Just curious how many of you are watching them. Game of Thrones is turning out to be great, and Camelot is campy and fun, but the one that surprised me is the Borgias. I wasn’t sure I was going to like it, because I find so many of the characters lacking. I don’t like either of the sons, either the Cardinal who really should stop trying to grow facial hair or the younger commander of the Papal guard. What has made the show for me, though is Lucrezia and King Charles. The fellow playing the King, Michel Muller, is just great. For some reason, I think he steals every scene.
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velouria
I don’t have Starz so I haven’t seen Camelot, but I’m watching both Game of Thrones and The Borgias.
Game of Thrones is amazing, and I’m glad it’s doing justice to one of my favorite series of books.
The Borgias is pretty damn good as well, and you’re totally on the money about King Charles. Such a great character and performance.
13th Generation
GOT, no. Borgias, yes. King Charles is great, Jeremy Irons is excellent as well.
Eric S.
Watching GoT and more or less loving it.
I’ve read and reread the books several times. I often find myself with the thought “that’s not how it went in the book.” Still, I know it’s a different medium with different requirements so I take them more or less in stride.
Athenae
Watching GOT, trying to start some Galactica-style discussion threads over at First Draft. I’m re-reading all the books in preparation for the next one coming out in July, so can I just say, without spoiling anything for anyone, that Robb Stark is a stone fox in the show? In the books he’s supposed to be 15, but I’ve decided that on TV he’s like 20 and it’s not pervy at all.
A.
Caren
Camelot Started off well, and then just went to hell. I’m a couple weeks behind on my DVR, and I’m not sure if I’m going to bother.
maye
Jeremy Irons is splendid as Rodrigo. If you’re looking to fill in some historical gaps (and corrections) before the 2012 season, Christopher Hibbert’s book “The Borgias and their Enemies” is a good read.
Twisted Martini
Loving GOT. I turned it on at the recommendation of my brother who has been raving about the books. I turned my HBO back on and am really glad I did. And HBO Go is an added bonus.
Zifnab
I thought the first few episodes of GoT were a bit rushed and rocky. It felt like you needed to read the book to really grasp what was going on. But now that the show has hit its stride, the intrigue comes out more naturally and the story moves at a better pace.
I’m loving it.
Haven’t seen Camelot. Roommate watches Borgias and just likes all the pretty girls.
prufrock
Tyrion Lannister’s “confession” last night was one of the most awesome things I’ve ever seen on TV. Can they just had Peter Dinklage an Emmy now?
geg6
Not watching any of them. Don’t have Showtime or Starz any more and GoT is NOT my cup of tea.
I am, however, anxiously awaiting the new season of True Blood, though. Love me some True Blood.
Tim, Interrupted
I agree John: Lucrezia, and the actor who plays her, are intriguing and beguiling. But how can you pass mentioning Jeremy Irons, who dominates the proceedings as the Pope, even when he is off screen?
Off the top of my head, is the King you’re referring to the short French dude with the slithery accent? haha He’s wonderfully disgusting!
David
So since I have absolutely no ability to be patient, I decided to record all the episodes of GoT and watch once the season is completed. Does anyone else do this?
Athenae
Ooh, Jeremy Irons is in the Borgias? I may have to catch it up.
A.
rikyrah
The Borgias
ROCK
I love it.
absolutely love it.
geg6
@David:
I am ashamed to admit it, but I like Glee and I wait for the DVDs to come out on Netflix and watch them all at once. I’ve never once seen Glee in a regular airing.
jeffreyw
Yes to the Borgias, and Game, no to Camelot. Most excellent adventures, both.
Grand Wazoo
GOT is great, the wife and I watch it every week, but damn, it can be so heavy some times. It’s like we have to watch an episode of Family Guy or South Park afterwards to lighten the mood. Also too, did anyone else try to to use HBO GO to watch episode 7? It crashed on us and we couldn’t restart it, it kept logging me off. :(
13th Generation
Kind of amused by the crazy son of the king of Naples on the Borgias as well.
Some Guy
Love the Borgias. Amazing production. Micheletto (the assassin) steals any scene he is in.
GoT is terrific. Gets better each episode. Liking the Borgias more actually, but both are great TV. Nothing can bring out the depth of the books, obviously, but I think they are doing a bang up job adapting a very complicated narrative. The added exposition scenes have been in the style of the books, and the simplifications have not been too bad.
No Camelot to speak of.
Tom Hilton
@prufrock: I would actually watch the Emmys if a) they nominated Dinklage, and b) showed that monologue. Turtle soup all around!
bryanD
I, CLAUDIVS OR BUST!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tebTGIddPDk
Bud
The Borgias is a terrific show. After “The Tudors” (which was fun in that way watching great costumes and amazing sets can be fun) I was leary of another historical drama on Showtime. But the writing is sharp, the acting (Lucretzia is an amazing actress) is top-notch and the drama is incredible.
LGRooney
I so want to see all of them but so do not want to pay Comcast more money to get it all.
IrishGirl
I am watching GOT but not Borgia’s or Camelot. I would have thought someone would have done the Borgia’s before…the history of that family being so rich with intrigue and sexual peccadilloes. Alas, my TV viewing time is limited so I narrowed it down to only committing to one show.
Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac
Watched the first episode of Camelot, thought it was campy and boring. Haven’t seen Borgias (AC:B was a fun take on their story), and still watching GOT.
Good to hear people are still watching GoT, I keep hearing people call it too boring and uninteresting to continue watching it. I think these people should go watch Camelot instead, where characters are caracatures and the events around the characters are more important than the characters themselves. But if you enjoy character driven stories, it doesn’t get much better than GOT.
Tom Hilton
@Grand Wazoo: I know what you mean. We watch Treme immediately after, which isn’t exactly a mood-lightener (well, sometimes it is, but mostly not); if I stayed up late enough to watch The Killing, Sunday evenings would be a huge downer…
ETA: try the xfinity site. Reportedly, people who had no luck with HBOGo were successful in watching it there.
JGabriel
@Athenae:
I think the show-runners made the concious decision to bump up most of the characters’ ages by 25-45%, or at least the kids’ ages. Bran, for example, is 7 in the books, but it’s repeatedly stated that he’s 10 in the show. Sansa is supposed to be 13, but is clearly being played as 15-16. Dany is 14 in the books, but appears to be somewhere between 17 and 20 on the show. And so on.
Frankly, I think that was a good choice. Even in the books I get the feeling that the younger characters are behaving above their ages, as if the Westeros years are longer than ours.
.
Dr. Loveless
Loving GoT. I’ve read the book and the TV adaptation is as good as any I’ve seen. And last nights “golden crown” scene was everything I hoped for. Viserys = what a git.
themis
My 3 fav shows in one post? Love…
GoT – I adored the first episode so much, I read the damn book before the second episode. Inconsistencies, sure. But who cares. I’m not watching to see what happens, but how it happens. This show reaches Deadwood, Spartacus and Rome levels of love.
Borgias – amazing cast. Irons is a god and probably the only thing saving this show. I’m watching it the same way I watched The Tudors – ignoring the part of my brain that knows history and enjoying the pretty. The actor playing Lucrezia is just ethereal (much like Dany in GoT).
Camelot – campy fun. Morgan just eats the scenery. The costume folks watched way too much Flash Gordon since she looks more like Morgan the Merciless than a well-healed woman of the early centuries.
And yes, I do love my history televised, slightly inaccurate and naked.
Yutsano
No haz TV, so no iz watching. And I have yet to see any reason to pay the extortion rate for cable.
Yevgraf (fka Michael)
I tried, really really tried to like the Borgias. In the past, I’ve read about them, studied them, enjoyed them and found them interesting characters in history.
Watching the first episode was so boring I couldn’t finish it – it was like watching paint peel.
It would totally work as an 8 hour miniseries. This, not so much.
Culture of Truth
The only One I’ve seen is Borgias. I don’t think you’re suppose to like any of the characters very much, but I agree Lucrezia is well-played and the most intriguing.
JGabriel
John Cole @ Top:
Camelot has Eva Green.
.
aimai
@David:
I’m reading the books now–started a week or so ago and am just finishing up the fourth book. I won’t see the actual show until we can buy it on DVD and watch the whole season on our time. Its a pain to do it that way, but we don’t buy any cable channels or watch any tv in real time. I miss being able to talk about shows in real time–I’m always a year or two behind and don’t want to spoil the big denoument of things like dexter. But, on the other hand, I really prefer not being held down to the once a week schedule of most shows.
aimai
johnsmith1882
@prufrock:
Ha, yeah, I wanted to hear what happened with that donkey and honeycomb, too. Best scene in what to date is the best episode so far. Question to anyone who has read the book: who is the man who stood in as champion for the Imp? We first see him when the Imp meets Lady Stark at the inn. The Imp offers anyone a piece of gold in exchange for his room. This man accepts, and the Imp says, “Now there’s a smart man.” Next we see him with the party as they make their way to the Vale, when they are attacked by brigands (or whatever), and after the fight, he says to the Imp, “You need a woman,” or something to that effect. And then he is there at the sky castle, and when the Imp is giving his confession, when the Imp says, “I am not one for fighting, but have a way of convincing others to fight for me,” the camera goes to him, foreshadowingly. Does the Imp know him from before? Or am I reading too much into the subtle clues, after rewatching all the episodes. By the way, I think I figured out what will trigger Bran’s memory of his getting pushed out the window.
Michael Hall
Am starting to enjoy “Game of Thrones” very much, in spite of my considerable preference for SF over fantasy. (I’m old enough to remember a time when George R.R. Martin was best known for his SF novella “A Song For Lya,” which won him a Hugo in 1974.)
I’m really hoping that HBO can someday bring to the SF genre the what it brought to the Western in “Deadwood.”
aimai
@Grand Wazoo:
I was wondering about this since I’m in the book. The book is so dark, so unredeemably dark. Every chapter ends with a cliff hanger or a terrible betrayal. In the book you get about five seconds of the kind of cheerful feasting and wenching and bosomy jewlery flashing that most people seem to want from a costume drama and then the rest is straight into death, mold, rape, maggots and zombies. I’m looking forward to the series, I guess, but the book is so painful I’m not sure how I’ll be able to stand seeing it on the big screen. I mean, what about Tyrion’s nose? Or flashbacks to his first wife?
aimai
Some Guy
@Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac: I wondered about the pacing for those not familiar with the books. It is not an action packed story, it is really about character in a vicious, power-crazed world. I am most pleased they are attempting to stay true to that.
I also appreciate how no character is safe in those books. Bad shit happens to people all the time. Should make for some interesting TV since the security of people is really not very dependable. Normally important characters are harmed or killed off sparingly. That will be especially fun next season and the third if they get that far.
My only real complaint about the show so far is that the Mountain was not as fearsome as I had hoped. The horse thing was crazy, but I just did not get the monster feel from him they way I had hoped. And Sandor is not featuring, which is a shame because he is the only aspect of Sansa’s story that I find remotely compelling. Never liked her character, but I appreciated the world as seen from her position.
johnsmith1882
@Dr. Loveless:
I was just talking with a friend of mine who has read the books about him. I was saying how much he was just asking for it, and my friend gave a little Mona Lisa smile. I guess now I know why. And the Khaleesi is a total badass (and fox).
aimai
@johnsmith1882:
In the book its a sellsword name Bronn.
aimai
Culture of Truth
We knew J. Irons would be good, but he’s taking it to another level here. He’s like some caged, trapped rodent, ravenous and yet thin, like his ambition is eating him up from the inside.
Some Guy
@johnsmith1882: The sellsword from the Inn is Bronn. He becomes an important secondary character relative to the Imp. I wish they would have given just one more dialogue bit between the Imp and Bronn so you could see that relationship develop before the “trial.” Bronn is a dangerous cuss.
johnsmith1882
@aimai:
A man who sells swords named Bronn?
aimai
@aimai:
Oops, no, I think that must be wrong. I think Bronn is someone Tyrion meets after escaping from the Vale? Jeebus, I just finished that book a week ago and I’m already confused. I actually had to check the wiki on the series once to figure out what was going on but that told me too much about what would happen later.
Some Guy
@johnsmith1882: Mercenary.
Some Guy
@aimai: Nope, it is Bronn. He joined Catelyn’s party and Tyrion wins him over with humor and promises of gold.
Sly
The metallic “thud” heard 10 seconds or so before last nights episode of GoT ended was, perhaps, the most awesome sound that ever emanated from my television.
aimai
@Some Guy:
Thanks SomeGuy. I’ve been speeding through these books and I don’t have anyone to talk to about them. I’m totally out of the loop because no one I know these days would read something like this. So sad, really. My only criticism/regret about them is that Martin can’t quite make it to the heights of balzackian or tolstoyan writing because he is doing an amazing job of trying to run the social scales from the top to the bottom of society, giving (some) voice to almost everyone including children, peasants, and women. He’s certainly giving voice and humanity to some of the worst people–like Sandor Clegane and Cersei while, at the same time, showing that some with the worst reputation (Tyrion) are misunderstood or merely hated for their appearance and their failure to fit prescribed social roles.
aimai
jayjaybear
@Dr. Loveless: Actually, Viserys is now a “got”, not a “git”. That’s the best scene in A Game of Thrones, just delicious karma.
@johnsmith: A sell-sword is a mercenary. A fighter for money. Kills who you want him to kill…um, sorry. I was momentarily possessed by Tina Turner…
johnsmith1882
@Some Guy:
Ok, roger that. Yeah, a little something to explain why he went along with the party to the Vale would have been nice. I had him confused with the guy from the Wall who the Imp was traveling with when they went to the inn, cuz they look kinda similar, but then after rewatching it, they have different armor (and, you know, faces).
Mike in NC
Somebody described HBO’s “Game of Thrones” as “Lord of the Rings” as imagined by the Playboy Channel. Good stuff.
Legalize
Mrs. Legalize and I are pretty much loving GOT. Lots of fascinating characters with complicated political and personal motivations, and resentments. Even the characters we’re not really supposed to like are complex and somewhat relateable – Jamie Lanister for instance. That actor really lights it up as far as I’m concerned. As do the actors portraying the other two Lanister siblings. It’s probably no accident that those three are the most accomplished actors in the series.
The character work, and story structure has a definite Sopranos-esque vibe. I can see this series developing over many years and being quite successful like the Sopranos.
We missed last night’s episode, so we’re looking forward to checking it out tonight.
mohagan
@prufrock: True this! Great show, and he’s the best thing in it. I also like how the character of Dani the Khaleesi is evolving.
Some Guy
@aimai: I agree – Martin is really good at making seemingly singular characters more complex, and he often does it slowly. There are some like Joffrey who just what they seem. But others, even ones you really want to hate or to like are complicated. If you get to the third book, I think it is the better than the 1st and 2nd because the majesty of the story starts to really take over. Have not read the 4th, so many people have panned it I am having trouble mustering the courage to start it. Anybody else read it and have an opinion?
aimai
@Mike in NC:
Well, no. There’s almost no politics in Lord of the Rings–no marital alliances, no economy of war, no real discussion of poverty, taxes, and royalty and certainly no religion. The ring and Sauron are, essentially, huge maguffins that set the action in motion. Everyone’s goal is the same–whether to get the ring or destroy the ring, to aid sauron or to destroy him. Its one big story.
Since its one big story each person is understood primarily in terms of his/her relationship to that big story. There are some key moments when each actor must discover whether he will be true to his imagining of himself (hero, villain) basically no one turns from one to the other except Gollum. Peripheral characters all accept their peripheral nature and submit to having their stories truncated, and their lives, in pursuit of the big goal.
But in GOT the action starts in the middle of a story which constantly informs people’s intentions, hopes, dreams and capabilities. Everyone’s position at the start of the book is informed by past actions (who they killed, who they slept with) and each person is given a different goal which is entirely selfish. The action and the storytelling cut back and forth between different perspectives and egos. What seems reasonable one moment seems unreasonable the next, what seems unforgiveable one moment (Jaime’s killing of his king) seems praiseworthy the next. The “goal” of winning the throne seems almost absurd given the amount of death and destruction that ensues after Robert’s death and the killing of Eddard Stark. There can’t be any kind of generic catharsis or resolution given the way the entire story is set up.
aimai
JGabriel
@David:
You are not alone, but I can’t do it with GoT. I’m too impatient to see what happens next on that one, even though I’ve already read the book.
.
aimai
@Some Guy:
I’m in the mid.el of the fourth. I think you should read it. I’m actually liking it as much or better than the third. I can see why people might not like it because you have to worry that Martin just doesn’t know how to bring his story to a conclusion and is going to keep writing until he or his readership drops. He has been so profligate with story lines and characters–killing off people you thought would be present until the end, killing off hope that some minor characters (like Sansa or Arya) would ever get the revenge you long for them to get. In that sense he’s violated the trust that the reader wants to have that all those loose ends will be tied up and that you can anticipate the pacing: event, outrage, grief, vengeance, catharsis, resolution.
On the other hand, he is still capable of introducing new characters and fleshing out old plot lines and it feels as though he is slowly drawing characters and plot points together in time and space. Peripheral characters are crossing in real life and information is being shared across space, time, and characters (one of the interesting things in the book is the attention he pays to the fact that in a medieval tech world people just don’t have good information on what is happening at a distance).
Since the fifth book is coming out and you liked the first three I’d say you might as well read the fourth. It is enjoyable and the characters are continuing to spin out of control. Here’s hoping that he has an actual plan for how to bring all these different plot lines together in the fifth or sixth book.
aimai
El Cid
Another monarch is being challenged by commoners.
First, I’m wondering if everyone’s just given up thinking of words and just pulls out “scathing tell-all” from the office blandifier?
Second, I’m quite sure that Bailey’s own e-mail won’t be hacked, and that he won’t receive any harassing phone calls, and that his kids (if any) won’t be bothered at school, and that his yard will be fine.
PS: A lot of fun quotes:
aimai
@El Cid:
Do you think this is why she is (rumored) to be planning to move down to AZ? To prevent anyone else from being able to claim to be her neighbor/co-worker/associate as she tries to position herself for whatever comes next? Pretty soon she’s going to be complaining that the entire of Alaska has backstabbed her and she had to quit the state. This kind of tell all book and public interview is going to dog her from now on as people in her home state feel less and less invested in her success and fear her less and less.
aimai
Some Guy
@aimai: I’ll do it. Yeah, very much want Arya’s story to turn into something. She has been in suspension for so long.
Dr. Loveless
@jayjaybear:
Oh, yes — I’d been waiting for that scene. Although Tyrion bitch-slapping Prince Little Shit in episode 2 was also deeply satisfying. Hell, any scene with Tyrion in it is made of win.
Tom Hilton
@Some Guy: I think Feast for Crows is the weakest of the four so far, but that’s purely in relative terms–it’s still pretty damn good. A lot of the criticism is that it seems to focus on stuff that’s peripheral to the primary storylines, and I remember thinking that the first time, but on rereading it I thought it was all more tied in than it appeared.
kindness
GOT here. I’m giving it mostly two thumbs up except some of the maniacal personality traits of some of the ruling class. I suspect it is part of the story but if I really wanted more of that I’d just watch Fox News regularly.
Sophia
Curses. I just couldn’t stop reading even though the threat of spoilers was so great.
wonkie
I’m having a little trouble with the first book in the GOT series. As someone commented up thread, too dark. That’s just my reaction: life is tough enough without depressing myself with a depressig novel.
I’m anxiously awaiting the return of True Blood. Lots of angst and heartbreak and violence there but it’s all so over the top that I don’t get upset by it.
Crashman
@wonkie: Yeah if you think the first one is depressing, you shouldn’t read the third.
djork
True fact: I was high school friends with Peter Dinklage’s wife. I did not realize this until GOT started and I was googling his resume to see if he was the same guy who gave the hilarious “dwarf- dream sequence” monologue in Living in Oblivion. (He is.)
Caladan
I have to agree on the Borgias, the characters feel hollow, the Timeline is not handled well, and I just want to punch the actor who plays Juan. King Charles is defiantly the highlight of the series so far.
aimai
@djork:
Is Peter Dinklage the guy who was in the Station Agent? Because I was hoping he would be cast to play Miles Vorkosigan if someone every decides to put the Vorkosigan Saga on the small screen as a BSG replacement.
aimai
Dr. Loveless
@aimai:
Yes.
I’m a fellow Little Person, and it’s really nice to see a dwarf actor become well-known for something besides comic relief. And yeah, he would make an awesome Miles Vorkosigan.
JGabriel
@aimai:
Yes.
.
Shinobi
I’m watching GOT and Camelot. I like Game of Thrones, but I have not read the books as I only like to read things that have endings. I feel like an ending is important before a narrative can really be good, and those books are just so long, and I only care about 2 of a billion characters. Meh. But watching the show is very entertaining and does not take up as much of my time. For the first time in my life I think I will just watch the show and forget the books.
I hate the Camelot story line, usually, but I’m enjoying this adaptation. They turn a lot of things on their head and it is interesting how almost realistic the stories become. I love Merlin, and Morgan. Unfortunately as usual I am nearly constantly suppressing a desire to thump Arthur and Gueneviere.
aimai
@Dr. Loveless:
Well, maybe his success with Tyrion’s role will give someone the bright idea of finally doing a Vorkosigan Series. Given how hard it would be to cast Miles otherwise (unless they gave the role to some kind of Frodo style mixture of costume trickery and foreshortening filming) they really need to do it before Dinklage ages out of being able to play young miles.
aimai
Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac
@Dr. Loveless: Tyrion is the best character transition between the Book and the TV show, mostly thanks to Dinklage understanding the character so well. Every scene with Tyrion in it have been my favorites. If he doesn’t win some sort of award for this series, it will be a crime.
Also, started reading the Fourth book over the weekend, and I think HBO has their hands full if they make it that far, trying to keep a television audience captivated with that many new characters, especially after 3 seasons of Stark centric storytelling. I wouldn’t be surprised if they combined the 4th and 5th books into a single season, or turned the fourth book’s new characters into a web series between 3 and 5.
John Weiss
One of the many impressive things about the Game of Thrones is the marvelous script, which, of course, is not the intricate work RailRoad wrote, but is remarkably true to the spirit of his books. And, where did all the superlative actors come from?
My wife and I are thoroughly enjoying this series. To our delight, it’s going to continue for at least another season.
If you don’t know RR’s work, he’s written one of the finest fantasies anyone ever wrote: The Infinity Concerto series. Which would make a fine miniseries as well.
fasteddie9318
Camelot kills me because I love the Arthur story (minus some of the Romantic padding), feel like nobody has ever gotten it right on film, and this ain’t it. Surely there’s a better way to use Eva Green and Joseph Fiennes’ talents than this.
jayjaybear
@Dr. Loveless: Aaaand the username snaps into place in my head… :0D
Jamey: Bike Commuter of the Gods
@Mike in NC:
I’m afraid, given the quality of Playboy Channel fare, the description is apt.
aimai
@Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac:
Good idea, AK. I really think that given the complexity of the plotless plotting of the first four novels it makes more sense to think of the books as a jumping off point for the TV series. Dexter the series is fantastic and deviates massively from the novels which are both darker and more one dimensional than the series. I don’t get the feeling, from reading what little fan stuff I’ve read on Game of Thrones, that people are all that wedded to a particular series of events being portrayed. Hell, its so confusing that, as I said upthread, I had to resort to a wiki in the middle of reading the first four books just to try to remember the order/significance of a character and event. That being the case maybe the cast members and the script writers can come up with something that is parallel to, or even better than, the novels themselves.
aimai
fasteddie9318
Also too, if people don’t care for Juan Borgia, depending on how the show handles his timeline they might not have to deal with it much longer. Never rub another man’s rhubarb, and all. They condensed years of Cem Sultan’s life into a single episode (and then invented an attempted conversion and his death, which pisses me off but w/e), so they might be similarly accelerating other stuff.
Jay in Oregon
Really, who hasn’t wanted to do a Kickstarter project exactly like this just to see who’d nibble?
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/5/23/
Jay in Oregon
Speaking of Peter Dinklage, I just (re-)watched Threshold, CBS’ entry into the alien invasion series along with with ABC’s Invasion and NBC’s Surface. He’s in that along with Brent Spiner, Charles S. Dutton and Carla Guigino.
Damn, I wish that series had hit its stride sooner.
Eric k
GOT is awesome. The Borgias is way better than I expected, but then it is by Neil Jordan so probably shouldn’t be surprised. I agree with you on Camelot. I think one problem is only James Purefoy, Joseph Finnes and Eva Green seem to realize it is good campy fun. It is a shame that the story got rid of Lot so soon, but at the same time having Purefoy on screen just emphasizes what a nothing the actor playing Arthur is so I guess it was a must.
For another new series, is anyone else as bored by The Killing as me? The long form cable series can be a great alternative to the typical network, show the crime through the trial in 1 hour Law and Order stuff, but come on there is deeper and slow paved and there is glacial. The format seems to be 1 clue a week. spoilers galore…anyone with a functioning brain knew the teacher was a red herring, they’ve drawn that out for what 5 episodes now? And two Mystic River style, get revenge on the wrong guy scenes? at the rate their going RosievLarson’s younger brothers will die of old age before they get to the real killer.
Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac
@Eric k: The Killing certainly has dragged. The first 3 episodes were well paced and interesting, now they’re just filling time before revealing the whodunit.
The red herrings are rampant, and needlessly so. A solid procedural that was slower paced was working really well, especially with some of the great characters. Now, they’ve become more enamored with distractions and romantic subplots that are seemingly unrelated to the actual murder.
Also, is anyone else really offended by the “Now, Log on to the Killing website and guess who did it!” tone taken for the advertising for a show that (mostly) dealt with it’s subject matter so straight faced? Just seemed so, gross. The series, if anything, was a love letter to detectives and those left behind by a murder, and such exploitive advertising seemed to miss the whole point.
moe99
@aimai:
Thank you for this, aimai. Good reasons to stay with the GOT series. I am just blown away by the excellence of the script. David Benioff, the scriptwriter and producer, wrote a highly regarded book, City of Thieves, based upon his grandfather’s experiences staying alive in Leningrad during the Nazi siege in WW2. I put a hold on it at the library and am looking forward to it.
You Don't Say
@Eric k: I’ve lost interest with each episode, but am hoping it will pick up in the final four. I want more of the male detective and think the woman detective is the weak link, both as a written character and as an actor.
Eric k
Agora and you don’t say
I think there is a fine line between surprise twist ending that is earned and just random twist thrown in at the end. A lot of bad crime fiction is he latter, I hope they redeem themselves with a solution that fits.
Ian McEwan says suspense is simply with-held information from the reader, but to me the key is the information had to be there all along, basically it was under your nose and when the reveal occurs you can say “of course!”
HCE
Prufrock +1: Peter Dinklage owns every scene he’s been in on Thrones and his character is nothing short of awesome: the guy who somehow manages to end up on the right side of the struggle between good and evil, despite conscious and persistently bad intentions. (Haven’t read the books, so I don’t know how long this lasts.)
DavidS
Game of Thrones is, so far, excellent! But as a fan of the novels, I expected that! The Borgias is also, so far, quite excellent. But that is a surprise, as I didn’t expect it to be such.
Camelot, however, is lousy in my humble opinion. Beautifully shot, but the dialog and the scripts (so far, at least) are embarassingly simplistic and boring..
DFH no.6
Limited TV watching here (sports and HBO, mostly, with some occasional Rachel and Jon Stewart). So, no Camelot or Borgias. GoT, yes.
I’ve been an avid reader of fantasy and sci-fi since the sixties, and Martin’s Song of Ice and Fire is among the very best of the genre (IMHO, it is the best, though YMMV). As long as he finishes it, that is. And I liked the fourth book every bit as much as the other three. In fact, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed every chapter of all four books, tangential characters and storylines included (like the Iron Islands and Dorne subplots).
HBO’s adaptation has been quite good – probably about as good (with exceptions) as is feasible. Some fairly minor quibbles, mostly, for someone who loves the books (the direwolves, for instance, have so far been given short-shrift). The books are just too dense and detailed to be completely faithfully rendered on the screen.
My biggest disappointment has been the depiction of the Dothraki. Not particularly faithful to the books, and, to me, well below the quality of the rest of the series.
The way the Dothraki have been shown displays all the bad tendencies of fantasy/sci-fi depictions of “primitives” that have rightfully given the genre a bad rap on TV and in movies (other than the T&A, the Dothraki stuff looks right out of Star trek or Stargate or whatever).
The latest episode may have been the worst in that regard (though the earlier ridiculous seaside – of all places for Dothraki – Dany/Drogo wedding was also pretty cringe-inducing). All the swaying and ululations and chanting in Klingon (I know) in the last episode were just silly.
Danaerys and Viserys and Jorah Mormount have been great; Khal Drogo (really, what’s with the eyeliner?) and the rest, not so much.
I just find HBO’s version of the Dothraki to be embarrassing and, well, trite, which is not how I find them in the books. Maybe it would help if they could CGI in a mounted horde – so far, Drogo’s khalasar seems more like a small raiding party made of random unrelated brownish people (another poorly-done aspect of the HBO Dothraki) than a fearsome force of 40,000 screaming nomadic warriors.
agorabum
@Yevgraf (fka Michael): I had doubts about the Borgias as well, and actually only jumped into mid-way through the season. I think that actually helped; it feels like a series that picked up steam. Plus: King of France added a great character and took the plot action up a notch.
befuggled
I’m holding off until Martin finishes the damn books.
r
going against the tide, game of thrones is just a little bit better than boring and ned stark so far seems to be a pretty dumb guy. overall the acting is wooden or stereotypical for all but 2 characters. or maybe its the characters themselves that are stereotypical…
that said ive watched them all and will watch the rest. i have not read the books.
satch
Love GOT as well. It also helps that Jenifer D. Braun of nj.com does a great re-cap of each episode, since I have yet to read the books, and the story is, shall we say, heavily populated with characters. Wish my wife liked it, but she got all huffy at the nudity, and doesn’t go for fantasy, so all my discussions will have to be online.
cinesimon
@Eric k:
Yeah you may not know, but The Killing is a franchise, and complete copy of, an Danish TV series called Forbrydelsen, which is really great. Also taking place over a long-ish(relatively) period of time, it’s made so much better in every way. Of course it’s original, so it’s always going to seem more ‘fresh’.
What’s more, I simply enjoy exploring other cultures through shows like this.
Te myriad of new Scandinavian crime shows, and the novels that they’re based on(the better books, and their authors, now even have cult status), are a great representation of the culture of the people there.
DFH no.6
@befuggled:
Book 5 is out this July. Book 6 (so Martin says) is partially done, as part of writing Book 5. Book 7 is supposed to wrap it up.
I say 4, maybe 5 years.
For HBO to continue the series all the way through would take 7-9 seasons. I’m hoping they don’t pull a Carnivale.
Joseph Nobles
@aimai: “the amount of death and destruction that ensues after…”
JESUS CHRIST SPOILERS ALREADY.
Jill
I really, really wanted to like the Borgias, but yes, it is like watching paint peel, Jeremy Irons notwithstanding.
Camelot started out as Abercrombie & Fitch Models At the Renaissance Faire, but it’s gotten better. Eva Green is great, so is Fiennes the Younger, whom I’ve never liked before but he’s a marvelous Merlin. The rest of them are all interchangeable pretty boys, but nice to look at.
But ah, Game of Thrones. I’m not even a fantasy geek, and I adore this show. I’ve never read the books, which helps me discover these stories on their own merits without comparing them. So much to watch, so little time.
Nice to see two of my favorite series of all time, I, Claudius and Carnévale mentioned. I keep thinking it’s only a matter of time before someone remakes Claudius (despite the 1975 version’s definitiveness). Helen Mirren is a cinch for Livia, but how would everyone cast the rest of the remake?
aimai
@Joseph Nobles:
Oops. Sorry! It actually sounded to me like the TV series had breezed through the first book and I didn’t imagine that anything I said would be a spoiler. I do apologize.
Also, I also want to give a shout out to Carnevale, one of the great (if truncated) TV series of all time. It was really heartbreaking that they ended it without finishing it.
aimai
the idler
@Jill: Charlie Sheen as Emperor Caligula.
Jill
@aimai: I went through literal physical withdrawal when Carnevale wasn’t renewed. I wrote to its creator and got a nice e-mail in return with some info about what the visiion for the 3 “books” (9 seasons) was. I could still just cry.
Joseph Nobles
@aimai: No sweat. Everything you spoiled is lining up, it seems.
I am supposed to hate Khal Drogo and Daenerys, right? They are supposed to be the bad guys, right? Because I tell you, from the miniseries, I’m totally rooting for them. I’m like, “Hatch some dragons and let’s GO.” The only people I may be rooting for more is John Snow and Tyrion Lannister.
Maxwell James
@Joseph Nobles: No, you’re not. Root for them all you like. Your rooting interests will occasionally get upended, but that’s all part of the fun.
billy rae valentine
@Jill:
holy god. if you have an e-mail describing what the story from Carnivale was going to ultimately be, can you please share it?
that’s one of my favorite shows of all time.
Damned at Random
Is this still a live thread?
I’m watching GOT and The Borgias – the spousal unit is hooked on both of them, too, which is a major surprise. He generally doesn’t like anything set earlier than the US civil war and thinks fantasy is a waste of time. We are also LOVING the Killing on AMC.
Jeremy Irons has certainly aged well. He was pretty conventionally handsome as a young man, but his face has worn so well- he really convinces me that he has known tragedy and sold his soul for power. Gives a new dimension to his considerable acting prowess.
GOT is wonderful- the supporting cast is completely unknown to me and uniformly wonderful.
I didn’t know there was a Camelot series. I was a major fan of MAry Stewart’s Merlin books. I’ll have to check it out
DFH no.6
@billy rae valentine:
If I had to pick a single favorite TV series (going back to watching the original run of Twilight Zone in the late fifties, early sixties when I was just a lad), it would be Carnivale, even though it sadly ended smack in the middle of the story. (and I, Claudius is right up there, too; can’t believe it was on over 35 years ago!)
Game of Thrones has the potential to be that good (based on Martin’s books) but isn’t there yet.
For instance, the shock of Viserys’ death by molten gold in GoT should have been similar to the shock experienced in Carnivale when you realize Preacher Crowe (played by the wonderful Clancy Brown) is the one who deliberately burned the children to death at his parish house. But it’s not. GoT on HBO still needs to move up a few notches to approach the level of Carnivale (or the level of the books).
And I’ll second that request to Jill: if you have something from Carnivale’s creator describing how the story would unfold after the show was cancelled, I’d love to see it.
Since I’m skeptical that HBO will see Martin’s Ice and Fire (his overall name for the story) through to the end, at least we’ll have the books (if he ever finishes them, that is).