Things I Really Wish Were Online, Progressive Self-Sabotage Edition

In the November 2010 issue of Harpers, Susan Faludi published “American Electra: Feminism’s ritual matricide“:

No one who has been engaged in feminist politics and thought for any length of time can be oblivious to an abiding aspect of the modern women’s movement in America—that so often, and despite its many victories, it seems to falter along a “mother-daughter” divide. A generational breakdown underlies so many of the pathologies that have long disturbed American feminism—its fleeting mobilizations followed by long hibernations; its bitter divisions over sex; and its reflexive renunciation of its prior incarnations, its progenitors, even its very name….
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Feminism takes many forms and plays out in efforts in which younger and older women do collaborate over serious issues, usually out of the spotlight. It would be inaccurate to say that the generational schism is the problem with feminism. The primary hurdles feminism faces are the enduring ones…
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But these external obstacles also mask internal dynamics that, while less conspicuous, operate as detonators, assuring feminism’s episodic self-destruction. How can women ever vanquish their external enemies when they are intent on blowing up their own house? As feminist scholar Rebecca Dakin Quinn wrote more than a decade ago in “An Open Letter to Institutional Mothers,” an essay chronicling her own bruising intergenerational experience at a women’s studies conference, “Mothers and daughters stand divided; how long until we are conquered?”…

Faludi’s quest takes her through a hotly contested election campaign at NOW, and through a history of the advertising industry’s hijacking of first-wave feminism back in the 1920s. At the NOW conference, “thirty-three-year-old Latifa Lyles, a charismatic speaker attuned to a youthful sensibility, a black woman who insisted on a more diverse constituency, a technologically savvy strategist who had doubled the organization’s Internet fund-raising and engaged the enthusiasm of a host of feminist bloggers” is challenged by “fifty-six-year-old Terry O’Neill, who made a point of representing the concerns of NOW’s older, more traditional constituency… her campaign was geared to her boomer sisters: its rallying cry was a return to Sixties-style street activism, and its view of young feminist social networking ranged from tolerance to bewilderment.” Things do not go well.

By the final day of the NOW election conference in Indianapolis, the “unity” theme was a standing joke. Plenary sessions were bitterly divided and rife with rumors and allegation. Had Latifa Lyles presided, as vice president of membership, over a dramatic decline in financial contributions, as Terry O’Neill’s forces claimed? Or had O’Neill’s camp manipulated the numbers to present a false picture? Had Lyles’s supporters enlisted young ringers? Had O’Neill’s aides recruited older Hillary Clinton–turned–Sarah Palin supporters to throw the vote at the last minute?

The tactics, charges and counter-charges, may seem familiar to those who remember the 2008 Democratic primaries. Feminist politics have been a concentrated microcosm of “larger” progressive issues since at least the 1850s, when abolitionists and suffragists were frequently derailed by debates over whose rights “deserved” to be fought for. The only individuals who seem unscathed are a few savvy marketers — some of them, like Rachel Walker, literally children of older campaigners — who have turned their private grievances into successful careers bashing “old school feminism”.

Faludi goes on to show how advertisers in the Roaring Twenties used young women’s rebellion against “old, outdated suffragettes” to sell everything from sanitary napkins to “scientific behaviorism”. Setting campaigners for women’s rights against anti-slavery crusaders had worked wonderfully as a political delaying tactic in the previous century, but now setting one generation of women against another could be directly monetized for an individual company’s profits.

The legacy of the 1920s feminist betrayal haunts modern feminist life. The women’s movement went dark for nearly half a century…
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Second-wave activists rejected consumer culture and merchandised sexuality because they saw their mothers as victims of postwar materialism and hated them for it. By that rejection, they repeated the 1920s sin of matricide. The third wavers have discarded some of the ideological rigidity and rancor that the second-wave feminists felt toward their personal mothers. But they are no freer of the 1920s curse. In many respects, third-wave politics and postmodern gender studies have shifted from the battleground of doctrinaire Seventies women’s liberation toward the intellectual playground of bodily display and pop-culture-friendly theory—a feminism, as Courtney Martin has put it, that is more “about being seen.” In doing so, they’ve fallen into the 1920s trap of employing a commercialized ersatz “liberation” to undermine the political mobilization of their mothers.
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In light of the unfortunate convergence in the Twenties of a mass movement’s collapse with the mass market’s ascendancy, the contemporary “feminist” urge toward shopping and retail culture takes on a more sinister coloring. It’s hard to see as innocent the consumer indulgence that was implicated in the death of first-wave feminism—especially as the old formula, commercialism versus feminist continuity, is playing out all over again, in academe as well as in the marketplace.

Today’s Republicans — modern ‘conservatives’ — remember their previous successes well enough to use both variations against us: They tell us that we can have “civil rights” issues or “feminist” issues… and that these are by definition in conflict. We can have an African-American candidate or a female candidate — but those candidates must run against each other, not against any of the dozen or so white male candidates who are judged implicitly Serious & Important by virtue of possessing pale skin and a penis. At the same time, Democrats — liberals, progressives, un-herdables — are accused of being out-of-date, using ‘outworn tactics’, holding on to ‘theories no longer relevant in the interconnected, globalist modern era’. Social strategies like a social safety net, environmental protection, workers’ rights are things we ‘can’t afford.’ And when we try to argue that basic human rights are not negotiable…

Hey, Donald Trump just called President Obama a dirty name! Everybody run send some tweets to each other! Blog about how those other progressives are failing to sufficiently acknowledge the hurtfulness of this issue within the historical framework of mine-is-worse activism! Then all we need to do is pick out the appropriate color and change our Facebook page, and the war will be as good as won!

Because if we’ve given up on defeating our real mutual enemies, we can at least be happy that we’ve driven the Inadequately Pure from within our (ever-dwindling) ranks!

246 replies
  1. 1
    Corner Stone says:

    When, oh when, will someone finally step up and speak out in defense of the beleaguered white male?

  2. 2
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    This post was a bad idea. The message you are trying to impart is going to get lost. Emotional responses, whether you share them or not, are real and it does little good to tell people to stop sniveling and get with the program. People, many of whom I respect, are righteously pissed off about the long form thing. Give them some room to work it out. YMMV.

  3. 3
    ABL says:

    Oh for fuck’s sake. *Do* get over yourself, AL.

  4. 4
    Corner Stone says:

    Oh snap!

  5. 5
    ABL says:

    If you are going to persist in refusing to try to understand, then the best thing to do is just stop digging.

    Unbelievable.

  6. 6
    marcopolo says:

    If folks want to read the Faludi article, here it is.

  7. 7
    calling all toasters says:

    Shorter Anne Laurie: the beatings will continue until unity improves.

  8. 8
    No one of Importance says:

    We can have an African-American candidate or a female candidate—but those candidates must run against each other

    This is ridiculous. Are you saying it was the *Republicans* who managed to contrive that there was no black female candidate for Presidential nominee in 2008? And it’s the *Democrats* who pitched candidate against candidate, Hillary against Obama. In fact, a lot of the toxic nature of the Democratic primaries can be laid directly at the feet of a woman. Hillary Clinton.

    I think it’s perfectly valid to be furious about the birther issue *and* about the Republican war on women. No one’s making anyone choose – except those who are embarrassed by the fact that they are trying to.

    You know, you’re the kind of white feminist who gives white feminists a bad name. Get off my side, Ann Laurie – you making it look racist.

  9. 9
    BR says:

    I’m not sure if I understand the point being made here (I don’t have much knowledge of the history of feminism), but I have to say it’s always bothered me how the feminist establishment raced to the nearest microphone to defend Hillary Clinton during the campaign against any sexist attacks (or even attacks made against Elizabeth Edwards) but were conspicuously silent when Michelle Obama was attacked.

    (I say this as a non-black male who probably would be considered a libertarian socalist.)

  10. 10
    Danny says:

    @AL

    Your post is very true and extremely important. The thing that the conservative movement has in abundance and the progressive movement at times lack is the ability to keep our eyes on the big picture.

    There will always be incentives for individuals to act out in ways that promotes infighting and leads to counterproductive ends. This may be on account of ignorance, but just as often comes down to a matter where you realize that you personally stand to gain from promoting sectarianism within the movement.

    Jane Hamsher and her FDL community is only the latest example of the latter, but Ralph Nader in 2000 do come to mind as well.

    Why does the left indulge in this, while the right doesnt?

    I believe the conservative grassroots are well trained in ultimately punishing sectarianist tendencies wherever they show up. While there may be infighting between libertarians, evangelists and national security republicans the punishment would be swift if someone in the conservative movement were to pull a Hamsher and try to peel off and mobilise conservative forces against one of it’s own.

    But on the progressive side of the aisle all you get for building your personal fiefdom to the detriment of the movement is at worst a slap on the wrist.

  11. 11
    Caravelle says:

    I’m rather surprised that the NOW conference dispute, which as presented in your post (quoted from Faludi?) doesn’t make it clear which side is in the right if any, gets invoked as an example of “matricide” in the feminist movement. Why not “infanticide” ? Or, y’know, “sororicide”. Or “infighting”. If we should be siding with O’Neill, why not say so ?

  12. 12
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .
    FUMA.
    .
    .

  13. 13
    General Stuck says:

    I have no idea what this post means, so I am just going to go walk my dogma.

  14. 14
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Danny: Partly because the response to this latest issue has from some, including AL, was easily interpreted as “Whatever, that’s over. Now get with the program,” instead of “This sucks. Let’s work together to defeat the kind of assholes who act that way.” One method builds a coalition; the other tells people who the right just told they were really Americans, the some on the left don’t really care all that much about the issue. But, fuck it, I am a straight, white guy of Christian heritage with a couple universit degrees, so it’s no skin off my nose, right?

  15. 15
    MikeJ says:

    @General Stuck:

    I have no idea what this post means,

    “Why are you so concerned about racist attacks directed at the leader of the Democratic party who is facing election in less than two years when you should be more concerned with the stuff that bothers me?”

  16. 16
    Corner Stone says:

    “Where the fuck you gonna go?”

  17. 17
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: FWYP won’t let me edit out my typos. Asshole.

  18. 18
    Guster says:

    I guess there’s some sort of context that I’m missing?

    This seems well-intentioned, but also about on the level of my thinking in high school when I learned that various native American cultures fought against each other instead of joining into one glorious redskin borg to fight the Europeans: why didn’t they put aside their petty differences and focus on the Big Threat? If only, if only …

    Those silly natives, not understanding my wisely historical and deracinated perspective.

  19. 19
    Loneoak says:

    I think I hear the dog whistle in this post and I don’t like it.

  20. 20
    General Stuck says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    But, fuck it, I am a straight, white guy of Christian heritage with a couple universit degrees, so it’s no skin off my nose, right?

    Yes, sometimes being the embodiment of pure evil has it’s perks in the relevance department. When everything is your fault, there is not much of note to offer up for the cause.

    We still are masters of the teevee remote realm.

  21. 21
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    This has not been AL’s best week. The passport thing and now this…

  22. 22
    srv says:

    I was just discussing this topic with my frat brothers at the Applebees salad bar, and I realized the only option was to choke bobo with the salad spoon.

    But I am curious, do many of the John Cole’s of the Left consider PUMAs to be a problem mostly with fairer sex?

  23. 23
    General Stuck says:

    @MikeJ:

    Thanks for the interp. my response. that sucks purple donkey dicks and smacks of liberal race envy. Now wrap yer noggin around that one.

  24. 24
    CaseyL says:

    Looks like a lot of commenters, some of them also front pagers, have wasted no time proving Annie’s (and Susan Faludi’s) point.

    Well done!

  25. 25
    MikeJ says:

    OT, but somebody needs to page DougJ. WaPo taking questions about the nerd prom.

  26. 26
    Groucho48 says:

    I remember, back during the fight for the Civil Rights Act, the right decided to vote on including “women” as a class that fell under the Act. Their thinking was this would alienate some of the male supporters of the legislation, which might be enough to defeat it.

    What they didn’t count on was that this energized Congressional women. More so when the male Congressfolks acted hyper-chivalrous (condescending)towards said female Congressfolk. The women got so fired up and so willing to take names (and scalps) of opponents, that the ploy ended up helping the Act to pass.

  27. 27
    Allan says:

    Anne Laurie is projecting so hard, the IATSE just invoiced her for dues.

  28. 28
    General Stuck says:

    Hey, Donald Trump just called President Obama a dirty name! Everybody run send some tweets to each other! Blog about how those other progressives are failing to sufficiently acknowledge the hurtfulness of this issue within the historical framework of mine-is-worse activism! Then all we need to do is pick out the appropriate color and change our Facebook page, and the war will be as good as won!

    Because if we’ve given up on defeating our real mutual enemies, we can at least be happy that we’ve driven the Inadequately Pure from within our (ever-dwindling) ranks!

    I will say this is some highly fucked up shit, and all the comment it deserves. Jeebus.

  29. 29
    Danny says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Yeah, but the thing is – and this is once again something the conservatives are good at and (forgive me) we’re not – the way you defeat those assholes is by sticking together, and you – everyone of “you”, whether black or white or woman or gay or atheist or working class – should do that because your own interests and beliefs and the interests of americans will be served by doing it and hurt if you dont.

    If someone hurt someone’s feelings, chose the wrong words or, whatever that’s important too – for the individuals involved at least – but not as important, not even close.

    Sure there’s a place for settling these kinds of things as well, but the most important battle is against the enemy, then against the traitors, and then we can settle our petty differences and distribute the hugs as needed.

  30. 30
    srv says:

    @Groucho48:

    What they didn’t count on was that this energized Congressional women.

    Help me out here, how many Congresswomen were there in 1964?

  31. 31
    Citizen_X says:

    @CaseyL:

    a lot of commenters, some of them also front pagers, have wasted no time proving Annie’s (and Susan Faludi’s) point.

    Well, hell, that was after Annie and Susan Faludi helped prove Annie’s and Susan Faludi’s point.

  32. 32
    General Stuck says:

    I kind of was thinking the outrage at Trump and his bullshit, and all the other race baiting, racist clap trap from the right WAS taking it to our mutual enemies. Unless there are those on the left that don’t very much disagree with Trump and the republicans.

  33. 33
    Anya says:

    There is a bewildering array of meanings to draw from this post.

  34. 34
    No one of Importance says:

    @Allan:

    Since I saw you declare that you, as a gay man, were “unprivileged” over at ABL’s place, I’ve pretty much written you off as a person with the slightest right to comment on anyone else’s privilege/disprivilege.

    I don’t like what AL has written, but damn if you men are going to pontificate on the issue like you’re the natural voice of authority over women.

    In other words, white man, shut up about feminism and race until you understand your own intensely privileged position regarding sex and colour.

  35. 35
    Allan says:

    @No one of Importance: You’re entirely welcome to skip over what I write. But you don’t get to put words into my mouth. Provide a quote that substantiates the charge in your first sentence, and especially your use of quotation marks around a word I’ve never written.

  36. 36
    jl says:

    @marcopolo: Thanks for the link. Only the first page or two can be viewed for free, and that was enough for me to understand that I am so unfamiliar with the issues that coughing up the sixteen bucks to read the rest won’t help.

    Aanne Laurie seems excessively distraught over the progressive movement, whatever that is supposed to mean.

    I do not consider ‘liberal’ and ‘progressive’ to be synonymous at all. There is (or was, long long ago) such a thing as Republican progressives who were in many ways more conservative than Democrats of the time. And it seems on specific issues Anne Laure really means ‘liberal’

    I don’t know that internecine warfare is the main reason progressive and/or liberal causes don’t do well. It seems to me that old style US liberalism became a little ossified and taken for granted, and the reactionaries did a very good job of running with that theme, in addition to the Viet Nam disloyalty theme, which we may finallybe growing out of.

    I don’t know that internecine warfare is a special curse on liberals, or the feminism. Look at the nonsense that went on with CPAC this year. It may seem like a special curse when our side seems to keep losing.

    As for this:

    “Today’s Republicans… tell us… We can have an African-American candidate or a female candidate—but those candidates must run against each other, not against any of the dozen or so white male candidates who are judged implicitly Serious & Important by virtue of possessing pale skin and a penis.”

    Yeah, well, today’s Republicans can try to tell the country lots of things. Now that their lies and BS are catching up with them around the country, as it has in CA, things are chaning.

    California, which despite its reputation for crazy liberals is as a whole smack dab in the middle of the country in terms of voter attitudes on economics and crime, elected an African American women opposed to the death penalty and quite progressive on many issues to be the new state Attorney General.

    Actually, I just checked and Wikipedia claims Kamala Harris is African South Asian (India) American.

    So, times are changing. We don’t need to choose.

    But Wikipedia says Harris is a Baptist, so maybe that suckered a few Southern Baptists into voting for her, who knows?

    As for feminism, the fractured described in the post and the part of the article I could read sound like generational conflicts that occur in any movement.

    So, Anne Laurie needs to calm down. She has caught some of that old time Cole panic mania (which I admit he has shown much less of lately).

  37. 37
    James E. Powell says:

    @Danny:

    Why does the left indulge in this, while the right doesnt?

    We, the left, are united by the things for which we hope. But among people on the left, there are varying hopes that can seem to conflict. Or, maybe it’s that the priorities are not the same.

    They, the right, are united by the things that they hate and fear. These tend to be the same things. That will induce conformity.

  38. 38
    No one of Importance says:

    @Anya:

    I’m obviously too stupid to work out what Faludi is saying, but AL’s point is unfortunately familiar – black people, even black women, should not talk about racial issues (especially in feminism) when the *bigger* issue of sexism hasn’t been solved.

    Which is exactly the kind of misleading, racist nonsense that leads some black women to identify as womanist, rather than feminist (because they rightly see much of feminism as utterly dismissive of their own lived experiences as people of colour in a racist world) and that led Audre Lourde to write her famous “The Master’s Tools Will Never Dismantle the Master’s House” – which, ironically and annoyingly, is often quoted by *white* feminists who are oblivious to the fact they are the ‘masters’ of Lourde’s text, not men.

    AL, you’re a clever woman, and a kind one. But you have such a tin ear on racial issues, and you refuse to listen when people like asiangirl and ABL point out your ignorance. Maybe you should work on that.

  39. 39
    Tom Q says:

    @srv: Can’t find an exact answer for you, but I do find a reference that there were 20 females in the House in the ’61-’62 session. And I remember Patsy Mink being elected from Hawaii in ’64. So it wasn’t a great number, but not just half a dozen or anything like that.

  40. 40
    Caravelle says:

    And when we try to argue that basic human rights are not negotiable… Hey, Donald Trump just called President Obama a dirty name! Everybody run send some tweets to each other! Blog about how those other progressives are failing to sufficiently acknowledge the hurtfulness of this issue within the historical framework of mine-is-worse activism! Then all we need to do is pick out the appropriate color and change our Facebook page, and the war will be as good as won!

    I’m pretty confused at this, do you disagree that racist attacks on the President are an issue ? Are there people out there who dismiss social justice or negotiate away basic human rights by bringing up birthers ? Who is bringing up mine-is-worse activism ? I assume someone is and you’re reacting to them but you give no link or example.

  41. 41
    No one of Importance says:

    @Allan:

    “especially your use of quotation marks around a word I’ve never written.”

    Unless you deleted the comments you made over at ABL’s blog, then you have only to trawl back through the posts there to find that very quote. From your own hands. I was angry enough to link and complain to a gay friend about it, and he, white man too, rolled his eyes at your ignorance.

    But as you insist, I’ll find the link. BBL

  42. 42
    jl says:

    My comment is in moderation, and I can find no bad words. Why? Is there some widget that can screen for bad words before comments are posted?

    In any case, I will try to repost the part addressing the issue of whether sexism or racism is ‘more important’.

    “Today’s Republicans… tell us… We can have an African-American candidate or a female candidate—but those candidates must run against each other, not against any of the dozen or so white male candidates who are judged implicitly Serious & Important by virtue of possessing pale skin and a penis.”

    Yeah, well, today’s Republicans can try to tell the country lots of things. Now that their lies and BS are catching up with them around the country, as it has in CA, things are chaning.

    California, which despite its reputation for crazy liberals is smack dab in the middle of the country in terms of voter attitudes on economics and crime, elected an African American women opposed to the death penalty and quite progressive on many issues to be the new state Attorney General.

    Actually, I just checked and Wikipedia claims Kamala Harris is African South Asian (India) American.

    So, times are changing. We don’t need to choose.

    Edit: I hope that with a younger generation with different attitudes, invidious sensitivities about whether sexism, or racism, or classism is more important or should which should be handled ‘first’ will fade away.

  43. 43
    jl says:

    Everything I try to post is in moderation. Am I on a Balloon Juice watch list of some kind?

    Edit: Guess not. I can’t find any bad words in the comments that are in moderation, though.

  44. 44
    MikeJ says:

    @No one of Importance: I share your interpretation of this post, and it saddens me. I’ve not heard anybody who is pissed off about the racism in the attacks against Obama say that this proves we should ignore feminism. If people actually were saying that, there might be some merit to a “let’s all work together” kind of post. As it is, I’ve just seen people who were oh so tired of all this boring race stuff.

    I’ll add that I also agree with you on AL’s posts in general. Usually I’m a fan. but I think this one is a clunker ()along with the passport scaremongering.)

  45. 45
    micah616 says:

    Sorry, Anne Laurie, but this is some bullshit. Your post exemplifies the exact sentiments that turn young people and people of color away from movements such as feminism, atheism, and progressivism.

    To use the shorter, “My issues are our issues and you need to help. Your issues are your issues, good luck with them. Suck it up or shut it up.”

    I doubt you’d be so sanguine if Trump was out there calling President Hillary Clinton a murdering lesbian who needs to get back in the kitchen.

  46. 46
    srv says:

    @Tom Q: Wow. I would have never guessed. Thx.

  47. 47
    Allan says:

    Anne Laurie:

    In your final comment over on your previous trainwreck of a thread, it seemed to me that you actually expressed a fear that AsiangrrlMN and ABL were going to go over to the Republicans because of your self-acknowledged racism.

    On what basis other than your own racism would you ever think that either of these brilliant women would be hoodwinked into supporting the GOP and/or do it just to spite you?

  48. 48
    Genine says:

    Maybe I’m missing something but I am not getting anything racist from this post at all. It is not just talking about the Trump bullshit but also the feminist movement.

    She seems to be pointing out how some on the left side of the fence seem happier yelling at our own side than fighting the other. I completely agree with this, especially those who are “more progressive than thou.” I read this post as tackling in-fighting in general and not talking about anyone specifically.

  49. 49
    Corner Stone says:

    @jl:

    Everything I try to post is in moderation. Am I on a Balloon Juice watch list of some kind?

    Maybe. Are you white?

  50. 50
    jl says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Maybe I insult a certain John Cole too much in my comments.

  51. 51
    Danny says:

    @James E. Powell:

    We, the left, are united by the things for which we hope. But among people on the left, there are varying hopes that can seem to conflict. Or, maybe it’s that the priorities are not the same.

    They, the right, are united by the things that they hate and fear. These tend to be the same things. That will induce conformity.

    I wish that was the whole truth, but I suspect that’s a bit to simple, and also a bit to much self flattery for our own good.

    I think another part of it is that the right is more adept at working towards methodicly towards realizing what they want.

    This conflict of interest – conflicting priorities – is at the macro level an illusion. Because if republicans retake the senate and the white house womens rights will get hurt. AND minorities rights. AND gay/lesbian rights. AND workers rights. AND middle class interests. Etc.

    To avoid that we got to have a much better way to deal with the micro level conflict of interest that is unavoidable in any two party system.

    If conservatives acted as progressives are prone to act, the evangelicals would threaten to go third party right now because the republican house didnt do enough to reinstate DADT.

  52. 52
    Corner Stone says:

    @jl: Answer the fucking question!

  53. 53
    jl says:

    My two cents (and last try at avoiding moderation) is that I do not think a winning liberal progressive political movement is possible in the US until the issues of racism, sexism, economic and social class discrimination can be tied together.

    No issue can take a back seat to another issue until some undefined milepost or goal is reached for any issue. No issue will ever be finished, and all movements will have to evolve and meet new challenges because of changing circumstances, and the natural antagonism and competition between generations (that happens in any movement, liberal or conservative).

  54. 54
    jl says:

    And also too in addition.

    CA elected an African South Asian American women as Attorney General over a white guy. And speaking as a white guy, I voted for her, even though the white guy was at least pretending to be moderate, and may have really been one.

    It makes no difference what the increasingly discredited GOP says, we don’t need to choose.

    In the future, gradually, as a new generation takes over with more enlightened attitudes, I hope the whole concept of ‘choosing’ between issues will lose meaning.

  55. 55
    stuckinred says:

    Obama’s up at the dinner and they are cutting to that shit eating dog-fucker.

  56. 56
    No one of Importance says:

    @Allan:

    Oh I do *so* apologise. You never said ‘unprivileged’.

    You said ‘non-privileged’:
    http://www.angryblacklady.com/.....ment-12522

    Which, you know, you just aren’t.

  57. 57
    JPL says:

    @stuckinred: Did you see Trump get booed?

  58. 58
    Caravelle says:

    @Genine : But who here is “yelling at our own side” (not to mention not “fighting the other”) ? When you yell at your own side for yelling at their own side it would make sense to actually show examples of people yelling at their own side otherwise it just looks like you started it.

  59. 59
    stuckinred says:

    @JPL: Nah, I just turned it on.

  60. 60
    Suffern ACE says:

    @BR: What? Or – who – has been silent when Michelle has been attacked who should have spoken up? There are very few pseudo scandals around the first lady to begin with. There is the “whitey” tape that has never been produced; the “I’m proud of my country for the first time” flap; touching the queen; taking her daughters on a trip to Spain; putting her daughers on a diet (brcause she’s a “bad mom”); being photographed at a soup kitchen next to a homeless man who had a cell phone; “Our children aren’t really obese so the heck with your garden veges. I’m not gonna let her ban cookies”; the release of her undergrad thesis…am I missing a sustained attack?

  61. 61
    Poopyman says:

    @stuckinred: That’s because the Prez is rubbing Trump’s and Fox’s faces in their own bullshit.

  62. 62
    JPL says:

    @stuckinred: When he entered earlier, the crowd booed him. It was deserved. I love the Fox News line.

  63. 63
    stuckinred says:

    @Poopyman: No prisoners!

  64. 64
    JPL says:

    @stuckinred: I missed the Paul Ryan line.. did you catch it?

  65. 65
    lamh34 says:

    @stuckinred:

    Obama came in on “I Am An American” then announced that he’s releasing his birth video, and plays the birth scene from the Lion King!!!

    Then he goes in on the Fox news table.

    Obama: I wanna make clear 2 the Fox News table that was a joke. That was not a real birth video, that was a joke, a children’s cartoo

  66. 66
    stuckinred says:

    @lamh34: I’m on it now and he’s killin his pale ass.

  67. 67
    JPL says:

    Wow, .. Obama is on tonight…

  68. 68
    Poopyman says:

    @JPL: He couldn’t attend because his budget had no room for laughter.

  69. 69
    stuckinred says:

    Doesn’t seem like such a bad idea that Trump is there now does it?

  70. 70
    No one of Importance says:

    @Suffern ACE:

    I’ve seen her intellect, her figure, her race, her taste, and her parenting relentlessly attacked. One site is devoted to nothing but mocking her fashion choices, along with posting pictures of her superimposed over chimp faces. The thugs do to her what they do to her husband – attack her undoubted strengths as weaknesses. Yes, they did the same to Hillary when she was First Lady, but without the racial component, for obvious reasons.

    Michelle Obama is possibly the most gracious and perfect example of a political spouse – and someone who could so easily have just said ‘sod it, I’ve got my own highly successful career to follow’ – and yet she’s talked about as if she’s scum. I wonder if Americans can ever deserve a President and partner as wonderful as the Obamas. I wish we Aussies could swap them for Gillard and her hairdresser.The Obamas have guts, brains and grace. Gillard stands for nothing, believes in nothing, and only wants to cling to power. Being a consummate politician isn’t enough to win my admiration, male or female.

  71. 71
    lamh34 says:

    funny, allthe washpo journo posting all day on Twitter bout Turmp and who’s at this table, now that PBO is going all in, the are posting about how Trump and his table of racist are NOT amused…FUCK EM!!!

  72. 72
    lamh34 says:

    Obama: Bachmann is here tonite & I here she’s running 4 prez which is weird bc I hear she born in Canada Yes, Michele, this is how it starts

  73. 73
    Genine says:

    @Caravelle:

    I didn’t say anyone here (Balloon Juice) was yelling at their own side (though there is some of that on various topics). That’s my point. I think this may be a post about in-fighting in general, rather than targeting anyone specific. I don’t see this post being about the Trump and his bullshit in particular.

    As I said, I could be wrong, but I am not getting the vibe that others are. I can see where others may interpret it differently, I just don’t share that view without more evidence.

  74. 74
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    @JPL:
    .
    .

    Wow, .. Obama is on tonight…

    Everybody loves a good drone joke.
    .
    .

  75. 75
    Corner Stone says:

    Joe Biden may be the greatest straight man prop ever built by the FSM.

  76. 76
    lamh34 says:

    Damn, Seth Meyers might as well just go home after POTUS is done…Meyers ain’t Colbert, what can he do the will be better than POTUS.

  77. 77
    JPL says:

    @Poopyman: Thanks.

  78. 78
    Corner Stone says:

    @Uncle Clarence Thomas: Ouch. Uncle Clarence Thomas, did President Obama look under the skirted podium for the missing drones?

  79. 79
    CaseyL says:

    @Genine:

    She seems to be pointing out how some on the left side of the fence seem happier yelling at our own side than fighting the other. I completely agree with this, especially those who are “more progressive than thou.” I read this post as tackling in-fighting in general and not talking about anyone specifically.

    This. This,exactly.

    I was at another site, can’t remember which one, but somehow the conversation got a bit sidetracked when one commenter said all rape should be a capital crime because (“as we all know” was implied, though not said in so many words) rape is the worst thing you can do to someone. Another commenter responded by saying that was an insane point of view, because rape is something you can recover from, and that commenter had credibility to say so because she had been raped. A few other people felt empowered enough to chime in that, yes, they, too, had been sexually assaulted and yet still managed to have full, enjoyable lives including full, enjoyable love lives.

    The conversation then expanded into talking about horrible things that happen to people… that people can and do get over, can and do recover from…and how that resilience can be perceived as a threat to people who need victims or need to be victims.

    It was incredibly refreshing to participate in a discussion of Terrible Stuff That People Do To One Another with people who were not about to let the crimes committed against them be the thing that defined them. It was also refreshing that no one felt the need to play Can You Top This, or No One Can Possibly Understand The Unique and Deep Nature of My Pain.

    Thing is, you can’t have an internecine war unless you want to. You don’t have to rise to every bait that comes your way. You can wait and stop and decide if getting into a pissing match with people whose interests are actually, 90% of the time, coincident with your own, is really a good use of your emotional and mental energy.

    Or not. Hey, it’s your call.

    I’ll just say this illustrates perfectly why I’m no longer any kind of political activist.

  80. 80
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Corner Stone: Why are you bringing sexual orientation into it?

  81. 81
    Sirkowski says:

    Oh please! The left doesn’t the right to provoke an internal bitch fight.

  82. 82
    JPL says:

    Seth is going to have a difficult time following Obama.

  83. 83
    Corner Stone says:

    Ooooo!!

  84. 84
    lamh34 says:

    The White House releases a parody trailer in time for the WHCD

    The President’s Speech”

  85. 85
    Caravelle says:

    @Genine :

    I didn’t say anyone here (Balloon Juice) was yelling at their own side (though there is some of that on various topics).

    I didn’t assume you meant Balloon Juice (well, I did say “here” but I meant “in this national conversation” or something, eh whatever), but I assume Anne Laurie got the inspiration for her Trump example somewhere.

    I think this may be a post about in-fighting in general, rather than targeting anyone specific. I don’t see this post being about the Trump and his bullshit in particular.

    And yet she brought up infighting, and mentioned Trump as a specific example of infighting. I’m not the most assiduous follower of the blogosphere around so I’m sure there’s infighting out there on the subject of Trump I haven’t seen, I just want to know where.

  86. 86
    Donut says:

    @Genine

    Funny, I had the same reading you did. I’m not spending all day scouring every single line of every thread posted here, so maybe I missed something. I don’t know…
    . But I thought the post was lamenting liberals engaging constantly in circular firing squads and failing to stay focused on the common enemy. The thread has promptly devolved into just that, strangely enough.

  87. 87
    Corner Stone says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Obviously because I’m a racist.
    Whoops, I mean a misogynist.
    Errr, a homophobe.

    Fuck it. I’m a white male so I’m the worst entity known to mankind.*

    *With the possible exception of the “Crystaline Entity” from Star Trek:TNG
    That fucking thing may have been a more vicious asshole than white males. But I ain’t taking bets on it.

  88. 88
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Genine: There has been some back and forth over the past several days that forms a backstory here.

  89. 89
    ColleenSTL says:

    I have read through this entire post and the comments twice, and feel so confused about how this is being interpreted.

    Clearly there is a back-story here between AL and ABL that eludes me, because the post in question, taken outside that context, seems to be generating some unfair reactions.

    I’m not sure how AL connects Faludi to her point, but Faludi’s point, IMHO shows that psychology trumps politics, such that each generation of feminist activist, instead of building upon what came before, seems compelled to instead reject the foundation and go build something different.

    How that is supposed to connect with Trump, racism etc. sort of escapes me, but I heard her ultimate point as being about realizing that we are all being raped daily by a structurally unfair system and she thinks we might be better served if that were the focus of joint efforts. One doesn’t have to agree with that, but it hardly seems on its surface to be either cold or dismissive.

    Again, I don’t know that backstory and am not a regular. That’s just how it seems to me.

  90. 90
    lamh34 says:

    Chris Cilliza from WashPO “The Fix” posted that POTUS’ deboe-ing of Trump was “awkward” for the Trump table.

    FUCK EM!

  91. 91
    Corner Stone says:

    Seth Meyers is killing people on the right. Just flat murdering those assholes. Nothing subtle about it.

  92. 92
    Allan says:

    @No one of Importance: Apology accepted. I’m happy for people to read my (and others’) responses to the comments of one “indifferentwhitedude”.

    You might also enjoy my piece on privilege and paternalism over at ABL’s place.

  93. 93
    Mark S. says:

    @Caravelle:

    I’m rather surprised that the NOW conference dispute, which as presented in your post (quoted from Faludi?) doesn’t make it clear which side is in the right if any, gets invoked as an example of “matricide” in the feminist movement. Why not “infanticide” ? Or, y’know, “sororicide”. Or “infighting”. If we should be siding with O’Neill, why not say so ?

    I read this article for free a couple months ago, so I’m kind of going by memory. Matricide’s a bit harsh, but Faludi’s point is that before the 1920’s, feminists used a lot of matriarchal language such as “Let’s make this world a better place for our daughters,” etc. Since then, feminism has had a lot of generational strife, with younger women thinking their mothers were sell-outs and older women thinking the younger ones are too materialistic.

    I don’t think Faludi really takes a side. She has plenty of quotes from both sides that make them look bad.

    If I botched this analysis, I’d be happy if someone set me straight. I’m no expert on feminism, and like I said, I’m remembering this article from a couple months ago.

  94. 94
    Corner Stone says:

    @JPL: Seth isn’t following Obama, he’s blazing a mile wide swath of dead right assholes.
    Jeebus.

  95. 95
    Poopyman says:

    @Corner Stone: Yes, and when the crowd goes silent you know he’s hitting them. I love it.

  96. 96
    debit says:

    @lamh34: It’s awkward when you have a racist pigfucker at your table? Who could have ever imagined!

  97. 97
    lamh34 says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Meh, his jokes are very “inside the betlway” for me, not really feeling him…

    plus, no on before, and no one sine has topped Colbert’s bit at the WHCD.

    Seth is funnier when either Tina Fey or Amy Poehler are aroung, IMHO.

  98. 98
    No one of Importance says:

    @ColleenSTL:

    Clearly there is a back-story here between AL and ABL that eludes me, because the post in question, taken outside that context, seems to be generating some unfair reactions.

    Four posts down:

    http://www.balloon-juice.com/2.....e-curtain/

    Comment 40 by asiangrrlMN sums up the anger felt at Laurie by her and ABL. Laurie obviously felt it necessary to use her front pager status *again* to point out how we shouldn’t let racism distract people from really important issues. ABL and asiangrrlMN pointed out that racism is a big fucking issue and Laurie has no right to dismiss their concerns.

    All of which, as a white woman, I completely agree with.

  99. 99

    maybe i am in the minority on this one, but i think meta babes are really hot.

  100. 100
    stuckinred says:

    Slaughter

  101. 101
    Caravelle says:

    @CaseyL :

    You don’t have to rise to every bait that comes your way.

    Could you explain to me the difference between that and “shut up about your concerns, don’t rock the boat” ? Because I don’t really see how to distinguish them in practice.

    Hey guys, I have this idea for why the left might have more infighting than the right.

    The left is more diverse.

    Krezy I know.

  102. 102
    Corner Stone says:

    @lamh34: I disagree. There’s nothing “inside” or subtle about what Seth is doing.
    They’ve stopped even looking at the dais because he’s fucking stabbing them in the guts.

  103. 103
    No one of Importance says:

    @Allan:

    You might also enjoy my piece on privilege and paternalism over at ABL’s place.

    I doubt it, you fuckwit.

    By the way, I’m sorry you’re a horse’s arse. Hope you like that apology too.

  104. 104
    Ija says:

    Hey, Donald Trump just called President Obama a dirty name! Everybody run send some tweets to each other! Blog about how those other progressives are failing to sufficiently acknowledge the hurtfulness of this issue within the historical framework of mine-is-worse activism! Then all we need to do is pick out the appropriate color and change our Facebook page, and the war will be as good as won!

    I suppose you mean this for black progressives and liberals who are whining too much for your liking, thus constituting self-sabotage for progressives. I don’t disagree with your basic point, but the fact that you choose this as your example, and the fact that you think what Trump is doing is merely Trump calling Obama a dirty name says a lot about where your priorities are.

  105. 105
    lamh34 says:

    @Corner Stone:

    The line about Pawlenty and Al Gore was funny though.

  106. 106
    Corner Stone says:

    Seth is wayyy past “Go” now. Just killing assholes with his bare hands.

  107. 107
    stuckinred says:

    @Corner Stone: “unless the Blacks are a family of white people. . .”

  108. 108
    Poopyman says:

    Donald Trump is going to put a contract on Seth Myers after tonight. I hope these get lots of airplay.

  109. 109
    JPL says:

    @stuckinred: He nailed Trump.

  110. 110
    lamh34 says:

    @Corner Stone:

    meh…Colbert did it better, that’s all I’m saying.

    I did like the bit about Trump hair and Fox News.

    Trump is NOT amused as per twitter.

    This is turning into one two punch-like roast of Trump and I’m loving it.

  111. 111
    stuckinred says:

    “If your hair get’s any whiter the tea party is going to endorse it”

  112. 112
    Genine says:

    @Caravelle:

    Oh! I see what you’re saying- my mistake.

    Well, in-fighting in feminism is well-known, especially in the blogsphere. For me, it was especially ugly during the 2008 Democratic primaries. There was also a lot of “more progressive than thou”-ism during the healthcare debate last year. Both issues produced vast amounts of in-fighting. It was ridiculous. I am not sure these are things you need examples of.

    As for in-fighting over the Trump thing- I don’t see it. Most blogs I frequent, especially this one, all seem to agree that Trump is peddling racist bullshit. Aside from some conservative and libertarian trolls who think the attacks aren’t racist in tone, we all seem to be on the same page on this.

    It’s entirely possible I missed a fight or something in comments. I read the comments pretty frequently but I can and do miss things here and there. But if there was some big blow up, I’d like to think I would have seen something of it before this.

    This is part of the reason why I think AL’s post is more about in-fighting in general rather than specific.

  113. 113
    Corner Stone says:

    That any media outlet ever gave a camera to Trump for one second is being called for the outrageous bullshit it is.
    I can’t imagine they will ever do so again after this event.

  114. 114
    lamh34 says:

    @stuckinred: @Poopyman: @JPL:

    i am loving his Trump bits, seriously, this has turned into another Trump roast

    Meyers: Donald Trump frequently appears on Fox which is suspicious because a Fox often appears on Donald Trump’s head

    Meyers: Donald Trump recently said he has a great releationship w/ blacks but unless the blacks r a family of white people, he is mistaken

    Meyers: “Trump said he wld be running for president as a Republican, which is odd. I assumed he’d be running as a joke

  115. 115
    Valdivia says:

    @lamh34:

    Hurt the Trump’s fee fees?
    Fuck them all!

  116. 116
    Corner Stone says:

    Honestly, I keep waiting for Obama to walk up and cover the mic with his hand and whisper to Seth, “He’s done kid. He’s done.”

  117. 117
    JPL says:

    You know who’s not laughing, the folks at the Washington Post table.

  118. 118
    Joel says:

    On the subject of the Faludi article, I don’t see how any of these generational issues are specific to the women’s rights movement. Seems like they’re just overriding generational issues. And with regards to NOW, it just sounds like a typical power vacuum.

  119. 119
    Corner Stone says:

    Paul Ryan is on the spit now.

  120. 120
    Poopyman says:

    “Adult”. Nailed it.

  121. 121
    Corner Stone says:

    @JPL: Are the helicopters?

  122. 122
    lamh34 says:

    @Valdivia: Yep Fuck em

    Ciliza frantically tweeting how mad CHUMP is…TOO BAD SO SAD for him.

  123. 123
    JPL says:

    @Corner Stone: Sorry but they crashed.

  124. 124
    Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people) says:

    @Genine: Some of the ill-feeling is related to a previous thread and things said in it.

    @lamh34: No he didn’t say that! Okay now I wish I’d watched it.

  125. 125
    Genine says:

    @No one of Importance:

    @Caravelle

    And see? I missed something. Thanks to Omnes Omnibus and No one of Importance, I see the argument that’s taking place here.

  126. 126
    Yutsano says:

    @Valdivia: The Double Combover of Doom needs to toughen up a helluva lot more if he wants to survive a Presidential race. What’s happening right now is just kid’s stuff.

  127. 127
    Valdivia says:

    @lamh34:

    And how muchis Cilizza getting paid to defend Trump? How come none of these assholes ever cared about the racist shit he was saying about Obama? Jerks!

  128. 128
    Donut says:

    @ColleenSTL:

    I agree the initial post kicking off the thread is confusing and the point is not clear. I also guess I could have misinterpreted it. I am pretty confused at this point.

    I’m not about to go read the other thread (threads?) where (I guess?) people were arguing these larger issues about race and gender. You guys are already shitting all over each other. Have at it. I’m going to get some popcorn.

  129. 129
    Tom Q says:

    Never been much of a Meyers fan, but he had some beauties. Sadly, I came in too late for Barack. Presume I’ll be able to catch him later on the web.

  130. 130
    JPL says:

    Seth was good and my earlier comment can be deleted. One of my favorite lines was when he said to the President that he would have liked that guy who ran in 2008. Me too but I realize that you play with the hand that you are dealt.

  131. 131
    Valdivia says:

    @Yutsano:

    Agreed. I thought he was going to show the world how tough he is. He would not be able to make it one day in Obama’s shoes, given all the shit he takes with utter grace.

  132. 132
    Ija says:

    @Ija:

    I mean I agree with your basic point about infighting among liberals, not your basic point that some liberals are whining too much about Trump “calling Obama a dirty name”.

    I mean, seriously, if the only thing that you can conclude from the whole Trump birtherism and college transcriptism is that Trump was merely calling Obama a “dirty name”, don’t you think that says something about how blind you are about the reality of racism in America? And you don’t seem to care when people try to explain it to you, it seems to only embolden you to write more and more posts like this. I get it, when people feel they are being attacked, the instinct is for self-defense, to dig in even further. But maybe you should take some time to reflect. Calling Obama a dirty name? Is that all that means to you?

  133. 133
    stuckinred says:

    @JPL: “The Blacks” was brutal.

  134. 134
    hilts says:

    @Corner Stone:

    That any media outlet ever gave a camera to Trump for one second is being called for the outrageous bullshit it is.
    I can’t imagine they will ever do so again after this event.

    Don’t forget to tune into Fox and Friends on Monday. Fox News will never turn Trump away.

  135. 135
    Tom Q says:

    Not that it’s a surprise, but what an obvious difference between Trump and Barack. Barack managed laughs at even things that might have stung a little. Trump glowered at everything like the principal in Ferris Bueller.

  136. 136
    CaseyL says:

    I tuned in in time to see Seth Meyer and, yeah: Colbert was subtle. This guy is not subtle. Good for him. DC doesn’t “get” subtle.

    Gotta go see if CSPAN or anyone else has the whole shindig posted on site so I can see the parts I missed.

  137. 137
    TooManyJens says:

    @JPL:

    You know who’s not laughing, the folks at the Washington Post table.

    Good. Fuck them for inviting Trump. I hope the helicopters are laughing harder than they are.

  138. 138
    JPL says:

    Well that was a fun show to watch.

  139. 139
    Joel says:

    @lamh34: Hard to top Colbert, given that he performed in front of a completely hostile audience, which was 99% of what was hilarious about the whole deal. That will never happen again in our lifetimes.

  140. 140
    lamh34 says:

    Someone on twitter said that Trump told ABC News that POTUS was not going to address him at the WHCD…

    well he got bitch-slapped not just by POTUS, but he also got sliced in the jugular by Seth Meyers

  141. 141
    ninjaplease says:

    Ah yes… progressive genius at work: relying on minority interest groups in a majoritarian electoral system. Brilliant!!

  142. 142
    hilts says:

    I know the conventional wisdom is that Palin won’t run, but I would have appreciated a few more Palin jokes from Seth.

  143. 143
    Yutsano says:

    @Valdivia: Please note that in the context of the main thread I am standing firmly on the deck of the boat and ignoring the siren song of the mangoes. But picking on Trump I’ll do wholeheartedly and with great relish. Plus at this rate the Republicans are gonna lose this thing before it gets started.

  144. 144
    General Stuck says:

    @Donut:

    . But I thought the post was lamenting liberals engaging constantly in circular firing squads

    Well, if that was the point in a generic sense, then I sure don’t know why the left’s reaction to Trump and his nonsense needed to be thrown in as some kind of example. Because it seems to me, with some exceptions, the blatant and deep wound inflicted on black dems and liberals, and really all AA’s in this country has been more of a rallying point, rather than an example of the usual infighting.

    So I don’t get it, but as a privileged white male, though a fairly poor one, the struggles of minorities and oppression of women, and the finer points of those struggles often elude me. At least at first, but I do work to to keep my mind pried open to maybe let some of it in.

    Such as with the birth cert showing by Obama. I thought it a sad state of affairs that he had to do this, but also supported him doing it, but mostly for pure political reasons.

    It has taken my dumb white male ass a little longer to absorb some of the depth of hurt and humiliation that was inflicted on black AMERICANS, and really all people of color, for what seems another and updated version of a poll tax or literacy test. It was a primal and fundamental insult wrapped up in the context of this countries history with race relations.

    AL, including this in her rant on feminist issues and posing it as some kind of rivalry, and especially a secondary issue to race relations in this country, especially with the first black president in office, was rather bullshitty imo. And divisive in it’s own rite.

  145. 145
    stuckinred says:

    @lamh34: With a dull deer antler.

  146. 146
    lamh34 says:

    alright, did Obama really riff on Matt Damon.

    POTUS: Matt Damon said he was dissapointed in me…well Matt, I saw Adjustment Bureau…and right back atcha…

  147. 147
    Allan says:

    @No one of Importance: I did. I found it to be extremely revealing of the content of your character.

  148. 148
    Corner Stone says:

    The only thing Trump could’ve done was stand up and applaud Seth at the end of his bit.
    He looked like the humorless idiot asshole 73% of America knows him to be.
    Somebody should’ve told Trump he was gonna catch this. What a moron.

  149. 149
    Caravelle says:

    @Mark S.:

    I don’t think Faludi really takes a side. She has plenty of quotes from both sides that make them look bad.

    That sounds nice, but if she uses the word “matricide” I’d argue that’s definitely taking a side wouldn’t you ? It implies that it’s the daughters rejecting the mothers, not the mothers rejecting the daughters or something mutual.

    It’s also a pretty loaded term. I mean, killing your mother is usually considered bad.

    I haven’t read her book, nor do I know much on the subject either mind you.

    @ColleenSTL:

    I heard her ultimate point as being about realizing that we are all being raped daily by a structurally unfair system and she thinks we might be better served if that were the focus of joint efforts. One doesn’t have to agree with that, but it hardly seems on its surface to be either cold or dismissive.

    Well, it kind of implies that everyone else is too stupid to notice the real bad guys so that’s going to sound dismissive. And it’s implicitly dismissive of whatever the infighting is about, which means it’s going to dismiss one or both sides of that debate.

    Which is great, if one agrees that whatever the infighting is about is worthy of dismissal. Obviously those who are actually fighting would disagree. Also, it takes two to tango and I notice that often when you see a “let’s stop all this infighting and focus on the important stuff!” post, it tends to be by someone on one side or another of the fight. In which case it’s pretty disingenuous.

  150. 150
    hilts says:

    In what will surely go down as the night’s worst prediction, Donald Trump said that he doubted that his name would come up during President Barack Obama’s stand-up routine at Saturday night’s White House Correspondents’ Dinner.

    “I wouldn’t think [Obama] would address me” during his speech, Trump told ABC News upon arriving at the Washington Hilton.

    As for why he showed up, Trump offered this Trump-ism: “I was invited. By a lot of people.” (Trump is attending the dinner as a guest of the Washington Post.)

    Upon arriving at the Washington Hilton, Trump did not receive the warmest welcome. As he quickly walked the red carpet with his wife, Melania, he was greeted by boos and jeers, as illustrated by this C-SPAN clip of his arrival:

    h/t http://www.politico.com/click/.....ut_me.html

  151. 151
    Yutsano says:

    @lamh34:

    Matt Damon said he was dissapointed in me…well Matt, I saw Adjustment Bureau…and right back atcha…

    Oh. Snap. No he didn’t. That’s my prez right there folks.

  152. 152
    Emma says:

    ColleenSTL: Me neither. But since I like both AL and ABL, I think I’ll sit this one out.

    Though I will say this is the reason why I don’t blog and barely read blogs. The fights can get vicious and I don’t seem to be able to then just move on, which so many here seem to do from one day to the next.

  153. 153
    lamh34 says:

    @Corner Stone: yep, he shoulda laughed it off.

    But Trump is soooo thin-skinned, if he can’t handle this, even if he was a serious candidate for Prez, he would be a laughingstock

  154. 154
    Corner Stone says:

    Holy shit. “Well handled sir.”

  155. 155
    lamh34 says:

    @Yutsano:

    he sure did….I just saw the video….

  156. 156
    stuckinred says:

    @hilts: @lamh34: He did wave once.

  157. 157
    Valdivia says:

    Guys thanks for all the updates on how Obama killed it tonight. Much appreciated.

  158. 158
    Donut says:

    @General Stuck:

    I’m not saying you’re wrong. I also thought that was a bad example, but even really, really good writers draw shitty comparisons/metaphors/images sometimes. I didn’t read it that closely, and like I said, my initial reading of the post was that it was poorly worded and definitely not well-self-edited, and therefore not very clear. Poorly worded, to be more succinct. I didn’t understand the vitriol that came flying out over it, but now I’m getting it. I really am not interested in scouring previous threads to figure it all out. I can’t get that worked up over some stuff some people are posting on the internets. It’s not that the issues are not important, it’s just that after taking care of my five and two year old all day, I just don’t have the emotional well left in me to go there. What was I saying? Oh yeah, there’s more wine in my cupboard. Bye bye.

  159. 159
    lamh34 says:

    I’m betting the people at the WashPo table were told to hold a straight face, cause they did cut to Rump once or twice to get his reaction the the jokes, and I noticed one woman holding her hand over he mouth like she was laughing but didn’t want anyone to know.

  160. 160
    JPL says:

    @hilts: And he walked out with while folks smirked. Perfect ending to a perfect evening. The Washington Post must be so proud.

  161. 161
    Corner Stone says:

    @Valdivia: You have to catch a replay, or highlight.
    Just killed it.

  162. 162
    hilts says:

    @lamh34:

    When it comes to being thin skinned, Sarah Palin and Donald Trump are head and shoulders above any other public figures.

  163. 163
    JPL says:

    I thought the comment directed at Bachmann was pretty good. BTW was she born in Canada? Enquiring minds want to know.

  164. 164
    Valdivia says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Will do, for sure. Can’t tonight but will do tomorrow. Can’t wait!

  165. 165
    stuckinred says:

    The Atlanta news leading with “federal help is on the way”.

  166. 166
    JPL says:

    @Valdivia: Washington Post has a feed online now. … link

    Seth Meyers killed it..so look on Cspan for that video.

  167. 167
    No one of Importance says:

    @Ija:

    that you think what Trump is doing is merely Trump calling Obama a dirty name says a lot about where your priorities are.

    Being called an uppity nigra doesn’t bother white people, so a lot of them don’t see why it should bother anybody.

    I’m really disappointed that AL is among that group, or that she doesn’t see race baiting and the constant denigration of a black man’s outstanding achievements as just as toxic as what Republicans are doing to women.

    Black women are getting both barrels of shit right in the face and I don’t think they should be made to feel being blinded in the right eye shouldn’t hurt as much as being blinded in the left eye.

  168. 168
    Suffern ACE says:

    @hilts: Yep. Funny how that side complains that it is Obama that is “thin skinned.” Based on what I see in public, he suffers fools quite well.

  169. 169
    stuckinred says:

    @Suffern ACE: It’s not the thickness they are worried about.

  170. 170
    Valdivia says:

    @JPL:

    Thanks. I’m at a place where the feed blocks videos. So when I’m back to normal wifi I’ll be watching both.

  171. 171
    General Stuck says:

    @Donut:

    It’s not that the issues are not important, it’s just that after taking care of my five and two year old all day, I just don’t have the emotional well left in me to go there. What was I saying? Oh yeah, there’s more wine in my cupboard. Bye bye.

    Very wise priority choices. You take care of yer youngins and leave the rest of us to be idiots on the internet. It is a lonely thankless job we keyboard warrior morons have, but sumbody gotta do it.

  172. 172
    StacyMN says:

    I didn’t follow the back story either, so I guess I’m a bit confused as to what the point of the post is. I’m not sure if AL is using the examples of divides within feminism to argue that these divides in liberalism are detrimental to the goal of progressives?

    I would call bullshit on both.

    I stopped giving a fuck about the “Hey ladies, enough with your silly little lady issues, we are building a liberal utopia here” reasoning when the major anti-choice distractor during the health care debate was a democrat (actually long before that, Nelson was just the proof that I was right).

    Likewise, I wouldn’t give a fuck about the “Hey ladies of color, enough with your silly little race issues, we are building a feminist utopia here” reasoning, because it’s really the same bullshit thinking, is it not? Who are you actually fooling here?

    You don’t get to tell me that the issues that directly affect my life are nothing more then silly infighting. So I’m tired of this idea that we should sacrifice our little “pet peeves” (which are anything but) regarding our idea of equality for the sake of the greater cause. Perhaps if we were talking about things like dog licensing or the like, this argument would make sense. But the issues of equality aren’t trivial. This movement cannot possible exist when the ultimate goals are taken into consideration, because although the approaches may differ, it’s the same goal. We don’t get to pick and choose who’s societal greivences are more important.

    And I’ll just say – being that I am a younger feminist raised by an older feminist, I don’t really buy into the “generational” aspect of the argument. My mom and I are fine. Unlike real examples of race and gender baiting, the generational “debate” really is nothing more then a distraction, a way to point out some false flaw in feminism because some of the daughters end up on the pole. All that says are that people are individuals. Who knew?

  173. 173
    hilts says:

    @Suffern ACE:

    I can’t wait to hear Trump explain why he won’t be a candidate for president.

  174. 174
    Anya says:

    @lamh34: I am sure my boyfriend Matt Damon will love that.

  175. 175
    Corner Stone says:

    I think Morgan Fairchild must be an alien. She looks mid 40’s.

  176. 176

    So, wait, releasing the long form birth cert was just a huge set-up for the nerdprom punchline?

    11D chess, muthafuckas!

  177. 177
    JPL says:

    What will Trump say tomorrow? I’m guessing the President is running scared because I am the greatest.

  178. 178
    Mark S. says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Somebody should’ve told Trump he was gonna catch this.

    I have a feeling Trump is surrounded by people who tell him his shit smells like a fine bouquet.

  179. 179
    stuckinred says:

    @Corner Stone: Tijuana tuck and roll.

  180. 180
    Corner Stone says:

    @General Stuck: Hey! I’m a single dad of a small child. Why don’t you ever nurture and support me like that? Why do you always commit white on white privileged violence against me?
    Is it because I’m white?

  181. 181
    Anya says:

    @JPL: I like when the POTUS said: by the way Michelle, that’s how it starts.

  182. 182
    Joel says:

    Did we fake the moon landing? What really happened at Roswell? Where are Biggie and Tupac?

  183. 183
    ColleenSTL says:

    @No one of Importance: Thanks for the context because, on it’s own, I didn’t hear the same dismissive tone as in your summary of previous interactions. I am also a white woman, and have spent much of my on-line week calling out the racism being so blatently displaced. Seems like a false choice to me. I have enough energy to BOTH call out racism and work to bring the fuckers down.

  184. 184
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mark S.: Agreed. He doesn’t keep peeps on the payroll who will tell him he’s about to be the USA’s uberdouche voodoo doll.

  185. 185
    No one of Importance says:

    Michelle Obama looks so beautiful in that video link. Obama is killing them. Trump is too stupid to realise he’s being sliced and diced.

    Is Trump’s hair made out of melamine tonight? It looks like a racing cyclist’s helmet.

  186. 186
    JPL says:

    @Anya: That would have been at the top of my list but I really doubt that she got it.

  187. 187
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @ColleenSTL:

    Seems like a false choice to me. I have enough energy to BOTH call out racism and work to bring the fuckers down.

    I think most of us do.

  188. 188
    Corner Stone says:

    @arguingwithsignposts: Like Seth said, “What? He hasn’t released it for 3 years. Why would he release it before the dinner?”
    Seth killed people. He is covered in O- blood. Motherfucker slaughtered people with his bare hands.

  189. 189
    ruemara says:

    Well. I get what you’re trying to say AL, I’ve been saying it for a while. Unfortunately, it’s coupled with a level of dismissive that takes much of the good out of it.

  190. 190
    Malron aka eclecticbrotha says:

    Ann, I’m pretty dumbfounded that you’d even write something like this, regardless of what may or may not have been simmering in other threads here. I was actually following along agreeing with the premise – or at least the context – of your post, until you suddenly got driven off the road by the ghost of Geraldine Ferraro.

    Or. Something.

  191. 191
    MikeJ says:

    “bundled it in the lower tranche of a CDO.” There’s a crowd shot while that joke is told, and the poor girl on camera has no idea what was just said.

  192. 192
    Bob Loblaw says:

    Wait, the press correspondence dinner was tonight?

    Oh. When I saw the post count on this thread, I expected another mighty brouhaha over Liberal Race War Dialogue 2008 2009 2010 2011 It Never Ends. With a heaping helping dash of feminism for extra juice.

    I’m not sure whether to be relieved or disappointed.

  193. 193
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Bob Loblaw:

    I’m not sure whether to be relieved or disappointed.

    I think we established that is it okay to be both.

  194. 194
    Yutsano says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: And Bob will be happy to oblige on both fronts. If past patterns stay in effect.

  195. 195
    No one of Importance says:

    Myers is kicking Trump so hard, and Trump is really not loving it at all. I’d almost feel sorry for Trump if he wasn’t such a poisonous sack of shit.

    Obama is loving it all, even the jokes about himself – can you imagine Bush giggling so hard when the piss was being taken out of him? The idiots who say there’s no difference the two – look at which one has a healthy sense of humour and lack of egotism, and which one wouldn’t know a joke if it barfed in his face.

  196. 196
    Mako says:

    The feminism argument bores me as much as the racist argument. Seriously, is there anyone who hasn’t read all the arguments years ago and already made a decision?

    edit: Waterworld is on TV! Costners crowning achievement!

  197. 197
    Mark S. says:

    All right, I finally watched the clip. Trump looked like he was taking a very important dump. He’s toast.

  198. 198
    eemom says:

    late to this shitfest, but I do think it’s fairly remarkable that AL posts an explosive turd like this……and is NOWHERE to be found when people react.

    Yep. That there’s some shit that makes me REAL proud to be a “team player,” let alone a feminist.

    Not to criticize Cole’s taste in front pagers, but srsly — having the courage of one’s purported convictions, plus not being a flame-throw-and-run chickenshit, would seem like a minimal qualification.

  199. 199
    TruculentandUnreliable says:

    De-lurking because…WHITE PEOPLE! Why the fuck are you so embarrassing? This isn’t a fucking “circular firing squad” or what the fuck ever. This is about people’s experiences and lives. Nobody will ever be the perfect ally, but Jesus Christ, try to show a little humility and listen.

    Here’s a little Racism 101 primer: You are white. Because of this, you have never experienced racism. Maybe you have experienced classism, sexism, homophobia, or some other sort of oppression, but you have not experienced racism. Therefore

    YOU DO NOT GET TO TELL PEOPLE OF COLOR HOW TO FEEL ABOUT RACISM.

    Got that? I’ll say it again:

    YOU DO NOT GET TO TELL PEOPLE OF COLOR HOW TO FEEL ABOUT RACISM.

    Imma repeat it one more time, because I’m sick of seeing white liberals step in basically the same shitpile that conservatives do (“I’m not a racist because I don’t say “n******” is on the same goddamn continuum as “I’m not a racist because I’m a liberal.”) So

    YOU DO NOT GET TO TELL PEOPLE OF COLOR HOW TO FEEL ABOUT RACISM.

    Period. End of sentence. If that’s too hard for you to understand, then I, personally, would kindly invite you to fuck off because you’re just standing in the fucking way.

  200. 200
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @eemom: Yeah, it is not a very impressive outing.

  201. 201
    Steeplejack says:

    @General Stuck:

    [. . .] I am just going to go walk my dogma.

    Hope your dogma doesn’t get hit by a karma. Be careful out there.

  202. 202
    suzanne says:

    This sits un-well with me.

    I don’t want to be a feminist if it means that victory over sexism comes with the cost of essentially telling WoC that they still need to go sit the back of the fucking bus. That position isn’t any better just because they’re behind me rather than a dude.

  203. 203
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @suzanne: In honor of the royal wedding, we dudes would appreciate it if, for the duration of the weekend, we were called blokes rather than dudes. Just sayin’.

  204. 204
    eemom says:

    And to think of all the shit poor departed ED Kain got for not engaging with the comments.

    And to think how consistently, condescendingly contemptuous AL was of him.

    Perhaps Cole was on to something with his “which is the worstest?” post about Romney earlier. On one side, an immature pseudo-intellectual conservative-libertarian-quasi-born-again whatever-the-fuck. On the other, an older woman who REALLY ought to know better throwing shit and then bailing.

    Nice friends ya got, Cole.

  205. 205
    Shade Tail says:

    OK, others have already tackled the rather dismissive tone, and the problematic (and arguably racist) reaction to Trump’s blatant and ugly race-baiting. So I’ll move on to this:

    First, does this “my problem is more important” business really happen as often as Laurie claims? I’ve seen it, sure, but I’ve never seen it often enough to support the idea that it’s a serious issue. Maybe I just don’t have a good line of sight to the problem.

    And second, this post seems to make the implicit assumption that there’s only enough political oxygen for a few issues and that everything “less important” should be ignored. Therefore, the post claims, separate groups pushing women’s rights and minority rights (for example) are a distraction from the larger goal of progressive society. That seems unfairly cynical to me. Instead, I think, disparate groups pushing separate agendas are a piece-meal approach to that larger goal, attacking the same problem from multiple angles. I don’t see why that can’t work, as long as they don’t fight and denigrate each other (see first point above).

  206. 206
    moops says:

    I’m also piling on. WTF is wrong with you ?

    E.D. Kain was finally shamed into showing up to the comment sections and having the discussion. And really, Kain posts have gotten better. The feedback and interaction have created a better poster.

    AL is just creating a vortex of crap here.

    newsflash. We are perfectly capable of working for feminist issues AND calling out racists jackasses.

    whodathunk?

  207. 207
    The Sheriff's A Ni- says:

    It was mighty white of AL to write up this post.

  208. 208
    Steeplejack says:

    @jl:

    Penis bad. FYWP no likey.

  209. 209
    aisce says:

    Everybody run send some tweets to each other! Blog about how those other progressives are failing to sufficiently acknowledge the hurtfulness of this issue within the historical framework of mine-is-worse activism! Then all we need to do is pick out the appropriate color and change our Facebook page, and the war will be as good as won!

    um, what? really? suck it up and deal, black people, and stop using twitter and facebook you stupid stupidheads?

    that’s what you’re going with here? i know its been said (and said again)…but damn anne laurie. that’s either hurtful ignorance or outright malice. maybe you should stick to the pet rescue threads.

  210. 210
    MikeJ says:

    @Steeplejack: I always heard mightier than the sword.

  211. 211
    Mark S. says:

    @Steeplejack:

    But cocks, dicks, and schlongs are all a-okay.

  212. 212
    Malron aka eclecticbrotha says:

    @General Stuck: This like a muhfugga:

    Well, if that was the point in a generic sense, then I sure don’t know why the left’s reaction to Trump and his nonsense needed to be thrown in as some kind of example. Because it seems to me, with some exceptions, the blatant and deep wound inflicted on black dems and liberals, and really all AA’s in this country has been more of a rallying point, rather than an example of the usual infighting.

    Bravo, sir.

    When I was a young twenty-something, fresh out of college and just starting my eventual twenty-five plus years of working blue collar jobs in two major unions, an older black co-worker known for spinning yarns to amuse us young’uns told me about how they used to make them take “poll tests” in the south every election season. He gave the following examples of the questions they were instructed to answer in order to determine their “eligibility” to vote:

    1. How many grunts are in a hog?
    2. How many barks are in a dog?
    3. How many toothpicks are in a tree?

    Now, whether his story was actually true is completely besides the point. What that older black gentleman was trying to do was to prepare me and my young, idealistic black coworkers for the reality that many avenues are still intended to be closed to us and that certain people will go to great lengths to set us up for failure. This birther nonsense is a bitter reminder to us that even when we do succeed, we’ll never be allowed to be seen as someone who got it the good old fashioned way: through hard work and being good enough to earn it.

  213. 213
    Linnaeus says:

    Looks like I missed quite a discussion here.

    In times like these, I think Bernice Johnson Reagon’s piece, “Coalition Politics: Turning the Century” is worth a read.

  214. 214
    eemom says:

    and this, also too, from the preacheress of the “protest Bradley Manning or be a sellout Obot tool” gospel.

    Yes, I can readily see why one little fucked-up treasonous Greenwald-hero is worth throwing this all-important “united we stand” mantra to the dogs over….. whereas a four hundred year legacy of shame toward an entire race of people is not.

  215. 215
    Allan says:

    Starting from the lament of the title (that turned out to be wrong), this post is like Megan McArdle times Harriet Christian, divided by Geraldine Ferraro.

  216. 216
    Rihilism says:

    Just reading AL’s post (without any context of any disagreement between AL and ABL), my first thought was, “gee, what an unfortunate and unnecessary thing to say”. Perhaps there was some defensiveness due to some perceived slight of AL by ABL? Was there a moment when ABL implied “my issues are more important than your issues”? I must have missed that, and if not, this post makes no sense. Even if there was such a moment, perhaps the particular case of “The Donald” was not the appropriate instance to respond to a perceived slight, since his actions have caused so much pain. It’s so easy to be defensive and to react defensively (I know, I’ve been there, done that). But sometimes saying nothing is the most productive route to take (I’m looking at you John Cole)…

  217. 217
    Steeplejack says:

    @MikeJ:

    Only if you’re fake Sean Connery on Jeopardy.

  218. 218
    Steeplejack says:

    @Mark S.:

    Hey, I don’t make the rules. Just sayin’.

    Although it’s odd that you never see a “shlong enhancement” ad. Maybe there’s a market there.

  219. 219
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Steeplejack: I believe it is schlong with a “c”.

  220. 220
    Ija says:

    @No one of Importance:

    I’m really disappointed that AL is among that group, or that she doesn’t see race baiting and the constant denigration of a black man’s outstanding achievements as just as toxic as what Republicans are doing to women.

    I’m not disappointed at all. She’s a white woman after all, why should her priorities be the same as people of color? What is disappointing is her basically lecturing other people that their priorities are wrong and hers are right, and everyone should just follow hers in the name of “unity”. Unity my ass. You’re welcome to your priorities, AL, if you think that a blatant show of racism is merely calling Obama “a dirty name”, that’s fine, but how dare you go around belittling other people for their priorities?

  221. 221
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    You people are seriously fucked up. You need to get over yourselves.

  222. 222
    handy says:

    We’re all PUMAs now.

  223. 223
    Uriel says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Maybe. Are you white?

    UMBRAGE, mother fuckers! Can you feel it?!!!

  224. 224
    Uriel says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Fuck it. I’m a white male so I’m the worst entity known to mankind.

    Now Ima gonna step back and let ya’ll take a big ol’ sip of this RIGHETOUS INDIGNATION ol’ Corner Stone is giving you a taste of! Is it bitter? GOOD! You hegemonic women of color- trying to keep a good, extremely bitter, white man down….

  225. 225
    Mrs. Polly says:

    This post is a mess. Nothing like using vague assertions relying on the passive voice,

    At the same time, Democrats—liberals, progressives, un-herdables—are accused of being out-of-date, using ‘outworn tactics’, holding on to ‘theories no longer relevant….

    unless it’s really atrocious insensitivity to other peoples’ experiences as in the Trump passage—unless the writer means to parody what Republicans think Democrats do, which for one brief shining moment I thought she might be doing. Then I realized that she actually was belittling how people of color felt and reacted to Trump and the Birthers, and my heart sank. I think. I still hope that’s not what she meant.

    Then there is the assertion that Republicans’ orders rule the workings of the Democratic party and set up a false duality:

    They tell us that we can have “civil rights” issues or “feminist” issues… and that these are by definition in conflict.

    Funny, I don’t remember Republicans or anybody telling us that, unless she means the ratfucking agency of PUMAs, whose blogs were (most of them are defunct) full of posts simmering with racial and gender resentment. Is this what she means?

  226. 226
    eemom says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    No, asshole. YOU need to get over yourself, if this weak-ass bullshit is the best you can do on a subject like this.

    Or perhaps you’d like to tell us more about Wealth And White Privilege.

    Is THAT why people of color should “get over themselves”?

  227. 227
    Joel says:

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-: Win.

    I also want to add, this thread has been one hell of a troll outing, hasn’t it? No one in particular being thought of…

  228. 228
    Dirk Gently says:

    I sense an upcoming ironic moment where a self-aware, self-emasculating, and self-effacing straight white man can play the part of humble arbiter/moderator in the ongoing struggle over feminism and civil rights. :P

    Also, “you ladies” are going to have some ‘splainin’ to do when 97% of the planet who is considerably poorer and less privileged in nearly every other category comes around asking impertinent questions about your lifestyle choices as a member of a “developed” country.

    This is not to slight very real and important issues pertaining to any person, people or peoples–just pointing out that nobody gets immunity from backlash when they tell other folks to STFU.

  229. 229
    AAA Bonds says:

    Man, oh man.

    I can’t begin to fathom how you could read that article and turn it into a diatribe about Democrats vs. Republicans.

  230. 230
    ABL says:

    @TruculentandUnreliable: Thank you. It’s like talking to a fucking brick wall over here.

  231. 231
    ABL says:

    @Linnaeus: Of Sweet Honey in the Rock fame!

  232. 232
    TruculentandUnreliable says:

    @ABL: No problem at all. As a white woman, I figure the least I can do is try and hold other white women accountable. I can only begin to imagine how incredibly hurtful all this birth certificate shit is, and to have people who are supposed to be your allies just handwave your pain away can only make it worse. I’m sorry that any of this ever happened.

  233. 233
    Ecks says:

    @Dirk Gently:

    I sense an upcoming ironic moment where a self-aware, self-emasculating, and self-effacing straight white man can play the part of humble arbiter/moderator in the ongoing struggle over feminism and civil rights. :P

    Oooh oooh oooh [waves arm energetically]. Can I? Can I? Pick me! Pick me!

    Erm [clears throat]. Listen here everybody [stares up and to his left]. Can’t everyone see that the real enemy here is the Romans! We should be fighting them, not each other!

    Or I could go more serious and analytic about it: It seems to me that there are two levels of infighting. There is the level of internal arguments about tactics and general reshaping of our culture into something more humane, and then there is the level of direct political actions taken to elect more liberals into the hot seats where actual legal policy is made and enforced and budgets are set. The second level is one we really and truly can’t ever afford to become too divided, and where some of us are occasionally going to have to swallow crap to keep the greater cause moving forward. But when it comes to debating on the internet and correcting people for being insensitive assholes, and the leadership of our various sub-organizations, then internecine bloody warfare is unfortunate and sad, and sometimes pretty insensitive, but not horribly fatal.

    Was that White enough of me?

  234. 234
    darkmatter says:

    Ye gods, not this again. You would think that after the last few times that AL posts a front page article that inflammatory, and then not even explain what on this earth possessed her to do this, is incredibly rediculous. You know, last time I checked, people like Chumpy Trump were our common foes. Those on our side of the aisle aren’t our enemies.

    After last time this happened, I need to ask the question: What purpose does this serve? I only ask because I’m getting tired of this fucking bullshit.

  235. 235
    Andre says:

    @AAA Bonds:

    Man, oh man.

    I can’t begin to fathom how you could read that article and turn it into a diatribe about Democrats vs. Republicans.

    It’s pretty simple, really. It’s called “looking for intellectual justification for one’s inability to emphathise with other people.”

    A scientific study on the pollination vectors of the common garden bee would have worked as well, it’s just all about stretching metaphors and analogies until they break under the weight of their own stupidity.

  236. 236
    Lymie says:

    ABL is right that the whole birthcertificate F*** sucks, and is hideous, deeply wounding, cuts at her core. But AL is not in any way trivializing the racist crap of our culture. I just don’t see how you guys are creating this fight when we all agree! I got banned from a feminist website because I misstated a posters age, and then said that it didn’t matter if the poster was 20 or 21 she was missing the point. I was ageist, not sufficiently respectful of her fee fees and the whole point was lost in ad hominem crap. The feminist premise of the article AL uses really rings true. ABL is doing exactly what she accuses AL of doing, substituting her priorities for those of another. I do think we can manage to take it all on, and not let the bastards get much further….

  237. 237
    eemom says:

    @Ecks:

    no. Just incoherent.

  238. 238
    No one of Importance says:

    @Lymie:

    ABL is doing exactly what she accuses AL of doing, substituting her priorities for those of another.

    Don’t be ridiculous. ABL and asiangrrl simply responded to AL’s outrageous claim that racism wasn’t as important an issue for debate in the USA as…er, well, anything. AL then doubled down on that claim. Blaming ABL is vicious and dishonest.

    As a feminist, I will not stand for another woman being attacked unfairly and untruthfully for standing up for herself, and as a supporter of equal rights for all, I will not stand for black women being denigrated by white women or their concerns about racism – which affects their communities far beyond anything sexism does to women as a whole.

    If that’s not your position, you are not a feminist I can recognise, and you are not a supporter of civil rights.

  239. 239
    eemom says:

    @Lymie:

    But AL is not in any way trivializing the racist crap of our culture.

    Oh really. Not in ANY way, eh?

    I beg to differ. Unless your definition of “trivializing” excludes anything short of “some of my best friends are black”-esque condescension, I’d say she scores quite a few “ways” here.

    The rest of your post is another point for the incoherence column.

    Funny how so-called “liberal” racist apologists end up there so very often.

  240. 240
    Ecks says:

    @eemom: Oh, well that’s all good then. It would be alarming if any post with that many Monty Python references started making any real kind of sense. Carry on everyone :)

  241. 241
    Lymie says:

    @No one of Importance:

    Thanks for the patronizing. So now racism is worse than sexism: “denigrated by white women or their concerns about racism – which affects their communities far beyond anything sexism does to women as a whole.” I disagree. They both suck, and black women may just get a double whammy. And you are making it up if you think I am denigrating anyone or their views.

  242. 242
    No one of Importance says:

    you think I am denigrating anyone or their views.
    Reply

    You’re accusing ABL of what she did not do and essentially blaming her for starting the argument. That’s denigration.

    They both suck

    Yes, they really do. But if you’re a white woman, racism doesn’t affect you. If you’re a black woman, not only does it affect you, it affects your menfolk, your male children, and your male role models.

    I would argue that racism – in America and in my country at least – is more toxic to the country as a whole than sexism, and I assure you, I consider sexism to be incredibly toxic.

    If ABL considers racism to be at least as important as anything AL is worried about, then I agree with her, and it’s wrong of AL to pretend that her being criticised is just a case of crabs in a barrel. If anything, I think AL is being the crab pulling ABL down.

  243. 243
    Lymie says:

    “But if you’re a white woman, racism doesn’t affect you. If you’re a black woman, not only does it affect you, it affects your menfolk, your male children, and your male role models.

    I would argue that racism – in America and in my country at least – is more toxic to the country as a whole than sexism, and I assure you, I consider sexism to be incredibly toxic.”

    There is our disagreement. I think racism affects me, and I think sexism affects everyone, and both lessen our society enormously. I have more chances to counter sexism than racism, just because of my community. I understand how ABL feels, because it is like having one’s own father treat their daughter as “less than”. It guts you. Notice I said “like” and not “the same”. And sexism is rampant regardless of race.

    PS Denigrating doesn’t mean what you think it means.

  244. 244
    No one of Importance says:

    @Lymie:

    den·i·grate
       [den-i-greyt] Show IPA
    –verb (used with object), -grat·ed, -grat·ing.
    1.
    to speak damagingly of; criticize in a derogatory manner; sully; defame: to denigrate someone’s character.
    2.
    to treat or represent as lacking in value or importance; belittle; disparage: to denigrate someone’s contributions to a project.
    3.
    to make black; blacken: rain clouds denigrating the sky.

    Means exactly what I thought.

    I think we’re actually in agreement over racism – which I agree damages all of society (hence my remark regarding toxicity). However, white people are not the *direct* victims of racist attacks. People of colour are. White people are not usually particularly bothered by racism because it’s not directed at them.

    My main objection to your original comment was the unfair accusation regarding ABL. And yes, I see “ABL is doing exactly what she accuses AL of doing, substituting her priorities for those of another” as denigration – and it’s also untruthful.

    I’m done here. You’ve chosen to misinterpret what inspired AL’s post, and AL herself is continuing to push the butthurt barrow. I can’t begin to say how much that disappoints me.

  245. 245
    Lymie says:

    Well, cool. I have now identified you as an emotional rather than intellectual commenter because you have tried emotional blackmail – (why do I care about your supposed disappointment – pleasing yooooo iss what I must dooooo!). And still, not understanding the meaning of denigration, despite a lazy cut and paste from dict.com. I disagree, mock, but do not denigrate.

    Don’t be a dick. Look it up.

  246. 246
    ABL says:

    ABL is doing exactly what she accuses AL of doing, substituting her priorities for those of another. I do think we can manage to take it all on, and not let the bastards get much further….

    What a load of horseshit. Point me to one single thing that I have EVER written or said that would lead you to the conclusion that I am substituting my priorities over AL’s.

    You do realize that I am also a woman and therefore experience sexism as well?

    Your comment is preposterous and not based in reality.

    I think what is more telling than anything on this thread is that AL has failed (again) to explain her post or to respond to any of the comments here.

    It’s cowardly and shameful.

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