Now I have no idea if that Arizona birther bill is constitutional, how it would affect Obama’s candidacy if it is indeed constitutional or anything of the sort, but I think it’s quite possible that with this bill, with Donald Trump’s candidacy, and with Village support for Donald Trump’s candidacy, we may see the beginnings of mainstream, serious, respectable birtherism
Earlier I said that some contrarian wanker like Charles Lane will eventually half-embrace birtherism with some counterintuitive jujitsu. That’s not so important, though. Here’s what I think could be important. Remember how four or five years ago, Republicans like Newt and Pawlenty were talking about how important global warming was and so on? Then when it became clear that the base didn’t want to believe in global warming, they decided they didn’t believe it in either (with possible caveats, e.g. “it’s getting warmer but it’s not man made”). Why couldn’t that happen with birtherism?
The corporate base won’t want to embrace birtherism the way they’ve embraced global warming denialism, but the teatards might. If there’s no way to tamp down birtherism, then why not double down on birtherism? The Wall Street Journal editorial page could express doubts about authenticity of the records. Instapundit, Charles Krauthammer, and Marc Thiessen could heh-indeed the doubts, and bingo it’s a real issue. Conor Friedersdorf could link to Dennis Prager’s thoughtful concerns. Authenticity of records, view differ.
I don’t see why we can’t end up at least part way down this road. I don’t expect Bobo or Chunky Bobo to jump on the birther bandwagon, but I think the right-wing rabbit hole could go deeper than people think here.
trollhattan
Channelling my inner George Will: “Well. Questions need to be answered. Why, if one considers the ’54 Dodgers….” Yeah, right, and we’ll tell you when they’ve been answered a sufficient number of times. My guess–infinity plus 1, which means only Chuck Norris can settle this thing.
maye
. . . except that whomever is running against O. will have to show their birth certificate, and it will be shown to be of the same quality as the president’s. Birtherism is something that doesn’t stand up well to additional scrutiny.
Felonious Wench
I consider birtherism a litmus test for the irredeemable. I have cut off friendships of many years over it.
I’d encourage anyone who believes in birtherism to yell it loud and proud. Helps me weed out people who are a waste of time and energy.
aimai
I don’t think they will bother. Full bore, Obama focused birtherism will die with Obama’s last campaign–win, lose, or draw. Because the so called “constitutional” issue will die. But what you might call “vulagar birtherism” will live on in the form of hundreds of small local bills meant to prevent future Obamas–not the kind that, in their imagination, were manchurian candidated into the country but on the citizenship of non white people in general (Birthright citizenship) They will go after the children of single mothers (because they insist on believing, on some level, that Obama’s parents weren’t married), children of illegal immigrants or people who are construed to be illegal because they are non white or somehow not “really” American. I”m waiting for them to make the mistake of going after home births because those, I believe, are prepondrantly loony right wing white people.
aimai
Bret
The funny thing is, if this would have passed before the 08 election, I don’t think McCain would have been allowed on the ballot either.
c u n d gulag
This is really the most rediculous thing I’ve ever heard of.
In all honesty, Obama really doesn’t need a birth certificate to be a US citizen.
Do a DNA match with his late mother. If the DNA matches, she is his parent, and de facto, he is then a US citizen.
McCain was born in Panama, for Chist’s sake. He could just a easily have been born in a fucking Yurt in Mongolia, and he’d still be a US citizen, if one of his parents were.
If Obama were white, does anyone think ANY of this bullshit would be going on?
If you can’t win fairly, I guess you have to try any and every stupid trick in the book.
Richard Bottoms
The politicians will do their usual act of saying whatever the GOP crazies want to hear, but Donald Trump? We will make sure he pays a price for this folly.
You can’t join the bigots and the southern racialists then keep your hotels, casinos and television shows safely segregated from the fallout.
It worked with Glenn Beck, it will work on Donald Trump. As far as business from black folks — say goodbye dillweed.
Dave
I don’t know…it’s had 2+ years to make that leap already. And it is something that is roundly rejected by Americans who aren’t Republicans…and a fair amount of Republicans as well.
I DO think it will become a component of how GOP voters select their candidates. Which is good because their candidates will lose in most general elections. But the US House will become even more of a mess.
MattF
I expect it’ll, at least, become something like the “Bill Clinton is a drug-dealing murderer” stuff. Not really mainstream but weird enough and dishonest enough to enforce group-loyalty among wingers. What’s Limbaugh’s current position on birtherism? I don’t keep up with the details of his views, myself…
EconWatcher
Geez, Doug, your proofreading of your own copy has sunk to the levels of Yglesias. Show some pride in your work product, man.
JGabriel
DougJ:
I don’t see how it could be. While the states have pretty broad discretion in selecting who is permitted on their ballots, they aren’t allowed to determine who is or is not a citizen. That function is reserved for the feds.
One would think even the lowest federal courts, where this would be adjudicated if signed into law, would recognize the distinction and rule accordingly.
But then, one would have thought the issues over HCR were fairly straightforward too …
.
EconWatcher
My dad is a full-on wingnut, and I was afraid to ask him if he was a birther. But when he was visiting recently, I gave him some great Kona coffee from Hawaii, and he said, “at least something good has come out of Hawaii.” I breathed a sigh of relief.
Small favors, yes. But it’s my dad. What am I gonna do?
BGinCHI
This post oughta be called “Concern Trolling,” Doug.
Seriously.
If the GOP wants to front and center this issue, with high unemployment and many other lousy things going on, and the Dems can’t crush them, then we might as well just give up.
Obama needs to do what he did yesterday, despite what Halpern and Politico say: constructive ideas, tough positions, smart governance.
patrick II
I have wondered if Obama actually minds the birther movement. Politically at least. From what I understand, his actual certificate of live birth exists on paper in storage in Hawaii. The newly elected governor of Hawaii is a friend of the Obama family and said he would put rumors to rest when elected. I assumed that he meant by releasing photocopies of the original document. But he has not, and I wonder why.
Anyhow, sometimes I think Obama ignores this because it makes the republican party look so silly and it is to Obama’s advantage that they keep looking like the people who believe the moon is made of green cheese.
Felonious Wench
And I would like to take this opportunity to thank Arizona, again, for making Texans look positively brilliant. It’s been a long, hard road to be outshone in the stupid department, but man, it’s a sweet victory.
My apologies to the Arizonian BJers on this board. All BJers are officially exempt from any aspersions cast on their state henceforth. Because I have complete faith in my fellow Texan’s ability to out-stupid all comers in the near future.
Zifnab
Birtherism isn’t like Global Warming. It’s more like Moon Landing conspiracy or JFK conspiracy. You can’t walk outside, wave your hand at some snow in late January and conclude, “Where’s the birth certificate?” You have to develop your own Atlas-Shrugged style long-winded and complicated counter-theory.
You have to explain where Obama’s mother was, if she wasn’t in Hawaii. And then why she traveled. And then you have to figure out who she was with. And you need some evidence (inevitably shoddy or fabricated and therefore requiring its own exhaustive defense) to press your point.
Pretty soon, you’re so obsessed with obviously doctored family photos
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201104070013
and the kerning on official documents that no one but another equally-immersed nut can keep up.
Dennis SGMM
A lot of birtherism’s effect on Obama, to me, depends on how much of a distraction it becomes during the 2012 campaign. Republicans are great at distraction, particularly when they don’t have any real arguments. See: Willie Horton, the Swift Boaters, etc. The media loves them some frothing at the mouth teabaggers and they can be counted on to keep this distraction front and center. The Republicans don’t need to convince America they just need to distract and sow doubt.
kdaug
@patrick II:
Keeping the powder dry. Look to Sep/Oct 2012. The right wants to run down the rabbit hole, wait until they’re near bottom to throw them the anchor.
JGabriel
DougJ:
Because it’s clearly self-evident to at least two-thirds of the population that birtherism is based on racism. Obama has supplied all the evidence of citizenship that was sufficient for a passport and would have been sufficient for any other white president. Hell, McCain was born in Panama and the birthers were just fine with that.
This is all about Obama’s father being black black blackity black, and only racists along with their conspiracy theorist dupes, the ignorant, and race-baiting opportunists pretend otherwise.
So doubling down on birtherism carries enormous risks. Yes, it might help you short-term in a Republican primary, but in the medium term of a general election, and the long term public image of the GOP, you lose the center and independents for being the party of racist jerkwads.
.
Villago Delenda Est
The only reason birferism survives is because there are people who want to desperately believe that there is some basis to deny that the near guy can legitimately be president, without specifically addressing his nearness.
If you catch my drift.
It doesn’t matter if the facts are against them. If you don’t have the facts on your side, argue the law. If you don’t have the facts or the law on your side, pound on the table.
They’re pounding on the table.
walt
The 2012 GOP presidential line-up is a virtual grotesquerie of oddballs, dimwits, cretins, and desperate wannabes. Let them have this Birther idiocy. If Karl Rove is worried, that’s a sign the rest of us should be overjoyed.
JonF
A state can block someone from the ballot, they can’t decide standards which means that they aren’t eligible to run for President in the state.
And I’ll die laughing if the GOP nominee can’t produce a birth certificate with the information that Arizona demands.
patrick II
@kdaug:
I think that is right.
Ana Gama
The funny thing about the birther bill in Arizona is that the Senate modified it to accept other documents instead of the “original long for birth certificate.” They will also take:
A certificate of circumcision
A baptismal certificate
A hospital certificate
A postpartum medical record
A census record
http://www.azleg.gov//FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/50leg/1r/bills/hb2177s.htm&Session_ID=102
Bob Loblaw
@c u n d gulag:
Really, you think a responsible way to resolve this permanently is to exhume a twenty year old corpse and force the President to give a DNA sample?
Villago Delenda Est
@Dennis SGMM:
The media’s sole interest is in generating ratings.
Frothing teabaggers are great for ratings.
QE fucking D.
danimal
@patrick II: I have no doubt that Obama lets this stuff go on for political advantage. Why wouldn’t you let your political opponents appear stark, raving bonkers?
I’m thankful for the birthers because once a person identifies as a birther, I’m free to ignore their every last word; it’s a 100% accurate stupidity identifier.
Martin
What’s considered mainstream? I’d say that anything that would carry a presidential primary for someone and therefore put it front and center for an entire election cycle is mainstream. That’s not majority support, but I can’t imagine anyone would say that it’s not mainstream when it’s a serious question in a head-to-head presidential debate.
In that sense, birtherism is already mainstream.
Dennis SGMM
@Villago Delenda Est:
Absolutely. And if the media’s we’ll-blow-anyone-to-get-ratings stupidity just happens to help the GOP then so much the better for them. The media isn’t exactly averse to a supine FCC either.
KG
Easiest possible answer to this:
Wackjob: Obama wasn’t born in this country!
Adult: Did you vote for John McCain?
Wackjob: Yes
Adult: You realize John McCain wasn’t born in this country either, right?
Wackjob: Yes he was.
Adult: No, actually he was born in Panama.
Wackjob: But he’s white!
Adult: Exactly
It is still hard for me to believe that this shit keeps going on. But then again, after the last decade…
Bulworth
I’m half expecting states with teabagging governors to just drop Obama from their state ballots, like they did to Abe in 1860. Then if Obama is re-elected they can complain that Obama was only a “sectional candidate” and announce their intentions to secede or march on Washington or all move to John Galt Land.
John D.
@patrick II:
Because it is illegal to do so.
zzyzx
@JGabriel: However they’re not saying that Obama isn’t a citizen, just that he’s not eligible to appear on the AZ ballot. There are all sorts of restrictions about 3rd party candidates which are perfectly valid so I don’t understand why there’s no chance this could be.
JCT
@patrick II: I think there was actually a legal reason that he couldn’t just release it. He had planned to do so. Besides, the people who believe this utter crap are not actually “teachable”, they are batshit crazy RACISTS — trust me, they would come up with some nutty explanation for the existence of the document (it’s a FORGERY!).
Because, as JGabriel pointed out :
Bottom line is that if they double-down on this they can kiss the entire non-white vote away forever. Can you imagine how all of this plays with legal immigrants? Good luck with that.
KG
@JCT: legal immigrants, their kids and grandkids. Hell, weren’t some of these fuckers talking about amending the constitution for Arnold to run shortly after he became governor of Cali (but before he realized we are institutionally fucked)?
aimai
@John D.:
I think the reason is because there *is* no “original document* anymore. There is only a data record from which legitimate parties are issued a certified copy. The birther’s think that there’s some “real thing” that is hidden away–perhaps they are also under the impression that everyone goes through life with their own, original, issued by the hospital BC stashed in a box. But the “real” Birth certificate isn’t that–its a copy of a record which, at this point, is on computer not in some big bound volumn and not in the bottom of mommy’s desk drawer.
aimai
Arky Vaughn
I just moved to AZ last year and am questioning that decision in light of the number of right wing whackoes we have in the legislature. I clearly don’t think this bill is constitutional but you should hear the “average man on the street” interviews with folks. “Yeah I don’t see what the big deal with showing your birth certificate if you want to be president”
Not a bunch of deep thinkers down here.
Joey Maloney
@patrick II:
He was advised it would be illegal. Even if Obama didn’t mind, it’s a violation of Hawaii’s privacy laws.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@danimal: Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
Max Peck
McCain was born in Panama but it was on a military base so technically he was born in USA right?
I ask because a friend of mine was also born on a military base in Panama and no one has questioned his citizenship AFAIK.
MattR
@aimai: This sounds right to me. It would not shock me if there was some archived version but not in any format that would let you selectively release a single person’s data to the public (ie. microfilm).
Hungry Joe
Red-meat birtherism has become a nutritional requirement for the GOP/teabagger primary base; every candidate will be required demonstrate kinship by stepping up to the bloody joint, ripping off a chunk with his (her?!) teeth, chewing, and swallowing. Come the general election the last candidate posing will wipe her (his?!) mouth with a dainty tea towel and go back to talking about cutting taxes and loosening onerous regulations on business.
Litlebridifrnt
For all those interested the people at The Fogbow are collecting images of birth certificates from all 50 states (and abroad) to see how many people would be kept off the Arizona ballot.
Link here
http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=5662
There is also a great discussion about the law here
http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=5662
which includes all of the unconstitutional issues as well as the Full Faith and Credit stuff. There are some wicked smart lawyers over there.
The citizenship information that the bill is requiring is because of the De Vattellites among the birfers, those that claim there are three types of citizens in the US Natural Born Citizens (born of two citizen parents on US Soil), Citizens and Naturalized Citizens. We believe that the reason that Trump hasn’t gone De Vattel is because he would be throwing his kids under the bus. We shall see.
another christopher d
@EconWatcher: My own dad has gone from relatively sensible conservative to full-on wingnut in the last year and a half. I think he just crossed the birther threshold a week or two ago. He also subscribes to Newsmax now. It’s frightening. If he goes fundy I’ll have to stop talking to him.
Bob L
Worth noting last year when Obama was at a low birthism was just about dead, now Obama is on a roll again birthism is back. It’s a direct reaction to his popularity.
Sasha
@c u n d gulag:
Yes, but it wouldn’t have nearly as much traction.
patrick II
@John D.:
Well, I googled after I posted and the story has been updated. See here. The governor has done a search, found manual notations of Obama’s birth in state records, but not, so far at least a full hospital generated birth certificate.
That seems to explain why Governor Ambercrombie hasn’t realeased it, not because its against the law — he hasn’t found it.
Villago Delenda Est
@Litlebridifrnt:
So, the children of American soldiers who happened to be born at say, Wiesbaden Air Force Hospital while their mother or father (or both!) were stationed in Germany are NOT natural born Americans.
Lesson here: don’t serve in the military, or your children cannot be “natural born” Americans.
Steve
Not going to happen. Even Ann Coulter is off the bus at the moment. Where they’re going is “Al Gore was actually the first one to bring up Willie Horton.” In other words, they know it’s too crazy to take it mainstream, but they hope to keep it out there and blame it on Hillary or something.
D. Mason
@Richard Bottoms: I dunno, on the face of things I agree with you, boycott Trump, especially the apprentice which is his most widely utilized product. On the other hand… he is making a mockery of Republicans by using their party process to pimp his floundering TV show, beautiful. Never have I seen politicians be whored out by the rich so flagrantly and in front of so many eyes.
Dennis SGMM
Doesn’t the Fourteenth and a Half Amendment state that white people are automatically and unquestionably citizens? The jokers who are wholeheartedly falling for this bull shit are also too stupid to realize that their masters will Do It to them the minute that it suits their purpose.
Villago Delenda Est
@Max Peck:
All true, but that did not stop Paulista fucktards from screaming that McCain was not eligible to run for President back in 2008.
Justin
Birtherism distilled down to its essence is the “gut” feeling that Obama looks like a “foreigner,” plain and simple. He was the product of an interracial marriage, which still drives some people bonkers. And if it has any intellectual foundations it would be a form of American Aryanism, the notion that even if he was “technically” born here, he shouldn’t be allowed to be President because he just doesn’t “fit the profile” of a Good German, I mean a Real Murrikan.
Yutsano
It’s just another variation of the Atwater principle. As soon as the darkie exits the Oval Office it will be as if the issue never existed in the first place.
John D.
@aimai: According to Chiyome Fukino, the HI Health Department head in 2008 —
It exists. The law says you can’t see it.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
for birtherism to become a real issue as such, there has to be a second act. ultimately, even though the proof has been put out there, the issue comes down to a show me, ok shown, then what?
unless the birthers can successfully make the case for demanding something that doesn’t exist as proof, then there is nothing more too it. the controversy then becomes about checking records, or the validity of records.
if you open that can, questioning the documentation, getting into dna testing to prove who your grandparents parents etc are, imagine how many white republicans, look a bit off-white in retrospect. they don’t want that.
really how popular would it be, if there was some sort of mass demand of proof of genetics? not very, when the issue hits as many times close to many of the homes it likely will.
Tractarian
Here’s what’s happened in the last week, from what I can tell:
1) A poll comes out showing Trump taking a sizable chunk of GOP primary votes, presumably based solely on his positioning himself as a birther;
2) Establishment Republicans, realizing their Frankenstein is getting out of hand – and knowing that a birther GOP nominee means Obama wins 60% of the vote in 2012 – decide to put the brakes on (see Coulter’s and Romney’s remarks affirming the President’s citizenship);
3) The House GOP releases their budget plan, instantly turning Arizona (with its millions of Medicare-dependent seniors) into a bona fide swing state;
4) The Arizona Senate GOP overreacts and passes the birther bill, oblivious of the fact that the party establishment is trying to tamp down the issue.
The bottom line: I need more popcorn.
Arsepain
Trump is a spoiler, not a believer. I mean really, could you even imagine that jackass as president?
JCT
@D. Mason:
But the Rich are the Republicans’ BFF! Oh well, you lie down with dogs you end up with fleas…. Just watch how all of these crazy wingnuts get their wings clipped by the Wall Streeters over raising the debt limit.
Silver Owl
Are the AZ legislature valid U.S. born citizens? I don’t think so because none have ever shown me their birth certificates nor has their state birth certificates been validated as legal.
John D.
@patrick II: Two things:
1) Under no circumstances is The Daily Mail a reputable news source.
2) The person who IS allowed to inspect the document says it exists.
Dennis SGMM
@Yutsano:
I’ll go you one better: if the GOP should produce a rising star who also happens to be an immigrant they’ll be clamoring for a Constitutional amendment to eliminate the “native born citizen” requirement to run for president.
patrick II
@John D.:
That’ll teach me once again not to believe what I read on teh internets.
Litlebridifrnt
@Villago Delenda Est:
Hey their rabbit hole goes even deeper than that, they claim that he is not an NBC because he was born with British Citizenship (via his daddy), all these great patriots (snark) are quite willing to let another country dictate to the US who is an is not a citizen of their country. By default they are basically saying to any Italian American, Irish American, Israeli American sorry you can’t be POTUS as well as to all the children born of the troops overseas.
They keep running down that rabbit hole in an attempt to find yet another reason why POTUS can’t be POTUS until they realize that they have trapped themselves into a corner. It is quite amusing to watch actually.
Brachiator
Serious and respectable is a contradiction in terms with respect to birtherism.
Who has the constitutional authority to review and rule on the authenticity of birth information? How would any disputes be settled?
This is beyond nuts, but I think that the larger purpose is to simply come up with some equivalent of “he’s a Muslim Kenyan anti-colonialist extremist” to give some Republicans and sad cases cover for their racial anxiety.
danimal
Maybe Obama should pick a state (there will be several) with a birther law on the books and allow the state to bar him from the ballot. He’s not going to count on Redneckistan’s electoral votes anyway, and the massive suppression of Obama voters will not play well politically.
If nothing else, it will shut up the fake vote fraud idiots who won’t want to compare their imagined instances of vote fraud with actual voter suppression numbering in the hundreds of thousands or millions.
Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel)
@Dennis SGMM: Like when Schwarzenegger was a rising star.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@aimai:
Actually, home births seem to be the domain of loony left-wing white people, or at least neo-hippie-dippie, anti-vaccinating, hospitals-kill-babies loons who are impervious to scientific evidence or facts – in other words, people who “think” like the the birthers in every way except politically. If the birthers start questioning home births, it would be like Spy vs. Spy, only with tie-dye and tricorner hats instead of trench coats and fedoras.
Dennis SGMM
@Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel):
That’s exactly what I was thinking of. The Republicans’ core principle is that they don’t have any beyond transferring wealth to the wealthy.
Nellcote
@aimai:
Index data referred to in HRS §338-18 from vital records in
the State of Hawaii is available for inspection at the Department of Health’s Office of Health Status Monitoring at 1250 Punchbowl Street in Honolulu. The public will be asked to provide identification and sign in to inspect the names and sex of all births, deaths and marriages that occurred in the state. Data are maintained in bound copies by type of event with names listed alphabetically by last name.
http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html
Tony J
IMHO the Arizona Wingnuts know full well their overreach will be slapped down by a Federal Court before the Election, at which point they’ll segue effortlessly into claiming that this proves the birthers were right all along because “Democrats had to change the law to force Obama onto the ballot”.
So, expect more of these bills to start cropping up.
danimal
@Dennis SGMM: For a while, they were considering introducing a change to the natural born citizen provision when Arnold Schwartzenegger was a rising star.
Villago Delenda Est
@Litlebridifrnt:
I don’t think they have the native intelligence to discern that they have indeed trapped themselves.
Yutsano
@Dennis SGMM: Oh they were falling all over themselves to change the Constitution when the Governator was still a star in the GOP. Now that he’s back to being a two-bit entertainer it’s like the issue never came up. And even if it did change you know Obama would be excepted in some other way.
OT: Firefox finally bought a clue. Obama no longer triggers a spelling error. Took em long enough.
Djur
For the life of me, I can’t find the specific case, but I am pretty sure the Supreme Court has forbidden states from adding additional qualifications for federal office. As I understand it, the main example has been striking down district residency requirements for the House.
rea
@c u n d gulag:
“Do a DNA match with his late mother. If the DNA matches, she is his parent, and de facto, he is then a US citizen.”
No it’s more complicated than that if you (1) have only one citizen parent, and (2) are born in a foreign country. To oversimplify, there is a residency requirement for the US citizen parent, to prevent citizenship from passing down generation to generation in a family with no real ties to the US. While the law has since been changed, at the time of Obama’s birth, his mother would have had to live 5 years in the US after her 14th birthday to pass on her citizenship if her child was born in another country. As she wasn’t yet 19, Obama wouldn’t be a citizen if born in Kenya, which of course he wasn’t.
Villago Delenda Est
@Dennis SGMM:
Dennis Moore, Dennis Moore, riding through the moor
Dennis Moore, Dennis Moore, on his horse Concorde!
He robs from the poor, and gives to the rich!
Stupid bitch!
Dennis SGMM
@danimal: @Yutsano:
Yeah, but that was before he did this:
Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel)
If birtherism goes too mainstream it might force Obama to make a speech. Not a speech about the budget (boooring, says America)but a speech about his origins. A speech about a controversy. America tunes in, Obama gives the speech, Republicans fume and pout that Obama has rhetorically outflanked them. Again.
ETA: mclaren translates the speech to reveal Obama’s extra-terrestrial origins.
Failure, Inc.
Not going to happen. I work with some of the most anti-Obama people you’ve ever met, fascists to the very last man, and not a one of them buys the birther nonsense.
JGabriel
@zzyzx:
From the Article Four of the US Constitution:
For Arizona to deny a ballot line to someone because their birth certificate does not meet Arizona’s criteria should be a fairly self-evident abrogation of the Full Faith and Credit clause. Arizona is not empowered to set birth certificate standards for the other 49 states, nor is it empowered to determine who is not a citizen of the United States.
.
jibeaux
Valley Wingnut Was A Lie!
danimal
@JGabriel: But how do we know that Section 1, Article IV is constitutional? Has the Tea Party seen this yet?
Sloegin
Arizona is, and always will be, pissed-off that it never had a chance to join the Confederacy.
Max Peck
It’s simple. The teabaggers are fascists trying to restore the country to a time of glory, a time when it was a white christian nation and everyone else just worked here if they were here. Obama ain’t white and does not have a christian name. Those two facts coupled with a fascist mindset are all that is needed.
“He’s not one of us.”
Calling it racism is only half the story. It’s nationalism, fascism, and racism wrapped up in patriotism and funded by rich people who frankly only care about not paying taxes.
Snarki, child of Loki
@Djur:
I think it was with states trying to enforce term limits on federal officeholders.
Dennis SGMM
@Sloegin:
There’s also the fact that sunstroke can cause brain damage.
JGabriel
@danimal: LOL’d.
.
kdaug
@Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal:
If you aren’t native Arapaho, Cherokee, or Seminole, you can’t legally be president (smaller tribes don’t count).
Max Peck
@Sloegin:
Join? I think we’re running it now.
The Confederacy didn’t die. Just because they lost a war doesn’t mean they changed what they believe. It’s still there.
STUCKZILLA!
I KNOW HOW WE CIN STOP ALL THIS BIRTHER CRAPZILLA. LET’S PRIMARY OBAMA’S ASSS. FREDDIE CAN LEAD THE CHARGE
BWAAA HAAA HA AH HAHAHAHA!
Bob L
Gee, how ever did George Washington get elected if citizenship was that strict? Not born in the US, check (no US before 1790) Born to foreign parents check (both were British citizens).
askew
@Max Peck:
I believe the law was changed after McCain’s birth. The Democrats in the Senate passed a proclamation in 2007 that McCain was indeed a US citizen to clear up any confusion. Too bad the Republicans are not willing to return the favor.
JGabriel
Sloegin:
In fact, AZ is so historically racist that it actually joined the Confederacy before it even became a state:
.
aimai
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
Yeah, that was kind of a joke. My second daughter was a home birth and everyone I know is a loony lefty. But I know the hoops you have to jump through to get a birth certificate for a child not born in a hospital and with no attending physician and they are fairly straightforward.
aimai
The Political Nihilist Formerly Known as Kryptik
At this point, isn’t it already mainstream (depressing as that is)?
I mean…when you literally have one major party in this country hinging its choice and frontrunners for the presidential election of whether they sufficiently believe the current Prez to be some blackie black Kenyan Marxi-Muslim usurper, that’s pretty fucking mainstream.
Brachiator
@danimal:
This would be insane. A sitting president now unable to run in certain states? Who would be the incumbent president for those states? And when he wins the general election, would these states consider him to be the legitimate president of the United States or would they consider his opponent to be president, even though that person lost the general election?
This move by Arizona could be considered a form of secession.
Benjamin Cisco
This is what they see, and I’d pay money to see Obama break this routine out at the next Correspondent’s Dinner..
aimai
@Nellcote:
I don’t want to disappear down the rabbit hole here since I know Obama is a natural born citizen or whatever the lingo is. But your information which is that the “original document” can be shown conflicts with the assertion by someone else, citing Linda Lingle, that the “original document” can not be shown. Since I was simply discussing the right wing argument (s) such as they are upthread I’ve been corrected by two people with two conflicting arguments about the existence or otherwise of the supposed “long form.” I understood that there was no such thing and that Obama has actually released what is available to him. I think the same thing that is “on file” is what he has already released. The birthers are insisting there’s something else, some other phantom document, which does not in fact exist at all from the time Hawaii went to digital records. But I’m happy to be corrected. I’m only channelling the crazy, not crazy myself.
aimai
kdaug
@Yutsano:
Ok, it’s a repeat, but if you’re having trouble with Windows and Firefox, try this.
Yutsano
@Brachiator: It’s really funny because if they don’t allow Obama on the ballot and he wins anyway, Arizona just disenfranchized their citizens because…well, at least we didn’t have to VOTE for him, so take that! It’s a futile exercise even if it passes court scrutiny, because the next step is not recognizing the election, and we sell them back to Mexico. I doubt this gets anywhere, though with charmers like Russell Pierce running the show who knows?
@kdaug: Okay that made me seriously LOL.
Gregory
In other words, it’s the same mainstreaming of extreme conservative positions that Joe Conason outlined in Big Lies…in 2003.
Bokonon
Well … mainstreaming this stuff could become serious, if it becomes a neat trick for trying to keep national candidates off the ballot in some states (since they haven’t successfully navigated the state’s eligibility rules).
Ahem.
Dennis SGMM
@Benjamin Cisco:
Lamentably, I think today’s crop of White House correspondents would warm up to Obama more if he shuffled his feet, rolled his eyes a lot and then played the banjo.
John D.
@aimai: You are conflating several things:
1) Obama can request a certified copy of his BC. He has done so. It is what he released.
2) There is an original, partially handwritten document on file with the Vital Statistics people in Hawaii, in a bound tome. A very limited number of people would be allowed access to that document. Copies of it are not allowed.
Calouste
@Tony J:
I doubt Obama is going to challenge this himself directly. It would be easier to have someone else try to register for a primary in Arizona and produce a birth certificate that doesn’t meet the exact standards. It’s not like Obama needs to be on the primary ballot in Arizona to win the nomination. I wonder if someone like Fred Karger is willing to take that up, it would get him a lot of free publibity.
Martin
@Bob L:
They built in an exemption for anyone born prior to the ratification of the Constitution.
Of course, using 2nd amendment comma exclusion math, that ‘or a Citizen of the United States’ could be an independent clause and therefore anyone who is a citizen can become President. Consistency – SCOTUS knows not of the word sometimes.
Benjamin Cisco
@Dennis SGMM: True, which is why I would prefer he went all Samuel L. Jackson on ’em, now that I think about it. Would serve the bastards right.
Stefan
You have to explain where Obama’s mother was, if she wasn’t in Hawaii. And then why she traveled. And then you have to figure out who she was with.
In 1961, I believe it was actually common practice for pregnant, 19 year old, white American college freshman at the University of Hawaii to travel to the British crown colony of Kenya to give birth (especially considering how cheap and convenient air travel was at the time).
Dennis SGMM
@Benjamin Cisco:
“Who put these motherfucking snakes under your motherfucking tables?”
Martin
@Dennis SGMM: I love the banjo!
chopper
@Martin:
funny thing is, you could start at the end, constitutionally speaking; only a natural born citizen is eligible to be president, and obama already is president, ergo he must, by definition, be a natural born citizen. he doesn’t have shit to prove, having already gotten the job.
Laertes
Birferism will not go mainstream.
The GOP has made their position clear. Their propaganda channel has started scrubbing birferism from their lineup, and are having their talking heads (cf. O’Reilly, Coulter) attack birferism head-on.
It’ll always live on among gun nuts and gold bugs, but with FOX working hard to tamp it down, it’s very likely already peaked and now in decline.
Trump’s embrace of birferism will further discredit it.
Predictions:
– O’Reilly will keep hammering on birfers, at least once every couple of months.
– When Trump comes up empty-handed in Hawaii, FOX will run pretty heavily with it.
– No other major GOP candidate will ever publicly embrace birferism with anything approaching Trump’s enthusiasm.
Redleg
Who is “Chunky Bobo?” It sounds like a flavor of Ben & Jerry’s Icecream.
Elia Isquire
I’d be surprised to see this happen b/c of how racially charged the whole thing is. I know the media’s looked the other way with clearly only barely concealed racialized sensationalism, but something tells me the fact that it’s based on conspiracy theories (media hates anyone who thinks their narrative isn’t obviously the complete truth) and it’s the preznit, I feel like they’d treat it with derision if anything. It’s totally possible though; I’m surprised almost monthly by the MSM’s ability to keep chucking that ficken.
kdaug
@Stefan: Well, to be honest, her background of wealth and privilege from her farmer parents in Kansas likely did afford her the opportunity.
I just can’t explain why she didn’t choose Geneva. That’s where all the cool cats were heading, and she could have done some banking while she was there.
JGabriel
@Yutsano:
“Ooh,” he said excitedly, “can we?”
I would love to sell those fuckers back. That wouid be the pure crack form of schadenfreude, seeing one of those teabagger assholes sputter, “Whaddayoo mean we’re all Mexicans now?”, right before keeling over from apoplexy.
.
kdaug
@Dennis SGMM: “They’re commin’ ta getcha!”
chopper
bobo and his chunky sidekick aren’t going to jump on the birther bandwagon, but they sure as hell are going to spend a lot of time complementing the wagon’s precise handling and snappy paintjob.
Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel)
@Redleg: Lexicon:
danimal
@JGabriel: If you listen to the talk radio cranks, we’ve already ceded chunks of our national parks along the border to Mexico (or Mexican drug cartels), so making the rest of the state a part of Mexico becomes a logical progression.
Stefan
Well, to be honest, her background of wealth and privilege from her farmer parents in Kansas likely did afford her the opportunity.
While this is all crazy, one of the craziest things about it is the lack of any plausible explanation about how a relatively poor pregnant college freshman at the University of Hawaii would somehow have given birth not in the US. There’s never any plausible explanation or rationale as to how she would have left or where she would have gone or why she would have done so.
Martin
Oh, and all of this birth certificate stuff is bullshit anyway. Even if he produces his original long-form birth certificate, it still doesn’t disprove the truth of the situation, that Obama came back in time from the 23nd century, planted those documents formed ACORN, then rigged the 2008 election so he’d win and then be able to destroy America from the inside because the 23nd century that he left had no taxes or government regulation. All commerce was conducted with uranium coins, and the incandescent light bulb was found to cure gayness.
Triassic Sands
If there is one thing that is obvious in this country it is that being “mainstream” doesn’t make something “respectable.”
That’s the problem when stupidity and ignorance are so widespread.
priscianus jr
When you say “birtherism could go mainstream,” what that really means is that the “sane” wing of the GOP would cease to be a factor in GOP discourse. The number of people who espouse birtherism would not increase nor would the general acceptance of it by the American public. So what that actually means is not that birtherism would go mainstream, but that the GOP would go completely fringe and beyond. It would continue to be treated by the press and of course in government as a mainstream party, but would lose its credibility with everyone who was not actually a Republican. And no doubt we would see an uptick in the already significant drop in party identification with the GOP.
mds
@aimai:
Look at the budget cuts Congressional Republicans have already embraced. And given how many single-parent families are poor, the onerous “voter fraud” bills are already reinstituting poll taxes that adversely affect them. That they haven’t explicitly gone after their citizenship yet is only somewhat comforting.
Passing “clarifying” legislation to alter the plain text of the 14th Amendment so it doesn’t apply to those “anchor baby” cockroaches is already a widespread Republican position.
Indeed, as Justice Kagan’s dissent in Winn noted, taxpayer standing to challenge Establishment Clause violations in their states is now pretty much a dead letter. Expect the Right to redouble their assault on Article VI religious test prohibition, so that we can finally make sure that only real Christian folk can vote. Hell, apparently Muslims aren’t even supposed to be able to own property.
catclub
@chopper: An inversion of the ‘no true scotsman’ argument!
The Raven
The Tea Party Republicans already do embrace birtherism. So does Donald Trump. Isn’t it already mainstream?
& here I thought legitimacy disputes only happened in monarchies.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
I’ve always thought the right wing rabbit hole to be quite deep. As in well below the solid portion of the earth’s mantle.
Martin
@chopper: I think that’s actually the reasoning the higher courts have used to throw out the birther cases. “How can he be ineligible to be president when he’s already been sworn in?”
danimal
@Martin: As soon as the “long-form” birth certificate gets released (apparently we’re still waiting for the 23rd century forgers to finish their work), the Rathergate crew will find a flaw in the document kerning, or the ink composition or the legibility of the doctor’s handwriting.
There will never be enough proof; it’s a fools’ errand.
Tony J
@Calouste:
The Obama 2012 people won’t go anywhere near this, like you say, they don’t have to. Someone will challenge it, and it’ll be found to be laughably unconstitutional.
The wingnuts in Arizona know this, but having the law on the books come November 2012 isn’t their objective. They just want to provide the building blocks for a comforting “Everyone knows..” narrative that will allow them to continue calling the entire Obama Presidency illegitimate.
After all, if he’s got nothing to hide, why would he have his agents conspire with activist judges to get an innocuous law removed, eh? No smoke without fire, etc.
Remember, this law is supposed to appeal to people who, deep down, know that their bestest Presidenter evah (the liberal George W Bush) wasn’t legitimately elected in 2000. They want, they need, to be told that stealing the Presidency was justified because, as ever, the Democrats are worse.
The crazy needs to be fed. This is just red meat with a lot of tang for jaded palates.
Calouste
Btw, there are no birth certificates in the names of William Jefferson Clinton or Gerald Rudolph Ford, Jr. Both presidents changed their names later in life.
tkogrumpy
With 130 comments it appears birtherism is a hot topic here. I don’t think so.
Shoemaker-Levy 9
Pretty much all the mainstream reporting I’ve seen, when they mention the issue at all, states as a point of fact that Obama was born in the U.S. If, for instance, Trump became the front runner this would be a dilemma for Jake Tapper and colleagues: “The Book says to treat Trump’s positions as serious but I’m already on the record calling birtherism a fringe conspiracy theory. What do I do?” I think it’s about time the Village Cult do some serious examination of their idiotic religious tenets, so if Birtherism forces them to do this I’m all for it.
Dennis SGMM
@priscianus jr:
At present, the Republicans remind of John Goodman in Barton Fink. You know; the scene where he’s carrying a double-barreled shotgun down a burning hallway while shouting “I’ll show you the life of the mind!”
Arclite
Funny, this would have made John McCain illegible…
UPDATE: Heh, I see this was addressed in comment 5.
priscianus jr
@Calouste:
priscianus jr
@tkogrumpy:
patroclus
Whenever I read the name “Charles Lane” all I can think about is Mannequin Skywalker lying about Ian Resnik and Jukt Micronics and blaming “Chuck” for it.
Makewi
On what grounds?
Tony J
Oh noes, there’s a troll come to edumacate everyone.
puts feet up
sukabi
Birtherism — sure it could go “mainstream”, but when you’ve got Bill O’FcukingReilly “debunking” it something’s afoot. Maybe HE got a look at Trig’s birth certificate and this is Fox’s warning shot across the bow…
(Palin has gotten on the wrong side of Ailes after all)…
Barry
“The corporate base won’t want to embrace birtherism the way they’ve embraced global warming denialism, but the teatards might. ”
They might like it quite a bit – if it weakens Obama, they’d be for it. They’ll just not want to literally embrace it. They’ll use deniable agents.
Omnes Omnibus
@Makewi: Full Faith and Credit Clause. Supremacy Clause.
matoken_chan
When do we see Donald Trump’s hairpiece providing proof of American citizenship? Do we really want to see an alien constructed in China from the pubic hair of virgin Communist orangutans occupying the White House?
cokane
its already going somewhat mainstream: hannity, palin, trump, even huckabee slightly, all birthers imho to one extent or another. It’s funny, the signature republican issue may just be centered around Obama’s birthplace/chilhood.
Makewi
@Omnes Omnibus:
Thanks. I think you’re right, The Full Faith and Credit Clause should cover it.
Bob In Pacifica
@JGabriel: I’m liberal as hell (they are very liberal down there) but it seems apparent to me that the government forcing someone to buy insurance just because they’re alive is unconstitutional. If they can do that then what would stop the government from forcing everyone to buy a Pocket Fisherman?
And please, no comparisons to car insurance. You don’t have to buy car insurance if you don’t own a car or don’t operate one on public streets.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the healthcare thing was thrown out as unconstitutional. That’s why a single-payer would have been better.
Arclite
@Max Peck:
From wikipedia:
Chris
It depends what you mean by “the base.” I would speculate that their popular base had no real opinion one way or another, but that the corporate base was pretty freaking unhappy, let that be known, and converted the base via the Noise Machine.
Bobby Thomson
@Villago Delenda Est:
Except that’s wrong. Natural born just means you’re a citizen at birth.
Southern Beale
I always get Chunky Bobo confused with Doughy Pantload.
Dang. Y’all need to have a cheat sheet or something.
Bobby Thomson
@Arclite: No, McCain was a citizen at birth, regardless of where he was born, because both parents were citizens.
Born in U.S. = natural born citizen; parentage irrelevant.
Born to two U.S. citizens = natural born citizen; birthplace irrelevant.
Born out of U.S. to other than two U.S. citizens = “it depends.”
Arclite
@askew:
Yeah, but it was a non-binding resolution.
patrick II
@Bob In Pacifica:
Because you live in a democracy and anyone who made everyone buy a pocket fisherman would be voted out of office. There are laws that passed that are declared unconstitutional because they are in contradiction to our basic rights and the system protecting those rights, but with those exceptions congress can pass any law they want. They just won’t get re-elected if it’s a bad law.
Arclite
@Bobby Thomson:
This seems very much up in the air. Born in the US, parentage irrelevant is determined definitively by the 14th amendment, but McCain’s case of born outside the US to two American citizens seems very much up in the air. From Wikipedia:
Stefan
And please, no comparisons to car insurance. You don’t have to buy car insurance if you don’t own a car or don’t operate one on public streets.
And similarly, you won’t have to buy health insurance if you’re never going to get sick or seek medical attention for the rest of your life.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Pacifica:
Not everyone lives near a body of water, but every single person in the United States will at some point in their life need medical care. It’s not something optional like a car.
You are falling into the trap of seeing healthcare as a luxury good that only people who can afford it should have, not a right.
JGabriel
@matoken_chan:
Give me minute. I’m thinking …
(h/t Jack Benny)
.
JGabriel
@Bobby Thomson:
MOSTLY irrelevant: there is the foreign diplomat exception.
.
bob_is_boring
Perhaps some clever congresscritter will publish and publicize a pro-birther screed with a bunch of [irrelevant, made-up] numbers in it so the pundits (I need not mention names) will declare it “brave” and “serious.”
Monala
@Ana Gama: What’s the point of a baptismal record? It doesn’t list one’s citizenship, and since babies can be baptized at any time after birth (it’s not like circumcision, which is generally done about 7 days afterward) and generally aren’t baptized until they’re at least 3 months old, a baby could have been born anywhere, no matter where they are later baptized.
But I suppose a baptismal record proves the baby (or at least his/her parents) is a Christian. And that’s good enough for the wingnuts…
artem1s
@cokane:
the GOP primary debates are going to be a riot if this gains any traction. What’s left of the ‘serious’ repugs are now thoroughly screwed. Any move on their part to exclude the wingnut candidates not only leaves the stage nearly empty, it’s sure to elicit charges of conspiracy from the Teahaddists. Doomed if they do, doomed if they don’t.
can’t wait for debate bingo.
Trent
Ann Althouse seems to have gone Birther in the way you suggest. It started around the beginning of this year. She also started linking to WND as a news source:
http://althouse.blogspot.com/search/label/Obama%27s%20citizenship
Punchy
How did we have TWO whole threads….almost 300 combined comments, and NOBODY mentioned Oily Titz? Really? The GodMuttah of Goof, the Queen of Quack, Whore-ish Makeup Raccoon Eyed Trollop….and nobody’s getting her take on this?
Mnemosyne
@Punchy:
It’s because she keeps getting her ass kicked in court. The Republicans trying to make birtherism respectable won’t touch her with a 10-foot pole.
piratedan
@Sloegin: it did, but only as a territory, as the southern section of the New Mexico Territory, so no stars on the stars and bars for it.
tavella
Nope. Military bases don’t count as US soli for jus soli citizenship, or else we’d have people all over the world trying to sneak on to them while pregnant. In fact, I don’t believe he was born a military hospital, as it wasn’t constructed yet, but it wouldn’t matter if it was.
The truly amusing thing is McCain wasn’t a citizen when he was born; he only got his ‘birthright’ citizenship retroactively, when the Congress figured out they had fucked up the year after he was born. (Short form: Panama Canal Zone was under US control and sovereignty, so not “abroad” for the purposes of citizenship law. But it also wasn’t part of the US for the purposes of determine jus sanguinis citizenship (the Insular Cases.)
It’s been fixed now, so your friend is indeed fine, but there’s always the question — can you be natural-born if you weren’t a citizen at birth?
geg6
@Richard Bottoms:
Yeah, I really don’t think the Donald has thought this through, business wise. But then, that’s pretty much his MO, isn’t it? The guy owned a fucking casino and IT WENT BANKRUPT!
KG
@askew: actually, they passed a proclamation for both Obama and McCain.
West of the Cascades
Arizona’s proposal really is ridiculously unconstitutional.
States have a legitimate interest in having a candidate for any office provide evidence that they’re qualified for that office – for example, a city council that has a residency requirement can ask for proof you live in that city to run for a position on city council. Likewise to prepare a ballot for national elections, a state can legitimately require proof that someone is a “natural born citizen” (and 35 years old) as Art. II of the US Constitution requires to hold the office of President.
But where this bill goes insanely too far is that it asks for specific documentation far beyond what other states prepare to document a birth within the state (which is enough to make you a “natural born citizen” under the 14th Amendment and the Wong Kim Ark decision – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark), and therefore violates the Full Faith and Credit Clause. Also, to the extent Arizona’s law asks for a broader and more specific set of evidence than federal law does (for purposes of showing citizenship by birth – e.g. what you need to produce to get a passport on the basis of being born a US citizen), it violates the Supremacy Clause.
Frankly, this would be an area that Congress, IF it could act in good faith, could settle a lot of these issues through fairly simple legislation (declare that whatever official birth certification any state or the federal government uses is sufficient to show any other state for purposes of certifying qualification to hold the office of President, also maybe clarify the issue of “natural born citizenship” for people physically born outside of the US — something that would have been helpful for clarifying John McCain’s qualification to be President, and future similar instances).
I’ve always been intrigued by this question because I was born in Chile of US parents — I’ve always thought that makes me a “natural born citizen” of the US, and I have a State Department certificate of birth, but I’ve also figured out that it is not 100% clear. And less clear is the status of someone born outside the US to parents where only one is a US citizen. Seems to me (as a policy matter) we’d want that person deemed a “natural born citizen” both in terms of getting automatic US citizenship at birth as well as for, eventually, being qualified to be President.
One disappointing downside of Birtherism is that it makes some reasonable, fairly straightforward clarification of the term “natural born citizen” and how you demonstrate that almost impossible. The ridiculousness of the right wing, beyond refusing to govern directly without acting like 2-year olds, also indirectly prevents government from addressing legitimate policy questions (“what practical mechanism should be required for a candidate to show they possess the qualifications to hold a particular office?”) – turning fairly simple issues of governance into bizarre meta-discussions that the political system seems to no longer be able to address rationally.
PhoenixRising
@JGabriel:
On Tuesday, the majority of the 5CA released a decision which would–if upheld–make that your opinion rather than federal law.
They decided that LA can refuse to issue a birth certificate (which in this case is an administrative act analogous to putting someone on the ballot; there are certain requirements in LA law and the person otherwise meets those requirements) to a person whose parents LA law doesn’t like.
They rejected both his FFCC claim AND an equal protection claim, on the basis that, wait for it–Louisiana has the right to determine whether to recognize a NY adoption.
In addition to being contrary to the 10CA ruling on the same issue–which found that OK could not refuse to administratively recognize an adoption it would not have allowed, due to FFCC–this cuts into full faith and credit as it pertains to all family law questions, which are state questions generally but become federalized when states refuse to recognize other states’ family law actions.
Point being, each state has its own admin rules and FFC is the only thing that protects states’ actions under those rules from being tossed aside at state lines. What AZ is trying to do (well obviously what the AZ lege is trying to do is keep the black guy off their creamy, fresh, smooth white …ballots but let’s pretend for a moment) similarly tosses aside Hawaii’s right to determine what a HI certified BC says. By saying, That’s no good in AZ.
So as to your assertion that they can’t do that: We’ll see. My guess is that Fat Tony and his smaller (intellectually) sidekicks will try to make this kid’s birth certificate into a gay exception to FFC and equal protection, rather than gutting both…but hey, maybe the under-appreciated 10th amendment will get some play.
S. cerevisiae
@Bob In Pacifica: Actually one of the best possible results in the Supreme Court would be having the individual mandate struck down because it forced you to buy from a private company. The insurance companies would scream bloody murder and the logical answer to this would be a public option (and maybe eventual single payer).
Fang
It’s possible, but it’s a gamble, and one that could backfire spectacularly.
If you’re trying to be a rational pundit and pick up your wingnut welfare, aligning with the birthers tars you with their brush. That means you end up with what is basically an ignorant, racist group of people you’re defending. Unless you’ve already embraced the insanity, you know well it can come back to haunt you.
Secondly, there’s a chance birtherism won’t work. THe legal challenges, the humiliation of states passing these insane laws, the fact that the documentation is THERE, the potential lawsuits . . . there’s a nightmare if you jump on the birther wagon.
Third, it looks bad. Yes birtherism sells among 50% of Republicans. But the rest of the country? It’s playing to a gamble of permanently tarring yourself with an insane 25% of the population.
So I see people flirting with it, but not going all the way. Going all the way requires commitment to the cause and to the crazy, and the inevitable downward spiral that follows.
Now I expect a lot of Trumplikes and media types to embrace it. It’s a guaranteed audience.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
Not if the mainstream wants Bill Cosby, Oprah Winfrey, and the rest of the African-American community to return their calls.
That Other Mike
@PhoenixRising: Except that’s not right; the case in question revolves around jurisdictional issues. The ruling states that the plaintiffs case is better heard by a State court because the lower Federal courts don’t have jurisdiction to decide FFC issues.
Frankly, it sounds like a crock of shit to me, but it certainly isn’t any kind of
repudiationrefudiation of the FFC.joel hanes
@Bob In Pacifica:
How would you feel about the Congress passing a refundable tax credit to those who choose to purchase health insurance that meets certain standards?
That’s pretty much how the Obamacare bill works.
You don’t have to buy the insurance, but if you choose not to do so, you have to pay the Feds some extra money.
Brachiator
@aimai:
The sad thing is that anything that certain white people do can be forgiven or excused, especially if they are conservative or ask forgiveness from the baby Jeebus. So, Palin’s daughter is a model for abstinence … somehow.
On the other hand, even a whiff of similar behavior in someone who is not 100 percent Real American(tm) is evidence of degeneracy.
les
@Stefan:
The Kenyan Marxist anti-colonialist Islamic jihadists financed the whole thing. Pay Attention!
PhoenixRising
@That Other Mike: Right, the court rejected FFC arguments, but their rationalization for doing so is IMHO irrelevant. It’s not much of a fig leaf, in that even the 10th CA didn’t think it covered them under virtually identical facts. Would their argument not apply to anyone with standing to litigate AZ’s additional specifications for its ballot? And why not?
Villago Delenda Est
@Bobby Thomson:
Don’t argue with me, Bobby. Argue with the idiots in Arizona, who are desperately trying to redefine “natural born” to mean only white protestant fundamentalist Christian.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bobby Thomson:
Don’t argue with me, Bobby. Argue with the idiots in Arizona, who are desperately trying to redefine “natural born” to mean only white protestant fundamentalist Christian.
Ija
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
Yup, that’s my understanding as well. Some of them are also big on the whole “if you take the baby away from the mother even for a minute right after birth (which might happen in a hospital, since the baby probably needs to be checked out to make sure he/she is healthy and all), the mother and baby cannot bond and will be doomed to a lifetime of horrible relationship, potential abuse, etc etc. My aunt is one of these loonies, it’s scary to think that she has 3 children. Left-wing loonies can be just as scary as right-wing loonies.
kwud
@Yutsano: As a card-carrying member of the Sorosite open source conspiracy, I take full credit for inserting “Obama” into the Firefox dictionary…by upstreaming a patch from Firefox’s Kenyan version.
I also upstreamed “Palin” from the Qawiaraq version.
Joseph Nobles
@West of the Cascades: “Arizona’s proposal really is ridiculously unconstitutional.”
YES! That’s what I want to see. Scalia standing up and doing the Mel Brooks one-liner: “We the Supreme Court find this law incredibly unconstitutional.” That would rock six different ways.
DriveBy
So has anyone produced an Obama birth certificate from Indonesia or Kenya? That could throw the birthers into a tizzy that would be fun to watch…
Best reason not to join the tea party – TeaParty Poster Girl
Redwood Rhiadra
@DriveBy: Yes, there are several fake Kenyan birth certificates on the net. Easily provable fakes due to simple historical errors (like using the wrong name for the country of Kenya in 1961!). The birthers insist that these are real, and Orly Taitz tried to have one introduced into evidence in one of her myriad lawsuits. (I believe it was eventually shown to be a photoshop of an Australian certificate)
No need to give these guys any more encouragement.