“Sexuality and sexual orientation are gifts from God…”
Representative Steve Simon (D-Awesome) unsuccessfully argues against Republican efforts to put a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage on the 2012 ballot:
How many more gay people does God have to create before we ask ourselves whether God actually wants them around?
Shorter: God will set yo ass on fire, so stop being an asshat.
[cross-posted at that place you like]
Bubblegum Tate
The fundie response will merely be that gays “choose” to be gay, therefore it’s gays’ fault, not God’s, that they’re gay, and if they wanted to get right with God, they’d pray the gay away (which totally works!).
Still, it’s pretty cool that Simon said that.
Emma
Bravo! Not that the god-botherers will listen, but it took brass ones to put that on the record.
matryoshka
Steve Simon is the king of my world today. I hope this gets widely distributed.
Bill
If there were a god this argument would have some legs.
arguingwithsignposts
“skateboarding or gardening.” ok, that’s awesome in and of itself. Of course, the option to punch these fuckers in the neck. hmmm. we should have a congressional hearing on that.
Chris
@Bubblegum Tate:
Another argumentum ad idiocy. If people simply “chose” to be gay, the “problem” of gayness would never have arisen: the way most societies have treated homosexuals throughout history would have been deterrent enough.
But yes, I too was thankful someone finally came out and said it.
Muley Graves
Oh my word, a Democrat who understands how to fight Republicans.
I expect efforts to primary him are already under way from the pearl-clutchers who whine about “taking the high road” and other such winning strategies that resulted in our massive electoral gains in 2010.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
I love his statement, but it did get me thinking: Why did God create so many idiots?
asiangrrlMN
YAY. Glad that a non-idiot from my state gets some circulation.
MoneyGal
He seems genuine. I hope more people see this.
Culture of Truth
God: “Don’t make me come down there! Glee is on!”
Villago Delenda Est
He’s got a very wicked sense of humor, I suppose.
nancydarling
ABL, I saw this yesterday. Did the Minnesota house vote to put this on the ballot anyway?
Dennis SGMM
@Chris:
No one in his or her right mind would choose to be gay. My gay brother told me that years ago.
gogol's wife
I hope this guy has presidential ambitions. He wasn’t even using a teleprompter! Lovely clip.
geg6
I’ve never heard of him before but I now heart Steve Simon.
Mrs. Bitch
Jesus never married, did he? Hmmmmmmm.
Jay C
@Bill:
By Intelligent Design, or does it have to evolve them on its own?
reflectionephemeral
@Dennis SGMM:
Yeah, I recall hearing the same thing from a friend, who wryly said something like, “improved fashion sense and an appreciation for Madonna, versus I could not freak my mom out and could live in my hometown. Yeah, I know which way I would have chosen.”
It sure seems to me that being white, male, and straight is an awful lot easier than the alternatives. We can think about sexuality, ethnicity, and gender at our leisure. It doesn’t work that way for everyone, from what I understand.
Thanks for the post, I hadn’t seen this.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Bubblegum Tate:
that is fine, tie them to that post. make them say that the only way their entire view of homosexuality makes sense, is if gay is a behavior, not innate.
then, it becomes about the evidence. religion loses politically when it has to argue against science. overall, i mean, outside of the 27 percent.
put the 27 percent on an island, and they become powerless. its only because they can somewhat pull from people for whom their nuttiness is convenient, that they have any power.
Old Dan and Little Ann
Please keep applause to yourselves. What a douche.
cyntax
That was five kinds of awesome sauce.
I really loved how he asked the people to reflect about this at some point in the future, away from the capitol–shows a real commitment to trying to change people’s minds (futile as it may be).
MikeJ
@Mrs. Bitch: There was also that naked guy with him in the garden. (Mark 14)
MagicPanda
I thought the gentleman’s speech was fantastic, but I didn’t find his sound bite compelling.
God (if you believe in him) creates lots of things, good and bad. For example, war has been around since the beginning of time. Does that mean we ask ourselves whether God wants war?
Am I missing something?
Dennis SGMM
@Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal:
Put the 27 percent on an island and they would immediately start determining who was the most pure. The less pure would be killed and eaten while the remainder would bitch about how long the government had delayed in rescuing them.
Davis X. Machina
You didn’t stop that sentence in time.
Don’t drive that way.
Omnes Omnibus
@MagicPanda: You found it to be awesome. Isn’t that enough sometimes? Does it have to be perfect? It’s a great argument. It doesn’t have to fit every situation, but, by god, it would be a good conversation stopper in the right situation.
MikeJ
@MagicPanda: The arguments for every religion are ridiculous if it’s not something you already believe. There’s no reason to let one side make all the unsupportable arguments. And if they don’t like the good guys making unsupportable arguments, that is arguments based on religion, then they can stop too.
I say we sacrifice them all to Ba’al.
Chris
@Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal:
Yep. The postwar consensus was possible because the 73% of everyone else (led by the establishments of both parties) agreed to keep the 27% locked out of the process. When that fell apart, so did the consensus, and the country’s been worse off for it.
jibeaux
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Well, we can’t talk about dogs ALL day, can we?
Zifnab
@MagicPanda:
Well, there are things that exist and there are things that are invented. You could ask, “Why did God create bacterial infection if he wanted us to wipe it out with penicillin?” But you can’t really ask, “Why did God create the wheel?” or “Why did God give us animal furs for our clothes?” just because they’ve been around a very long time. War is definitely an invention.
Either way, I think it does a good job of putting the gay bashers back on the defensive.
Roger Moore
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Because they’re so fun to send to hell.
Roger Moore
@Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal:
Put the 27% on an island and you’d have Lord of the Flies going in no time flat.
Mnemosyne
@Roger Moore:
Haven’t you heard? Hell doesn’t exist. And evangelicals are pissed about it.
Sad_Dem
I’m sorry, this guy is great for saying this publicly, and I support him, but the argument is bad. God also made the Bush family, psychopaths, Hitler, Stalin, the Saudi royal family, our Galtian overlords, criminals, everyone who works for a paycheck and votes Republican, Paula Deen…
PurpleGirl
Who is this man and what faith tradition is he coming from? He’s quiet and not very flashy but clear that he has thought this out and come to a belief he’s living. I like how he thinks, on this issue at least.
Roger Moore
@Zifnab:
The God botherers won’t stay on the defensive for long. They’ll just respond that God doesn’t make people gay, people choose to be gay because of their sinful nature. Or maybe that God chose to make gay people for his own inscrutable reasons, but that it’s not our right to criticize him for it, just to follow his rules saying that it’s evil. No matter what you say, you won’t change their minds. They know that their beliefs are correct, and your objections aren’t going to change their minds.
reflectionephemeral
@Sad_Dem:
I don’t agree with that, Sad Dem, and I think he addresses that, obliquely, by mentioning that we should support people as long as they aren’t hurting others.
I think the argument he’s making is, “what are gays supposed to do, how should their rights be regarded, if, as the best available information tends to indicate, sexual preference is an innate, immutable characteristic?” It’s not like psychopaths and Saudi royals doing bad things to others.
scav
@Mnemosyne:
To state the obvious, sounds rather like a good number of the wealthy in this country: it’s not enough to have good things yourself — others must go without.
Emma
Sad_Dem: Nope. Not all those things weren’t made, not in the sense you mean. Some traits are genetic, but some events happen because people are just douchebags.
And don’t knock Paula Deen: she’s not afraid to cook with butter! :)
Brachiator
@Bill:
Fix’t.
Hey, we’re talkin’ bout the angelic here.
@Dennis SGMM:
The idiot counter argument, of course, is that gay people either have been misled by Satan, commies or (even worse) libruls, or are simply being deliberately perverse.
But all conservative arguments about gays, like arguments about abortion, come down to a sad group of dopes who are obsessed with controlling people’s souls by controlling what they do with their genitals.
MagicPanda
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m just wondering if the “God created gays so they must be OK” line is really going to work with people who dislike gays supposedly because of religion. My guess (perhaps wrong) is that they will view it in the greater context of the question of why sin exists in the first place. God allows sin (and evil) to exist for his own weird reasons.
I have a lot of relatives (in-laws) who are quite religious. I’d love to be able to sway them on topics like this. I just don’t think that the zinger about God creating gays will win any of those guys over.
For my money, I preferred the the earlier part of his statement about the proper role of religion in government, as well as the evidence that sexuality is innate, and asking people to sit and reflect on whether that changed their view of the morality of homosexuality. I thought it was forceful while being respectful of people’s beliefs.
scav
I’d just like certain people to stop telling their deity who to damn. He’s a big boy/girl/intersexed/paperclip, he can make up his own mind.
Ruckus
@reflectionephemeral:
It sure seems to me that being white, male, and straight is an awful lot easier than the alternatives. We can think about sexuality, ethnicity, and gender at our leisure. It doesn’t work that way for everyone, from what I understand.
Louis CK
Chris
@Sad_Dem:
Nah. Every one of those people chose to be the piece of shit that they were. As various people including myself have pointed out here, gay people don’t choose to be gay. Color me shocked that Republicans are a little fuzzy on the distinction, but it’s a crucial one.
MAJeff
@nancydarling:
It passed that House committee. It has one more committee in the House before it goes to a full vote.
It passed it’s second Senate committee hearing today. It now goes before the full Senate next week.
Gov. Dayton cannot veto it, so the amendment will be on the 2012 ballot (barring some miracle in the House). It’s gonna be an ugly year-and-a-half in Minnesota as the NOMBigots come to town to join the MFC at it’s merry band of halfwits.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Sad_Dem: God may have made all of those, but other than them being idiots, he didn’t make their choices, they did. I suppose we could have arguments over whether they were made evil, but then I would be conflicted over whether we should have laws like “Marriage shall be defined as the union of two good people.”
ETA: Fixed my stuff in quotes to make it read better.
Chris
@MagicPanda:
It’s not.
What will work is the under-30 crowd growing up, having their own kids, passing their values onto said kids, while the older generations die off and their values with them. Bigots aren’t the type of people to change their minds no matter what’s presented as evidence. Better to educated the kids and wait for them to die off.
Simon, IMO, was venting a frustration while making out loud an argument that many in the under-30 crowd (people who believe in God but are okay with gay marriage) will identify with.
mds
@Zifnab:
So on the defensive are they that the amendment was passed out of committee, will almost certainly pass the full legislature, and will be on the ballot in 2012, all in an attempt to replicate the 2010 teabagging wave that elected a majority of shrieking theocratic dumbshit psychopaths to the legislature to begin with, and just barely missed putting a teabagger in the governor’s mansion. Yeah, they’re really knocked back on their heels right now, thanks to an unsuccessful speech from a member of the minority.
(Don’t get me wrong, he should be applauded for putting that out there rather than assuming the default crouching position, but it’ll take a lot more than this to scrub the stupid out of once proudly progressive Minnesota.)
Dennis SGMM
@Mnemosyne:
In an age when Donald Trump and Ron Paul could be considered candidates for the presidency I would suggest that we may already be in hell.
goblue72
This thread is a classic example of how the left would rather form a firing circle than kill the enemy. Dude comes up with perfect skewer of a media friendly soun bite and all you weiners can do is bicker about how it’s not logical, the fundies won’t change their minds, God doesn’t exist so what’s the point, yadda, yadda.
I can see why ABL loses her shit so much.
reflectionephemeral
@Chris:
Physicist Max Planck: “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.”
Ruckus
@MagicPanda:
while being respectful of people’s beliefs
And that’s the crux of it isn’t it. Conservatives and goddies have no respect for other people or their beliefs. IOW they have no humanity even while being part of it. And I really don’t mind that they don’t like themselves for all their layers of crap but why do they have to project that on all the rest of us?
MagicPanda
@goblue72: It’s only the perfect skewer if it works. Which it won’t.
I prefer the one about “Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?” followed by “So when did you choose to be heterosexual?”
I find it both funny and effective. :-)
Michael D.
@Bill:
If that comment was a Facebook post, I would click “Like”
Dennis SGMM
@goblue72:
It’s “circular firing squad” – not “firing circle.”
Sure, it was a nice speech and sure, we agree with the sentiments expressed. The bill still passed out of committee. Anyone who thinks that the wingers will be swayed by oratory hasn’t been paying attention.
MagicPanda
@Ruckus: There are two ways to win an argument. One way is to persuade, and the other is to browbeat. Both can be effective.
I think it’s perfectly fine to browbeat bigots and shame them into acting like decent human beings.
But in this case, Rep. Simon was trying to persuade. And it’s easier to persuade people when you are being respectful with them.
So I’m not saying you have to be respectful all the time. I’m saying that in this particular case, I thought his speech was effective and persuasive, partly because he was being respectful.
reflectionephemeral
@Ruckus: Thanks for that Louis CK clip. His appearance on Jay Leno, of all places, was also pretty great. He’s pretty unfathomably awesome.
Bulworth
Additional fundie response(s):
1). There were no gay people until the 1960’s when we kicked God out of schools.
2) We’re all born “depraved” (Calvinism), except some of us were “pre-destined” to be saved among God’s Elect, and it doesn’t matter what we do, except for teh gay.
Chris
@reflectionephemeral:
Thanks. I was thinking of that quote but couldn’t remember how it went or who said it.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Sad_Dem:
God did not create Paula Deen. She evolved from a virus.
fraught
Why is it that I am always reading someone in these comments wishing and hoping for the time when folks of my generation will have all died and, presumably, gone to hell? Every generation will have it’s cranky and hateful old bastards including whatever generation any of you belong to. Racism and homophobia will still be around as long as there are minorities who are different colors and who have different orientations than the majority. Age doesn’t own hatred and prejudice.
That having been said, there is no reason anyone has to put up with the rantings of old farts who have hated fags for six or seven decades. Feel free to tell them to DIAF.
Omnes Omnibus
@MagicPanda: Perhaps different parts of the speech might resonate with different people. Maybe the argument will reach a few people and cause them to change their minds. Maybe it was just good to hear someone out making a forceful argument.
I guess if an action doesn’t have the immediate effect of causing everything to get all better all at once for all time, it just is worth doing at all.*
*Hyperbole. I got annoyed because it sometimes seems that people just appreciate the fact that a person did the right thing and did it reasonably well without people picking it to fucking shreds.
C.S.
@gogol’s wife:
My thoughts exactly. No pauses, no “uhs” or “ums”, no repetition, very well organized yet seemingly off-the-cuff. And eloquent, too, which is nice. And young and handsome. Methinks this is not Mr. Simon’s final elected position.
Kyle
While I know it’s helpful for folks to think that folks are born gay (or at least have no choice in the matter), I feel that’s beside the point. This is America, the land of the free. Why shouldn’t I be able to choose to be gay?
burnspbesq
@MagicPanda:
“God (if you believe in him) creates lots of things, good and bad. For example, war has been around since the beginning of time. Does that mean we ask ourselves whether God wants war?”
Among other things, God gave us free will. If we choose to sin, that’s on us, not Him/Her.
Brachiator
@goblue72:
Things really are not “either/or,” especially “firing circles.”
@reflectionephemeral:
An odd overstatement. Planck’s role in advancing modern physics demonstrates an fun oscillation from holding onto tradition and embracing revolution:
Oh, yeah, and Planck was 47 in 1905, while Einstein was a frisky 26. It’s much the same with politics, social trends, etc. Some can easily jump aboard the Party Train, while others hold back and miss the funk.
Darcy
Sorry to go OT, but it’s tangentially related> Is there a way of protesting this? It’s sad, but not altogether surprising. It’s nominally a PR post, so I think it should matter what political statments the chef de mission makes. He sounds like an otherwise stand up guy, but he makes us all look backwards, to say the least.
Southern Beale
Cue Lady Gaga’s “Born This Way ….”
cynickal
@MagicPanda:
God doesn’t start wars, mankind does. When was the last time you saw God toting a field kit and rifle? ;)
Chris
@fraught:
Someone was me, so I’ll respond:
The fact that the under-30 crowd tends to have far more supporters of gay rights (including marriage) than their elders is borne out by most of the polls I’ve read on the subject. Doesn’t mean everyone over 30’s an asshole and a homophobe, or that everyone under 30 isn’t. It does mean that gay rights advocates have a far more receptive audience in the latter than the former.
In 1928 it was not possible for a Catholic to win the presidency. In 1960, it was possible and an accomplished fact. The passage of time killed that prejudice, and gay rights will work the same way.
Omnes Omnibus
@Southern Beale: Let’s not.
Brachiator
@Kyle:
@burnspbesq:
I like these two challenges/questions.
There are people (including Andrew Sullivan, by the way) who think that if you can show that gayness is genetic, then you should accept it. And there are those who think that if gayness is only a choice, a lifestyle, and always a bad choice.
I don’t think it matters at all, trying to determine the authenticity of someone’s gayness. What you choose can be as deeply held as what you are, even more so, if you do it despite all the obstacles that may be put before you.
As to the other issue, can we ever reject the determination that something is a sin or a “grave disorder?” If God gave us free will, can we not use it to choose our fates?
ColleenMary
MN is gonna have a rough ride dealing with this, but at least we have awesome folks like the Rev. LeeAnne Watkins fighting the good fight. Check out her speech at the Capitol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQdtb7Gx2Cw
Kyle
@Brachiator:
Barb (formerly Gex)
Might I just mention again how disgusted I am watching this debate? The people’s work apparently is for two competing versions of God battling over what God thinks of people like me. Fucking disgusting.
Meanwhile today I saw a “No Jesus, No Peace” bumper sticker. Not quite like the Coexist sticker, is it? The translation: Convert or else. A Jesus based threat.
I am tired of other people’s religion.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Kyle: Because we don’t have secular law in this regard. The entire gay issue gets argued among competing Christian factions in this country. An entire policy issue that boils down to claiming the other is not really a Scotsman.
@cynickal: According to Bush, God had a lot to do with deciding to go into Iraq.
billy rae valentine
@reflectionephemeral:
i really enjoyed this post. your “think about it at our leisure” thing is something i’m always trying to express.
like when the Trump/birther thing exploded and i saw “ABL” post that youtube vid. i noticed all of a sudden there were these (i guess) well-meaning white guys popping up on all the sites i frequent who demanded that the blacks explain just where racism is in the world anymore, telling the blacks that there is none, and they need to just stop living in the past, get over it, and do for self.
and i’m supposed to stop and explain my whole life and outlook to them on a blog because they woke up one day and decided to give a damn. what a privilege to walk around and have these things just be peripheral until YOU want to learn about them. i wish i could have that sometimes…
Mariefla
This reminds me of a discussion I had with my Christian sister and brother in law. God does make mistakes. Gays are made by God thus it is not an abomination nor is it wrong. If God made each of us in his image and he clearly made the gays; thus, God must be gay. At which their heads exploded and I was called a heathen who will die in hell.
ABL
@billy rae valentine: i’m going to copy this comment and put it on my notepad to be read the next time the blind privilege among the commentariat makes me think posting here is a lost cause. thank you.
Econerd
@Mariefla: I would guess God is about a 2.
reflectionephemeral
@billy rae valentine: Thanks, billy rae valentine, I’m glad you thought it was a worthwhile point. I haven’t really formulated a pithy way of putting it, to get across to people in a conversation… I guess, “We straight white males can think about sexuality, ethnicity, and gender at our leisure” is as close as I’ve gotten. Plus, dozens of times a day, you can see how it’s treated as a default. A great inadvertent teacher on that point is Chris Matthews.
celticdragonchick
@ABL:
BTW…this post just went up at LGF as well…
Dennis
@asiangrrlMN: A “non-idiot” from your state getting attention — I’m a (straight, married, hopefully empathetic) guy from Tennessee – you think you’ve got it bad…. our legislature just upheld the original verdict from the Scopes Monkey Trial and pushed creationism into the science classes – they want to pass a law saying Sharia law isn’t the law in Tennessee (kind of a waste of time since that pretty much goes without saying) and that comes just a couple of years after passing a law making it legal to pick up a deer you hit with a car and take it home to eat (since coined the “Road Kill Bill”) Now I actually agree with not wasting good venison – but darn if it’s not embarrasing to look John Stewart in the face every night. Oh yea…. what a well spoken, reasonable, logical, compassionate Legislator you have. I might offer him free election signs and possum meat to come to my state!