I was once in an AIDS-ravaged village in southern Africa. The vague humanism of the outside do-gooders didn’t do much to get people to alter their risky behavior. The blunt theological talk of the church ladies — right and wrong, salvation and damnation — seemed to have a better effect.
Have you ever read a less convincing closing argument anywhere?
singfoom
Ah faith, so much more powerful than reason. This is why we can’t have nice things on this planet. Because AIDS is because god hates you and your fornicating ways.
When do I wake up and find myself in a world ruled by reason?
Dave C
Every time you have unprotected sex it makes baby Jesus cry!
Johannes
Least convincing closing argument since William Jennings Bryan in Tenn. v. Scopes.
jrg
So, now the germ theory of disease is “vague humanism”?
Dave C
@singfoom:
Not until robots rule the world and all the humans are dead.
David in NY
Notice the finger on the scale — “church ladies” are “blunt” but the other are “outside do-gooders” (actually doctors and nurses probably) who are are “vague.” So is Brooks actually claiming that a doctor saying: “You’ll die if you have unprotected sex with someone who has AIDS” is “vague”? Or isn’t “blunt.”
And exactly how did he know (besides his own predisposition) that warnings of hell sometime way off are more effective than warnings of death in the near future?
Propaganda at its worst. Orwell turns in his grave.
Rosalita
@Dave C:
Fixed that for you…
The Republic of Stupidity
From the top of Bobo’s glowing review:
Then, at the bottom, where Bobo sums it all up:
A ‘hilarious musical’… set in an ‘AIDS-ravaged, warlord dominated region in Uganda’…
Wow… just… wow…
What’s next, a laugh-a-minute, tune filled romp thru the world of the Khmer Rouge?
Moonbatting Average
@jrg: Shit, it’s only a “theory” anyway.
Just Some Fuckhead
This is why we Christian Humanists claim to have all the answers.
one two seven
So some uneducated people in a third world country are more persuaded by superstition and fairy tales than by facts and reason?
In other news, the sky is blue.
Chris
Right from the first sentence, I have serious trouble believing that Bobo would ever take any meaningful time in an AIDS-ravaged village. Either as an outside do-gooder or a fire-and-brimstone church lady.
And I respectfully suggest that a goddamn condom would have a substantially greater effect than either of the things he just listed.
mk3872
Great, thanks Doug, for posting this. Where can I send you the bill for ruining my keyboard after spitting out my coffee from my mouth when I read this ??
YoYosarian
Liberals mocked “Just Say No”.
See, it works, bc Bobo told us so.
cleek
ah. now there’s some old-school conservatism! this is how we’ve always done it. don’t ask why; don’t question dogma or authority. just do what you’re told. it might pay off someday. or it might lead to a lifetime of timidity, fearfulness and close-minded dogmatism. either way, evs. as long as you’re not fucking.
mk3872
@jrg: I think you get it. “Vague” means not rigidly defined within the confines of a single version of a published text.
Cacti
I believe this anecdote to be as real as the Applebee’s salad bar.
dr. bloor
@Chris:
Maybe he heard they had a good salad bar.
kdaug
When your base starting point is people who have never looked into a microscope, never heard of viruses or pathogens, and believe that disease is caused by witchcraft, which is the easier path: the doctor, or the priest?
David
And then they went to Applebee’s and lived happily ever after.
JCT
You do realize that reading Bobo can induce brain cell death, right?
So this is a guy who fashions himself a “thoughtful intellectual” (whatever the fuck that is) and is arguing for the superiority of “G_d told me to tell you” ?
I think Bobo’s existence make baby Jeebus cry at this pint.
Montysano
Bobo deposits that steaming pile of BS, then is “OK… moving on!” My high school English teacher would have bled all over the page for that.
Chris
@kdaug:
I thought this church was in southern Africa, not Mississippi.
Phil Perspective
@Rosalita: Shouldn’t it be Tim Tebow, and not Jesus?
A Farmer
Those church ladies sure have convinced folks that it is wrong to masturbate. Now if they could only convince us that God hates taxes…
Cacti
@Chris:
I thought maybe s/he was talking about this recent teabagger gathering in South Carolina.
Chinn Romney
My monthly allotment of 20 NYT articles is up, did Bobo mention if the Church Ladies could recognize Soy growing in the field? I’ve long felt this astute observation has been David’s greatest contribution to the letters.
Villago Delenda Est
Well, since Bobo didn’t confer with the local cab drivers, I think we can safely blow the entire mess of shit off.
Amir_Khalid
“Seemed?” Is David Bobo even asserting a fact here? Was he around that village long enough to compare the actual effectiveness of the outside do-gooders’ mealy-mouthed talk with that of the church ladies’ scolding? Or was he just noting that people are less likely to argue with an old lady who looks and talks like their mother, and dressing that up as an argument?
The NYT’s op-ed page has an editor. That person should be doing his job and asking David Bobo questions like these.
Nicole
@The Republic of Stupidity:
I saw Book of Mormon, and while it’s no Team America, it’s pretty hilarious.
Which doesn’t make Bobo’s piece any less stupid.
"Serious" Superluminar
Maybe it was some kind of humanitarian mission? After his visit, those African villagers were fucking grateful they were dying of AIDS.
adolphus
@The Republic of Stupidity:
I’m going to defend the musical here. It’s a Matt Stone/Trey Parker joint. You were expecting tact, decorum, and reverence?
This is what they do, and thank GSD someone does it.
Comrade Javamanphil
@YoYosarian: Sung to the tune of “Jesus loves me”?
Cacti
@Nicole:
Were the Ugandans sock puppeting glibertarian tropes?
Wait, I’m thinking of South Park.
Upper West
Alternate Bobo:
Winston Smith
It’s a convincing argument, but it elevates religion at it’s worst, so it’s a pretty offensive point.
Sharl
@The Republic of Stupidity:
I don’t think this would fly, but who knows?
beergoggles
@one two seven: Sounds like republicans..
"Serious" Superluminar
Now we just need Cole to post something about Sully (whose latest obsession seems to be Lady GaGa, which is at least on the right intellectual level for him) and we’d have the BJ trifecta of focusing on the dumbest blogs ever know to man.
Shalimar
@Chris: In defense of Brooks’ conservative Randian bona-fides, he does make it clear he was only in an AIDS-ravaged village one time. Maybe he missed a connecting flight and had time to kill. It isn’t like he makes a habit of seeing his inferiors in their natural habitat.
Chris
@Montysano:
We know this. It’s the religious viewpoint that conservatives deride as “wimpy,” “liberal” and “multicultural.” Also known as the lives of Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi and Jesus Christ.
So, is he coming over to this view, or is he sticking to the “kill ’em all and let God sort ’em out” view beloved by Osama Bin Laden, General Boykin, and the rest of the conservative world?
Chris
@Shalimar:
This is true. Anyone can have a bad day.
OTOH, Upper West’s explanation is also plausible. I could see him trudging his way to an African country if he was trying to help them pass Ugandan style gay-bashing laws.
Villago Delenda Est
If you look closely at Mormonism, it’s the Scientology of the 19th Century. Some of the beliefs it has are just outright weird.
I’ve known a number of people brought up with Mormons who got the heck out of there…and they don’t regret it for a moment.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@one two seven:
so you don’t find it odd at all that brooks still gets paid to write a column?
Yevgraf (fka Michael)
Can somebody please curb stomp Bobo? If you put the carnage live on Pay-Per-View and charged for repeats, it might pay off the national debt just from Juicers watching it over and over again.
Montysano
@Chris:
Gosh, he doesn’t say, does he? He wrote that paragraph, left it floating like a turd in a swimming pool, then skipped merrily on his way.
wasabi gasp
Sounds like Brooks just said religion is a prophylactic for ignoramuses.
Chris
@Montysano:
It’s not unusual for conservatives to gush about how peaceful, friendly, tolerant, patient and loving “we” (America/Christianity/the West/white people) are as a culture.
It’s usually followed by “but THESE people aren’t like that, and that’s why we need to wipe them out!”
Evinfuilt
@David in NY: At this point Orwell can be used to power a city with all his spinning.
The Republic of Stupidity
@Sharl:
piratedan
@Cacti: it’s probably where he bonded with that cab driver who was so profound in his life.
dmbeaster
I was once at an Aspen Institute discussion regarding our recent financial crisis. The vague Galtian talk of libertarians and Mr. Brooks did very little to affect the risky behavior of the banksters. The blunt force of regulations backed up with tough talk of the threat of criminal prosecutions seemed to have a better effect.
Nick L
It’s not just stupid – though it is fucking retarded. It’s enormously destructive.
The only way Brooks’ anecdote works is if he saw how “convinced” the churchgoers were at church. Well, sure. Churchgoers at a socially conservative church tend to agree with abstinence and the sins of premarital sex. It definitely doesn’t affect their real world sex lives.
Growing up in Oklahoma, I saw something similar all the time – kids in socially conservative families getting knocked up / getting someone pregnant, despite the “promise ring” (or even despite monogamy). We all saw it with Bristol Palin. Their families refused to talk about sex like adults with them (in most cases, this is enormously hypocritical), but teenagers have sex. So does everyone else. If “condom” is a dirty word to your teenager, they’re probably not going to use one when they inevitably have sex.
In this case, it’s far worse. The “risky behavior” wouldn’t be nearly as risky if these people had access to condoms, contraceptives, doctors, and education. But they’re in a very poor country with a very serious epidemic, spread by natural and healthy human behavior. Hoping teh Jesus will make AIDS go away is delusional, not to mention profoundly un-Christian.
God, I feel ill. What a fucking asshole.
PeakVT
I just love how Brooks promotes the virtues of adopting a religion not his own for other people in a land far away.
Nick L
Goddamnit, it just occurred to me that he didn’t even bother to name the village or the country. “Oh, yeah, it was a village somewhere, African (the black kind), lots of AIDS, religious ladies.” Obviously he cared.
Nick L
Goddamnit, and he didn’t even bother to name the village or the country. “Oh, yeah, it was a village somewhere, African (the black kind), lots of AIDS, religious ladies.” Obviously he cared.
Yutsano
@Phil Perspective: I propose that this is not an either/or proposition. The again I refuse to believe that Tebow is as virtuous when it comes to sexual matters as he claims.
Athenae
They allow OTHER PEOPLE to build their character. Not me. I don’t need to abide by those rules. You weak-minded simpletons, with your fucking and your organic food, do.
I swear nothing makes me more homicidal than listening to some comfortably situated loudmouth boring on over his full dinner plate about the character-building aspects of hardship.
In other smug rich asshole news: Poverty: Great Diet, or Best Diet?
A.
cleek
@Yevgraf (fka Michael):
no
Yevgraf (fka Michael)
The entire problem is the cheap grace and endless mulligans for fuckups that defines the filthy shitstain on humanity that is American evangelical Christianist thought.
In their world, you can fuck up endlessly, mewl the right words about how you love Jesus and get forgiven for your sins, even as you continue to repeat robbing, killing and fucking around. Then, you don’t even have to feel bad about what an asshole you’ve been, because Gawd will make it all right for your victims in the end, after death.
Winning!
Mike G
But religion itself can do enormous good as long as people take religious teaching metaphorically and not literally; as long as people understand that all religions ultimately preach love and service underneath their superficial particulars; as long as people practice their faiths open-mindedly and are tolerant of different beliefs.
Now go find a mythical Republican who agrees that religion should be approached in that way. Right after you locate Judge Crater, Amelia Earhart and Bigfoot.
eemom
but but but…..we’re “calling them out!” We’re teaching the movers and shakers of Beltway CW the error of their ways! Sure, it’s a slow process, but there could be a PULITZER at the end of the tunnel.
The Republic of Stupidity
This is O/T, but seeing as this isn’t all THAT serious of a thread and I somehow find it pretty funny, I’ll post it…
A mere $222,000?
Pssssshaaaaw…
India’s destructive pests have NOTHING on ours when it comes to making money disappear…
liberal
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yeah, though that’s partly because it’s a recently created addition. IMHO the original Christian “we’re monotheists, because 1 == 3” thing is pretty weird.
Scott P.
Brooks is 100% correct here. Apologists for religion often point to the small proportion of believers who have bland, ecumenical views, but such views are rare (at least relative to the world population of believers) and don’t propagate themselves.
However, I take issue with his apparent conflation of humanism with that vague, bland religiosity. As an atheist, I think humanism is just as strong as more dogmatic religious tradition, with the added advantage of being true.
So I accept his premises but come to the opposite conclusion.
Short Bus Bully
Screenshot or it didn’t happen.
Cerberus
Not that its worth pointing out, but every study on AIDS incidence rates in African countries show that a huge factor in the huge spread of the disease and difficulties in combating it has been the tight reign Christian missionary groups have on aid services, often demanding that aid be pared with “Christian morality” on the evils of condoms and sexual education in general.
Shockingly, the lack of sex education and low availability/use of condoms in the region are the big killers. Having unending hordes of “blunt church ladies” has been the exact problem preventing most available solutions to the AIDS epidemic.
Similarly shocking, it’s rather clear that evangelical groups see Africa not as a place to do genuine good works, but a great site for evangelizing new believers because you can pair access to aid services (education, food, money, etc…) with demands to convert before access. It’s also a great place to test culture wars that have seen losses in the states, thus its more important that a country bans condoms, abortions, female sexual health care in general, and homosexuality than poverty being addressed, women being educated, wars being stopped, people being fed, oppressive regimes ended, etc…
In other words, the “blunt church ladies” are repeating the sort of hideous crimes against humanity that were performed against the Native Americans in wiping out their culture in many countries in Africa.
And the general public view of this is about the same as said Missionaries were viewed in white circles back in the 1700s or 1800s in America. Oh, they are just doing such a wonderful job and it really is beautiful how much they do for the savages and what not.
In short, the best thing that could happen for Africa, especially regarding the AIDS epidemic is for every Christian missionary in the region to be shot in the head.
Fuck, most of these groups are going around telling the Africans that condoms actually increase HIV infection. Combine that with new recruits in religions that believe condoms are evil in general, the relative novelty of condoms in many cultures, patriarchal societies, and damaging folk mythology and conspiracy theories like “raping a virgin cures AIDS”, and no wonder the fucking sane humanitarians are “losing” (though in reality, the countries that have the most real humanitarians and sex education, rather than god bothering assholes, have also seen the greatest decrease in new AIDS incidences).
Of all the toxic nuggets David Brooks has faithfully spit-shined, this may be one of the more egregious. At this point, he might has well do a post on how liberals really need to embrace Birtherism and its PC culture gone rabid to see racism in Obama monkey email forwards, because he really doesn’t have the pretenses of a soul left.
Raenelle
I think I’d prefer an outright jack-booted thug to the vague musings of a corporatist whore who is thinks superstition is good for thee but not me. Brooks sounds like the 21st century version of shouldering the “white man’s burden.”
Now my blood pressure’s up. With meditation, proper diet and a smile I am normally very contented. In fact, I believe I could eliminate the word fuck entirely from my vocabulary if it weren’t for the fucking capitalists and their enablers.
eemom
furthermore, why can’t we haz post about McCain in Libya?? Seems to me that is pure 100 proof comedy gold.
The Political Nihilist Formerly Known as Kryptik
On an OT (but still religion related) note:
I forgot it’s Earth Day, but was able to scour about just in time to find this article about the apparent conflict between Earth Day and Good Friday.
I was depressed at the fact that there are folks who actually somehow see this as demeaning to Christ or Christianity…then heartened to see the article butt that back.
And then I lost all faith in humanity once I got to comments and found lectures about how daring to take care of the earth was somehow tantamount to the most vile of blasphemies. And further depressed when I continue to realize that these folks seem to be the absolute only people that the fuckers in charge of our country, on both sides, seem to listen to.
Yeah, Happy Earth Day, and Happy Easter, to you fuckers who shame both Earthlings and Christians.
Elia Isquire
When will I stop being surprised by how awful he is? When?
Cerberus
@eemom:
Well, there is some benefit to pointing out to a crowd of mostly moderate left-of-center middle class white people that the pundits their peers say are moderate heavy thinkers who really have a good grasp on common sense values that make sense are a bunch of tiny-brained authoritarian hacks prone to inane, evil, and downright stupid beliefs and statements day after day.
Now we just need to radicalize this group by getting them over their intense love of hippie punching and the strong social pressure to adopt a moderate stance for the sake of “fairness” and “not being prone to partisan blindness”. Here is the demonstration that the right is insane. The so-called middle is insane. The left is the only side with the actual thinkers.
Rosalita
@eemom:
My boyfriend this morning said he hoped McCain took a bullet in the ass
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@dmbeaster:
This, ladies and gentlemen, is what a winning comment looks like. Bronze it and frame it on the wall, right over the front door.
PIGL
@kdaug: In Uganda, where lives are actually at stake, I’d drop the slimy racist condescension, and stick with the facts.
Oh, wait, was it the Unites States of America to which you referred?
OzoneR
@The Political Nihilist Formerly Known as Kryptik:
Comment on that thread
Oh and God forbid we celebrate and protect the creator’s creations
Comrade Dread
It’s not an either-or situation.
We can teach people about safe, responsible sex (and condoms/contraceptives) AND share our religious and moral beliefs with them.
The Political Nihilist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@OzoneR:
But remember, Jesus died for lower taxes and free markets. Not for silly green fascists and hippies.
mistersnrub
Brooks’ mug should be the Oxford English Dictionary’s entry for the word “Twerp.”
joeyess
What? Was he stuck in a duty-free shop at an airport?
Chris
@PeakVT:
Conservative elites have a very, very, very, very, very weird relationship with religion. Some of them are geniuinely conservative, but as a group they tend to be a lot more socially liberal than the base, and a lot of them don’t want to pretend to be Christian. So they have to be atheists while paying lip-service to how beautiful the Judeo-Christian tradition is (preferably by comparing it to a savage debased cannibal religion like Islam).
The base sees them as “good” atheists, who’re okay because they demonstrate appropriate deference to the One True Religion. The elites see the base as trained pets, who’ll do anything for you if you just throw out a few buzzwords in soothing tones. They’re both just using each other, but it works for them.
joeyess
I’ve been in a self-induced coma for the last two days. When did we start moderating comments and who was the idiot that prompted the eminent owner of this blog to implement this idea?
Legalize
Well i HAVE been to southern Africa and I have witnessed first-hand what NGOs and other relief workers do with the power of medicine and education. So, would it be uncivil of me to wish that Bobo would just die in a house fire?
PIGL
@Cerberus: thanks for this. nothing to add, except a quibble about the relative proportions of insanity and evil.
joeyess
another question: what are the key words that trip this moderation trap?
p.a.
Has anyone seen any combination of McArdle, Brooks and Sullivan in a room together? It would be irresponsible not to speculate!
Rosalita
@joeyess: Either snark or you’ve been in a coma a lot longer than you think
joeyess
@Rosalita: I guess the coma was longer than I thought. What prompted it and what is the bot searching for? Was it Hermoine Granger? Because I don’t even like that character in Harry Potter.
Bex
@Rosalita: I’m with your boyfriend, but would it be worth the week-long 24/7 media coverage?
Yevgraf (fka Michael)
@Cerberus:
Amen.
joeyess
I know I’m whining, but I don’t like having red letters above my postings. It brings back memories of a shitty algebra teacher.
CJ
Is there some rule at the Times that you have to begin each paragraph with a ridiculously untrue statement?
Omnes Omnibus
@joeyess: Use of certain words that might indicate spam can randomly trigger moderation. The proper spelling of soshulism contains a six letter word for a pill the may produce erections last for more than four hours, for example. References to any activity, not hookers, that is legal in Vegas also trip the filter. This is apparently a FYWP problem not a Balloon Juice problem.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Rosalita:
I would pay cash money to watch somebody try to explain the last 6 years worth of events in politics in general and on this blog in particular to a coma victim who just woke up from 2005.
joeyess
For all you godless liberals that reside here, there is a atheist facebook page that is growing quite quickly if you’re interested.
joeyess
@Omnes Omnibus: I feel dirty.
Amanda in the South Bay
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
You win the internet today!
BC
Bobo is just repeating the meme that Uganda has AIDS under control because it has preached the conservative Jesus to its citizenry. I’m not sure that Uganda does have the AIDS epidemic under control. But I am sure that the Catholic Church’s stance on condoms has killed more people, especially women, in Africa than any tough missionary lady in any other part of Africa has saved.
gypsy howell
@Villago Delenda Est:
And Christianity is the Scientology of the 1st century, and Judaism is the Scientology of 3000 BC, and … shall I go on?
Trust me on this, all religions sound equally bizarre to an atheist. I still can’t wrap my head around the idea that grown adults actually believe in these fairy tales any more than I would believe in Santa or the Easter Bunny, but I’m constantly assured that they do. One is no more and no less weird than the next.
The Political Nihilist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@gypsy howell:
To be fair, at least Christianity and Judaism have coherent and life-affirming philosophies at their core, once you get past the brutal god mysticism and arcane dogmatic laws. Yeah, it’s ruined in practice by a lot of the big names, but even as a lapsed Catholic and present agnostic, I can at least respect the underlying philosophies of Abrahamic religions.
Scientology doesn’t seem to have any of that going for it. I could be wrong, but I don’t want to have to pay just to even find out the Cliff’s Note version of it’s philosophical base.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Amanda in the South Bay:
I didn’t make that comment, dmbeaster at #52 did; I was just quoting it. But thanks for the kind thoughts anyway.
Svensker
@JCT:
Especially when we assume that Bobo is not a big believer in God. More of a Straussian, and “God” is good for the lowly folk to keep them in line properly, even if it’s all a bunch of silliness.
Bobo fails as a humanist or as a religious.
The Republic of Stupidity
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
And perhaps the Chinese really are onto something when they just take ‘em out and shoot ’em…
Mnemosyne
@OzoneR:
That’s the logic fail that always confuses me. If your mother paints an oil painting for you, and you put your foot through it, do you really think she’s going to be happy about that?
Presumably they believe that God created this whole beautiful planet and universe just for us. Do they really think that he doesn’t care if we trash it?
(Fixed grammar fail)
Turgidson
to paraphrase the great philosopher Bart Simpson, I’m not sure how it’s possible, but somehow David Brooks both sucks and blows.
Geez, what a tool.
someofparts
The only reason I even notice Bobo is because of all the fun driftglass has dicing him into slivers – just absolutely world class snark.
That said, what DID actually impress me was a segment on Anthony Bourdain’s show. They were in Haiti, loading up on great food from a highly-regarded local street vendor. Bourdain noticed all the children hanging about. Upon learning they were hungry, it was quickly decided to buy out the vendor and feed everyone.
Within minutes some bigger local guys showed up and the next thing you know, they were taking the food and pushing the smaller children back. It didn’t look like the smallest children got a thing.
So, while I could hardly care less about Bobo, it does seem that doing good is tricker than it looks from a distance.
Villago Delenda Est
@The Political Nihilist Formerly Known as Kryptik:
Its philosophical base was to make its founder a pile of money.
batgirl
@cleek: What’s funny about Bobo and other conservatives running around screaming about the liberal “elite” is that their old school conservatism specifically relies on the notion of an elite class that rules everyone else. Because they believe these “lesser” beings are incapable of the reasoning and intellect of their betters, they believe religion plays an integral role in the control the populace.
@Chris: He’s talking out of two sides of his mouth. Bobo believes there are two classes. The class he is addressing this article to (those that read the NYT) are capable of dealing with ambiguity; everyone else needs the world painted in black and white with simple rules to follow, i.e. those poor African villagers. Better to tell them you will go to hell if you have sex than to actually educate them.
Asshole
@gypsy howell:
I’m still waiting for an atheistic explanation of how the Universe came to exist that doesn’t consist of either “It just popped up from magical nothingness” or “It goes on backward forever.” Or, “We don’t know, but that’s no reason not to assume there’s nothing like a God behind it, because in the absence of evidence jumping to conclusions is all part of the scientific method and doesn’t resemble a leap of faith at all.”
Bill Murray
This reminds me of one of my favorite jokes from when I lived in Salt Lake City
How do you keep a returned Mormon missionary from drinking all the beer at your party? Invite another returned missionary.
JonF
So, telling people to use condoms=Humanism
Telling people that they’ll burn in hell(which doesn’t stop people from having sex in this country)=quality work.
Jeffro
Personally, this was my favorite part:
Yes, tough-minded theologies and religions…THAT’S how you avoid mindless conformity…;)
Brachiator
@cleek:
I prefer bondage with my discipline. Just sayin’.
Bobo is is deeply stupid mode.
ronin122
@liberal: To be fair, 1 mod 2 = 3 mod 2, so they are equal in THAT sense….
Mark S.
At your next trip to an Applebee’s salad bar, David, strike up a conversation with a Creationist fundy. Then report back how much “rigorous theology allows believers to examine the world intellectually.”
That’s why the loudest objections to torture came from the religious right. Oh wait, the religious right didn’t give a shit about torture.
Asshole
@Cerberus:
Yes, it’s only by the systematic murder of countless thousands of people that atheism can establish itself as morally superior to organized religion.
HoosierPoli
I notice how Bobo omits the fact that this “effective” theological preaching is LITERALLY murdering the community it “serves”. But in Conservatopia consequences are irrelevant.
Can't Be Bothered
@Asshole:
And “god did it” is a qualitatively different statement how precisely?
themann1086
Was this seriously published in the New York Fucking Times? In 2011?
I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.
Asshole
@Can’t Be Bothered:
I know someone who’s never read Aristotle. The Prime Mover argument is an explanation. A causeless Causer. More importantly, it makes sense when taken on its own terms and when taken on terms of empirical observation- something that can’t be said for atheist quantum voodoo-magic, which even taken on its own terms is every bit as ridiculous as anything any religion ascribes to. “There’s no magic and it’s all science, except at the very beginning when science-defying magic happened” is flat-out fucking stupid. It’s Tooth Fairy/Santa Claus level stupid. I wouldn’t ordinarily say so, but when atheists are going to say that people who believe in God are like little kids believing in Santa Claus, it needs to be pointed out that atheists have to explain away some stupid ideas of their own.
Can't Be Bothered
@Asshole:
So atheists must explain the fundamental paradox of existence or they are “flat-out fucking stupid”? And saying causeless causer or prime mover does nothing to explain the paradox. It just dresses it up in pretty words. As far as I know, most atheists don’t claim any knowledge on creation. But I guess knocking down straw men in bad faith can be a blast sometimes. If you need to call the paradox god, have at it, but I don’t think that’s what the poster was driving at when he was ridiculing dogmatic religion.
Asshole
@Can’t Be Bothered:
Yes, if they’re going to smugly mock others for having explanations which are at least based upon logical principles.
No, it explains it. There’s no infinite regression, so something existing outside of space-time must have caused it. It doesn’t tell us much about God, but it does tell us there is one. I’m surprised you think God is a pretty word; most atheists think it’s very ugly indeed, and some say it’s about on par with Santa Claus.
If they don’t have a better explanation, then I guess I’ll just stick with the one that thousands of years of logical inquiry and philosophy have left us with.
Nice to know that atheists are arrogant enough to tell me there’s no God and that I’m an idiot for thinking there is one, though, when they can’t even explain the origins of physical reality. “We know you’re an idiot, but we don’t know why your logic is flawed. But you’re an idiot anyway, so fuck you.” That’s pretty much what I’m getting from you guys, here.
Sure can. Just ask gypsy howell:
No, he was just saying that anyone who believe in any sort of religion was as stupid as a little kid believing in Santa Claus. I haven’t heard any better explanation from you as to how the Universe began, so I’m feeling pretty much left with some sort of God- you know, the sort of thing they talk about in religion. The “paradox” of explaining God is something I feel very comfortable with not worrying about, since God is unknowable (almost by definition) by rational inquiry; what would be fun would to be hearing some explanation for how the Universe came to exist without a God that didn’t rely on magical thinking or atheist miracles. I’m still waiting on that, though, I guess. And since you haven’t given me an answer yet, I doubt I’ll get one from you, either.
Yutsano
@Villago Delenda Est:
And to avoid paying taxes on it.
Can't Be Bothered
@Asshole:
No, it explains it.
El Cid
That we encounter questions to which we know no answer and currently appear to have no path to find one does not permit us to both insist we are engaging in arguments based in available evidence and rational inquiry and to throw up our hands and say that it’s caused by magic.
AAA Bonds
God doesn’t exist. That shit is stupid.
Asshole
@Can’t Be Bothered:
Too stupid for words.
Asshole
@El Cid:
Yep, but that’s what the atheists do.
Asshole
@AAA Bonds:
Where did the Universe come from, asshole? Explain it, without God.
There’s no paradox if we say God created it. God may be a paradox, but the Universe is explained. The atheist position is blithe indifference coupled with defensive snarls at anyone who asks them for a FUCKING EXPLANATION THAT DOESN’T USE MAGIC.
Asshole
Here, atheists. Please try to refute this, somehow.
a) Things are caused by other things. Everything is an effect of a cause.
b) We could carry this back forever, theoretically, except that that makes no fucking sense whatsoever. Things had to be initially caused by something else. Something that wasn’t caused by anything in this Universe.
c) This “causeless causer” is the Prime Mover. I.e., God.
Asking me to explain what caused God is fucking stupid. It’s like saying that I can’t say that light is the source of illumination because then I have to say what lights light.
Nothing contingent, composite, finite, temporal, complex, and mutable can account for its own existence, and even an infinite series of such things can never be the source or ground of its own being, but must depend on some source of actuality beyond itself. It HAS to be sustained in being by an absolute plenitude of actuality, whose very essence is being as such: not a “supreme being,” not another thing within or alongside the universe, but the infinite act of being itself, the one eternal and transcendent source of all existence and knowledge, in which all finite being participates. That would be God.
I have yet to hear any atheist rebuttal of these ideas. And I haven’t seen one here. For how smug you fuckers are about how stupid people who believe in God and/or religion are, you’d think at least one of you would have a decent rebuttal of some kind.