nearest mirror.

    The concomitant downfall of the Netanyahu (nasty little bigot) government would just be well-deserved icing on the cake.

  30. 30
    Craig says:

    @OzoneR: So your thinking is that Jews, on the whole, are single-issue voters who are mostly concerned with how politicians interact with Israel, and will turn en masse against anyone who doesn’t toe the Likud line. Is that an accurate summation?

  31. 31
    Mino says:

    @Zifnab: If we didn’t manufacture weapons, would we have any foreign trade?

  32. 32
    Loneoak says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Shut up. It’s great news for McCain. The Prevailing Narrative dictates PANIC.

  33. 33
    OzoneR says:

    @KG:

    They got a lot of Orthodox Jewish votes because of gay marriage, apparently.

    The gay marriage question is a little complicated in that Turner doesn’t exactly OPPOSE it publicly.

    David Weprin, an Orthodox Jew, told Orthodox Jews that he voted for gay marriage because being an Orthodox Jew made him; equal rights for all and all that. Orthodox Jews were offended he said that.

    If Weprin had been a Catholic, it would have made that much of a different to the Orthodox Jews.

  34. 34
    batgirl says:

    @KG: I know that, see my edit. Point still stands.

  35. 35
    Mino says:

    @MTiffany: Man, oh, man. Could Obama repay for all the shit Bibi’s handed out with that move. Nah, he’s too nice.

  36. 36
    Tony J says:

    Maybe because the last US President to treat Israel like any other nation and pressure them into doing something that was in America’s (percieved) interests lost the next election, even though he’d just won a war.

    In DC Village conventional wisdom, the lesson to be taken from this is pretty simple, and simplistic. Pushing Israel to do anything it doesn’t want to do is the newest Third Rail of American politics, and the Village will spare no effort in destroying anyone foolish enough to go there.

  37. 37
    DS says:

    @Samara Morgan: What is a “Pali”? Is that like the Near Eastern version of a “Paki”?

    Here is what I know: Netanyahu opposes a UDI by the Palestinians. He also opposes a one-state solution, which is what would happen if the Palestinians dropped their demand for an independent state and full civil and political rights from Israel. The only thing he does not oppose apparently is a Palestinian state with no army, no control over their own airspace, no control over their borders, no control over their water, etc. It’s time for people to just let them deal with the repercussions of their actions like any other country on earth. Oppose the UDI, don’t oppose it, I don’t give a fuck. But it is time that Israel dealt with the repercussions of their policy like every other sovereign nation in the world.

  38. 38
    Paul in KY says:

    @KG: If we feel responsible for Israel’s ‘original sin’, we have a strange way of showing it.

  39. 39
    Dennis SGMM says:

    I heard our Secretary of State on the radio this morning. She was calling on the Palestinians to drop their bid for statehood in the U.N. and get back to the negotiating table with Israel. That struck me as a very stupid statement by someone who once had presidential ambitions. Why doesn’t Obama get back to the negotiating table with Republicans? I mean, the negotiating table is where everything can be solved no matter how intransigent and batshit crazy one party may be, right?

    The U.S. will veto the Palestinians’ bid for statehood and a few thousand more people around the world will give up on us being an honest broker in any dispute. That’s small price to pay for enabling the Israelis to turn us into a magnet for any Muslim with a grudge.

  40. 40
    The Dangerman says:

    Why aren’t we allowed to treat Israel like every other nation in the world and do what is in our best interest, not theirs?

    How many EV’s does Florida have?

  41. 41
    Paul in KY says:

    @MTiffany: I do feel the Palestinians, over the years, have been especially terrible about the PR aspects of their quest.

  42. 42
    catclub says:

    @j low: 75% and up in favor of democrats, year after year, is a definition of swing voters? wow.

  43. 43
    singfoom says:

    @earl in CA: He’s being snarky. Any suggestion by a US politician or talking head that Israel is doing anything wrong vis-a-vis the Palestinians is immediately accused of being anti-semitic.

  44. 44
    Anoniminous says:

    The most numerous pro-Israel voting block are the Fundamentalist Christians (aka, Tea Baggers) whose mythology requires Israel to exist so their Magic Pal can descend from on High, kill 99% of Israelis, and then “cast” their souls into Hell fire, for all eternity, for not believing in their Magic Pal.

    But if you question the morality of Israelis running an open air prison (Gaza Strip) you’re the anti-Semite.

  45. 45
    lacp says:

    Yes, negotiations have worked so well to date: the Palestinian Authority has managed to halt rocket attacks from the West Bank and in return they’ve gotten…more settlements. Win-win!

    And a UN resolution recognizing a Palestinian state is obviously the wrong course. Unlike, say, UN Resolution 181.

  46. 46
    singfoom says:

    The austerity zealots want to stop wasting money? How about we stop giving 3 billion a year in military assistance to the most advanced and highly trained army in the region of the Middle East?

  47. 47
    catclub says:

    @OzoneR: “when Democrats are kissing Israel’s ass they do, what happens when they stop?”

    I figure that will happen well after Israel has no ass left to kiss. And no sooner.

  48. 48
    Craig says:

    @The Dangerman: This is another one of those things where people have convinced themselves of a thing that, if they thought about it for a few minutes, would maybe realize that is stupid and kind of offensive.

    For many years now, Israel has been treated as our military bulwark in the Middle East, the last line of defense against first the Commies and now the Jihadis. That may be stupid, and shortsighted, and wrong, but that is the theory. But according to this theory that you’re espousing, our support for Israel rests on the notion Jews are essentially a fifth column in America who don’t care about the same things everyone else cares about like jobs and economic security and various bits of social justice and whatever else that causes ordinary Americans to vote the way they vote. No, Jews only care about Israel, and their votes can be easily won or lost on that issue alone. I’m not saying that someone who believes this is an anti-Semite, any more than ABL was calling Michael Moore a racist, but it is an anti-Semitic thing to believe.

  49. 49
    Samara Morgan says:

    @DS: pali is palestinian.
    i say Pak for pakistan too, and xian for christian. im an equal opportunity texter.
    :)

    and yes i agree with you.
    Obama should not veto the Security Council vote.
    Could that happen?

    The palis had enough votes to become a non-member state in the general UN assembly.
    I wonder why they chose the Security Council Vote…is Obama going to change the US vote from veto to approve?
    Or do they want to drive a wedge between the US and Saud by forcing the US to veto?
    wheels within wheels.

  50. 50
    Mino says:

    @Dennis SGMM: I was just thinking about the resemblance of Bibi to our Republican party. Holding their breath cause they know no one will throw water in their face. I wish they were wrong.

    Hell, maybe Mossad gave the Republicans the tactic. You think?

  51. 51
    Mino says:

    @singfoom: We’re back door subsidizing our weapons industry.

  52. 52
    some guy says:

    the Palestinian State already exists, it was declared by the PLO in exile in Algiers in 1988. The “government” of Abbas is merely requesting entry into the United Nations as a member state. They will be vetoed at the Security Council by the US and then be granted observer status in the General Assembly. The interesting question will be which and how many member states vote against them in the General Assembly.

  53. 53
    Brachiator says:

    Why aren’t we allowed to treat Israel like every other nation in the world and do what is in our best interest.

    And what is in our best interest in this case?

    @Dennis SGMM:

    The U.S. will veto the Palestinians’ bid for statehood and a few thousand more people around the world will give up on us being an honest broker in any dispute.

    So, are we supposed to pursue our own national interest, or be an honest broker in the world?

  54. 54
    Tony J says:

    @DS:

    Here is what I know: Netanyahu opposes a UDI by the Palestinians. He also opposes a one-state solution, which is what would happen if the Palestinians dropped their demand for an independent state and full civil and political rights from Israel. The only thing he does not oppose apparently is a Palestinian state with no army, no control over their own airspace, no control over their borders, no control over their water, etc.

    Exactly. Smell the Freedom.

    The only peace deal Likud will ever accept is one where Palestinians acknowledge that they, and they alone, are responsible for every single bad thing that has ever happened in the region over the last 60+ years, and so don’t deserve to be a ‘real’ state, not until they’ve paid all the reparations Israel deserves for looking after them for so long. And Israel gets to decide both the “How much” and the “How long for”.

    The “How much” being everything, and the “How long for” being forever.

    Sounds reasonable to me. You’d have to be an anti-semite to think differently.

  55. 55
    Samara Morgan says:

    Americans are so americancentric. Egypt and Turkey are also pressuring the US to approve Pali statehood.
    I think Obama wants to stay on as good of terms as he can with Egypt, given that the US propped Mubarek for 30 years.

  56. 56
    singfoom says:

    @Brachiator: I would say it is in our national interest to be an honest broker, but that’s not going to happen, Because of the dynamics of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in terms of US domestic politics, we will NEVER, EVER be an honest broker for this conflict.

    When we pay to build infrastructure via USAid in the West Bank and then give 3 billion to the Israeli army a year that then destroys said infrastructure, we’re not an honest broker.

    But, it sure does keep our weapons industry humming along at a nice clip.

  57. 57
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Brachiator:

    The U.S. will veto the Palestinians’ bid for statehood

    im not so sure.

  58. 58
    a geek named Bob says:

    @cleek:

    How is it anti-semitic to treat Israel as just another nation?
    Wouldn’t acting in their interests at the expense of our own be anti-american?

  59. 59
    singfoom says:

    @Samara Morgan: Then you’re smoking crack. The US has sent every single signal it can to say it’s going to veto it on the Security Council.

  60. 60
    Samara Morgan says:

    i wonder what the augueries have foretold the simulations show.
    and if Pali statehood moves the hand on the Doomsday clock, and which way.
    :)

  61. 61
    lacp says:

    @Samara Morgan: If we weren’t going into an election year, I’d share your doubts.

  62. 62
    Rick Taylor says:

    I don’t understand why Obama is attacked so aggressively when what he says and does that’s critical of Israel seems so mild. Did Bill Clinton have this sort of trouble?

  63. 63
    Rick Taylor says:

    I don’t understand why Obama is attacked so aggressively when what he says and does that’s critical of Israel seems so mild. Did Bill Clinton have this sort of trouble?

  64. 64
    singfoom says:

    @a geek named Bob: When an American politician or academic or otherwise highly prominent criticizes the Israeli government, it’s because they hate jews.

    It’s basically a cottage industry at this point. You can’t argue with it either, because if you don’t think that person hates jews, well, obviously, you hate jews too, you damn jew hater.

    And on and on and on.

  65. 65
    Samara Morgan says:

    @singfoom: haha, yes.
    and euro and US diplo envoys have been beating the carpets in every state department office in MENA for the last two weeks trying to sell the “diplomatic solution”.
    Because Obama never engages in kabuki.

  66. 66
    LanceThruster says:

    @cleek: Whaah??

  67. 67
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Rick Taylor: My recollection is he did, but not to this emotional extreme. Some of it is post-9/11 Mooslim hysteria, some of it is racial anxiety.

  68. 68
    Anoniminous says:

    @Samara Morgan:

    Not “american-centric,” realistic.

    If I may put it this way: the “pro” Palestinian vote is diffuse and amorphous, the “pro” Israel vote is organized (Tea Baggers) and well funded (AIPAC.)

    Add, national politicians – of whatever nationality – care much more about domestic politics than foreign policy.

    The upshot: the US actively supports Israel (like shipping them ‘bunker buster’ bombs during their last invasion of Lebanon) and only gives the Palestinians talky-talk support. And not always doing that. And, so far, the US has been able to buy-off Turkey and Egypt because their national politicians are national politicians and care more for their domestic politics than foreign policy.

  69. 69
    daveNYC says:

    @Brachiator: I’d argue that being seen as an honest broker is more important to our national interests than whatever it is that we get from our unquestioning support of Israel.

  70. 70
    Mino says:

    I wonder how many surprise no’s in the GA after Geitner’s efforts in Europe this week?

  71. 71
    Samara Morgan says:

    @lacp: Obama is on record that he doesnt care about being a one term president.
    that said, i do not think he can lose to the candidates the GOP has fielded.

  72. 72
    kindness says:

    It doesn’t matter what Obama does. The media will screw him every way till 2012 for it no matter what he does.

    Didn’t you people get that memo or did it only go out to Fox?

    Myself. I think Israel-Palestine should be one state now.

  73. 73
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Anoniminous:

    because their national politicians are national politicians and care more for their domestic politics than foreign policy.

    that has changed.
    while euromerican diplos were on their tour of the ME pimping the “diplomatic solution” Erdogan was on a tour of his own.
    The Sauds will have to break with America eventually if the palis dont get some justice.
    and that means 10$ a gallon gas.

  74. 74
    LanceThruster says:

    Why aren’t we allowed to treat Israel like every other nation in the world and do what is in our best interest, not theirs?

    Because actions have consequences. The Israel Lobby rewards and punishes with such consistency that US politicians ignore such at their own peril.

    Even so-called “liberals” (Jewish or otherwise) are quite often “PEP” (Progressive Except for Palestine).

    As if we don’t have enough problems, the very debate gets distorted. Asking who benefits is a good way to deconstruct propaganda.

    Bunny Yoohoo said 9/11 was good for Israel.

  75. 75

    Hendrik Hertzberg has an interesting piece up at the New Yorker on the NY-09 election.

    To be sure, although the jaw-dropping “Psak Halacha/Public Service Announcement on an Urgent Matter of Jewish Law”—signed by forty rabbis and widely distributed in the relevant neighborhoods—mentions “Eretz Yisroel” in the fine print, the rest of it is all about sex. No, not the former incumbent’s indiscreet tweets. No, not the G.O.P. nominee’s most notable professional accomplishment: creating and producing the “Jerry Springer Show,” not exactly a stronghold of pious sexual modesty. Not those. That other kind of sex. The icky kind.
    __
    A few excerpts:
    __

    Weprin has been publicly advocating for and advancing the radical LGBT (To’ava) agenda, including the very definition of marriage itself. Weprin voted this past year for same gender “marriages” in the NYS Assembly.
    He also voted in the Assembly to legalize adoptions by same gender “parents,” and voted for the so called “Dignity for All Students Act” (DASA). DASA would require that children as young as kindergarten age be taught respect and tolerance for homosexuals.
    __
    To add further insult, he has been marching in the wicked ones’ “Pride Parades.”
    __
    Welprin’s claim that he is “Orthodox” makes the Chilul Hashem even greater; some people will be led to believe that chas v’shalom the Torah itself permits and supports this agenda.

    __
    (Glossary: a psak halacha is a sort of Jewish fatwa. To’ava means abomination or abominable. Chilul Hashem denotes blasphemy, essentially. Chas v’shalom has the sense of “God forbid.”)
    __
    Then the takeaway, in big, loud type:
    __

    It is therefore Assur [forbidden according to Torah law] to vote for, campaign for, publicly honor, fund, or otherwise support the campaign of Assembylman David Weprin, now running to succeed Anthony Weiner in the 9th Congressional district.

    __
    Italics, boldface, underlining, bracketed translation, and typo the Rabbis’.

    Lovely. So we are torn between being anti-Semitic or homophobic? This is why it’s hard to give a shit about the NY-09.

  76. 76
    a geek named Bob says:

    @singfoom:

    But at some point (even if that point is a distant one), the tactic will stop working. It appears that the rhetorical coupling of “You have to like everything Israel does, otherwise you are anti-semitic” is failing with at least some Jews.

    Wouldn’t Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians be considered anti-semitic? After all, developing a large indigenous population next door that hates your conduct towards their civilians CAN’T be good for Israel.

  77. 77
    Mino says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I hesitate to even mention it(ducks head), but I got a superiority vibe off Bibi in the way he spoke of President Obama.

  78. 78
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Rick Taylor:

    I don’t understand why Obama is attacked so aggressively when what he says and does that’s critical of Israel seems so mild.

    I don’t remember Obama ever saying or doing anything remotely critical of Israel. The whole charge is completely trumped up out of nothing by lying neocon liars.

  79. 79
    Zifnab says:

    @Mino: Just pray they never start outsourcing tanks and jets to China.

  80. 80
    singfoom says:

    @Samara Morgan: The Israeli lobby in the US will not allow the US to lessen it’s commitment to Israel. I see no way past that. They are effective and very vocal and will cry foul immediately and any politician who goes against them, especially within the Republican party, is fucking toast. Please see George Herbert Walker Bush.

  81. 81
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Southern Beale: Nah, I’m sure the whole thing was _really_ about Obama’s lackluster support for Social Security and Medicare, as alleged in the piece cited here.

  82. 82
    LanceThruster says:

    JFK made it a point to insist that his allegiance was not first and foremost to the pope. There are calls for and declarations of loyalty to Israel as the first responsibility of any Jew and even this loyalty is defined as nothing less than the Zionist model for Israel.

    As a nation, our loyalty should be for justice, consistantly applied.

  83. 83
    singfoom says:

    @a geek named Bob: It’s been working for a good long time, and the Israel lobby in the United States is quite strong. I agree, at some point it will stop working, but I’m pretty sure I’ll be dead in the ground by then. Yes, the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis is deplorable, but you haven’t listed out every crime the Palestinians have ever committed against Israelis, so therefore, you hate jews.

    It’s really amazing how much this affects our domestic politics. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.....ign_Policy for a nice giant example.

  84. 84

    And Hertzberg on the subject of this post, the GA vote on Palestinian statehood:

    Nationally, most American Jews still support Obama, who took seventy-seven per cent of the Jewish vote against McCain. The President won’t do anywhere near that well next year. Never mind that his actual policies—unprecedentedly close operational coöperation with the Israeli security agencies, plus open support for a two-state solution based on the 1967 lines—are considerably more conducive to the survival of Israel as a democratic and Jewish state and a prosperous part of the global economy than the Republicans’ policies, with their fealty to the Netanyahu-neocon-Christianist brand of Zionism, would be. Netanyahu is currently cooking up a nightmare for Obama and the United States (and for Israel, too) by using the Israel lobby’s muscle to force the Administration to oppose a U.N. General Assembly resolution giving limited recognition to Palestinian statehood. This is a horrible mistake, as some of the more level-headed American friends of Israel have pointed out. E.g., Jeffrey Goldberg, our former New Yorker colleague, now at the Atlantic {….}
    __
    […]
    __
    Obama may well be destined to get a smaller share of the Jewish vote this time around than any Democratic nominee since 1980, when Jimmy Carter, my old boss, ran for reëlection. By brokering the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty, President Carter did more for Israeli security than any of his successors have managed to do (though I’m not sure Jeff would agree with me on that particular point). Even so, in ’80, among Jews, Carter couldn’t even break fifty per cent. His reward, besides one belated Nobel Peace Prize (plus an assist on two others), was the bum’s rush out of the White House. Obama’s already got his Nobel, which was anything but belated. At the rate he’s going, though, he’ll need a bit of luck to avoid the rest.

    I daresay Palestinian statehood would do more for Israeli security than the Republicans’ “nuke the ragheads” approach has been but as a previous commenter pointed out, this is more about selling weapons for the MIC and pretending to be “tough” on security. Now that we made the grave mistake of vanquishing our old enemy the Soviets, we need a new reason to keep building up arms. The Muslims will be that enemy; after all, they did place themselves atop “our” oil, and as long as Israel/Palestine keeps everyone hot under the collar, we can keep selling weapons.

    Huzzah.

  85. 85
    IrishGirl says:

    @cleek: What are you talking about?

  86. 86
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Anoniminous: and Mubarek is gone. i forgot to mention that.

  87. 87
    IrishGirl says:

    @chopper: Agreed, I think world pressure is the ONLY way peace will be achieved. The Israel/US dynamic ensures that we’re a “toady”, not the enforcer of agreements.

  88. 88
    Amanda in the South Bay says:

    @KG:

    Well, Israel grabbed the West Bank after the 67 War, at a time when most of its military hardware was ex-European. American military support didn’t really increase till after that war.

  89. 89
    Samara Morgan says:

    @LanceThruster: why yes….as the Prophet said, a nation can exist without god…but a nation cannot survive without justice.
    :)
    with liberty and justice for all.
    LOL

  90. 90
    IrishGirl says:

    @Samara Morgan: Good points. I hadn’t thought about the new dynamics in the region with so many uprisings. I think the loss of Saudi influence and our diminishing presence will mean that we Iran will become predominant. Again, if we let that happen then we have REALLY F’d up our national interest for the sake of Israel AGAIN.

  91. 91

    There is an old saying that if you lock four French citizens in a room, when you let them out they will have formed five political parties.

    In that regard, the Jews that I’ve rubbed elbows with have a lot in common with the French. There is a tremendous amount of diversity of opinion. About everything. Any day now we’ll be treated to a passionate argument on whether the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

    I just can’t believe that any one stance would alienate the entire Jewish ethnic group.

  92. 92
    Duckest Fuckingway: Ask not for whom the Duck Fucks. . . says:

    This is the sort of shit that always fucks up Passover.

  93. 93
    Paul in KY says:

    @Samara Morgan: The Saudis have had 20 years to break with us & they haven’t yet.

  94. 94
    Brachiator says:

    @singfoom:

    I would say it is in our national interest to be an honest broker, but that’s not going to happen, Because of the dynamics of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in terms of US domestic politics, we will NEVER, EVER be an honest broker for this conflict.

    Interesting point, and at variance with some of the neo-isolationism that comes from some Balloon Juicers.

    @Samara Morgan: RE: The U.S. will veto the Palestinians’ bid for statehood

    im not so sure.

    I did not make this statement, but I agree that US blockage is not necessarily a slam dunk.

    @Zifnab:

    Just pray they never start outsourcing tanks and jets to China.

    China already has a robust weapons industry, which they use to pursue their own national interests.

  95. 95
    Michael D. says:

    @cleek:

    because of anti-Semitic comments like that. that’s why.

    This is the only comment that matters on this thread. Bravo. Nail, meet head.

  96. 96
    cmorenc says:

    @earl in CA:

    @cleek: can you explain how that statement is anti-semitic? or are you being sarcastic?

    I had the same reaction at first, but concluded after pondering the matter for a few moments that it was far more likely to be a snark than a dead-serious response. What’s scary is that there’s undoubtedly a significant number of Jewish voters in the U.S. for whom that might be their dead-serious response, and who might even accuse me of being antisemitic for making that observation.

  97. 97
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Paul in KY: times change.
    only conservatives think the status quo is the only way to manage risk.
    Obama is a gamer, as i have told you umpteen times.

    we shall see.

  98. 98
    KXB says:

    @OzoneR:

    They’re not swing votes, they are still overwhelmingly Democrat. But a select few are very big donors. A few million dollars switched from one party to another makes a difference.

  99. 99
    Paul in KY says:

    @Samara Morgan: I’d like to see the resolution passed, as I support an actual Palestinian state. However, I feel pretty sure we will veto it.

    Hope you are right.

  100. 100
    singfoom says:

    @Linda Featheringill: One does not have to alienate the entire Jewish ethnic group. One need only challenge the Israeli government on policy, it’s treatment of the Palestinians, illegal settlements, anything really. And then the Israeli lobby present here in the US will swing into action.

    The acceptable discourse in terms of Israeli policy in this country is less varied than it is within Israel itself.

  101. 101
    Bill Arnold says:

    Why aren’t we allowed to treat Israel like every other nation in the world and do what is in our best interest, not theirs?

    cleek was wicked fast with it. Phrased in a more Israel-friendly manner, because the U.S. and Israel have a uniquely special relationship, that cannot be questioned.

  102. 102
    singfoom says:

    @Samara Morgan: I disagree that we won’t veto it, but I would gladly welcome the Security Council accepting their petition. This might be a game changer, but I’m 99.9% sure that we’ll veto it, and the conflict will grind in in it’s own inexorable course.

  103. 103
    John S. says:

    Man, this is some sloppy analysis – particularly from OzoneR.

    There are several different factions within the Jewish community. Orthodox Jews are pretty much Likudniks, and they typically lean very conservative. They are similar to the Cuban vote in South Florida. And like the Cubans, they are a small – but vocal – minority within the larger community.

    Jews as a group DO vote overwhelmingly Democratic, just as Hispanics typically vote Democratic. But the small number of Orthodox Jews – like Cubans – tend to vote Republican. You’d be just as off trying to read the tea leaves based on Cubans in Miami representing Hispanics at large as you would be reading Orthodox Jews representing Jews at large.

    And for the record, I am a non-Orthodox Jew living in South Florida.

  104. 104
    soonergrunt says:

    @ John Cole, top:

    Why aren’t we allowed to treat Israel like every other nation in the world and do what is in our best interest, not theirs?

    Because there are more Jews in the US than there are in Israel.
    Also because a significant part of the non-Jewish vote hopes that Israel will be the subject of WWIII, thereby bringing about the apocalypse and the second coming of Christ.
    SATSQ.

  105. 105
    urizon says:

    Ed Koch will continue campaign for wingnuts because he’s a racist asshole:

    “Koch became a controversial figure in the 1988 presidential campaign with his very public criticism of Democratic candidate Jesse Jackson, who had surprised many political observers by winning key primaries in March and running even with the front runner, Massachusetts Governor Michael Dukakis. As the April New York primary approached, Koch reminded voters of Jackson’s alleged antisemitism and said that Jews would be “crazy” to vote for Jackson. Koch endorsed Tennessee Senator Al Gore, who had run well in his native south, but hadn’t won 20% in a northern state. As Koch’s anti Jackson rhetoric intensified, Gore seemed to shy away from Koch. On primary day, Gore finished a weak third place with 10% of the vote and dropped out of the race. Jackson ran ten points behind Dukakis, whose nomination became assured after his NY win. In 1989, he ran for a fourth term as Mayor but lost the Democratic primary to David Dinkins, who went on to defeat Rudy Giuliani in the general election. Koch’s anti-Jackson campaign in 1988 had angered many black voters, likely playing a major role in Koch’s defeat and the victory of Dinkins.

  106. 106
    John S. says:

    Shorter me:

    Orthodox Jews are to Jewish Voters as Cubans are to Hispanic Voters.

  107. 107
    Brachiator says:

    @LanceThruster:

    JFK made it a point to insist that his allegiance was not first and foremost to the pope. There are calls for and declarations of loyalty to Israel as the first responsibility of any Jew and even this loyalty is defined as nothing less than the Zionist model for Israel.

    What does the statements made by JFK as a presidential candidate have to do with what ordinary people believe?

    “There are calls …” Typically vague, and generally meaningless bull crap.

  108. 108
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .
    What does that fat white antisemitic firebagger clown Michael Moore have to say about it? Then we’ll know to say the opposite. Thanks for calling this out, AJL.
    .
    .

  109. 109
    Samara Morgan says:

    @singfoom: i dunno….a good gamer would be trying to leverage the non-veto into gettin’ bibi to stop building settlements (that would be the pareto-optimization). But bibi thinks he has a nash equilibrium….
    only four days to find out.
    :)
    :)

  110. 110
    Amir Khalid says:

    I don’t see a conflict between the US being an honest broker between Israel and Palestine, and its own best interest. In fact I think the US would best serve its interests by being an honest broker. But it hasn’t been one, for the most part, because of the domestic political pressures described up-thread.

    It was a mistake to create the modern Israel in the first place, when you think about how much grief its existence has caused. The proper redress for the Holocaust should have been restitution for its survivors in Europe; not colonial powers in the Middle East granting European Jews another people’s land. But Israel has been there these 60 years and more, and it’s much too late to undo the mistake.

    The US is between a rock and a hard place. If it vetoes UN recognition of Palestinian statehood, Obama’s project to rebuild American credibility with the Muslim world, which is necessary but has been making unavoidably slow progress, suffers a great setback. If it does not,there are those pro-Israel domestic political pressures, which would not be kind to any American politico seen as abandoning Israel. The US got on Israel’s side for a secular reason, i.e. the Cold War; that conflict is long over, but now it’s stuck with a most awkward client state.

    (I took so long to compose this comment that many of my points have already been discussed by those with faster fingers. I’m posting it anyway.)

  111. 111
    Brachiator says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    It was a mistake to create the modern Israel in the first place, when you think about how much grief its existence has caused.

    Do you think that the creation of Pakistan was a mistake also? Just asking.

  112. 112
    lacp says:

    @Amir Khalid: Drone strikes are not a particularly effective way to rebuild America’s credibility in the Muslim world.

  113. 113
    bin Lurkin' says:

    @cleek:

    because of anti-Semitic comments like that. that’s why.

    Congrats on some of the most effective snark I’ve read on BJ in a while, you really roped ’em in with that one.

  114. 114
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Amir Khalid: i actually agree with most of this, but the Sauds and Turkey are putting ginormous pressure on the US to non-veto.
    If the Sauds are percieved as being in cahoots with America and Israel, the monarchy will fall.
    American power in the ME is declining– Mubarak fell, Saleh is falling, King Abdullah is in trouble. We are gettin’ kicked out of Iraq in December and leaving A-stan as soon as we can fold our tents.
    The Sauds are chiefly worried about Iran and the emerging shi’ia crescent and the growth of Iranian hegemony.

  115. 115
    lacp says:

    @Brachiator: Interesting question, and worth asking independently of this thread.

  116. 116
    Todd says:

    This thread is sad because people are so unfamiliar with the politics surrounding this that they took cleek seriously.

  117. 117
    Monkey Business says:

    Just like only Nixon could go to China, it will take a Jewish President to solve the issue of Israel and Palestine.

    Allow me to explain.

    A Gentile President would immediately face charges of anti-Semetism from AIPAC and the Christian Right if they were to voice anything less than a full-throated support of Israel.

    A Jewish President would face no such restrictions. A Jewish President can say whatever they want about Israel and chart whatever policy they wish, because charges of anti-Semitism would ring hollow when the President is, well, a Semite.

    A Gentile President cannot go in front of the Knesset and tell them to change course on Palestine. A Jewish President could.

    The Knesset would laugh them out of the building. First off, because I doubt they could get the pronunciation right, and second off because what would a Gentile President from the West know of the struggle of the Jewish people? A Jewish President would be given a level of influence a Gentile President would not.

    No, America will never solve the Israel/Palestine crisis until a member of the Tribe sits in the Oval Office.

  118. 118
    a geek named Bob says:

    @singfoom:

    Singfoom, I’ll have to remember to tell my bloodbrother that I hate jews. My wife and I show up at his place before sundown on friday…

  119. 119
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Amir Khalid: do you think the Prophet was right then?

    A nation can exist without god, but a nation cannot survive without justice.

  120. 120
    singfoom says:

    @Samara Morgan: Bib doesn’t give a fuck about what we have to say about settlements, just as the settlers themselves don’t give a fuck about what Bibi has to say to them.

    Perhaps if we were able to use the stick of removing the $3bn carrot, we might be able to do something, but as I’ve noted before on this thread, that dog won’t hunt here in the US.

  121. 121
    a geek named Bob says:

    @Michael D.:

    Much as I’m going to regret this…

    here, troll… have a cookie.

  122. 122
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Southern Beale:

    I remember years ago reading an article about an alternative school they had for gay kids in NYC who had been so bullied in their regular schools that they had to give them this alternative school option or most of them would have dropped out entirely.

    One of the teachers there was an Orthodox Jewish woman whose family hated that she worked with gay kids and were constantly pressuring her to find another job even though she loved the work. She finally agreed that they would let the rabbi decide.

    The elderly rabbi heard both sides and said, “So, she’s teaching kids that no one else will teach? And they wouldn’t be able to go to school otherwise? Of course she should keep teaching them!”

    I can’t help it, I love that story.

  123. 123
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Monkey Business: but that will not happen. America will have a scientologist for president before there is a mormon or a jew or a muslim.

    even catholics are christians.
    :)

  124. 124
    singfoom says:

    @a geek named Bob: Bob, please know that was snark. I don’t think you hate anyone. But the very idea that we wouldn’t support Israel in everything it does as a country really does raise cries of anti-semitism here in the US.

  125. 125
    Samara Morgan says:

    @singfoom: but the settlements are the problem.
    are you saying this is an “impossible problem”?
    that is what we say in mathematics for problems with zero solutions.

  126. 126
    Brachiator says:

    @lacp:

    Interesting question, and worth asking independently of this thread.

    While a further discussion may be appropriate for another thread, the question and any answer works right here.

    The creation of Israel and Pakistan were both in part based on the same colonial background and premises, and happened around the same time. Both lead to problems, which persist to this day. People like to pretend that the case of Israel is somehow unique in world history, and ignore the larger context.

  127. 127
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Brachiator:

    Do you think that the creation of Pakistan was a mistake also? Just asking.

    Personally, I do think letting Pakistan break off was a mistake. IIRC, Gandhi was hugely against it and his opposition was one of the reasons for his assassination (he was assassinated by a Hindu extremist who was pissed off that Gandhi was being too nice to the Muslims).

  128. 128
    a geek named Bob says:

    @singfoom.

    I know your comment was snark. I was trying for the same effect, but I’m – at least at the moment – snark impaired. My snark ability tends to get downgraded when I have to work on power supplies. (My personal bit towards getting us off the oil addiction…)

  129. 129
    Svensker says:

    @Monkey Business:

    A Jewish President would face no such restrictions. A Jewish President can say whatever they want about Israel and chart whatever policy they wish, because charges of anti-Semitism would ring hollow when the President is, well, a Semite.

    You might want to look up Tony Judt and Norman Finkelstein, among others.

  130. 130
    Mnemosyne says:

    @John S.:

    Orthodox Jews are to Jewish Voters as Cubans are to Hispanic Voters.

    Exactly. We had someone here a few weeks ago arguing that nominating Marco Rubio for VP would bring the Hispanic vote to the Republicans and several of us took up a lot of time trying to explain that, no, Hispanic voters are many different ethnic groups and many of them despise Cubans because of the special immigration privileges that Cubans get.

  131. 131
    singfoom says:

    @Samara Morgan: I’m not saying it is an impossible problem, but I’m saying that any solutions for said problems won’t revolve around US-Israeli relations and that I don’t think we can be an honest broker.

    The game here is rigged because of the dynamic that that conflict plays within our domestic politics. The Israeli lobby is very strong, and then there’s the evangelicals within the R party that see support of Israeli as an article of faith.

    The problem is not NP complete, the US is just not the solution. At the moment, I’d say we’re part of the problem, since we are supplying arms to Israel in massive numbers and not condemning them.

    The whole Oslo accords, US as a broker between the Palestinians and Israel is a stalling game, kabuki with which we look like we’re trying to solve the problem, when we’re giving Israel billions a year so that they can buy weapons from us.

  132. 132
    DS says:

    @Monkey Business: Haha sorry but I don’t think so. It doesn’t help that most Jewish politicians in the United States are, publicly at least, rabidly pro-Likud (see: Anthony Weiner), so I’m not sure that having a Jewish President would push the ball forward at all. On the other hand, I think we both know what AIPAC, etc, would say if there was a Jewish President who criticized Israel: self-hating Jew, not really Jewish, and so on. It really doesn’t matter that the vast majority of Jews and non-Jews would agree with this person, the smearing from Likudniks and other wankers would be merciless, the press would pick up on it because it makes good copy, and they would have to answer questions about why a Jew hates Israel. I just don’t see how it would help at all.

  133. 133
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Brachiator: well i approve of pakistan.
    the first islamic state.
    i correspond with Dr Ghamidi and ima member of his site Meezan.
    Israel and Pakistan are nothing alike.
    Israel was unjustly imposed on dar ul Islam by euros.
    Pakistan is the first islamic state, and represents the consent of the governed.

  134. 134
    priscianus jr says:

    @OzoneR:

    Jews, Republicans want them, Democrats need them, they’ve now shown themselves to be swing votes.

    The GOP belief that Jews are swing votes resembles the hardass evangelical belief that the Jews are about to come to Jesus. There are always a few, but basically it ain’t gonna happen. But they’ll keep believing it, because that’s their religion.

  135. 135
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Brachiator:
    Pakistan as originally constituted in 1947 was definitely a monumental blunder: two regions separated from each other by the entire width of northern India, ethnically dissimilar and not sharing a common language. East Pakistan finally broke away from West Pakistan’s dominance in 1970 and became Bangladesh.

    Was Mohammad Ali Jinnah right to agitate for Pakistan? In light of the very real violence going on between Muslims and Hindus in India in the late 1940s, I dare not second-guess that. Some sort of partition might have been inevitable despite anyone’s best efforts. I do know that partition didn’t relieve Muslim-Hindu hostilities much, if at all. Pakistan and India have been at war m0re than once since then, and relations are strained to this day.

    By the way: when I say that Israel’s creation was a mistake, it’s not out of anti-Semitism; I’m not aware of having any such prejudice. I’m just going on the evidence as I see it.

  136. 136
    cleek says:

    @bin Lurkin’:
    i suspect perhaps that one was a little too dry.

    alas!

  137. 137
    priscianus jr says:

    @Comrade Dread:

    Why aren’t we allowed to treat Israel like every other nation in the world and do what is in our best interest, not theirs? — Money money money money, MONEY

    Yes, but if it were only MONEY, then we WOULD treat Israel like every other nation, because we treat every other nation on the basis of money as well. So it must be something else.

    Or are you saying there’s some unique cosmic connection between Israel and money? If so, why don’t you explain that to us in a little more detail.

  138. 138
    singfoom says:

    @cleek: I like the dry cut of your jib, sir. 1000 Internets to you.

  139. 139

    […] John Cole worries that the inevitable American veto will set the stage for another round of disaster in the Middle East. Sadly, this may end up being true, although much of Gaza and West Bank is arguably on a such a tinderbox right now that it wouldn’t take much for another round of protests and bombings to start, which will of course be responded to by Israel with more crackdowns. […]

  140. 140
    priscianus jr says:

    @Comrade Dread: @Mino:

    There is no way we can prevent them from asking and getting permission to be seated in the General Assembly. I’m sure that’s the next move after we block them in the Security Council. What then?

    What then? We can’t do anything about it, that’s what. And if we can’t do anything about it, they’ll have to stop lobbying us to do something about it, because there isn’t anything we can do about it. So it’s like, get real, Israel.

  141. 141
    Amir Khalid says:

    @lacp:
    Indeed not. Doing them is an arguably correct call from a strictly military point of view. But the blowback from the collateral death and destruction fucks the US up diplomatically.

  142. 142
    OzoneR says:

    @John S.:

    But the small number of Orthodox Jews – like Cubans – tend to vote Republican.

    they didn’t 10 years ago and in New York their representatives in Albany and in City Hall are Democrats.

    My question is, what happens to the other Jews if we allow Palestinian statehood?

  143. 143

    […] John Cole worries that the inevitable American veto will set the stage for another round of disaster in the Middle East. Sadly, this may end up being true, although much of Gaza and West Bank is arguably on a such a tinderbox right now that it wouldn’t take much for another round of protests and bombings to start, which will of course be responded to by Israel with more crackdowns. […]

  144. 144
    priscianus jr says:

    @Anoniminous:

    But if you question the morality of Israelis running an open air prison (Gaza Strip) you’re the anti-Semite.

    Yeah! Tell me, can you find a more brilliant cover for the real runners of the scam, the M-I complex?

  145. 145
    John Weiss says:

    @Samara Morgan: I don’t think so and I certainly hope not.

    One of the ‘pubs in the field elected? Hello dark ages part deux!

  146. 146
    Samara Morgan says:

    no one differentiates between anti-semites and anti-Israelis.
    im extremely anti-israeli, but some of my best friends are jews.
    :)

  147. 147
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Svensker:

    You might want to look up Tony Judt and Norman Finkelstein, among others.

    Eric Alterman and “The Juice Box Mafia”

  148. 148
    Samara Morgan says:

    @John Weiss: i do not think any of the republican cadidates can be elected.
    we are at the knee of the curve of the demographic singularity…even in america.

  149. 149
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Samara Morgan:
    Whether that really is a hadith or not, it would sure look nice on a bumper sticker.

  150. 150
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Amir Khalid: it isnt even arguably correct. Droning creates more hostiles than it eliminates. Every hostile kill creates AT LEAST two more hostiles, because of negative influence propagated along both social and consaguineous network connections.
    Mathematically we are not even running in place, we are running backwards.
    The only place droning has return to value is propaganda.
    Killing Al-Quaeda number two keeps up the illusion of progress, and keeps the defense dollars flowing.
    One place droning did have return to value is Pak and the capture of OBL.
    Pasha gave Panetta OBL’s coords in return for dialling back the droning until after Zardari’s re-election.

  151. 151
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Amir Khalid: so would this

    “Islam is the religion of unspoiled nature. It is prohibited to exercise any form of compulsion on man or to exploit his poverty or ignorance in order to convert him to another religion or to atheism.”

    it is not religion that is the great evil of the world.
    it is proselytization of religions.

  152. 152
    Bill Arnold says:

    @priscianus jr:

    Yeah! Tell me, can you find a more brilliant cover for the real runners of the scam, the M-I complex?

    Military aid is a domestic jobs program.

  153. 153
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Samara Morgan: #148
    Somebody in the US military argued for those drone strikes, and their argument prevailed. That’s all I’m saying. I’m not suggesting I agree with that decision.

  154. 154
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Samara Morgan: #149
    And the relevance to this thread is …?

  155. 155

    @cleek: i suspect perhaps that one was a little too dry.

    You’re so stingy with the vermouth.

  156. 156
    Dennis SGMM says:

    @Cris (without an H):
    Dammit! The trick is to pour the Gin while thinking about Vermouth.

  157. 157
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Amir Khalid: bumpersticker contest.
    hay, it was YOUR idea.
    :)

  158. 158
    LanceThruster says:

    @Brachiator:

    And we must ensure that America continues to pledge 100% of its diplomatic support. We must do all of this, so that we can send a strong and loud message that America stands by Israel. And that any attacks on Israel’s security can be considered an attack on America’s security. Your renewed support today will provide the resources we need to work with Congress and the administration to stand with Israel at this critical moment …

    ~ Howard Kohr AIPAC Executive Director http://mondoweiss.net/2011/09/.....urity.html

    No mention of anything Israel must do to retain this 100% support or that those being solicited for this support might have priorities not in sync with AIPAC’s. How do they plan to “work with” the administration when they spend much time tearing it down. The NY-9 race hinged on who was better for Israel, not which candidate was better for America.

  159. 159
    Samara Morgan says:

    do you what else is funnie?
    Israel gets billed as the “only democracy” in the mideast.
    But that isnt true by Omnes standard. Israelis do not have freedom of religion or freedom of speech.
    Jewesses cannot legally marry outside their faith, and critics of the west bank settlements are silenced by law.

  160. 160
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    I think that’s how it was explained in the movie with Ben Kingsley. But per Wikipedia, that wasn’t the Hindu extremist Nathuram Godse‘s only beef (sorry) with the Mahatma. He also opposed Gandhi’s espousal of nonviolence, which isn’t part of Hinduism per se, and which Godse felt put Hindus st a disadvantage against The Rest Of The World.

  161. 161
    Brachiator says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Was Mohammad Ali Jinnah right to agitate for Pakistan? In light of the very real violence going on between Muslims and Hindus in India in the late 1940s, I dare not second-guess that.

    Sure you can. But I agree with you that partition was inevitable, not only because of any tensions, but because of a growing assertion of self-determination by some of the Muslims in the region.

    By the way: when I say that Israel’s creation was a mistake, it’s not out of anti-Semitism; I’m not aware of having any such prejudice. I’m just going on the evidence as I see it.

    I do not accuse you of anti-Semitism, nor did I intend any implied accusation of anti-Semitism.

    But I mention this to point out that India could have been defiant throughout, they could have said that Muslims came to the region as conquerors and had no right to any of the land that ever belonged to India, and that they should be satisfied to be citizens of a multi-cultural India. But that’s not what happened.

    And even if one considered Israel’s creation “a mistake,” I don’t think it can be uncreated any more than Pakistan can be uncreated.

  162. 162
    Dennis SGMM says:

    @LanceThruster:

    You touch on something that still boggles my mind. What, exactly, about our wholehearted support of Israel advances our national interest? Not to be too old school but the Israelis have brazenly attacked one of our vessels, spied on us pretty much continually, and earned us the enmity of just about every ME nation.

    In return, we get, what? Intelligence that thwarted 9/11? Intelligence that warned us of the 1983 bombing of the Marine Barracks in Beirut?

    AFAICT, we get vicarious paranoia and a lot of hatred that we don’t really need.

  163. 163
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Dennis SGMM: i can explain that.

    Rep. Eric Cantor (R-Va.) told Christian Zionists that U.S. policies in the Middle East must be “firmly grounded” in Judeo-Christian principles.
    __
    “Reaching out to the Muslim world may help in creating an environment for peace in the Middle East, but we must insist as Americans that our policies be firmly grounded in the beliefs of the Judeo-Christian tradition upon which this country was founded,” said Cantor (R-Va.), the House minority whip and the only Jewish Republican in Congress, in a speech to the Christians United For Israel annual conference in Washington.

    some of the founders and framers were crypto-jews, Dennis. didnt you know that?

  164. 164
    Brachiator says:

    @LanceThruster:

    No mention of anything Israel must do to retain this 100% support or that those being solicited for this support might have priorities not in sync with AIPAC’s. How do they plan to “work with” the administration when they spend much time tearing it down. The NY-9 race hinged on who was better for Israel, not which candidate was better for America.

    Still irrelevant to your invocation of JFK.

    As an aside, there are always people who see no contradiction between being good Americans and supporting countries and causes to which they feel connected (e.g., support for Irish nationalism by Irish Americans). Life is more complicated than you seem to want to acknowledge.

    And for the sake of those who may be a little slow, I don’t have much good to say about either AIPAC or Israeli hardliners.

  165. 165
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Brachiator:
    Apologies. I did not mean to suggest you were accusing me of anti-Semitism. I should have been more clear in addressing that part to the thread as a whole, rather than including it in my reply to you.

    I believe the official line from the Congress Party at the time was that Muslims were Indians too and should therefore remain part of India.

    Having read my reasons, would you agree with me that the creation of the modern Israel was a mistake?

  166. 166
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Amir Khalid: you and Brach should watch slumdog millionare together sometime.
    :)

  167. 167
    OzoneR says:

    @Dennis SGMM:

    What, exactly, about our wholehearted support of Israel advances our national interest?

    Nothing, we do it despite it not being in our interested because to not do so is politically fatal. To even remotely suggest we don’t do so is politically fatal.

    I don’t know if it’s racial (Israelis are white, Arabs are not), or just guilt for the centuries of our European forefathers tormenting or committing atrocities against Jews.

  168. 168
    Samara Morgan says:

    i think this is accurate, even if its FOX, and if you ignore the attempts to BLAME THE BLACK MAN.
    Abbas Paints U.S. Into a Corner With Palestinian Statehood Demand at U.N.

    Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, by essentially daring the United States to veto his people’s bid for statehood, has put the Obama administration and ally Israel in a corner and has left several lawmakers wondering what U.S. policy on the Middle East is trying to achieve.

    the Arab League (Saudi tools) pushed for the observer status vote in the general assembly.

    National Security Council spokesman Ben Rhodes on Friday added that the only way for the Palestinians to achieve statehood is through agreements with Israel on issues like recognition, agreed-upon borders and security cooperation.
    “We” don’t believe that unilateral actions to the United Nations will lead to a Palestinian state, Rhodes said.
    He said President Obama will make clear during his speech at the U.N. next week — where he also plans to meet with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu — that peace can only be achieved through negotiations.
    But blurring the message, Rhodes then added that while every situation is different, what is constant is U.S. support for self-determination.

    unknown. i think that leaves wiggle room for Obama to support the palis.
    because perhaps the Palis can negotiate better as a state.

  169. 169
    Samara Morgan says:

    i do not think Obama is relly thinking about the jewish vote at this point.
    he is working out the best gamespace move at this time to optimize payoff.

  170. 170
    Brachiator says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Apologies. I did not mean to suggest you were accusing me of anti-Semitism. I should have been more clear in addressing that part to the thread as a whole, rather than including it in my reply to you.

    Not a problem. But since accusations of anti-Semitism easily and quickly pop up in threads like this, I am glad that we are both clear on the issue.

    I believe the official line from the Congress Party at the time was that Muslims were Indians too and should therefore remain part of India.

    Yep, but this did not have any impact on what ultimately happened.

    Having read my reasons, would you agree with me that the creation of the modern Israel was a mistake?

    Can’t really agree, any more than I could agree that the creation of modern Jordan was a mistake, or, as I have already noted, the emergence of Pakistan.

    I see the creation of modern Israel as a painful necessity.

    I have noted before that in my lifetime there have been a number of areas of the world where all sides have valid claims, and the resolution appears to be intractable: Cyprus, Northern Ireland, Israel, Basque Spain and Sri Lanka among them. I have never come across an easy answer to the dilemmas in any of these regions. And I find it odd, though somewhat understandable, that Balloon Juicers fixate on Israel, or want to insist that some variation of a one-state solution is an only answer. It certainly has not worked out well for the Tamils in Sri Lanka, for example.

    @Samara Morgan:

    you and Brach should watch slumdog millionare together sometime.

    I’ve walked the streets of some of the worst slums in Mumbai. I have also had the pleasure of being among those in Hindu, Muslim, Jain, Sikh, Parsi and Buddhist communities in India and Nepal. What is it that I would get from watching the movie that I have not got from personal experience?

  171. 171
    LanceThruster says:

    @Dennis SGMM:

    The assault on the USS Liberty is/was one of the more shameful patchwork of lies and cover-ups imaginable. The ability of the lobby to bully or bribe political leaders is outrageous. The fact that AIPAC gets a pass on rules for foreign lobbies makes zero sense.

    They have operation “Megaphone” to flood sites with pro-Zionist spamming, a Hasbara propaganda manual (geared to win by whatever tactics will work), kneejerk accusations of anti-Semitism over whatever might make the Z-team cry, and are the cause of substantial gatekeeping from sites like HuffPo to DKos. And though the penalty for statements deemed anti-Semitic (valid or not) can be quite severe, false accusations are taken in stride (no harm no foul). Dershowitz called Norman Finkelstein a Holocaust denier, then “revisionist”, then “minimizer.”

    Throw enough crap at the wall and he figures some of is bound to stick (He called Dr. F’s mother a capo too).

  172. 172
    OzoneR says:

    @LanceThruster:

    The assault on the USS Liberty is/was one of the more shameful patchwork of lies and cover-ups imaginable.

    what I never understood is the truth behind this. What the hell was the Liberty doing there in the first place?

  173. 173
    John S. says:

    @OzoneR:

    First, what makes you think the Orthodox didn’t vote Republican 10 years ago? I’d love to see a statistic. In my 30 years of experience with family and friends (mostly Jewish), the Orthodox and Lebovitchers have always been conservative and voted Republican. Ask Tim F. about it sometime, as I believe his father is a Jewish conservative.

    Second, what makes you think the rest of us Jews will suddenly start voting for the GOP upon Palestinian statehood? Again, the majority of my non-Orthodox Jewish family and friends (myself included) support Palestinian statehood. We see it as a much better path towards Jewish peace and security in the Middle East. We see it as the pragmatic solution.

    There will be a few defectors for sure, but the large majority of Jews will still be voting for Obama next year.

  174. 174
    LanceThruster says:

    @Brachiator: Spare me your lectures, Brach. Supporting justice for Palestine and relief efforts can get you targeted as funding terrorism, but US funds directly support settler terrorism. An American youth was killed by IDF in international waters without any condemnation of such.

    Despite your handwaving, JFK confirmed his responsibilities of president of all the people, not his duties as a Catholic president.

    Victor Ostrovsky wrote about sayan and their usefulness in working at cross purposes to American interests. Look at US politicians pushing for a pardon for convicted spy Jonathan Pollard. If he was just thrown into Gitmo those same people would argue that it was not a problem as they only put terrorists there.

    A theocratic apartheid state and democracy are *not* compatible. One pushing that hypocrisy increases our vulnerability.

  175. 175
    LanceThruster says:

    @OzoneR: Sorry yor understanding is so lacking. We need Israeli approval to be in international waters?

  176. 176
    OzoneR says:

    @LanceThruster:

    Sorry yor understanding is so lacking. We need Israeli approval to be in international waters?

    of course not, but what was it doing there. I’m not forgiving the Israeli response, but I have to wonder if it was Egypt attacking it, would the reaction be the same or would we be asking “why did we have an intelligence gathering ship just wandering the Med close to a war zone?”

  177. 177
    LanceThruster says:

    @OzoneR: I’ve contacted survivors of the Liberty. As an intelligence ship, they were tasked to monitor communications of all parties so the US might have an idea of the threats and potential for escalation. It’s like asking why spy satellites are deployed. Clearly it’s risky, but that does not negate or excuse that Israel committed war crimes against the crew, with the further shame of US voices defending Israel’s actions while dismissing crew testimony.

  178. 178
    LanceThruster says:

    Btw, it is surmised that the destruction of the Liberty, if successful, was meant to be a false-flag to draw the US into the war against Egypt.

  179. 179
    Cain says:

    @Brachiator:

    Do you think that the creation of Pakistan was a mistake also? Just asking.

    BTW India would have subsumed Pakistan a long time ago if it wasnt for the U.S. I’m not sure what the reasons was but India in the second Indo/Pakistan war had defeated pakistan and had to retreat back to the borders thanks the U.S. Otherwise it could have been one country again. Yay, U.S. foreign policy.

    That said, India was a Soviet sympathizer back then (sadly enough) and the U.S. probably felt that Pakistan was a check on India being a regional power. Gotta put a stop those communists doncha know.

  180. 180
    LosGatosCA says:

    Why aren’t we allowed to treat Israel like every other nation in the world and do what is in our best interest, not theirs?

    You are an anti-semitic, Jew hating bastard for even thinking America has any interest ahead of the interests of the Israelis.

    Also, where else can we test the effectiveness of our latest military weapons against rock throwing mobs?

    You are so unpatriotic you probably think secession isn’t standing up for America either.

    Dunce.

  181. 181
    lacp says:

    @Brachiator: If there is a fixation on Israel (and I don’t enough foreign policy postings here to know whether that’s true or not), it’s probably a curiosity about why a country with an average family income the same as Spain deserves getting $3B/yr for basically…nothing. I will admit that, having grown up in the Middle East and having Palestinian neighbors, I have a pretty sour opinion of Israel. But I’m not one of the “drive them into the sea” people. C’mon, a two-state settlement is surely doable unless one party wants to slurp up all the territory.

  182. 182
    Carl Nyberg says:

    Why aren’t we allowed to treat Israel like every other nation in the world and do what is in our best interest, not theirs?

    Here’s how I’ve come to see the economic history of the United States. And it explains why supporting Israel is in U.S. economic interest.

    Keynesian economics works. In fact, it not only works, it works really well.

    However, the United States has trouble achieving consensus to use government to hire large numbers of people for anything except the Military-Industrial Complex.

    Since 1939, the United States economy has relied on stimulus provided by military spending.

    But at the end of the Cold War, the Military-Industrial Complex (and the elites who managed the U.S. economy) became nervous. How would the United States justify continued military spending?

    The idea of a war vs. Islam was hatched.

    The economic interests of Israel and the U.S. Military-Industrial Complex overlap significantly.

    Jewish Zionism helps keep urban Democrats onboard with this 21st Century crusade. Outside of spending money for the sake of spending money, the project is pretty insane.

    Israel can’t make peace because that would be the end of the gravy train. And if the gravy train ended, then younger Jews would start to emigrate from Israel.

    So, the United States enabling the slow annexation of Palestinian land is not contrary to the interests of the United States, but essential to keep our economy going with the right people making the big bucks on government spending.

  183. 183
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Brachiator: empathy.

  184. 184
    Mino says:

    @LosGatosCA: Also, where else can we test the effectiveness of our latest military weapons against rock throwing mobs?

    Truer than anyone would like to admit.

  185. 185
    Samara Morgan says:

    @Cole
    Here is Obama’s dilemma.
    Veto a State, Lose an Ally
    i think the jewish part of the electorate and Nov 2012 weighs less on his mind than losing credibility with Turkey, Egypt, Saud and the rest of the ME.

    Does America support representative government for all the peoples of the world or not? Or is it just John Cole democracy– democracy only when its in America’s “interests”.

    if we veto its not just the Palis and Turkey we are throwing under the bus. Its KSA too. Saud is home to Mecca and Medina and the monarchy retains the title Defender of the Faithful.
    The Saudis simply cannot afford to be perceived as taking America’s, and therefore Israel’s side.

  186. 186
    Samara Morgan says:

    for those of you that wont click the link.

    The United States must support the Palestinian bid for statehood at the United Nations this month or risk losing the little credibility it has in the Arab world. If it does not, American influence will decline further, Israeli security will be undermined and Iran will be empowered, increasing the chances of another war in the region.
    __
    Moreover, Saudi Arabia would no longer be able to cooperate with America in the same way it historically has. With most of the Arab world in upheaval, the “special relationship” between Saudi Arabia and the United States would increasingly be seen as toxic by the vast majority of Arabs and Muslims, who demand justice for the Palestinian people.
    __
    Saudi leaders would be forced by domestic and regional pressures to adopt a far more independent and assertive foreign policy. Like our recent military support for Bahrain’s monarchy, which America opposed, Saudi Arabia would pursue other policies at odds with those of the United States, including opposing the government of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki in Iraq and refusing to open an embassy there despite American pressure to do so. The Saudi government might part ways with Washington in Afghanistan and Yemen as well.

  187. 187
    Paul in KY says:

    @Mnemosyne: What do you thik those Hindu extremists would have done to the Muslims who would have had to stay in India, rather than having their own country (with their own police force to protect them)?

  188. 188
    Paul in KY says:

    @OzoneR: We were observing the war from international waters.

  189. 189
    straighforward says:

    I agree with you that Jews do not care about America. I love this country and feel so disappointed that US might veto the bid. As a proud American, I would not support Israel that much. How long and how much more do we have to support Israel? All political arguements/games are caused by Jewish. I have witnessed the worst and rude attitude myself. last week i baked the cookies and offered to my neighbors. in return, they told me that they do not eat non-kosher food. Why do we have to bend over and please them? Why did we have to cancel U-2 concert because it was overlapping with Jewish holidays? Why???? Jewish must respect each representative of USA. . Every American must contribute to make this country prosperious and strongest ever! Work hard, be part of your local community, educate, be good parent, friend and

  190. 190

    […] John Cole worries that the inevitable American veto will set the stage for another round of disaster in the Middle East. Sadly, this may end up being true, although much of Gaza and West Bank is arguably on a such a tinderbox right now that it wouldn’t take much for another round of protests and bombings to start, which will of course be responded to by Israel with more crackdowns. […]

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  1. […] John Cole worries that the inevitable American veto will set the stage for another round of disaster in the Middle East. Sadly, this may end up being true, although much of Gaza and West Bank is arguably on a such a tinderbox right now that it wouldn’t take much for another round of protests and bombings to start, which will of course be responded to by Israel with more crackdowns. […]

  2. […] John Cole worries that the inevitable American veto will set the stage for another round of disaster in the Middle East. Sadly, this may end up being true, although much of Gaza and West Bank is arguably on a such a tinderbox right now that it wouldn’t take much for another round of protests and bombings to start, which will of course be responded to by Israel with more crackdowns. […]

  3. […] John Cole worries that the inevitable American veto will set the stage for another round of disaster in the Middle East. Sadly, this may end up being true, although much of Gaza and West Bank is arguably on a such a tinderbox right now that it wouldn’t take much for another round of protests and bombings to start, which will of course be responded to by Israel with more crackdowns. […]

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