Let It Burn

Meanwhile, in Minnesota:

With no sign of a budget deal in sight, Minnesota awoke on Saturday to Day 2 of a state government shutdown, and, if anything, more confusion — not moreclarity — about how one actually carries out this sort of thing.

Consider these nuanced rules: the state’s Department of Revenue says it still expects people to pay their taxes, but it will not be sending out refunds. Residents may renew their driver’s licenses in certain locations, but no actual driver’s exams will be offered. The Minnesota Zoo is closed to visitors, but a “Music in the Zoo” concert series, including a performance on Saturday evening by The Monkees, of 1960s fame, was to proceed (though no non-human animals were to be on display).

Any questions?

If so, you may not wish to call the state in search of clarity. Some closed Minnesota departments are, of course, not there to answer the phones. Or their email. Or to update their Websites; many departments, in fact, redirected Web visitors to BeReadyMn.com for a rundown of the state’s contingency plans and a sense of which services, deemed critical, have gone right on.

And so, as Minnesota’s politicians, whose clash over how to fix the state’s deficit led to a shutdown that began Friday, took what some described as a cooling-off period with no further negotiations this weekend, Minnesotans were left to navigate what it really meant to close a state — a scenario rarely undertaken in the nation and, it seemed by Saturday, one with few sure, simple rules.

I’m increasingly of the opinion that we need to give the wingnuts what they want. Shut it all down. No police. No firemen. No National Guard. Just let the god damned state burn. I am so fed up with these fanatics and lunatics, I just want them to get a good solid dose of what they really want. I’m tired of protecting them from themselves. And I’m tired of the underclass of very poor wingnuts who make no money, rely on the state and the feds, but vote for these nutjobs because the baby jeebus tells them to. Maybe a couple months without the services they need to survive will knock some sense into them.






112 replies
  1. 1
    BGinCHI says:

    Car is gassed up and ready to head north and begin looting MN. Probably get a new bigger flatscreen TV and some wine if I can find a good store with large plate-glass windows.

    Anybody want anything while I’m up there?

  2. 2
    aimai says:

    From your mouth to the voter’s ears.

    But heres the thing–I don’t watch any TV or listen to any radio in the summer (since I’m not driving my kids anywhere)–are the Democrats bothering to make the lesson clear to voters in other states? I get messages from the Dems trying to reelect Obama but I don’t see the urgency I’d like to see getting out the vote to get a clean sweep of state houses, congressional seats, and the senate. Basically the Republicans are showing us what their America looks like: no public school, no public good, no police, no firefighters, no good jobs, no swimming pools, no parks, etc…etc…etc… Why aren’t the dems running ads every day with “Closed–to the public *and* closed for business” stamped on pictures of every national monument, hospital, and school? This is a golden opportunity to make the case that we need to kick the republicans out at every level from dog catcher on up. But I’m not seeing it yet.

    aimai

  3. 3
    Alex S. says:

    Grow your own food, buy a cow.

  4. 4
    eemom says:

    Maybe a couple months without the services they need to survive will knock some sense into them.

    what about the nonsurvivors that will include children, old people, sick people, and other dirt-poor non-wingnuts who did nothing to make this happen? Collateral damage?

  5. 5
    Corner Stone says:

    Can’t really use an ice scraper, but thanks.
    I say we let them secede and just be fucking done with it! Fucking moochers!

  6. 6
    Hungry Joe says:

    I sometimes feel that way, too, and then I remember that I’d probably be okay if a massive shutdown only lasted a short time, while people in desperate need of services and paychecks — many of whom did NOT vote for nutjobs — would be no-joke suffering. Still, those wingers getting what they asked for … “Isn’t it pretty to think so?”

  7. 7
    BGinCHI says:

    aimai, one reason that’s week here in IL is that the state Dem party is pathetic. They don’t work hard, aren’t very accountable to voters or their constituencies, and would be in real danger if the GOP here wasn’t so awfully stupid.

    DNC should be pushing this in the states.

  8. 8

    I’m tired of protecting them from themselves.

    Oh, baby. I hear you. I totally hear you. But in the factually-challenged, cult-like world of the wingnut, there’s all the blame in the world to be passed around. It’s the same 30% who have been against progress for the past 100 years, funded by the same 1% of the industrialist class who have always had all the money.

    So if we give them enough rope to hang themselves with, will they really hang? Hell, no! They’ll craft a new bumper sticker slogan blaming some liberal, hell let’s just blame Clinton all over again, he’s a convenient target! They’ll sink more money into a Jerome Corsi book or Sarah Palin hagiography or some other propaganda piece and we’ll get the same tired message repeated over and over and over again. The reason the glorious wingnut plan didn’t work is because … fill in the blank with convenient liberal target.

    The problem is not that 30% of the public believe bullshit and fairy tales about free markets and taxes “killing jobs” and government being evil. The problem is that for some reason these ideas have actually gained traction with those in power, that these crackpot notions about taxes and budgets and spending and government serving no purpose whatsoever have transformed into actual policy.

    I don’t know what to do about that.

  9. 9
    eemom says:

    @ Hungry Joe

    Still, those wingers getting what they asked for … “Isn’t it pretty to think so?”

    perfect. Thank you.

  10. 10
    Cain says:

    @aimai

    good jobs, no swimming pools, no parks, etc…etc…etc… Why aren’t the dems running ads every day with “Closed—to the public and closed for business” stamped on pictures of every national monument, hospital, and school? This is a golden opportunity to make the case that we need to kick the republicans out at every level from dog catcher on up. But I’m not seeing it yet.

    You’re not the only one wondering..
    Josh Marshall has an excellent blog post regarding the whole political picture and the disconnect with what Democrats should be doing.

    I don’t understand why Democrats are not doing anything. The only thing we can do is start calling local parties and try to help messaging. See, the fact that we don’t do anything while everything burns is really puzzling.

  11. 11
    Yutsano says:

    You know, if that damn hippie Dayton would just bend to the will of the legislature and pass their every whim without question there wouldn’t have been a shutdown, now would there?

    /wingnut

  12. 12
    lojasmo says:

    Well, Mrs. Lojasmo is a political organizer for a union. Even though the democrats are not using the bully pulpit to drive home the instrangisance (sp?) of the state republican leadership, the unions are going into full on campaign mode on Monday.

    Going to be hell to pay.

  13. 13
    Maude says:

    aimai
    got to nj.com and read what Dem Sweeney had to say about the NJ budget.
    He used pungent language that isn’t usually heard.
    I haven’t seen any Republican saying he was out of line.

  14. 14
    MattR says:

    Part of me feels the same way about the Republicans at a national level. Give em ten years to implement their policies with no Democratic pushback and watch the country crumble. Granted it would be quite painful for all involved (including myself), but if it ended up teaching/convincing the country that the Republicans have no clue how to actually govern and it ended the trickle down debate once and for all, it might actually be worth it. Of course, in reality somehow the Democrats (or immigrants or some other boogeyman) will end up being blamed and the Republicans will come off as innocent bystanders in it all.

  15. 15
    fuckwit says:

    Look, the last time there was a government shutdown, the pukes who perpetrated it got removed from orefice. Like, Newt Gingrich.

    That said, the pukes didn’t go away or get any less virulent. They’re still around, and Grover Norquist is still urging them towards apocalypse.

    So, I dunno.

  16. 16
    Corner Stone says:

    got to nj.com and read what Dem Sweeney had to say about the NJ budget.
    He used pungent language that isn’t usually heard.

    Sweeney is fucked. Democrats hate him for helping Christie fuck over pensions and unions, and now Republicans are targeting him saying this beef is just rhetoric to get a verbal war going ahead of the next election.
    He’s fucked, IMO.

  17. 17
    jwb says:

    @aimai: As far as I can tell, the answer is no, the Dems seem to be their usual clueless selves. I don’t know whether that’s because they can’t get on the airwaves, don’t have the money, or haven’t been able to settle on a message. I did receive numerous invitations to donate to Obama and have my name entered in the stupid have dinner with Barack and Joe contest. Whatever is going on with the Dems, it’s depressing.

  18. 18
    Corner Stone says:

    I don’t understand why Democrats are not doing anything. The only thing we can do is start calling local parties and try to help messaging. See, the fact that we don’t do anything while everything burns is really puzzling.

    Hmmmm, isn’t it though?

  19. 19
    WereBear says:

    The stupid, it is always with us.

  20. 20
    jwb says:

    Corner Stone: Yes, he’s truly fucked. And deservedly so.

  21. 21
    rikyrah says:

    And I’m tired of the underclass of very poor wingnuts who make no money, rely on the state and the feds, but vote for these nutjobs because the baby jeebus tells them to

    best line ever.

    LOL

  22. 22
    Mark S. says:

    I hope the people who feed the zoo animals are considered essential, but teatard scholars have probably determined that public zoos are unconstitutional.

  23. 23

    Well, read Gov. Deval Patrick’s piece in Thursday’s Boston Globe. He’s pretty harsh.

    It is now clear that the Republican strategy is to drive America to the brink of fiscal ruin and then argue that the only way out is to cut spending for the powerless. Taxes — a dirty word thanks to Norquist’s “no new taxes” gimmick — are made to seem beyond the pale, even as the burden of paying for our society shifts disproportionately to the middle class and working poor. It is the height of fiscal folly. It is also not who we are as a country.
    __
    […]
    __
    If the deficit is reduced by spending cuts alone and there is no deal to raise the debt ceiling, here’s a sampling of what happens: We stop paying our soldiers or supporting our veterans. We stop feeding the neediest children and families. We stop providing nursing-home care to seniors. We stop inoculating schoolchildren. We stop helping young people go to college. The unemployed are on their own. Roads and bridges continue to crumble. And we jeopardize the creditworthiness of our economy at one of the most fragile moments in history. All to protect the marginal benefits of the most fortunate and the political purity of the radical right.

  24. 24
    cleek says:

    unless the voters blame the GOP for the consequences, letting it burn accomplishes nothing positive.

  25. 25
    General Stuck says:

    I am so fed up with these fanatics and lunatics,

    Just the beginning. They are playing footsie in MN and a few other states with fresh elected fanatics and lunatics. But are they really that when most of them campaigned the same way? What they have done is launch a civil war, that right now can be waged lawfully, or close to lawfully. MN amounts to probing the wire of progressive America, checking out the weak spots, and gaging resistance. Here is hoping MN and the others follow WI, where the wingnuts got more than they bargained for with their assault on organized labor in that state.

    The thing about fanatics and lunatics, they usually don’t sit around doing nothing. They actually care that the rest of the country isn’t as crazy as they are inside, and do stuff, like go vote to change that. Where as non crazy folks are just fine with telling themselves things like, “they’re all the same, political parties and their politicians”, or “this is America, and there is a limit to how bad things can get”, or, ‘fuck it, I got mine” and a laundry list of excuses to stay fat and stupid, and let the animated crazies win elections where less than half the electorate comes out to vote.

    The tea tards and wingnuts will drink their ever loving milkshakes and skull fuck their kittens, sooner or later, when it’s they’re turn, if they don’t get a clue and go vote, at least. That is how moderates beat Paul, and his army of morans, simply get off the couch, go down to wherever, and punch, circle, X, fill, in the blank spaces with someone who isn’t a fanatic, or lunatic, if that choice is apparent, one Tuesday every two years. It’s the only way to be sure.

  26. 26
    Arrik says:

    The problem, John, is that the 27%ers are willing to withstand a lot, if they can be sure that what they are supporting is pissing off liberals. That really is the principal motivator. And as was pointed out above, to the extent that they do suffer they will find a way to shift the blame from themselves and the Republicans that they supported to everyone else.

  27. 27
    Mnemosyne says:

    The more this goes on, the more similar I think it is to the anti-vaccine crusade that’s (mostly) on the left. Local and state government usually works pretty well, whining about the DMV aside, to the point where it’s actually invisible to most people. They literally don’t realize how much the government is doing for them every day. Same thing with the anti-vaxers who don’t realize that we don’t have deadly measles epidemics because of widespread vaccinations. Ordinary people hear it and think, “Hmm, sounds like there may be something to this.”

    I’d like to think that a few days without government services would wake most people up, but it seems to be going in a direction of, “It’s the government’s fault we don’t have government services, so we need less government!” And I just don’t know how to fight that kind of insanely circular thinking.

  28. 28
    Comrade Luke says:

    @aimai

    They’re not doing much at all. The thing is, I don’t think they see it as an issue. They don’t have to have any story other than “we’re not them” in their eyes; they think that running just to the left of the right will win, and winning is all that matters. Actual governing is secondary, and when you look at things just below the surface you see that both sides are funded by largely the same people anyway.

    “Funny” story this weekend here in Washington State. Due to revenue shortfalls, parks are no longer free to the public. You now have to buy a “Discover Pass”, at a rate of either $10 per day or $30 for the season. Just went into effect this weekend, and people are pretty pissed. Too bad they weren’t paying attention when Tim Eyman was gutting the state of revenues via his “citizen’s initiatives”, all of which were funded by the right.

  29. 29
    jwb says:

    @Mnemosyne: There are a number of ways of breaking the circular thinking, but all the ones I can think of are—at least at this point—far worse than the disease.

  30. 30
    Linnaeus says:

    Sounds like “heightening the contradictions”. What are you, some kind of Leninist? Or even worse, a “firebagger”?

  31. 31
    Comrade Luke says:

    I don’t see how letting the other side win is going to prove anything btw. We’re talking about a group that believes in the Rapture. It doesn’t matter how destitute they get, they’re not taking it with them anyway. If all they had left were the clothes on their backs they’d just stand there, mouths agape, staring at the sky, waiting to be delivered.

    And the rest of them would be perfectly happy if we ended up like Somalia, since they’re the ones who would be supplying us with the materiel to destroy ourselves. Profit!

  32. 32
    KCinDC says:

    MattR, do you see any evidence—any evidence at all—that many people who voted for Bush (excepting our host) learned why that was a bad idea and still believe it? Americans have insanely short memories. Besides, as others have said, when things go to hell the wingnuts will have plenty of stories about how it’s all the fault of liberals, Mexicans, gays, union members, government workers, and Muslims. Remember, the economic collapse was caused by crafty but lazy black people tricking innocent bankers into giving them loans they couldn’t pay off.

  33. 33
    jwb says:

    @Comrade Luke: See, you should be working on channeling their anger toward changing things, not throwing it back in their face as some sort of moral punishment.

  34. 34
    Montysano says:

    @ cain #10

    I don’t understand why Democrats are not doing anything.

    Steady, lad. This is not the time to be shrill. Nuance and bipartisanship are what’s called for.

  35. 35
    Comrade Luke says:

    What exactly am I throwing back in their face? I’m just pointing out that they’re wacko, and there is no “end”.

    You’re making them the victim, just like Taibbi said about how they react when people make fun of Bachmann.

    On second reading, I think you might be being sarcastic, so I’m going to stop here just in case. If so, no worries :)

  36. 36
    Jason in the peg says:

    @ Mark S.

    You know about shooting the hippo?

    A zoo in New Zealand shot their hippo due to public funding cut backs.

    This would have been early 90’s but after a tiny little wee bit of research I can’t tell if it really happened or not.

  37. 37
    General Stuck says:

    Sometimes out of exasperation, I say stuff like “let it burn” just as a emo release valve when the bullshit piles up faster than I can internalize it in a defused state. It is not zero sum, and letting the wingnuts win even a little usually means somebody gets hurt, mostly on the lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder. Democrats/liberals can’t let that happen purposely, even once, and still call themselves dems or libs. It is who we are to fight for those people, always, regardless of the seeming futility of it all.

  38. 38

    All of this is because grover fucking norquist isnt elected to a goddamned thing. There is no way to remove that traitor from office.

  39. 39
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .
    @4 eelmom

    what about the nonsurvivors that will include children, old people, sick people, and other dirt-poor non-wingnuts who did nothing to make this happen? Collateral damage?

    What if every collateral damage non-survivor this time saves nine as a result later? Is that the cost of freedom for this greatest of all nations in all the universe for all time forever? Also too, freedom isn’t free.
    .
    .

  40. 40
    Cermet says:

    Launched a civil? What century did you grow up in? Starting after 1865, the bastards continued the civil war and destroyed all black voting rights and quickly converted them into second-class citizens and with the help of the State run prison system then, real slavery again! (Sound familiar?)

    Whites in the North knew full well and ignored or even aided them! The Union lost that war and after a short respite in the 1960’s, ever since raygun, it has been full blown all out war on the middle class but this time, the very same people – the elite – that started the first civil war, have been waging using all possible weapons. Yet again, many poor whites are aiding and abetting those ass wipes help steal everything.

    The final civil war has begun and we are fast losing – both thugs and demorats are the shock troops; the thugs are worse but like Union people of the North after the first civil war, money matters more than people’s rights and they sell out.

    Now that peak oil is here (look at world production the last SIX years of level production!) and all resources are climbing in cost – rapidly, jobs are gone for good and the crabs care only to pull each other down as the elite gain more and more and laugh – AGW is just icing for them as billions fall into misery.

  41. 41
    pookapooka says:

    What’s all this about the befuddlement of the Dems seemingly cluelessness? Seems easy to me: who finances their candidacies? Isn’t the “presidential” behavior of one B. Obama enough to shout this out clear as a doomsday bell?

  42. 42
    General Stuck says:

    Cermet

    Your glistening genius lights the way for us all.

  43. 43
    Zandar says:

    As long as the voters in Minnesota think Obama’s thugs roaming the 494/694 took away their government whatever, then this can continue indefinitely as far as the Tea Party is concerned.

  44. 44
    Montysano says:

    @ arguingwithsignposts

    All of this is because grover fucking norquist isnt elected to a goddamned thing.

    The Norquist quote that John posted yesterday sticks in my mind:

    “We will make it so that a Democrat cannot govern as a Democrat.”

    Shorter Norquist: “Fuck democracy”. From the comments on that post, I thought this was excellent:

    In a nutshell, the American voters want to live in a world where electing Republicans leads to Democratic outcomes.

  45. 45
    cinesimon says:

    If this happened in western Europe, the politicians responsible for the shut down would be charged with lower level homicide for those deaths that can be directly attributed to this disgusting display of power, malice, greed and inhumanity on the part of the republican legislature and their backers.
    Unfortunately, with it’s unique brand of ‘individualism’, meaning corporations are individuals and nobody can ever be held accountable for the actions of that ‘individual’; where justices can exclude themselves from ethics rules and are cheered for it, where police can get away with serial murder and be given medals for their crimes, in a country where locking people up has become big business that politicians see fit to actually protect such business and not the citizens routinely locked up for minor issues; in a country where denial of basic science is now politically correct for half the country and must be a pledge of right wing politicians…
    … Who will really be surprised that when the consequences of this disgusting shut-down are tallied – illness, starvation, bankruptcy, the deaths of people who didn’t need to die, theft, fraud, unseen to emergencies across the board, billions of dollars in unnecessary costs to the state upon start up – who will be surprised this is all sold as – and willingly gulped up without question – by the right wing constituency as the ‘price of freedom'(which of course they don’t pay for) or some such Fox-advocated bumper sticker explanation.
    This poisonous bunch claiming to be the only TRUE patriots, the only REAL Americans, cannot claim to be conservative. Their slash and burn policies are reminiscent of a dictatorship having multiple tantrums, the victims being minorities, the elderly, the poor, the sick and the unemployed.
    The Democrats and independents need once and for all to stand up to these people, before they destroy America – for that is what they have shown themselves to be willing to do, with a smile, if they don’t get their way. They are destroying us.
    I for one think Obama’s attempts at working with these criminals, grifters and sociopaths has been admirable, and a classic sign of the real change he brought to D.C.
    And he has shown anyone paying attention that the right have no intention of allowing for the fact that they do not own America outright, that we are a nation of many differing cultures, values and ideologies, and America at it’s best is America working together and negotiating in good faith. The right cannot, and will not – do this. Their base has made that perfectly clear. Like spoiled little children brought up by Nazi Germany’s Joy Division, they want everything their way, or they will destroy America. They’ve made that perfectly clear. They see themselves, just as the Taliban do, as having a mandate from god to rule America – they are, according to their own political speeches, the “Head Of The Serpent”(from a Josef Bachman speech).
    They will never understand that the reality is, they cannot have a theocracy based on their vicious and bizarre combination of Ayn Rand and cherry-picked old and new testament. America is not theirs: they share it with all of us. We and Obama have made ample concessions to their ideology – they have not made any to us. But they will never accept such a basic, obvious reality.
    They have to be stopped.
    They have declared war, it’s time for us to recognize that they are more an existential threat than any enemy America has seen before. Including the Soviet Union.

  46. 46
    gbear says:

    I’m a MN state employee and I DO NOT WANT what these asshole republicans are asking for. I’m toast if this lasts more than 2 weeks.

  47. 47
    Jinx says:

    They have been working at this a long time. They are relentless. They didn’t aim to the top. They started small-school boards, small mayor-ships. They have fused the religious right with the tea party anti tax and anti government agenda. The religious wing all belong to large churches and they front for a political group. It is woven into the teachings. Trust me, I have a sister-in-law who has evolved and she parrots every one of the talking points. They have been relentless and methodical in building the equivalent of an army who will not waver. Not compromising is a core principle. Frankly, it feels like we are heading to a civil war.
    The rest of us are just waking up. This past election was the real eye opener when we watched the Minnesota legislature, Michigan, Wisconsin, Florida and Ohio go crazy. Of course they had the help of ALEC and the Koch brothers. The legislation and the agenda looked the same in all of the states. Destroy unions and their power, privatize schools and jails, demonize the social infrastructure, demonize the browns and Muslims and give away the store to business-hell some of those states are paying them to come just like Perry does in Texas. In the mean time make war on women’s reproduction rights and health care. The model-they all want to be Texas. But it’s not just the goals;it’s the venom and viciousness that they have used in attaining the goals even in the face of public protest and revulsion. It was as if they stealthy took over and then just blew up the place.

  48. 48
    aisce says:

    @ aimai

    democrats would probably say they’re too busy negotiating the federal budget issues at the moment, and besides, you don’t start campaigning in the summer the year before the election.

    which is probably true. at least a little. it’s also true that democrats don’t fight wars on multiple fronts for shit. whereas, the republicans have become masters of this maneuver. instead, democrats only seem capable of organizing for roughly 8-12 months, once every four years. anything in between then is just too hard.

    it’s scary to think what would have happened if al franken had ended up losing to norm coleman. because if not for the once-in-a-lifetime numerical opportunity in the senate that forced democrats into action whether they really wanted to or not, i think we’d be giving the uk a run for their money in the “completely backwards government for no reason” government department.

  49. 49
    Gustopher says:

    On a federal level, I really wish Obama would start shutting down “non-essential” government agencies and services, to stretch the deficit limit doomsday out slightly.

    A fourth of July with no national parks, the drug war on furlough, deferring payments to military contractors, etc. One a day, either something visible or something that infuriates the Republicans. Overtime for the IRS auditors that will pay for themselves. INS furlough.

    Shoot the hostages, one by one.

  50. 50
    Mnemosyne says:

    All of this is because grover fucking norquist isnt elected to a goddamned thing. There is no way to remove that traitor from office.

    When people wonder why the left keeps failing at politics, it’s because we don’t have a Grover Norquist who can enforce fealty on elected officials without himself being in office. We have media figures like Michael Moore on the left, but they don’t (and can’t) serve the same function that a strategist like Norquist can.

  51. 51
    General Stuck says:

    Wingnuts build impressive lies and equally impressive is their mind numbing and relentless repetition of those lies. Don’t confuse that with “messaging”. It is not that. It is simply being an organized and energetic liar, which the teevee cameras love, cause it usually creates drama. When a hapless liberal shows up to counter the fascinating lie with the drab dreary facts and truth which actually is “messaging”, the difference in reactions to the creative lie as compared with the fixed nature of truth, can be to misidentify what dems are doing and should do.

    It is simply an act of faith, that the consumers of political speech will somehow someday put more value on dull facts, than on the sensation that crafted lies can bring. I don’t want dems and liberals to parrot the wingnut style of campaigning, which all of it is these days, campaigning. Dems aren’t perfect, and it wouldn’t be a bad idea that they streamline the facts into snappy soundbites, but I don’t profess to have a clue what that would be.

    Once again. The problem is not primarily dem messaging, nor even the dubious media. IMO. The problem lies within the voting citizenry in this country, and a high level of shallow complacency to selfish mendacity to outright racial tribalism. The only antidote for this condition is experiencing pain and with it the gain of useful knowledge. This is only my opinion, and subject to being completely wrong.

  52. 52
    pluege says:

    I agree. Shut the whole damn thing down. Even if the slope brow, slack jaw, knuckle dragging tea-slobs are too damn stoopid to get it, maybe the almighty center will wake up out of their torpor and pay the F*CK! attention to what they’re condoning with their inaction and their ‘too damn busy to participate’ crap.

  53. 53
    Caz says:

    It would really bother you if this state shutdown didn’t have a catastrophic effect. It might show that we can all survive without an all-seeing, all-powerful state to watch over us.

    Whose fault is it though really? You think those who have spent the state into oblivion might be to blame? They’ve spent so much money they don’t have that they’ve had to shut the whole operation down. What can be done about it?? I suppose your answer involves more spending by the govt on one thing or another.

  54. 54

    Democrats should be much more aggressive in the debt ceiling debate.

    The Democrats should introduce legislation that says the United States will not pay the full face value on debt incurred during the Bush administration.

    Those notes will be reduced in value. If 65% of that debt was incurred paying for tax cuts and the Iraq War then the United States will pay 35 cents on the dollar.

    As long as the corporate media treats it as a reasonable position that the United States isn’t going to pay its debts, let’s game this out.

    The progressive wing of the Democratic Party should advance a plan to drastically reduce the federal debt.

    Let’s watch how the Republicans and corporate media respond.

    Do you think they will become devotees of the 14th Amendment?

  55. 55
    jfxgillis says:

    John:

    Maybe a couple months without the services they need to survive will knock some sense into them.

    You are evil.

    Amen, brother.

  56. 56
    dogwood says:

    Jinx:

    They have been working at this a long time. They are relentless. They didn’t aim to the top. They started small-school boards, small mayor-ships.

    This is the situation in a nutshell. I live in a small town. Lots of union member, Democrats all until the 1980’s. But it didn’t change overnight. They took over the school board, the city council, zoning boards etc. It took years, but a Democrat has no chance here any more. This can be turned around, but it will take the same kind of relentless discipline that Reps. employed. In means taking small victories and moving forward. It can’t be done in a couple of years from the oval office. This is a state and local thing, and even if that isn’t as glamorous as the presidency, that’s where Democrats have to begin. We got lucky in that W was such a disaster as President, but when we took over Congress and later the White House we still needed to be cognizant of our liabilities at lower levels of government. It’s not surprising that the Dems haven’t responded quickly to the Minnesota shutdown. It takes years of promoting, fundraising, and neighbor to neighbor persuasion to be ready to respond effectively and have credibility with decent people who hear a different story in their churches and coffee klatches. I think it can be done. The Republicans have their hands full with the teaparty and other fringe wingnuts who, if allowed to take over the party, will begin unravelling all that was built. There are lessons to be learned here, if we are willing to heed them..

  57. 57
    El Cid says:

    Plenty of commentary on the right about how great an opportunity this is for Americans to learn that they don’t need government and not to give into librul scaremongers about how they need the nanny state.

  58. 58
    PIGL says:

    There are two problems that must be solved, and that can not be solved in any existing society.

    1) Dynastic wealth

    2) Universal suffrage

    There exists a permanent 20-30% core of idiots who can be mobilized by dynastic wealth to create an all-but-undefeatable working electoral majority. This is because not all right wing policies are evil and insane, and under many circumstances, enough non-idiots will be persuadable to support enough of these policies to elect a semi-fascist government. Once this coalition is mobilised, I do not think it can be defeated. I would be glad to be proved wrong, but I think the evidence is heavily on my side. Hence JC’s despair, and mine as a Canadian—in Canada, such a coalition has only recently been invoked, very consciously, into existence.

    A new society may someday arise based on liberal, or progressive, or even non-batshit-insance principles. The only hope it will ever have of surviving is to prevent accumulation of dynastic wealth by confiscatory taxation, and to prevent the development of a voting block that *will* *destroy* *the* *society* by not allowing idiots to vote. Period.

    When I say “idiot”, I am using words appropriate to the present situation in North America. It is not about intelligence, nor about race, nor education, nor religious affiliation, nor job nor income. Nothing that could be mitigated by wise policy, in other words. If certain research such as Altmeyer’s is correct, as I think it is, being a idiot who can not be trusted with the franchise is a matter of an inborn disposition to worship power. Then, also, there are the 1-5% psychopaths who should be drowned at birth.

    I am quite serious…a society in which these people are allowed access to power and in which substantial wealth can be accumulated in private hands, is a society which must fall, just as ours is falling.

    I do not know what assay would be sufficient to exclude the authoritarian followers and psychopaths. But exclude them we must. We have access to data now that the framers of the enlightenment did not have. Universalist programmes like theirs must fail, not simply from the historical dynamics adduced by Marx and Engles, but because the human population contains 25-30% of individuals whose genetic predilections doom us all.

  59. 59
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    Fucking A-men John. I said the same thing in another thread here when people were talking about the hope that Obama would declare the debt ceiling unconstitutional. I think it would be smarter for him to let the Repubs have what they are aiming for. If he were to declare the debt ceiling unconstitutional, the Repubs would be saved from themselves (again) and they would be able to demonize him as making an unconstitutional power grab.

    Win-win for them (again).

    Let it burn baby. If these motherfuckers want to keep playing with matches and setting things on fire, then let it burn. Sometimes children won’t learn a damned thing until they find out for themselves that what they once thought was a brilliant idea was in reality a very stupid, painful act.

    Yes, there will be collateral damage of innocents but those same innocents will be made to suffer if the Democrats give in once again. Maybe it will be less suffering but they will still suffer needlessly. Once public workers are laid off, bills won’t get paid. Store sales will suffer, homes will go into foreclosure, the real estate market will tank further, state/federal services will not be there to be utilized, the markets will tank, bonds will lose value and the rich will even get a taste of what they have been unknowingly wishing for.

    Let the fucking thing burn. While the 27%’ers will think they are in heaven because they got their way, you can bet that even they will find that things won’t turn out to be the way they thought it would. The Repubs have a gun to the head of the hostage, let them pull the fucking trigger and get it over with already.

    IMO, the Repubs in Minnesota tried to get Dayton to extend the ‘negotiations’ for ten days because they knew that the shutdown would have an immediate effect on many people (stores who would be selling goods to campers/visitors to the state, city fireworks displays, tourism and so on) who otherwise would not be immediately affected. Dayton was smart in not extending it (IMO) exactly because of this. Bring on the pain train they are demanding, let it sink in quickly so maybe, just maybe, the people will decide that they have had enough of that shit.

    I would hope the Dems would be out there being loud and clear about how this is exactly what the Repubs want and that the pain people are feeling is just a small taste of exactly what the Repubs are proposing. That hope is small but this needs to happen to shut the crazy fuckers up for a while.

    Let. It. Burn.

  60. 60
    cinesimon says:

    Yes, poor little Caz, your cliched, narrow view of the world, filled with bumper sticker non-logic and a naive and ignorant understanding of politics, is totally the way to understanding how to solve problems.
    It’s very obvious you’re informed not by the real world, but by lobbyists and GOP PR specialists.
    It’s really rather obvious, given that we’ve seen, countless times, everything you say in almost every PR press release from the GOP and Tea Party. You may think it sounds smart, but in reality, it’s see-through nonsense we’ve seen since the 1960s. But because you don’t have facts on your side; because the right have made being anti all science a must, all you have now is snark, sarcasm, dishonesty and disinformation – and you fall for it without question.
    I suggest if you actually want to make America a better place, you might want to actually out some effort in instead of lazily relying on being told what to think. Learn some of the basics of politics and government, the history of what the Dems and Republicans have done over the years, learn what has in fact worked and what hasn’t(the Bush Tax Cuts for example, created the deficit. Even Republican economists agree with that – only extremists who don’t rely on facts, but only their extremist ideology, do not).
    Put to use your critical thinking skills – we all have them! – rather than simply believe and repeat whatever you’ve been told, without question. All you’re doing is telling us you have no intention in having an honest debate, and you have no capacity for thinking for yourself. In other words: you’re constantly confirming what most rational people think about America’s current right wing.

  61. 61
    Percysowner says:

    what about the nonsurvivors that will include children, old people, sick people, and other dirt-poor non-wingnuts who did nothing to make this happen? Collateral damage?

    From my viewpoint, these are the people the wingnuts want dead anyway. If MN bows to them, eventually there will be more non-survivors among these groups than right now. The whole point of the wingnut debate is to trash any social service that doesn’t help the rich, i.e. trash collection, police, fire department and possibly the DMV. They don’t care is children, the elderly and poor people die. They may actually prefer they die, all while spouting pro-life philosophy.

  62. 62
    Corner Stone says:

    I find it very instructive that the same people who vociferously argued here at BJ that ACA was the best possible deal to help the helpless are now making the argument that letting “it” burn to teach Republicans a lesson is the way to go.
    Guess those same helpless and needful people have diminished in some aspects, eh?

    President Obama will not allow the default, nor will he declare the debt ceiling unconstitutional. And anyone suggesting either outcome is delusional.

  63. 63
    sherifffruitfly says:

    Even after a few months, Obama will still be blackityblackityblackblack.

    Hence, white folks will still vote for republicans.

    And other white folks will cover for them, oh-so-solemnly declaring it to have nothing to do with race.

    It’s just that simple.

  64. 64
    NobodySpecial says:

    Sorry, Cole, don’t wanna hear shit about ‘let it burn’ from someone who 900 times out of the other thousand bitches at ‘firebaggers’ about shitty tactics being the reason we can’t have good Democrats.

  65. 65
    bystander says:

    Jeeze, Cole. Keep this up, or broaden it to states other than MN, and someone will think you’re either a Firebagger or some radical denizen of Glenn Greenwald’s threads. That’s where I typically see this kind of sentiment.

    @ aimai Surely, it’s occurred to you, as it has occurred to me, that the reason the Democrats don’t offer push-back to this message is because they really aren’t in disagreement with it. I wouldn’t expect an austerity pushing, private-public partnership advocating, Neo-Liberal to have much of a problem with this scenario at all.

  66. 66
    Corner Stone says:

    from someone who 900 times out of the other thousand bitches at ‘firebaggers’ about shitty tactics being the reason we can’t have good Democrats.

    It’s fucking awesome that the whole time some people did everything they could to make the case complicity would never work were castigated for some kind of children and/or “firebaggers”. The adoption of language, memes and ideas of your enemy.
    Now, at the end of the road for bipartisan compromise, pragmatic choices being made because there was “no choice”, this asshole wants to toss his godsdamned Blinky hands up in the air and say “let it burn”.

  67. 67
    bisquits says:

    I would like one of the villagers to ask these crackpots what their plan is after the government defaults. If it came to that. What would the wingnut do after default happens. What do these idiots propose. I’ve not heard any of them explain.

  68. 68
    General Stuck says:

    President Obama will not allow the default, nor will he declare the debt ceiling unconstitutional. And anyone suggesting either outcome is delusional.

    Then specifically, what will happen there yoda. Put it in writing what you are saying will happen, because the above thought is incomplete.

  69. 69
    cinesimon says:

    Corner Stone, re your 1st paragraph(post # 62): you have a very odd way of looking at things.
    The fact of the matter is, we have no choice in what is happening. We are not enjoying it, nor do we want it to happen. This situation has not been engineered to make right wingers look like the monsters they are. They’ve done that all on their own.
    The best possible outcome, on a political level, is that the population who vote see the consequences of electing extreme right wingers to power: the suffering of the poor and elderly, job losses, much less quality education, etc etc, and, of course, more and much less efficient spending. The debate between Bernie Sanders, Al Franken and Ron Paul re Seniors & hunger was a perfect example of this(CAZ might want to check that debate out)
    We don’t WANT that, for goodness sake. Only a fantasist would believe that.
    What we see, though, is a net positive over the long term – the people will finally see what it means to live under the thumb of the extreme right wing.
    It’s horrible, it’s catastrophic for some people, but it’s real, and it’s going to benefit people in the long term, because they’ll vote against it. Unless they want to continue down that path of reducing the ability of consumers to consume(and live healthily for that matter), while the rich get richer – off of consumption from outside the U.S of course.

  70. 70
    Dissatisfied Customer says:

    Goddamn, John, you hit that one right on the screws.

  71. 71
    El Cid says:

    I’m not feeling that they’re making an argument to ‘let it burn,’ just that it’s a really strong temptation to wish that.

    I say it all the time for a variety of contexts — you know, ‘maybe they ought to get what they’re asking for to see if they like it.’

  72. 72
    Corner Stone says:

    A “Grand Bargain” will be reached. It will be some mix of .90 of every dollar a cut to services and .10 of every dollar some modification of tax loopholes.
    The Republicans will explain away the tax loopholes, and the Democrats will try their best to define how the Republicans got “rolled” again.
    President Obama will never, ever allow a default on the “full faith and credit”. I have no idea how anyone familiar with Obama can argue he will.

  73. 73
    El Cid says:

    On the other hand, I felt like they (the modern conservative movement-agreeing ordinary white angry schmucks) had ‘gotten what they wished for’ under the Bush Jr. triumvirate, including a collapsed economy.

    But as I knew as it was happening, it would have been a miracle for them to retain that understanding, if ever achieved, for more than a few months before somebody pointed the laserpointer at the floor beneath them and they went skittering off after the new figures to blame.

  74. 74
    Mr Stagger Lee says:

    @Mnemosyne
    What really sealed the deal for the RW was talk radio, 20+ years of Rush, Sean, Neal, Glenn, plus Gene Burns the libertarian, and the growth of Christian radio. The rubes were spoon fed bull**** by small doses. Plus some misdirection by using the old GOD, GUNS and GAYS conditioned those pathetic little minds even more,(easier than opening a book or doing research on issues) and you have a generation of sheep getting sheared!

  75. 75
    Lydgate says:

    Yes, yes, we’re being done in by “underclass wingnuts”. Very rigorous with the data, I see.
    You do realize that those at the bottom either don’t vote or vote overwhelmingly Democratic (compared to quintiles above them) right?
    It is those in the 50-100K (two different quintiles, I know) that vote Republican in larger numbers. These groups make full use of government welfare programs too. Those in these income groups are the ones that really seem to be easily manipulated (yes, I realize most of us fit in here) if they are voting Republican (which they are in much greater numbers than the “underclass”) They seem to believe their well being is aligned with their masters.

  76. 76
    General Stuck says:

    President Obama will never, ever allow a default on the “full faith and credit”. I have no idea how anyone familiar with Obama can argue he will.

    Don’t really think many folks believe this will happen, I know I don’t. Obama has put on the table a lot of spending cuts, but none that I know of that reduces benefits to entitlements or other social programs. And the cuts he has proposed are largely targeted at waste fraud and abuse. So are you saying the “grand bargain” will occur meaning BENEFIT cuts to medicare, SS etc… I assume that is what you meant?

    I can’t think of any reason based on history, and even recent history with the temp government funding that would cause you or anyone else to think that Obama will include in any compromise or “grand bargain” as you put it, cutting the benefits of medicare, SS or any other social program.

    And given the fact that his treasury sec has already broached the 14th amendment in official congressional testimony his absolute view that the 14th amendment applies and is crystal clear that the “the debt shall not be questioned”, I don’t know where you get off with some special knowledge that Obama will sell out. Other than the other eleventythousand times you predicted that Obama would sell out, and he didn’t.

    Anywho, we will all find out the final result of The Catfood Commission the debt ceiling drama fairly soon.

  77. 77
    Mara Magee says:

    The zoo gets to stay open now.

    I think we actually missed a good opportunity to knock some sense into people – I94 (and other major roadways here) buckled from the heat this weekend, and I would of really loved to see MNDOT shrug and say “We’re closed, so sucks to be you! Enjoy inhaling all the exhaust while you sit in traffic for 20 hours on the way up to your cabin!” to everyone heading up north this weekend. Alas, they did end up fixing the roads.

    It would be really nice if some of these articles talking about the “clash” between Dayton and the MNGOP would mention that the budget bill was loaded up with right-wing ideological issues (voter id laws, abortion bans, redistricting). I’m not sure if the MNGOP thought they could get their little culture war wish list through by threatening Dayton with a shutdown, or if they threw that shit in there because they wanted a shut-down, but either way, Dayton did the right thing by telling them to piss off and I have a feeling that’s going to get lost in the whole Very Serious “this was about the budget, and both sides are to blame for the government shutdown” commentary. That crap does not belong in a budget bill, it’s not a damn game.

  78. 78
    Corner Stone says:

    President Stuck, did the Bush Tax Cuts get extended for all classes? Or did they not?
    This is the same argument, redux. SecTreas can mouth anything he cares to. If anyone here honestly believes President Obama will allow a default to occur please say so now.
    He will be “the only adult in the room” and be forced to agree to compromises because what else could he do with people ready to shoot the hostages?
    It will be spun in both directions.

  79. 79
    General Stuck says:

    I sure hope some alleged libs and dems are not arguing that Obama offering spending cuts centered around waste fraud and abuse are somehow undesirable, and somehow vital to the economy to keep, and could be described as a sellout “grand bargain” to the wingnuts, rather than direct benny cuts, regardless of what percentage of any savings that would also come from tax increases. Tell me it ain’t so Gracie.

  80. 80
    AxelFoley says:

    @MattR:

    art of me feels the same way about the Republicans at a national level. Give em ten years to implement their policies with no Democratic pushback and watch the country crumble.

    Hell, we gave them eight. That wasn’t enough for people to see how much damage they can do?

  81. 81
    Corner Stone says:

    Waste, fraud and abuse? Are you parroting rightwing talking points now too? Of course you are.
    Medicare has a significantly lower cost for overhead than any private system.

  82. 82
    AxelFoley says:

    @pookapooka:

    What’s all this about the befuddlement of the Dems seemingly cluelessness? Seems easy to me: who finances their candidacies? Isn’t the “presidential” behavior of one B. Obama enough to shout this out clear as a doomsday bell?

    I bet you don’t even know what you’re trying to say.

  83. 83
    corwin says:

    SO many of these comments presuppose state gov’t services are oxygen-or at least water in their immediacy. I think it unhlikely,but wqe’ll have to wait and see.

  84. 84
    Citizen_X says:

    SO many of these comments presuppose state gov’t services are oxygen-or at least water in their immediacy.

    You could try reading a mere six comments before yours:

    I94 (and other major roadways here) buckled from the heat this weekend, and I would of really loved to see MNDOT shrug and say “We’re closed, so sucks to be you! Enjoy inhaling all the exhaust while you sit in traffic for 20 hours on the way up to your cabin!” to everyone heading up north this weekend.

    Fix the buckled roads, close them down on a holiday weekend, or let travelers crash and die? Sounds pretty fucking immediate to me.

  85. 85
    Cain says:

    @Carl

    Democrats should be much more aggressive in the debt ceiling debate.

    perhaps you should help volunteer in your local democratic party office? The only way to effect change is to take over at the grass roots. If you care.. you’d do it. That’s what I’m planning on doing.

  86. 86
    General Stuck says:

    Waste, fraud and abuse? Are you parroting rightwing talking points now too? Of course you are.
    Medicare has a significantly lower cost for overhead than any private system.

    It is what the Obama administration is calling it, and it means cutting expenses that do not directly effect or change recipient benefits. And other common sense initiatives to reduce cost, Like proposing the government bargain with the drug companies to get cheaper drugs through volume purchases, like with VA.

    What is the fucking purpose of medicare, the ACA, etc…? It is to provide certain benefits to people who have earned them, and there really isn’t a place for costs that do not directly enhance that benefit delivery or that adversely affects those benefits in a reduced way. That comes under waste fraud and abuse, and is not a republican phrase. It is a common fucking sense phrase which doesn’t surprise me that you don’t get.

  87. 87
    NobodySpecial says:

    Stuck at 88:

    You got anything besides bafflegab? Other than your fantasy of allowing the government to bargain with the drug companies, which didn’t happen when we had the Blue Dogs running things and won’t with the Real Deal owning the House.

  88. 88
    PeakVT says:

    The first thing Obama should shut down – if it comes to that – is the air traffic control system. That will cause the Very Serious Persons to squeal in short order.

  89. 89
    Corner Stone says:

    Man, that is some of the most nonsensical spew I think I’ve ever seen you type out.

  90. 90
    General Stuck says:

    NobodySpecial

    This is part of what is in Obama’s proposal, it is not bafflegab, you moron. It is one of the things Corner Stone and idiots like you want to call “sellout” or “grand bargain” . And it is beside the point whether the wingnuts will go for something like bargaining for lower drug prices and the other cost savings that Obama is offering. With the point being THE COST CUTS OR SAVINGS ARE NOT TO REDUCE ENTITLEMENT BENEFITS EITHER DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY. If you know different, I am all ears.

    It was a deft pol move by Obama, along with offering a tax holiday for the lowest income earners. It is called politics, and Obama is good at them, and you are not.

    You nimrods can’t seem to get that simple notion through your pea brains and rely on political hysterics of folks like Krugman and other heroes to supplant thinking for yourselves. But maybe you just can’t help that.

    You all want to move the goalposts to wherever, from the original “obama to gut medicare, or SS” to ANY spending cuts as the work of the devil and a sellout by Obama to the republicans. Get a grip, and use your heads for something other than slopping out the dogma.

    Here it is in a nutshell. The wingnuts want to gut, or kill, or wound anything that resembles a social program for the poor and middle class, and especially the hated ACA and medicare as related. They could care less about the deficit. Obama will not give in to that for among other reasons, it would be political suicide if he did. And he doesn’t seem like that sort to me, and nothing in his record indicates it either. And by cobbling together a bunch of savings cuts and things like bargaining with drug companies for lower prices, Obama has met the wingers demand, and flushed out what they are really after. It is another topic whether the media will report it that way, but that is what has happened and why the wingnuts walked out of the debt ceiling negotiations.

  91. 91
    General Stuck says:

    Man, that is some of the most nonsensical spew I think I’ve ever seen you type out

    Brilliant rebuttal. It just cries out, “I’m an idiot, and can’t get up”

    EDIT – I will hand it to you CS, sticking around this blog as a regular for 3 years now for the sole purpose of bashing President Barack Obama that you hate more than the heat of a thousand suns, is some high grade psychopathy. With staying power.

  92. 92
    Brachiator says:

    And I’m tired of the underclass of very poor wingnuts who make no money, rely on the state and the feds, but vote for these nutjobs because the baby jeebus tells them to. Maybe a couple months without the services they need to survive will knock some sense into them.

    I sympathize, and recognize the rhetorical pivot, but as a practical solution this is as unrealistic as the faux radical fantasy that if you let the oligarchs have their way, the proletariat will magically come together and bring the revolution.

    But I do like the idea of challenging the conservatives by offering to shut down ALL government services. Conservatives try to control the debate by declaring that the government is only defense and whatever else they favor, but this is arbitrary. Libertarians cannot even make a coherent argument for any government services because they are so hypnotized by their fantasy of a perfect free market.

    There are probably laws prohibiting this, but I wonder. Could a state eliminate itself and become a federal territory? It would be wild to see Minnesota become something like a huge reservation administered by the feds.

  93. 93
    Corner Stone says:

    What’s to be said to someone like you? Except to make sure you work the shaft and balls a little too. While you’re down there.
    It doesn’t matter if it’s .90 out of every dollar, you will be here loudly proclaiming a victory.

  94. 94
    Rick Taylor says:

    President Obama will never, ever allow a default on the “full faith and credit”. I have no idea how anyone familiar with Obama can argue he will.

    __
    It may not be up to him. Republicans do seem to want to negotiate with the President, but they need support from Democrats in the House and the Senate.

  95. 95
    General Stuck says:

    It doesn’t matter if it’s .90 out of every dollar, you will be here loudly proclaiming a victory.

    Didn’t that figure come from the wizards over at FDL? or some other lib blog? Nobody really knows all the details of what is being discussed, or was discussed until the wingers walked out, which should be a sign they are not happy with what Obama wants. At least to a normal person.

    I don’t know what the overall ratio of spending cuts to new taxes and other revenue generation, but I think it includes rolling back now the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, and a host of closing loopholes. So I suspect it is more than 10 percent to 90 percent spending cuts. A chunk of which is military spending cuts.

  96. 96
    The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik says:

    The only thing that keeps me from falling into ‘Let It Burn’ level despair is that I’ve kind of already passed that level…and my current pit of despair is recognizing, like many others, is that it WILL burn, and the Hippies will still get all the blame and the only solution we’ll ever have voiced is more tax cuts, more spending cuts, and hell, lets cull all those goddamn leeches who had the gall to not be rich in the first place. It’s all their fault anyway.

    I don’t want it to burn. But it’s going to. And nothing’s going to stop it from burning, and nothing’s going to stop the wingnuts from successfully pinning the blame all on us. We’re past the point of being totally fucked.

  97. 97
    Stentor says:

    America! Fuck Yeah!

  98. 98
    boss bitch says:

    I find it very instructive that the same people who vociferously argued here at BJ that ACA was the best possible deal to help the helpless are now making the argument that letting “it” burn to teach Republicans a lesson is the way to go.

    Its pretty obvious that these people are speaking out of temporary frustration and is not indicative of a permanent descent into firebaggery. Should a reasonable deal be presented they will choose the deal over letting the motherfucker burn.

  99. 99
    NobodySpecial says:

    Here’s Stuck, pretending he’s going to suddenly get negotiated rates for drugs and Bush tax cut rollbacks from the Tea Party, along with funding cuts to Medicare that he insists won’t affect benefits, but can’t specify how that works without bafflegab.

    Screams ‘Trust me, I know what I’m doing.’ From the guy who admits he knows nothing in the case of Stuck.

  100. 100
    joeyess says:

    And I’m tired of the underclass of very poor wingnuts who make no money, rely on the state and the feds, but vote for these nutjobs because the baby jeebus tells them to. Maybe a couple months without the services they need to survive will knock some sense into them.

    Resignedly agreed.

  101. 101
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .
    @95 Generally Stuck

    Nobody really knows all the details of what is being discussed.

    That is impossible, because we’re dealing with the Most Transparent Administration Ever, in case you hadn’t noticed.

    Ginni says it’s more transparent than a big, thick, long, thirst-quenching can of Coke. When her mouth is not full, of course – she’s a lady.
    .
    .

  102. 102
    General Stuck says:

    Here is Nobody Special completely missing the point which is not that Obama will not get what he is proposing. Maybe there is a junior college course where you live, or a class on the internet that teaches Politics 101.

  103. 103
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    Republicans know that the Democrats will reflexively fight them to keep cuts from happening (in some areas) or their being too deep. They count on this happening, as it has in the past, which allows them to go off the deep end in their proposals. The adults keep the children from burning the house down again and again, so to say. The kids think it’s a safe bet to keep trying to do so, which enables their behavior. I think the Repubs would choke if one day the Democrats go ahead and say ‘Go ahead, burn the fucker down and lets see what happens next’. The Repubs know that it isn’t only libruls who depend on government services and that if they did indeed burn it down that there would be hell to pay for it.

    Sure, the 27%er’s will cheer their asses off at first, as will the free market glibertarians. But once it hits home that they too will be burned in the pyre then some of them are going to realize that maybe the bullshit they’ve been being fed by the pols they worshiped was just that, bullshit. If that happens then the Repubs will no longer be thought of as the ‘serious adults’ that they are now considered.

    A shutdown will hit the wealthy too, there’s no avoiding that. If the debt ceiling isn’t raised then the financial markets will tank, making their assets worth much less than they are today. While they will be much better off than everyone else, they are going to be pissed as they watch their wealth diminish daily as the bad news rolls in. I don’t want to see it happen but I’m of the opinion that if the petulant little fire-starting fuckers want to burn it down then let’s see what they do once they have done so.

    The Repubs hate to see any social program that helps the poor and disadvantaged but at the same time these same assholes make money from those who get it from the government. The poor spend whatever money they have to live today because they need to. When that money dries up then these same people who are calling for spending cuts and no lifting of the debt limit are going to be upset that the dollars have quit rolling in to their bank accounts.

    Thus my saying ‘let it burn’. I don’t think the Dems will let it happen but I wouldn’t care much if they surprised me and did let it happen.

  104. 104
    jimbob says:

    Happy Birthday, America! You’ve been aborted!

  105. 105
    The Raven says:

    Well, hey, maybe you hominids need to try a little privatized taxation.

  106. 106
    Kenneth Almquist says:

    “Maybe a couple months without the services they need to survive will knock some sense into them.”

    I hope I’m wrong, but my guess is that most of them will get mad–very mad–at the Democrats, and vote Republican again.

  107. 107
    Corner Stone says:

    @boss bitch

    Its pretty obvious that these people are speaking out of temporary frustration and is not indicative of a permanent descent into firebaggery. Should a reasonable deal be presented they will choose the deal over letting the motherfucker burn.

    bitch, well of course they will, pooh bear. If a “reasonable” deal is offered there’s just no freakin’ doubt it will be accepted.
    Even if that “reasonable” deal is .90 cents on the dollar cuts to services, simples like yourself will waste no time in telling all of us how that was the “reasonable” deal to be had. And anything else would have led to it all burning down.

  108. 108
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .
    @107 Corner Stone

    Even if that “reasonable” deal is .90 cents on the dollar cuts to services, simples like yourself will waste no time in telling all of us how that was the “reasonable” deal to be had.

    AKA, “the lesser of two unreasonables”… Balloonbaggers live for that shit.
    .
    .

  109. 109
    cinesimon says:

    Aah, Rick Taylor, what on earth makes you think that “Republicans do seem to want to negotiate with the President”?
    I mean, their base has basically forbidden them to do so, and Cantor and all the rest have made it perfectly clear over and over that tax increases will not be a part of negotiation. That means NO negotiation, they want it 100% their way or they let the country burn.
    That’s just a fact, cannot be taken any other way, and is, as I said initially, what the right wing base are demanding.

    Obama and the Dems have made as much of an effort as they can be reasonably expected to with regards to attempting to negotiate with those sociopaths. There is no short term possibility there, and Obama has proven that to most rational people paying attention – to the point, as we all know, that he has frustrated the base endlessly with his attempts at good faith discussion.
    I think he has done the right thing in this regard, and now must find ways to save the economy without them, with the Dems, and possibly with a small amount of republicans(though even that is a stretch) – as the gop have clearly indicated is the only way he can move forward.

    I just find it insane how any reasonable person can suggest that at this pint, the republicans want to negotiate with Obama. It’s just bizarre.

  110. 110
    genghisjon says:

    http://youtu.be/NOErZuzZpS8 I live in minn. I’m on ssdi.This pretty much sums up how i feel rite now.Hopefully not tommorow

  111. 111
    harlana says:

    Why aren’t the dems running ads every day with “Closed—to the public and closed for business” stamped on pictures of every national monument, hospital, and school?

    Why indeed. But we don’t want to hurt anybody’s fee-fees, you see. Would be nice if they would try this on a national level. And I am really tired of seeing pro-Ryan plan, anti-Obama ads – no rebuttals, people? Naw, didn’t think so. It’s really enough to make one want to drive an ice pick through one’s skull. But I wouldn’t give republicans the satisfaction plus they want me, and all of us, to die slowly, I keep forgetting that.

  112. 112
    harlana says:

    You think those who have spent the state into oblivion might be to blame?

    Erhm, Pawlenty you mean?

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