They did it in NY.
This might be the proverbial break in the dam, if you will, and I bet more states will follow. Sure, there will be vicious pushback, and I suspect the usual suspects will ratchet up the gay bashing in the short term, but they are losing this war and they know it. One of the paradoxes of a move forward like this is that in the short term, despite this big victory for gay right in NY, things will probably get uglier for gays for the next couple of months. I wouldn’t be surprised to see vicious anti-gay legislation advanced in safe red states over the next few months.
But I think this really is a big deal, a tipping point, if you will. One of the most vexing things for gays, I imagine, is Obama’s constantly “evolving” position on gay marriage. I don’t for one minute think he is actually opposed to gay marriage, but is waiting for the moment when he can say “Look, the public clearly supports this, and I have changed my mind, etc. blah blah blah.” That’s just how he operates. He’s for permanent change, not pyrrhic victories. DADT didn’t end simply because of strong leadership by Obama, but because the public dragged our elected elites across the finish line.
It’s a good day for America. I’m heading off to a wedding this evening to see two good friends tie the knot. It’s nice to know that at least in NY and several other states, we are no longer making some silly judgment that my friend’s heterosexual love is somehow more real or more legitimate than the love gays and lesbians have for each other in the Empire State. It’s slow going, and there will be rocky spots ahead, but last night was a great victory in a long, hard-fought war for equality for all Americans.
Trurl
Profile in courage.
The funny thing is, when Mitt Romney makes up new “personal convictions” as the electoral tide favors, you call him an unprincipled hypocrite.
But then he’s a Republican, isn’t he.
debg
TPM’s slideshow from Stonewall had me in tears. What a great day. We were watching the Twitter feed from an Albany reporter like cats at a mousehole last night, though as allies our right to marry has never been an issue.
John Cole
Way to miss the point
trollTrurl.John Weiss
Some Progressives don’t understand that progress is a long-term effort: ten steps forward, nine steps back. It takes patient (or not so patient) effort generation after generation. I started my effort in the sixties: look how far we’ve come in only 45 years!
Progressive changes always happen from the bottom up. Thank the Gods that PBO wants to help it happen.
Carol
The dam truly has broken, and I think the resistance will now be futile and pointless. Yes, certain red states will go crazy, but in a growing sea of blue, it won’t matter. And New York, especially those pretty small towns in upstate, could use a few new good residents anyway. I imagine that in the next 10 years, there will be a stream of couples who decided that they can spend a little more for living somewhere openly. I can see them buying up houses and setting up shop.
Add the high-speed rail that has been approved that makes going to NYC a breeze, and things can pick up nicely in the state.
Niagara Falls, anyone?
Trurl
Oh, and about DADT having “ended”?
http://www.stripes.com/gates-won-t-finalize-dadt-repeal-before-leaving-office-1.147321
Also, the check is in the mail.
MAJeff
This might be the proverbial break in the dam, if you will, and I bet more states will follow.
It’s gonna be really, really difficult due to all of the constitutional amendments that were passed in the last decade. Twenty-nine states have constitutional bans on recognition. A few states without such bans–MN, NC, IN, WV, PA–are sites of political battles over creating constitutional bans. Those may not all materialize, and the shifting public opinion we’re seeing will help, but the GOP remains obsessively anti-gay.
John Weiss
@Turl:
DADT hasn’t been enforced for months. It will be repealed. Sometimes the check is in the mail.
Comrade Luke
I think this is great, but I also wonder if we’re headed toward a situation where what we see as red/blue on the electoral map starts representing laws as well.
For example, I can’t see the south ever doing something like this without a federal mandate.
Will the south end up being part of the country in name only in a few 10s of years, with its only “positive” that it’s the last place corporations go to use cheap labor in the states before moving operations overseas?
Yutsano
My personal opinion is that was Iowa. Or at the very least Iowa was the big major crack, especially since the culture warriors couldn’t even reverse it there. That was the biggest stake in the heart to opposing gay marriage than anything. New York just has economy of scale working for it. My next prediction in the domino chain: Oregon. Call it a feeling.
It’s vexing if you have a misunderstanding of how progress works. Progress is slow. It’s grinding. It’s often frustrating as hell. But as long as there are activists willing to agitate for progress, positive change does happen.
Derf
>”One of the most vexing things for gays, I imagine, is Obama’s constantly “evolving” position on gay marriage”<
Another day, another Obama concern troll by Republitarian John Galt Cole.
MAJeff
My next prediction in the domino chain: Oregon. Call it a feeling.
It’ll take an election campaign to amend the Oregon constitution; it’s one of the 29 states with constitutional bans.
The Dangerman
Eventually, this will go to the USSC, which will strike down those bans. Until that time, the battle is won, but the war will drag on with unforseen consequences (i.e., 2012 and the Rovian initiatives to GOTV from the Troglodytes).
eemom
oh Cole Cole Cole Cole Cole.
Ya pulled a Rachel Maddow.
If you hadn’t gone and inserted that sentence this could have been a 100% happy joyous celebratory thread of rejoicing.
But you HAD to go and give the Trruls of the blog an OPENING.
One might almost think you ENJOY sparking flame wars.
Oh wait…..
JPL
but, but, but……
BTW, Have a wonderful time at the wedding.
boss bitch
One of the most vexing thing for gays shouldn’t be Obama’s “evolving” position. He is not an obstacle. Worry about getting a better majority in the Senate, getting back our majority in the House and then hope that Obama gets to replace 1-2 more justices.
Carol
I think California will be next. Either there will be a counter-proposition to Prop 8, or the legislature will act, or the Federal Courts reverse Prop 8. Too many irons in the fire for one not to fall out of it. Remember the California Legislature already passed gay marriage twice, only to face an Arnold veto. If that way is still open, Brown would sign the bill.
S. cerevisiae
Well spoken John and good for NY. A great day and a step forward towards equal rights for all. I am straight but I have friends and relatives who are not and it is good to see the tide starting to turn against bigotry.
stuckinred
Niagara Falls!
Step by step
inch by inch
eemom
@ Dangerman
Yeah, we have one of those bans here in Ole Virginny. And it’s worse than most because it prohibits anything even approximating marriage, i.e. civil unions.
It got zero attention when it achieved its ignominious passage in 2006 — the same year the tide began to turn here as elsewhere with Jim Webb’s defeat of Macaca Allen — a fact which has always pissed me off.
Roger Moore
@Trurl:
It doesn’t help that Romney has been known to take both sides of an issue within 24 hours. If you can’t see the difference between somebody who changes his opinions over time and somebody who takes whatever position he thinks will help him with the audience he’s talking to right now, there’s no help for you.
eemom
@ stuckinred
As a lifelong fan of all things I Love Lucy, I am partial to their version of that.
Maaaartha…..
dr. bloor
@Carol: As Chris Rock used to say, “Here comes the neighborhood!”
I’m happiest this morning for my friends Bill and Dan. They were together before I met my wife–my first one, that is–through that marriage, after that marriage, and now into my second.
Loneoak
I’ll second Carol: CA could have it pretty quickly if the federal courts toss Prop 8. Which would in many ways be the best outcome because it would set a solid precedent at the federal level.
The Dangerman
Draconian, no doubt, but reflects the fact that our governing system is set up for slow/incremental change; push too hard for too big of a change and you get a pushback such as the above (or, for another example, the fact that we didn’t have a President Kerry because of Ohio and their initiative).
Stephen1947
You are almost always so reasonable, Mr. Cole, that it’s nearly impossible to believe that you were ever a Publican. I appreciate your reason esp. when you are writing about making mistakes, and apologizing for them – which is not the case here.
Also, I suspect that Trurl and his emotional kin have their heads so far up their asses that everything in their worlds smells like shit. I’d ignore them except for the tiny expenditure of energy necessary for feeling sorry for their pathetic lives.
Roger Moore
@Yutsano:
And it often works by convincing one person at a time that their old views are wrong. I don’t honestly know if Obama is staking out the popular opinion and is gradually shifting his position as the polls change or if he’s genuinely opposed to marriage equality but is being convinced. But the one of the biggest ways of convincing skeptics will be letting gay marriage hang around for a while without the sky falling. It’s an inherently slow process, but it’s the strongest way of refuting the most over the top criticism of marriage equality.
lamh34
it’s so interesting to me how it’s ok, that the NY GOP who voted for this bill who’s feelings “evolved” on this issues are being celebrated and taken at face value, but Obama alleged “evolution” means that he’s obviously “against what just happened” as Rachel said.
It’s all political.
Anyway, as I’ve said since last night…congrats to NY LGBT.
Linda Featheringill
John Weiss #4
Lots of struggling forward and sliding back. But progress had been made over the past decades on several fronts.
It does get frustrating. I’ve seen lots of anger and lots of tears over the years [my own]. And then sometimes I look around and say “Wow. How about that?”
[Where have you been? You’re new to me. Lurking? Come out and play sometime. :-)]
eemom
I would bet the rent it’s the former. He has too much sense to be opposed, imo. I mean it is really a no brainer for anyone who isn’t a religious freak and/or a raging homophobe.
As has often been pointed out before, why hand the fucktard brigade another cudgel to beat him with?
Roger Moore
@Carrol:
It’s not. Prop 8 amended the State Constitution. It can only be undone by another Constitutional Amendment or a court ruling that it’s contrary to the US Constitution.
And can I just say “Fuck that hypocrite Arnold with a very rusty pitchfork”?
Deathstar
Not really convinced that this a “tipping point” (It is to the extent that pre-Prop 8 California was a tipping point–that is, the country is evolving on gay rights too). Mr Cole asserts this a couple times but doesn’t say why he thinks it’s so. I got that from Sully’s analysis as well.
The predictions of backlash legislation in red states is going to be hard to suss out of all the anti-gay legislation that is ongoing in red states. (Douche-pheasant Stacey Campfield has been pushing the Don’t Say Gay bill in Tennessee for years.)
IanH
This will certainly be a boom for the baby oil industry. Lubrication, away!
gex
And here in Minnesota ( the Mississippi of the north) looking to amend the Constitution to ban SSM specifically. There’s no doubt this is related to have not one, but two presidential hopefuls from the Regressive party.
Hopefully it will fail. I’m beginning to thing the odds of it failing are improving.
bemused
Senator Mike Gronstal’s daughter told a group of older men negatively discussing gay marriage that they don’t understand that they have already lost that argument. Most in her generation has no issues with it.
I think that is true of so many other issues that far right conservatives are so feverishly trying to legislate to their ideology. They know time is not on their side. I just read that the 2010 census showed non-white babies born outnumbering white babies for the first time and will be voting age in 2018.
The ideologues have already lost on many fronts, imo. It’s just a matter of time. They can delay it and cause a lot of damage which why we can’t let up but the they are swimming against the tide.
Martin
Good work NY. On behalf of CA, let me say I’m ashamed we let that get away from us for a while, but I think we’ll have that all wrapped up and corrected soon.
IanH
This will be a boom for the baby oil industry.
Also, most of you left wingers are very funny, but not in the way you think.
Valdivia
@ lamh34
even better if you check out last night’s thread again the argument being made in support of the idea that Cuomo is the true liberal hero on all things, erasing even his budget, are not substantive at all. Just kills me.
Sarah in Brooklyn
if you want to feel good, go read Mark Grisanti’s Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/SenatorGrisanti
it’s a love fest!
gex
@21 – First, I am not with Trurl. But Obama was for SSM before he ran for POTUS. His against it stance was for the national audience. And it will change again when supporting SSM helps more than it hurts.
I don’t have any problems with that. I’d rather have him get elected/reelected and continue to do things that help gays rather than have him meet some litmus test, not get elected, and leave us with someone who will do things to harm gays.
Valdivia
I want to add though that while I am no fan of Cuomo he gets props for going to bat for this one. Much deserved marriage equality finally real in NYS.
Trurl
Are you referring to Obama supporting gay marriage in 1996 and not supporting it in 2008? Then trying to claim he hadn’t supported it in 1996 before the physical evidence showed up proving he was lying?
If you can see a difference between Obama’s behavior and Romney’s, there’s no help for you.
But by all means, today is for celebrating. Obama’s cowardice on the issue is now a matter of historical record for his biographers to deal with.
Jewish Steel
@Le Derf
Bon Jour, mon ami! Comment allez-vous aujourd’hui? Still working on the comprehension d’anglais? She is a tricky language, non?
B-J has no shortage of polyglots & latinists here to give you any help you might need. Just ask!
Keith G
As a gay guy born in 58, and growing into my gayness in the 70’s, I never thought I would see this (back then).
This is huge. This tells kids like I was, that one can be a full part of society. It will make such a big difference in kids’ lives.
It really will. I was tearing up as I heard the play by play on Maddow.
Roger Moore
@eemom:
I’m not sure of that. I’ve met enough otherwise sensible people who are opposed- often only to the idea of calling marriage by the same name when gays do it- that I can believe it of almost anyone. Some people are just selectively irrational about some issues, and marriage equality seems to be one that brings them out of the woodwork. It’s like a poke in they eye to some people pointing out how much the world has changed since they were kids.
John Weiss
@Linda Featheringill
“[Where have you been? You’re new to me. Lurking? Come out and play sometime. :-)]”
Awww… Thanks. Second best thing someone’s said to me today.
On this site, I lurk quite a lot; the truth is, someone has usually beaten me to what I was thinking. Bright lot here, don’t you agree? And usually quite fun!
amk
well said, cole.
@ trurl – freepersville that way —->. Fuck off.
MomSense
@NOBot or Trurl. I gave you a nickname. Hope you don’t mind.
Are you happy about marriage equality in NY? I couldn’t tell where you stood on the actual issue from your posts.
I think it is fantastic. We had marriage equality briefly here in Maine although it never got a chance to take effect because we lost it in a referendum process that was driven by the Catholic Church running horrific ads paid for by second collections during Mass.
So we keep working to soften hardened hearts one by one until we achieve full equality.
John Weiss
@Roger Moore:
For what it’s worth, my youngest son, in his twenties, and his friends don’t give a flip whether a person is gay, straight, whatever. Completely a non-issue to them. Makes my heart glad.
Genine
@39 Gex-
I agree. It sucks but that’s how things are politically. One thing that annoys me about the more-progressive-than-thou types is that they want someone to act in a way that will not get him or her elected and almost guarantee a worse outcome for those they are advocating for.
And not only that, if the person DID act the in the desired way on a lot of issues, one wrong move (or a rumor of a bad move on the way) from that person would cause that group to stab the person in the back and declare him or her “worse than Bush.” Then they whine about their lack of allies.
I don’t agree with all of the Administration’s actions but I get the long view. You work with the electorate you have, not the one you wish you had.
Yutsano
Unwritten law of BJ: if you have a thought, type fast. Odds are with the brain trust here someone else has thought of it and is typing as you type. If you duplicate, better to be first than second.
Davis X. Machina
Another coward:
Sometimes the mutatis don’t mutandis fast enough, but that doesn’t mean they never change.
Complaining about a politician trimming is like sending an ice cream sundae back to the kitchen with the waiter because it’s not hot enough.
shortstop
Absolutely, but I think the fact that he was unequivocally for equal marriage 15 years ago makes that unlikely. With some notable exceptions, people who change their minds on civil rights issues tend to evolve toward the expansion of them. Here in Illinois, it was never in question back in the day that he was on the right side of this issue. I doubt he’s suddenly been visited by three convincing fundamentalist ghosts in a dream.
It goes without saying that I don’t share Trurl’s analysis of all of that. Trurl is one of the folks who really, really wants to lose politically because victimhood feels sooooooo much better to him/her than winning. He/she isn’t relevant.
Yutsano
I’d lay money the fact that the President is near has a factor in this too.
John Weiss
@Davis X. Machina:
Barak Obama is not a coward, he’s a fuckin’ politician, for crying out loud, and a pretty darned good one at that. What do you want from the man?
Hugh
My partner and I have been together fifteen years. We have a seven-year-old daughter. We live in New York. We had a commitment ceremony twelve years ago. It’ll be so good to tie the knot legally. Christ, though. It’ll have to be pot luck.
If I may be so brash, an article was done about us in the local part of the NYTimes online a week ago for fathers day. The timing has made this feel particularly good.
MomSense
@39 and @49
Yup, agree with both of you. Also, too can’t ordinary people drive meaningful change from the bottom up?
Valdivia
@ Hugh–congrats and what a lovely family! Even if your partner is wearing those crocks with socks ;)
shortstop
Aw, it’s not that big a deal. I wouldn’t want to scare off people who are concerned that it’s a competition.
Brachiator
lamh34
Davis X. Machina
where is that 2nd quote from?
shortstop
Psssst, John Weiss, activate your sarcasm detector, please, sir.
lamh: Abraham Lincoln.
Yutsano
Not for me anyway. I wasn’t intending on discouraging commenting, just promoting fast typing. :)
Valdivia
@ John Weiss–but he has to be a coward you know cause otherwise all the hate of him in light of all the incredible things he got accomplished in 2 years (lily ledbetter, aca, DADT repeal, to name a few) just makes no sense right?
ETA oops I guess I too need my sarcasm detector adjusted….
J.W. Hamner
I don’t curse often in public but: FUCK YEAH!
Don K
Well, unfortunately, the first agenda item is to try to beat back the proposed constitutional amendment in Minnesota next year. The proponents will, as usual, be lavishly funded, and will have no shame about producing TV ads saying something like, “OMG! If this amendment isn’t passed, Minnesota is only one judicial decision away from having kindergarten kids taught about cocksucking and buttfucking!”
I think this is like the moment in the Road Runner cartoons when the Coyote runs off the edge of a cliff, continues running in midair, realizes there’s not anything under him, then hangs in the air for a few seconds before crashing to earth. The dam may have broken, but the water doesn’t know it yet, and in this case it could take several years to make any more progress. Right now, the list of states with the right circumstances (no constitutional prohibition, Dem legislature and Dem governor) is pretty much limited to RI, DE, MD, IL, WA, and HI. IIRC, all of these states have been through this battle in the legislature or in a referendum in the last year or two, and it might be a while before anyone wants to take another run at things.
The next battle after MN might be to take a stab at repealing the constitutional prohibition in a fairly small state that’s reasonably blue and allows the initiative for proposing constitutional amendments (maybe OR or CO).
As far as it being only certain red states that will go crazy, there are two bills in the Michigan legislature that would prohibit any public employer in the state of Michigan (state, counties, municipalities, state universities, community colleges, school districts) from offering domestic partner benefits. They really can’t go much further than that here, because (thanks to the perpetually Republican Senate) there are no sexual-orientation protections to be repealed.
Davis X. Machina
Another Springfield statehouse hack. Lincoln-Douglas debates. Charleston, IL 1858.
Brachiator
Arrg! I put the quote in the wrong place and strangely could not complete editing my post. Apologies.
handsmile
Dangerman #13:
Wish I could share your conviction that a majority of the arch-conservative Roberts Court (upon which sit four? five? Roman Catholics) will decide to strike down state bans on the recognition of civil unions. Has Anthony Kennedy distinguished himself as a champion of individual rights?
Moreover, several years will pass before relevant cases wend their way to Supreme Court review. A passage of time that will likely bring a change in the roster of the Court and perhaps, catastrophically, the resident of the White House.
Sorry to be a grump on this celebratory day but I cannot foresee the Supreme Court being a vehicle for the expansion of civil rights for quite some time. Gleeful to be wrong, of course.
John Cole: as to this thread’s title, I applaud your equanimity on your ultimate cosmic fate. See you there!
Valdivia
@ Davis X. Machina—can we get more of these hacks please?
Hugh
@Valdivia Thanks. And you are by no means the first person to comment about those crocks, but you are the first to note they come with socks. (I tried to work in a Green Eggs and Ham allusion due to the rhyme but I had to settle with being prosaic about it. Oh well.) – Would you wear those crocks with socks?
lamh34
@ shortstop
thx. knowing ho made the quote changes the context of what as said.
scav
Would you wear those crocks with socks?
Or should we put them in a box?
A box with locks? The locks of lox?
We needs some talks on crocks with socks
because when we walks, some mocks.
ETA. A Pox on mocks of crocs with socks!
Valdivia
hugh @ 71–this is one of my very few sartorial things: nothing that looks like a sandal or could be considered a sandal should be worn with socks. spent too many years around musty academics who did this and well, I got an allergy to it.
but your partner is totally fetching aside from that :D
please excuse my banality regarding this fashion preference..
John Weiss
@Momsense:
“Yup, agree with both of you. Also, too can’t ordinary people drive meaningful change from the bottom up?”
I think that that’s the only way change happens.
shortstop
His record on gay rights has been rather more friendly than otherwise: Rome v. Evans, Lawrence v. Texas, etc. Last year, he opined against the Christian Legal Society’s argument that it should have a religious exemption (at a public university) from barring students based on sexual orientation.
So there is reason for hope, if not for any kind of certainty.
shortstop
I would like to piggyback on this. Dear elderly women of America: capri pants with athletic shoes and ankle-high socks are a Glamour Don’t, Don’t, Don’t. Love, your fellow citizens.
ETA: Hugh! What an adorable family!
JPL
Hugh, Thank you so much for sharing your story and what a beautiful story it is.
Edit…also, too..cute pup
MomSense
@John Weiss
Yes!!
John Weiss
@shortstop:
“Psssst, John Weiss, activate your sarcasm detector, please, sir.”
As Tweetie would put it, HA!
How is a person to tell the difference between irony and moronity if you are communicating by written word and you don’t know the person? I’m neither a telepath nor a genius.
Thanks for your kind attention.
Valdivia
@shortstop–yay! I am not the only one. Living in DC you get to see a lot of RealAmerican Men wearing sandals with black or brown dress socks and shorts. Just don’t please!
harlana
But what will become of this generation in such a dismal economy, I wonder. I sorta feel bad for them and I’m glad I don’t bear any responsibility for destroying their future (I have never voted republican), which republicans are chomping at the bit to do. Degrading and punishing the average worker and eradicating the poor. Anyone who loves their children/grandchildren, I don’t know how can you vote republican? Cuz, yes, also too, you never know, some of those kids/grandkids may end up needing the social safety net (that already helps support some of you all) you rail against. I see it happen all the time.
Tsulagi
Guessing that Come to Fabulous moment will be about three months after the next election, give or take a little.
Pretty much is by any definition of “is.”
Last week the top NCO in the Marine Corps had this to say about DADT repeal to a group of Marines at a base…
To those with a problem with repeal, he offered this encouragement to assuage their feelings: “Get over it.” Good advice for all our retarded socons.
Paris
As a New Yorker, I’m thrilled. The economic impact will be huge – NY will be even more desirable among the creative types. Now if we can use the Tea Party to convince the feds to stop transferring tax payments from the wealthy blue states to the poor reactionary ones, we’ll be all set.
shortstop
DXM is an established master of dry wit, but in any case, weren’t his last couple of lines a giveaway?
scav
Any fox in crocs with socks rox! We gawks.
But flocks of docs in crocks with socks
wander on the docks with awks.
and I’m really really going to have to hurt someone that got this in my brain.
blogreeder
John:
Boy, John, when you’re bought, you stay bought! I don’t think I’ve read anything more weaselly. If this happens, would this be an example of President Obama leading from behind? I guess that would be apropos.
Genine
@57 Momsense-
Yes. I really believe in change from the bottom up. It’s nice if the President agrees with me (and, for the record, I think he does). But at the very least, I want one that won’t get in the way or actively fight against what we are trying to accomplish.
Yutsano
ZOMG a politician acting like a politician! Summon the couches of fainting!
(psst, you’re a fucking teabagger, and you’re losing. To quote the Commandant of the USMC, “Get over it.”)
Cassidy
Re: DADT
Training is currently going on right now. Recruiters started recruiting openly gay civilians over a month ago and there is no longer a required declaration for heterosexuality. Training and integration has allready begun in TRADOC with no negative issues so far; the younger generations don’t give a shit anyway. My Senior leadership had training just this past week and implemented company level training immediately. My Commander flat out said that if homosexuals aren’t treated as Soldiers with respect like any other Soldier he will gladly expedite your release from the service no matter how many years you have in.
This is the military. We don’t do regulation changes quickly. Hell, it takes us two years to implement a uniform change.
Observerinvancouver
I agree with you about Pres. Obama. “He’s for permanent change, not pyrrhic victories.”
He’s making so many changes one small step at a time that it’s difficult for the wingnuts to rev up the backlash machine. This is a big disappointment for those on the left who want to yell, “Nyah, nyah, nyah.” at the wingnuts but they’ll likely come around some day.
shortstop
That’ll happen a lot faster now that you’ve got some decent fashion consultants serving openly. KIDDING!
MomSense
@Hugh
Thank you for sharing your story. Beautiful!
South of I-10
@Hugh you have a beautiful family. Post some wedding pics for us once you have them! I’ll keep all crocs with socks comments to myself.
Cassidy
As long as they don’t bring the beret back.
Yutsano
Berets can DIAF. But no one better mess with Marine dress blues.
Cassidy
Yeah, those Navy guys will be pissed when they can’t pick there marine out of a crowd.
Villago Delenda Est
Poe’s Law is universal.
shortstop
Doubt you have anything to worry about unless you start recruiting middle-aged FX experts.
jcricket
I ♥ NY
I predict both Republican NY senators will be primaried by teabagger neanderthal fuckwits as Republicans continue their march rightward to oblivion.
I live in a neighborhood where straight people barely outnumber the gays, and the idea that anyone should be denied the same rights I enjoy as a hetero is just fucking ludicrous, cruel and stupid.
Call me a partisan hack all you want, but given the Republican embrace (again) of bigotry, I’ not only never voting for a Republican (local, state, federal), but I’m pretty sure that I think people who still consider themselves Republicans should be ashamed of themselves.
Dennis SGMM
Speaking from the perspective of an Old Guy, I suspect that the days of breakthrough legislation (Social Security, the Civil Rights Act, kind of legislation) are over. You can attribute that to any number of things, the fact is that incremental change seems to be as good as it gets for the foreseeable future. I don”t particularly like but, that’s the way it seems to be.
Villago Delenda Est
ONLY for Rangers, SF, and Airborne.
Everyone else can suffer with the modified baseball cap.
Hugh
@South of 1-10
@Momsense
@JPL
@Shortstop
Thanks for all the nice words :-) A family picture can just about never go wrong when there’s a child and a puppy in it. Now it’s off to the playground. Gotta pry my daughter away from the other computer and Michael Jackson videos. Happy Saturday all.
Violet
Such great news from NY. It’ll be interesting to see which state is next.
Hugh:
Lovely story. Your family is beautiful. Crocs with socks are fine with me, if that’s what makes the wearer happy. I wore Birks with socks for awhile after I injured my foot in a bicycling accident and that was the only footwear I could get on my swollen foot. People didn’t like the look of it, but at least my feet stayed warm in January.
Cassidy
Technically the beret is still around, but only for the dress uniforms. Regular ACU uniform is soft cap now. Actually, this was the first uniform change I’ve seen in 13 years that didn’t wait two years. It happened overnight. One day I was fine, next day out of uniform because I literally didn’t get the memo.
askew
Minnesota is in no way the Mississippi of the north. WTF kind of comparison is that? Minnesota places at the top of list of states for education, health systems, etc., while Mississippi is fighting with Alabama for last.
On a more serious note is any other state close to equalizing gay marriage or are do we need wait until after 2012 for the next state?
RobNYNY1957
I understand that the final version of the law has a provision that says that if any of the religious exemptions are found to be unconsitutional, that the whole law is null and void. How soon before the opponents of marriage bring a lawsuit and try to get a restraining order on the effectiveness of the law? I say by the end of the week.
MikeJ
Hugh @ 71: thank him for going his part to destroy stereotypes, like the one that all gay people have fashion sense. His obviously approaches mine.
Steaming Pile
#1 – President Obama is nothing if not a pragmatist. That is why he is the President of the United States. He knows full well that he cannot get elected to nationwide office by carrying maybe half of the Kerry states and nowhere else. What do Rachael Maddow and the others expect him to say about this still quite sticky subject? Hmm?
@Mr. Cole – Also consider that this is Albany we’re talking about. The most dysfunctional state legislature in the Western Hemisphere. It is hard to get something non-controversial done there, let alone something like this. I am nearly paralyzed in amazement.
handsmile
shortshop @76
Greatly appreciated your Court citations, especially CLS v. Martinez because of its recent issue. (In both Romer and Lawrence, fully half of the majority no longer sit on the court.)
Indeed, those cases are more pertinent than some that underlay my fears, viz., Gonzalez v. Carhart or Salazar v. Buono, that were of great importance to the leadership of certain faith traditions aggressively opposed to civil rights for the LGBT community.
Yes, on such a grand day, “there is reason for hope.” Thanks again!
MikeJ
Not just a pragmatist, but also low key in his approach to everything. There’s no way he would have been elected as an angry, screaming black man, even if he was screaming about how cute kittens are. The content of his speeches is judged separately from their colour (tone).
Roger Moore
@Steaming Pile:
FTFY.
Steeplejack
Can we get an open thread up in here? I need to issue a DVR Alert! for the all-time great film noir Out of the Past (1947) at 8:00 p.m. EDT tonight on Turner Classic Movies. Robert Mitchum, Jane Greer, Kirk Douglas, directed by Jacques Tourneur.
Wait, never mind.
Mike M
It took the work of a lot of people in and outside of government to get the New York legislature to change the marriage laws. One activist who was interviewed on Anderson Cooper’s show last night said that he had been working on the issue for the past 20 years. Certainly a lot of credit must go to the tireless efforts of Cuomo and Bloomberg who helped secure all the votes. Congratulations to everyone involved!
I believe that Obama has been a positive force nationwide in securing civil rights for gay people. Although many people would like him to do more, his administration is very careful — perhaps too careful — not to push too hard and create a powerful backlash that would scuttle the entire progressive agenda. (Keep in mind, too, that black Christian churches are among the most fervently opposed to gay rights.) I remember quite well how Clinton, in the early days of his administration, tried to “do the right thing” on gay rights and we ended up with DADT for nearly 20 years.
Smaller steady steps are often much mre achievable than a major change in direction. I hope that NY signifies a tipping point, but there are sure to be many tough battles to come.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Luke
Huh. Did you maybe miss all the sectional disputes between North and South prior to 1860? And that thing called, variously, “The Civil War”, “The War of Southron Independence”, “The War Between the States”, “The War Against Northern Agression”, “The War to Preserve the Union”, and to those of a non-partisan bent, “The Late Unpleasantness”?
Then there were Jim Crow laws, segregation, miscegenation laws, voter suppression laws in the form of literacy tests and poll taxes—the South functioned in many ways as a separate country from most of US history, when it comes down to it. In fact, the South has (glacially, it is true) been become less “regional” than it was when I was growing up here 50 years ago. Not that I expect it to be a haven of liberalism anytime soon, but the population of hard line “The South’s Gonna Rise Again” die off, and people who aren’t invested in some romantic vision of the antebellum South move into the region to take advantage of lower prices, lower taxes, and in some areas, states that are developing high tech industries as the old focus on agriculture and textiles wither.
JPL
OT… Earlier me mentioned that Judge Prosser according to sources grabbed Judge Bradley around the neck before the anti-union vote. Me is the name of the commenter who first mentioned it, not me….
Anyway the story is now picked up by most of the Wisconsin news sites besides liberal blogs.
Edit .. also, too I’m sure Judge Bradley apologizes for making him choke her.
lamh34
Well, I guess thie will be the new meme of the week.
So I guess Cuomo’s budget fiasco will be forgotten after all.
Cuomo’s Presidential Moment Forms Contrast With Obama
hilts
Has anyone managed to locate footage of Michele Bachmann’s head exploding after she received news of this vote?
JPL
Forbes is now reporting the Judge Prosser story.. Type in Judge Prosser on google news. When I did this a few minutes ago it was 32 hits and is now up to 37. I’m sure he will have to go into treatment because he was suffering from ??????and unfortunately Bradley was in the way.
Steeplejack
@IanH:
Stay classy, dude.
And again I ask: has no one heard of Astroglide?!
ruemara
Whoa, celeb status, Hugh.
But seriously, I just wanted to say, how lovely your daughter is. Consider me dancing in spirit at your wedding.
What he said micro and macro scales, too.
MikeJ
Steeplejack, my first thought on reading his attempt at a joke was “he actually thinks people getting married will lead to *more* sex? That’s not the way I’ve heard it.”
Roger Moore
@Steeplejack:
Not unless you’re a good looking woman John wants to impress. Them’s the rules round these parts.
Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people)
@Hugh What a beautiful family and heart-warming story!
ETA: Congratulations New York!
Steeplejack
@MikeJ:
Heh. True dat.
Steeplejack
@Roger Moore:
And she was about three hours late to her own thread, right? Sheesh.
MattR
@Yutsano –
Sure it is not a shocking development, but neither is it something to be applauded. It is truly sad that President Bush turns out to be a better leader that President Obama, especially since the ideas and policies that Bush was pushing were so horrendous.
Timothy Trollenschlongen (formerly Tim, Interrupted)
@ lamh34 # 117:
I certainly hope so. And deservedly so. From the article you linked to:
Obama doesn’t lack the ability to lead in such a way; he chooses not to utilize his ability, quite obviously. He is a lying, manipulative, Reagan Republican in Dem clothing motherfucker.
“Leading from behind.” HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Somehow, the Audacity of Hope and We Are the Change We’ve Been Waiting For are difficult to reconcile with “Once I am elected, with your votes my fellow Americans, I shall boldly lead from behind.” HAHAHAHAHA
There is simply no Obamian act of appeasement, no lack of spine, no brazen betrayal that you bots will not twist yourselves into pretzels to rationalize/excuse.
I think of myself as a cynic in the original, classic sense of the word. It is you Obots who personify the word in its more modern sense. You should be ashamed.
Brian R.
Concern troll is concerned, and trolly.
Trurl
That’s funny. When Obama campaigned on being a “fierce advocate” for gay rights, I don’t recall any of you expressing concern the he would push too hard and create a powerful backlash that would scuttle the entire progressive agenda. I don’t recall anyone saying he should “lead from behind” instead.
Of course, once he proved to be worthless on the issue, tribal loyalty demanded that you make his lack of spine into a virtue.
Genine
@128 Tim, Interrrupted
Yes, Cuomo was very bold… in the state of New York.
I am not mitigating what Cuomo did in anyway. I’m glad and proud he did what he did. New York definitely more than a fair share of regressives but with New York City and the surrounding area, pushing to legalize gay marriage isn’t THAT much of a gamble.
Now when the governor of Virginia or North Carolina pushes such a measure, I’ll be more in awe of that person’s boldness.
Ken
Comrade Luke @#9:
“Will the south end up being part of the country in name only in a few 10s of years, with its only “positive” that it’s the last place corporations go to use cheap labor in the states before moving operations overseas?”
Georgia’s recent anti-immigration law isn’t working out too well for them right now; maybe they’ve moved your timeline up a bit…
S. cerevisiae
Askew, eight years of Pawlenty have undone years of progressive policies in Minnesota, and right now Dayton is the only thing keeping the wingnut legislature in check. They won’t be satisfied until they turn MN into Mississippi with snow. I hate what is happening to my old home state, it used to be a place to be proud of and the only Republicans who could be elected statewide were moderates like Arne Carlson. Now the political power resides in the suburbs of the Twin Cities (Bachmann land).
WaterGirl
@ crocks and socks
I need to dig out my old cartoon of some guy standing at the pearly gates, being told by St. Peter that he will not be allowed into heaven because he is wearing socks with his birkenstocks.
West of the Cascades
@ Davis X. Machina – yes indeedy – I believe the (newly freed) black population called him “Father Abraham” when he toured Richmond after Jeff Davis cleared out. I’m glad we have a “coward” in the White House who can learn and grow and change his mind and be political when he needs to be so that IN THE LONG RUN there will be significant and permanent change on important issues. And one who’s mindful of Reverend King’s observation that “the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.” The Trurls of the world (whether they’re trolls or firebaggers) either don’t get or won’t acknowledge this.
I also agree with the posters who say that Oregon will be the next state to ratify marriage equality through the political (rather than judicial) process — a ballot measure timed to coincide with the 2012 general election very likely would take the marriage discrimination provision out of our state constitution. It’s not just the political bent of the state towards liberal/libertarian … it’s also an unusual state religiously, with double the percentage of the population (27%) who claim no religious affiliation compared with New York (13%). Also, only 14% of the population is Roman Catholic, compared to 40% in NYS. And a lot of the churches here, especially mainline protestant churches in the Willamette Valley (Portland – Salem – Eugene) support marriage equality – the Portland-based “Community of Welcoming Congregation” has over 110 member groups (churches and other spiritual organizations) that advocate for marriage equality, many from an explicitly Christian point of view. The CWC makes it much harder for the right to twist marriage equality here as an “anti-religious” issue.
Although – one last thought on President Obama – I do rather wish he’d be a little less “long-arc-ed moral universe-y” about the security state and Endless War.
redheadedfemme
@Trurl and @Tim:
Did you wander over here from AmericaBlog and/or Firedoglake? Because they spout the same sort of nonsense. In fact, I just got accused of being a “paid troll” on AmericaBlog.
Is that what you’re doing? It sure looks like it. I hope you’re getting a lot of money to spew such scurrilousness.
WereBear
@Hugh: Awww! Happy Belated Father’s Day! She looks like such a happy little girl — maybe some NY sass there, too?
And of course, any child loves holding a puppy!
Klaus
Hacker: It’s the peoples’ will. I am their leader; I must follow them.
NobodySpecial
Firebagger. Greewaldite. How dare you criticize!
El Cid
Not much to add but ‘Yay!’
boss bitch
@Tim, Interrupted: Here is your bold Cuomo:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/nyregion/the-road-to-gay-marriage-in-new-york.html?pagewanted=4&hp
From the NYT:
If you haven’t read it yet. Cuomo told gay activists to stop fucking shit up and let him handle it. Teamed up with a rich libertarian who would cover the asses of “nervous senators”, peeled off and courted moderate Republicans, and to appease Repubs and the Church, included this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/nyregion/religious-exemptions-were-key-to-new-york-gay-marriage-vote.html?hp
See that? BOLD?! No. That was strategery, COMPROMISE, working with RICH donors and swallowing a bitter pill (expansive protections for religious groups) IN ORDER TO GET SHIT DONE. All this looks so familiar though. I seem to remember a recent historic bill that was passed using pretty much the same tactics.
Oh and look who also “evolved”:
Obama of course is further up the evolutionary ladder because he never did shit like that.
I congratulate my state for their growth. I congratulate Cuomo for his “meticulous” strategy to get this done. I congratulate the activists who were serious enough to organize and work with him. But don’t try to tell me that he’s bolder than Obama. Obama has done some variation of this to get his bills passed for the past 2-3 years. And I’d like to remind you that it was Obama who put it out there that former Gov. Paterson needs to step out of Cuomo’s way because Paterson might drag down the whole party with him. A move his “base” and New Yorkers blasted him for. Good thing we were able to keep that majority, eh?
MomSense
Article on marriage equality, states rights, and DOMA.
http://davescornertavern.blogspot.com/2011/06/quick-primer-on-marriage-and-federalism.html?spref=fb
Hugh
@ Mikej
Oh but has my partner been tempted to jump in and trash the crocks and socks trashers. He’s not normally shy and not exactly shy this time, but he knows he can shoot from the hip and is resisting the impulse. I’m impressed. But really, he is super fashion aware in an alternative gay way. Think of him as a gay, indy dresser. Not indy like ironic t-shirts. Indy in his own private ironic way. He’s been checking the comments frequently looking for any crocks and socks references.
redheadedfemme
@Trurl and @Tim:
Cuomo told gay activists to stop fucking shit up and let him handle it.
Words to live by.
Screeching and caterwauling because you haven’t gotten everything you wanted RIGHT NOW only makes you look like a jackass.
God knows, Cuomo didn’t have to deal with traitorous Blue Dogs, either.
Tonybrown74
\
I actually don’t think it’s quite that. I think it’s the fact that many of these people thought they were getting Samuel A. Jackson for President instead of Obama. As if they expected President Obama to say, “Muthafucka this” and “Muthafucka that” to every issue and olicy debate that comes up.
I think they all want Angry Black Man as President.
AxelFoley
@ Cole:
lolwut?
I believe it was Obama who made Gates and the Pentagon end DADT, not the public. Obama was the one who put the ending of DADT on the table, no one else.
Damn, a brotha can’t get credit for shit, can he? When he does the seemingly impossible, people want to give other folks credit.
WTF?
Corner Stone
@AxelFoley
Ok tough guy. Then why didn’t he pursue this path earlier then? Was it arbitrary? He thought “now” was the fiercely urgent time to act?
Please explain to us how your theory works out.
Because if he “made” them…then there’s a logical series of Q&A to be discussed.
Frankensteinbeck
Corner Stone:
You guys really do think he can wave a magic wand and get anything he wants immediately, don’t you? So if he didn’t, he doesn’t want to?
He got DADT repealed legislatively, which means he had to convince congress. As for the ‘why not earlier’, because he waited until he had the best chance to pass the bill. That turned out to be in a lame duck session when he had what the Republicans would trade anything for: a temporary continuation of the Bush tax cuts. He marshaled the testimony of the authorities that might change the minds of a few waverers at that time, although I personally think the tax deal was what did it. It’s not like DADT repeal was something congress was champing at the bit to pass.
This stuff isn’t 11 dimensional chess. It’s checkers. When you’ve got a really tough negotiation to make, you pick your moment.
shortstop
I don’t really care either way about crocs and socks. I just want women to stop wearing capris with ankle socks. And your partner is cute as hell. Let him check THAT. ;)
tam1MI
This might be the proverbial break in the dam
Actually, in an odd way, I think it was the passage of Prop 8 in California that did the trick. There were so many people who were so certain that it was going to be defeated easily, that they didn’t need to work for it, it was just going to happen because the arc of history just happens. When Prop 8 passed, it was the shock of reality that got them to get off their asses and work.
Eventually, this will go to the USSC, which will strike down those bans.
This is exactly the sort of smug certitude that let Prop 8 go on the books. What exactly about rightward-leaning composition of the Roberts court leads you to believe that such will happen? What civil rights have they upheld or expanded?
A little over a hundred years ago, black people and their advocates were also absolutely certain that segregation would be struck down as soon as they got a case before the Supreme Court. It was just so obvious. So right. The dam had cracked, the tipping point had been reached, they were WINNING. WINNING. What could possibly go wrong?
Go llok up PLESSY V. FERGUSON to see exactly what went wrong and allowed segregation to stay in place for another half century.
They are bragging that they don’t need repeal of Roe v Wade to accomplish the same goal.
They are right. PLANNED PARENTHOOD V. CASEY – the PLESSY V. FERGUSON of the modern age – has opened the way for them to roll back women’s rights to the Dark Ages. I’m glad that gays have taken another step on the road to equality, but at the same time I can’t ignore that women – after all the struggle, all the sacrifices – are being put to rout and their rights trampled on more every day.
Nothing is certain. Don’t get cocky.
Comrade Mary
@ Hugh That was a great story, your daughter is glorious, and I will not jump on Neal for crocs-in-socks. Not just because he seems like an incredibly awesome guy, feet be damned, but because he’s originally from Guyana. My extended in-laws are from Guyana, and they are one kick-ass bunch. (Also loving but disciplined parents: that really is a Guyanese(1) thing.)
(1) Originally typoed as “Gayanese”.
Corner Stone
@Frankendouchebeck
No, I absolutely do not think that. But it’s very fucking odd how diehard Obots go way out of their way to claim credit for victories, yet disavow any of the stalled actions.
AxelFoley himself used the word “made”. Obama “made” somebody do something.
If your panties are bunched then I suggest, kindly, you go fucking take it up with him.
Corner Stone
And The Deal to extend the Bush Tax Cuts was a horrible fucking mistake.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
@153 Corner Stone
But I’ve been told here that this is just supersmart “Chicago Style” politics. If you can’t get the whole bowel movement, you take a shit sandwich. Also too, I find your lack of faith is disturbing.
.
.
Corner Stone
Uncle Clarence Thomas, I know you have a deep understanding of bipartisan negotiations. And with your stature you seem to be a natural choice to ask this question.
Why would any Democratic president agree to the terms outlined in the extension of the Bush Tax Cut Deal?
OzoneR
Too bad you didn’t know me because I said that very thing every damn day.
Don
Fixed.