Controlling the message

I’m not at Netroots Nation this year, so I have to rely on reports to have an idea of what the largest gathering ever of self-described ‘progressive bloggers’ is trying to accomplish. A review of news reports indicates that the gathering is a depressing assembly dedicated to fist shaking and expressions of impotent rage.

The take-away from these reports is that the left should be demoralized, frustrated, filled with rage and a real sense of betrayal–especially when it comes to President Obama and Democrats holding any elective office. Naturally this “Democrats is disarray” meme is irresistible candy for the political press and media outlets:

ABC leads with: Fear & Loathing In Minneapolis: Progressives Vent Frustration With Obama At Netroots Nation.

The WSJ joyfully jumped in with: At Netroots Nation, Progressives Decry Obama Policies.

NPR is going with: Liberal Bloggers: Obama ‘Not Our Boyfriend Anymore’.

Huffington Post is breathless with excitement as their page screams: IT’S OVER. Progressives ‘Break Up’ With Obama.

Politico celebrates with: Liberals’ frustration on display at Netroots.

Joel Connelly of the Seattle PI reported that: Liberals have no love for Obama.

TPM gives this tired old meme its due with: Progressives Still Fighting Obama, Democrats At Netroots 2011.

And Dave Weigle offered: Netroots Nation: The Sadness of Crowds.

There were many more examples and new stories celebrating the meme are being filed every hour. And I’m not even linking to the predictable examples of this “Manic Progressive” meme from FDL or the auto-outrage Diarists over at Big Orange.

I’ve been to Netroots Nation before and I know that there is far more to the event than these reports hyping “Angry Left” and “Democrats is disarray” memes seem to suggest. A lot of great discussions are being had, connections are being made and some real organizing for future victories is being done. But these reality based stories of the conference will not be how Netroots Nation is described to folks beyond the walls of the convention center. Control of that message has been surrendered.

By Sunday, the “Manic Progressives” meme will be one of the non-stories in competition to replace Weinergate as the side show du jour. This notion that Right and Left both hate Obama in equal measure will help to keep any discussion or review of the madness of the Republican Confederate Party and Wingnutopia policies off the front pages and away from the public. It will feed the both sides are extreme and therefore the same story line. It will make the never-ending series of hostage negotiations with the GOP a bit more difficult. It will do nothing to help progressives win a single victory. And yet, this “Manic Progressives” message will be the one that defines Netroots Nations for most people who hear anything about it. So it goes.

It would be nice if Netroots Nation was in control of their message, but they are not. From the news reports it seems to be a gathering of the Left stading in solidarity with the Right to shout to the rest of the Nation that Obama is destroying America.

And there were folks who said that the Right and Left could never agree on anything…

204 replies
  1. 1
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    That messaging is precisely what the corporate borgs want to relay: resistance is futile, “progressives”. Because even though Obama is borg-friendly, he’s not borg-friendly enough for the borg. So portraying the “progressives” as anti-Obama is in the interest of the borgs, and their Villager minions, who do what they’re told and are rewarded by being allowed to live at a higher level than the peasants.

    The MSM asshats will pick and choose the meme that is most borg favored, because they know that it’s their job to. No one needs to tell these drones.

  2. 2
    Keith says:

    Proposal: Remote coverage of Netroots Nation be subtitled “Far From The Sadding Crowd”

  3. 3
    shortstop says:

    What’s the over/under on how quickly this thread stops being about the media’s divide-and-conquer games and starts being about how Obama is worse than Bush?

  4. 4
    askew says:

    What is most frustrating about this is that these same progressives are the ones screaming about Democrats not controlling the message. Maybe after this experience at Netroots Nation, they’ll realize it isn’t so easy to control the media narrative.

    From what I’ve read about NN, there are about 2,000 people there and the best attended seminar was Jane Hamsher’s “I hate Obama” seminar. I tend to think that NN is becoming a fringe event. Even the caliber of speakers has gone down from years past.

  5. 5
    jazzgurl says:

    A whinge Fest supreme,I tell you. Poor them! One thing i know about progressive folks is that somehow you get a lift of positivity from them. This depressing,negative victim lot? Nah,not so much. These guys will vote against their best interests,and at the same time continue to be miserable when they finally get what they deserve…..oblivion ,when the repugs take over. Sad,SAD,SAD!
    Plus,the Dan tear up paper boy dram queen Choi is such a silly little attention whore! Hey Danny boy,why not go for broke and chain yourself to one of the teaparty/repug set and see if they can help your cause more efficiently!

  6. 6
    magurakurin says:

    Is that really true, 2000 people? A whole 2000? The White House must be trembling in their boots. Obama will be re-elected comfortably. The Pugs got nothing.

  7. 7
    Davis X. Machina says:

    From the news reports it seems to be a gathering of the Left stading in solidarity with the Right to shout to the rest of the Nation that Obama is destroying America.

    The truth of an assertion is an airtight affirmative defense against libel.

  8. 8
    Rhoda says:

    ITD. This is the message that Netroots Nation WANTS to get out about the President and the Progressive movement. You only have to check out the running summary of the way DailyKos is handling the Peiffer interview:

    White House communications director Dan Pfeiffer got a chilly reception Friday morning as he talked to the liberal members of the Netroots Nation conference.

    “I know there’s levels of frustration with some of the decisions that have happened in this White House,” Pfeiffer opened with. “I also know that beyond that, without a lot of the people in this room today, Barack Obama would not be president of the United States.”

    After introducing Pfeiffer to the “professional left” in the audience, moderator Kaili Joy Gray, a contributing editor at the liberal blog Daily Kos, peppered Pfeiffer with questions about a “jobs bill” Obama is unlikely to introduce, the administration’s record on “don’t ask, don’t tell” and the war in Libya.

    “What difference does it make whether we reelect him?” Gray asked.

    ****

    This was the choice they made, these are the headlines they want, this is the direction they’re going in. This is their message going into 2012. Because it worked out so well in 2010.

  9. 9
    Jeff Spender says:

    I consider myself progressive and I gotta say, I don’t know who these fucks think they are.

    Little whining bitches with hurt fee-fees. I used to think Choi was a hero, and now I think he’s just a nut-job.

    Gah!

  10. 10
    Poopyman says:

    Well, I am at NN, and of course the reality is far different. I suspect the msm is going with the Hamsher/Choi/Aravosis fail parade from yesterday, which I DID NOT attend.

    I can report that much drinking is being accomplished, and I suspect sex has broken out occasionally amongst the participants. And more better sessions are going on all the time. No, not the sex ones ….

    Gotta go. Engaging Progressives To Save Education is starting ….

  11. 11
    drkrick says:

    It may be worth noting that coverage out of CPAC tends to be of the freak show / bouncing Rush Limbaugh variety too, while coverage of whatever serious organizing and coalition building is going on is rare. Not exactly the same as the “Dems in Disarray” chestnut we’re getting from Minneapolis, but evidence of the same TMZization of the media on a somewhat nonpartisan basis.

  12. 12
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    At lest Bush only tortured mass murdering terrorists and not had them killed in cold blood!

    There you go Shortstop.

  13. 13
    cleek says:

    the permanently-enraged, and self-appointed Base is mad because they can’t get their way in all things? they’re mad that their cartoon version of how politics works doesn’t match with reality? the douchetards who can’t count to 60 and think they speak for all Dems are mad that the President hasn’t waved his magic wand and made the other 500+ members of the federal government do his bidding?

    shocking.

    Fuck Them.

  14. 14
    Paris says:

    That’s a lot of reaction to a conference that’s been in session for what, half a day yesterday? Those discouraged progressives sure are efficient.

  15. 15
    LB says:

    I find it interesting that one of the panelists at Hamsher’s session was an undocumented immigrant who complained that Obama administration wants his vote. Eh, they don’t. He can’t vote.

  16. 16
    AlphaLiberal says:

    From the news reports it seems to be a gathering of the Left stading in solidarity with the Right to shout to the rest of the Nation that Obama is destroying America.

    Bullshit. Histrionic bullshit. I am damn sick and tired of being told that, as an Obama supporter, the only thing I can do is applaud and declare how wonderful is our leader.

    Obama is turning his back on the unemployed to join in with Republicans in the deficit hysteria. No way I applaud that. It is bad and immoral policy and bad politics. You can jump off the cliff with him if you want to, I choose not to.

  17. 17
    burnspbesq says:

    @ lb:

    “I find it interesting that one of the panelists at Hamsher’s session was an undocumented immigrant who complained that Obama administration wants his vote. Eh, they don’t. He can’t vote.”

    Undocs have a much bigger problem than that. Yesterday, the Fifth Circuit ruled that undocs are not “people” for purposes of the Second Amendment, so their right to keep and bear arms can be infringed by da ebil Gubmint.

    No, I am not making this up.

  18. 18
    NobodySpecial says:

    Well, I see the valiant centrists have their talking points lined up…

  19. 19
    Culture of Truth says:

    It will feed the both sides are extreme and therefore the same story line.

    If true, in a way that will help Obama, since the media love anything they can describe as being hated by extremists of both sides…

  20. 20
    Nellcote says:

    So what’s NN doing to elect a better congress?

  21. 21
    4jkb4ia says:

    And although EW justifiably criticizes the national Democrats for not taking their opportunities to talk about the economy and jobs, there will be panels about the economy and jobs and worker-demonizing rhetoric, the one EW will be on, at this thing and they will be ignored. Pfeiffer will be the story today.

  22. 22
    eemom says:

    Dear Lord. FUCK these people.

    Imagine the headline: Conservatives Vent Frustration With Bush at C-PAC.

    What, you can’t?

    Fuck.

  23. 23
    Cain says:

    I suppose people would attend Hamsher’s seminar on the Obama fail. After all, it’s likely the most entertaining of the bunch. I mean who can resist Hamster trolling the entire NN? I’m not sure I wouldn’t have attended simply for the popcorn munching entertainment I might hear.

    So I can’t really say that people attending the seminar was there because they hate Obama. That said, the people organizing the talk with the White House communications guy are a bunch of drama queens.

    Incidentally, my fee fees are not hurt by Obama, and while I’m definitely not happy with the whole torture thing, I am happy with the domestic policies he was able to accomplish with a shitty Congress. Which is why I donated to the Obama campaign and again re-established volunteering with them. But this time, I’m going to help on messaging. Pay to play folks. Time to stop whining on blogs, and in conference and start letting your voice be heard as a volunteer to the campaign.

  24. 24
    Observer says:

    I don’t know about what’s going at NN and I don’t know what’s going at Tea Party meetings and I don’t know what’s going on at media editorial offices.

    But I do know that unemployment is over 9%, been that way for almost 2 years now and the focus in the White House is not on that but on something entirely else. So regardless of who is currently residing in the House, the POTUS would be to blame for this.

    A thousand media stories about the emotional state of mind of a thousand bloggers isn’t going to change that sad fact. Out in the real world today, that’s what people care about.

    Someone’s going to have pay for this at some point, it’s up to you folks to decide who or you can let the POTUS decide for you. If you want to write about how HuffPost is spinning NN that’s all fine and good but those stories don’t change the dynamic when unemployment is at 9%.

  25. 25
    Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory says:

    The Netroots Nation/DKos/FDL/HuffPo crowd is utterly irrelvant, save to the media. All that this few thousand permanently disgruntled useful idiots can do is whine. Loudly.

    The sooner that folks who are serious about politics and moving the nation in a more liberal direction realize that, the better. Making plans and alliances with people who have no intention of doing anything that would take them actual money, time, or effort is a fool’s enterprise.

  26. 26
    askew says:

    “What difference does it make whether we reelect him?” Gray asked. This was the choice they made, these are the headlines they want, this is the direction they’re going in. This is their message going into 2012. Because it worked out so well in 2010.

    Sigh. Can’t say I am surprised. DK has been following down the path of FDL for a long time now. What I have problems understanding is that the views shared by DK and FDL are shared by maybe 15% of the Democratic party. That leaves 85% of the party’s views not represented by the netroots. You’d think that someone would capitalize on that audience and start building a DK alternative that actually represents the Democratic Party and works with the party to achieve goals.

  27. 27
    eemom says:

    on the lighter side…..imagine how pumped up with righteous monotony little Joe Beesie must be today.

    At least we don’t have to listen to THAT anymore.

  28. 28
    Rhoda says:

    Obama is turning his back on the unemployed to join in with Republicans in the deficit hysteria. No way I applaud that. It is bad and immoral policy and bad politics. You can jump off the cliff with him if you want to, I choose not to.

    @AplhaLiberal: The President in 2010 pushed for the House to change the tax code and kill the Bush tax cuts for those over 200k. He wanted in 2009 and 2010 for the House and senate to pass legislation creating an infrastructure bank. He pushed for a myraid of job bills.

    In the lame duck he protected unemployment benefits and kept the tax cuts and had to keep those for the rich b/c Democrats were unwilling to vote on this when they held the purse strings.

    Similarly, he passed a stimulus that saved this country and rather than defend it Democrats joined with Republicans in attacking it. Despite the fact they attacked from the left; they reinforced the meme that stimulus sucked and this was the message going forward. Throughout ’09 and ’10 liberals have echoed and reinforced the Republican attacks on this president and no where is this as clear than on health care. A majority oppose reform and this is always reported; but a large number wanted health care to go farther. This number doesn’t matter because the lack of support is what is advertised. IMO, this comes from progressives that get their news from progressives outlets that regurgitate progressive talking points and in polling disapprove of POTUS policies. They’ll vote for him; but they’re angry. They’re also a minority.

    The fact of the matter is with a Republican house; nothing good can happen. That makes 2012 vital across the board. Rather than amplify the importance of the election; we’ve got them saying “why vote for Obama again?”

    This is nuts.

    Jobs, gay rights, civil rights, tax reform…whatever it is it won’t be done without a Democratic House, keeping the senate, and the President re-elected.

    That should be the focus of Netroots. That and amplifying the dangers Republicans pose to social security and medicare. Not how bad Obama is and how much is he like Bush.

    The President has made real mistakes; but he’s not turning his back on the unemployed. That is bullshit.

  29. 29
    cleek says:

    Obama is turning his back on the unemployed to join in with Republicans in the deficit hysteria.

    just for fun…

    what can the President do about “jobs” which doesn’t involve passing impossible-to-pass spending bills through congress ?

  30. 30
    eemom says:

    also too, it’s a good thing I’m not there. I would totally be firing spitballs at Hamsher.

  31. 31
    NobodySpecial says:

    What I have problems understanding is that the views shared by DK and FDL are shared by maybe 15% of the Democratic party.

    This should be interesting. Which views are shared, askew?

  32. 32
    chopper says:

    @Nellcote:

    bitching?

  33. 33
    chopper says:

    @cleek:

    ah, but you’re forgetting obama’s secret weapon: the bully pulpit!

  34. 34
    Rhoda says:

    But I do know that unemployment is over 9%, been that way for almost 2 years now and the focus in the White House is not on that but on something entirely else. So regardless of who is currently residing in the House, the POTUS would be to blame for this.

    @Observer: POTUS isn’t being blamed for this; Bush is. And that is going to be the re-elect message. Republicans want to destroy Medicare as you know it, cut taxes for the rich, and continue the economic policies that got us here. It isn’t the best way to go into a re-elect but it is true which helps. In addition, 2010 was a backlash election and in key battleground states people are living with Republican rule and hate it. This helps POTUS in his re-elect because the Republican nominee will be tied to Scott, Kasich, Walker, Christie etc etc.

    The President isn’t running against Congress right now because he needs to do a deal on the budget and the debt limit; but he will be running against Congress in 2012 and it’s clear as day. Which is why House Republicans are desperate to use the debt ceiling for cover on their Medicare fiasco. They won’t get it.

    The campaign hasn’t started yet for Obama; but he will hammer away at a Republican house and Republican policies in 2012. I’m pretty sure of that.

  35. 35
    ChrisNYC says:

    I watched the Pfeiffer interview and thought it was embarrassing for both the questioner and him. Questioner came off as way condescending and smug, in what may have been an attempt to be tough. Lots of “Oh, really?”s and rueful laughter. He seemed too conciliatory, to me, and came off gladhanding. I imagine the super angry people got what they want — more fuel for the fire. This will be the story today.

  36. 36
    les says:

    what can the President do about “jobs” which doesn’t involve passing impossible-to-pass spending bills through congress ?

    Can I be first??? BULLY PULPIT!1!

  37. 37
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Rhoda: Obama will win with at least 400 EV in 2012. The only question is how big his coattails are.

  38. 38
  39. 39
    WereBear says:

    President Obama is gearing up. He’s looking for web professionals, database folks, anyone and everyone with a skill applicable to a campaign can possibly move to ChiTown and get to work.

    Anyone unemployed with campaign skills of any kind please check it out; I got the email offer because when I signed up back when I was in the category, but I can’t move to Chicago. So my job is free to someone else. :)

    Without a primary battle he will be free to kick some arse. Looking forward to it.

  40. 40
    Thoughtcrime says:

    eemom – June 17, 2011 | 11:57 am · Link

    also too, it’s a good thing I’m not there. I would totally be firing spitballs at Hamsher.

    You could take notes with one of these:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omeFEJ8jD9o

  41. 41
    Rhoda says:

    @NobodySpecial: I think he has 273 he could likely count on and his clearest path is WA, OR, CA, CO, HI, MN, WI, IL, MI, OH, PA, ME, NH, VT, MA, RI, CT, NJ, DE, MD, DC.

  42. 42
    comrade scott's agenda of rage says:

    I have lotsa friends at NN and as the person above who’s attending said, what you’re getting thru the traditional media filter is based solely on the wailings of Calamity Jane’s session. My favorite quote from that thus far:

    Jane Hamsher? She is out to trash the president to make money…WTF.. She is not credible.

    And of course since she’s on a few Beltway rolodexes now and has the story (“The President is Teh Sukzez”) the traditional media stenographers love to promote (“DISSENTION AMONGST THE LEFT!!!!!!”), she get’s to set the storyline to a certain extent.

    Remember, it’s always about finally earning a living at something after a lifetime of failure in Calamity Jane’s Firebagger world.

    And what a lot of people still fail to understand is that most of the Wrecks List regulars at Teh Orange are firebaggers. They deliberately post at GOS because they get the kind of blog exposure they’ll never get at FDL

  43. 43
    Nellcote says:

    Speaking of BullyPulpit, was anyone else outraged when all the media switched away from Pelosi’s presser yesterday when she wouldn’t talk about Weiner? They have their narrative, you either fit it or you don’t.

  44. 44
    WereBear says:

    @Nelcote: Exactly. That’s the kind of thing that should be the talk of NN, now and after… but it won’t be.

    What I came to realize is that there’s people who just complain. About everything. The food is terrible and such small portions.

    These people were camouflaged during the Bush years because anyone is their right mind started complaining as time went on. We get a rather diametrically different President… and they still complain. It’s What They Do.

  45. 45
    askew says:
    What I have problems understanding is that the views shared by DK and FDL are shared by maybe 15% of the Democratic party.

    This should be interesting. Which views are shared, askew?

    That Obama sucks. That is the their entire platform. Obama sucks and everything is his fault.

  46. 46
    Midnight Marauder says:

    How is this year’s Netroots Nation not just one big advertisement for NANCY SMASH 2012: ROUND II?

    These people are not serious. Not in the slightest.

  47. 47
    shortstop says:

    what can the President do about “jobs” which doesn’t involve passing impossible-to-pass spending bills through congress ?

    Can I be first??? BULLY PULPIT

    And let’s not forget the pearl some shrieking moron dropped the other day: “He’s the most powerful man in the world! I expect him to come up with solutions!”

  48. 48
    OzoneR says:

    was anyone else outraged when all the media switched away from Pelosi’s presser yesterday when she wouldn’t talk about Weiner? T

    TPM was, but commenters were blaming her. They would have paid attention to her message on jobs, they say, if she didn’t force Weiner to resign.

  49. 49
    Ron says:

    These people piss me off. “What difference does it make?” seriously? I saw Dan Choi was swearing that unless Obama supported marriage equality, he wasn’t going to support him. Enjoy 4 years of President Romney, “progressives”

  50. 50
    JenJen says:

    @eemom

    also too, it’s a good thing I’m not there. I would totally be firing spitballs at Hamsher.

    I’d be right behind you, re-loading your straw.

  51. 51
    WereBear says:

    shortstop: And let’s not forget the pearl some shrieking moron dropped the other day: “He’s the most powerful man in the world! I expect him to come up with solutions!”

    OMG :) That’s going to make me chuckle all day.

  52. 52
    OzoneR says:

    How is this year’s Netroots Nation not just one big advertisement for NANCY SMASH 2012: ROUND II?
    These people are not serious. Not in the slightest.

    They’re not progressives, they’re anti-establishment. They don’t care about progressive issues, they care about taking on “the establishment”

    And not because they criticize Obama, but because they’d rather do that than organize for progressive causes (as told by the anemic turnout at the Wisconsin panels at NN)

    These are the people who still hold a grudge cause the cool kids wouldn’t let them sit at their table in junior high school, and Obama is the fellow loner who was caught talking to one of the cool kids at the hallway and now can never be trusted again.

  53. 53
    lacp says:

    Well, now I know more than I ever wanted to know about what’s going on at NN. And, no, I’m not going to thank anybody for it.

  54. 54
    Yutsano says:

    I think he has 273 he could likely count on and his clearest path is WA, OR, CA, CO, HI, MN, WI, IL, MI, OH, PA, ME, NH, VT, MA, RI, CT, NJ, DE, MD, DC.

    One correction: you left out New York. Which could replace Ohio as an even safer state for him. Not that he shouldn’t campaign there mind you.

  55. 55
    cat48 says:

    Geez, I hope Kay’s excellent blog posts do not turn into OBAMA HATE & FAIL Posts. Hopefully, she will resist the Indoctrination of NN.

  56. 56
    shortstop says:

    Cheer up, lacp. Maybe the attendees of kay’s meet-and-greet will get cheerfully trashed and post a transcript here.

  57. 57
    beergoggles says:

    Wow, all u guys sound so hysterical and shrill.. u need to turn it down a notch.

  58. 58

    @WereBear: We get a rather diametrically different President… and they still complain. It’s What They Do.

    As a former Naderite, I’d like to concur. The thing about being a True Progressive™ is that nothing is ever good enough. Republican in the White House? Fascist. Democrat in the White House? Corporatist. Socialist in the Senate? Powerless.

    Since you’re holding out ’til the Revolution comes, you can decry any incremental reforms as compromised, as too little. It’s comforting, in an unsatisfied, Eeyore sort of way.

  59. 59
    slag says:

    They’re not progressives, they’re anti-establishment. They don’t care about progressive issues, they care about taking on “the establishment”
    __
    And not because they criticize Obama, but because they’d rather do that than organize for progressive causes (as told by the anemic turnout at the Wisconsin panels at NN)

    Hard to disagree with this assessment. But sadly, I think this assessment characterizes many of us on the left. The cult of personality seems to have ensnared more than just a few.

  60. 60

    One thing I never tire of complaining about: the spam filter that trips on the word so ci al is t.

  61. 61

    Personally, I just decided to post several positive stories about NN11 on my blog based on reports from those who aren’t part of the whinefest. Try to tip the scale. If us left bloggers who aren’t clouded by hatred, jealousy, narcissism or racism write positively and frequently, Google will pick up the stories and we can change the headlines…at least on the internet. The MSM is hopeless, I’m afraid. Hamsher, Markos, Walsh, Aravosis and the rest of the faux left will dominate that reporting I’m sure. I’m glad nobody listens to those blowhards, except for their deluded followers.

  62. 62

    I thought about going this year to NN11, but I’m sure I would have been the guy heckling those assholes, getting dragged out…”don’t taze me bro”!

  63. 63
    mcd410x says:

    U6 here in/around Tampa is around 20%. Why would people be angry?

  64. 64
    Suffern ACE says:

    @slag: Problem is, if they won’t organize, what makes them think that people will ever view them as replacements for the establishment? Anti-up all they want against the corrupt powers that be (and indeed they are corrupt), but I’m guessing they’re just resigned to always losing to that establishment. Sad really.

  65. 65
    OzoneR says:

    U6 here in/around Tampa is around 20%. Why would people be angry?

    I could see how that would make people upset the President isn’t doing enough to legalize same-sex marriage

  66. 66
    OzoneR says:

    But sadly, I think this assessment characterizes many of us on the left. The cult of personality seems to have ensnared more than just a few.

    Maybe so, but not me, I know that in order to get what I want to get done, done, the establishment is how we have to do it, we need to make ourselves part of it.

    Then again, I was invited to the cool kids table in junior high school.

  67. 67
    gnomedad says:

    Republicans doing stupid or evil stuff = Dog Bites Man.
    Democratic “dissension” or Dem tweets his junk = News!

  68. 68
    negative 1 says:

    What irks me about the Hamshers of the world is the insistence that all Obama had to do was “wage war on Wall St.”, “ram through more stimulus spending” and “fight for single payer” and immediately the press would have gotten behind him, parades would have been thrown in his honor and the republicans would have recoiled in horror, assumed their hideous true form and flow away into the night.
    The press are owned by corporations and hence protect corporate interests. Always. There is as great a chance that had he attempted these things the headlines would have been “he’s trying too hard! He’s over his head!” and his approval rating would have been in the low 30% right out of the gate, with other party members fleeing as if he had leprosy and he was looking for a hug. You don’t think that political pollsters have any idea how to generate positive coverage, but a person commenting on a blog does? It’s no better than the overweight 54 year old commenting on how HE would have thrown the ball if he were the quarterback.
    Still, “if he fought everyone would love him” carries the day. But just for fun, ask how much they’ve donated over the years to get democrats elected. When they tell you about the $5 they donated to a candidate back in 1967, don’t wonder why no elected official wages war on the establishment.

  69. 69
    amk says:

    Buncha political hasbeens. 2006 was their peak.

  70. 70
    slag says:

    Anti-up all they want against the corrupt powers that be (and indeed they are corrupt), but I’m guessing they’re just resigned to always losing to that establishment. Sad really.

    I think this is true. Paradoxically, anti-establishment is its own kind of establishment. Just not a very useful kind, from what I can tell.

  71. 71
    mk3872 says:

    No, this actually is very similar on the Left & the Right.

    The Progressive Activists threw their weight behind Obama and Obama ran with it.

    Problem is, he’s not really very progressive. He is very middle-of-the-road moderate. Which is just fine by me.

    Just like the Tea Party activists that will rally around the Republican candidate, they, too, will feel shunned when their candidate du jour does not end up as the savior of all things conservatives when in the WH.

    This is just the nature of being in the WH.

    Activists (on all sides) are childish by nature. That won’t change.

  72. 72
    Elie says:

    OzoneR @ 52 —

    You are absolutely right on. Unfortunately, too many of them identify as Democrats instead of Libertarians where they could go rain on the Republican meet ups.

    Yes, unemploymnet is at 9%. There is no easy fix but an ugly fix of shrinking things down. We had a bubble economy for over 8 years and its been two years since the contraction began. We are for certain hurting (me included, out of work), but do you think that Romney or one of the bone heads that brought the bubble into being is going to fix anything? Or even be honest about it?

    Time to grow up in the United States. We are still whining, though I will allow, not as badly as the Greeks who have to be the most ridiculous, having made their disaster but now unwilling to pay for it.

  73. 73
    Elie says:

    BTW, what happened to the “Reply” button on comments? Its disappeared on this comment thread for me…

  74. 74
    shortstop says:

    Anti-up all they want against the corrupt powers that be (and indeed they are corrupt), but I’m guessing they’re just resigned to always losing to that establishment.

    Not just resigned to it, I think, but joyfully embracing it; it’s actually their desired outcome. There are one or two commenters here who, it’s clear by now, would see a wholesale adoption of their viewpoints as unwelcome evidence that they’re not smarter, braver, nobler and more principled than everyone else in the room. They see always losing as a badge of honor and so, on the occasions when they do get what they say they want, they immediately move the goalposts. Kind of hard to have a useful conversation with that.

  75. 75
    Taylor says:

    Obama made a decision to put his lot in with the Wall Street paymasters. The plan has all along been to re-inflate the bubble and return to the 1990s. There is no way you can defend HAMP, which was all about screwing homeowners to protect the banks. Now the rentiers are telling him to reign in the deficit to protect their asset values.

    Today Michele fucking Bachman can crow about how she voted against TARP twice. Imagine that message delivered by a GOP VP nominee.

    I would not be as smug as some of the Obama supporters on this thread sound. November 2012 is a long way away.

  76. 76
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Elie-I believe the answer is, John took the blog apart and couldn’t figure out how to put it back together. He’s got a few parts on the kitchen table that don’t fit anywhere, but is a little ashamed to take it into the repair shop where he knows the owners, and knows that they will “tsk tsk”.

  77. 77
    piratedan says:

    well I guess its easy enough to point and laugh at the folks that are passionate enough to want more and expect more of our President. Naturally the press loves the dissent angle, anything that will garner them a few more clicks for their advertisers is more than okay by them and if what they report isn’t wholly representative of what is actually going on, well hey, since when have they had to play fair?

    The problem I have with the snarkfest currently engaged in here, is that these are the folks that usually end up being the backbone of the ground game in any political process. I don’t know how many of you actually work for and are involved in your local politics and I really think that the biggest discussion that should be going on over at Netroots is how to take back the statehouses. Based on what I’ve seen reported on this blog and other places of import (TRMS for one) is the insanity that is taking place at the local level and how we need to find and support people who aren’t outright loons deciding what laws to pass and create at the local and state level is of paramount importance.

    I can be enough of a pragmatist to understand why Obama hasn’t come through on all of the agenda items of my progressive dreams. He’s had to fight a media that is actually disinterested in truthfully representing the problems in America and an inspired (and well funded) political opposition that only cares to unseat him and damn anything and anyone that stands in their way of doing so. So I can understand why I didn’t get a pony. Doesn’t mean I still don’t want one and I am willing to work again on the phones to try and get one.

  78. 78
    sparky says:

    unfortunately, most of the people on this thread seem to be more interested in smugness and sticking with the team than considering the question of where the team is going.

    i, for one, would never say there is no difference between Bush and Obama. there is, but it is mostly on the margins. under Obama, Wall St and the National Security State call ALL the shots, just as they did under Bush. and the people here can point at the Congressional numbers all they want, but that says nothing about what Obama could be doing. a President may not be able to get certain things passed, but it is unclear to me why a sitting President apparently has no control of his bully pulpit.

    oh, and how’s that “repeal” of don’t ask don’t tell going?

    edit: what pirate dan said @ 77, also, too.

  79. 79
    Lol says:

    @71: the Netroots never embraced Obama. They’ve derided him ever since he took office in 2004, lined up for Edwards in the primary, and only jumped on the bandwagon because he wasn’t a Clinton. Once he was the nominee, support was still given begrudgingly with no end of second guessing his campaign. Then after he won, the whining started before he was even sworn in. They’re the 10% of liberal Democrats who disapproved of him when he took office. He can’t lose what he never ever had.

  80. 80
    slag says:

    No, this actually is very similar on the Left & the Right.
    __
    The Progressive Activists threw their weight behind Obama and Obama ran with it.
    __
    Problem is, he’s not really very progressive. He is very middle-of-the-road moderate. Which is just fine by me.

    It didn’t occur to me that the right was part of this conversation. But since you brought it up, I disagree with you. The right is far far far worse. The Tea Party loves GW Bush. Sarah Palin is their beauty queen. That’s the epitome of cult of personality.

    And whether Obama is a crazy lefty or middle of the road is irrelevant as well. He recognizes his limitations in Congress, and that’s how he designs his policy initiatives. Consequently, personal preferences are going to end up far lower on the priority list. Personally, I think–as President–he’s become too cautious and accommodating (in relation to his campaign). But no amount of my complaining about it is going to change that. So, ginning up a whinefest on those grounds would not only make me look childish, it would be counterproductive.

  81. 81
    Cain says:

    @Rhoda

    The President has made real mistakes; but he’s not turning his back on the unemployed. That is bullshit.

    This. People need to get a grip. The president only has so much power.. he cannot conjure up a job bill. You want to fix jobs, you need to fix the house. Maybe if more democratic folks started goign to town hall and questioning conservative house members about their plans things might be better.

  82. 82
    jnfr says:

    I know I was pretty shocked, during the ’08 election cycle, by my leftie friends who spoke about Obama like he was the Second Coming of Jebus. They’re the same ones today who are broken-hearted and hating Obama so much that they’re threatening to vote Republican for funsies this time.

    It’s crazy. It was always clear to me that Obama was a centrist technocratic type, and no raging leftie. I am a raging leftie, and Obama was never out here among us socia1ists. In fact, to my eye he was the least progressive of the three main contenders for the Dem nomination, though still way ahead of Crazy McGrandpa and his Caribou sidekick.

    I remain boggled.

  83. 83

    Here is the first positive story I just wrote about NN11 and the President. I love google, by the way.
    http://tinyurl.com/3wkznka

  84. 84
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @jnfr.

    Howard Dean in 2004 was Obama-avant le lettre. I knew of him from yonks ago — the world of northern New England Democratic politics isn’t that large — and I never thought of him as exactly Smolny Institute material, but that’s how it went down.

    It’s a mystery how these things start…

  85. 85
    Mnemosyne says:

    oh, and how’s that “repeal” of don’t ask don’t tell going?

    It’s going very well. Sec. Gates plans to certify the full repeal before he retires at the end of the month. Thanks for asking.

  86. 86
    slag says:

    @
    Nice list! There are obviously shades of gray in there, and it is debatable whether or not, had different decisions been made at certain points, that list could have been much stronger (if not broader, then deeper). But overall, it’s a good list.

  87. 87
    cleek says:

    oh, and how’s that “repeal” of don’t ask don’t tell going?

    it’s going a fucking hell of a lot better than it would be under the alternatives to Obama, who all want to bring it fully back.

    the difference is “only at the margins”. right.

    but it is unclear to me why a sitting President apparently has no control of his bully pulpit.

    WTF?

  88. 88
    catclub says:

    Obama is simply more patient, and takes a much longer view, than anyone else in the public sphere.

    Applies even more so in comparison to bloggers and pundits.

    Don’t know how he does it.

  89. 89
    Cain says:

    @cleek

    he lost credibility when he said “control of his bully pulpit”. WTF. The guy gets one TV all the damn time. It’s not his fault they don’t watch the damn tv. When they say bully pulpit they want some kind of “American President” hollywood type thing with all the dramatics. It’s all bullshit.

    You want to help.. get involved with the Obama campaign and then push it through the channels. (

  90. 90
    Davis X. Machina says:

    There is no bully pulpit, except for the selling of things people already want and like.

    If there is one for selling unpopular policies, it operates at the margins, in those cases where political science has been able to locate it at all.

  91. 91
    dogwood says:

    Hating Barack Obama is a billion dollar industry on the right and a pretty lucrative cottage industry on the left, nothing more, nothing less. But one thing for sure, it’s a great jobs program for grifters. I’ve never understood why I’m supposed to take the professional left seriously. These are the people who told me they voted for Nader in 2000 out of principle because Gore was no different than Bush, yet longed for Gore to get into the race in 2007-08 because we needed a true progressive in the Democratic primaries. They think I’m stupid. It’s all too Orwellian for me.

  92. 92
    OzoneR says:

    There is no way you can defend HAMP, which was all about screwing homeowners to protect the banks. Now the rentiers are telling him to reign in the deficit to protect their asset values.

    His original plan for foreclosures, called “cramdown,” which progressive embraced, was rejected by the Senate. HAMP was a backup plan.

  93. 93
    OzoneR says:

    but it is unclear to me why a sitting President apparently has no control of his bully pulpit.

    Because he can’t control something he does not have.

  94. 94
    OzoneR says:

    well I guess its easy enough to point and laugh at the folks that are passionate enough to want more and expect more of our President.

    they don’t want or expect more, they just want to bitch, they are not serious.

  95. 95
    OzoneR says:

    well I guess its easy enough to point and laugh at the folks that are passionate enough to want more and expect more of our President.

    they don’t want or expect more, they just want to bitch, they are not serious.

  96. 96
    Elie says:

    Thanks suffern@76! You make me smile at the vision of John at the kitchen table…

  97. 97
    Frankensteinbeck says:

    I am heartened to hear that despite the media’s love of pretending Hamsher is The Base, NN is mostly positive about Obama and working on getting him reelected.

    As for the discussion of the bully pulpit and Obama’s priorities, did anyone know he gave a speech about the need for a job’s bill this week?

  98. 98
    Trakker says:

    The best way you can describe me is: “I’m deeply disappointed with Obama, but I loath the Republicans.” I wish that was the message going out at NN.

    I won’t be voting for Obama in 2012. I can’t. Yes, I know the consequences, but Obama doesn’t deserve 4 more years. A President get’s his agenda passed by engaging and energizing his base. He did that superbly when he was campaigning, but once elected he intentionally pulled the plug on us partly because lefties are anathema to the MSM and independent voters. And what happened? We got the 2010 fiasco, and we’ve all seen what all those newly elected Republicans in the Midwest are doing to workers, and now all those Republican majorities get to control redistricting.

    I have no problem with those who still support him and believe in him. You see something I don’t. Or I see something that you don’t. But I’m sure we all agree on how loathsome today’s Republicans are.

  99. 99
    OzoneR says:

    A President get’s his agenda passed by engaging and energizing his base. He did that superbly when he was campaigning, but once elected he intentionally pulled the plug on us partly because lefties are anathema to the MSM and independent voters.

    Which would explain why he got so much of his agenda passed in two years?

    I have no problem with those who still support him and believe in him. You see something I don’t. Or I see something that you don’t. But I’m sure we all agree on how loathsome today’s Republicans are.

    Yes, except I’m not willing to let them control the country because Obama didn’t suck me off good enough.

    I like the Republicans more than I like you.

  100. 100
    jnfr says:

    But I’m sure we all agree on how loathsome today’s Republicans are.

    And yet you just can’t bring yourself to vote for Obama? You’re no better than the Republicans then.

  101. 101
    Elie says:

    Trakker:

    Why do you come here to post your bullshit.

    Okay. Your view is your view.

    We who support Obama do so more knowing that he has implemented many many good things that no way, no how would any republican in office gotten done. You know that too. But still you want to make sure, through your actions, that he is no longer in office so you can definitely get the republican solution to things? That will better meet your ideals?

    You must be mad…totally, totally MAD.

  102. 102
    OzoneR says:

    You must be mad…totally, totally MAD.

    You didn’t read what he said, he said it’s all about “energizing the base”

    Which means him. Trakker didn’t feel energized, therefore everyone must suffer. That seems to be an opinion of these so-called “netroots”

    Like I said, I like the Republicans more than them because at least they don’t PRETEND to care about others.

  103. 103
    Elie says:

    OzoneR —

    Its just like 2 year olds screaming “NO I won’t” to assert their developing egos. — and to bring attention to themselves, even if the attention is negative.

  104. 104
    shortstop says:

    But still you want to make sure, through your actions, that he is no longer in office so you can definitely get the republican solution to things?

    Well, no. Because when he votes for Obama, he helps elect him. But when he doesn’t vote for Obama, he doesn’t help elect a Republican. It’s super convenient to be able to turn one’s personal accountability button on and off at will!

  105. 105
    cleek says:

    He did that superbly when he was campaigning, but once elected he intentionally pulled the plug on us partly because lefties are anathema to the MSM and independent voters.

    what actually happened was that his rhetoric ran into the brick wall of Congress, specifically the Blue Dogs and the filibuster.

    Yes, I know the consequences, but Obama doesn’t deserve 4 more years.

    this really makes no sense.

    the kind of policy outcomes we can expect from a GOP admin are far worse than those we can expect under Obama. you even listed examples of the policies we could expect more of.

    but you’re willing to allow even more of those GOP policies because Obama wasn’t … what? he wasn’t magical enough to defeat the teabaggers ? wasn’t enough of a superhero to bend the Blue Dogs to his will?

    you hate GOP policies so much that you want to do your part to allow them to enact more. brilliant.

  106. 106
    Whiskey Screams from a Guy With No Short-Term Memory says:

    I won’t be voting for Obama in 2012. I can’t. Yes, I know the consequences, but Obama doesn’t deserve 4 more years.

    Trakker: I know you. Not personally, but I know you. You’re the kind of person who has public screaming fits if your latte isn’t made right. You’re the kind of person who beats his kids rather than parent them. You’re the kind of guy who sets his car on fire when it won’t start in the morning. You are an idiot and a living embodiment of everything that is wrong with our country, with the world, and with humanity.

  107. 107
    Huckster says:

    The best way you can describe me is: “I’m deeply disappointed with Obama, but I loath the Republicans.” I wish that was the message going out at NN.

    Can someone please save us from these people? At a certain point it goes beyond tedious. I used to think folk like trakker was a fellow traveler, but more and more I begin to realize that these people will continue to move the goalposts no matter what a Democratic President achieves. It’s so much more important to maintain some bullshit ethos of ideological purity than to search for and accept pragmatic incremental approaches.

  108. 108
    Mike Kay (True Grit) says:

    bunch of creepy hippie freaks

    90% of self described liberal Democrats approve of Obama, yet the firebaggers and PUMAs and assorted butt hurt loons still insist they’re the base. That’s so “realty” based community.

  109. 109
    Tony J says:

    Trakker is totally right.

    1) Don’t vote for Obama.

    2) ?????

    3) Victory!

    It was on TV that this strategy first achieved popularity, so it must be a good idea. Right?

  110. 110
    eemom says:

    You are an idiot and a living embodiment of everything that is wrong with our country, with the world, and with humanity.

    the extremer the hyperbole, the better I likes it. Because really, nothing is too good for these “I won’t vote for Obama” assclowns.

  111. 111
    eemom says:

    aw, Mikey, don’t encourage that “hippie” meme. These fucktards aren’t hippies. They’re a disgrace unto the memory of the 1960s. Abbie Hoffman must be rolling in his grave. (he IS dead, isn’t he?)

  112. 112
    FlipYrWhig says:

    It’s like having a Star Trek convention and having the best attended panel be about how Star Wars sucks.

  113. 113
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @ Trakker / 98:

    A President get’s his agenda passed by engaging and energizing his base.

    You’re not “the base,” you sanctimonious dipshit. You’re a niche. This is like conservatives trying to punish Bush for not going back on the gold standard. You don’t get to define yourself as “the base” just to pule and moan about how you’re being ignored. Maybe you’re being ignored because there aren’t enough people like you to make stroking you worthwhile.

  114. 114
    shortstop says:

    It’s like having a Star Trek convention and having the best attended panel be about how Star Wars sucks.

    Reason #1,431 why I love FlipYrWhig.

  115. 115
    Lydgate says:

    @FlipYrWhig:
    Rahm, is that you?

  116. 116
    dogwood says:

    Cleek – Why bother to respond to guys like Tracker? They don’t care about facts or the harsh realities of actually governing.

  117. 117
    NR says:

    People who tell other people to vote Democratic no matter what are idiots. Sorry to be so blunt, but there it is. And what you are selling, with your message of “Booga booga! Tea Party! Sarah Palin!” is weakness and impotency. Time and again, the left wing in this country has ceded ground and looked the other way as the Democrats have sold out the people, all in the name of defeating the greater evil.

    Well, guess what? We’re past that now. There is no greater evil than illegal wars, torture, drone bombings on innocent women and children, and screwing over the poor so that the Wall Street robber barons don’t have to give up their third mansions.

    Austerity? Now? Obama telling working people they have to “sacrifice?” After what Wall Street just did to the economy?

    Fuck Obama. And fuck anybody who expects me to help him win re-election. Why should I be on his side when he sure as hell isn’t on mine?

    And it’s time for progressives to stop listening to idiots who tell us to vote D no matter what. How’s that been working out? Progressives have been doing the lesser of two evils thing for a long time now, and the Democratic party has never been more sold-out, compromised, and worthless than it is right now.

    And I fully expect that this will be answered with cries of “You’re just mad that you didn’t get your pony!” Of course, that alone should tell you everything you need to know about the Obama brigade. They can’t tell the difference between demanding justice and relief for the people, and spoiled children wanting a pony.

    But hey, in their world of weakness and impotence, we should just be grateful for whatever scraps we’re given. Working Americans should just sit down, shut up, and thank their betters for only giving 95% of the store away to the plutocrats instead of 100%.

    Fuck that noise.

  118. 118
    Elie says:

    NR —

    Ok – don’t vote for Obama.

    Good choice!

    Stay home and sit on your assbrain.

    Your “solution” — wow, that will show ’em…that will make things better…

    Thankfully, just enough progressives are smart and sane enough to keep dicks like you marginalized. Go and write curse words on the privy wall. That is the level of your knowledge and ability to solve any real world issues — writting stupid shit that no one cares about.

  119. 119
    OzoneR says:

    Fuck Obama. And fuck anybody who expects me to help him win re-election. Why should I be on his side when he sure as hell isn’t on mine?

    Well fuck you. I’m glad he isn’t on your side. We need progressives, not selfish motherfuckers who want their cocks stroked so they feel important.

    You may say you support progressive things, but you are certainly not a progressive.

  120. 120
    NR says:

    Typical apologist behavior: Insult, belittle, do anything but talk about what actually matters to the vast majority of Americans.

    This is a young girl whose family was evicted from their home. They are now living in their car. Go ahead and call her an “assbrain.”

    This is what happened after another family was evicted from their home. Go ahead and tell them that they need their cocks stroked to feel important.

    Go on.

  121. 121
    stinkdaddy says:

    I see there are a few people here who’ve convinced themselves that Obama’s re-election is in the bag. It isn’t, but ff course there were plenty of people on here a year ago arguing that the midterms weren’t going to be that bad so there you go.

    It’s an interesting mindset: progressives are irrelevant because Obama’s re-election is already comfortably secured and liberals aren’t really the base and blah blah. Also, simultaneously, any progressive who dares to consider voting Green or abstaining from a presidential vote entirely might as well vote a straight GOP ticket because that person clearly wants to destroy the country and usher the Palinocracy.

    Some people think the votes of anyone left of center belong to the Democrats by default. Others say that the best way to get people who aren’t doing what you want to change their behavior is to give them your vote anyway and hope for the best. Both these positions sound nutso to me, but again, there you go.

    Dengre’s post btw is your typically amusing BJer take on this. This blog has spent several years now arguing about “manic progressive” PUMAs who think Obama is the worst President ever. Then when a series of articles comes out showing that NN is shaping up like a big hive of liberal discontent, we get a post about how people aren’t really that pissed at Obama after all and it’s really media spin and divide/conquer tactics. Little nervous that those progressives aren’t quite so irrelevant after all, or what?

  122. 122
    OzoneR says:

    Typical apologist behavior: Insult, belittle, do anything but talk about what actually matters to the vast majority of Americans.

    Oh please, you couldn’t give a shit about any of those people, because if you did, you wouldn’t be here bitching that no one is helping them, you’d actually be helping them, so don’t even bother to pretend, it’s insulting to them.

  123. 123
    NR says:

    Right. And Al Gore has a big house, so obviously he doesn’t care about the environment.

    You’re every bit as full of shit as the wingnuts who make the same argument.

    This is an American neighborhood. It was destroyed by a bipartisan consensus that allows corporations to use slave labor overseas while abandoning American workers at home.

    But the real problem is that random people on the internet aren’t doing enough to help. Right.

  124. 124
    OzoneR says:

    Right. And Al Gore has a big house, so obviously he doesn’t care about the environment.

    Al Gore has also actually DONE SHIT to help raise awareness about the environment.

    You, on the other hand, are useless. Throwing people pictures of places you’ve never even been to, and probably would never even set foot in, to pretend you actually give a shit, because it’s a good way to criticize the President who didn’t suck you right. Have you helped people in foreclosure find help? Have you wrote letters to the editor endorsing ways of fixing the foreclosure problem? Have you even ever heard of Cramdown and if you did, were you at your Senator’s local office asking him or her to vote for it?

    You couldn’t care less about those people, if you did, you’d help come up with a plan to help them and then push it like some of us are doing, instead of whining like a fucking crybaby about how Obama is failing them.

    Help, or get the fuck out of the way.

  125. 125
    NR says:

    You don’t know shit about who I am or what I’ve done, so shut the fuck up.

    And again, this is typical apologist behavior. Someone dares to talk about how the Democrats have fucked over the working class, turn around and attack them. They haven’t done enough. They don’t care. They’re just pissed that they didn’t get their pony.

    Anything but actually addressing the issues.

    It’s pathetic.

  126. 126
    Dennis G. says:

    shortstop, It did not take very long and most of the thread ignored the question of divide-and-conquer games entirely.

    mk3872, as I recall it most bloggers were late to the Obama bandwagon. Over at Daily Kos support for Edwards and Kuchinich was strong to the end and then there was that whole Puma thing that’s never really gone away. Of course, folks like to claim they were behind him to give their reprized attacks some tone of credibility. So it goes.

    FlipYrWhig, Brilliant. Well done.

  127. 127
    piratedan says:

    @124 NR

    so let’s elect a republican and get a national religion and turn women into chattel. The Dems may not have supported the working class as much as any of us would have liked, but at LEAST they’re not into making them serfs like the Republicans are. If you wanna pout on the sidelines, fine pout. If you want to make a difference, then you get involved and change things.

  128. 128
    Corner Stone says:

    You couldn’t care less about those people, if you did, you’d help come up with a plan to help them and then push it like some of us are doing

    Well Nick, what is your plan to help those people? What plan are you pushing to help them?

  129. 129
    Taylor says:

    There is no way you can defend HAMP, which was all about screwing homeowners to protect the banks.

    His original plan for foreclosures, called “cramdown,” which progressive embraced, was rejected by the Senate. HAMP was a backup plan.

    Pro Publica reports on a different story from Congressional Democrats:

    W]hen it came time to fight for the measure, he didn’t show up. Some Democrats now say his administration actually undermined it behind the scenes. “Their behavior did not well serve the country,” said Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-CA), who led House negotiations to enact the change, known as “cramdown.” It was “extremely disappointing.”

    HAMP was only about conning homeowners into staying in their homes until the bubble re-inflated. The administration has admitted as much.

    Obama has made the decision to ally himself with Geithner and the Wall Street paymasters. If anything, Obama and Geithner appear to be ideological soul mates.

    I would say that politically he is in a very dangerous position, vastly underestimating the fury that people may be feeling in 2012.

  130. 130
    NR says:

    so let’s elect a republican and get a national religion and turn women into chattel. The Dems may not have supported the working class as much as any of us would have liked, but at LEAST they’re not into making them serfs like the Republicans are.

    And this attitude is exactly why things will never get any better for the working class in this country.

    It’s all about leverage. The banks, the oil companies, the insurance companies, the defense contractors understand this. That’s why they donate to both parties. Because the cash gives them leverage. If a politician does something they don’t like, they can then use that leverage and withhold that cash to get what they want.

    Well, we progressives have leverage too. That leverage is our vote. But, we’re told we can’t use that leverage. Sarah Palin might win. And so what do we get? Ignored.

    Why should any Democrat take “The People’s Budget” seriously? What is going to happen if they don’t? Well, if you have your way, nothing.

    Why should the Democrats pass the Employee Free Choice Act? What is going to happen if they don’t? Again, if you have your way, nothing.

    Why should any Democrat ever listen to a single thing you say? You are going to vote for them no matter what they do.

    Leverage is the only way we are going to defeat the corporate monopoly on power. And that means that we have to be willing to lose in the short term in order to win in the long term.

    And I’m sorry, but the Sarah Palin threat just makes me laugh. A Palin presidency would do more to swing this country back to the left than anything else I can think of. Which, of course, is exactly why the plutocrats will never let it happen.

    No, what the plutocrats need most right now is a Republican in Democrats’ clothing. And that’s exactly what they’ve got in Obama.

  131. 131
    sistermoon says:

    Little whining bitches with hurt fee-fees. I used to think Choi was a hero, and now I think he’s just a nut-job.

    they don’t want or expect more, they just want to bitch, they are not serious

    Preach, y’all.

    Why isn’t Dan Choi doing something constructive, like reaching out to NY leglislators in support of marriage equality? Why aren’t Markos and Hamsher helping out with the recall efforts in Wisconsin?

    I’ve had it with Dan Choi, Jane Hamsher and the whole spoiled, privileged,Firebagger/DKos crew. Bitch,moan,bitch,moan and never offer any solutions.

    So keep your sorry asses home on Election Day. If the Rethugs retake the Senate and the White House, who will you blame then?

  132. 132
    NR says:

    I would say that politically he is in a very dangerous position, vastly underestimating the fury that people may be feeling in 2012.

    Indeed, just look at Europe for evidence of this. Every leftist government in Europe that tried austerity measures for deficit reduction has been replaced by a right-wing government. Hungary, Spain, Portugal, and Ireland. Greece will follow within the next week.

    Obama keeps pushing austerity at his own peril.

  133. 133
    ChrisNYC says:

    So disagree that this is “the media’s” fault or the evil result of outside “divide and conquer” strategies. Not everything can be blamed on the media. Too late for the internet to blame the big boys on this one. This is a homegrown problem.

  134. 134

    @NR: “Anything but actually addressing the issues.

    It’s pathetic.”

    Yep. And so are you.

    Tell me, with your head jammed so far up your nether regions–can you see the toast you had for breakfast?

    And the reason why folks are (righteously so) coming down on you like a proverbial ton of bricks is that it is you that is being the dips**t. You’re “F**k ’em all, I didn’t get my pony attitude and f**k Obama” attitude isn’t helping get things done, and it isn’t dealing with the hard, blunt fact that the Republican party intends to royally screw everyone, bending them over the fencepost and using no Vaseline.

    Obama is not perfect. But he’s done a hell of a lot, despite the congressional roadblocks in his way. But in your down is up/left is right thinking, he should be storming into Congress and cracking skulls and whipping out the AK-47 and letting them bullets fly.

    Newsflash–that’s not how things work in Congress. Maybe in a dictatorship–which is what Bush the Dim Son wanted, hence his, “I don’t give a damn what anyone thinks, I’m the Decider” attitude.

    Your problem, it seems, is that you wanted instant gratification and instant progress. And that’s where you are so very, very wrong (don’t worry, you’re in good company, since Greenwald and Hamsher are true believers in that). Here’s the truth–progressive progress takes time. It moves in fits and starts–but it does happen, just not overnight. Look back throughout the history of the 20th Century especially during FDR. Do you think he got everything done in two seconds? Fuck no!! It took two to three years for most of his New Deal programs to happen, and even then, he ran into problems with the courts and the Left which, back then, was blaring to anyone that listened that FDR was a fucking sellout and didn’t give a damn about the average American.

    Huh. That last line sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

    But hey, keep it up with your “FUCK OBAMA” nonsense. If you truly believe that he’s no better than the Republicans, then it seems no amount of evidence put in front of you is going to change your mind. Happy trails, then, buckaroo!

  135. 135
    Midnight Marauder says:

    I won’t be voting for Obama in 2012. I can’t. Yes, I know the consequences, but Obama doesn’t deserve 4 more years.

    Tell me, are those clown shoes comfortable? They seem pretty comfortable on you.

    A President get’s his agenda passed by engaging and energizing his base.

    A president gets their agenda passed when they don’t have a historically hostile House of Representatives thwarting their every move.

    I mean, you people are fucking morons.

  136. 136
    stinkdaddy says:

    @134:

    “in your down is up/left is right thinking, he should be storming into Congress and cracking skulls and whipping out the AK-47 and letting them bullets fly.

    Newsflash—that’s not how things work in Congress. Maybe in a dictatorship—which is what Bush the Dim Son wanted, hence his, “I don’t give a damn what anyone thinks, I’m the Decider” attitude.

    Your problem, it seems, is that you wanted instant gratification and instant progress.”

    No, this is the cartoon version of what we wanted that you guys pull out whenever it’s time to play this tired-ass game. Congress didn’t make Obama spend the last year and a half embracing austerity frames. They didn’t make him appoint Immelt, Geithner, Summers or the Bowles-Simpson commission. They didn’t make him send Dan Pfeiffer out today to claim the gay marriage survey from 1996 was faked and that Obama didn’t actually fill it out. They didn’t force him to go to war with Libya or to be harsher on whistleblowers than Bush*(Nixon+Wilson). In cases where Congressional recalcitrance was an issue ie. size of the stimulus, HCR/PO debate etc Congress didn’t force Obama to pre-emptively cave on “nonstarters” like the PO, Single payer, a larger stimulus and the like rather than using the so-called extreme positions as bargaining chips to get a better outcome.

    There are plenty of valid reasons for being upset with Obama. This shit about magic wands and instant-gratification ponies might’ve flown in 2009, but the guy’s been President for two and a half years now and his performance in that span has left plenty of valid reasons for complaint. On the economy he’s been a failure and on surveillance state / unitary executive stuff an absolute disaster. You’re going to have to come up with a new strawman.

  137. 137
    NR says:

    Newsflash—that’s not how things work in Congress.

    Well gee, isn’t it funny how the banksters never have any trouble getting what they want through Congress. Bankruptcy legislation, anyone?

    See, here’s the thing. We progressives rallied in 2006 and 2008. We worked our asses off, donated our hard-earned money, and showed up at the polls to elect more Democrats to Congress than there have been in a generation.

    What did we get in return? A bunch of warmed-over Republican corporatist legislation, repackaged as some sort of grand progressive triumph.

    People like you are so obsessed with labels that you are blind to substance. You know why Wall Street donates to both parties? Because they understand that labels don’t mean shit. They understand that a Democrat who does their bidding is just as good as a Republican who does their bidding. They understand the principle of leverage.

    And as long as there are people like you on the left, screaming that we have to vote D no matter what, they will have all the leverage and we will have none.

    And while you’re portioning out your outrage, maybe you could muster a little bit for this.

    There’s probably a book about a pony in there somewhere.

  138. 138
    stinkdaddy says:

    135: “A president gets their agenda passed when they don’t have a historically hostile House of Representatives thwarting their every move.”

    Uhh, you mean like the period between Jan 09 and Nov 10? Maybe all those thrilling half-measures that you guys have spent so long insisting were the best possible outcome aren’t so inspiring after all.

  139. 139
    Midnight Marauder says:

    You’re an idiot, NR.

    Well, we progressives have leverage too. That leverage is our vote. But, we’re told we can’t use that leverage. Sarah Palin might win. And so what do we get? Ignored.

    You actually have no leverage because you represent a minuscule portion of the Left. You belong to an increasingly irrelevant population of whiners and sanctimonious cowards. For fucks sake, the people you align yourself with actually had the temerity to scoff at the White House Communications Chief when he came to their convention and derisively asked him why they should even bother voting.

    Those are the actions of fundamentally unserious people. And fundamentally unserious people do not possess real leverage of any kind in this political culture.

    Republicans may be idiots, but they are deadly serious about building coalitions that allow them to win elections and subsequently initiate their political agendas.

    You don’t even have a modicum of that seriousness inside of you.

  140. 140
    stinkdaddy says:

    “If you truly believe that [Obama]’s no better than the Republicans, then it seems no amount of evidence put in front of you is going to change your mind. Happy trails, then, buckaroo!”

    There’s a progressive sitting at a table. This person is presented with both a heaping bowl of broken glass that has been shit on and then doused in acid and a sandwich that is merely garnished with a few scattered bits of broken glass. When asked which they want to eat, they say, “Neither. The bowl will certainly kill me, and the sandwich will at the very least cause internal bleeding.”

    How do you respond? Well if you hang out at Balloon Juice, your go-to is apparently to tell them that they’ve just declared the bowl and the sandwich to be equally bad.

    Or, leaving the strained metaphor aside, to shout at the progressive about how THE REAL PROBLEM IS CONGRESS as though we elect Reps and Senators by voting Obama for President. Hmmmm.

  141. 141
    stinkdaddy says:

    Oh, awesome. Now the thread has progressed to drawing distinctions between “Serious People” and the unwashed masses. It’s like we’re setting our own Beltway up right here on the internets.

  142. 142
    Corner Stone says:

    @Midnight Marauder #Looming somewhere above:
    Why don’t you sign your posts anymore?
    I always get a big kick out of your:
    /OBOT AWAAAAYYYYYYYY!!

  143. 143
    Reality Check says:

    I see at least some liberals with brains (NR and Trakker) are finally jumping off the rapidly sinking SS Obama, but most of you are just rats left behind on the ship, about to drown in the ocean out of your pathetic devotion to your imaginary BFF.

    Obama is a fraud, and a con, conservatives like me have known this for a long time, and even leftists are now starting to agree with us.

  144. 144
    gwangung says:

    See, here’s the thing. We progressives rallied in 2006 and 2008. We worked our asses off, donated our hard-earned money, and showed up at the polls to elect more Democrats to Congress than there have been in a generation.

    If you did that without realizing a great deal of the Democratic party covers what used to be liberal Republican territory, then you are truly an idiot. That territory is also a part of the Democratic platform, as well as the more progressive planks—which means the Democratic party promotes that area, too. You can’t ignore those Democrats, because they expect a say, as well.

  145. 145
    NR says:

    Those are the actions of fundamentally unserious people. And fundamentally unserious people do not possess real leverage of any kind in this political culture.

    Actually, what’s fundamentally unserious is continuing to support a party that routinely fucks over the working class, just because that party has a label on it that you like.

    And yes, you are right–you possess no real leverage because of that.

    I will again point out that no Democrat has any reason to listen to anything you say, because you are going to vote for them no matter what they do. And they know this.

    And as long as people like you are the dominant force on the left, nothing in this country will get any better.

  146. 146
    Reality Check says:

    That’s right, NR, the Democrat Party doesn’t care about you–they care about their own power and their own money, and gaining total and complete control over your life.

  147. 147
    NR says:

    That’s right, NR, the Democrat Party doesn’t care about you—they care about their own power and their own money, and gaining total and complete control over your life.

    Go away, Obama fan. You’re not fooling anyone.

  148. 148
    Reality Check says:

    I know it’s painful, NR, to find that you’ve given a lot of your time and money to an organization and President that’s nothing more than an organization of power-mongering thugs, but admission is the first steep on the road to recovery. Remember, Ronald Reagan started out as a liberal.

  149. 149

    If you did that without realizing a great deal of the Democratic party covers what used to be liberal Republican territory, then you are truly an idiot.

    Yes, and in the Southern Strategy bargain, we gave up, or the GOP took our dixiecrat white supremacist clowns and their voters. Not a bad deal if you ask, me, a little less left doctrinaire and a little more business friendly as part of the mix. As they should be part of the mix of basic ingredients that makes up this country and it’s capitalist system. But only part, not all of it.

    Save for a handful of conservatard dems in the senate, just past that, I think there is a sane, sober, pragmatic liberal base of reps, that is the dem party of today. It has caused the wingnuts to rebel past the point of being a loyal opposition, and into hard ass obstructionists.

    It is not the dems fault, that much of the country hasn’t yet caught on that, other than the 27 percenters from another planet, there is a limit to acting like mean crazy assholes, and still be able to get enough votes to win on a national basis.

    But signs are in polling, that more and more center to center right folks are getting it that the GOP is just unfit to govern, and crazy as shit house rats. we shall see, and learn much from the coming election. These voters in the middle to middle right, are economic conservatives, and that is why dems are respecting their notions of austerity, up to a point, and not past that point to gut core dem liberal prog issues and laws.

    And that is likely all that is required to get and keep them as dem voters, that will keep the dem party in power long enough to change the mess the wingnuts made over 30 years.

  150. 150
    Midnight Marauder says:

    I will again point out that no Democrat has any reason to listen to anything you say, because you are going to vote for them no matter what they do. And they know this.

    And no Democrat has any reason to listen to your fucking complaining because you represent an insignificant constituency who can never be satiated in any capacity.

    /O-BOT…AWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAYYYYYY!

    (that was for you, Corner Stone)

  151. 151
    OzoneR says:

    Every leftist government in Europe that tried austerity measures for deficit reduction has been replaced by a right-wing government. Hungary, Spain, Portugal, and Ireland.

    Wow, you have no idea what you’re talking about. These governments did not try austerity measures, they had it forced upon them by Germany because Germany controls the EU economy.

    Actually in each case, they tried progressive solutions first and they didn’t work.

  152. 152
    OzoneR says:

    Someone dares to talk about how the Democrats have fucked over the working class, turn around and attack them. They haven’t done enough.

    In what world is “Haven’t done enough” = “fucked over the working class” By simply using the world “enough,” you admit they’ve at least tried.

    but trying isn’t enough for you, nothing is enough for you, because YOU’RE NOT A PROGRESSIVE,

  153. 153
    gwangung says:

    These voters in the middle to middle right, are economic conservatives, and that is why dems are respecting their notions of austerity, up to a point, and not past that point to gut core dem liberal prog issues and laws.

    Is there any good reason NOT to respect their feelings if they’re being represented by Democratic politicians? (And a great deal of them are…)

    I never got the feeling that some progressives ever considered them as a constituency to take seriously; I think that’s a mistake.

  154. 154
    OzoneR says:

    Congress didn’t make Obama spend the last year and a half embracing austerity frames.

    Yes, they did

  155. 155
    doofus says:

    NR— Let’s say you convinced me not to vote for Obama since he is one of our oppressors. Now what? Should I watch Dancing With The Stars, or do you have some other course of action I should follow while I am busy not voting for Obama?

  156. 156
    NR says:

    In what world is “Haven’t done enough” = “fucked over the working class” By simply using the world “enough,” you admit they’ve at least tried.

    Reading comprehension fail. “They haven’t done enough” is the attack used against people who dare to criticize the Democrats. Just as it was used against me earlier in this thread.

  157. 157
    OzoneR says:

    There’s a progressive sitting at a table. This person is presented with both a heaping bowl of broken glass that has been shit on and then doused in acid and a sandwich that is merely garnished with a few scattered bits of broken glass. When asked which they want to eat, they say, “Neither. The bowl will certainly kill me, and the sandwich will at the very least cause internal bleeding.”

    Look, if you think that the Democrats have been doing is broken glass sandwich, then you’re not fucking serious, end of story.

  158. 158
    OzoneR says:

    I never got the feeling that some progressives ever considered them as a constituency to take seriously; I think that’s a mistake.

    Let them keep making the mistake, and let them cry in their lattes when their progressive Gods lose at the polls.

    Like i said, I like Republicans more because at least they don’t use the working class as a means to an end to try to give credibility to their unhinged cynicism.

  159. 159
    gwangung says:

    I never got the feeling that some progressives ever considered them as a constituency to take seriously;

    Actually, I should be more precise; they didn’t take them seriously because they always thought their concerns about deficit was spoon fed to them by the right wing, and dismissed them and their political clout because of that.

    And that IS a serious mistake.

  160. 160

    I never got the feeling that some progressives ever considered them as a constituency to take seriously; I think that’s a mistake.

    Of course it is a mistake, so long as these folks lend support to the basic democratic party platform for things like The New Deal, and the basic social safety net and workers rights.

    It is knee jerk purity to not welcome these folks and their votes, in exchange for the racist element that took up with the GOP. The saving grace for me is that our liberal/progressive actually in office understand this full well, and for the most part do welcome these moderate voters and their econ concerns.

    So we are left with the activist element huffing and puffing about sell out, and other similar nonsense. Most of them are young, I think, and didn’t get to experience the Lester Maddox dem party, or the George Mcgovern one, where they would know some true impurity of the finer and rougher points of liberal politics and party.

  161. 161
    OzoneR says:

    they didn’t take them seriously because they always thought their concerns about deficit was spoon fed to them by the right wing, and dismissed them and their political clout because of that.

    I half agree with that, I think their concerns are spoon fed to them by the right wing, but they do have insane political clout that progressives ALWAYS underestimate.

    And then when they do, they find every other excuse in the book for why this constituency really doesn’t exist; “Bad Message” “Bad candidate” and so on.

  162. 162
    Lynn Sutherland says:

    I have read most of the comments–and I ask, if you don’t agree with an expanded security state {the government can spy on anyone they think even thinks about protesting government policies}, if you think that law breakers should be prosecuted (bankers, hedge fund operators}, if you are grateful for whistle blowers, if you think torturers should be jailed, if you don’t believe a president can bomb whomever he pleases just because he pleases, what do you do? Can’t you protest without being labeled a whiner? Can’t you explain what’s going on without being called a radical leftist? I would never vote for one of these Republican crazies–but surely we can hold out for what is right.

  163. 163
    gwangung says:

    Of course it is a mistake, so long as these folks lend support to the basic democratic party platform for things like The New Deal, and the basic social safety net and workers rights.
    __
    It is knee jerk purity to not welcome these folks and their votes, in exchange for the racist element that took up with the GOP. The saving grace for me is that our liberal/progressive actually in office understand this full well, and for the most part do welcome these moderate voters and their econ concerns.

    Mistaken or not, you have to take those economic concerns seriously. I don’t think some people realize how wide spread they are. If a lot of people hold them, you have to deal with it politically. If you don’t, and you just ignore or dismiss them, then you really ARE the out of touch elitist the right wing accuse progressives of being, be definition.

  164. 164
    OzoneR says:

    if you don’t agree with an expanded security state {the government can spy on anyone they think even thinks about protesting government policies}, if you think that law breakers should be prosecuted (bankers, hedge fund operators}, if you are grateful for whistle blowers, if you think torturers should be jailed, if you don’t believe a president can bomb whomever he pleases just because he pleases, what do you do? Can’t you protest without being labeled a whiner? Can’t you explain what’s going on without being called a radical leftist? I would never vote for one of these Republican crazies—but surely we can hold out for what is right.

    That’s isn’t what we’re talking about here, what we’re talking about here is the idiotic logic of “All that can be solved by just staying home”

    You can organize and form movements for any one of those things and push the issue, just as New Yorkers are doing with marriage equality right now, but throwing up your hands and say “I’m gonna go sit in the corner and hope they lose so they’ll know to listen to me when complain on FireDogLake” is stupid, and completely unserious.

  165. 165
    gwangung says:

    I half agree with that, I think their concerns are spoon fed to them by the right wing, but they do have insane political clout that progressives ALWAYS underestimate.

    Oh, yeah. Gotta remember that these are PEOPLE—you know, people we’re supposed to be concerned about? Lots of them, with the political power that goes with them You ignore that at your peril….

  166. 166
    Corner Stone says:

    @OzoneR

    Like i said, I like Republicans more

    Of course you do amigo. We all knew that already.

  167. 167
    Corner Stone says:

    @Lynn

    what do you do?

    You shut your piehole and you vote straight ticket D. Because…Godzilla!!

  168. 168
    Corner Stone says:

    @OzoneR

    and let them cry in their lattes

    You never fail sir.

  169. 169
    OzoneR says:

    Mistaken or not, you have to take those economic concerns seriously. I don’t think some people realize how wide spread they are. If a lot of people hold them, you have to deal with it politically. If you don’t, and you just ignore or dismiss them, then you really ARE the out of touch elitist the right wing accuse progressives of being, be definition.

    You try telling you that and they’ll tear you five new assholes.

    reminds me of what a friend of mine told me about the Maine gay marriage ballot question back in 2009. He was up there helping the pro-marriage equality side and said a lot of field organizers were worried about socially conservative Catholic Democrats in Northern Maine and the leadership not only shrugged it off, but belitted those organizers and told them stuff like “If you don’t want us to win, the maybe you shouldn’t be on this campaign”

    Then on election day, those Northern Maine Catholic Democrats voted 3-1 against marriage equality causing it to fail statewide.

    The “progressives” blamed Obama.

  170. 170
    OzoneR says:

    you know, people we’re supposed to be concerned about? Lots of them, with the political power that goes with them You ignore that at your peril….

    I still haven’t heard a good progressive explain how the good people of Kentucky, in dire need of some New Deal, voted for Rand Paul when they had a progressive-anointed candidate in Jack Conway.

    Or why true blue progressive Joe Sestak lost to far right Pat Toomey in union-dominated Pennsylvania, or why Michigan unions endorsed Rick Snyder over staunchly pro-labor (or so I was told by the netroots) Virg Benero.

  171. 171
    stinkdaddy says:

    “Look, if you think that the Democrats have been doing is broken glass sandwich, then you’re not fucking serious, end of story.”

    In your mind the Dems really have been doing everything they could for working people, minorities, gay people, etc, is that correct?

    I’m Not Serious, that was established long ago. Do you have any arguments that don’t directly ape conventional Beltway frames, or any arguments at all for that matter? So far all I’ve gotten is that anyone who does not agree with you completely and absolutely is “not serious.” What does that label mean and why should I care about having it applied to me? I’m interested in specific policy outcomes, not some cliquey goalpost moving in-/out-group bullshit.

  172. 172
    stinkdaddy says:

    @162-

    “If you don’t agree … what do you do?”

    Shut up and vote for Obama and the Dems anyway. You don’t want Sarah Palin to become President do you?

    “Can’t you protest without being labeled a whiner?”

    No. Protesting dampens enthusiasm. You don’t want Sarah Palin to become President do you?

  173. 173
    OzoneR says:

    In your mind the Dems really have been doing everything they could for working people, minorities, gay people, etc, is that correct?

    Realistically, yes.

    I’m interested in specific policy outcomes, not some cliquey goalpost moving in-/out-group bullshit.

    If you’re interested in specific policy outcomes, then you need to be interested in moving goalposts, because that’s how you reach said outcomes. That’s not some “Beltway” thing, that’s the way democracy works and that’s the way it has worked since long before the Beltway was even a thought in anyone’s mind.

    The fact that you can’t see this obvious history is what makes you not-serious. You can’t be this stupid, you have to know this is how it works, so your bullshit is merely a protest against it, not a serious attempt at helping people.

  174. 174
    stinkdaddy says:

    Summary of received wisdom from latest BJ “manic progressive” shitfest:

    Progressives are an irrelevant, whiny group of children who are not listened to by mainstream Dems because they mistakenly label themselves the base and constantly threaten to abandon Democratic candidates if they don’t get their way. Also, if progressives don’t vote for Obama in ’12 will become President and it will be entirely their fault.

    Glad we cleared that up for merely the 218th time.

  175. 175
    Corner Stone says:

    @stinkdaddy #171

    In your mind the Dems really have been doing everything they could for working people, minorities, gay people, etc, is that correct?

    No, that is not correct. In any definition of correctness.
    OzoneR aka “Nothing can be done!” Nick, is here to set the params of accepted “left” opposition.
    We all know there are constituencies to the left of where OzoneR is. But Nick is doing his best to shut them down. As per usual.

  176. 176
    stinkdaddy says:

    “Realistically, yes.”

    Ahh, there’s the hedge. Well you know, given the circumstances … you have to consider the political pressure … change takes place slowly blah blah blah. In other words, your answer is that you think they could’ve done more for those groups. Weird how you’re nowhere near as nuanced when writing off anyone who disagrees with you in the slightest.

    “If you’re interested in specific policy outcomes, then you need to be interested in moving goalposts, because that’s how you reach said outcomes.”

    I’m talking about you appointing yourself Arbiter of Seriousness in order to have a backup plan when the tired old meme about ponies and magic wands* starts sagging under the weight of all the people you’ve assigned to it. Ok, sure, turns out Obama might’ve made a mistake or two. But the people who’re complaining about it are doing so in such an unserious manner! Why, in some cases they’ve even threatened to withhold their votes!

    *Funny watching all the mini-authoritarians directly parroting WH spin, first with the magic wand stuff and more recently with the Professional Left. Pfeiffer used the magic wand thing 3 times just at NN today.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/blo.....erung.aspx

    I wonder if there are any anti-progressive memes that’re popular at BJ that *didn’t* come directly from the WH communication people?

  177. 177
    Corner Stone says:

    @OzoneR #173
    You are fucking hilarious you joke sack.

  178. 178
    Cain says:

    @OzoneR

    Or why true blue progressive Joe Sestak lost to far right Pat Toomey in union-dominated Pennsylvania, or why Michigan unions endorsed Rick Snyder over staunchly pro-labor (or so I was told by the netroots) Virg Benero.

    This. You guys think you have some kind of power but you don’t. When I was doing calls to Democratic voters in Oregon most people haven’t heard of Jane Hamster or KOS or whatever. They (people, not democratic voters) vote for people who think they’ll help them even if it is deluded.

    People need to understand that the President is not some all powerful being whose use of the bully pulpit can change minds. Hell, how many people are even aware of the speeches he’s already given? You need an engaged press to have an effective bully pulpit. Otherwise all he has is the state of the union and press conferences.

    If I was to use one bit of criticism I would have wished he had used the network of volunteers for his campaign. Talked directly to them that might have helped. Bypass the media. I don’t know if it would have worked but it was worth trying. Using traditional means to rule from Washington is not going to cut it anymore I feel.

  179. 179
    Corner Stone says:

    @Cain #178
    You’re an idiot. 99% of the people who post here tell everyone JH is irrelevant. Only fucking idiots mention her, or cite her and FDL in any way.

  180. 180
    stinkdaddy says:

    @175- Hmm, ok. Rephrasing: the Dems haven’t been doing everything they could to fight for the mentioned groups, but it doesn’t matter because those groups are Not Serious. The only way those groups might someday become Serious is to shut up and vote Dem anyway, because as we know any sign of protest makes you Not Serious, and withholding your vote is Not Seriousest of all.

    Is this more accurate?

  181. 181
    OzoneR says:

    Progressives are an irrelevant, whiny group of children who are not listened to by mainstream Dems because they mistakenly label themselves the base and constantly threaten to abandon Democratic candidates if they don’t get their way. Also, if progressives don’t vote for Obama in ‘12 will become President and it will be entirely their fault.

    No, Obama will win without you, or lose without you, and you’re free to go your own way, but it’s only to mean the party will move further to the right.

  182. 182
    NR says:

    Let’s say you convinced me not to vote for Obama since he is one of our oppressors. Now what?

    From the way you ask the question, you obviously aren’t interested in the answer, so why bother?

  183. 183
    OzoneR says:

    Well you know, given the circumstances … you have to consider the political pressure … change takes place slowly blah blah blah. In other words, your answer is that you think they could’ve done more for those groups.

    I think Democrats could have done more like I think a quadriplegic could play for the Mets. Of course s/he could’ve, if s/he wasn’t paralyzed.

    Of course I think they could’ve done more, if they had more popular support, if they had less knee-jerk opposition, if there wasn’t a right wing media and if there wasn’t a Citizens United decision.

    But those things exist and you have to work around them. Ignoring them and pretending they don’t factor into things doesn’t help your cause at all.

  184. 184
    OzoneR says:

    the Dems haven’t been doing everything they could to fight for the mentioned groups, but it doesn’t matter because those groups are Not Serious. The only way those groups might someday become Serious is to shut up and vote Dem anyway, because as we know any sign of protest makes you Not Serious, and withholding your vote is Not Seriousest of all.
    Is this more accurate?

    No, and since you put that way, it’s increasingly clear you’re not really interested in having this discussion. You have your opinion and you’re sticking to it and you just want me to take you seriously because no one else will.

    I feel sorry for you. Have a good night.

  185. 185
    Cain says:

    You’re an idiot. 99% of the people who post here tell everyone JH is irrelevant. Only fucking idiots mention her, or cite her and FDL in any way.

    It’s about goddam time someone flamed me on this blog. Jeezus. What do I have to do around here to get my dick stroked.

    BTW I don’t really mention JH, that would just leave a bad taste in my mouth and I need to keep my breath minty fresh when talking to voters. But I do get blank looks when I talk about political websites like KOS.

  186. 186
    OzoneR says:

    But I do get blank looks when I talk about political websites like KOS.

    A coworker of mine mentioned KOS the other day, she thought it was a right wing blog.

  187. 187
    Corner Stone says:

    @Cain
    Congrats! You and OzoneR/Nick/etc are in the same boat.
    Well done kid, well done.

  188. 188
    Corner Stone says:

    @OzoneR

    A coworker of mine mentioned KOS the other day, she thought it was a right wing blog.

    Sure she did kid. Sure she did.

  189. 189
    Corner Stone says:

    According to Nick/OzoneR:
    “Now I know how Obama feels!”

  190. 190
    Cain says:

    Congrats! You and OzoneR/Nick/etc are in the same boat.
    Well done kid, well done.

    Pfft. I’m on no one’s boat but my own. I’m sure that my opinions and OzoneR will diverge some where else and yours and mine will align. Hah.

    But thanks for the attention.. i do appreciate it.

  191. 191
    Corner Stone says:

    @Cain
    I’m here for you….I’m here for you.

  192. 192
    Trakker says:

    My, my, imagine my shock at the reception my comment (#98) received.

    It’s not that I’m surprised that so many take issue with my intention not to vote for Obama in 2012, I don’t expect everyone to agree.

    What disgusted me was the names and personal attacks for expressing an(evidently unpopular) opinion (e.g., Whiskey Screams….: “Trakker: I know you. Not personally, but I know you. You’re the kind of person who has public screaming fits if your latte isn’t made right. You’re the kind of person who beats his kids rather than parent them. You’re the kind of guy who sets his car on fire when it won’t start in the morning. You are an idiot and a living embodiment of everything that is wrong with our country, with the world, and with humanity.”)

    So, because I don’t believe Obama deserves another 4 years that is evidence that I’m an idiot and I beat my kids??! My God, people, are you insane?

  193. 193
    Yutsano says:

    A Palin presidency would do more to swing this country back to the left than anything else I can think of.

    I dunno how everyone missed this, but I want whatever the hell you’re smoking if you truly believe this.

  194. 194
    Lysana says:

    So, because I don’t believe Obama deserves another 4 years that is evidence that I’m an idiot and I beat my kids??! My God, people, are you insane?

    I wouldn’t say you beat your kids, but you’re surely wanting them to live in a deeper pit of Hell than we’re already in. I mean, seriously, Trakker, have you spent two minutes looking at the alternatives? We are NOT going to get the Great Progressive Hope if the purists spit on Obama and split the left. We will get Michelle. Fucking. BACHMANN.

    And if the progressive left does split the party and the Republicans win, I will personally rip the shit out of anyone like you who refused to vote for Obama. Possibly with my bare hands, since prison will be the only way I can ensure myself access to health care.

  195. 195
    Johnny C. says:

    What the firebaggers are advocating sounds something like: Our quarterback isn’t doing so well, so instead of working on plays or beefing up pass block to help him out let’s the opposing defense drive his ass into the ground. If you don’t want to vote for Barack Obama in 2012 go right ahead but don’t expect a cookie and a gold star for it.

    But if worst comes to worst I sure hope not to find you people on the various blogs or community threads saying “OMG see what President Bachmann or Romney are doing”. And that’s not a scare tactic in a realm of possibilities a nut like Michele Bachmann can secure the Republican nomination and with the aid of non votes from firebaggers and votes from so called “Independent” voters she can become president.

    Lastly thing this whole if you support Obama you’re not truly a liberal that’s funny the douchebags that are telling me that are folks who watches “former” conservative Republican Cenk Uygur on MSNBC, they get their latest Obama outrage from conservative Republican Arinna Huffington’s “Huffington Post” and they go to Salon to read libertarian Glenn Greenwald who endorsed far right wing Republican Gary Johnson for President.

  196. 196
    Allan says:

    From what I understand from actual attendees, the vast majority of the sessions are not focused on wah wah Obama sucks worse than Hitler, and many are devoted to strategizing in order to win his reelection in 2012.

    But for some completely mysterious reason, our “liberal” media isn’t reporting that. I’m absolutely gob-smacked to hear that reporters are getting an event wrong in a way that feeds a meme for the very first time ever.

  197. 197
    Lysana says:

    From what I understand from actual attendees, the vast majority of the sessions are not focused on wah wah Obama sucks worse than Hitler, and many are devoted to strategizing in order to win his reelection in 2012.

    I’m getting the same impression, which is a relief. I just wish Hamsher and the fruit of her pork loin would STFU. They’re allowing the media to push the meme.

  198. 198
    Lydgate says:

    Trakker,
    I was pretty stunned by the responses to your post. I mean, you wrote you don’t intend to vote for him, but you can understand others that will. And that is all. No personal attacks.
    I was sickened to see some of the responses: dipshit. idiot. “living embodiment of everything that is wrong with this country.”

    Oh, and not aimed at you, but “activists are childish”. Nice.

  199. 199
    TheHalfrican says:

    (as told by the anemic turnout at the Wisconsin panels at NN)

    And yet Hamsherpalooza was packed.

    Ugh. That is truly sick.

  200. 200
    TheHalfrican says:

    As a former Naderite

    As SOON as I read that, I screamed out “YOU LEARNED!!!” at my computer screen.

    So many people have FORGOTTEN the Lesson of 2000.

    At Big Orange I’m seeing “Obama is no better than a Republican or worse we shouldn’t vote for him” bitchfests getting 100+ recs. Its like these motherfuckers have forgotten and think it can’t get any worse than Bush.

  201. 201
    Trakker says:

    @Lydgate: thanks for your comment. Everyone is scared (true of the left and the right) and we all overreact sometimes. I get it. But it bothers me to see demeaning insults, and “if you disagree with me you are the scum of the earth” attitudes directed at liberals, not tea partiers

    @Lysana: YES, I HAVE given more than two minutes thought to the alternatives. I’m 66 and have observed politics longer than most of you have been alive. I have kids and grandkids and I have no desire to assign them to a “deeper pit in hell.” Maybe I have a longer view than some. Maybe I loath politicians who pretend to be a man of the people and once elected serve the rich. Maybe I’m too idealistic. Maybe I’m even wrong. But insults are not going to get me to change my mind.

    And who appointed you God? Why must I do what you say or you will “rip the shit out of anyone like you [me] who refused to vote for Obama”? So there it is, isn’t it. Vote for Obama or we’ll rip the shit out of you. And how is that morally superior to Jane Hamsher’s rants?

  202. 202
    Trakker says:

    Halfrican:

    “At Big Orange I’m seeing “Obama is no better than a Republican or worse we shouldn’t vote for him” bitchfests getting 100+ recs. Its like these motherfuckers have forgotten and think it can’t get any worse than Bush.”

    Motherfuckers??! Wow. Why do you assume you are smarter than they are? Why do you assume they haven’t carefully thought out their opposition to Obama? I’m sure some of them think you are misguided for ‘blindly supporting a DINO.’

  203. 203
    ABL says:

    Yes, I know the consequences, but Obama doesn’t deserve 4 more years. A President get’s his agenda passed by engaging and energizing his base.

    it’s always the folks who aren’t his base and never were to begin with who cry about energizing his base. guess what? he’s doing fine with his base. it’s the outliers that are screaming and getting airtime. people like you? or people like the people you’re pretending to be? we’ll be just fine without you.

    i’m glad to hear that hamsherpolooza was a set up for the media and there are other worthy pursuits at Netroots Nation. i would find that atmosphere too toxic because of the hamsher/aravosis/bitchandmoan/blackface posse. i hope she is pleased that her antics are the first news stories that independents, or folks leaving the GOP (like people disillusioned with scott walker) see: mean girls bullshit about obama not being their boyfriend. pfft.

    where is she on wisconsin, anyway? too busy staging bullshit with dan choi and trying to keep the bradley manning story alive, i reckon.

    ::shrug::

    it’s a load of horseshit. i’m glad so many on this thread see it. and i’m glad people who, shockingly, have never commented before here are being so transparent in their attempt to portray themselves as brokenhearted liberals.

    welcome to BJ, “trakker,” ITYRN. take that sock off your head. have a spot of tea. it’s going to be a long ugly road to the day you punch that card for obama on 11/6/12.

    :)

  204. 204
    Lysana says:

    Oh, Trakker, if you think I was insulting you, your 66 years have clearly been spent keeping your skin soft and easily bruised. Not to mention failing at critical thinking.

    You’re not taking the long view if you want the Republican to win. You’re taking the butthurt short view. And an inaccurate one at that.

    As for my rage expression, go suck your thumb. I’m tired of losing my rights and seeing people like you act like it’s a good idea because you’re upset Obama isn’t Morgan Freeman in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. Dead. Fucking. Tired.

Comments are closed.