Michael Moore quotes Bill Maher on President Obama: “I voted for the black guy and what we got was the white guy.” [Updated!]

Enough with the racist bullshit coming from the left.  ENOUGH.

Here comes Michael Moore with his “I’m so disappointed coulda-shoulda-woulda armchair quarterbacking” bullshit, with a skosh of racism:

So, the black part of Obama is the gangster part, and there’s some internal struggle going on and the white side is winning?

I’m sick of this shit. I’m the daughter of a mixed-race couple, and I cannot even express how much this infuriates me.

I’m sure I’ll have more to say about this, but for now I have only one question: What the fuck?

It’s not a joke.  AND IT’S NOT FUCKING FUNNY.

You owe black people and President Obama an apology, Mr. Moore.

UPDATE: I’m embarrassed for some of you.  I truly am.   Some of you have lost the plot entirely.  For those who have taken issue with my using the word “gangsta,” Bill Maher (who Moore quoted) has used that term to describe President Obama on TV and Moore’s presence. I’m not just making this shit up. Bill Maher has done this repeatedly, both in the context of “Woo! Obama! (see video below) and “Boo! Obama! (see this post)”  Criticize his policies.  Lay off the racial shit.  Why is that so hard to understand?

That’s a rhetorical question.

Unsurprisingly, I don’t need to post this update at my blog, which is where I’ll be because this comment section is absurd.

[cross-posted at ABLC]






468 replies
  1. 1
    gogol's wife says:

    I’m so sick of them.

  2. 2
    Wil says:

    This kind of crap is pointless. Michael Moore knows better. Why even bother to open this can of worms?

  3. 3
    Hunter Gathers says:

    He pulled this bullshit out of his ass with the human douchebag known as Bill Maher on Maher’s abortion of a panel show a few months ago. Fuck him in the ear with a rusty railroad spike.

  4. 4
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    This makes me sad. Michael Moore is better than this.

    ETA: And Bill Maher should be, but I’ve never had a particularly high opinion of him.

  5. 5
    djork says:

    And white people. I’m straight gangster.

    Thanks, all week, veal, etc.

  6. 6
    lamh32 says:

    ABL, i’ve been tweeting about this too (@psddluva4evah) TNC TNC’s comments were spot on, so I’m posting them here.

    “tanehisi Ta-Nehisi Coates
    It proceeds from a few effed up notions 1.) That blackness=toughness, which is like saying asianess=mathy.”

    “tanehisi Ta-Nehisi Coates
    2.) That what Obama’s skin color is somehow more important than what he said and did during the campaign.”

    “tanehisi Ta-Nehisi Coates
    When you elect president based on your own effed-up presumptions about race, you get what exactly what you deserve.”

    “tanehisi Ta-Nehisi Coates
    It’s like saying What I really need is Jewish accountant, and then being mad when dude effs up my taxes.”

    ETA: It wasn’t funny when Bill Maher said it either.

  7. 7
    Wil says:

    What Moore should be saying is that we voted for Obama hoping he would politick like a Republican and do policy like a Democrat.

    That seemed to be what Obama was offering.

    Instead we just got a Democrat, with the usual “please stop hitting me so hard” sort of weakness that Democrats seem to be born with.

  8. 8
    JWL says:

    The Civil Rights Movement injected political activism to the forefront of American consciousness. It’s movers and shakers were people that agitated against a perverted status quo. In alliance with a strata of white Americans, the movement’s movers and shakers were predominantly black.

    A fact Moore invoked. To decry it as a racist rant is pathetic.

  9. 9
    Alison says:

    Ugh, for fuck’s sake. Somehow I still manage to be astonished at the God damn cluelessness of some white liberals (“liberals”). Really, dude? You’re going to perpetuate that bigoted shit? BLACK PEOPLE GOVERN LIKE THIS AND WHITE PEOPLE GOVERN LIKE THAT!

    And I’m sure he and plenty of others will be all “It was just a joke, calm down”. The problem is, jokes are supposed to be, you know, funny. Which this only is if you think systemic bigotry is TOTES HIGH-LARIOUS, in which case you are an asshole and your definition of funny is on par with Rick Perry’s definition of “party of life”.

  10. 10
    doofus says:

    I remember a time when Moore didn’t seem like a dumbass. Been a while though.

  11. 11
    Zandar says:

    Yeah, see, mixed race myself, and Michael Moore can kiss my ass.

    What you want Obama to be is under your control, because he’s not bright enough to figure shit out for himself, right? He needs the Mighty Michael Moore to do his here political thinnin’ for him.

    This “Obama the neophyte empty suit” code word shit was tiring three years ago. Still going on, says wonders about the “left” eh?

  12. 12
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    I don’t expect much more of Maher, he’s addicted to saying obnoxious things he thinks are ‘brave, edgy truth-telling’.Race, gender, minorities, sexuality. It’s a good third of his schtick. I’m a little surprised at Moore. A little. It’s a racist variant on the childish fantasy of “tuffness” that a good chunk of the left can’t seem to let go of.

  13. 13
    lamh32 says:

    it plays into sterotypes.

    how is this any different than Faux News trying to say Common is a thug just because he happens to be a rapper.

  14. 14
    harlana says:

    “I think the republicans running deeply love this country”?????

  15. 15
    Shawn in ShowMe says:

    I think Moore was expecting some hurrahs from quoting that bit of Bill Maher’s “wisdom”. Then he tried to get the audience on his side by clarifying his comment and that too failed miserably. If all Mike really meant is that he wished Obama would be more like FDR, he really mixed up his metaphors.

  16. 16
    JC says:

    ABL,

    Selective quoting, FYI.

    Not providing context of the quote (example – the quote is Bill Maher’s).

    Also, was in the context of Obama ‘holding an olive branch and getting it whacked out of his hand’, ten, twenty, hundred times.

    so the question from Joy Behar was, ‘why doesn’t Obama respond differently, is it because he is afraid of being portayed as the Angry Black Man?”

    Be offended, and I can see why you take offense.

    But you basically are lying about the context, and being selective in what you are saying.

    And I’m getting tired of the B.S. of your ‘selective editing’.

    Which is mainly done for purposes of entrapment.

  17. 17
    clayton says:

    To decry it as a racist rant is pathetic.

    Your concern and noting that it couldn’t happen without whites is noted.

    C’mon. This is bs, loud and clear.

  18. 18
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Michael Moore is better than this.
    ETA: And Bill Maher should be,

    The original “not a dime’s worth of difference between ‘Bore and Gush'” twins?

    I usually like Moore as a film-maker, but I could never get past the screaming absence of any mention of his own role in getting Bush elected.

  19. 19
    PhoenixRising says:

    How about an apology to the mixed-race Americans out there?

    I expected the guy who fixes my computer to show up on time and be efficient and cheap–but he was late and didn’t know what to do. It never crossed my mind that a way to perceive this situation is that I hired his Asian half but his Mexican half showed up–because although he is full blooded Korexican (his word) I perceive him as a person.

    Which isn’t all that hard to do. Damn.

    Also, Barry never said he was part of the movement or even claimed its political legacy–he said quite honestly that without the movement he would have been nothing, but that he’s not ‘the black President’ in the way that Jesse or Al or even John Lewis would have been ‘black’.

  20. 20
    ABL says:

    @Zandar:

    Michael Moore can kiss my ass.

    +1

  21. 21

    Feh.

    I’m tired of all the left-on-left bashing, myself. ENOUGH.

    Maybe it’s just me.

    Everyone needs to get over their petty fucking grievances and focus their energies on the real enemy.

    IMHO.

  22. 22
    ABL says:

    @JC: are you seriously this dumb? i posted the clip and noted the context in the title.

    you can’t possibly be this dumb.

  23. 23
    ABL says:

    Everyone needs to get over their petty fucking grievances and focus their energies on the real enemy.

    ah, here we go.

    should i just sit quietly over here and wait for well-meaning white folks to tell me what i should be angry about?

    fuck that noise.

    (edited)

  24. 24
    Shawn in ShowMe says:

    @JWL:

    Fine, but Moore sought to clarify his statment not by invoking the black leaders in the civil rights movement, but invoking FDR. In one breath Moore wishes Obama were “blacker” and in the next breath he defines blacker as being like one of the most privileged white presidents the country has ever seen. Whoops.

  25. 25
    lamh32 says:

    @ABL:

    Seconded, but edited to add,

    Micheal Moore can kiss my NB ass

    btw, good on you for posting about this here. I fully expect the usual suspects to defend this due to “context” BS.

    I cannot tell you how tired I am of trying to get people to understand that it’s NOT okay to traffic in stereotypes. Doesn’t matter if you are Black or White. It just so happens that the majority of the people I have to explain shit to happen to be white and I’m sick of it really I am.

  26. 26
    doofus says:

    @JC: Lemme try to get this straight. Joy led in talking about Obama might have to constrain himself since he couldn’t let himself be the “angry black man” then Moore counters with the fact that Republicans keep on rejecting Obama’s olive branches, and then says that he voted for the black man but Obama is governing like a white man. And how would a black man govern? Not like a white guy who compromises and keeps on extending an olive branch to his enemies?

    Was Moore expecting Obama to be more confrontational, and is that what he expected when he voted for the black guy?

  27. 27
    kd bart says:

    OT-Watching Lawrence O’Donnell. Typical Democratic over reaction and panic over the loss of a special election in a district where gay marriage and Israel played a significant role in the voting of Orthodox Jews in the district. O’Donnell stating that this shows that Obama might even have to campaign in New York. I don’t recall Republicans panicking like this when they loss an upstate district earlier this year.

  28. 28
    MattR says:

    @ABL: Weren’t you just telling the LGBT folks what they should be angry about?

  29. 29
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Wil: Yes, what you wanted was for Obama to run the country for the benefit of the Democratic party, not the country. And he’d rather save jobs and lives and get laws passed that allow gays to have the rights they should have, rather than making a bold stand in favor of the party.

    I’ll take him the way he is.

  30. 30
    Alison says:

    @Southern Beale: Petty grievances? You’re really gonna go there? If so, I invite you next to go eff yourself.

  31. 31
    sherifffruitfly says:

    Sigh. As has been abundantly demonstrated in the past, race trumps EVERYTHING, as far as we white folks are concerned. Including professed political leanings.

  32. 32
    lamh32 says:

    @MattR: @Southern Beale:

    So if this had been said by oh, Rick perry, or Bachmann, or any of the other crappy GOP/RNC/teabagger racist, then it would be okay to point out the racism?

    It’s not okay to be offended by this type of stereotyping since it’s “one of our own” trafficking in the stereotyping that we would be putting any GOP/RNC on blast for saying 1/10th of?

  33. 33
    Mark says:

    @lamh32: I do taxes for free for EITC clients. None of them know I’m Jewish. Sometimes they don’t seem too confident in my abilities. Should I reveal myself to them?

  34. 34
    texascowgirl says:

    I’m getting really sick of the racism bursting out of so many white people both left and right. No matter what, they just really can’t help themselves. The only reason I will be voting in 2012 is for Obama, and if he losses this country will be getting all and exactly what it deserves. The Democratic party can kiss my ass too. They haven’t done jack shit to support this President. Hell even Clinton hardly had anyone getting his back except for the black community. Obama had me feeling like America, Fuck Yeah! for the first time in my adult life. Now I’m back to America, Fuck No. I really don’t give a shit anymore. And white left has me feeling this way as much as the white right. Somebody said there wouldn’t be enough high blood pressure medicine or Pepto Bismol to get black America through an Obama presidency. They were right. Obama should have just stayed his brilliant, beautiful black ass in Chicago with his girls. Fuck the left and fuck the right.

  35. 35
    penpen says:

    @Southern Beale: LOL this must be parody, right?

    http://i.qkme.me/3ede.jpg

  36. 36
    Kola Noscopy says:

    Jesus, ABL, the way you dish the nasty bullshit, race baiting, and personal insults in your posts; yet you want to reserve the right to be a delicate flower when it comes to others having some fun with matters surrounding skin color?

    Please.

    No, Michael Moore is not a racist, whatever the hell little bit of meaning that word may have left to itself the way you toss it around ceaselessly here.

  37. 37
    MattR says:

    @lamh32: Nope. I am asking for ABL to be intellectually consistent and understand where much of the criticism about her LGBT post came from. How is it bad for well meaning white people to tell her what she should be mad about, but it is OK for well meaning straight people to tell the LGBT community what they should be mad about?

  38. 38
    ant says:

    @doofus:

    And how would a black man govern? Not like a white guy who compromises and keeps on extending an olive branch to his enemies?

    The fuck if I know.

    Obama will get shit no matter what he does I think.

    Moores comment makes no sense. He’s just mad that things aren’t going the way he would like them to. So….. blackity black black…. or whatever.

    idiot.

  39. 39
    Baud says:

    @kd bart: Yeah, and these Democratic worry-worts are probably the same ones complaining that Obama isn’t tough enough.

  40. 40
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Southern Beale: Until I joined in the self-imposed exile from DK for a week, I was planning on writing a diary about how until we solve the race issue in this country, we will never be able to solve issues like poverty. I was also planning on talking about how we on the left are having trouble with race because we think we have solved it because we are progressive. I think a lot of the fighting is that we’re really not wanting to deal with that issue.

    I am curious, though, what Moore/Maher were thinking by making that statement. Was Obama supposed to have a 9mm in his back that he pulls out to get people to listen?

  41. 41
    lamh32 says:

    @Mark: well if you are Jewish, why you should be good with money, amirite? I’m sure you’d get way more constumers.

    like I said, it should NOT be okay to traffic in stereotypes. Doesn’t matter if you are Republican, Democrat, Conservative, blue, green, whatever. it’s disgusting and does NOTHING to move anyone to your side except other peddlers.

  42. 42
    TooManyJens says:

    @JC: I don’t see how ABL is either lying or disregarding context. I don’t see how the context helps.

  43. 43
    Jc says:

    Another thing – (posting on the fly, will revisit tonight) – why “gangster”?

    Why not Malcolm x?

    Why not the response of a dignified black man, who understands power, and understands a weak response?

    In movies, conservative dignified black men, many times, don’t respond with “the olive branch”.

    Where did gangster come from?

    Didn’t see title, just read content – walking and typing on iphone

  44. 44
    lamh32 says:

    @MattR: oh, so it’s just a personal grievance directed at ABL then. The actual subject matter doesn’t matter to you then. the jab at ABL is more important…got it.

  45. 45
    Shawn in ShowMe says:

    Was Moore expecting Obama to be more confrontational, and is that what he expected when he voted for the black guy?

    What’s ironic is the civil rights leaders that epitomize blackness for the progressive left employed a strategy that exposed the extreme and hateful ideology of their opponents. There was nothing confrontational about sitting down at a lunch counter. It was the demented minds of their oppressors that turned everything into a violent confrontation.

  46. 46
    ABL says:

    No, Michael Moore is not a racist,

    /eyeroll

    You’ve lost the plot.

    Ridiculous.

  47. 47
    taylormattd says:

    And this comment thread right here, this one, is why Anne Laurie can fuck off and kiss my ass. A bunch of whites popping in, trolling the shit out of ABL, defending this racist shit, but its the people who push back who get screamed at and called names on the front page.

  48. 48
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @texascowgirl: I want him to win so that this fire can continue for 4 more years. We need to have this talk, this argument. We are the only country trying to deal with it, as much as we are, and we either burn to the ground or we will go back to being the kind of country that the best and brightest around the world want to move to. And Obama is far stronger than I am; if I were a black man I do not think I could take the weight of what he is dealing with.

  49. 49
    lamh32 says:

    BTW, ABL,

    Micheal Moore is a liberal, so of course there is no way he would say something that might seem, oh I don’t know a bit racist.

    There are NO racist or bigots in the Dem party…only repubs are racist doncha know.

  50. 50
    MattR says:

    @lamh32: Wrong again. My criticism for contradictory stances is not limited to ABL. If it seems that I am picking on her, you might want to consider the possibility it has to do with what she writes and not some personal grievance on my part.

  51. 51
    AlphaLiberal says:

    ABL:

    First, I’ve appreciated some of your other writing. The part we’re you’re not this knee-jerk basher of Obama critics. More of the other, less of this please.

    I don’t care for mentioning race nor the joke. Bad call to use it. But Maher’s joke, which Moore was mentioning, was actually making fun of white people and white men running things badly. There is nothing in the words he said to justify this accusation from you:

    “So, the black part of Obama is the gangster part…”

    Hence, it’s a baseless accusation. And, it’s a habit you have for manufacturing the worst interpretation about people.

    Further, you are blaming all the left for the crimes of your strawman. WTF. How is that different thank blaming all African Americans for faults of one who does wrong? That’s called “collective guilt” and it’s a bad practice.

    Way to harsh my mellow, man.

  52. 52
    Jenny says:

    @Mark: Nah, they’d never believe it, after Jews are greedy and never give anything away for free, much less free professional services.

  53. 53
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @MattR: How is her stance contradictory?

  54. 54
    Kola Noscopy says:

    @lamh32:

    it should NOT be okay to traffic in stereotypes.

    You ARE kidding, right? A huge portion of ABL’s schtick involves stereotype-based insult/humor, which she is OK with as long as it’s aimed at others.

  55. 55
    lamh32 says:

    I’m gonna repost this blog post I found, cause I really do think some people here ought to read it.

    Deeply Embarrassed White People Talk Awkwardly About Race

  56. 56
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Kola Noscopy: What he said was racist. Whether or not he trying to be racist, the statement was. The entire weight of the sentence was based on race. That should not have come out of his, or Maher’s, mouth.

  57. 57
    MattR says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Not the stance in the article itself, but her comment where she complains about having to deal with well meaning white people telling her how she should feel about issues regarding race. That contradicts the fact that she was previously a well meaning straight person posting about how the LGBT should feel about Obama.

  58. 58
    Esteban says:

    OMG, are all the harecore Obama supporters in freak out and destroy mode because someone call Obama an oreo cookie again….So are you guys going to trash Michael Moore and Bill Maher like you did Cornel West??

  59. 59
    AlphaLiberal says:

    And, it’s really annoying to be told to applaud a President whose policies and politics we disagree with.

    We are Americans. If we disagree with a President, we have a right to say as much. It’s pretty lame to go making stuff up about people rather than look at the merits of what they’re saying. Moore had a lot more to say there and he gave voice to the thoughts of millions.

    By your attacks, you drive people apart. It’s stupid politics. You get more bees with honey.

  60. 60
    whitney says:

    @Kola Noscopy: So nothing about the point being made? Only a personal attack on the messenger?

    I am sick to death of hearing about ABL’s “race-baiting” and “viciousness.” I call bs… she speaks the truth for many of us here.

    The complaint is particularly ironic in light of the “gangster-black” approach MM and Maher are advocating for President…But I guess it makes sense: “Get “black” when it’s a message emoprogs and the professional left want to send. But STFU when it comes to race because that’s not what WE care about.

    SMH

  61. 61
    jiffypop says:

    Yep…sick of this shit..I’m one of those who is boycotting at DKos . They don’t really seem to get it. I wonder what they’re saying about it over there?

  62. 62
    doofus says:

    @Shawn in ShowMe:

    There was nothing confrontational about sitting down at a lunch counter.

    I would say that it was highly confrontational. Just like I would say that Obama is extremely confrontational. It is very easy to confuse bluster with fight. And Obama does not do bluster.

  63. 63
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @AlphaLiberal:

    Moore had a lot more to say there and he gave voice to the thoughts of millions.
    __
    By your attacks, you drive people apart. It’s stupid politics. You get more bees with honey.

    Uh, by the standard you set here, why isn’t Moore’s airing of disagreements “stupid politics” that “drive people apart”? It sure ain’t honey.

  64. 64
    Jenny says:

    You know, this reminds me of the late Reggie White, who was an ordained minister yet engaged in mind numbingly hurtful stereotypes.

    Hispanics are gifted in family structure. You can see a Hispanic person and they can put 20 or 30 people in one home. They were gifted in the family structure. When you look at the Asians, the Asian is very gifted in creation, creativity and inventions. If you go to Japan or any Asian country, they can turn a television into a watch. They’re very creative.

    He wasn’t joking. White thought he was being complementary.

    People would do better stay away from race.

  65. 65
    jl says:

    I think it was a pretty good discussion, marred by some silly and outdated racial stereotyping.

    It wasn’t only the lame, second hand, voted for B buy got a W guy joke (which I notice totally bombed with the audience), but the subsequent discussion that somehow, just because Obama is half African descent, he should be ‘different’ or ‘transformative’ somehow. He was supposed to be FDR, or MLK, or whoever.

    I agree, it is silly and offensive, and not helpful.

    I disagree with a lot of what Obama does, especially on economics and civil rights versus national security. But it never enters my mind to dwell on some bogus racial aspect. Obama has a right to have his own beliefs about politics and policy substance, and how to do his job.

    Well, it does enter my mind for a few seconds after I learn of something he has done that I strongly disagree with, that that is just internal venting because I am upset and pissed. The impulse to go to attack some one on personal grounds when angry is human. But people need a little self awareness and discipline to dismiss that stuff while it is still fresh in their head.

    If someone started playing off anti Italian stereotypes to discuss Scalia’s and Alito’s stunts, it would just be considered irrelevant and childish, as well as offensive.

  66. 66
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @MattR: The parallel is not exact. White::Race != LGBT::Obama.

  67. 67
    Baud says:

    @doofus:

    It is very easy to confuse bluster with fight. And Obama does not do bluster.

    Couldn’t agree more.

  68. 68
    seabe says:

    Personally, I give a lot of leeway to comedians like Bill Maher on shit like this. Me personally, I don’t think it’s funny, but it was a joke.

    Moore has less leeway, but he’s quoting Maher. Still, I think it was in bad taste, and an apology would be appropriate.

  69. 69
    Morzer says:

    As far as I can see, Moore is saying that he wants Obama to stop pretending that the GOP will negotiate in good faith, stop pretending that they want anything except to wreck the government. He wants Obama to stand up and fight. How suggesting that this is what a black man would do is racist is hard to imagine. Moore didn’t call Obama a gangster, despite the way these words have been forced into the discussion. He quoted a joke to get his point across – and made that point perfectly clearly. It isn’t derogatory to black men to say that we want to see more of the black man – i.e. the hard-nosed fighter who is good at politics and gets stuff done. What exactly is the point in flaming Michael Moore for saying what many Democrats, and Americans who aren’t even political, have been saying – i.e. we want Obama to stop the bipartisan nonsense, start getting a Democratic message across, and generally stop acting as if the GOP can steal his lunch money anytime they like?

  70. 70
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @AlphaLiberal: Then disagree with him, disagree with the policies and lay off the racial shit.

  71. 71
    magma says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    Until I joined in the self-imposed exile from DK for a week, I was planning on writing a diary about how until we solve the race class issue in this country, we will never be able to solve issues like poverty.

  72. 72
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @MattR: Though I believe the point in that article was to watch what you wish for, because if you feel that Obama has not lived up to his promise, and you decide that he shouldn’t be in office, then you might just get the Republican that comes after. Which seems to be is a bit different than talking about Moore/Maher’s statement. Now, if we were to argue about how President Hillary Clinton has been failing to respond to the racism yet getting the funding for black farmers or passing a bill punishing discrimination against blacks when giving home loans, that would be an interesting argument.

  73. 73
    Dee Loralei says:

    @lamh32: Now I’m following you on twitter. I’m a stalker.

  74. 74
    Mark says:

    @Jenny: true…They’d wonder why I wasn’t ripping them off at H&R Block up the street.

    One guy who had zero withholding and didn’t pay estimated taxes told me the reason he owed money to the government was because I wasn’t Filipino. My boss threw him out.

  75. 75
    Baud says:

    @Morzer: First, I think the criticism is not valid, especially given what Obama has done over the last week. But IMHO it is wrong for someone to assign personal characteristics (for example, “fight”) to a particular race.

  76. 76
    AlphaLiberal says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    What he said was racist. Whether or not he trying to be racist, the statement was. The entire weight of the sentence was based on race. That should not have come out of his, or Maher’s, mouth.

    So how about the political statements regarding white males, old white guys, white guys in suits, etc?

    Because those jokes are the parents to this one.

  77. 77
    lamh32 says:

    ABL, how dare you post about this BS, it’s a distraction from the “real important topics”.

    Seriously, though I applaud you for posting this over here, but this thread has gone exactly the way I expected it would, and like I said up thread, I’ve gotten to the age where I’m done trying to have “a conversation about race” with some people. Cause for certain people who don’t have to deal with or think about prejudice, bigotry or racism in their daily lives, such talk is just a distraction, there is always something more important.

    I’ll see ya on twitter.

  78. 78
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @magma: Good point, but I don’t think we’ll be able to solve the class issue until we solve the race issue, because a lot of poor whites consider themselves to be in a class above blacks, which is why they are willing to allow the rich to run roughshod over them. Now, if we can find a way to convince these people that the rich are fighting a class war, and that they need to join the other poor people in this country for things to get better, then we’ll be on our way to solving a lot of problems. But I still see race as the foundation.

  79. 79
    Morzer says:

    @Baud:

    Look, if you think the joke was inartful, or that Moore could have made his point without quoting it, fine, but what on earth is the point when people put words in Moore’s mouth, flame him for what he didn’t say and then get enraged when people ask for an accurate quotation in its full context. These things matter.

  80. 80
    Jenny says:

    @AlphaLiberal:

    Disagreeing with someone doesn’t give you license to invoke any kind of negative stereotypes (gender, race, religion, etc.).

  81. 81
    AlphaLiberal says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: ABL and the other Obama Defenders have been lambasting Obama critics who did exactly that, freely using insults and false accusations:

    “@AlphaLiberal: Then disagree with him, disagree with the policies and lay off the racial shit.”

    Hey, glad to see the sign of fight in him, hope it lasts. Love that he’s going into GOP districts. Wish the policies were stronger and unabashedly Keynesian.

  82. 82
    doofus says:

    @Morzer: i.e. the hard-nosed fighter who is good at politics and gets stuff done.

    Your interpretation of what he meant by “govern like a black man” (in the context of reacting to Republican’s knocking away the olive branch) is extremely charitable to Moore. Y

  83. 83
    Morzer says:

    @Jenny:

    How is suggesting that a black man can get the job done politically invoking a negative sterotype?

  84. 84
    TFinSF says:

    @Morzer:

    It isn’t derogatory to black men to say that we want to see more of the black man – i.e. the hard-nosed fighter who is good at politics and gets stuff done.

    Tell me more about these race-based personality traits endemic to to black folk. Some of us weren’t aware that melanin content correlated positively with hardness of nose.

  85. 85
    lamh32 says:

    @Morzer:

    It isn’t derogatory to black men to say that we want to see more of the black man – i.e. the hard-nosed fighter…

    At what point is Obama NOT a black man though? this is where the racial stereotyping comes in. So when Obama is being a “hard-nosed fighter” that’s the Black side of him? And when he “concilliatory” to GOP that’s the white side of him?

    I’m sorry, but I’m not white, but if I was, even I would be insulted by that comparison.

  86. 86
    magma says:

    @Morzer: That’s my impression.

  87. 87
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @AlphaLiberal: I have to smile, because one of the training videos at the company I work at was about everyone, including the black manager, treating a white male like he was frail because he was older than everyone else in the group by a number of years. The man wanted to quit. When he talked to the manager, the manager realized that he had been part of it, and had to work to keep the guy from quitting.

    So, yes, we have to ultimately deal with all of it. Though, as a white guy – though I can’t stand suits – I’ll honestly say I haven’t been paying attention to any suit jokes. You’ll have to tell me those.

  88. 88
    Morzer says:

    @doofus:

    Why? Moore clarified his meaning. He didn’t call Obama a gangster, despite various efforts on here to pretend otherwise. If anything, what he said showed more respect for black men than for white men.

  89. 89
    seabe says:

    Also, another reason I give Moore a lot less leeway here is because of his diary at Daily Kos a while back. I remember him arguing that “black people of all people should understand when it comes to marriage equality.” I wish I had the diary…I can’t remember which one it was. I also can’t remember the exact topic.

  90. 90
    Baud says:

    @Morzer: I couldn’t care less about what Moore says, and I probably wouldn’t have reacted as ABL did, although I haven’t lived her life so I’m not going to judge her. In my view, if some Republican had tried (inartfully) to make a similar joke, we’d be using it as proof of GOP racism.

  91. 91
    Shawn in ShowMe says:

    @doofus:

    In the Bizarro World of white supremacists, any act of participation is an act of confrontation. That’s the entire point. That’s why actual confrontation is not required to get one’s point across. Crazy people will do your work for you.

  92. 92
    mediumtex says:

    Lighten up ABL. At least he didn’t eat him.

  93. 93
    Morzer says:

    @TFinSF:

    Tell me more about honest interpretation, quoting people in context and not trying to find something racially offensive at the least excuse.

  94. 94
    MattR says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): In doing that it was also telling the LGBT folks that they should not be upset at Obama because he is doing the best he can. Is that argument fair or pragmatic? Maybe. Maybe not. Doesn’t really matter. Either way ABL was telling the LGBT community how they were supposed to respond to Obama. There really is not much difference between that and Southern Beale commenting in this thread that we are better off politically by ignoring Maher and Moore’s statements to focus on the real battles.

  95. 95
    micah616 says:

    @Morzer: How is suggesting that all Asians are good at math and science invoking a negative stereotype?

    How is suggesting that all gay men are have great fashion sense invoking a negative stereotype?

  96. 96
  97. 97
    Jenny says:

    If Palin or Glenn Beck had said this, no one would be giving them a pass.

    Beck lost all his sponsors because liberals were outraged when Beck said “Obama is a racist with a deep hated of white people” and they launched a successful boycott.

    Don’t give up your principals because it’s some one you like.

  98. 98
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Morzer:

    It isn’t derogatory to black men to say that we want to see more of the black man

    When I was in the Navy, nigger was completely banned as a word. No one, not even blacks, could say it. (I’m pretty sure it’s still that way now.) The general statement they used about words or phrases is that if it is wrong for anyone to say it, then it is wrong for everyone to say it.

  99. 99
    Morzer says:

    @Baud:

    If Fox had quoted Obama this way, out of context and adding in some racially loaded language, we would all be angry about it, and justifiably so. Why should we not extend the same standards of full disclosure, accurate quotation and fair framing to Moore?

  100. 100
    jl says:

    @Morzer: You make some good points, but you convey them with what seem to me to be some arbitrary racial stereotypes.

    Why is the black men ‘the hard-nosed fighter who is good at politics and gets stuff done’?

    Isn’t that the Irish machine politician ward heeler, minus the booze? Or the Polish union organizer slugging it out with the Pinkerton dicks outside the steel mills?

    I think racial stereotypes are so arbitrary, and so easily co opted for purposes of misdirection, that it is best to avoid them.

  101. 101
    magma says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): I understand your point.

  102. 102
    Baud says:

    @Morzer: Didn’t ABL post the whole video. Fox would never do that.

  103. 103
    Morzer says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    By that standard, one person can censor an entire community. Not that this is relevant to the central point here: Moore wasn’t saying that Obama was weak/wrong/a failure/evil or anything else negative because he was black. What he wanted was more of the positive side of Obama – which Maher’s joke framed as the black man. How it is insulting to a black man to be considered a positive force politically, heaven only knows.

  104. 104
    salacious crumb says:

    oh you are the daughter of a mixed race couple, so that gives you legitimacy to comment on issue of race, with the expectation that people assume you are right? Jeez, Im gonna look to Michael Steele to get my opinions on issues affecting black Americans then!

    Clearly you had no problem cheering Michael Moore when he was a vehement Obama supporter and an unabashed Bush hater. but now that he takes time to view his opinion on Obama, which isn’t fawning, like you demand that he and Glenn Greenwald be, then of course the only logical result of your thinking..he is racist!!

  105. 105
    texascowgirl says:

    @Morzer:

    And what does that have to do with race? And how do you know how any other black man would be acting? Have we had any other black presidents? And are you aware that black Americans are actually less liberal than white Democrats? And do you know how many fights we don’t have that we could have on a regular basis? We are no more fighters than anybody else. I guess you think the Civil Right’s protesters were weak for not fighting their enemies the same with the same tactics used against them as well? Obama is more MLK in his tactics than people seem to realize. And Malcolm X never really used any real aggression to get his point across either. He was a lot like Obama, calm, cerebral, gentlemanly, slow and steady. Barack Obama is behaving like a black man. And more importantly, like himself.

  106. 106
    Morzer says:

    @Baud:

    Sure, but just when did Moore call for a gangster Obama? Maybe my evil oppressor ears cut that bit of the tape, but I don’t recall it. I still want to know why framing a black man as a force for political good should be considered offensive. Or are we really saying that any mention of race ought to be off-limits?

  107. 107
    Midnight Marauder says:

    @AlphaLiberal:

    So how about the political statements regarding white males, old white guys, white guys in suits, etc?
    __
    Because those jokes are the parents to this one.

    What in the world…? I am pretty sure this is actually a salient criticism of the modern Republican Party, that they are a party almost entirely run by old, heterosexual, Christian white men. And as such, they possess no ability or inclination to see the world from the perspective of any of the multitude of groups their policies actively seek to harm.

    Those “jokes” aren’t the parent of anything. They are just a long time basic fact regarding the world we live in.

  108. 108
    Morzer says:

    @texascowgirl:

    If you are determined to find an insult in considering a black man strong and effective politically, which was how Moore framed it, I don’t know what can be said to make you happy. Fine, stipulate that any mention of race is evil. Will that content you?

  109. 109

    Dumbass Moore stepped in it and ought to mea culpa. Obama fights with his brane, and that is okay by me. Once was the season for statesmanship, and “olive branches” or going through those motions, and now is season for bareknuckle campaigning. Not one soul on this board can do it better than the Obama team. But the suggestions otherwise can be quite entertaining.

  110. 110
    Raven (formerly stuckinred) says:

    My head hurts.

  111. 111
    Jax6655 says:

    Then disagree with him, disagree with the policies and lay off the racial shit

    This.

    People would do better stay away from race

    This is the dumbest shit on this entire thread. How does a person of color “stay away from race?”

    Also, too. Fuck Michael Moore. Pres. Obama’s race is no more relevant to his politics than MM’s size. Dumbass.

    SMH

    edited to more accurately state my point

  112. 112
    Cacti says:

    I like Mike, but he swallowed his tenni’s on this one.

  113. 113
    Dennis G. says:

    Amen ABL. Amen

  114. 114
    harlana says:

    i think Moore’s disingenuousness is highlighted by the fact that he gave republicans a big wet kiss for passionately loving the country every bit as much as Michael Moore!

    in these times? really?

  115. 115
    pete says:

    ABL, thank you for bringing this to our attention.

    Moore screwed up, in a way that I think a lot of generally-left people have and do and will. This really ought to be a classic “teachable moment” but unfortunately some of the commenters here are apparently not ready to listen and learn. Which means, sadly, it’s a teachable moment for me: Some people who I do think are basically good are not only, at best, clueless on the subject of their own racism, but actively resist education. That’s really sad.

  116. 116
    whitney says:

    @Morzer:

    You’re right he wasn’t saying that Obama was weak/wrong/failure because he was black. He was saying that he was weak/wrong and a failure because he wasn’t black enough. And that is nonsense. And offensive.

  117. 117
    Jenny says:

    @Morzer: how is it a negative stereotype to say blacks excel at athletics and dancing?

    how is it a negative stereotype to say jews are good with money?

  118. 118
    Baud says:

    @Morzer: I don’t think race should be used in serious discussion as a shorthand for personal characteristics.

    Although I can’t read ABL’s mind, I bet one thing that’s driving her criticism is the feeling, justified or not, that if a white president had the accomplishments that Obama has had, people like Moore would not be accusing the President of being weak.

  119. 119
    Morzer says:

    @jl:

    I am not saying – and have not said – that all black men possess certain qualities. I am saying that Moore’s view – inartfully phrased by Bill Maher’s joke – is that Obama – qua a black man – is politically effective. A fighter, if you want to use a common term. Is it really offensive to think that a black man, or black men are fighters? That they make politics work for them?

  120. 120
    MattR says:

    @texascowgirl: I suppose you could look at it as saying that the white part of Obama represents “The Man” and the black part is the “Hope and Change”. I have no idea what Moore was thinking, but having heard Maher’s repeated references to Obama’s race I am confident he said black to mean “acting tough” (Maher has another joke about how he would feel better if the Secret Service was thugged up with Suge Knight looking guys and that every rapper should have to give up a member of their posse to be part of Obama’s security.)

  121. 121
    doofus says:

    @Morzer: Can you point out where he clarified his meaning? From what I heard, it went from Joy talking about Angry Black Man to Barbara talking about how Obama’s mother trained him how to react to bigots to Moore talking about how Obama should govern like a black man to Barbara trying to talk about his book to Moore talking about how Republicans care for America.

  122. 122
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Midnight Marauder:
    @AlphaLiberal:

    Jokes about a dominant group are inherently different than jokes about a non-dominant group.

  123. 123
    Raven (formerly stuckinred) says:

    @Dennis G.: sent you an email earlier.

  124. 124
    Jax6655 says:

    @Jenny:

    Jenny,
    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to post and remove all doubt

  125. 125
    ABL says:

    So much whitesplanation, so little time!

    I’m out of this thread. You can catch me on Twitter or on my blog.

  126. 126
  127. 127
    Emma says:

    @Morzer: you either really don’t get it, you’re a troll, or you’re something worse.

    Follow here: I have lived in the US since 1970. Chicago. The first stereotype I learned was that black men were angry, combative, and prone to violence. When Moore says that he expected the President should act more like a black man, a large swath of the country, especially people of color, are going to flash on to that stereotype.

  128. 128
    whitney says:

    @Morzer: Any more than white men? Or asian men?

    Don’t you understand that assigning positive (although how you get positive outta that statement is beyond me) characteristics to groups is just as offensive?

    This is just embarrassing.

    smh

  129. 129
    Jax6655 says:

    Where was Whoopi???

  130. 130
    Morzer says:

    @Jenny:

    No. It would be a negative stereotype to say that was ALL they excelled at doing. Bear in mind that Maher and Moore aren’t trying to provide a taxonomy of races here. What’s being said is that they wish Obama would stop trying to compromise and pander and generally take us all down the road of wishy-washy failure. Maybe you disagree with this assessment of Obama. If so, fine. However, it’s unfair to say that Moore called for Obama to be a gangster. If you don’t like the idea of suggesting that black men are politically effective, fine, but it seems more complimentary than not.

  131. 131
    Cacti says:

    @Morzer:

    Is it really offensive to think that a black man, or black men are fighters?

    Well, one of the more popular racist tropes is that black men are violent thugs…

    So I’m guh have to say, YES!

  132. 132
    lamh32 says:

    @ABL:

    I hear ya. you are a better person than me for even attempting to have these discussion here.

  133. 133
    Raven (formerly stuckinred) says:

    @lamh32: Well, she is an angry black lady.

  134. 134
    lamh32 says:

    @Jax6655: She was there sitting right next to Joy Behar.

  135. 135
    MattR says:

    @ABL:

    I’m out of this thread.

    I’m impressed you lasted this long before making that proclamation.

  136. 136
    Chris says:

    @Jenny:

    how is it a negative stereotype to say blacks excel at athletics and dancing?

    how is it a negative stereotype to say jews are good with money?

    I usually stay out of the ABL-related war zones, but this is one thing I’d think is fairly obvious: it’s bad because it implies a correlation between your ethnic heritage and your ability or tendency to do certain things. It implies that you can tell how somebody’s going to do at something just by looking at their ethnic group. In other words, it implies belief in racial determinism, so even if that’s not what the speaker means, it’s generally considered a good idea not to go there.

    By me, at least.

  137. 137
    Lihtox says:

    @Southern Beale: If ABL were really “bashing” Moore, she’d have called him a racist so-and-so who should burn in hell, a traitor to the cause, something like that. She didn’t: she called out the comment for being racist (which it was, though probably an example of poor judgement rather than maliciousness), and demanded an apology. Nothing wrong about any of that, as far as I can see.

  138. 138
    LT says:

    The fact that you go after Moore and not hte guy who originally said it – I don’t get.

  139. 139
    Trainrunner says:

    I voted for the pre-menopausal Hillary but got the post-menopausal Hillary.

    That’s not sexist, is it?

  140. 140
    Laertes says:

    It was a dumbass thing for Moore to say, and Moore is a pretty high-profile guy, so when he mainstreams casual dumbass racism it’s worthwhile to push back.

    The record will show that I’m no great fan of ABL’s, but this post isn’t an example of her worst work.

  141. 141
    whitney says:

    @Jax6655: check out the vid. she was PISSED. Didn’t say another word.

  142. 142
    Linnaeus says:

    Even if I understand what Moore’s trying to get at – and I think I do – he stumbled badly. Time for him to reconsider that quote.

  143. 143
    Morzer says:

    @whitney:

    I’d say it was pretty embarrassing for you to persistently misinterpret what other people say. If you find it racially offensive for someone to take a positive view of a person’s race, fine, go back to the days when people said negative things about different races and see whether you feel happier. My view is that liberals/progressives (call them what you like) ought not to go down the futile road of ginning up gratuitous outrage when, for all their faults, Moore and Maher were saying something positive about black men and their capacity for political effectiveness. If you want to go down that road, it’s your choice and it’s a free country – but it isn’t going to do anything but poison the well for the future.

  144. 144
    lamh32 says:

    @Emma: my vote is on either being a troll or just being completely obtuse in thinking just because he/she can?

  145. 145
    micah616 says:

    @Morzer:

    What’s being said is that they wish Obama would stop trying to compromise and pander and generally take us all down the road of wishy-washy failure.

    Then why not just say exactly that? Why does it come down to race? Where does race even enter the picture there? Moore said some racist shit. It doesn’t matter how much you like his work, what he said, or qouted if that make you feel better, was racist. Full stop. Own up to it and stop excusing bigotry just because the guy is on “our” side.

  146. 146
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @LT: Is this a serious objection?

  147. 147
    Morzer says:

    @Cacti:

    If you want to impose a racist trope on what Moore actually said, go for it. Fox News has done this to Democrats for a long time. Are you happy to do the same thing?

  148. 148
    Dan says:

    So says the woman that capitalizes on this stereotype by calling herself Angry Black Lady.

  149. 149
    Matthew says:

    You’re the daughter of a mixed-race couple? Then you’re not really an angry Black lady, are you? You’re an angry biracial lady, and I think you owe all true angry black ladies an apology. You’re certainly in no position to be demanding an apology on behalf of a racial group to which you don’t actually belong except if one accepts the sketchy standards of racist slaveholders.

    By the way, it is fucking funny.

  150. 150
    tam1MI says:

    I might be more inclined to censure Mr. Moore for his statement if his attempt to expand and clarify his point hadn’t been completely cut off by Barbara Walters (who then proceeds chide HIM for interrupting HER when she has just interrupted HIM!) so she could luxuriate in the sound of her own voice. I’ve seen her do that numerous times to guests on THE VIEW who are trying to get their points across, in that regard she’s like the female Bill O’Reilly. So in light of the fact that Moore had no chance to say what it was he meant to say, I’m withholding judgement.

  151. 151
    Morzer says:

    @micah616:

    It doesn’t come down to race, unless you are determined to pick up on one thing which was inartfully said and ignore the main point. Who knows, maybe it wouldn’t even have mattered if Moore hadn’t quoted the joke. Maybe the criticism of Obama for endlessly compromising and looking weak would have been enough to provoke the accusations. It doesn’t really take much when someone wants to find fault. God knows, the GOP have taught us that time after time. You’d think we might just be smart enough not to do it to ourselves, but maybe some of us want to save the GOP the work of getting Democrats to fight.

  152. 152
    Raven (formerly stuckinred) says:

    @tam1MI: And Baba Wawa got around.

  153. 153
    OzoneR says:

    This is doubly offensive, both stereotyping black people are thugs and white people as weak.

  154. 154
    lamh32 says:

    @Matthew:

    and with this comment. like ABL…outtie five-thousie.

    I’d rather watch American’s Next Top Models. Enjoy the thread.

  155. 155
    magma says:

    @Morzer: Dude, I get the general point you are trying to make. Now, stop digging!

  156. 156
    Cain says:

    I’ve always found that it’s always best to avoid references of any type to racial stereotypes. If you don’t like what the president said, just say so in simple english and say why.

    It’s just not that funny, and on the internets we meet here all the time but really we don’t really know each other. So any joke or reference can go quite flat.

    Best to leave sleeping dragons lie. As lamh32, we don’t knwo what it’s like to be discriminated every day as part of our lives. I don’t know how that feels.

    Peace out.

  157. 157
    ABL says:

    @Matthew: i’m adopted, asshole.

  158. 158
    LT says:

    This seems to be more about “EMOPROG!!!”, and I hold your own record as evidence, and you’re opening: “I’m so disappointed coulda-shoulda-woulda armchair quarterbacking.”

    The very essence of the “YOU’RE AN EMOPROG!!!” set is that nobody can ever have a good motive for criticism. It is always suspect. And that is broken.

  159. 159
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Matthew: Are you an idiot or do you just play one on the web?

  160. 160
    Jenny says:

    @Jax6655: If you click on to what I was replying to you’ll see I was pointing out how all stereotypes are foolish.

  161. 161
    whitney says:

    @Morzer: What I would like is for people to not have any impression of me at ALL because of my race. I would prefer, instead, for people to judge me on my behavior.

    What should be embarrassing for you is your paternalistic and condescending attitude. What white characteristics should we celebrate?

    This is absurd.

  162. 162
    AA+ Bonds says:

    I can’t possibly care about this. I’m really unsure of the existence of this Moore/Maher constituency that might care about it. I bet some Republicans are pretty big on the whole thing.

  163. 163
    Jenny says:

    @Chris: Exactly. Which is why I was showing that all stereotypes are ridiculous, even ones though by some to be “positive”.

  164. 164
    Swishalicious says:

    @ABL:

    I’m continually impressed by ABL, because all of her posts are a microcosm of all of her other posts – there is perfect symmetry, inevitably stoking a flamewar and her huffing away to “her blog” or “the twittermachine.”

  165. 165
  166. 166
    sistermoon says:

    @JWL:
    Huh????

  167. 167
    Strandedvandal says:

    So basically, it doesn’t matter what ABL posts, she could write a post about firefighters saving puppies by giving them CPR and the douchebag fail parade is going to pop over and crap all over it. You friggin people are pathetic. Really, you are pathetic.

  168. 168
    LT says:

    I lost a comment somewhere. I think the fact that you go after Moore, rather than Maher, is a bit suspect. (Your update notwithstanding.) One can’t go after Maher on this because he’s a provacative dick for living. It’s what he does. (And a lot of other comedians too.) To go after Moore – it just doesn’t seem straight.

  169. 169
    Morzer says:

    @magma:

    I am trying to get us out of this wretched mess. All these futile little internal fights achieve is to amuse the GOP mightily. They don’t even need to lift a finger to get us swinging at each other, rather than fighting the real battles against the real racists, the real exploiters of American labor, the real wreckers of the economy. Michael Moore said something clumsily and you guys want to flame him for it, rather than thinking of who the real enemies are here. That’s digging a mighty big hole for ourselves.

  170. 170
    AkaDad says:

    Keep bashing Obama and when Rick Perry is elected, don’t come crying/whining/bitching/complaining to us.

  171. 171
    Raven (formerly stuckinred) says:

    @Morzer: Aw come on, nobody reads all this bullshit.

  172. 172
    ABL says:

    @Dan: The “Angry” part comes from the pituitary tumor in my brain, which i have explained — repeatedly.

    It’s just fail after fail and derp after derp over here.

    It’s hilarious and pathetic.

    i’m out. most of the people that are now chiming in i have pied anyway. what a waste of time.

  173. 173
    Chris says:

    @Jenny:

    Ahhh, OK. I’m sorry, I must’ve missed a few posts, I thought you were asking that sincerely rather than making a point. Apologies.

  174. 174
    handy says:

    So what Moore seemed to be saying that because Obama was half African-American, he had an opportunity to be a greater leader in the mold of an FDR or MLK. OK, somewhat dubious premise and racially tone deaf.

    But does anyone care to react to what he was saying in the beginning? That Obama’s presidency has been to hold the olive branch to the opposition only to repeatedly get his hand slapped? No? Are we just content to conclude that it’s high time to join our friends in the Tea Party and dismiss him outright because Michael Moore is fat, and now apparently racist too?

  175. 175
    sistermoon says:

    @micah616:
    Thank you.

  176. 176
    mark says:

    Well then, the “angry” part sure fits. To quote Ben Franklin “What begins in anger, ends in shame”

    Blew the whole thing way out of proportion, sheesh!

  177. 177
    Morzer says:

    @whitney:

    It’s absurd for you to defend mis-interpretation. It’s absurd for you to make personally patronizing remarks. It’s absurd for you to spend this time obsessing over your personal standard of political correctness and trying to impose it on the rest of us.

  178. 178
    LT says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I elaborated further down.

    ABL does a really lot of the “EMOPROGS!” thing. (Cole does it some too.) I find it fundamentally dishonest.

  179. 179
    magma says:

    @Swishalicious: Mandelbrotian

  180. 180
    aisce says:

    jesus morzer, give it a rest already. stop digging. also, since when do you post 18 times in every single thread lately? that’s toko-loko levels.

    i get a kick out of how much i was screamed at when i said that the root of this persistent disconnect between abl and the commenters was that portions of this site are just too white to interface with what she wants to talk about. and then only lamh32 and i think elie saw that it wasn’t some slur against the site or attempt to shut down future discussion. i don’t want to be defeatist but things aren’t getting any easier or more charitable with time.

  181. 181
    AA+ Bonds says:

    Michael Moore and Bill Maher sure are some racist white guys, the type who think they’re way too down to be racist.

    Then again, all one has to do to know that is consume pretty much anything either of them has ever created.

  182. 182
    Morzer says:

    @Raven (formerly stuckinred):

    You know, I really hope that’s true, because some of the self-righteous nonsense on here is alarming. I used to think the teabaggers had a monopoly on racial craziness, but I am beginning to seriously doubt it. Either way, this pointless flame war can burn itself out in its own sad time. Might as well go and sign up for Elizabeth Warren’s campaign and let the haters do their hating undisturbed.

  183. 183

    i think joy behar punked him on the lead in, but he should have stayed with the olive branches, and kept out of the racial context she introduced.

  184. 184
    Morzer says:

    @aisce:

    Well, given that you are calling people “too white”, I think you’d be better off taking a look at some of your own racism.

  185. 185
    magma says:

    @MorzerAgreed-but it’s time to move on.

  186. 186
    micah616 says:

    @Morzer: So even though Michael Moore said some racist shit, I’m supposed to ignore that he said some racist shit and believe that even if he didn’t say anything racist, we’d still be accusing him of being a racist anyway because of the GOP? I’m extra confused.

    And it does come down to race, not because I’m determined to find racism, but because Michael Moore said some racist shit on a daytime talk show watched by millions of people.

  187. 187
    AA+ Bonds says:

    Pretty much all American white people are racist. It’s not because they’re white, but because they grew up in a society that privileged their whiteness and rewarded them for racism.

    It doesn’t mean they’re bad people. It means they have to pay attention to what they do and say if they want to be good people. This is a good general rule to follow anyway, no matter who you are.

  188. 188
    ZenPoseur says:

    Are you shitting me? Michael Moore called Obama an Oreo on The View, and people are rushing to split hairs, equivocate, and defend him?

    Whatever he meant by it, whomever he was quoting, MICHAEL MOORE CALLED OBAMA AN OREO ON THE FUCKING VIEW.

    How do you not see that this is a bad thing?

  189. 189
    Raven (formerly stuckinred) says:

    @Morzer: Take it to the bank. People here are political junkies. Most people don’t know and don’t care about 99% of the shit that goes down here. I think it’s a great place but, as far as some kind of influence, nahhhhhhhh.

  190. 190
    handy says:

    @AA+ Bonds:

    Hmm not sure if this is snark or not but I watched Fahrenheit 911 at a cinema that A) was predominantly African-American, B) was packed, and C) received a standing ovation from the entire house. Not saying I buy everything the guy sells (literally and figuratively), but I fail to find racist subtext in his work.

  191. 191
    Valdivia says:

    It is staggering to me how every single thread ends up being about how this is petty and people should get over it. Really?
    As a latina I have to say it’s enraging to read that shit. Thank you ABL for posting on this. It’s truly baffling to me how reflexive the reaction is that nothing a ‘liberal’ says counts as racist. Just incredible and actually disgusting.

    Also: @lamh32: I love reading you.

  192. 192
    Jenny says:

    I voted for Hillary because I thought she would be feminine, instead, she turned out to be masculine.

    That’s not negative, is it?

  193. 193
    Trainrunner says:

    Everyone’s a little bit racist.

    Everyone’s a little bit sexist.

    Everyone’s a little bit homophobic.

  194. 194

    But does anyone care to react to what he was saying in the beginning? That Obama’s presidency has been to hold the olive branch to the opposition only to repeatedly get his hand slapped? No?

    So? BFD. He and dems went ahead and passed HCR. the Stimulus, and a bunch of other shit without any cooperation from the GOP. Or very little. You must suffer the delusion that George Bush did not do much the same thing, before the GOP congress passed their shit.

  195. 195
    LT says:

    @AkaDad:

    Keep bashing Obama and when Rick Perry is elected, don’t come crying/whining/bitching/complaining to us.

    Keep bashing Obama and when a hurricane hits NY, don’t come crying/whining/bitching/complaining to us.

    Keep bashing Obama and when Tebow wins the Super Bowl , don’t come crying/whining/bitching/complaining to us.

    Keep bashing Obama and when ____________, don’t come crying/whining/bitching/complaining to us.

    It really works for anything, doesn’t it?

  196. 196
    lamh32 says:

    @aisce:

    I always like to let people in on a little secret. Black people are more than willing to have a “conversation about race” with other people, we literally talk about it a lot of the time. We talk about it with other Black people and we even talk about it with non-Black people, but it has been my experience that alot of the conversation evolves into this type of thread. And it’s one of the reason why we don’t talk about it unless we are asked honestly for our opinions.

    But like all feeling/emotions that are bottle up overtime it becomes a pressure-cooker and just one more psi and the cooker explodes and we cannot contain our outrage. We have to say something, even if it devolves into a thread like this.

    It is, where I think ABL is coming from when she says she done with this thread.

  197. 197
    Raven (formerly stuckinred) says:

    @AA+ Bonds: There’s a bit more to it than what we “say”. It’s in the head and the heart. I’m not claiming NOT to be racist just because I watch what I say.

  198. 198
    Wee Bey says:

    I’d like to see more of the filmmaker and less of the fat, blithering idiot.

  199. 199
    Jax6655 says:

    Michael Moore and Bill Maher sure are some racist white guys, the type who think they’re way too down to be racist.

    Yep.

    Along with all of their apologists on this site.

    G’nite all.

  200. 200
    handy says:

    @Trainrunner:

    I’m a little bit country but a lot more bit rock’n’roll.

  201. 201
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: What works though is white people tell people of color what they should/shouldn’t be angry about = straight people tell LGBT people what they should/shouldn’t be angry about. I think that’s Matt R’s point.

  202. 202
    Valdivia says:

    @ZenPoseur:

    exactly! It is fucking unbelievable. Just wow!

  203. 203
    nellcote says:

    “I thought when we elected the first black president, as a comedian, I thought that two years in that I’d be making jokes what a ‘gangsta’ he was. You know. And not that he’s President Wayne Brady, you know, I thought we were getting Suge Knight,” Bill Maher said on CNN.

    Suge Knight is the founder of Death Row Records and has been arrested numerous times and two prison sentences. In recent years, Knight has been arrested on drug and assault charges.

  204. 204
    AA+ Bonds says:

    @handy:

    I found Religulous to be noxious when it dealt with non-white Muslims, and I think Fahrenheit 9/11 was about as bad about Arabs when it was talking about the bin Laden family.

    I at least enjoyed the very end of Maher’s film, and I certainly think the Saudi aspect of 9/11 snuck away from the news media under the government’s coat jacket. But both movies used snide racial shorthand that I found, well, unsurprising from two very self-absorbed white guys.

  205. 205
    Swishalicious says:

    You are so cool, how does one get one’s own “blog”?

  206. 206
    doofus says:

    @handy: While Moore filled the middle of this clip with the repetition of a mildly offensive joke about how he expected a black president to be a fighter, he did start out with Republicans swatting away the olive branch. But at the end he spent time talking about how Republicans love America and that while he wouldn’t vote for a Republican, he is not necessarily gonna vote for Obama. So I am not sure how much of a friend he is to Democrats.

  207. 207
  208. 208
    Lysana says:

    @Valdivia: With you. VERY with you.

    Seriously, I don’t have to read anything else in here. Predictable racist bullshit is predictable. Don’t want to be called out for racism? Stop. Sounding. Racist. Want to know what’s racist? If a person of color calls it out, TRUST THEM.

    And that’s my dose of shouting into the wind for the week.

  209. 209
    AA+ Bonds says:

    @Raven (formerly stuckinred):

    I’m pretty sure you’re agreeing with me?

  210. 210
    Blahblah says:

    Sometimes I get mad at the things comedians say and less funny people repeat, too.

  211. 211
    micah616 says:

    @sistermoon: Somebody needed to say it.

  212. 212
    AkaDad says:

    @LT:

    It really works for anything, doesn’t it?

    No, it doesn’t. None of that other stuff is going to get us a Republican President.

  213. 213
    Keith G says:

    @Emma:

    @Morzer: you either really don’t get it, you’re a troll, or you’re something worse.

    Oh for fuck sake woman. Morzer has been around here a long time adding more wit, insight and intelligence to our conversations than many who have just popped in during the last few months.

    Please just stop acting this way. You (and many others, lately) should be able to disagree and debate without labeling the other.

    Tell me: what are you advocating by using:

    “..or something worse”?

    Cole, is your house on fire again?

  214. 214
    MikeJ says:

    It’s bizarre that the same people who recognize that “Michael Moore is fat hurfdurf” is a moronic argument don’t have a problem with “Obama should be more gangsta”.

  215. 215
    handy says:

    @General Stuck:

    So, here we are then, looking at Obama and Congress’s record of passing a weak health care bill, a half-assed stimulus plan and extended the Bush tax cuts with the GOP’s help, facing a double dip recession. But, you’re right Stuck, Michael Moore is fat and racist so BFD.

  216. 216
    Three-nineteen says:

    @Morzer: Moore stated that when Obama acts one way, he’s being “white”, and when he acts another way, he’s being “black”. How is that not a racist trope?

  217. 217
    AA+ Bonds says:

    I am just curious why the fuck anyone listens to either of these guys anymore on anything more substantive than new Doritos flavors

  218. 218
    LT says:

    “I voted for the black guy and what we got was the white guy.”

    Sets out to offend black and white, really.

  219. 219
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Chris: My comment to Omnes is not to say I don’t endorse this view:

    one thing I’d think is fairly obvious: it’s bad because it implies a correlation between your ethnic heritage and your ability or tendency to do certain things. It implies that you can tell how somebody’s going to do at something just by looking at their ethnic group. In other words, it implies belief in racial determinism, so even if that’s not what the speaker means, it’s generally considered a good idea not to go there.

    I agree wholeheartedly. And my head hurts too.

  220. 220
    aisce says:

    @ lamh32

    i’m mystified that everybody keeps wanting to play the same roles in the same play every single time.

    lt, mattr, alphaliberal, etc., it’s the exact same thread every time, no matter who/what the original topic was. i would have thought after anne laurie’s public humiliation we would have at least earned a couple of weeks’ respite.

  221. 221
    Raven (formerly stuckinred) says:

    @AA+ Bonds: I think, I’m old, I’m going to sleep.

  222. 222
    AA+ Bonds says:

    Hey I’m Michael Moore and I make movies. Join me and Michael Bay and George Romero as we discuss what the President is like and what you should think of him. Special guest Bill Maher who is sleeping on the couch.

  223. 223
    whitney says:

    @Morzer:
    well now that i’ve been put in my place by one who “knows” racism and the evil ways of political correctness better (having, i’m sure, experienced it in all its myriad forms) , i’ll just slink away.

    what the fuck ever, dude.

  224. 224
    Trainrunner says:

    Maher has also said, numerous times, that Malia and Sasha would never get pregnant early and out of wedlock because Michelle would “slap the black” off them.

    Not racist. Not a bit.

    And he’s a huge homophobe, too. Still.

  225. 225
    AA+ Bonds says:

    Another fact about Michael Moore is that all his books are not only hilariously short and terribly written, they are also poorly copy-edited and riddled with typos.

  226. 226
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .
    All I said was, Michael Moore isn’t fit to hold ABL’s jockstrap. I can’t believe she censored me for that.
    .
    .

  227. 227
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I know, but, FWIW, I did not think ABL was telling anyone how to feel, but rather suggesting acting unthinkingly on those feelings could well result in something worse.

  228. 228

    @handy:

    I would not characterize either the Stimulus or ACA as “weak bills”, though not ideal, but solid progress.

    The thing is, the compromising that happened with those passed bills was entirely done with other democrats. NOT republicans. So the “olive branch” narrative from folks like Moore is completely inert politically the past 3 years. Except for reasons of pure optics, having little to nothing to do with actually legislating.

  229. 229
    doofus says:

    @aisce: It does seem like it, don’t it?

  230. 230
    cynn says:

    OMG. I’m living in Flatland.

  231. 231
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I figured you did, and I missed the thread in question, so I should have stayed the hell out of it.

  232. 232
    ppcli says:

    I rarely comment on these threads because I find the noise level too high. I mention this so that no one will suggest I am here as an unreflective ABL-cheerleader. Probably if I kept track of these things, I would find myself to have disagreed with ABL’s posts slightly more often than I agreed with them.

    We need to be self-aware: we see, and laugh at, Conservative’s blind spots, but we need to be aware of our own. Conservatives often act as if they, or the people they support, need not be bound by certain moral rules because they are concerned with morality in general. They forgive David Witter because he says the right things about “Morality” or professes Christianity of the approved type. A good Christian can’t sin like that, and if improbably, such a sin does happen, it is forgiven by God immediately upon request from the believer.

    But we have similar beams in our eye. One of them is the idea that if someone says and believes the right things about racism in general, they can’t say racist things. Only people who aren’t openly and loudly opposed to racism can say racist things. So use the obvious test: ask yourself how you would react if Jim DeMint or Haley Barbour said something like this. I’d be appalled. In my heart I’m more willing to forgive Moore: he’s fought the good fight, he’s on our side more or less, etc. But the fact remains, he made an unnervingly racist remark.

    To take a man who is a hero to the black community – dissect his qualities into a “black side” and a “white side”, and to suggest that it is the black side that is really badass and confrontational. Like FDR (?!). Who should step into the spotlight when the diplomatic, consensus-seeking white side is disrespected…. I’m genuinely surprised that it isn’t obvious to everyone that this is out of bounds.

    Also it is unfair to jump on ABL for mentioning her biracial origins. What has been said so far in this connection is not just tone-deaf but also simply petty and mean. Her point wasn’t hard to grasp: She, like Obama, is biracial, and so she finds especially hurtful and belittling those remarks that condescend to and mock-analyse biracial persons in terms of their purported “black” traits and their “white” traits.

    I can understand ABL’s frustration at having to spell all this out.

  233. 233
    mclaren says:

    Injecting race into it represented insensitivity on Michael Moore’s part. That doesn’t make him a racist.

    Moore reiterates something most liberals feel in their gut. We voted for a progressive candidate who made lots of promises to do things the opposite of John McCain, and what we got for the most part was John McCain’s policies.

    Not 100%. John McCain would’ve pushed to bomb or invade Iran. Obama didn’t. John McCain wouldn’t have pushed through a useless non-reform HCR bill — he wouldn’t have done anything about health care at all. Not that it makes a difference, since forcing people to buy private insurance guaranteed to rise infinitely in price with no cost controls is the same as doing nothing to fix health care.

    John McCain wouldn’t have made the inspiring speeches that Barack Obama did. If we go by Obama’s speeches, he’s a great president. Sadly, Obama has made a habit of saying one thing and then doing the opposite.

    A lot of liberals feel that way. I don’t plan to vote for Obama in 2012. Michael Moore probably feels the same way I do. If we’re going to get torture and endless war and infinite expansion of the military-police-terror-surveillance state and endless destruction of our basic constitutional rights and cuts in medicare and medicaid and more tax cuts for the rich, we might as well get someone in the White House who comes right out and says he’s going to do these evil counterproductive things. Instead of someone who gives speeches filled with inspiring rhetoric, and then these brutal regressive insane self-destructive polcies.

    Cue the kooks and cranks and crackpots who will now call me a racist.

    Folks, it’s getting old. Screaming “Closet klansman!” at everyone who criticizes Barack Obama for betraying his campaign promises and conducting the single biggest bait-and-switch scam in the history of the American presidency is a non-starter. That “racist!” smear works the first or second or maybe even the third time you try it…sometimes it may even be justified.

    But Michael Moore?

    C’mon.

  234. 234
    Emma says:

    @Keith G: Oh, I see. We’ve turned into conservatives. Sit down peasant and listen to your betters. The stink of irritated superior male just floats off the comment.

    Take it somewhere else, little man. It’s been a very long time since male irritation had an effect on me.

  235. 235
    boss bitch says:

    Well, of course. All Black people think alike. All Black men are big, dumb gangsta thugs like Suge Knight. Obama was supposed to jack whitey up in the corner and threaten to bust a cap in his ass if he didn’t vote for his bills. Black men don’t do compromise. They just take shit whenever they want.

    What Moore said was racist and he should be called on it. It is no different than what you hear from the right. Not one bit. Anyone defending Moore is a fucking hypocrite. Would any of you be talking about context and doing all these contortions if it came from Rush or Hannity or OReilly?

    Seriously who the fuck told him that it was OK to go on TV and say shit like that? Maybe he’s hanging around Cornel West too much.

  236. 236
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @MattR: Sorry, had to do physics with my son.

    Do you actually not see a difference between “Watch it, you’re telling me how to think about Obama” and “Watch it, what you’re saying is racist”? Or no difference between “If Obama doesn’t get elected, gays could lose all of their gains because a Republican will be in office” and “I was expecting him to act like more of a black man”? There is no difference in your mind between being told how to think about someone, which is what people do all the time, and that a statement is racist (btw, a statement is ______ -racist, sexist, ageist- if a reasonable person in that context would consider it racist, and what I mean is a non-white interpreting a comment from a white or vice versa, a woman interpreting a comment from a man or vice versa)?

    But no, that’s not what you’re saying. What your saying is that ABL stating an objection to something is equivalent to someone else stating an objection to something she said. Which is only true if you want to shut both conversations down.

    In shorter terms, a statement seen as racist is not equivalent to a statement trying to convince someone of something.

  237. 237
    Darnell From LA says:

    If you believe Obama was going to behave differently simply due to the fact that he is black, then I’m sorry Mr. Moore, you have a blind spot when it comes to race.

    It would be just as ignorant as someone pre-judging Mr. Moore’s behavior based on nothing other than the color of his skin. Somehow I think Mr. Moore would actually call THAT racist.

  238. 238
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @mclaren: Not going to call you a racist; a loony, a gibbering fool, or, if I am feeling charitable, a poor, deluded clown, those I would call you..

  239. 239
    doofus says:

    @mclaren: I don’t call you a racist. I call you a Naderite cause you think there is not a bit of difference between Romney or Perry and Obama.

  240. 240
    Darnell From LA says:

    If you believe Obama was going to behave differently simply due to the fact that he is black, then I’m sorry Mr. Moore, you have a blind spot when it comes to race.

    It would be just as ignorant as someone pre-judging Mr. Moore’s behavior based on nothing other than the color of his skin. Somehow I think Mr. Moore would actually call THAT racist.

  241. 241
    Bob Westal says:

    @Kola Noscopy: I might begin to take what sure seems to me pointless drama for its own sake seriously, if once, just once, it wasn’t all about President Obama or someone strongly supporting him. If ABL or anyone else can find a single example of someone like Michael Moore being bigoted against an ordinary person of color, I’ll be extremely impressed and then, and only then, might I even begin to take ABL seriously. In my view, almost all of her work (that I’ve seen, anyhow0 on Balloon Juice has been consistently sub-par and thoughtless, which of course may be seen by her as evidence of my own racism because apparently, these days, criticizing the work of a person who isn’t white makes you a racist. I’m so sick of this crap (and by the way, I’ve been called “bot” many times and never been called a “hater” — that’s not what this is about)

  242. 242
    Joe Bauers says:

    Nothing good ever comes from trying to make a funny statement involving race. Ever, under any circumstances. This was obvious decades ago. Why does anybody still try?

  243. 243
    aisce says:

    i’m trying to figure out who informed the basis for moore’s gross stereotype?

    that long running mayor of detroit? coleman something? wasn’t he particularly blunt talking and populist? jesse jackson? mlk as pure orator, ignoring mlk as organizer?

    who exactly was the “badass, no-compromising” black politician that the president is failing to live up to?

  244. 244
    pete says:

    @mclaren: I don’t know if you are a racist. I do know that you are an idiot. Obama was not a radical candidate. He did not pretend to be a radical candidate. I knew when I voted for him that he was way to my right on most issues. But he sure was better than his opponent, and he was (and is) a person I respect.

    If you want to throw away your vote on Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy or someone else with no chance of winning … well, some people tried that in 2000, and it didn’t work out so well.

  245. 245
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Morzer:

    By that standard, one person can censor an entire community

    It’s poles with you, isn’t it? Either I get to say any shit I want and you have to put up with it, or I get to scream censorship? You can ban words like nigger and have conversations about race (And, btw, the way I am using it here it not the type of banning I’m talking about, and you know it, I bet). No, someone could not declare “shampoo” a derogatory word on a whim. But the word nigger has a meaning when it is used by whites directed at blacks, and that is why it was banned.

  246. 246
    Darnell From LA says:

    @mclaren: The problem is Mr. Moore isn’t just talking about expecting “progressive policies”, he is talking about making a judgement regarding the behavior of this President based on his race.

    He “thought he voted for a black man”, eh? And Obama is too passive, or something, right?

    What Mr. Moore is saying, in essence, is this:

    1) Black men are more aggressive than white men.

    2) Black men are more likely to engage in arguments or fights than white men.

    3) Black men are less likely to be cerebral, and more likely to try and accomplish their aims by force.

    No, nothing racist in believing any of that, right Mr. Moore? It never ceases to amaze me……the blind spot regarding race that so many progressives have.

  247. 247
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .
    @Emma:

    Take it somewhere else, little man.

    You don’t really care if you destroy a little man’s feelings with your hurtful language, do you, you bigoted sizeist? Angry Little Man will surely give you a well-deserved tongue-lashing, woman (notice, no prejudiced adjective).

    Obviously, I demand that you apologize to all little men and President Obama.
    .
    .

  248. 248
    ppcli says:

    And please stop suggesting that ABL accused Micheal Moore of being a racist. She said he made a racist remark. And he did.

    I can say someone said a stupid thing without thereby saying s/he is a stupid person, I can say someone said a cruel thing without thereby saying that s/he is a cruel person and I can say someone screwed up without thereby implying that s/he is a screwup. And I can perfectly consistently point out that someone made a racist remark without suggesting that the person is a racist.

    Normally this kind of thing is to pedantic to be worth pointing out but the transition from “this remark is racist” to “who are you calling racist!” appears constantly, and its effect is always to derail the topic of discussion.

  249. 249
    texascowgirl says:

    @mclaren:

    Can you read? ABL’s post wasn’t about any of the shit you just spouted off about. It was about Michael Moore quoting Maher’s stupid racist joke. She didn’t say he was racist because he disagrees with Obama. She didn’t say he was a racists. She said his comment was racist.

    Oh, and I’m sure whoever you vote for instead of Obama will win and get you all of the things Obama didn’t. Good luck with that.

  250. 250
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Bob Westal:

    If ABL or anyone else can find a single example of someone like Michael Moore being bigoted against an ordinary person of color

    So, because he’s president, the statement is not bigoted? That’s probably not what your saying though, but you’re missing the point: The statement was racist. It used the color of Obama’s skin to make a statement. Does it have to be directed at an “ordinary” person to be wrong?

  251. 251
    theBuhjaysus says:

    wait, what?

    Moore is a member of the Aryan Brotherhood and Maher is in the Klan?

  252. 252
    Bob Westal says:

    Ugh. I tried to edit that last remark. I was writing more out of irritation than thought. I really have to consider Moore and Maher’s remarks more once I’m less tired. Sorry everyone — though it’s possible I’ll come to the same conclusion.

    I really do get the feeling that if they’re weren’t criticizing the President and were criticizing, say, Herman Cain or an African-American Democratic politician ABL personally disliked herself, her attitude might be different — but then maybe it wouldn’t. Like I said, I’m tired.

  253. 253
    Bob Westal says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): See my remark below.

    I really shouldn’t be fanning the flames of this in my present tired state.

  254. 254
    gwangung says:

    @theBuhjaysus: No.

    Don’t be stupid.

  255. 255
    magma says:

    @ppcli:

    We need to be self-aware: we see, and laugh at, Conservative’s blind spots, but we need to be aware of our own.

    The best thing I’ve read today.

  256. 256
    Darnell From LA says:

    @pete: Mr. Moore’s silliness brings us back to a central core of ignorance among so many progressives nowadays. The idea that when they voted for Obama they thought they were going to be getting Chris Rock in that one movie, or Richard Pryor’s famous skit as the 1st black Prez giving a press conference.

    Obama didn’t run as a radical. He ran on the things that every decent Dem candidate has ever run on, in like ever. i.e. Health care, civil rights, a fair shake for the middle class, etc…and so on.

    As a matter of fact, the only issue that set him apart from his white counterparts in the Dem primary was his insistence that we bulk up our military presence in Afghanistan. (not exactly something you would call a radically-left stance)

    So where was the “radical-candidate” crap coming from? I’ll give you one hint.

  257. 257
    brewmn says:

    Wow, Morzer is really, really stupid. Stop doubling down on a losing hand, son.

  258. 258
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @mclaren:
    “skosh of racism” = “Closet klansman!”

  259. 259
    ruemara says:

    Y’all really depress me. This is fucking stupid. Weiner was a moron who sent dick pics to women like a freaking perve and Michael Moore and Bill Maher are idiotic white men who think that because they want a ‘gangster’ president (really, a big black enforcer who’ll do things they want) it somehow neutralizes the fact that they think a black man has to act like gangster to get anything done. They’re perfectly fine doing what they know, but on this, they are being pig ignorant and racist. I still like Michael Moore and Bill Maher, but I now know a little bit more about them as people and, yeah, I like them a bit less. And if I knew them, I’d say to their faces. And fuck all of y’all who think that somehow this is bigoted to think that applying a trope like this to an actual human being as commentary makes blacks the real racist.

  260. 260
    The Spy Who Loved Me says:

    @ABL:

    And once again, ABL stalks off in a snit. Like fucking clockwork.

  261. 261
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .
    @theBuhjaysus:

    Moore is a member of the Aryan Brotherhood and Maher is in the Klan?

    That is correct, as ABL has conclusively proved. When people think of “a black President” they of course immediately envisage Mr. Herman Cain, the typically typical average black man with his typically typical black concerns about racial, economic, and social justice, as opposed to the typically typical white president George W. Bush, whose extremely rare views represent a tiny minority of whites.
    .
    .

  262. 262
    NickM says:

    ABL is right about what Moore said being racist. What I dont see is how it’s a tempest anywhere but in this teapot.

  263. 263
    pete says:

    @Darnell From LA: I am right with you. It’s been educational to watch, and in many cases rather surprising.

  264. 264
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @ABL:

    It’s only acceptable if gay activists get outraged. ;)

    Moore is an ass. Like some other liberal activists, his heart may be in the right place but his foot is too often in his mouth.

    Sometimes both feet.

  265. 265
    MattR says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):They are not exactly the same, but the degree of difference is not that great. The issue is not whether or not a statement was racist, it was about being told how to feel and react to it? There is no amount of explanation, rationalization or factual evidence that Southern Beale could present to explain why she felt that “Everyone needs to get over their petty fucking grievances and focus their energies on the real enemy.” that would not have led to ABL’s comment – “should i just sit quietly over here and wait for well-meaning white folks to tell me what i should be angry about?” Yet because ABL provided what she perceived to be solid, logical reasons why LGBT should accept Obama’s less than full support (I think some would find his stance on same sex marriage to be bigoted), they should not criticize ABL for telling them what they should mute their anger towards Obama. I disagree with the premise that political expediency makes the scenarios significantly different.

    @Darnell From LA:

    So where was the “radical-candidate” crap coming from? I’ll give you one hint.

    Something involving a catchphrase about “Hope and Change”?

  266. 266
    G says:

    Just wanted to say that even though he’s fat, Michael Moore is clean and articulate.

  267. 267
    some guy says:

    Instead we just got a Democrat, with the usual “please stop hitting me so hard” sort of weakness that Democrats seem to be born with.

    winner of tonight’s Intertoobz get’s It Award, w/ gold cluster

  268. 268
    Sam Houston says:

    Stupid joke is stupid.

    To be honest I did idly sort of hope Obama would be like Samuel L. Jackson doing James Whitmore doing Harry Truman in the Whitehouse. But it wasn’t a ABM thing – I just really like Samuel L. Jackson. … and Harry Truman!

  269. 269
    texascowgirl says:

    @Darnell From LA:

    This. Like conservatives many white liberals thought Obama would be more liberal than he is because he’s black. Hillary ran on single payer, not Barack Obama. Barack Obama also ran on escalating the Af-Pak war and shooting OBL in the head even if it meant going into Pakistan without permission. Also, in general black Americans are more conservative on a variety of issues than white liberals. You should have seen all of the PETA people gasping at all of those black folks in furs at the inaugural back in 2009. They thought black=ultra-liberal, just like conservatives do.

  270. 270
    lacp says:

    As far as I know, the only people for whom race and ideology are the same things are Nazis. Moore and Maher are fools (maybe racist, too, but I wouldn’t know)for conflating political philosophy and ethnicity. I’m probably further left than Moore, and I am certainly no Obama fan, but talking about race in the context of policies that one disagrees with is…well, racist. “If the President were more black, he’d….” what? Become Clarence Thomas? Herman Cain? Thomas Sowell? Alan West?This is offensive and idiotic. It’s not a joke; at best (and that’s giving too much credit) it’s a distraction from legitimate criticism.

  271. 271
    The Sheriff's A Ni- says:

    This thread got mighty white in a hurry, but I haven’t been surprised at that for a while now.

  272. 272
    J says:

    ABL, thanks for posting this. We’ve had our differences, you know my carping about your fonts and allcaps, etc, but this is just garbage from Maher/Moore. Hadn’t heard about it, glad to know about it now, and will treat these jackasses & their opinions accordingly.

  273. 273
    Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac says:

    So, black comics get up and say that black guys are all relaxed and smooth and white guys are all uptight and nerdy (see Dave Chappelle’s version of white people), and this is ok. Bill Maher gets up and makes a political joke along the same lines, and this is very very bad. And, when michael moore quotes this very very bad joke, it’s even worse.

    Neither version of this joke is funny, told by either comedian, but that’s not what the discussion is.

    I don’t see why Maher isn’t allowed the same comedy? Can someone help me out here?

  274. 274
    burnspbesq says:

    @ABL:

    “ah, here we go. should i just sit quietly over here and wait for well-meaning white folks to tell me what i should be angry about?”

    No, but you should occasionally try to use your head as something other than a hatrack. Beale was entirely correct. There’s a war going on in this country. In a time of war, you pick a side, and if you don’t like 100 percent of what your allies do or say you take notes and settle it after the war is won. Otherwise, your side loses.

    Put another way, if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. And right now you don’t seem to be able to see past your own grievances to become part of the solution.

  275. 275
    MattR says:

    @ruemara:

    the fact that they think a black man has to act like gangster to get anything done

    I agree with 90% of what you wrote, but I don’t agree with this part. IMO, it is not that Maher thinks a black man has to be a gangster to be effective, it is that Maher wants Obama to be tough and confrontational. Since he sees Obama as a black man he uses the gangster reference. If Obama was white, Maher would have the exact same desire but he would use a different reference to make the same point. (ie. a mafia reference if it was some Italian dude)

  276. 276
    Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac says:

    @lacp: “As far as I know, the only people for whom race and ideology are the same things are Nazis”.

    Godwin’d in 269.

  277. 277
    Narcissus says:

    All I know is that when I see Michael Moore on TV, I expect him to be talking about computers or comic books or Richard Simmons. I thought I was watching a fat guy, not a politics nerd.

    Take my wife, please.

  278. 278
    pete says:

    @MattR: A lot of the “Hope and change” rhetoric was about civility and consensus and all of us, Reps & Dems, coming together. If you projected revolution onto that phrase, then that’s on you.

  279. 279
    MK says:

    Oh please preach about this sister. I have no sense of humor about implicit racism. This says more about Moore than it does about Barack Obama. I blogged about this issue when Maher went on his rant about wanting Obama to be more like “Suge Knight.” http://www.usprisonculture.com.....ge-knight/

    Enough with the white men getting on TV and spewing racist shit. ENOUGH.

  280. 280
    Keith G says:

    @Emma:

    Oh, I see. We’ve turned into conservatives. Sit down peasant and listen to your betters. The stink of irritated superior male just floats off the comment.

    Exactly. You got it. Seriously you do.

    You tried rebut a guy by calling him names. I turned the tables on you and got you to lecture me about name calling..Freeking Per-fect. And on the first try.

    Now take what you have learned and use it. May I repeat what I said up there:

    You (and many others, lately) should be able to disagree and debate without labeling the other.

  281. 281

    @The Spy Who Loved Me: Here’s the thing with trolls.

    No matter what one says, it will only encourage trollish behavior. Trolls gonna troll, as far as I can tell.

    So one makes points here and there — almost entirely for the benefit of other readers, because one knows the troll will not be opening up his or her pea brain any time soon — and then chooses to allow the troll to muck about on his or her own.

    But then, if one should decide that one has had enough of the muck and the mire under the bridge and is leaving to go clean up (because believe me, after dealing with trolls, one needs a shower), the trolls declare said humanoid an unfit sparring partner.

    Trolls gonna troll. It’s a law of nature.

    So, my point, troll, is this: STFU.

  282. 282

    @burnspbesq: Aha. Once again, a minority is told to wait until all other problems are taken care of.

    After all, we always get around to the blacks/browns/yellows/reds/women/poor/and-so-on in this country, don’t we.

  283. 283
    Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac says:

    @MK: I’ll ask again. Why is it ok for dave chappelle to make a white guys are nerds and black guys are cool and smooth joke and bill maher cannot make this joke? I know there’s a whole majority/minority thing going on here, but other than that? Isn’t maher and moore just plagiarizing bad 90’s jokes about race?

  284. 284
    MattR says:

    @pete: Nonetheless, I think that rhetoric is largely responsible for progressives thinking that Obama was going to bring a fresh political voice, rather than being another politician. Whether or not it is fair, I think it is there and it is not unique to Obama’s race (which is what Darnell was hinting at)

    @Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:

    Aha. Once again, a minority is told to wait until all other problems are taken care of.
    __
    After all, we always get around to the blacks/browns/yellows/reds/women/poor/and-so-on in this country, don’t we.

    Exactly why the LGBT community should shut up and be happy Obama has given them as much as he has. After all, it could be worse with President Perry.

  285. 285
    the fenian says:

    So, if I am following this accurately, the casus belli is that, on The View, Michael Moore quoted am edgy kind of joke told by Bill Maher, of whom the lovely Elisabeth Hasselbeck says, “Well, you don’t want to quote HIM,” giving her something in common for the first time ever (I’m betting) with the author of this post. Maher, meanwhile, on other television shows, occasionally in the presence of Michael Moore, has used the word “gangsta” in a way that the author of this post finds racist.

    I found the plot. It really needs work.

  286. 286
    lacp says:

    @Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac: It’s a tough job, but someone’s got to do it. And if you know of another political ideology (besides the N-i word) that conflates race and political philosophy, I’d love to hear about. Actually, on second thought, not.

  287. 287
    Lawnguylander says:

    Morzer is right, if we don’t excuse racist comments by white liberals, the real racists have already won. Or will win soon because here we are doing the GOP’s dirty work for them, wasting time, creating internal strife by criticizing Michael Moore, when we could be talking about how weak Obama is.

  288. 288
    burnspbesq says:

    @Esteban:

    “are you guys going to trash Michael Moore and Bill Maher like you did Cornel West??”

    Wait a sec. Check your thesaurus, pal. “Criticize” and “trash” are not synonyms. I don’t think I’ve ever “trashed” Cornel West. I’ve been critical of some of his antics that I think have decreased the likelihood that people who would benefit from hearing what he has to say will take him seriously enough to pay attention. But if you took that as “trashing,” you utterly missed the point.

    If it makes you feel any better, I’m happy to trash Maher and Moore. Both are in love with the sound of their respective voices, and neither has a damn thing to say.

  289. 289
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @burnspbesq:

    In a time of war, you pick a side, and if you don’t like 100 percent of what your allies do or say you take notes and settle it after the war is won.

    Ahhh, your position is that ABL and others should ‘STFU, take notes and sit at the back of the bus until we say so’. I’m sure you’ll be nice enough to let ABL know when “the war is won”, right?

    If so, that’s mighty white of you.

  290. 290
    pete says:

    @Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac: There is a difference between challenging stereotypes and reinforcing them.

    Maher works that line, and sometimes does some good, but often seems to see his mission as challenging the stereotypes held by people with whom he disagrees (rich white male Christians, usually), which leaves him with a blind spot about his own.

    I suspect you are misinterpreting Chapelle, who is usually pretty good about challenging even the stereotypes held by his own audience, though I admit I haven’t seen the clip you are referring to.

  291. 291
  292. 292
    burnspbesq says:

    @Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:

    Aw, come on, Emily. That’s a gross misrepresentation of what I said. And you know full well that it’s a gross misrepresentation of what I said.

    What do you hope to gain by alienating people who are on your side?

  293. 293
    Keith G says:

    @Odie Hugh Manatee: That is plainly not what he said. I assume he is working on a better rebuttal than I am able to create, so I will wait.

  294. 294
    Rhoda says:

    @Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac: So when Maher says the President was all gangsta and that’s what I wanted either in the he got OBL context or he needs to bust a cap in some Republican ass what the fuck is wrong with him way; that shit is racist. That is not acceptable; especially when you review the iconography of the tea party.

    Meanwhile, I voted for the black guy and got the white guy is fucking racist every which way you slice it. He wasn’t quoting a joke; he was commenting on the racial identity of the President.

    This happens a great deal; as if President Obama’s racial makeup determines his political and policy responses. That is fucking racist. There’s a reason why Dr. King wanted us all judged by the content of our character; these racial stereotypes in many instances degrade and dehumanize individuals.

    ABL is right; they ought to apologize. FUCK THEM if they don’t. Meanwhile, they’re saying racist shit and if you don’t get it I don’t know how to put it plainer. I’ve been writing reports all night; I’m in the wordy and redundant mode.

    In other maters, ABL, girl I don’t know how you fucking do it because as a general lurker and commenter your threads piss me off on your behalf more often than not. But keep on keeping on.

  295. 295
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @Keith G:

    That’s sure as hell the way it came across and I’m not the only one to think so. It sounds like he’s saying that it’s fine for Moore to say what he wants about the president but not for ABL to object to something she found offensive in it.

    What exactly would you call that?

  296. 296
    burnspbesq says:

    @Odie Hugh Manatee:

    You’ve got to be kidding. Please stop using me as your straw man. I didn’t say anything like that, and anyone who can read at third grade level and isn’t pursuing some bizarre agenda know that.

    So which is it: can you not read at third grade level, or are you pursuing some bizarre agenda? Or is it both? They’re not mutually exclusive.

  297. 297
    pete says:

    @MattR: Uh, so you are saying that if you misinterpreted his rhetoric, that’s his fault? I don’t think so.

    I do not know you, and I do not know your motivations, but taking progressives in the aggregate and viewing the matter statistically, I think Darnell has a point. That is, I think some proportion of the left to some extent, whether consciously or not, projected their politics onto Obama because of his racial identity. Bluntly, they wanted to believe: The black guy has faced discrimination all his life, so he has to be as angry about it as I would be. (Something vaguely like that.) It’s not really a question of “you did that” or even “they did that,” more a matter of, “it seems to me there was a contributing tendency in that direction.”

  298. 298
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @burnspbesq:

    Ahh, the questioning of intelligence argument. I submit to your superior intelligence sir, you have won this round! Pat yourself on the back and cough up your prize.

    Jackoff.

  299. 299
    Corner Stone says:

    Mother’s milk.

  300. 300
    ken says:

    How come democrats don’t vote in midterm elections? Why are we even having any other conversation besides “where are all the people who voted in 2008”?

    We wouldn’t be fighting if people just came out to vote in 2010.

  301. 301
    JDReign says:

    @mclaren:

    Sorry but your strawman is on fire. Stop it with “the people are gonna call me racist” schtick 90% of people that do that are trolls What has happened is that during the Bush years everybody had jobs and financial security. Now that the house of cards has fallen down people pay attention to politics and are shocked that there is significant compromise involved just like during the Bush years. Barack Obama has to deal with with a cowardly left-wing. People that talk tough but don’t go to townhalls and harass their Congressman. (The people who actually make legislation) When you have “alot of liberals” who whine on the internet all day vs conservatives who call, write and organize functions, its no wonder stuff gets watered down

  302. 302
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    I find it confusing that people can’t tell the difference between being told to consider how ones actions or inactions may affect the very things you are fighting for, and being told that what you say is racist/sexist/fishist. Can we not accept that we may have said something wrong and be willing to correct it? How is being told “gays, you’ve gotten more support from Obama than any other president, and if he is not reelected you might lose the rights that are properly yours” and “I was expecting Obama to be more of a black man, he should govern more like a black man” in any way equivalent? They both may be false views, but the second one is entirely about race.

  303. 303
    Corner Stone says:

    @Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: I’m with you. The white privilege on display in this thread is awful. And it just makes me sick.

  304. 304
    AxelFoley says:

    That fat fuck. Moore can go fuck himself.

    And some of ya’ll wonder why black folks are pissed off at the bullshit thrown President Obama’s way by those that are “supposed” to be on his side. The Professional Left is no different than the GOP, with the exception that at least the GOP never tried to hide their racism, while the PL can no longer hide theirs.

  305. 305
    Keith G says:

    That went well.

  306. 306
    Keith G says:

    @Corner Stone: Oh god i just choked on a bagel, you fucker.

    edit

  307. 307
    burnspbesq says:

    @Odie Hugh Manatee:

    It could only have come across that way if concepts like “priorities” and “the greatest good for the greatest number” are either outside your frame of reference or seen by you as somehow invalid.

  308. 308
    Slowbama says:

    On reading this, the umpteenth example of a race-baiting post by the non-ironically named Angry Black Lady, I have to conclude that Angry Black Lady really hates being black. Sorry, no two ways around it.

  309. 309
    Corner Stone says:

    Oh shit.

  310. 310
    Raenelle says:

    Obama appoints Robert fucking Lucas (the poor-people-are-poor-because-they-drop-out-of-high-school-and-do-drugs Robert Lucas) to his economics team as his lead-up to his big jobs push. Michael Moore wishes Obama was less of a wuss and appeals to a strong-black-man image to make his point. It’s so clear. Michael Moore, who has done nothing his entire life but fight for working people, that Michael Moore is now a shit racist.

    Here’s where I stand. I was raised to be loyal. My dad was a union man. My mom was a union man too. My husband was a union man and so was his father. What we know is how to stand up for each other. Michael Moore has always, ALWAYS, been on the side of workers. Obama, not so much. I guess that makes me a shit racist too because I will never ever abandon Michael Moore.

  311. 311
    TooManyJens says:

    @Slowbama: And people wonder why ABL thinks there are a lot of racist assholes in the comments on her threads. Are you reading this shit, people?

  312. 312
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @burnspbesq:

    Ahh, so offending some people and telling them to shut up about it until some undefined date is a-ok as long as it’s good for everyone else in the long run?

    Pssst. Your white privilege is showing. You might want to tuck it back in.

  313. 313
    Comrade Kevin says:

    Slowbama needs to be shown the fucking door.

  314. 314
    Keith G says:

    @burnspbesq: burns, the buttons have been pushed and it is likely that the real meaning of many words, let alone nuance, is very dead in this thread.

  315. 315
    Mike in NC says:

    I don’t plan to vote for Obama in 2012.

    Thanks for sharing, and find five people who give a shit.

  316. 316
    Elie says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    Best comment on this string…

    Yesyesyes…

  317. 317
    Alison says:

    @Slowbama: I’m getting too pissed off with bullshit like this to even attempt to be clever in response.

    You’re an asshole. You’re here for no other reason than to be a nasty, hateful jerk, so do those of us with shreds of decency a favor and piss off. Seriously.

  318. 318
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Raenelle:

    that Michael Moore is now a shit racist.

    The statement was racist. You can make a racist statement without even thinking you’re making one. And that’s what his statement was.

    It would be the equivalent of asking why you’re not a better cook, have you not been practicing?

  319. 319
    Elie says:

    @TooManyJens:

    Absolutely. Coldly. Eyes wide open….every damned word

  320. 320
    Shade Tail says:

    @MattR:

    Weren’t you just telling the LGBT folks what they should be angry about?

    Uh, no, she wasn’t. If you were to, you know, *actually read* what she wrote, you’d have noticed that she was (completely accurately) pointing out that Obama’s critics were wrong in their claim that he is a defacto enemy of the LGBT community. I trust you weren’t deliberately misconstruing her earlier point and were merely careless in building and knocking down your strawman.

  321. 321
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Raenelle:

    I guess that makes me a shit racist too because I will never ever abandon Michael Moore.

    Or just someone who prefers rhetoric to results?

  322. 322
    Bruce S says:

    “Honey, are you coming to bed?”

    “Not until I’ve read through 300+ comments about Michael Moore saying something stupid on The View.”

  323. 323
    Comrade Kevin says:

    @Raenelle:

    I guess that makes me a shit racist too because I will never ever abandon Michael Moore.

    If you feel the need to say that, well, you may want to engage in some self-reflection.

  324. 324
    Elie says:

    @Raenelle:

    Not racist. Just stoopid.

    You have better be able to tell fact from fiction and discerne shades of gray. If you believe or have evidence that Obama is anti union in any way, you should share it.

    There are thousands of GM and american auto industry union jobs still in place because of Obama.

    Obama can’t make you smart though. Dunno what to do about that.

  325. 325
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Shade Tail: Thank you, I couldn’t remember which post it was.

    @Bruce S: LOL

  326. 326
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .
    @Corner Stone:

    Mother’s milk.

    Oh, you must mean chocolate milk, don’t you racissss? Or must it always be white milk, you racisssss?
    .
    .

  327. 327
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Elie:

    There are thousands of GM and american auto industry union jobs still in place because of Obama.

    hundreds of thousands, actually, but there was so little screaming involved

  328. 328
    whitney says:

    @Raenelle: WTF does your loyalty to unions have to do with Michael Moore saying some racist shit?

    Oh…It’s not racist if a guy who says he’s a union guy says it.

    Whatevs.

  329. 329
    Keith G says:

    @TooManyJens: I am resding and there are many troubling comments. Slowbama quite possibly is a racist. I know he is being and asshole. Can he be one without the other. That seems to be the unintentional meta of this thread.

    Are there a lot of racist assholes in the comments on her threads, or are there a few who might be racist and several assholes and a lot who just disagree. How do you measure this?

    Is this racist?

    If so, that’s mighty white of you.

  330. 330
    eemom says:

    Good fucking God. I am speechless.

    Hey, y’all Irish-Catholic Bostonians! Yer racism is yer STRENGTH — EMBRACE it!!

    I mean look at the Kennedys. Look what THEY were able to achieve with a bigoted white trash bootlegging Nazi-loving Daddy. Are you telling me that ain’t GOOD enough for you?

    How — how, I ask you — is it offensive to suggest that a Boston Irish Catholic should exploit the natural talents his species was given by God?

    Are you saying it’s offensive to acknowledge that Boston Irish Catholics have a superior capacity for hating Blacks and Jews? Are you actually saying they shouldn’t use those capacities for political advantage?

    Cuz if so, you might as well be saying that tall black guys should never play basketball.

    That about right, Morzer?

  331. 331
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @whitney: I think a better question is why we have come to believe that everything about a person has to be defended or the person has been torn down and is no longer affective. I probably do it, too, when it comes to statements about Obama.

    A related question would be why we think that someone on the internet making a statement about Moore or Obama is actually going to cause any kind of damage to them? I know the real answer is that we’re trying to convince other people of our position, but we do seem to get overly involved in it.

    But Moore’s statement was still racist, and I happen to think Sicko was a great contribution to discourse about health care in this country.

    (It’s also weird, every time I type “racist” I want to put an s at the end. And it’s not to make it plural. I know other people have done it, too.)

  332. 332
    am says:

    ABL, you are thin skinned, emo, and annoying. I can honestly say I’ve never commented on drama on this site, but I for one will miss your contributions but certainly not this childish garbage. Grow up.

  333. 333
    Elie says:

    @Keith G:

    No. Not racist —

    But what is your point really, Keith? What are you saying?
    If some of these folks are just dicks and others are racists, how does that help to illuminate our discussion in any way? Must ABL assign every dick who comments in offensive ways as correctly just a moron or truly, a bona fide racist? Why does it fucking matter?

    Michael Moore is a film maker who has specialized in making sly and effective inferences about the motivations and thinking of his targets to show their darker sides or true beliefs and inclinations. If he cannot command the English language enough to discern that his words may be taken in insulting ways by the fucking black President of the United States — the FIRST BLACK GODAMNED PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, then he is not only a fat ugly fuck but a STOOPID damned ugly fuck.

    Bill Maher is just shilling for an audience anymore. Proly thinks that leaning to criticize Obama might cut him a rightwinger or two. Loser.

    But why oh why should ABL or anyone here make refined arguments to separate dicks from racists. Tell me.

  334. 334
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Keith G: Yes. It’s obviously meant to be derogatory. Even if a black were to use it against another black – which I have read happens – it is using the race of the person against him or her.

  335. 335
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @Elie:

    I think they’re saying that since Moore is pro-union then they will never turn against him because that’s the way their parents raised them. Or something like that.

    Never mind that Obama saved more union jobs than Moore ever has, Moore supports unions bettah!

  336. 336
    pete says:

    @Elie: Thanks for pointing that one out. I had missed it. Let’s repeat its essence for any who, like me, sometimes skim:

    We need to be having this discussion, no matter how uncomfortable it makes us.

  337. 337
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .
    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    @whitney: I think a better question is why

    I think a better question is why he’s coming in here with that “n” in his name, thinking he’s so clever about his… you know. Very suspicious – does ABL know about this?
    .
    .

  338. 338
    Comrade Kevin says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    But Moore’s statement was still racist, and I happen to think Sicko was a great contribution to discourse about health care in this country.

    Indeed. I don’t really want Moore to go away, I wish he’d stop saying stupid shit like he did in this instance. He has a real knack for opening his mouth and spewing crap before he engages his brain.

  339. 339
    TooManyJens says:

    @Keith G:

    Are there a lot of racist assholes in the comments on her threads, or are there a few who might be racist and several assholes and a lot who just disagree. How do you measure this?

    You have to have everything spelled out in nice neat little rules, I’ve noticed. But human interactions don’t work that way. There’s judgment involved. You have to take context into account. It isn’t EASY. Easy, black-and-white (no pun intended) rules are for the Right. Liberals are supposed to know better.

    Having said that, I’ll tell you one personal rule I have: I give the side-eye to any white person who thinks they know better what is and is not racist than a non-white person. And there are *shitloads* of those on any thread where ABL talks about race.

  340. 340
    Elie says:

    @am:

    don’t read her comments.

    Now have your nice warm milk and go get your blanky and go to bed. Its clear you are up past your bedtime

  341. 341
    Elie says:

    @pete:

    Absolutely… like I said, best comment on this thread.

  342. 342
    Rhoda says:

    @Southern Beale: Yeah, race is not a petty fucking grievance and it’s not about political affiliation or an election.

  343. 343
    Comrade Kevin says:

    @TooManyJens:

    I’ll tell you one personal rule I have: I give the side-eye to any white person who thinks they know better what is and is not racist than a non-white person. And there are shitloads of those on any thread where ABL talks about race.

    Abso-fucking-lutely.

  344. 344
    dww44 says:

    @Keith G: You nailed it. Just went over to DKOS and Kos himself has a diary up about diary free-for-alls:

    …..”I will consider that diary/thread to be a free-for-all. I will ignore comments in such threads except for direct calls to violence, racist/sexist/bigoted language, copyright violations, or other deeply offensive material. Any other kind of dickish behavior will be fair game.
    So diarists get to choose — their diaries can either be zones of civility, or they can be mosh pits.”

    That’s the Kos himself and that’s what this thread is: a mosh pit. Too bad, because there were some thoughtful comments and people of good will who got labelled as racists. Sad really and definitely non-productive for any of us.

  345. 345
    pete says:

    @Raenelle: I am a union person. I have been a union official. Sometimes I disagree with other members, and the leadership, both of my Local and of the National. That does not mean I quit. The union is important, and solidarity is important.

    That said, I am not abandoning Michael Moore, I am criticizing this particular thing he said. In fact, I don’t think he’s much of a racist, I think he’s basically a good guy, but I do think he made a racist statement. He should apologize. Unlike many other public figures, he just might do that. But c’mon, no need to pull the union card out.

  346. 346
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Uncle Clarence Thomas: Are you going to be like Maggie on the Simpsons, with all of us waiting on bated breath for you to speak your first words from the bench?

  347. 347
    Elie says:

    @dww44:

    sorry, quoting DKOS as a standard here doesnt work for me.

    but thanks for sharing.

    Time for blanky and warm milk for you too.

  348. 348
    Corey says:

    1) Generally agree with Michael Moore’s broad assessment of the president

    2) Thought the racial stuff was stupid and offensive

    3) Not sure how a person as nasty as you are can call anyone out on their prejudices and dumbass, offensive statements. A few days ago you were telling gay folks what they should and shouldn’t be angry about, you mock Glenn Greenwald for living in Brazil when that’s the only option he has to be with his partner. You have no problem “straightsplaining” and condescending to people, but when some washed-up filmmaker does it, you get the vapors?

  349. 349
    pete says:

    @Elie: Me, I’m on the left coast. Just saying’.

  350. 350
    tkogrumpy says:

    Lost the plot? lost the plot? A delusional fantasy is not a plot.

  351. 351
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @dww44: And I remember finding that comment annoying because of all of the things that have happened during the first two years, before the House went Republican, even having to deal with only a few months of Democrats having a 60 person majority in the senate that included Nelson, Landrieu, and Lieberman. Bush also gave us Roberts and Alito; Obama gave us Kagan and Sotomayor.

  352. 352
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .
    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    Are you going to be like Maggie on the Simpsons, with all of us waiting on bated breath for you to speak your first words from the bench?

    I have to admit that I’ve never seen the Simpsons, so I can’t answer that.
    .
    .

  353. 353
    Keith G says:

    @Elie:

    But why oh why should ABL or anyone here make refined arguments to separate dicks from racists. Tell me.

    Because words do and must continue to matter. Because dick and racist are different words producing very different sanctions.
    Because if racism is to remain an apt description of a vile behavior it must be used with a bit of care. Because there is real racism that need to be confronted.

  354. 354
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Corey:

    A few days ago you were telling gay folks what they should and shouldn’t be angry about

    Please go find my quotes above because how this is equivalent to racism is beyond me.

  355. 355
    Elie says:

    @Odie Hugh Manatee:

    sorry — I just don get the angle. Does not compute.

    These folks sat up here and watched this admnistration take heat and fire saving thousands of auto jobs (and probably Michigan’s damned whole economy), and they are going to let some fat assed white guy FILM MAKER, diss him? And then complain that Republicans don’t know their self interest?

    Naw. The ONLY interpretation possible after someone gives a thirsty man in a desert a drink of water, then the man, after slaking his thirst, knocks that cup out of the man’s hand cause it wasnt cold enough — is nothing but contempt.

  356. 356
    mcd410x says:

    I thought Maher meant he voted for a black Democrat and wound up with a white Republican. But what the heck do I know.

  357. 357
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @dww44:

    Context…

    Kos only said he would treat a diary that way if the author of the diary came in and responded to dickish comments in a dickish way. If the author ignored the dickish comments then presumably Kos would moderate the offender(s). IOW, keep the dickish comments out of a diary and don’t respond to the dickish comments if you are the diarist.

    The dickish responses from an author wouldn’t happen without the dickish responses from the dicks.

  358. 358
    handy says:

    @Uncle Clarence Thomas:

    Maggie’s the baby. Maggie’s been a damned baby sucking on a pacifier since that show has been on air–for TWENTY years! What the hell is up with that? That is a messed up baby.

    Oh, you really weren’t fishing for an explanation, were you?

  359. 359
    Alison says:

    @Keith G: “Real racism”.

    Ahem. FFS. That right there is part of the problem.

  360. 360
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @Elie:

    It doesn’t compute with me either but I’m a troubleshooter, I’m used to trying to make sense of things that don’t. I may not understand it but I’m pretty good at accurately describing crazy shit when I see it.

    It’s a flaw of mine. ;)

  361. 361
    TooManyJens says:

    @Alison: I wonder who gets to decide what “real racism” is?

  362. 362
    Corner Stone says:

    @Uncle Clarence Thomas:

    Oh, you must mean chocolate milk, don’t you racissss? Or must it always be white milk, you racisssss?

    Who said it was white milk you double inverted racist hodge podge? Why’s it gotta be white milk?

  363. 363
    Elie says:

    @Keith G:

    ..and Keith, there is an intellectual argument for that discernment.

    Unfortunately, in practical reality where I live, I am not sure that the difference is meaningful for anyone but theorists like you.

    I am of course interested in refined definitions and terms when possible. As I asked you however, what is the practical necessity for that in the context of this discussion? Moore remains a fat assed dick whether he is just a plain dick or a racist dick. I would even say that maybe he is not racist in his heart (whereever that is), but what he said was definitely racist. As an artist who is very accomplished in using the English language and its various interpretations for impact, I nor anyone, should have to be wondering what his intent was, doncha think? He was either being racist, or purposely inflammatory. If the better of these is “purposely inflammatory”, what might be the rationale for such …? Any ideas? Or — Who cares?

  364. 364
    Corner Stone says:

    @Keith G: I live to serve.
    BTW, I just chocked down some pad thai.

  365. 365
    whitney says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): Well you said it a helluva lot more eloquently than I could have.

    What I read was that MM said a racist thing for which he should apologize. I agree.

    I don’t assume that by making a racist statement, he is racist in all form or deed, nor do I believe he should be taken out to the woodshed, or even that he can no longer be considered credible in other areas (although, I don’t agree with his assessment regarding Obama).

    But I do believe it is appropriate to call him on the statement, and I’m somewhat concerned by all of the defenses to what I perceive as a patently racist statement.

  366. 366
    Corey says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): I mean, what’s so hard to understand? We’re consistently reminded that ABL’s assessment of what’s racist and what’s not is not to be questioned, because she’s black and knows best (something I generally agree with, unless the “racist” accusation is for doing stuff like placing an ad on a bus or something).

    But in that post a few days back, she condescendingly explained to gay folks how they shouldn’t be upset with the president’s record. This is actually something I agree with too, but I definitely wouldn’t condescend to tell a gay person how they should think about an issue that affects them a million times more than it does me. That’s in addition to her repeated taunts of Greenwald for, essentially, being gay and having a foreign partner.

    You honestly cannot square these two things.

  367. 367
    Elie says:

    @pete:

    Me too but you know, some folks just cannot hang late and they are cranky and need to be in their beds so that the adults can talk..its tiring having to explain stuff over and over.

  368. 368
    Comrade Kevin says:

    @Elie:

    fat assed

    er

  369. 369
    Keith G says:

    @TooManyJens: I do appreciate your answer, and I am wondering…does that mean anything goes?

    What level of scrutiny is due a charge of racism, homophobia (I hate that phrase btw), or antisemitism? It matters because those labels should disqualify one from respect, trust and public responsibility.

  370. 370
    Cap'n Magic says:

    @mcd410x: More specifically, a mildly conservative Republican, as opposed to the batshit-crazy GOP’ers today.

  371. 371
    Admiral_Komack says:

    Bill Maher can’t talk about anyone going gangsta.
    When he got shitcanned by ABC for talking shit about 9-11, he didn’t go gangsta on ABC.

    He acted like what he is…a punk-ass bitch.

    He went on Jay Leno looking like somebody shot his dog…in front of him…with the person who shot his dog daring him to do anything.

    Michael Moore…YAWN.

    Yes, Michael, the President is black…and he’s smarter and tougher than you’ll ever hope to be.
    Asswipe.

  372. 372
    Keith G says:

    @Alison: How so?

  373. 373
    Corey says:

    @Keith G: The ideal world is one in which a racist statement doesn’t disqualify you from all that stuff, because racial prejudice is a baked-in element of the human experience. Everyone’s racist.

    The problem is that people hear “racist” and automatically think of dudes in white hoods, not themselves. One of the legacies of our history of racial violence is that it gave white people an “out” – a racist “other” to favorably compare themselves to.

  374. 374
    Elie says:

    @Corey:

    And I do belive you are right… we all have elements of racism or tribalism in our natures.

    But if I read your interpretation of consequence, you believe that since everyone is racist, it really can’t mean that much and therefore no one should be excluded from doing anything because of that unfortunate, but thankfully common affliction. Amirite?

    ABL and the rest of us who were offended or questioning are just hysterical over reactors to the natural human proclivities that should be allowed to be indulged without question. Right?

  375. 375
    whitney says:

    @Keith G: @Corey: This. A million times.

  376. 376
    Admiral_Komack says:

    @Matthew:

    And you’re a dick.

  377. 377
    wasabi gasp says:

    Gee wiz…he was yabba dabba dooing fifty six downhill.

  378. 378
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @Keith G:

    Your question wasn’t directed at me but…

    in the thread at the GOS that dww44 referenced above, Kos stated that if someone says something that offends others (as in it being perceived as racist, misogynistic, etc) then it’s up to the person who said what they did to find another way to say what they want without offending anyone.

    Sounds good to me. There would be no need for scrutiny if people did this. Until then…

  379. 379
    Thymezone says:

    One of the five best BJ posts ever. Totally agree, on what I call the “Asshole Lefty” crowd, of whom there are many representatives here, and in the media. Moore and Maher are two of the biggest assholes in the history of the universe. Talented, yes, but complete schmucks, both of them. They both long ago stopped representing for liberals and sold out to the lowest common denominator joke list. Fuck them very much, in every possible way.

    And of course the comment about the comments section here is right on target. This place was a lot more admirable six years ago when half the commenters were John’s old righty pals. They were totally full of shit but at least you could score some endorphins arguing with them.

  380. 380
    Elie says:

    @Corey:

    And in your “ideal” world (very interesting choice of words), racist statements should not exclude you from “all that” (all what exactly?) In MY ideal world, people do not make racist statements without acknowledging same and apologizing, but maybe I am not ideal enough, eh?

    Can’t we all just get along?, right?

  381. 381
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .
    @Corner Stone:

    Who said it was white milk you double inverted racist hodge podge? Why’s it gotta be white milk?

    Ah, you didn’t mention what kind of milk it was, and we all know that strawberry-peppermint squirrel milk is the only non-racissss milk, if you can get it. I stand corrected for my unthinking assumptions, Sir, and I extend my apologies and kudos to you.
    .
    .

  382. 382
    TooManyJens says:

    @Keith G:

    What level of scrutiny is due a charge of racism, homophobia (I hate that phrase btw), or antisemitism? It matters because those labels should disqualify one from respect, trust and public responsibility.

    Where I think you’re going wrong is that you think saying someone said or did something racist is the same as saying they are A Racist, and therefore beyond redemption. It would be nice if racism were confined to the kind of people who wear sheets or hold signs with racial epithets at Tea Party gatherings. But the fact is, even otherwise respectable people can have racist thoughts or say racist things. That’s because we (talking about people in the U.S. now, though it applies in other ways in other places) grew up steeped in a racist society. We absorbed that shit from before we were old enough to even understand that was what was happening. People who are generally well-meaning and empathetic can learn to shed the worst of what they were taught, but it’s damn hard to get rid of it all. I think what Joe Biden said about Obama being “clean and articulate” was a racist remark (just go with me for the sake of argument, here) but I don’t think he’s A Racist. He’s a good guy who fucked up. If we can’t point out when people fuck up because that would “disqualify [them] from respect, trust and public responsibility,” then how are people supposed to learn from their mistakes or the mistakes of others and do better?

    I’d say that a pattern of racist behavior, or an open contempt for people of color, should be disqualifying, at least until such time as the person makes amends for their behavior. But pointing out that in a particular instance, someone has fucked up and said something racist, just means that they should look at what they did and stop doing that.

  383. 383
    am says:

    @Elie:

    Elie – no thank you, I’ll continue to read and say what I want.

  384. 384
    eastriver says:

    I can’t believe I’m doing this after promising myself that I would never waste anyone’s time by commenting on an ABL post: “Just leave well enough alone,” I said.

    But I just about choked on a mouhtful of air when I read “Lay off the racial shit.”

    Seriously? SERIOUSLY?

    W.O.W.

  385. 385
    Elie says:

    @TooManyJens:

    Well said. rational – balanced…

    sigh

  386. 386
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .
    @handy:

    Oh, you really weren’t fishing for an explanation, were you?

    I appreciate it, having never seen the series.
    .
    .

  387. 387
    Corey says:

    @Elie: I think that’s a pretty uncharitable way of interpreting what I wrote.

    It’s not that there shouldn’t be consequences, it’s that the consequences we impose on racist behavior are hypocritical. There are very few people in the world that have never, literally in their whole lives, made or laughed at a racist or ethnic joke. There’s even fewer (white people, at least) that haven’t uttered awkward-at-best phrases like the one Michael Moore did. Yet people caught doing just that under the wrong circumstances can face catastrophic consequences – losing their jobs, for instance.

    I don’t think that’s just, honestly. If racism is something that’s in integral part of being human, it’s unjust and hypocritical, I think, to impose potentially-catastrophic consequences on the ones who happen to act out their racism at the wrong time.

    Far better to have a world in which where accusations of racism weren’t so highly charged and dramatic – more like pointing out a universal mental blind spot, than the current undertone of “Klansman” the term currently has.

  388. 388
    Keith G says:

    @Elie: You notice, I have not touched on the Moore issue. Being famous does not always equate with reason or intelligence. Moore is who he is because he is a bomb thrower who barely got out of high school and caught a break by having his talents match up with a specific time in our culture.

    As you say, his shitck is being purposely inflammatory. A little bit of him lasts me a long time, though me has been generally helpful to those who want to focus on the needs of the left behind.
    I think he is very capable of being a dumb ass

  389. 389
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @eastriver:

    Thus sayeth the Hillbot. Next time, don’t break your promises to yourself.

    Our time is precious.

  390. 390
    eastriver says:

    @Thymezone:

    Oh, yes. You’re right about Maher. He’s a dick. A cold fucking fish. Talented. But not someone you want to hang out with for a couple of days. (Trust me.)

  391. 391
    taylormattd says:

    @Slowbama: Oh see here? This is the kind of comment Anne Laurie has no problem with.

    In fact, we are terrible ABL cultists if we get worked up and bitch this racist asshole out.

    And of course, it’s not the racist piece of shit troll, and his racist comments that get singled out on the front page. Instead, it’s the people who dare respond to it.

    Honestly Cole, take her and that Naderite piece of crap Freddie, and shove them.

  392. 392
    Comrade Kevin says:

    @eastriver: You should have kept your promise. You would have kept your foot out of your mouth.

  393. 393
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .
    Fortunately, ABL was elected unanimously to Spokesperson for All Black People. Also too, her stereotypes are the only valid stereotypes, by popular acclaim.
    .
    .

  394. 394
    eastriver says:

    @Odie Hugh Manatee:

    Hillbot? What the fuck’s a Hillbot?

    My God, it’s true. You assholes actually have your own decoder rings, don’t you?

    Hillbot? (Is that a Hillary Clinton ref?)

    Sorry, I’ll now be going back to my life.

  395. 395
    Laertes says:

    Wait. Now I’m supposed to be pissed at Maher too?

    I get that Moore made a dumbass remark. That whole amateur-raciology bullshit he whipped out was backwards. But I just watched the very funny Maher bit and I’m calling shenanigans.

    Yeah, he said gangsta. And in context, all it meant was “badass.” The only word in that rant that he wouldn’t have used if President John Kerry had just killed bin Laden was “black.” “Gangsta” would still have worked.

    I’m right there with you on the Moore thing, but if you think that Maher was offensive in the bit you linked (maybe you linked the wrong bit by accident?) then y’all outta get over yourself.

  396. 396
    boss bitch says:

    @mcd410x:

    I thought Maher meant he voted for a black Democrat and wound up with a white Republican. But what the heck do I know.

    you don’t know much it seems. If that’s what he meant( and he didn’t by the way) why add the persons color to the party identification?

    Play dumb folks. Keep playing dumb.

  397. 397
    Elie says:

    @Corey:

    Ya know, Corey…

    I don’t know how old you are and what your life experiences have been.

    Racial epithets and name calling by themselves are no big deal, I guess. But in at least some minds, there is a link between the negative, diminishing and contemptuous words and name calling to real acts.

    Have you ever been afraid just living and doing everyday things like many black people were (and some still are)? There was a for real time that black people were sometimes hauled off the street and killed for looking sideways at a white person.

    I am 61 years old and thankfully escaped much of the experience that my parents had living in the south. But it marked them and they marked me some from their experiences. We did not go on certain sides of the city that we lived in. We did not expect to get waited on or treated the same in medical facilities. If you read about Henrietta Lacks, the black woman whose cervical cancer that provides the tissue cultures for all of our vaccines and many of our medical treatments — well she was treated in the 50’s at one of the most prestigious hospitals in this country — Johns Hopkins — in a black ward where she was not given informed consent for the use of her tissue, nor was her family made aware of the gazillions of dollars (not to mention the enormous humanitarian contribution) that Henrietta made to all of manking.

    All of this to say that words have meaning. That meaning is attached to actions and consequences both immediate and long term. Racist words are not just blow off crap. They have intention to demean and diminish and for some, are directly linked to specific reprehensible ACTIONS.

    I actually think your lame assed opinion is more offensive than if you called me a nigger.

  398. 398
    LanceThruster says:

    Pretty clueless by Moore, and Maher has outed himself as a tool with his brown-nosing of Israel and his demonization of 9/11 skeptics.

    Can you imagine the type of investigative coverage of 9/11 that could have been done if their goal really was to uncover the truth. I’m truly embarrassed to be an American in regards to everything about 9/11.

    Like Lennon said, “Just give me some truth.”

  399. 399
  400. 400
    glasnost says:

    Back when discrimination involved actual actions, policies involving resources, access, permissions, etc, rather than just people making subjectively insensitive statements, the entire topic was seen as more morally legitimate to the mainstream and less of gathering place for the emotionally damaged and exploitation/victimization profiteering. That doesn’t mean stereotypes aren’t dumb, in the sense of inaccurate, especially if they’re actually believed by the people who trade in them. If Chris Rock said this – I feel it’s fairly likely that Chris Rock has already said something like this, and nobody cared.

    It’s okay to use “white” in an adjective involving “irresponsible and drunk with power”. Also, “awkward”, “geek”, “jerk”, etc. Honestly, this doesn’t really bother me all that much. I don’t think most people who use this stereotype honestly believe that this is a defining characteristic of white people.

    Who’s to say Michael Moore wasn’t using ‘black’ as a humorous stand-in for “truth to power” and ‘white’ as a stand in for “old-boy network?” I think that’s a plausible interpretation.

    Sure, it’s not particularly accurate. I rather doubt it hides a dislike of black people, since it’s fair to call the whole statement white-person-bashing.

    Either way, I don’t really care. If that’s my white privilege showing, I don’t much care. And yep, I came here to tell you that you shouldn’t care, either. If that makes you mad – don’t care.

    There’s a lot of actual suffering going on in the world, and people that get this angry at basically good people making dumb jokes to no practical consequence are wasting their emotions, their time, and their activism energy lecturing and shouting at the only people willing to actually sit there and listen, who are generally the least of their problems, when they could be dealing with actual suffering, and actual discrimination of the sort that involves actual denial of access, resources, permissions, and so on.

    The denial of one job to one unemployed person because he’s unemployed is worth more than all the dumb jokes in the world, especially ones that can’t plausibly argued to be negatively portraying the minority groups in question. Moore is, if anything, imitating minorities (and members of the majority) who feel free to use negative stereotypes of the majority. He learned to use “white” in this derogatory manner from you, folks. And I’m okay with him doing it. Or even Dave Chappelle, or ABL, doing it.

    We’d be changing the world about issues involving actual, tangible harm done to people more consistently if we spent less time on feelings.

    In conclusion, you know who does a good job talking about race – even pointing out harmful stereotypes without blowing their significance out of proportion – and holding civil discussions about it afterwards? Ta-Nehisi Coats. There’s a man to admire. When is ABL going to learn something from him? I’m pretty sure that if she wants to attract fewer trolls and d-bags like myself, she could try learning to not be an obnoxious drama queen.

  401. 401
    Elie says:

    @Keith G:

    No — I noticed…

    Its all so tiring really.

    sigh

  402. 402
    boss bitch says:

    @Laertes:

    We’s gotta ovah ourselves? You big dummy, Moore is saying the same shit as Maher. Obama is Black, therefore he is supposed to act a certain way. On one of his shows Maher said he wanted Suge Knight but instead he got Wayne Brady. Suge Knight typical young buck that talks with his fist and scares White people. Wayne Brady safe Black guy who acts White and gets along with White people. You get it yet?

  403. 403
    Comrade Kevin says:

    Oh shit, if anyone thought the thread couldn’t get any worse, a Truther has shown up.

  404. 404
    Raenelle says:

    Whew. This is really a relief. I have so had it with politics. One of the most loyal friends that progressives ever had, Michael Moore, says something that could be interpreted as racist if you squint properly, and the left go into a tizzy for an apology. All in the name of a president who has let black unemployment rise to Reaganesque levels.

    I’ve been so disappointed in the lack of a political party that could stand strongly for working people in this country that I have been flirting the last couple of months with going full-metal George Carlin and forsaking the whole thing. Just let go, and let Jerry, as they say. Stay local, care about my neighborhood, my family, and just let the rest go. This country can’t be saved anymore anyway, so why bother.

    And this whole attempt to shame Michael Moore, Michael Moore! for FSM’s sake, well . . . straw meet camel’s back.

    Good luck and good-bye. I hope austerity deficit reduction with 9% umemployment can be compensated for with you guys by a Michael Moore apology. Fuck, I wish I’d known 40 years ago what a waste of time this would be.

  405. 405
    Keith G says:

    @Elie: why the sigh at the end?

    Jens to doing what too many here are/have not: slowing down communicating. This is cool. too freeking bad it is at 11:46 my time and 2 hrs after my bed time.

    And to Jens: We are at what might be our closest point of agreement.

    Where I think you’re going wrong is that you think saying someone said or did something racist is the same as saying they are A Racist, and therefore beyond redemption.

    I get the whole point that begins with the above.

    I agree.

    A concern that I carry is that some here are not as careful with the racist/Racist construct as you are and even though they are only words – they have at times here been used to shut off of a line of commentary deserved or not.

  406. 406
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @eastriver:

    A blast from the past; a quote of yours from another site:

    I’m afraid that I completely get the Barack arrogance thing. (This has nothing to do with the article.) My wife and I both think he comes across as arrogant.

    Are you sure it’s “arrogant” and not “uppity”?

  407. 407
    glasnost says:

    This is where I should say “sorry for whitesplaining”, except I’m not sorry. Because it’s an offensive concept, and a racist one, involving the sorting of people into arbitrary categories and the subsequent automated dismissal of whatever meaning they might be trying to express. I’ve been offended by it in ABL’s comments on more than one occasion.

    Those with something in their eye – be it a mote or a beam or whatever – could maybe stand to be less… judgmental about other people’s motes, or beams, or whatever.

  408. 408
    suzanne says:

    @burnspbesq:

    And right now you don’t seem to be able to see past your own grievances to become part of the solution.

    For some, electing Democrats isn’t “the solution”, it’s merely another means to a greater end. That may not be the way you see things, but it’s pretty paternalistic to assume that your method is The One And Only Way That Progressives Should Operate.

    ABL is right; this was some racist shit. But okay, now what? Moore said something racist, and I think ABL’s demand for an apology is appropriate. Yanno, it’s a cliche, but we’re ALL a little bit racist. And sexist. And homophobic. Etc. That’s a totally logical consequence of pickling in this racist patriarchy.

    No one has to be on Team Moore or Team ABL. Saying something racist doesn’t nullify everything else Moore’s every done that’s good and decent and progressive in his life. He does the right thing much more often than not, and saying that he made a racist comment isn’t the same as calling for his head. Hopefully, he can just apologize, try not to do similarly stupid things in the future, and we can all move the fuck on.

  409. 409
    Elie says:

    @glasnost:

    Why come here then?

    Stay away with your faux purist “true leftist” crap..

    You wouldnt know activism and getting work done on the street if it hit you in your stupid mouth.

    People who offend others do not get things done. Get that?

    You come to this community or any community, you come with respect. That is step one.

    Instead, your first words on this thread are contemptuous and offensive to the participants. No one asked you here. You brought yourself.

    No one cares about your fee fees.

  410. 410
    RickD says:

    Demanding that people apologize for imagined racism that you’ve decided to blow out of proportion?

    How very right-wing of you. Michelle Malkin would be proud.

    Enough of the Obama apologies already.

  411. 411
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Raenelle:

    One of the most loyal friends that progressives ever had, Michael Moore,…And this whole attempt to shame Michael Moore, Michael Moore! for FSM’s sake, well . . . straw meet camel’s back

    .
    Seriously, Raenelle, do you think “Roger and Me” did more for auto industry workers than Obama’s detroit bail-out? Do you think “Sicko” got more people health coverage than that ACA?

    This kind of pathetic, obsessive hero worship for people who don’t actually achieve much is one of the things that drives me crazy about the progressive blogosphere.

  412. 412
    MattR says:

    @pete:

    Uh, so you are saying that if you misinterpreted his rhetoric, that’s his fault? I don’t think so.

    I am not saying it is anyone’s fault, but I am saying that it is a real side effect that does exist. (And that it has as much to do with unrealistic expectations as race does)

    @Shade Tail: That is not the post I am referring to. I am referring to this one in reference to the race for Anthony Weiner’s seat.

  413. 413
    Comrade Kevin says:

    @RickD: You’ve just stolen the mayorship of Stupidest Comment on the Thread on foursquare!

  414. 414
    Elie says:

    @Raenelle:

    Have a great life!

    Glad you have those priorities right! The President who retained thousands of union jobs that folks are working in as we speak. Compared to — whaa — a film maker.

    Gosh, how many jobs did Michael save? But you stick with him… I know I know… gotta stay loyal to the guy who entertained you… know how that is…

  415. 415
    Jc says:

    ‘Michael Moore, who has done nothing his entire life but fight for working people, that Michael Moore is now a shit racist.’

    That is the thing, what exactly I’d this post about, written in the way it is written?

    Obama has done some good things for working people, but lots of progressives wanted more – in some cases unrealistically. Michael Moore is one of those people – but his heart IS in the right place.

    I posted on hullabaloo the other day, When Atkins wrote a proof on hoe Obama could have done so much more for progressives.

    It was a crap post, and I criticized it vehemently.

    This is a crap post, written because Moore is criticizing Obama, and using a – clearly inartfully worded, and set up comment set up by joy behar – that Moore said off the cuff.

    It WAS a way to delrgitimize Moore without engaging him in what he is ACTUALLY wanting to say.

    I mean, here is the thing – and as fantasy association maybe this makes me racist, but I would want more Neville Flynn, played by Samuel Jackson, – a dignified black man who is an FBI agent – telling the Rethugs, “I’m tired of these mother-effin republicans trying to blow up the mother effing economy!” (conservatives have authoritarian fantasies about cowboys taking out Indians and foreigners – “the Other” -, liberals have authoritarian fantasies of a black man, preferably Samuel Jackson, who understands that the little guy gets crapped on, “set things right”, and not take anymore B.S.)
    Is that gangster? Is that racist? Heck, I saw some black comedian, who was interviewing Michael Steele – D.L Hughley I think, when he had a talk show – point out that when the country was in the toilet, and the RNC was in the toilet, in both cases, a black man was “chosen”. And hugely said “when you’re in trouble always bet on black.”

    There are ways you can make points about race, without being racist. If Moore had a history of not supporting the little guy, and taking the fight to the elites, a history of supporting disempowering policy, then that is one thing.

    But this?

    It’s a SETUP. Moore IS moronic for not recognizing the limit of what Obama can do, given the bought and paid for Congress.

    And what moore said was badly said.

    But this was using a badly said line, to delegitimize the critic, not an honest assessment.

    It’s a hitjob, so I’ll call the post what it is.

  416. 416
    cokane says:

    ABL

    if you’re still even reading these comments

    just keep in mind that Maher is first and foremost a comedian, and it’s his job to be funny. If he’s not funny, he’s off the air. I think he was just trying to be a little humorous, maybe it wasn’t PC, wasn’t ideal, maybe not even funny. But meh, it isn’t worth getting worked up about. No one takes Maher political prognostications all that seriously.

  417. 417
    Keith G says:

    @Corey: Corey, we disagree. Humans have many things baked in that need to be refined or replaced. In my mind “tribal prejudice” was an evolutionary trait, but modern racism is a choice. The land in the middle I guess will be adjudicated case by case.

  418. 418
    LT says:

    @aisce:

    lt, mattr, alphaliberal, etc., it’s the exact same thread every time, no matter who/what the original topic was. i would have thought after anne laurie’s public humiliation we would have at least earned a couple of weeks’ respite.

    Last time I commented at BJ was in ABL’s post 2 day’s ago on Troy Hauser, and it was to say “Thanks.” I think – I could have missed another comment, but if I did it wasn’t in any flame war – the time before that was a “Nice” in one of ABL’s posts. I usually skip ABL’s flame-bait threads, but I wanted to post in this one, as I think Michel Moore gets unfairly trashed by people on the Left. Sue me.

  419. 419
    Elie says:

    @Jc:

    well I dunno about you, but when my living and reputation depends on what I say, I am usually pretty careful.

    Moore said to me that he did not care what I, a potential consumer of his products, and others, might think of what he said. That is of course, his choice.

    Its not a hit job when someone that I pay money to see or consume his products, offends me. He is not ENTITLED to my support. Like all of us, he has to earn what he gets from the public. We are his respected clients, right?

    Of course, for those of you who feel he is entitled to unquestioned support and your ongoing financial contributions, have at it.

    Not me.

  420. 420
    Comrade Kevin says:

    @cokane: This isn’t about Maher, it’s about Michael Moore.

  421. 421
    John Weiss says:

    White, black? In my experience they all taste the same (with some interesting variation).

    Give it a rest. Forever.

  422. 422
    glasnost says:

    ABL is right; this was some racist shit. But okay, now what? Moore said something racist, and I think ABL’s demand for an apology is appropriate. Yanno, it’s a cliche, but we’re ALL a little bit racist. And sexist. And homophobic. Etc. That’s a totally logical consequence of pickling in this racist patriarchy.

    I have a question. Is it realistic to expect a shared communication sphere in which minority members can use terms describing or denoting a majority member, to expect majority members not to use terms describing themselves?

    Because the way I see it, Michael Moore employed a negative stereotype about white people to make fun of Barack Obama, and the nonwhite stereotype was basically the null hypothesis. A crude, condensed summary of the, so to speak, prosecution’s case would be “I thought I was voting for the [positive connotation] outsider, but I got the insider”, or “I thought I was voting for the projection of courage, but I got the projection of weakness”.

    But you could also describe the joke as “I thought I was voting for the guy with a particular skin color [neutral identification descriptor], but I actually got the [negative stereotype of the majority, crony, etc].

    At worst, it’s a positive stereotype of a minority and a negative stereotype of a majority. Arguably it’s just the negative stereotype of the majority, full stop.

    So… as long as white people continue to make fun of themselves – or nonwhite people make fun of them – in contexts that refer to their whiteness as in some way relevant, i.e. “stuff white people like”, then nonwhite people are going to be, um, victimized by the racism of being described as distinct from the group of white people being made fun of.

    That’s what happened to Moore here. He used a negative stereotype about the majority, and then minority members became offended because they were referenced in a manner that differentiated them from the people being negatively stereotyped.

    The absurdity and complexity of it all is one reason why the grievance, anger, and obnoxiousness does not wear well, and why the whole issue loses most of its power once it becomes based on nothing but language and feelings, rather than tangible discrimination.

  423. 423
    Jc says:

    “for those who think Moore is entitled to unquestioned support”.

    I do cut Moore a lot of slack. I wish Moore would cut Obama more slack, but I’m not looking to delrgitimize Moore because he doesn’t.

  424. 424
    Elie says:

    @glasnost:

    And there is a certain rationality to what you say.

    What I find interesting in your and some of the other comments relates to the sense thsat you are separating language and feelings from “tangible discrimination”, using a medium where we must use language that connotes feelings to determine whether there is indeed underlying discrimination or “racism”. What on earth else would we use but language? Would we have to directly observe Moore slapping a black person and spitting on them? What is the spliting you are doing and what is the purpose of such a refined distinction?

    If I said to my associate that I did not think that my company got the employee that we intended when we hired him, it would not be racist remark necessarily, but it would definitely be offensive, right? Are you saying that being offensive is ok since we have to ignore anything that is spoken cause words are just words, I guess and don’t mean anything or imply value judgements etc, right?

    You try so hard. You just bend your logic to the point of making yourself look, well – what do you want to call it? Insensitive?

  425. 425
    Elie says:

    @Jc:

    What does “deligitimize” even mean?

    He said something stupid but Moore exists. No one is trying to make him not exist or discredit his whole body of work. I think that all was asked for was an apology. would that deligitimize him?

  426. 426
    MariedeGournay says:

    Okay everyone. Take a step back, a deep breath, and enjoy some music.

  427. 427
    TooManyJens says:

    @Jc:

    That is the thing, what exactly I’d this post about, written in the way it is written?

    Call me crazy, but I think it’s about ABL being pissed off that Michael Moore made a racist comment about the President.

  428. 428
    MattR says:

    @Elie: IMO it is not so much a difference of separating words from actions, but rather of looking beyond the words to understand intent. I don’t think either Moore or Maher believe the angry black man stereotype nor do I think that they were trying to reinforce it (although that may have been the actual end result). They were using the stereotype to try and illustrate a point they were making. To me that is different from someone who either actually believes in the stereotype or is intentionally trying to make it more widespread or uses it to actively influence and manipulate people. That doesn’t make what Maher or Moore said acceptable, but there are also cases that would be less acceptable.

    To go to an extreme, we forgive children for saying things that would get adults rightly excoriated because we know that the children don’t know any better and that there is no bad intent.

  429. 429
    Binky the consumer bear says:

    Is it ironic that someone who calls themselves an Angry Black Lady (e.g. stereotypical notion of African American femininity based in ’70s Angela Davis rhetoric) is mad about a Michigan hillbilly using similar stereotypes to make political commentary?

    I myself would have said Chicago school bankster first, but that’s me.

  430. 430
    micah616 says:

    @MattR: So it’s okay to say racist shit in order to illustrate a point in which race is not a factor?

  431. 431
    MattR says:

    @micah616: Uh no. As I said in that comment, “That doesn’t make what Maher or Moore said acceptable”

  432. 432
    micah616 says:

    @MattR: Then if it’s not acceptable, why bother making a distinction between what you think they think they were doing and what they actually did?

  433. 433
  434. 434
    MattR says:

    @micah616: Because I think there are levels of unacceptable. It is the same reason I believe that while someone who thinks a gun is unloaded, pulls the trigger and kills his friend is criminally stupid, he does not deserve the same punishment as someone who searches out and executes an enemy.

  435. 435
    CaliCat says:

    Moore and Maher are cut from the same cloth. Both are condescending white liberals. Instead of commenting on PBO’s race, each one of these fat-headed stooges should take five minutes to look inward and confront their own smug, white superiority. Now that would make for good TV.

  436. 436
    glasnost says:

    @elie:

    The very short version:
    #1. being offensive is sometimes okay. I’m sure about this, because anyone can be offended by anything, and emotional reactions, by anyone, to anything, are not good arbiters of acceptable behavior, by themselves.

    #2. Language is less important than tangible harm. Folks in progressive politics that want to discuss probably non-malicious language issues should avoid getting angry about it. Pretty much regardless of the topic of the language. Their mutual interests are more important than their language issues.

    #3. I think Michael Moore’s comment was a negative comment about the majority group, with the minority group reference being a neutral counteridentifier. I don’t think there’s consistency, by ABL or anyone else, about whether white people can or can not make negative statements about themselves. If they can, it’s probably unavoidable that they will contrast this negative statement about themselves with the nonnegative nonwhiteness of nonwhite people.

    #4. So either everyone should stop making references to ethnicity – ever – in any context – because one references leads to another one, and some people are going to get upset about even references that have nothing to do with their identity group except coincidentally – like this one – or else, maybe we could chill out about humorous positive stereotype references by people who almost certainly aren’t of malicious intent, as the least harmful thing anyone can think of that isn’t literally never mentioning the whole thing, and by ‘chill out’ i mean, try to take a Ta-Nehisi coates take on the whole thing,

    #5. If we instead fling poo everywhere on a blog I read for progressive politics, I will be annoyed.

  437. 437
    Lojasmo says:

    Moore and Mahr can both fuck off. I still will watch Moore’s movies, but bill has been on my shit list for as lomg as huffing ton has.

  438. 438
    Kane says:

    Sometimes I get the impression that some on the left desire a Democratic George Bush, someone who is less interested in accomplishing policy and more interested in pursuing Rovian political battles.

    And sometimes I get the impression that some on the right desire a Republican Barack Obama, someone who has a grasp of the issues and who is a thoughtful and likeable political figure.

  439. 439
    Lojasmo says:

    Is this a record for comments here? Certainly the record for most asinine comments.

  440. 440
    Kane says:

    Jon Meacham: “The idea that there is a pro-Israeli bias in the broad media – whatever ‘the media’ means at this point, I strongly disagree with. I think if anything, you run into a very strong feeling on the Palestinian side.”

    Bill Maher: “I agree.”

    Rachel Maddow: “Who speaks out publicly in a pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli way in mainstream American politics, or media?”

    Bill Maher: “I think everybody. I think most of them do because I think the media, to take up your point, mostly, is way too stupid to understand the issues. So what they do is they go toward, oh, who’s a victim. And yes, their situation in Gaza is tragic, but partly it’s tragic of their own making.”

    That’s when Maher lost me.

  441. 441
    Comrade Kevin says:

    @Kane:

    Sometimes I get the impression that some on the left desire a Democratic George Bush, someone who is less interested in accomplishing policy and more interested in pursuing Rovian political battles.

    Yes, that describes a bunch of people, who often get lumped into the “Professional Left” or “emoprog” categories.

    And sometimes I get the impression that some on the right desire a Republican Barack Obama, someone who has a grasp of the issues and who is a thoughtful and likeable political figure.

    Where are these people? There may be some of them, but haven’t seen any in years and years.

  442. 442
    micah616 says:

    @MattR: Either way, somebody’s still dead. To the family of the dead man, intellectual wankery about stupid vs malicious is just insulting, as their loved one is still dead. But this isn’t a murder case.

    That said, to the best of my knowledge, Michael Moore does not have a track record of saying racist shit. On the View, he did say something racist. He needs to apologize. That’s all. Well, he may also want to recognize why what he said was racist and endeavor not to make the same mistake or at the very least keep his privilege to himself.

    Too many people here, though, can’t or won’t recognize that Michael Moore said some racist shit and are twisting themselves up trying to separate what (they think) he meant from what he (actually) said, and looking real suspect as they do it. That’s vastly more depressing than Moore sticking his foot in his mouth.

  443. 443
    Kane says:

    @Comrade Kevin:

    Where are these people? There may be some of them, but haven’t seen any in years and years.

    I think it explains in part the republican anguish of desperately seeking to find a dynamic frontman to sell their weak product. They have been searching for their rising star ever since Reagan died.

  444. 444
    handy says:

    @Lojasmo:

    No. And no.

    BTW, Bill Maher: didn’t he have a “thing” with Ann Coulter once? I’m just asking. It would be irresponsible not to.

  445. 445
    Donut says:

    @Lysana:

    Points all well taken and I wouldn’t quibble with a single one. That said, while frustration and its attendant emotional reactions (and counter-reactions) are perfectly understandable, people of color have to be willing to also slow down, back up, and educate people who identify as “white”. If they don’t, white people will never learn. And yeah, that maybe puts an extra burden on people of color in our culture, but WTF else is education and dialogue good for? In other words, I’m glad ABL got pissed, glad to see her call this out. Context: I’m not really white but I sorta pass for “white” most of the time, so I kinda see this from a couple of angles, and I come down strongly on the side of disgust at the constant need many seem to have to racially contextualize everything President Obama does or doesn’t do. But slamming down the ball and retreating from the game is also the wrong tack. You know, if you’re not a person of color, if you’ve never really been the outsider looking in, culturally, then duh, there is a decent chance you’re not really gonna ‘get’ what ABL is saying. Fuckit, even if you are not a white person, you might not get it. I wish we could slow down sometimes and ignore the predictable carping and try to explain to each other what the fuck we are talking about. I feel like of course people have every right to be frustrated and annoyed at people who may have lost the plot — would it be better to maybe explain the plot to them, then, rather than just tell them that they are stupid? I don’t have the answer, just thinking and typing at the same time.

  446. 446
    raptusregaliter says:

    So let me get this straight: A blogger who regularly traffics in perceived racial slights and calls herself Angry Black Lady is shocked, SHOCKED that she elicits racially-tinged and/or racist comments. And she wants everybody to knock it off. Except for her.

    This is a big reason why I always skip over any post with her name attached to it. But I guess that makes me a hater too.

    I guess the ban will commence in 3…2…1…

  447. 447
    Paul in KY says:

    @Shawn in ShowMe: I too wish Pres. Obama was a little more like F.D.R. Maybe he feels he can’t savage them the way Pres. Roosvelt did.

  448. 448
    Paul in KY says:

    @Morzer: Those are the unfortunate optics the MSM is very happy to traffic in, IMO.

    FDR spoke scathingly about Republicans, told the truth about them, I think. He said he ‘welcomed their hatred’. Pres. Obama should acknowledge it & welcome it also.

  449. 449
    david mizner says:

    Good post. It’s really not hard to blast President Obama without saying racist things. Really, it’s not. I do it all the time.

  450. 450
    agrippa says:

    Moore makes polemical films. I do not expect him to say measured and well considered things. I expect polemics.
    A polemic is what we got.

    Consider the source.

  451. 451
    kindness says:

    You know, I don’t think mentioning race makes a thing racist. I don’t think making fun of stereotypes, which is how I see the statement, is a racist statement.

    Get over yourselves. Some times a cigar is just a cigar.

  452. 452
    Social outcast says:

    @Kane: George Bush accomplished a lot for his wealthy backers. Got them a giant tax cut, gutted regulatory agencies, started wars to benefit their defense portfolios, etc. The policies he wanted might have been bad for the health of the country, but he did pretty much what he was supposed to do. Even made a credible stab at ending social security and replacing it with a big boon for Wall Street. Very successful presidency from the perspective of the wealthy business owner or CEO. If you weren’t one of these, you were kind of fucked over. But that’s what republicans do.

  453. 453
    Egypt Steve says:

    @Matthew: You must be Matthew the famous population biologist. Can you enlighten us on what a “real” race is, and how you know who belongs to it by non-sketchy standards?

  454. 454
    Jane2 says:

    @raptusregaliter: If you skip over ABL’s posts (the reasonable thing to do if you don’t care for the blogger’s posts), what’s your motive for making this troll-like comment?

  455. 455
    EH_CBunny says:

    Angry B,

    Tell the truth. Wasn’t one of the reason why you voted for Obama, was that he was Black?

    And on the day of his inauguration, wasn’t you proud the he was the first Black President?

    B, you’re a bigot, too. Deal with it, and don’t hate when someone else states an opinion you don’t hold.

  456. 456
    John D. says:

    @kindness: When the ONLY axis of differentiation in a comparative statement is race, it is a racist statement. Doesn’t matter if it is positive, neutral, or negative. You are differentiating solely on race.

    “I voted for the black guy, and what we got was the white guy” is racist. The only comparison there is race.

  457. 457
    Matt says:

    As someone who almost never agrees with you ABL, I say “right the fuck on!”

    I’m a white progressives and there are far too many of us who think we’re immune to racism by virtue of being progressives. No, the values you claim to have are not what do or do not make you a racist. Its the values you live. If you’re someone who feels comfortable making a racist wisecrack with an audience of millions then you’re being racist regardless of how awesome and virtuous you think your politics are.

  458. 458
    dww44 says:

    @Elie: So, you characterize yourself as the adult in this thread? I don’t think so. But, wait, I believe I did take my blanky and my warm milk and go to bed, so that makes me the child with childish views, right? No way that that could be far more descriptive of your posts than of those who happen to proffer an opinion contrary to that which you espouse?

    One thing I do like about the GOS is that comments like yours, which consistently and personally denigrate those who offer an opposing view, are tolerated a lot less than they are here.

  459. 459
    grandpajohn says:

    @lamh32: Does that include us white southerners who are not red necks or hillbillys or ignorant cousin marrying white trash and is college educated and voted for Obama?

  460. 460
    mere mortal says:

    ah, here we go. should i just sit quietly over here and wait for well-meaning white folks to tell me what i should be angry about? fuck that noise.

    Indeed that is good advice. I shall also endeavor not to sit quietly and wait for some well-meaning folks to tell me what I should be angry about.

    So much whitesplanation, so little time! I’m out of this thread. You can catch me on Twitter or on my blog.

    “whitesplanation?” Fuck that noise. Good riddance, hypocrite.

  461. 461
    stinkfoot says:

    Criticize Obama for not being liberal enough, tough enough, angry enough — but black enough? That’s plain stupid. And, yes, racist.

    Calling Michael Moore out on it is not calling him a racist, it’s calling his comments racist. Even well-meaning liberals can spew racist nonsense, especially if they traffic in stereotypes that have nothing to do with the actual person.

  462. 462
    SamInMpls says:

    The quality of privilege is not strained.
    It droppeth as bullshit from the cheeks
    Upon the heads beneath. It is twice blighted:
    It blights him that gives and him that takes.
    Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
    The throned monarch better than his crown.
    His scepter shows the force of temporal power,
    The attribute to awe and majesty,
    Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings.
    But privilege is above this sceptered sway;
    It is enthroned in the hearts of kings;
    It is an attribute of God himself;
    And earthly power doth then show like God’s
    When privilege seasons justice.

    So, yeah, privilege sucks for everyone.

    I know it is relatively easier for white males to forget or deny their own privilege, at least when compared to everyone else in this country. It might be easier to deny if you are a conservative or forget if you are a liberal and therein, I think, is the rub.

    The white male liberal might feel like an apostate to non-liberal white males. He might even feel like a full-fledged rainbow warrior who has fully rejected his tribal affiliation but that doesn’t change the larger social dynamics at work, nor does it alter the imperatives attached with acting in solidarity.

    The social justice movement needs to roll up all of these struggles into a giant burrito of freedom and equality and then shove it down the gullets of reactionaries everywhere, but it won’t get there until privilege is acknowledged and stances of solidarity are attached to being, rather than identity.

    Or not.

  463. 463
    stinkfoot says:

    @EH_CBunny: That’s nonsense. You can be proud that he overcame racial barriers to win a politically significant position in our democracy without resorting to racial chauvanism. I don’t know what motivated ABL to vote for Obama — there were many different reasons, some ideological, some political, some personal — and I won’t presume to read her mind. But calling out Michael Moore for ignorant statements that imply political expectations based on his racial identity doesn’t make them a bigot, it makes them a critic of bigotry.

  464. 464
    admiralmpj says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Don’t worry. Maher has a high enough opinion of himself.

  465. 465
    OContrair says:

    Ah, con circle jerks are so much fun to watch and then ignore. Your multicultural bona fides are NEVER in doubt, children. LOFL!!!

  466. 466

    […] can see the full interview with Moore here as well as some of Maher’s commentary that Moore is referencing. It really is pretty […]

  467. 467

    […] Who are the stupidest racists of all time?  You’d expect tough competition, right?  But Michael Moore and Bill Maher sweep the field. […]

  468. 468
    Bob Dole says:

    You’re an idiot.

Trackbacks & Pingbacks

  1. […] Who are the stupidest racists of all time?  You’d expect tough competition, right?  But Michael Moore and Bill Maher sweep the field. […]

  2. […] can see the full interview with Moore here as well as some of Maher’s commentary that Moore is referencing. It really is pretty […]

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