This is not a surprise to anyone who doesn’t have their head up their ass:
A special investigation has determined that the Navy violated its own policy by keeping WikiLeaks suspect Bradley Manning on extended suicide watch.
Indeed, the commander of the Marine base chose to ignore psychiatrists who concluded Manning posed no threat to himself.
Navy violated own policy over WikiLeaks suspect”On two occasions … a medical officer determined suicide risk status was no longer warranted and the brig staff did not immediately take PFC Manning off the suicide risk status,” Chief Warrant Officer-5 Abel Galaviz wrote in a recent report obtained by Politico.
“Once the medical officer’s evaluation was provided to brig staff, steps should have been taken to immediately remove him from suicide risk, to a status below that.”
Manning – a junior Army intelligence analyst – was arrested in May 2010 for allegedly aiding the enemy and leaking classified/unclassified files from military computer networks.
While on suicide watch, Manning was routinely ordered to strip and put on a “suicide proof” smock before going to sleep.
Manning’s treatment prompted then-State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley to criticize the military, calling the policy “ridiculous, counterproductive and stupid.”
It was patently obvious to anyone that what they were doing to Manning was to both punish him and attempt to break him- not to keep him safe, as many armchair commandos and internet tough guys in the comments here and elsewhere asserted. They were psychologically abusing him. Even THEY admit it now.
This was crazy to watch- it was obvious that what was going on was that his jailers were fucking with him and doing this to punish and damage him psychologically, but liberals who would have blown a gasket if this happened during the Bush years decided it was more important that Jane Hamsher is an asshole and Glenn Greenwald is long-winded than to admit what was going on. And then there are just the garden variety sociopaths who masquerade as liberals who think they look tough and cool by saying stupid shit like “You betray the country you deserve what you get.”
Oh well.
joes527
Oh this is going to get loud.
Rabble Arouser
Glenn and Jane aside, this really is a low point for the country. We are supposed to be the white hats in this movie, even (especially) when it isn’t convenient.
Sleeper
Thanks for posting this, John. There have been a few too many comments here lately glibly condemning Manning without a trial just because this happened during the Obama Administration.
capt
No sure which “liberals” you speak of but this Manning thing has had me PO’ed from the start. Of course they are trying to break him – it is what they do.
And Jane Hamsher is an asshole.
Not sure why you strike out with such a broad brush, if you have an issue with someone tell them, not all liberals.
Just Some Fuckhead
What ever happened to Joe From Lol?
Just Some Fuckhead
Nice call, capt, pre-immunizing yourself. Won’t work tho.
Han's Solo
It really was disgraceful. No excuses.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
Given the general attitude surrounding the whole thing, from all sides, combined with the rest of the bullshit gone around, I’ve pretty much given up any hope or illusions of anything ever going right in this country ever again.
We’ve fallen way down that slippery slope of authoritarian nuttery, and the country just hates all those fucking bleeding hard stupid fucking dirty hippies to give a shit anymore.
The Tragically Flip
My favourite line was the one that said you weren’t allowed to be mad about Manning’s treatment unless you were a bona fide prison reform activist because other prisoners in America also get put in solitary for long periods and that proves your concern about Manning was somehow insincere.
RandyH
I always felt their first motivation for the way they treated him was to make an example of him, as a warning to any other would-be whistle-blowers. Like that guy at the NSA that they finally were unable to prosecute.
jwest
“And Jane Hamsher is an asshole.”
Finally, some common ground.
I feel a whole new era of bipartisan agreement in the wind.
ABL
Wow, Cole. You must be hungover. :)
joes527
capt
What part of “garden variety sociopaths who masquerade as liberals” are you having trouble parsing?
Is your liberalism a mask behind which you hide the fact that you are a sociopath? If not, then it wasn’t directed at you.
Glad we could clear that up.
scav
This, plus the Irish Church telling the Vatican off and the whole Murdoch thing . . . If it weren’t for the mad dash for national insolvency in the name of FREEDOM and ECONOMIC SANTITY ™ ® !, I’d be having a pretty good week.
General Stuck
I am glad that Manning now is being treated better than he was, and under the correct standard if he is not actually suicidal. Looks like a righteous special investigation did its duty, even if late.
OzoneR
This country lynched innocent people in my grandparents lifetime and THIS is a low point for the country?!?!
ABL
First, Jane Hamsher is an asshole.
And second:
is horseshit.
Third, you might should go back to being a teetotaler.
eemom
@ ABL
I think he must be bored out of his mind. I mean he’s basically just tossing scraps of meat to start dog fights at this point.
ETA: hey Cole, if you need something to do…..there’s a little matter of a missing Reply button that could use some TLC.
ABL
agreed.
shano
They wanted Manning to fabricate a story about collusion with Julian Assange. No doubt in my mind. Just like they did every single ‘War on Terrah’ prisoner. Fabricate the evidence by torturing a prisoner, and then frame that as the honest truth.
Torture works for an authoritarian state, especially if they are trying to fabricate evidence out of thin air or frame a narrative in order to get what they want. Damn the real evidence.
Redshift
A low point, not the low point. Otherwise we’d get into “you’re not allowed to point out how bad this is if something else is worse.”
scav
It’s Bastille Day. Good day for rioting.
Gus diZerega
This country has had a number of pretty low points, but this behavior has the added vileness of being bipartisan for all too many. It was fine when “your side” did it.
Well said John.
ABL
seriously. fuck it, imma post my hamsher post and then let’s see if balloon juice will actually implode on itself.
eemom
@ ABL
you go woman! Let ‘er rip!!
Han's Solo
@OzoneR:
That. Also too, “manifest destiny.”
None of which changes the fact that Jane Hamsher is an asshole.
And we aren’t republicans. We are perfectly capable of being pissed off about Bradley Manning and realizing Hamsher is a rat fucker.
RossinDetroit
In Boing Boing comments that’s called a TAGETODM Strategy: There Are Greater Evils, This One Doesn’t Matter.
middlewest
What’s ironic is that he’s probably far more likely to commit suicide now, considering how screwed up he was to begin with.
I’m not clear what those low-level Republican pundits you named have to do with anything.
ABL
I’m loving what will surely be a 500 comment argument about a strawman — that liberals were ok with it because Obama did it.
My issue (and the issue of many here, IIRC) was never “what the Obama administration does is fine” but rather from whom the facts about what was going on were spewing.
I love how “I want to know what is going on” becomes “I’m fellating Obama.”
What a giant load of horseshit.
General Stuck
Goforit. All the leave jane alone tears can be captured to sweeten my tea.
Lolis
I think the people who kept Manning on the hold against medical advice should be punished. I also was glad when vocal critics called out the White House over his treatment. However, the USA has done far worse things to people all over the world. This barely rates on that scale.
I just have to laugh about Jane’s newest screed calling people who support President Obama “the dumbest motherfuckers” on the earth. But I think being called dumb by someone like her is pretty high praise.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@OzoneR–
I can cosign that– let’s say a low point for the country in this young century.
It sure as fuck ain’t nothin’ to celebrate.
The Tragically Flip
That, is why you fail.
ABL
clevah!
Bruce S
ABL – I didn’t think you were an asshole before I read this thread. But you’ve finally convinced me. I read shit in a comments thread here – under one of your posts – that Manning “could have gotten us all killed” and should be “crucified.”
If you don’t think that there are “liberals” who rationalize shit under Obama’s watch that they wouldn’t have defended under Bush, you don’t read the comments in your own posts. Actually, I’d have to say on reflection that maybe you’re not even reading your own posts.
And who gives a flying fuck about Jane Hamsher? I don’t and never have. What does bother me is when Hamsher is used as a scarecrow to avoid dealing with any serious criticisms of the White House. It’s almost pathological on the part of the commenters in your recent posts.
Omnes Omnibus
Well, it looks like my questions were answered. I always wanted to know if Manning was being treated worse than other prisoners in pretrial detention. If he was, it would indicate that he was being fucked with either as punishment or as an interrogation technique. If not, then the way prisoners were treated in pretrial detention was barbaric but what was happening to Manning was par for the course (but still wrong). It looks as though it was the former.
Linnaeus
Implode? You kiddin’ me? This blog loves that shit.
Sleeper
If they’re accurate, the source should be irrelevant.
scav
And Gov. Moonbeam is going to make them teach the History of the Ghey. Joyous meltdown to be. That’s it. I’m buying alcohol and declaring this week a good one.
soonergrunt
@lolis, 31
THIS. To each and every sentence of your posting.
And being asked to trust anything written by someone who partners with Grover F. Norquist to advance progressive causes is like being asked to trust Dick F. Cheney to do the right thing.
Rabble Arouser
@OzoneR
What Redshift said. I know there have been some REALLY nasty low points in this country, and I don’t mean to denigrate any of them by saying that this is a low point for us.
signifyingmnky
This is kind of ridiculous. The story on Manning is a bit more complicated than some would like to admit. He has a complicated history, and from what I’ve read on it, I wouldn’t take any suggestion of a suicide attempt from him as a joke.
That said, doctors should have had the final say in whether he stayed on watch or not, and I hope those responsible for ignoring that, whatever their motives, are held accountable.
And that said, his extended suicide watch says nothing whatsoever about his innocence or guilt.
ABL
But you’ve finally convinced me. I read shit in a comments thread here – under one of your posts – that Manning “could have gotten us all killed” and should be “crucified.”
joes527
ABL
Actually, I think that was exactly John’s point
It was more important to shit on those that you hate than to discuss what was going on.
PIGL
@Bruce S-35
I’m sorry to have to say “this.”
Everything John said was demonstrably true. Yet here they are, the legless, righteously and furiously trying to stand.
ruemara
1. Jane Hamsher? grifting asshole.
2. Glenn Greenwald? Smart, narrowminded asshole who is a liberaltarian. Sometimes right, sometimes wrong. Not gonna just whole heartedly support him without checking some facts. Period. I do that with everyone, he gets no pass.
3. Manning isn’t just someone who was a whistleblower on criminal actions the military has done, he’s a guy who violated his trust on thousands of documents from the banal to the secure. Sadly, I’m not sure of his motivations. Yes, that would mean something for me. He did something good in the middle of doing something bad. I’m not convinced he was trying to be the hero he’s portrayed as.
4. There’s been a hunger strike going on amoungst prisoners in Pelican Bay for better holding conditions. I’ll believe the people supporting Manning if they know how long that hunger strike has been on without hitting the Goog. You think the military is or was trying to break him? They probably were, but I think he was going through our normal sadistic prison techniques. YMMV.
Do I think this was wrong? Yes. Was there an investigation? Yes. Is his incarceration better? Yes. Do I think he should be freed as a whistleblower? No. I think I’d like to see thorough investigation.
j low
@ABL- Jane Hamsher has done a pretty good job of convincing me that she is an unhinged nutcase over the last few years. I have really enjoyed some of your posts since you joined Balloon Juice, but you are starting to make a pretty compelling case for yourself.
ABL
you’re missing my point: greenwald and hamsher were relaying stories that were, in my view, improperly sourced. that was always what my issue was. you can go back and check my comments if you like. if what they said went on actually went on, then yeah, that’s fucked up and i would be as outraged as anyone.
but to tell me that i should accept an attorney’s narrative of a story as THE story, is asinine. and it’s no less asinine today than it was 8 months ago.
i will not be lumped in to the “he asked for it” crowd or, the “it’s okay if you’re obama” crowd.
my point is really not at all difficult to understand.
Svensker
Yes, but Glenn Greenwald gets snippy and hysterical and lives in Brazil and Jane Hamsher is a twit, so who cares what happens to Bradley Manning?
Like you, John, I heard a buncha folks say this kinda stuff here back then.
Oh well.
ABL
i honestly do not care. i don’t live for the opinions of others. i say what i feel is the truth.
Bruce S
I just want to say in response to ABL that she was dimissing the notion that “liberals” held the position noted by John. I repeat that if she read the comments under her own posts, she’d know that at least some do.
I didn’t say that she herself had said those things about Manning. That should have been obvious. But whatever… Also, I do happen to be “pro-military” – like Michele Obama. My son just finished a four-year stint in the Navy and I’m proud of his service. My pastor’s son is recovering from injuries suffered in Afghanistan.
Nor do I give a flying fuck what you think of me. But if you want people off your fucking back, don’t post shit on the internet. Easy out for ya!
Tonal Crow
Jesus H. Kee-rist on a crutch made of the True Cross and sanctified by 53 Popes does everything on this site have to be about she who I’m not going to name?
ABL
i should add that this is tumor time for me, so i’m more angry than usual, but i really am so sick of this crap.
also, i agree with ruemara.
Ash Can
I’m no fan of Bradley Manning, but this is nothing but good news. Now if they’d just bring him to trial and resolve this whole sorry mess.
aisce
@ eemom, abl
um, way to prove cole’s point? and then call him an alcoholic and run away to a safer thread.
that’s…something, i guess. but whatever, i’m just glad that the military’s overreach was limited to mere humiliation and medical malpractice, rather than the more sock full of batteries or waterboarding variety. progress. and that the government can now proceed to try the traitor properly and justly, rather than sabotaging their own cause. oh, and p.j. crowley still seems like a good guy and its a shame he had to lose his job behind this. instead of the people who were responsible all the way up the chain.
ABL
what a nonsense comment. you fired off with “i’m beginning to think you’re an asshole” or whatever. i didn’t purport to give an opinion on your character.
SCOFF.
ABL
i didn’t call him an alcoholic, nutbag. i was referencing his shenanigans on twitter (which i applauded, by the way, and you would know that if you bothered to think before you spout off).
mantis
I never weighed in on this because I couldn’t know what was really going on (and I wasn’t about to take his lawyer’s word for it). But I have a question.
It was patently obvious to anyone that what they were doing to Manning was to both punish him and attempt to break him- not to keep him safe
it was obvious that what was going on was that his jailers were fucking with him and doing this to punish and damage him psychologically
How was this obvious? Based on what?
joes527
<a href="https://balloon-juice.com/2011/07/14/oh-hey-look-at-that/#comment-2671781"<ABL
scroll … scroll … scroll
you didn’t just deny that you are in the “it’s okay if you’re obama” crowd. You called the idea that that crowd has been seen in these parts … “horseshit”
Badly sourced (and demonstrably untrue)
RP
I’ve always assumed the suicide watch thing was bogus and that he was being mistreated, and I’m glad they investigated this. But I’ve also always felt that Manning and his treatment are very, very insignificant issues compared to the 1000s of other problems facing this country, and that people like Hamsher and Greenwald were wasting everyone’s time (and engaging in a lot of self promotion) by focusing so much on him. And my feelings on the latter point haven’t changed.
scav
It’s also good that there was an investigation and a decision and the decision was made public and stupid actions got yelled at. It’s almost like there was an actual system to investigate and redress situations and all. Three fucking cheers for a functioning bureaucracy!
HyperIon
JSF @5 (goddamn you, absent reply thingy) wrote:
I’ve been wondering that recently.
I think he got tired of you and went someplace else. ;=)
joes527
FYWP.
That is all.
ABL
“but liberals who would have blown a gasket if this
happened during the Bush years decided it was more
important that
Jane Hamsher is an asshole and GlennJane Hamsher and Glenn Greenwald properly source their claims before seeking my participation in outrage.”Greenwald is long-winded than to admit what was going on
there.
that’s my final word in this thread because i have to go to lunch and happy hour.
peas out.
HyperIon
Mantis @58 (goddamn you, absent reply thingy) wrote:
Wow. If more people thought like you, there would be about 10 comments per post at B-J.
ABL
@59 – that comment was directed to someone who claimed that liberals were making those claims under my threads, as if such comments could be imputed to me.
that is all.
now seriously. whisky.
Bruce S
ABL – the SCOFF is that you made a bullshit dismissal of Cole’s comment that is easily refuted by reading the comments under your own posts. And, frankly, to at least some degree the gist of your own defense of shit like Obama’s “Grand Bargaining” with Medicare eligibility and folding all criticism of Obama into some issue about Jane Hamsher. As I rudely noted, I didn’t think you were as lame as some of your commenters in this regard until I read your retort of “bullshit” to Cole. As for opening with “asshole”, I’m not a particularly nice person at times. Big fucking deal. I was treated to a lot worse by some of the inane fuckheads lined up behind you in some previous posts.
Not an Obamabot
This fucking place.
Lawnguylander
@The Tragically Flip
That sounds like a very simple mischaracterization of arguments of that type that I’ve read. People are raped and killed in US prisons every day and I doubt many people who aren’t related to them could name many of them. And there’s going to be much more where that came from far out into the future and nobody who loudly cares about Bradley Manning is going to make a peep or lose sleep over their suffering. Manning has it better than most Americans who are jailed for serious crimes. I’d much rather be in his shoes than locked up on Riker’s Island. Fucking with Manning is wrong but I don’t believe those people deserve what they get any more than Bradley Manning and they get it worse. So while I don’t question that anyone’s concern for Manning is sincere, I feel bad for him too, his supporters’ portrayal of his treatment as some uniquely horrible thing is in fact ludicrous and offensive. I think the truth is they don’t think he should be in prison at all because they think what he did was not morally wrong, just the opposite, but they know legally the kid doesn’t have a leg to stand on so his treatment is what they focus on. So, yes, they’re guilty of being kind of full of shit. The treatment of prisoners in the US is not any of their concern unless there’s a political angle. Let me know when one of the many innocent Americans locked up for life in awful conditions becomes a cause célèbre for those involved in the Bradley Manning outrage industry. I won’t be holding my breath.
srv
Reminds me of the time Jose Padilla tried to shout down his judge and questioned the courts authority to rule on his imprisonment under unitary executive theory.
MattR
@ABL: Bruce S never claimed that you were responsible for comments making those claims. His point was that you were pretending like those comments did not exist when in fact they were occurring in your threads (which means that you should at least be aware of their existence)
joes527
ABL
Your comment I quoted was #17
The comment where someone noticed that the “it’s okay if you’re obama” crowd have been known to comment under your posts was #35
Now, ignoring that you inferred the imputation to you, rather than the commenter implying it ….
Your account of what you said would require time travel on your part to be accurate.
Are you the Dr?
Bruce S
“Bullshit!” The point – which was clear unless you didn’t want it to be – was that commenters in your own threads had exhibited precisely what Cole was referencing – and which you dismissed simply as an absurd assertion.
David Lyons
@ABL 50 – “i don’t live for the opinions of others”. I know that’s right. Her job is to shill for Obama by attacking the credibility of his critics. The Obama Admin, as other Admins, employs numerous people to do just that. I would recommend to anyone who would like to read intelligent analysis of Obama and his Admin from the Black perspective to visit Black Agenda Report. ABL’s superficial ghetto analysis and commentary is an embarrassment.
boss bitch
don’t give a shit about the left’s last flavor of the month.
bystander
Oldest rhetorical trick in the book. When you can’t defeat the message, attack the messenger.
Well said, John Cole. Well said.
les
@Lawnguylander:
It’s a good point, Islander; but this is (pretty much) always how it works–an abuse is highlighted because there’s a different-than-usual hook, some people who came for the hook see the abuse and stay involved, sometimes things get better for the folks the general public don’t care directly about. It’s not helpful (not that I think you’re doing this) to tell people their concerns don’t matter ’cause they didn’t care about these other folks; better to say, “yeah, this is bad shit, and look over here, it’s all over the fucking place, let’s broaden the outrage.”
Just Some Fuckhead
Cole vs. ABL is like Steelers vs. Browns. I gotta root for injuries.
aisce
@ abl
i care deeply about the contents of cole’s twitter feed. yours too, for the record. i don’t know how i missed it.
my sincere apologies for accusing you and eemom of trying to pass off outright cowardice as gregarious flippancy, when it was clearly…no cowardice works. enjoy your hamsher thread.
Just Some Fuckhead
This twitter fad can’t last.
mistermix
I just wanted to stop in and note the conspicuous absence of burnsbesq, chief Assange hater and defender of Manning’s treatment.
Mr. Poppinfresh
She literally cannot touch the internet without shitting it up.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
Or, y’know, there was the rest of us who thought that Manning being an antagonistic punkass rubbed the military establishment the wrong way and the brig staff decided to unleash their inner Colonel Jessup. No tears will be shed if any court martials are brought up on this, but the Executive Power DVD is staying in the case.
kalyarn
@Lawnguylander
We probably think he shouldn’t be in prison because he hasn’t been tried and convicted of anything yet. We’d need that before we can think he’s an innocent man in prison.
And one of the aspects of his treatment we focus on is that he’s being denied a speedy trial. Which would then get us to the point where you could more accurately deride supporters for actively supporting him and not other people convicted by the state.
WaterGirl
Just Some Fuckhead
If it’s Joe from Lowell you are wondering about, he is posting on Booman Tribune these days. If you are asking about some other Joe, well, never mind.
Tonal Crow
@kalyarn:
If we really believed in the presumption of innocence, pretrial imprisonment would be the rare exception rather than the de facto rule. The fact is that pretrial imprisonment often amounts to a punishment. If longer than a few days, it almost guarantees that the accused will lose her job, her home, and quite possibly her children (if any) — irrespective of whether she’s ever tried for the accusation, and irrespective of the (often horrid) conditions of detention.
Stillwater
I’m just curious why ABL took Cole’s post so personally. That’s not like her.
kalyarn
@Tonal Crow
I agree with your statement, but it is incorrectly placed here. Your statement is the response to someone who says “She only spent a few days in jail before she was released, big whoop!” because it ignores the damage done to a person’s life who may never have been tried.
Manning has been held for an entire year in conditions which, as has been documented elsewhere, have the potential to cause serious mental problems for the individual. I just believe there is a material difference between (1) the many convicted prisoners suffering in our awful prison system, (2) the many poor people who suffer unwarrentedly in the usually short pre-trial holding system (15-30 days), and (3) Bradley Manning’s situation.
If you’re arguing that pre-trial detention of a year in length (with no trial date set at all) is more the norm, then I would need to research that. I based my time regular pre-trial on this which I admit I have not researched fully.
OzoneR
If you listen to my grandfather’s stories of what the military did to its own when they were caught with strippers during the Korean war era, this isn’t even a low point.
Daveboy
Just wanted to say that some of you clearly missed the dozen times or so that Greenwald said he was up in arms about Bradley Manning’s treatment because it was designed to scare the shit out of whisteblowers and Wikileaks people.
“If you leak evidence of government corruption, we will abduct and torture you or abduct and torture someone who knows you until they turn on you” is a pretty dangerous precedent to be setting.
Tonal Crow
@kalyarn: I am using Manning’s case to segue into a more general argument that pretrial detention (beyond that needed to book a person) should be rare, because (1) it acts as punishment without conviction; (2) it undermines the presumption of innocence; and (3) we seem unable to treat pretrial detainees (and other prisoners) humanely. And while I’m at it, I want to add (4) it impedes the accused’s ability to mount an effective defense.
Daveboy
“If you listen to my grandfather’s stories of what the military did to its own when they were caught with strippers during the Korean war era, this isn’t even a low point.”
I’d like to hear this if it’s possible.
Lawnguylander
@les
I think Manning is a poor candidate for the face of a broadened outrage campaign. It seems pretty probable that he released those documents and I don’t see evidence that he’s been treated so harshly that he’d ever get a lot of sympathy by pushing that angle. And the latter is what his advocates have been focusing on for the most part. I don’t think they’re doing him any good, let alone a broader population of inmates. It seems to me that the kid’s best hope is an insanity plea. I think it would be a tragedy if a kid who probably is insane were to spend the rest of his life in jail. I wonder if he wouldn’t be better served in the long run if he stayed on suicide watch. Or, shorter me, nobody who’s yelling about Bradley Manning appears to give a genuine fuck about mounting a campaign that’s in his best interests. Just buy my book or become an FDL member before you move on to the next thing.
burnspbesq
@shano:
“They wanted Manning to fabricate a story about collusion with Julian Assange. ”
No one with any functioning brain cells left doubts that one of the objectives of Manning’s treatment was to get him to give up his co-conspirators. That’s hardly a new or startling insight.
Perhaps you’d like to tell us your factual basis (and your making shit up out of thin air doesn’t count as a factual basis) for concluding that Manning rolling over on Assange would have been a “fabrication.” There is plenty of evidence in the public domain (including, but not limited to, the infamous chat logs) that suggests otherwise.
The Dangerman
I may be purposely forgetful (would hardly be the first time), but I recall the argument around these virtual parts being about solitary confinement being, by default, torture. I don’t recall any discussions at all on any “suicide watches” because, well, I wouldn’t know if Manning was or was not suicidal.
I’ll presume he remains in solitary, where he is most definitely not being tortured.
Stillwater
@burnspbesq: There is plenty of evidence in the public domain (including, but not limited to, the infamous chat logs) that suggests otherwise.
Well, there surely isn’t ‘plenty’. Plus, if material evidence was out there is would have already emerged given the resources and desires of the Fed Gov. So the whole jig was a hail-mary to get Manning to implicate Assange himself. Nahgannaha.
Lawnguylander
@kalyarn
People accused of the kinds of crimes he’s been accused of are never going to walk free while awaiting trial.
Rikers Island, which I mentioned above, holds thousands of inmates awaiting trial and denied bail or unable to afford it. I’m not only talking about people already convicted. But are you saying that once people are convicted by the state, “fuck them”? That’s what it sounds like. As for the speediness of his trial, I have no idea. Is it a tack for getting his charges dismissed?
Omnes Omnibus
@ Lawnguylander:: Generally, the speedy trial rules are that a defendant must be brought to trial within 90 days if he/she is in pretrial confinement. This, however, is not a bright line rule. The time can be tolled (stopped/put on hiatus/not counted) for a variety of reasons. For example, if the defense requests psych tests, the time it takes to have them performed does not count against the speedy trial time. In addition, the defense can waive the speedy trial requirements in order to have sufficient time to investigate and prepare a defense. Since Manning’s counsel does not seem to have raised (to my knowledge) a speedy trial issue, I figured he had waived it.
kalyarn
@Omes Omnibus
Manning’s lawyer filed in regards to a speedy trial at the start of the year.
Omnes Omnibus
@ kalyarn: Okay then. He hasn’t waived it. Again though, speedy trial rights are a fairly elastic concept.
Mike G
We can expect a wrist slap with a wet noodle for the military personnel involved, or an “Our bad, we’ll do better next time” rug-sweep. That is, if it isn’t “Looking forward, not backward” time and doing jack shit.
kalyarn
@Lawnguylander
No, it doesn’t sound like I’m saying that at all.
sneezy
@ ABL, 43
I’m never going to understand why anyone thinks that “If you don’t like what I say, just ignore it” makes any sense.
When you speak in public, you open yourself up to criticism and disagreement. That’s the way it works. Don’t like it? TFB. The idea that anyone who might disagree should “familiarize [themselves] with [their] scroll button” is spineless.
It also always a case of someone not following their own advice.
kalyarn
@Lawnguylander
Additionally, what it sounds like you’re saying is:
“I would prefer to spend 1 year of my life in solitary confinement, without having any idea if I will ever be tried or released, rather than 5 to 30 days in Rikers Island, knowing that it is very unlikely it will be more.”
Is this correct?
ornery
And who gives a flying fuck about Jane Hamsher? I don’t and never have. What does bother me is when Hamsher is used as a scarecrow to avoid dealing with any serious criticisms of the White House. It’s almost pathological on the part of the commenters in your recent posts.
Well said, Bruce S.!
Lawnguylander
@Omnes Omnibus
Thanks for the info on the speedy trial issue.
@kalyarn
Does too.
No. I was just talking about the conditions under which he’s being held vs. the conditions at Rikers. I’d definitely rather take my chances facing trial for the kind of charges I’d likely ever get sent to Rikers for than face the kind of charges Bradley Manning is facing. The length of pre-trial detention would not be my biggest concern. No, wait, I’ll take Manning’s pre-trial conditions and the typical 5-30 day Rikers Island pre-trial detention. Made up, though it may be.
Matt
Of course their criticisms turned out to be correct as we now see that even the Navy admits he was being mistreated.
I’m not saying its unreasonable to question sourcing, its a perfectly reasonable and in fact journalistically admirable thing to do, but the fact that they were 100% right should give us some pause for reflection. So lets consider a few things:
1. I think you are vastly overstating the extent to which there were conflicting reports. There were reports coming from critics with details of his conditions and then there were reports based entirely on government sources with virtually no detail beyond saying, “he’s being treated fine.” One of the biggest reasons for believing that his conditions were as bad as reported was the fact that the government was obstructing all attempts by journalists, the UN, etc, to answer any questions and their complete evasiveness when asked directly. They were the actions of someone to hide and Hamsher and particularly Greenwald all along were saying, “if we’re wrong, then open up and show us.” As it turned out they were completely right.
2. I have no idea what you, personally, would have done had this scenario unfolded under Bush, perhaps you would’ve said, “lets wait for the complete story to come out,” as well. But during the Bush years there were many times when liberals jumped on Bush over things with far less sourcing and evidence than we had 4-5 months ago in the Manning case.
3. As so many others have pointed out, there is ample evidence that some liberals were doing more than just saying, “lets wait for the full story.” Many were saying, “this story is bullshit,” “it doesn’t matter,” “he deserves what he gets,” etc. You didn’t say any of those things, nor did Cole say that you did, but there’s literally no argument to be made that others weren’t saying that.
4. Finally, all of the above is besides the point. We now know for a fact that Manning was being mistreated (which is not to suggest that he no longer is.) The reports to that effect were correct. Folks like Hamsher and Greenwald were absolutely critical in shining light on that. But beyond them, it begs the question why aren’t we hearing more outrage from liberals who you suggest were not dismissing it, but rather were just waiting for the full story. The full story is out now and the questions have been answered conclusively. Bradley Manning was being detained in inhumane conditions, they were doing it explicitly to punish him, to break him, and quite likely to send a chilling message to would be whistleblowers. As was the case with Abu Ghraib, whether or not they directly ordered it, the highest level of military leadership, most importantly the Commander-in-Chief, are the ones most responsible. So my question for those liberals who were waiting for the complete story to emerge is: where is the outrage now that it has emerged? Our president allowed someone to be tortured (and yes the conditions he was held in were torture by any civilized definition) to happen on his watch. Folks who were angry about that under Bush ought to be just as angry about that under Obama. Its one thing to urge patience for the full story, but now that we have it and see that Obama’s military has tortured a person it is undeniably hypocritical to have skewered Bush for it and not hold Obama to that standard.
warg2_2
I’ll take a punch in the face, a near-miss prison rape, and a minor stoning. Can I have a punitive amputation too? Is that asking too much?
Shade Tail
Lawnguylander:
Gotta agree with kalyarn here. This looked far more like your own implication than anything kalyarn wrote.
Lawnguylander
@warg2_2
I’m offering you a boot in the teeth and a dagger up the strap.
burnspbesq
@Stillwater:
Fail. JAG officers don’t try their cases in the media. You have no fucking clue what they do or don’t have on Manning.
Neither do I.
The difference between you and me is that I’m not compulsive about making shit up.
joes527
Matt
Gotta look forward, not back.
Sometimes, I think, just keep walking…. Some of life just has to be mysterious.
LT
“…but liberals who would have blown a gasket if this happened during the Bush years decided it was more important that Jane Hamsher is an asshole and Glenn Greenwald is long-winded than to admit what was going on”
Good Christ, John Cole. Is this a joke? I mean, I truly admire what you do here, and will continue to read you for a long time to come, I’m sure of that. And it was Hamsher’s calling you “homophobic” who put her over the edge for me. I just want that to be clear – but YOU have been guilty of what you just condemned I don’t know how many fucking times. And ABL – holy shit – it’s her life’s fucking mission to go after Hamsher! And she’s CONSTANTLY digging at Manning on Twitter, along with her buddy Shoq.
Good god. I mean – thank for writing what I quoted, but holy hell.
LT
“My favourite line was the one that said you weren’t allowed to be mad about Manning’s treatment unless you were a bona fide prison reform activist….”
A-fucking-me. What desperate horseshit.
Shade Tail
Uh, LT, I’m rather hard-pressed to think of a time when Mr. Cole criticized Hamsher, or anyone else for that matter, to deflect fair criticism of Obama. I mean, sure he’s been extremely critical (to say the least) of Hamsher many times, but I’ve not seen him use that as some thinly veiled excuse to defend Obama.
Joe
ABL is, as always, full of fucking shit. The woman is a habitual liar, but it’s difficult to say whether or not she’s lying here or she’s just illiterate.
This is from the very first paragraph of the very first article that GG published about Bradley Manning’s inhumane conditions (i.e. ongoing torture):
“Interviews with several people directly familiar with the conditions of Manning’s detention, ultimately including a Quantico brig official (Lt. Brian Villiard) who confirmed much of what they conveyed, establishes that the accused leaker is subjected to detention conditions likely to create long-term psychological injuries.”
ABL says that GG sourced all his claims to Manning’s attorney and David House.
Hey ABL! Hey you liar and/or illiterate bag of shit. Did you forget about the brig official confirming what several sources familiar with his conditions told GG in interviews?
God you are so fucking terrible.
Cacti
Free Mumia, Cole.
Jim
I remember similar “sourcing” concerns from “liberals” with every prisoner maltreatment/torture story that came out during the Bush years. No, really. People around here defended every Yoo-Cheney testicle-crushing memo until all sources were “thoroughly vetted.”
shano
Actually, if you followed David House you would know exactly how Bradley Manning was being treated. This was the man who is allowed to see Bradley, (and it is interesting, his father was a law enforcement officer during the Civil rights era and handled the bombing of the church that killed those little girls).
It was confirmed by Mannings lawyer, who wrote up a complaint and sued the brig to end the suicide watches, asking for exercise, clothes, reading material, better conditions, etc. Sheesh.
But I do think Glen Greenwald has been very good on this story overall.
shano
It pissed me off when JP Crowley had to resign, but I think it made Obama look at the reality of the treatment of Manning ….along with a curious video I saw of some people singing a song about Manning right in front of Obama at a private fund raising dinner and then leaving the room.
Very uncomfortable moment for Obama, but Manning was moved to Kansas within a week or so of this event.
shano
Prison blocks are built for different things.
Manning holds the record of any inmate at this particular facility for time in solitary confinement. Three months used to be the maximum time, Manning was held in this particular facility for over 6 months.
Stillwater
@burnspbesq: You have no fucking clue what they do or don’t have on Manning.
Neither do I.
The difference between you and me is that I’m not compulsive about making shit up.
The difference between you and me is that one of us is willing to admit that if the government had evidence sufficient to shut down Wikileaks and charge Assange, it would’ve already done it. The other clings to pipe dreams of retribution against Assange by refusing to admit the obvious: the government has no conspiracy case linking him and Manning directly.
miketherevelator
what a zoo. Exceptional post by Cole. I totally agree with him, Matt and a few others. Every time I’ve come here (which I’ll admit isn’t that often because of what I’m about to say, but everything eventually turns into a Hamsher-FDL-Greenwald bash party. Not properly sourced? Accusations of political “perversion”? It’s Obama’s word against theirs– POTUS wouldn’t lie to us — I voted for the man. Always an excuse. When are liberals going to realize Obama is not a liberal, not a Democrat, thinks he’s above the rule of law and in short, is W except better looking and more articulate. I give him an A for oratory, too bad the A+ in lying makes it a useless talent.
Why would anybody belive a man who is repsonsible for continuing, expanding or starting six wars in 30 months in office, caved on HCR, caved on Wall Street, caved on tax cuts, claims he possesses the right to kill US citizens, claims acquittal-detention powers, claims ‘state secrets’ trump a fair hearing in a court of law, claims to the world Manning is guilty before a date to empanel a jury has even been selected, puts SS and medicare on the table in a budget fight, uses the R word entitlements for a pension plan paid for by workers during their entire working life and seems to have the same opinon of life overseas as W did, a lover of drone bombing, black op missions and giving the CIA and Ze a free hand in doing what’s best for the US — over people like Hamsher,
Greenwald, Scahill, Goodman, Chris Floyd and others who’ve been trying to tell us for 2 years what this administration is all about.
I voted for the guy too, but being from Chicago as soon as I heard Rahm and rendition, I knew the campaign was a fantasy, but like Bush, never dreamed it was going to sink this low.
It’s not just here, I see it everywhere, either that D mesmerizes folks, they’re so ingrained to fear the Republicans a Democrat could literally call for a preemptive nuke attack on any country he sufficiently demonized, or they just can’t let go of the dream. But there really is a huge class of people — I know, in my circle of friends half no longer speak to me, some will as long as we discuss baseball or Republican evil, a couple have muttered maybe I was right after all — who gave Bush hell for everything (and he deserved 90% of it) but throw up more excuses for Obama than Cub management has for Zambrano.
Assasnge, Manning, wikileaks, anonymous are the good guys in as much as there good guys these days. Obama and his buds on Wall Street, Big Business, the MIC and the lamestream media do not give a damn about you, me, your kids, your dog, your rights or yout pension. A man who totally ignores the rule of law except as it concerns Muslim detainees or ‘us’ – dissenters, pot smokers, whistle blowers, anti-empire nutjobs, protestors, those of us who believe the ‘war on terror’ is a con job etc.
Were it not for people like Hamsher, Greenwald, Scahill, Floyd, Democracy Now — Obama and his imperial presidency would be sitting pretty. You don’t have to like any of them, but you should at least respect the work they’re doing just like we should respect Assasnge, Manning and anybody else who make the decision to stand up to the Mafia in Washington DC.
If you think Mr. Cole got in your face, this is Chris Floyd: “Yet every day, at every turn, we are told by earnest progressives that we must support the leader of this system, a man who has entrenched and exacerbated its bloodiest and most brutal currents in almost every way. We must support, encourage, and enable assassination, slaughter, corruption and mass murder; we must, be prepared to tear small children into bloody pieces, day after day, for no other discernible reason than to preserve the unlawful, immoral domination of a bloodthirsty militarist elite. That’s what it means to be a “progressive” today…Again, I say what I have said here over and over (and will keep on saying): This is what you are supporting, enabling and continuing when you support the Obama Administration. Whether that support is wholehearted — if you, like Kevin Drum, proudly shut down you own brain and defer supinely to Obama’s superior wisdom — or whether it is reluctant, defensive, “to keep the other guys out” because you desperately hope the Democrats might possibly be marginally better, the results are still the same: murder, brutality, violence, corruption, chaos and suffering.
If that’s what you want to support — if you feel for whatever reason that this is the best, most honorable, moral, productive course to take — then that’s your right, of course. But be aware of what that choice really means — in actual lives of real human beings, right now, at this minute, and far into the future. Don’t pretend that you don’t know; don’t pretend that you aren’t saying, “I will pull the trigger and kill this little child to make the world a better place.”
LT
Shade Tail, I don’t’ think he does it intentionally, but I think Cole pretty much admitted to doing it anyway in the DDay post a while back. (And yes, I think DDay in that case being kicked because of his FDL-Hamher association.)
LT
Shade: And I’m also talking about just going after Hamsher whoever at all. Who fucking cares what she says? ABL runs like a kid to mom – “Hamsher called liberals “motherfucker!” what a fucking waste of time. And, in my opinion, John goes there too much.
Posts like this one (just a quick search; there are still better of course) are what makes BJ so great (and the dog stuff is just so damn good, too): https://balloon-juice.com/2011/04/09/id-add-a-couple-things/