Just sort of thinking out loud here, so bear with me. After the fence goes in, I have an area right off the back porch that will be sort of the outdoor area where I intend to work and eat and relax (when it is not 2000 degrees outside). It’s narrow- about 17 feet wide at the biggest part, but most of this area has my porch in it. I don’t want to put down brick or anything elaborate, but I am thinking about just leveling it out with sand and putting in flatstones from the creek. The one thing I worry about, though, is that I am clumsy as an oaf and never look where I am going, and I can see myself easily tripping on the stones when the sand erodes away with the rain. Any alternatives? And I’m serious about that- I’m always thinking about something else and walking into shit, and my legs are littered with cuts, bruises, and scars from walking into stuff and I have no idea where I got them. I don’t freak out about it, I heal really well, so I just let stuff bleed out to clean the wound and don’t worry about it, but I don’t want to go out of my way to make it into a Faces of Death video. My dad is the same way- a family member is always asking us “How did you get that cut,” and we look to whatever they are pointing at and shrug.
I also don’t want anything over elaborate, I just want something simple and earthy and tasteful. I’ve picked out a nice teak table and bench that are super comfortable and will look great in that area, so keep that in mind.
PhoenixRising
Teak? My wife bought us some very comfy plastic and wicker type items for the patio and everyone stopped talking about my bruises. YMMV. it came from Costco IiRC. Good luck.
Punchy
Lemmie finish that….
“mexis jump over it”
Truly,
GOP
John Cole
@PhoenixRising: I’m with you normally, but this table and bench set was only 300 bucks and AWESOME. I haven’t bought it yet and probably won’t, because I still need to do gutters and waterproof the foundation wall which has a slight leak into the garage and then seal the basement floor. So I probably won’t be able to afford it, but AIM HIGH!
Stefan
OK, I think “simple and earthy and tasteful” has to be a new Balloon Juice tag…
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
Given you have winters there, any stones just put in sand will shift over time due to water freezing and thawing. We have a brick patio like that – lots of weeds grow up through it too. It’s a pain. A few years ago we had an old brick walkway reset on a concrete base with mortar to make it more permanent and greatly reduce tripping hazards and maintenance issues.
Your application sounds like an ideal case for use of that rubber mulch stuff. I haven’t used it myself.
E.g. http://www.rubbermulch.com
HTH a little. Good luck!
Cheers,
Scott.
John Cole
@Stefan: Basically I don’t want any plastic fantastic pink flamingo white painted stone bullshit like you would see in the backyard of one of the houses from the movie Casino.
JGabriel
John Cole:
The first idea to cross my mind was that maybe you should replace the flatstones with throw pillows.
Then I realized that suggestion was: not helpful.
However, maybe this one is: skip the flagstones. Just sand. Sounds safer. On the other hand, you could possibly find a way to trip over a particularly large grain.
Gravel is another option.
.
PhoenixRising
You might just find that don’t need to do anything to the foundation once the gutters are doing the job of moving all the water away from the house…but maybe I just told my wife the basement was all better when I started doing the laundry, and its still a little bit damp down there. It no longer features a seasonal spring, though, so that allowed me to call off Cousin With a Backhoe. Which put the deck into our budget.
On the flat area, can you fit flagstones tight to each other? And level them about once a decade? If that second part does not appeal, make a path to the sharp, dangerous teak ensemble and run those solar lights next to it. Uptown, man.
CatHairEverywhere
It doesn’t really freeze here, so I don’t know about the problems related to that, but we use the tan-colored, cement, 12″ hexagon pavers for walkways etc. here. They blend into the ground well, and have a clean look. They are also only about $1 each.
BD of MN
any thoughts about mulch? although you have to add some every couple of years (since it’s biodegradable), it’s easy to deal with and has the added benefit of being soft(er)…
Chuck Butcher
It ain’t all that simple. First you need flat stones, which really means buying flagstones. You need to remove sod and flatten the area, lay out landscaper’s cloth and cover with about an inch (two would be better) of crushed rock for stability and cover with another inch and half of sand. (all surfaces tamped) Set stones, trimming where needed for joints, and then broom sand into joints. Wet with sprinkler and repeat. If (when) the sand begins to go away, simply repeat.
That should stay nice for quite awhile, cutting corners will guarantee problems.
If you do not properly set the stone you will get an uneven surface for tripping on and a mess to try to clean. Chances with uneven materials are much higher, damn near inevitible.
nalbar
Pavers
http://www.wikihow.com/Install-Pavers
They are used all over the country, even back east where it freezes. Properly installed (it’s no where near as hard as it looks) it’s just as good as concrete. Do some research.
.
mr. whipple
Put down the stones, fill in between with sand.
Warren Terra
I assumed the fence going up was just a sign that rather than drag your tired posterior out of doors to walk the dogs you wanted an enclosed dog run into which you could release them.
JGabriel
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
John, I was thinking of something like this too, then discarded the idea because you said you didn’t want to “put down brick or anything elaborate”.
But if you’re open to the idea, perhaps fitting and mortaring the flagstones close together is a good plan.
.
Martin
6″ crushed gravel – use a tamper at 3″ and again at 6″ so it doesn’t settle a ton – it’ll save you time later. Stone dust as a base (sand is light, stone dust is heavy and will stay put.) Toss down two long lengths of 1″ gas pipe 7′ apart, level them with a slight grade for drainage, and use a 2″x4″x8 to draw the top flat. Move one pipe to the next location and repeat. Brick or pavers on top with about a 1/4″ gap. Use a rubber mallet to pound them down. Use polymeric stone dust between the bricks/stones. Polymeric stone dust minimizes water penetration, doesn’t wash away with the rain, and will keep the water from undermining your pavers.
Expect to have to go back in 5 years or so to re-level the pavers as they’ll heave a bit each winter. Just pry each one off that isn’t level, dig out the stone dust, lay down some new stuff, relevel, and just pop the paver back in place and repeat. Put down new polymeric dust in the gaps.
Chuck Butcher
Soft surfaces will mean animal poop.
S. cerevisiae
Fuck you all!!! N
Martin
@JGabriel: In my formula above, you can add some portland cement to the stone dust to firm it up. Instead of going 1:2 or 1:3 cement/sand, go with 1:6 or 1:8. It won’t be enough to bond the stone dust into a solid mass, but it’ll reach a kind of intermediate state that’s a fair bit more durable, particularly to rain.
Warren Terra
@S. cerevisiae:
I’m sure I deserve the vituperation somehow, but I would rather like to know how, precisely, in this instance.
S. cerevisiae
John, I love your site and I would like to stay there.
S. cerevisiae
@Warren Terra: Warren, I am kinda drunk but I have no problem with you or anyone else.
john smallberries
decomposed granite, like stone dust, is denser than sand and much more likely to stay in place. works great for paths and patios here in lovely california.
Michael Dybevick
What Butcher and Martin said, but you can get away without so much digging out if you outline with something heavy like landscape timbers fixed with rebar or 4″ thick large flagstones or even cement capstones. Of course you will then trip over the step up to your 4″ high deck.
RoonieRoo
How about using just decomposed granite. That is what we use down here for pathways or even “patio” like areas without using flagstone or bricks.
robertdsc-PowerBook
More grass.
Warren Terra
@robertdsc-PowerBook:
No, that you do in the basement, or else you get busted.
Violet
Check back in July to see if your outdoor furniture has gone on sale. Stores tend to put patio furniture on sale in July and even into August.
As for the patio, I agree with the others to take the time to do it right. I inherited a flat stone path in the house I moved into last year. It’s progressively got worse all year and everyone constantly trips on the stones. It’s to the point where people walk on the grass to avoid the stones. Do it right or don’t do it at all. And use something better than unfitted flat stones.
One other suggestion, don’t do anything right now. See how you use the space once the fence it up and put it in in a month or so. You may find you want something different after you’ve lived with it a little while.
Strandedvandal
Recycled Rubber pavers. Home Depot has them here in Idaho. Called Envirotile. Weather resistant and more clod proof than granite or concrete
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
Brick is actually pretty easy and not elaborate and will give you a smoother surface than what ypu’re proposing. I think the flatstones will be difficult to lay down attractively for a level surface.
If you go with brick, though, use stone dust and not sand. Ants won’t come up through the stone dust.
Platonicspoof
Can you post a picture of the project area’s surroundings?
(Just set your camera on a tripod with the shutter open, then walk around with your flash unit in your hand, setting it off here and there.)
Martin
@john smallberries: The other difference between sand and stone dust is that the former is round and the latter is angular. Sand can’t be compacted and tends to slide around. It’s fine if all you’re using it for is to level a compacted material like gravel, or to go between bricks. Stone dust does compact but it also holds onto more water, which can be a bit of a downside, which is why good preparation is important. Renting a small plate compactor from HD is well worth it, and I think even Cole could work it without injuring himself.
bly
I was going to suggest decomposed granite, too. Here in So Cal it is used to wonderful effect for patios and trails and garden paths. Keeps the water in the ground rather than running off, which is a big concern here.
I’ve no idea whether your climate changes it’s desirability, but I’d check it out.
GrammyPat
If you put in a border (e.g. 4×4, landscape timber), the sand cannot wash out (with klutzy tendencies, I recommend against any type of metal edging). Over time the sand and rocks will subside into the ground but if you put a heavy (or multiple layers) of landscape fabric under the stones/sand it will function as a weed barrier as well as minimizing any sinkage (is that a word?).
Set your border, place the fabric, spread a layer of sand bedding (as coarse-grained as you can find), place the stones (allowing plenty of time to fit the stones tightly together), “work” them into the sand bedding, and then scatter enough sand to cover and fill in the cracks. Hose down frequently as you work and expect to top off the sand as it settles around the stones and compacts.
Alternatively, you can use pea-gravel as your bedding but the sand will settle into the voids between the small gravel. So I suggest applying the KISS theory. Also too, you will have the perfect outdoor litter box for Tunch if the stones are not set close enough.
fasteddie
crushed limestone or “screenings”. Like sand but limestone. Much more solid. put it around the flagstones, sprinkle some mortar mix and hose it down. Solid.
RandyH
Pavers on nicely tamped-down sand. You won’t trip on it, it’s easy to install and looks great. But you might want to job it out to someone with experience installing it. You work too hard on all this stuff. Just don’t use flagstones or similar. They look nice but suck to walk on, especially barefoot.
soonergrunt
Pavers and polymeric sand.
if you’re wedded to the blue stone/flagstone concept, you can get the polymeric binder separate from the sand, and mix it with the agregate that you would normally use with the stone and that should work effectively too.
Tim, Interrupted
POLYMERIC SAND, Cole. That is the answer.
It is a recently developed product which consists of sand coated in a polymer material. You set your pavers, dump the sand on top and sweep it into the crevices, then soak thoroughly with water and stay off it for a couple of days. The polymeric sand sets and becomes a firm but spongy and somewhat porous substance that holds your pavers in place and allows most of the water that gets on it to drain off without penetrating, which helps preserve your substrate; all of which leads to less shifting, settling and tripping for you.
Just this spring I had a new patio put in. Polymeric sand was used to set the pavers and it is awesome.
You will want to use a border/edging of some kind around the perimeter to hold the pavers and sand in place also. And be sure to grade your patio properly so that the water drains away from the house and off the patio.
All of the above is available at home improvement stores.
Tim, Interrupted
Here’s a link about the polymeric sand:
http://www.groundtradesxchange.com/pavers/polymeric_sand.htm
Chuck Butcher
W VA is wet with soggy winters, stone dust will retain water where sand will not. Stone dust is more stable, I used sand with my bricks and accepted re-sanding periodically because our winters suck and spring is wet as hell.
S. cerevisiae
Let’s have some drunken fun: THROUGH THE WORMHOLE!
S. cerevisiae
Morgan Freeman fucking rules.
ant
you consider doing something out of wood cole?
match your new fence with a wood deck.
S. cerevisiae
HO LEE FUCH you guys need to get your @#%t together.
S. cerevisiae
Although I must admit y’all got some good construction guys. NICE.
Chuck Butcher
A rubber mallet is your friend. Just don’t get the idea it won’t smash a finger…
becca
@ant:
Adding a low deck, a platform, could be cool and no weeds to battle.
MikeJ
Depleted uranium.
Platonicspoof
@S. cerevisiae:
Are you watching ‘What Happened Before the Beginning’?
That stuff will rot yiur brian.
TuiMel
I agree with those who suggest using pavers. I admit I had someone else do my installation (a small back patio), but they look good, IMO, give you options for shapes and colors, and mine are holding in place just fine (in Seattle). Do it right or you’ll wind up doing it over.
psycholinguist
You people don’t get it. John is looking to do this on the cheap, not mortgaging the house to buy polymeric sand and rubber pavers or whatnot. John, look around your town for a brickyard/industrial supply yard and ask them what they have for paverbase – chances are they have a huge pile of crushed concrete/rock or something akin to that. Then see if their willing to sell you a truckload or dump a pile on your lawn for 50 bucks. Then go get some of those flat concrete patio stones and set them on that – that river rock ain’t gonna work because it won’t be flat, and your table won’t ever set on it right.
If you really want to go cheap, do what my dad does for all his walkways/patio’s. He gets a truckload of iron slag for like 30 bucks or something, and uses that for his base – it’s environmentally neutral limestone basically, works great and is cheap as hell.
Anne Laurie
Learn from our bitter experience, stay away from plain sand. The dogs will bring it in trapped in their hairy little toes and shed it in your bed — even with your jammies, it will be “apres-beach sand-in-your-bathing-suit” every damned night. And if you have rugs on bare wood, they will find ways to track the sand where it can effectively convert those area rugs into extra-large sanders to take the finish off the floors.
While you’re figuring out how exactly you’ll use your new ‘outdoor room’, get some cheap rubber pavers from the local big-box store (or even rubber-backed door mats on clearance), throw them down, and find out where you & the animals actually walk. If you trip on them, you’ll land soft(er), and they’re easy to move around without injuring yourself.
If I hadn’t spent the last 15+ years putting down yards of bark mulch on an annual basis, I’d definitely be looking at the Rubber Mulch site covetuously. The strips we’ve got around our front raised beds were easy enough for me to install single-handed, they improved the look of things 85% immediately, and they’ve held up beautifully through almost a decade of New England weather. And it’s designed to keep small children, horses, and other animals with spatial / vertigo issues from crippling themselves when they fall…
eemom
@soonergrunt:
@Tim, Interrupted:
two such disparate persons posting the same thought at the same moment about polysmeric whateverthefuck sand cannot be without cosmic significance of apocalyptic proportions.
Lurleen
I would go with pulverized granite or whatever it is called. I have been stumbling on the strangest things lately. I think I am just getting old and at some point the dogs and cats will just eat me.
Martin
@psycholinguist: We get it. The guy lives in West Virginia – the state where half the stuff under the ground gets dumped on top of the ground as a matter of routine. A truck of crushed stone should cost next to nothing. Polymeric sand is like $10 for 50#. He can fill the gaps in a 300sq ft patio for $30. If he’s not impatient, he should keep his eye on Craigslist and freecycle and see if he can get the pavers/bricks for free/cheap. I’ve got 100sq feet of natural granite slabs and 200sq feet of used brick in my yard waiting to be installed. Cost me $0, and the guy with the granite was so eager to get rid of it he delivered it and unloaded the truck for me.
Don’t equate doing something cheap for doing something shitty. You can do first rate work for next to nothing if you’re resourceful.
Cole – another thought: go poke around the nicer streets in your area and see if anyone is tearing out a concrete driveway or patio. It’s cheaper for them to dump the concrete in your yard than get it dumped/recycled, and you can use the busted up pieces like pavers. If the area is semi-shady or shady, get some irish moss to put down between the pavers (just a little plug here or there and it’ll spread out). The moss will take care of your erosion problem, soak up a fair bit of the water that lands, and you can walk on it. Looks really nice with a rough stone like busted concrete or natural pavers. It’ll grow right in the sand – doesn’t even need soil.
Origuy
I can’t believe no one has suggested astroturf.
SST
Dunno if people seen this, but I was happy to see TNC get an editorial in the NYT. Would like to see him get more time there.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/09/opinion/09coates.html?hp
JGabriel
Origuy:
We leave that to the GOP.
.
JGabriel
@SST: Thanks for the link. Good column.
.
quaker in a basement
Take no chances. Just park it in the La Z Boy and stay put.
Greg Joseph
John, Quickly changing the subject. Has anyone heard what happened to Palin’s alter ego Rebecca Mansour? After the Daily Caller published her dismissive emails of the Palin’s, I’ve heard nothing about her. Is she still with Cons4Palin? Has anyone heard anything?
cbear
@Greg Joseph:
Not me, but after seeing several pictures of the woman, I’d suggest you keep an eye out for news reports of local townfolk with torches and pitchforks chasing some frightening creature up to a castle. That will prolly be her.
debbie
As someone who tripped on a level sidewalk while thinking distractedly, fell full-force on the knobby part of my knee, and 3 months later still can’t kneel, I suggest you leave it as is. Grass is a whole lot softer than any other kind of material.
NeenerNeener
Now I want to see an episode of “Yard Crashers” where Ahmed follows John home from the hardware store and landscapes his yard in two days.
I watch way too much HGTV.
The Ancient Randonneur
Cole you live in WV just put your damn Lazyboy out in that spot and call it a day. If you’re picky throw a poncho over it so it doesn’t get rained on. Then get one of those TV carts with casters and a long extension cord so you can roll it out to that spot. See it really wasn’t that hard, was it?
Weeds? No, no, no! Wildflowers is what you call those things.
ErinSiobhan
We can get small river stone around here. It’s better than gravel because the individual stones have been rounded off rather than being sharp like gravel. So it’s not painful when you walk on it.
Better than sand because it doesn’t get tracked around so much (and less chance it will get used as kitty litter). Not as good as a low wooden deck or a paver patio but a lot less hassle. I’d avoid the flagstone idea because you will never get it level.
Josie
You can also make your own pavers very inexpensively. Lowe’s has molds that you fill with concrete in whatever color you want. They are designed to fit together nicely with a little sand or whatever in between. My son made me a walkway with them, and I (also rather clumsy) have yet to trip on them.
geg6
What? Are you too cheap to buy actual pavers or flagstones that are at least evenly cut so that a clumsy ox like you won’t trip over them more than necessary? The shoulder wasn’t enough for you, Cole?
Jeebus.
stuckinred
Crushed brick is great!
Just Some Fuckhead
When we moved in here about seven years ago, I ripped out the wooden deck in the back, dug up the yard, put down six inches of gravel and sand, then 16″ pavers. It was a ton of work and I can’t remember how many times I smashed my damned fingers.
My suggestion is to have a fund-raiser to “fix the site” and siphon off about three grand to have a nice brick patio done professionally.
Bobby Thomson
How’s the ‘gator moat coming along?
wonkie
Well…a neighbor of mine went the wildflower seed route. I don’t know how they killed off the grass. They have to reseed every three years or so. This is back in Iowa where the snow covers up the yard in the winter. No mowing or watering needed of course. The yard turns yellow in the fall but the blooms all summer long are lovely.
YellowDog
Here’s an issue that most people don’t think about–stone or pavers, especially with sand, will create a heat sink. A friend of mine had a problem area on the side of his house–too much direct sun–where grass was hard to maintain. Water restrictions in the summer meant that he couldn’t water it very often. He came up with the idea of putting in a patio for entertaining. In August, that side of the house became unbearably hot and his electric bills became unbearably high. If you want to work out there, you might be making it hotter than you want. Stay green.
eastriver
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I did something similar. But I instead of a gravel and sand bed, I used the putrified corpses of lost pets mixed in with dog-geared Stephen King paperbacks. It’s pretty stable. I’ve gotten used to the ghostly howling on foggy, moon-less nights. And the smell finally went away. So there’s that.
shortstop
@JGabriel: Nice.
And reading through this thread, I’m once again thankful to live in a condo with a simple wooden deck put in by someone else, because a job like this would have me in the ER within an hour and a half.
tt crews
As far as we are concerned the backyard is on its own. Like yours, our back yard is only about 15′ wide. We mow whatever is growing there (not much since it is so shady) twice a year and let the leaves form a nice forest bed.
Jason
John,
River stones will hold heat in the summertime and release it after dusk.
If plants won’t grow there pagers look best but are a ton of work (literally tons of work)
For light usage, setting the stones down and pouring sand over them (poly sand would work well) is probably fine. A full patio will look and last better.
I’d just plant Eco grass there, though. Mow 2-3 times a year and don’t worry: http://www.wildflowerfarm.com/index.php?p=catalog&parent=8&pg=1
Just Some Fuckhead
@The Ancient Randonneur:
If you get yer clunker high enough on cinderblocks, you can sit under it during a storm.
Of course, it’s supposed to be out front, not in the back. Maybe John can get a second one for the backyard.
AnnaN
I would suggest large pavers with a muted color and slight texture, place a few inches apart, sink them into the ground and put in a low growing, thick, springy, ground cover in the gap. Voila, nature-y patio that does not require mowing.
The gap shouldn’t intrude with furniture placement and the growth should keep the soil from washing away in the rain.
beergoggles
Just get the recycled rubber mulch and mulch the whole area. All the playgrounds around where I live have that stuff and it’s perfect for kids and clutzes.
I’ve got mats made out of that stuff that I lay between my vegetable beds. I was thinking about it for my driveway but instead went with crushed shells because 1. this is new england, and 2. I am not a clutz, and 3, it’s pretty.
JR
Build a low deck just above the ground. Much easier than pavers, etc. We have a little patio with pavers, weeds come up between the seams and we never use it. I’m gonna take it up and make it part of the driveway, an extra parking space. All the tamping and bedding material makes it way more work than you want.
Go with pressure treated 5/4 screwed onto 4×4 sleepers on the ground. The only trick is gettig the sleepers level and solid first, but screwing it all together will make it stable.
lou
As someone who did something similar, all I can say is don’t do it. if you put down flagstones, pave between them. When we put in slate flagstones, we put gravel between the pavers. Five years later, it looks terrible. the gravel/dirt is constantly covering the flagstones and it’s impossible to clean. To say nothing of the weeds.
p.a.
Regular sand under and between any kind of stepper will be a wonderful weed growth medium. Stonesand is better but not perfect. I keep my pathways clear by creating a toxic zone with weed killer, but I have no pets and don’t go barefoot outside. I don’t know anything about polymerized sand. Consider controlling nature instead of fighting it- put down pavers of your choice and plant step-resistant plants between them; spreading thyme etc. You’ll need to weed for a while until they fill in. A base for the pavers is critical. Small pvc drainage tubes under pea gravel, and a slight pitch away from the house. And if you’re really that clutzy, once the fence is up a bicycle helmet worn in the back yard won’t bring the state mental health authorities for a visit ;)
dianne
We put in a low deck, too. Added lattice a few years later on the sides and above and put sheets of suncreen on top to create shade till the trees grew enough to make natural shade. We still have the sunscreen up and all of our plants are very happy and never get sunburned.
Just be sure that you put concrete piers ?? in to keep the wood off the ground. We used pressure treated wood nearly 18 years ago and it is still solid. The lattice has to be replaced every five years or so.
John Weiss
John, use the river stones. Instead of sand, use “rotten” granite, which will not wash out.
jane from hell
God, I love these “John is a klutz” threads
bobbo
Decomposed granite is really nice. Also, too, gravel? You can get it in all different colors and sizes. It can be just a tad shaky to walk on, but I think if you get small enough ones you would be ok.
karen marie
@Martin: Thank you for recommending stone dust. I second the recommendation. It compacts much better than sand and, thus, stays put better, keeps weeds down better, etc, etc.
If you get the area level and everything compacted, there shouldn’t be any problem with stones shifting. In fact, you can just put down stone dust alone and it would be lovely.
ET
What about modular outdoor flooring
http://www.handydeck.com/
EJ
Seconding this – old broken-up concrete often has a really nice weathered appearance and it’s very heavy so it won’t shift around much. Irish moss is a good choice – looks nice, can take some sun, hard to kill, and keeps the weeds down. For some shade, plant bamboo – grows fast, looks nice, and the only care it requires is raking up the leaves once in a while. (Bamboo has a reputation for taking over your yard, but that only happens if you buy a species that spreads by runners – there are many types that grow in a neat, tight clump and don’t spread out much.)
The Japanese, natch, have small, simple gardens for awkward spaces down to an art form. Google “Japanese courtyard garden” to get some ideas.
Just Some Fuckhead
@ET:
Junk. The stuff I ordered for my backporch dry rotted in about a year.
Constance
I have a friend whose patio is decomposed granite (we live in Nevada) with a table and chairs. There is a product called Stabilizer you can mix with decomposed granite or sand or very small gravel ( I’m forgetting the term) and it makes a great surface tough enough for horses to walk on. It’s used a lot for paths in parks.