Digby has a long post up on how Obama is allegedly embracing the Bowles-Simpson plan, then at the end, throws up this:
Update: On the other hand, maybe it isn’t Simpson Bowles after all.
Sean Paul Kelley at the Agonist writes the following after an anonymous DC Insider tells him he will support the Catfood Commission:
Obama has lost my vote as well. I will not, I repeat, will not vote for him in 2012. Moreover I will actively work against him.
Can we please just cut the crap? Seriously? I will never, ever understand the need to pre-emptively go emo. If Obama proposes something bad, there will be ample time to flame it and push back.
But the need to rush out and be the first to publicly /wrist? What does this serve? What purpose? How does running around demoralizing your self and your readers serve progressive goals? What is the point of all this?
BTW- my favorite all time World of Warcraft mod was called “Emo,” and all it did when installed was every time you died, it played the chorus from Simple Plan’s “How Could This Happen to Me?”
That is what being a Democrat is like.
Dave
The GOS is already printing their “Kucinich 2012” banners because of this.
Uloborus
I wish to repeat the link ABL provided for where the cuts in the budget came from. Obama rolled the Tea Party. He ROLLED them. This is the most hilarious god damn article I’ve ever read. Yeah, he’s sooooo eager to cut the social safety net that he talked the GOP into cutting 36 billion dollars… in accounting errors.
Corner Stone
I agree. We should probably give it all a little time.
Then, in Obama’s second term he’ll have nothing to lose and can really drive the debate!
Athenae
Quite honestly? It allows you to position yourself as being the ONE TRUE VOICE OF THE ONE TRUTH and BRAVELY HOLDING OBAMA’S FEET TO THE FIRE WHERE THESE OTHER PUSSIES WON’T and other stuff that allows you to differentiate yourself from, you know, people who want to wait and see, of which there are many.
And I’d vote for Kucinich in a cold minute.
A.
Chyron HR
This is even worse than that time Obama announced sweeping cuts to Social Security in his 2011 SOTU address.
Chris G
People who are pissed about the deals Obama has to make with Speaker Boehner should be working to elect a Democratic majority in the House and preserve the Democratic majority in the Senate.
Nylund
I understand the need and/or desire to punish your elected officials when they don’t follow through on what you’d like them to do, but seriously…to actively work to make a Bachmann/Huckabee/Trump presidency more likely? What the heck does that accomplish? Sure, maybe Democrats are aware that the alternative is so horrifying that they know they can jerk the base around, but guess what? They’re probably right. The alternative IS too horrifying. I’ll take a truly terrible Obama over the GOP any day. I’ll be grumpy and peeved, but he’ll still get my vote and I’ll still do whatever I can to prevent us from having to watch President Palin/Bachmann/Trump ruin this country.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Because going post-emptively emo works even less well.
As the old saying goes: it’s too late to lock the barn door after the horses are gone. The left-leaning activist base is well trained based on long experience with the Dem leadership.
joes527
Bullshit.
That isn’t how our politics work.
The period of “don’t get all worked up, it is just rumour/theatre/11 dimensional chess”overlaps the beginning of “you should have spoken up earlier when it wasn’t a done deal” by several weeks/months.
If this rumour is true, by the time it is shown to be true there will be all sorts of reasons why the time for debate has past.
Because that’s how we roll.
joe from Lowell
These people – exactly the same people – already got punked once this year assuring us that Obama was going to propose cutting Social Security. And then he didn’t.
Just like they assured us that DADT repeal wouldn’t pass. There’s a guy who wrote an DKos diary titled “DADT Repeal is Dead,” one in a long series on that theme, who still gets everything he writes on the politics of gay rights immediately recommended.
They’re like the Iraq War Pundits of the left: sure, they’re constantly wrong, but they’re right to be wrong, because they’re wrong for the (ideologically) right reasons. As opposed to those who have been right about these things all along, who have been right for the wrong reasons. So, these Very Serious Voices continue to be respected, just like all of the Iraq War supporters who are still on cable news every week.
Rob
You should wait until the decision is irrevocably made and then complain? Otherwise you’re “emo” and suitable for mocking?? Good lord.
lawguy
Two points: proactively go emo? And no now is the time to push back and if possible prevent the president coming out in favor of something that he will not be able to back off once he says it.
Just Some Fuckhead
Sorry, John. You got us once with the healthcare debate, it won’t happen again. When it was clear the public option was deepsixed, we were told it was because we didn’t speak up earlier.
Dave
@Uloborus: But acknowledging that doesn’t allow for lots of poutrage and declaring the President to be a Republican tool. Much less fun to actually, you know, read the damn thing.
There is very little right now separating the idiots declaring Ryan’s budget to be “serious” without reading it and the idiots saying Obama got rolled / is going to sell out social programs without reading what actually got cut / waiting for the speech.
Uloborus
@joe from Lowell:
You would have thought he’d put those cuts, you know… in the budget? I mean, this WAS his chance to cut Social Security. If he wanted to do it, he’d have done it now.
joe from Lowell
The most important thing to Protest People is their self-image as Protest People. If they’re the first to denounce something, that gets them mega-points on the Protest People scale. If they’re wrong, whatever loss of credibility they gain in terms of being reality-based is outweighed by the demonstration of what awesome Protest People they are. Heck, it actually helps their credibility among their intended, Protest People audience to be so wrong, because it’s just more evidence of how ideologically hard core they are.
Silver Owl
I have no problem with people deciding that they want a candidate that better fit their goals and what they expect them to be.
Booting republicans out of the Senate and House is my goal. As of yet I haven’t decided if Obama will get my vote or not, depends on what other choices I have. The only thing I do know is I will not vote for any republican.
Uloborus
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Actually, you were told it was because it was never going to happen, period. You were also told it was a tiny thing that wouldn’t have made much difference. Oh, and then within the last week Ezra Klein listed a buttload of cost controls that stick it hard to insurances companies, because he wanted to compare the ACA to Ryan’s non-plan.
‘Public option’ my ass.
I now go back to laughing hysterically about 36 billion dollars in cutting accounting errors. My favorite is the 1 billion investment in high speed rail added that he convinced the Republicans to count as a 1.5 billion cut.
MattF
The basic rule to keep in mind is that elections are generally decided by people who can’t make up their minds. In so far as the lefty anti-Obama crowd has made up their minds, they’re irrelevant at best. At worst, they drive the political agenda to the right.
wasabi gasp
This post needs a Everyone chill the fuck out. I got this! lolcat.
Martin
@lawguy: Uh huh. Should we pre-emptively come out and prevent him from saying this as well:
Apparently we are all Joe Beese.
Gozer
@Dave: What’s (not so) funny about that tendency is the flaws of all the supposed pony-bringers. Kucinich and his exploitation of race in the 1970s, etc.
Shit, even Bernie Sanders has some issues that would collapse their support for him. His stance on gun control for instance.
……
Something looks wrong with my sentence structure…
Trying to type on 1 hr sleep is not recommended.
Elia Isquire
It’s a fair point. I think the motivation stems from defensiveness. We’ve just been hurt too many times, John. :'(
One other thing I think would help libs is if they stopped whining about being the base or w/e and just came to terms with the fact that they’re not democrats but they like the democrats far more than the other option.
It’s sort of like going into a movie and not expecting to like it, but, if it has enough scenes you do like, you’re pleasantly surprised and you take it for what it is.
Avoids the incoherence, too, of trying to argue that the Professional Left somehow is the Democratic party when it’s not and never really has been.
EDIT: Also, too, if the only changes he’s going to propose for social security are to have the wealthy pay more into it that will be so fucking awesome and I will totally admit that they played the media on that brilliantly. They’ve been throwing up test balloons all week about “changes to ss” without any substance; with our media environment everyone (myself included) figured that meant cuts (optimistically minor in nature) rather than…y’know…actually strengthening the program.
EDIT 2 (sorry): I still don’t get, though, why people don’t see progressive emoness as a general positive. It gives the Preznit room to maneuver and is generally part of what this whole democracy thing’s about…It’s not like Digby being chicken little actually impacts Obama’s fundraising or turnout.
Master of Karate and Friendship
Right, it’s blogs that are demoralizing people, not the Democratic party. I was just fine with that helicopter mowing down innocent people in Afghanistan until a blog told me it was bad.
joe from Lowell
@Rob:
You should wait until there’s some plausible evidence that the proposal you fear is actually going to be made.
Otherwise, if you’re wrong, you’re driving down support for the non-Republicans over nothing.
Again.
If you’re still in the stage of being concerned that a proposal might be made, argue the policy.
Martin
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Blogified.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Chris G:
“People who are pissed about the deals Obama has to make with Speaker Boehner should be working to elect a Democratic majority in the House and preserve the Democratic majority in the Senate.”
Right, because look at all the good stuff we got the last time the Democratic party controlled both houses.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Talk about Emo. Shorter John: Stop making us feel bad!
aimai
I don’t understand how Democrats and Democratic voters can be lectured on time and again by their betters about how they “failed” Obama by not getting out to vote at a lackluster Midterm and also hectored over how they overreact by paying too much attention to the nitty gritty of politics. I don’t know about your world but I am inundated by calls from Obama and his campaigns, and my Senators, and my congressmen, and every interest group I belong to to “make my voice heard” and to “stand with me when I X, Y, or Z.”
Five months and tons of insider negotiating later it turns out that X, Y, or Z wasn’t really that big a deal and it got traded for something else. Sometimes I agree that the trade was a good one, sometimes I don’t. But the appeals roll right back in for me to donate money, time, energy. Its just that the money, time and energy are very seldom spent on the targeted goals I have.
When you’ve been fucked over by the Dems as long as a regular dem voter has you won’t be so sanguine that you can always trust your leaders to do the right thing. I’m sorry that Obama gets the fall out from years of inept, quisling, Dem leadership and I am definitely willing to cut him some serious slack after he (apparently) punked Boehner during the last negotiations. I’ve learned to hang back on my judgement. But not too far. Because five minutes from now, as others have pointed out, we’ll all be lectured about how we should have spoken up and worked harder if we’d really wanted X, Y, and Z.
aimai
Dave
Party of Eeyore. You should keep that, John, that’s good.
joe from Lowell
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I think you’re lying. I don’t think you were ever told that.
I think you’re making up a backstory to justify behavior that you’re just plain emotionally hard-wired to engage in.
Max B.
congrats on winning the blogosphere, john. this is peak awesome.
John Cole
There were never 60 votes for the public option. Hell, there were never 50 votes for the public option. We went through the vote count a hundred fucking times, and never got closer than 45, if I remember. And that is assuming all of the ones we thought would vote for it would remain solid.
The public option was not deepsixed. The public option was never in the works, because the number of moderates and bluedogs in the Senate made sure it would never happen.
Jesus christ, I can not believe we are relitigating this, and you still are holding on to the same fantasy. And right about now, as evidence, you will link to Joe fucking Lieberman claiming Obama never pressured him on the public option.
Even worse, you’ll be doing so seriously.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@MattF:
“In so far as the lefty anti-Obama crowd has made up their minds, they’re irrelevant at best. At worst, they drive the political agenda to the right.”
Hilarious. Absolutely hilarious.
“The leftists are pushing the country to the right!” So how do we move the country leftward–centrism? How has that worked for the past 30 years?
Those leftists. They’re so irrelevant and powerless–and they’re ruining the country! ! !
Observer
When a Republican president sets up a semi-secret task force or commission, it’s because they’re strategizing on how to get Democrats to bend to their will and advance some deeply held Republican goal. They’re even willing to accept a defeat on the floor of congress and keep pushing until they win.
When Obama sets up a semi-secret task force or commission, it’s also because they’re strategizing on how to get Democrats to bend to their will and advance some deeply held Republican goal.
Some people are going to notice.
Dave
@Gozer: Is that the same Bernie Sanders that voted to deny funding to close Gitmo? But he is a Progressive Hero!!
aimai
@aimai:
I should add that I, of course, voted Democratic at the midterms. There is some very serious confusion about who didn’t show up to vote at the midterms–it wasn’t the most vocally angry critics of Obama and the Dems. Those people, generally speaking, always vote and since it was a local election they probably turned out and voted the straight dem ticket. It was people who were told “don’t worry/no problem/I got this”–new voters, young voters, personality voters who weren’t turned on or tuned in to their local elections and the midterm cycle. That is something that could be cured by more investment in exciting new and fragile voters. However you choose to do it. I’m not advocating for more progressive politics or more showmanship when it comes to such voters–perhaps they are moved by clever policies and nice scalpel like cuts. I don’t know. Whatever they are moved by they weren’t moved last time and thus we have the tea party. That has nothing to do with John Aravois’s anger over DADT or any Kossack’s disappointment over something. Those people, generally speaking, vote.
Uloborus
@aimai:
I’ll give you this. The Bush Presidency is enough to make anybody feel fatalistic about Democratic leadership.
EDIT – @aimai:
On this I disagree. Why didn’t they turn out to vote? Well, voting patterns sure as Hell predicted it, but the only other influence I can see is that the people they were listening to to represent their side were making up lies to describe every victory as a failure. THAT is the danger of the liberal defeatists. They spread misinformation that becomes conventional liberal wisdom.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
…funny stuff, from someone who just spent two days freaking out about the horrible damage done by cutting money from the budget the Democrats passed when they controlled the House.
Take some time, pick a story, and stick with it.
BGinCHI
POTUS must be here today, or something is going on.
3 big Chinooks just flew over the house, low and loud, which usually means someone is in town.
Those things are impressive.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Just Some Fuckhead:
“Talk about Emo. Shorter John: Stop making us feel bad!”
Oh, I do declare, I just can’t stand all this political negativity! [presses the back of his hand against his forehead] Why must people get so mad at the president? I just don’t know if I have the strength to endure much more of this!
Thank goodness John isn’t unemployed, broke, and suffering from chronic illness that his crappy insurance won’t cover. He wouldn’t last a damn day.
RSR
@Uloborus:
It’s still a $1.5B cut from last year. Are you agreeing that we should be spending 60% less on high speed rail?
If I ask my wife for just a kiss, I’m probably not going to get laid either.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
That makes no sense.
Suck It Up!
@Rob:
Obama hates his “base” anyway so he’s not going to listen to what anyone on the left says, right? this is what I’ve been told since he took office. ‘Obama loves to hippie-punch’, ‘he’s a secret Republican’, ‘he doesn’t care what we think’, ‘he’s already bought by corporations’. So if all that’s true why exactly do you think Obama is going to listen to any complaints from the left?
No one is telling you to sit down and wait until its too late but it would be nice if everyone stop speculating and getting pissed over something Obama hasn’t said yet.
Butler
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Do I really have to list everything (again) that did get passed, or can we just skip that part?
By staying engaged and working in the world as it exists. Every leftist who writes off or works against Democrats makes them lurch rightward in search of a replacement vote. It pretty fucking simple, actually.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Argue policy, not personality.
You remember policy, right? It’s that part of politics that doesn’t revolve around deciding who you you think is good enough to sit at your table in the cafeteria.
steve
As I recall, back in 2008 the much-revered Digby was front and center in the “Obama is blowing the election” crowd, and repeatedly mocked people who were optimistic about an Obama victory.
And let’s not forget all of the emo folks who denounced President-Elect Obama and vowed a primary challenge simply because of that guy who gave the invocation at the inauguration.
Villago Delenda Est
If the Obama administration bothered to message better, they wouldn’t have these problems.
Just sayin’.
Tom Q
There’s a fundamental issue I have with “we must speak up now or it’ll be too late” posters here. They all appear to be assuming (as they have in the past) a worst-case scenario — Obama suddenly advocating something totally at odds with what he’s spoken of over and over. And they do this with no evidence — it’s all based on an “I know he wants to screw me” paranoia, with maybe an unattributed story in the Wall Street Journal or Politico as back-up.
As Joe from Lowell points out, these people have believed previous unfounded reports, on DADT or “he’s going to advocate slashing Social Security in SOTU”, and the fact that these fears turned out unfounded hasn’t chastened them one bit. They still seem not only ready but eager to buy into the latest “he’s betraying us” rumor. It’s almost pathological.
Uloborus
@aimai: @RSR:
If it’s an investment that traditionally did not exist and he only added it ever for stimulus purposes and nobody expected it to continue? Hell, yes, I agree with that.
You just got a kiss from your EX-wife. The hot one who said she’d never speak to you again.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
“The most important thing to Protest People is their self-image as Protest People. If they’re the first to denounce something, that gets them mega-points on the Protest People scale.”
That’s why people get antsy about stuff like cuts to Social Security.
Not because their disable mother depends on Social Security to stay out of the flophouse. Oh no, not that.
cleek
@aimai:
maybe i don’t pay attention to the right voices, but…. who does this ?
—
on a more general note: anyone who thinks withholding his/her vote from Obama will accomplish anything but putting a Republican one vote closer to the White House has absolutely no idea how our country works. nobody gives a flying fuck about your “protest” vote. nobody. not even your mom. either vote for the Dem, or accept that you’re helping to elect a Republican.
rickstersherpa
Well, John that is why the Donkey is our symbol.
My fellow liberals, democratic socialists, and political radicals constantly make several mistakes. One, we fail to count votes in general and realize that we are a minority within the party and for a variety of reasons (the authoritarian and nationalist attraction of the rigth, racial resentments, etc), there are more Conservatives than liberals. So we liberals need to keep the Independents and Moderates on board. From Matt Ygleisas
“The Base
Barack Obama continues to deliver results that his electoral base likes:
A CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Monday indicates that the budget agreement that prevented a government shutdown is popular, with Americans supporting it by a 58 to 38 percent margin. But there’s a partisan divide, with two-thirds of Democrats and a majority of independent voters backing the deal, and Republicans divided.
It’s important for people to be clear on the asymmetries of American politics. Strongly identified conservatives are the base of the Republican Party, in a way that strongly identified progressives just aren’t the base of the Democratic Party. My guess is that just about anything Barack Obama does will be met with approval by most Democrats. Naturally that ends up skewing the landscape in terms of outcomes.”
Of course, that begs the question about why there are not more of us liberals. Bob Somerby does it better than me, ut I will suggest a few.
First, we tend to glory in our own smartness, coolness, special intelligence, and just overall moral goodness as opposed to the average, American Yahoo. Especially since we usually are telling someone else that their job, property, or recreational activity has to go for the greater good. This tradition actually goes back to the militant abolitionists. But it tends to be off-putting to our Yahoo neighbors.
Second, although it is sometimes well deserved, the frequent religion bashing that I see on this blog and others is really not to the thing to do in order to win the hearts and affections of our Yahoo neighors when a good 80% of the American people, including minorities, are some kind of believers. Some of the fights in this area always remind me a bit of poking a bear in the eye and then becoming outrage when the bear responds with a smack of his claw. For instance, it seems to me in some way that atheism and scepticism were gaining far more ground when school prayer was allowed in the class room. Mark Twain, Paul Fussell, Ambrose Bierce, Edith Wharton, and H.L. Mencken all seem to have survived the indoctrination quite well.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
“I can’t understand what you’re saying. You must be really dumb!”
Let me try again, then: you can’t spend two days cutting yourself over the agony of how much worse the budget is when Republicans get to write it compared to the budget the Democrats wrote, and then turn around and complain that what the Democrats did when they controlled Congress is no better than the Republicans.
Well, you can, if you’re really determined, but you’re going to look awfully silly and hypocritical.
Joel
The emo left marches on!
Master of Karate and Friendship
@cleek:
Gosh Cleek, I’d sure hate to have a Republican in the White House. Then we’d have increases to the Pentagon budget but decreases in programs that help the poor, Wall Street directing economic policy, escalated war, eroding civil liberties, increased oil drilling, and the Heritage Foundation’s health care reform plan enacted instead of Medicare for everyone.
Wow, I just can’t imagine what that would be like.
Suck It Up!
I can’t believe people have to be told to wait for facts before they give their opinion. Its that fucking simple. Do some of you act like this in your personal lives?
misterbones
Hey, at least Sean-Paul’s garbage is, presumably, original. It’s a mystery to me why progressives continued to legitimize the guy after he got caught plagiarizing.
Kelley is a fucking hack: no more, no less.
RSR
If you ask your boss for sixty pecent less pay, and he agrees, did you just take a pay cut?
PS. Happily married one time.
srv
Obviously, you’ve never actually been under a bus John. I, for one, appreciate the extra notice so I can make a lunch and a nice sign, blow up the thermarest, wash my emopants, and find a nice flat part in the street to lay down on.
Tuttle
Argue policy, not personality.
HA! The left easily dominates substantive policy discussions. That’s why we don’t have them any more.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
Okay, I see.
Here’s the thing: no matter how weak the Democrats’ budget was, this is not the time for cuts to it because our economy needs all the spending it can get.
Zifnab
@aimai:
This. Block walk for weeks on end. Donate a few hundred dollars. Round up all your friends and herd them to the polls. Defend your Congressional Reps and Presidential pick against wave after wave of “How’s that Hopey Changey thing workin’ out for you?” and “JUST LIKE BUSH!”
Then turn around and watch your President zig ever rightward, while policy remains mired in corporate-friendly, warmongering, rich-guys-first bullshit. It really takes the wind out of your sails.
When Democrats lose a vote because we don’t have the numbers, we can start lining up Congressional seats to flip and rolling up the next policy we want to pass. When Democrats lose a vote because leadership traded our pet policy goals away, suddenly we’re fighting our OWN PARTY over goals we thought they shared. It hurts a lot more, and makes us all feel that much more helpless.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
No, this is why people get antsy about imaginary cuts to Social Security, that don’t actually exist.
You know, like before the SOTU. And now.
artem1s
@Athenae:
Dennis is going to have a hard enough time getting re-elected to the House what with NE Ohio losing another seat. While he has a solid base of voters in his district, they were pretty pissed at him last time around for spending so much time out of the district to run for Preznit. Don’t expect him to do it again. I personally think he is pushing their limits with his latest niggling over Libya, but it is probably bringing him donations from outside the district that he will need for 2012.
Suck It Up!
“How Could This Happen To Me?”
I actually picture high pitched screaming, mascara rolling down the face while he/she rips their skin off.
cleek
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
yeah, Obama is the worst. the worst ever, probably.
now tell us how the President Bachmann will be better. tell us how she’d refuse to pass Ryan’s budget. and explain why she’d refuse to accept the kind of budget the GOP just put up. tell us what she’d refuse to go along with ? maybe she’d refuse to de-fund Planned Parenthood, CPB ?
Failure, Inc.
Where’s Beese? He’s supposed to be lecturing us about how Obama is the next Hitler, or Hitler was the first Obama, I can’t keep it straight anymore.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Zifnab:
Well said.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@cleek:
“yeah, Obama is the worst. the worst ever, probably.”
@Failure, Inc.:
“Where’s Beese? He’s supposed to be lecturing us about how Obama is the next Hitler, or Hitler was the first Obama”
It’s straw-man time! Get out those old clothes and start stuffin’.
joe from Lowell
@Suck It Up!:
And here’s the thing – they aren’t even being told to wait for the facts before they give their opinion about cutting Social Security. Go on, lefties, get out there! Shape the debate! Take on people who are actually talking about cutting Social Security – there are plenty of them.
But apparently, that isn’t good enough. Talking about lifespan changes and poverty and boooooooooring stuff like that just doesn’t have that kick of assumed superiority that one gets from denouncing the President.
JGabriel
@RSR:
Maybe you need a better mouthwash. Also, make sure you floss between the back teeth — that’s where bacteria can really rancid and halitotic. Or so I hear.
Edited to add: Sorry. I just couldn’t resist the setup line. It’s not often you get a hanging pitch like that.
.
Failure, Inc.
@Suck It Up!: It’s all too obvious which ones do.
It’s a tribute to the self-control of humanity that none of their acquaintances or co-workers have punched them in the neck.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
“No, this is why people get antsy about imaginary cuts to Social Security, that don’t actually exist. You know, like before the SOTU. And now.”
You seem to like waiting for problems to appear before thinking about what to do for them. Hey, if that’s your bag, keep carrying it.
taylormattd
The answer, John, is simple. The reason these people behave this way is simply because they all, for a variety of different reasons, have always hated Obama.
This has nothing to do with democrats being emo. This has to do with what is now a four year trend of preemptively viewing everything, including every anonymous leaks from former friends of congressional staffers formerly close to anonymous administration officials, in the worst possible light. Once this occurs, it is added to the lexicon and becomes part of the lore of the professional left, even when the leak or the spin about the proposal turns put to be a lie.
It is no different than those wingnuts who to this day repeat zombie lies about Bill Clinton.
Like I said, they all have different reasons. Digby has now been filtering Obama through the Hillaryis44 lens for 4 years now.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Looks like the Obots are going full metal emo. Cue Stuck’s pirouette and faint routine in 3..
Dave
@RSR:
If you didn’t tell your wife she was a lousy lay before you even got to the bedroom, maybe you’d get more than a kiss.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Great. Say that.
Stop pretending that any movement to the right on the budget when Congress goes from strongly Democratic to half Republican demonstrates the perfidy of Barack Obama and the Democrats in Congress.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
Tell me all about “the kick you get from feeling superior.”
“Look at me, I stand with the president, unlike those angry leftists!”
Martin
@John Cole:
The public option died in Nebraska, Iowa, Connecticut, places like that. Even Democratic senators take care of the voters that sent them there and when 7% of the jobs in Nebraska are *directly* employed by insurance, and some additional percents indirectly supported by insurance, a proposal like the public option is an incredibly bitter pill to take home.
kdaug
Nobody understands emo pony
cleek
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
not much of a strawman, since you did, in fact, say that outcomes under Obama are no different than what we should expect from a Republican. so, please, explain to us why an actual Republican would do the kind of things Obama did. why would President Bachmann refuse to de-fund PP or the CPB ?
Quiddity
I agree with John that we shouldn’t make any declarations of doom prior to hearing what’s going to be proposed by Obama. On the other hand, if it is shitty, then he should be called out on it.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
“Stop pretending that any movement to the right on the budget when Congress goes from strongly Democratic to half Republican demonstrates the perfidy of Barack Obama and the Democrats in Congress.”
Item: Obama agrees to more cuts than Republicans asked for.
Those darn Republicans! It’s all their fault!
singfoom
So, I gotta ask, because I want to get this straight:
I am disappointed in many of the outcomes of policy debates under this administration. I understand the real problem is in the Senate and in the House. Is it ok if I say that I will vote for Obama in 2012 because the alternative is The Humongous (or other Mad Max style Republicans) but I do it while holding my nose knowing that my policy priorities have not only not been addressed but actively worked against?
Or does that make me a firebagger? Because if it does, it’s fucking stupid. It’s one thing to know what you can accomplish in pragmatic terms, but it’s something else to be demagogued because you disagree with policy positions.
We should speak up about what is important to us and what our policy preferences are, otherwise we won’t be heard….
FlipYrWhig
Liberal pundits professional and amateur alike really, REALLY get off on doom. It’s a no-downside rhetorical strategy. You get to show off how you’re not a patsy, you’re a cynic. You were critical _before_ it was cool, just like you were into that band, you know, the one people like now, before they sold out and started to suck.
You get to issue dire warnings that go unheeded (“Things turned out badly! I was right!”). If things don’t go badly, you get to enjoy that (“Things turned out better than I expected, _this time_” or “Things turned out better than I expected, _because they listened to people like me_). Right or wrong, the important thing was, you were upset, and that’s a true, authentic feeling. Like when a school compass scratches a pentagram on the inside of your arm.
Suffern ACE
@Tom Q: Nope and all it does, if anyone is paying attention, is reinforce the idea that it is Obama and the Democratic Party who hate social security. Digby has been running with this for over a year. Didn’t matter that the dems closed the donut hole or voted to give seniors a COLA when the CPI didn’t warrant it. Nope their support for the programs for seniors is only superficial. From what I could tell, the only people talking about gutting social security in the last election were democratic supporters criticizing democratic politicians.
Suck It Up!
Also, too at this point Obama knows EXACTLY how everyone in the media will react to whatever he says. You guys are THAT predictable. I remember an interview he had with brian williams where in a response to “do you watch cable news” he said, ‘not really because you don’t learn anything new and everyone plays their role’. basically nothing but characters with a set script. no deviation, no surprises.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
You’re not much of a reader, are you?
Third time’s a charm, so here goes: NOBODY IS TELLING YOU NOT TO TALK ABOUT CUTS TO SOCIAL SECURITY! EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD THINKS IT WOULD BE AN AWESOME IDEA FOR YOU TO DO THAT!
Did you get it that time?
What part of “talk policy, not personality’ is eluding you here?
Master of Karate and Friendship
@cleek:
“so, please, explain to us why an actual Republican would do the kind of things Obama did.”
Why would a Republican president pass a health care reform plan first proposed by Republicans and enacted by a Republican? Gosh, I don’t know.
Why would a republican increase the defense budget while cutting taxes for the wealthy? You’re right, they’ve never done that before.
Why would a Republican radically increase offshore oil-drilling? Got me there.
Why would a Republican surge into a pointless and ruinous war? Hmm, that’s never happened before, has it.
“not much of a strawman”
YOU said people called Obama “the worst president ever.” But NO ONE is calling him that. That’s the dictionary definition of a straw man argument.
Just Some Fuckhead
@singfoom:
John will let you know when it’s acceptable to push for your desired outcome. Until then, best not to upset him.
TJ
I can wait until tomorrow myself. But if it is Erskine-Bowles, then Obama’s on his own as far as I’m concerned.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
There’s a story, about a boy who cried Wolf.
You might want to look to that tale.
Elia Isquire
@singfoom: This is what I was trying to say earlier, but said betterer.
It’s weird how this dynamic plays out across the internet no matter what the issue — politics, music, types of dogs, cereal brands, whatever — rather quickly it gets broken into this intense, rigid dichotomy of warring straw men and tribalism.
That’s why I’m voting Lieberman-Bloomberg in 2012: we need a third way.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
OK, mine comes from pointing and laughing at you when your every prediction turns out wrong.
Like those Social Security cuts in the SOTU. Or the failure of DADT repeal.
That’s the difference between you and me. You get your kicks out of identifying yourself with a group; I get mine out of being factually correct.
Projecting onto me a mirror image of your own habits doesn’t actually mean I work that way. Barack Obama plays a much, much larger role in your identity than in mine.
Juicetard (FKA Liberty60)
@Chris G:
This.
I am as angry about the deals, and am with Greenwald on civil liberties, but lets get serious- who is your magical dream pony who will win the general election in 2012 while upholding single payer and the progressive agenda?
Keep in mind- at least 46% of American electorate in 2008 seriously, truly wanted to see Sarah Palin with her finger on the nuclear button.
Who is The One who can hold that 46% at bay, and hold on to the moderates, and win the Greens and assorted left voters?
Seriously- give me a name.
Other than that, STFU and work your ass off getting us back a Democratic majority.
PeakVT
I will never, ever understand the need to pre-emptively go emo.
1) People who live on pagehits have to compete for attention.
2) There’s a greater than 50% of being right.
Tim, Interrupted
Ummm, Cole, you go pre-emptively emo regularly on your front page posts.
I don’t get why your blog has to be a DEMOCRATIC blog? Why can’t it just be a John Cole blog? Why do you feel the need to BELONG and be part of a team, any team, some team? Why can’t you try to objectively observe and comment; there’s plenty of drama and food for emo in just that.
Grow up.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
haha! Joe, look at the posts you’ve written in this thread, then tell me how you have a leg to stand on to lecture people about “polcies, not personality.” Virtually everything you’ve written on this page is a psychological analysis of people you disagree with. And it’s all bulls**t, but that’s a different issue.
Yes, there are people who want to cut Social Security. Alan Simpson and Erskine Bowles, for instance. Now, considering they were appointed to make a deficit-reducing plan by the president, it’s worthwhile to be concerned that this plan might be enacted some day.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
See, here’s the thing: I have proven this talking point false on thread after thread after thread for the past two days, including threads you’ve read. And now, you’ve got even more evidence disproving your narrative.
You’ve never, not even once, put forward any evidence or even an argument why your discredited statement is true, but you just keep making it.
Because you don’t care if it’s true. It’s the story you like to tell yourself, the story that the Protest People have decided on, the story that confirms your own awesomeness to yourself, and you simply put greater emphasis on those things than on the truth.
kindness
There’s a big difference in things going on here.
1) Democratic agreement on the 2011 budget deal negotiated last Friday isn’t a liberal back stab (although I would have preferred Democrats fought for the right to let Washington DC pay for abortions with their own money).
2) If President Obama comes out tomorrow & says he will implement the Cat Food Commission’s recomendations, then actual liberals & progressives SHOULD support a more progressive candidate in the primaries.
Look, Simpson-Bowles is a DLC/Third Way pipe dream. It is an abomination as far as liberalism is concerned and I myself would support someone else in the primaries. Come Novemeber 2012, I would then again support the person who has the best chance of wining that comes closest to my views. See, nuance is alive and well.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Juicetard (FKA Liberty60):
“Keep in mind- at least 46% of American electorate in 2008 seriously, truly wanted to see Sarah Palin with her finger on the nuclear button.”
That will be of great concern the next time the 2008 election happens.
Look, you want to use the 2008 election as an object lesson? That’s a fine idea. Here it is: in 2008, a relatively unknown candidate won the presidency pretty handily by promising to stop military tribunals, tax cuts for the wealthy, stupid wars, drilling our way to energy independence, and government secrecy. So why shouldn’t another candidate who promises to do that have a puncher’s chance?
Linnaeus
Okay, if you think Digby’s read too much into the reports that have been coming out of White House sources, fine. But it’s pretty clear to me from reading the links that the messages have been mixed, and given how “shared sacrifice” and austerity have been the frameworks for policy as of late, I don’t think it’s wrong for anyone to wonder what the hell’s going on.
Of course, I’ll read the president’s speech when it comes out and if he moves in the direction of focusing on the revenue side of things, I’ll laud him for it. Because that’s what needs to be done.
bystander
Who was it? Danny?? A few threads back who made the observation that conservatives had been building their grassroots movement long before Reagan. I’m reasonably confident that not more than a few Republicans quietly, and not so quietly, attempted to discourage that activity with much the same language I’m reading here and there in Obama/Democrat/Liberal-leaning blogs and threads. Fortunately, for the conservatives, their grassroots didn’t listen to them, eh?
Somewhat in the same vein: DC For Obama Furious Over Budget Deal
singfoom
@Juicetard (FKA Liberty60): Yeah, I hear that. Again, the real problem is the Senate and the House. So fine, we work on getting bigger Democratic majorities in the Senate and an actual Democratic majority in the House.
Assuming that happens, what do we do when our policy preferences are still ignored, actively worked against, and we’re punched in the face politically to score points with the independents/moderates?
As a certified DFH, how should we as DFHs respond to the constant punching? I’m not behind primarying Obama or anything of that level stupid, but I don’t see much success in moving the Senate to the left.
Sure, we could get more Democratic Senators, but then they’ll just keep punching us in the face, politically.
There has to be answer as to how to deal with the large corporate agenda that gets taken as a given, while fucking the rest of us.
The problem is that it has to be solved by the very institution that is serving as an obstacle to any real change in the system.
And then, even if that said institution (Senate) enacts rules to make public financing or what have you, SCOTUS will probably get called upon, Thomas will ask no questions and by default the ruling goes to corporations.
This becomes a tiresome tune. What’s a DFH who doesn’t want to take their ball home to do?
Martin
@taylormattd:
Nah, they’ve always behaved like this. By and large they’re always disgruntled. They’re not just upset at Obama but all Democrats that they know anything about. Kucinich and Sanders are ideal because they only see the ideological stands that those two make and not the endless strings of failures to actually win any of those arguments – those failures are always blamed on someone else – Obama, Reid, Pelosi.
They simply have no concept of what’s possible in politics. They’re like little kids that demand to know why the water powered car on TV hasn’t been built yet. Because that would be awesome, and the only thing stopping us is that we aren’t trying hard enough. Why can’t Obama make the rousing speech of core liberal values that transforms the country. Why didn’t Obama just do what President Bartlett did on the West Wing – let the country shut down, then walk up Pennsylvania Avenue with camera’s rolling and shame the GOP into action on live TV. Where’s the principled stand on the ACLU like the guy from The American President made that won over the nation and secured his 2nd term, all in one move? Why doesn’t Obama just do that? It’s so simple!
Most would be just as unhappy with Hillary, or Sanders, or Kucinich had they become president. Some would become fans and hold tight, but generally both parties have this cohort of people that can’t reconcile why reality never matches the ideal that’s in their head. They always think that its realities fault. It’s never that their idea of what’s possible is so fucked up.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
To all of the people disagreeing because John said wait, please take a look at this quote again:
That is not complaining about how the president needs to do more to make sure that Social Security is not cut. That is throwing a tantrum because you are sure Santa isn’t going to get you that BB gun for Christmas. One contributes to the debate, the other one doesn’t.
Linnaeus
There’s not much choice, really. What will really make the difference, IMHO, is organizing independent organizations that can do the work that the party can’t or won’t do. Which takes a lot of time, labor, and money. The right did it, and so should we.
Joe Beese
Sorry, I’m late…
But what is there to say, really? Mister Cole wants us to wait and see if Obama will use the Ryan budget as an excuse to push the Catfood Commission that he, Obama, single-handedly summoned into being and stocked with well-known enemies of Social Security.
If he wants to save his disappointment for later, that’s his prerogative. But the rest of us are under no obligation to pretend that the dog arching its back isn’t about to take a steaming dump on the carpet.
taylormattd
@Chyron HR: Lol. Love that one. People at GOS still repeat it as if it actually happened.
cleek
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
yes, Obama has done some decidedly non-Left-approved things. i too am displeased.
now, how about defunding PP, CPB; ending DADT; trying to end Gitmo; nominating non-“conservative” judges; etc. ? tell us why an actual Republican would do those things.
or, are you only interested in issues where Obama has failed to live up to your standards, and don’t actually care about issues where he has done things no Republican ever would ? that’s the vibe i’m getting here, anyway.
actually, i didn’t.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Let me know when you and your lil buddies win, or run for, political office. There’s no downside to trashing you.
Interesting insight that this minor detail went over your head. It literally never occurred to you that I’ve been talking about political implications when I object to the consistently baseless preemptive denunciations of Obama. That there is a huge practical difference between making you look stupid and running down Barack Obama just didn’t enter into your thinking at all.
Funny, that’s what you told us before the SOTU. I responded by pointing out that Obama had dropped the Catfood Commission like a hot potato.
One of us was right. One of us was wrong. One of us keeps telling the same story, despite it having been proved wrong, because it’s what you want to believe.
James E. Powell
@Chris G:
If I recall correctly, this method was tried. I do not think most people were happy with the results. If they were, they did not show their happiness by re-electing the Democratic majority in the house, or preserving the Democratic majority in the senate.
I am neither a firebagger, nor any other kind of constant critic of Obama. I am, however, increasingly dissatisfied with the message that I am required to support Obama no matter what policy decisions he makes.
ruemara
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Who said that? It was because you didn’t have the votes. Hell, even candidate Obama said he would support one, but he didn’t think there was the votes for single payer. When Harry Reid said he would call for a vote on HCR with the weak public option from the House, the WH asked him if he really had the votes. He didn’t, it failed. It was never because you weren’t speaking up-at least by yelling at the President-it was because you didn’t affect the necessary group, Senators.
JAYZUS
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
In other words, no Republican ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of President Obama and his negotiating team.
.
.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
I have proven this talking point false on thread after thread after thread for the past two days, including threads you’ve read.”
You made an understandable mistake: you took Republican calls to cut X amount from the whole year, then took their call to cut 1/4X amount from 1/4 of a year, and called it less. But it wasn’t less, it was two different numbers.
The second link, from Yahoo news, does absolutely nothing to add to your case, just FYI.
Now, if only the president weren’t so craven that he praised the cutting of money from the budget at a time when we need to spend more, not less.
Here’s my evidence:
“If that happens, the measure would cut $37.8 billion from the federal budget through the end of September, congressional aides said. Democrats had wanted to cut billions less: they assented to the larger figure, and in return Republicans dropped a demand to take federal funds from the group Planned Parenthood, according to aides in both parties. ”
Link
“It’s the story you like to tell yourself, the story that the Protest People have decided on, the story that confirms your own awesomeness to yourself, and you simply put greater emphasis on those things than on the truth.”
Way to stick to “policy, not personality”. Now we see how seriously to take what you say.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Ah, yes, you all remember how the campaign was dominated by discussion of military tribunals, oil drilling, and government secrecy, right?
Master, you make things up because they fit your storyline, and you don’t care if they’re true. This, as I’ve explained, is why you’re so eager to chase around phantoms.
FlipYrWhig
@kindness:
My prediction: he’s going to talk about ways to put Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security on a “surer footing” or something like that.
Blog readers will find the phrasing suspicious. Some of them will already be upset.
Pundits, opining quickly after the speech itself, will say the plan has much in common with the Simpson-Bowles commission report.
At that point the blogs will erupt in rage about the “Catfood Commission.”
Will the pundits be correct? Well, silly, that’s beside the point. We won’t talk about the effect of the plan or the merits of that plan or the awfulness of the plan’s particulars, we will instead talk about how Obama stabbed his base in the back, and right to their faces!
Then polls will show that 60% of the public liked what Obama said in the speech.
wasabi gasp
@cleek:
Your fucking lunch. Eat it.
taylormattd
@Linnaeus: Did you perchance happen to notice that Digby semi-retracted her entire post with her update? And did you perchance read the link in her update? Where it says nearly the opposite of what people have been screaming about?
Here, let me block quote it for the mouth breathing pyschpaths like Joe Beese, who are too stupid to follow St. Digby’s link:
Joel
@Master of Karate and Friendship: something along the lines of the Bush presidency. Remember that one?
Linnaeus
@Martin:
Fair enough; I do understand that what you want and what you get in politics are very often different things. But what is possible isn’t fixed, either; it can be shifted as both the right and the left wings in this country have shown. So let’s understand what is possible, but at the same time not put too many boundaries on changing the possible.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@ruemara:
“even candidate Obama said he would support one, but he didn’t think there was the votes for single payer”
Maybe if he had lobbied Congress for it, there would have been enough votes. Like how he lobbied Congress to bail out Wall Street, for instance.
Whoops, I forgot the old Balloon Juice Quitter’s Motto: “It might not work, so why bother trying?”
@James E. Powell:
“I am, however, increasingly dissatisfied with the message that I am required to support Obama no matter what policy decisions he makes.”
That’s the smart decision. Why on Earth would someone support a politician no matter what he does? That’s like saying to an employee “I’ll pay you whether you come to work or not.” Gee, I wonder what would happen next?
Linnaeus
@taylormattd:
I did read that, which speaks to my point about mixed messaging. We’ve heard two conflicting accounts. And I did also say that I’m waiting to read what the president says tomorrow.
joe from Lowell
@singfoom:
Maybe you should stop constantly throwing punches.
El Tiburon
Jeez, talk about going Emo and being a WATB.
Who is it demoralizing? I get demoralized when nobody pushes back.
You just don’t seem to get it. If enough people push back as the bull leaves the chute, then it may be enough to get the bull and horns and all back in the chute. You dig?
What is up with all of this stinking passivity? Shhh, everyone, be vewy vewy quiet. I’m hunting wabbits.
IF IF IF IF Obama goes full-on Simpson Bowles, will that be enough for some of you? Or do we go all ABL and start rationalizing the shit of this?
Tractarian
I’m OK with people like Digby and Kelley voicing their displeasure with the President.
The fact is, while Obama may be left-of-center in American political terms, he has never been a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, and he certainly is farther to the right on the political spectrum than most liberal bloggers.
And when Digby and Kelley complain loudly about Obama, they are making that fact clear to the legions of moderate and independent voters out there.
Elia Isquire
@taylormattd: I mean, just to be fair, they have spent most of the past year or so dropping little hints that would imply unpleasant cuts to “entitlement” programs — but that doesn’t mean they weren’t doing so on purpose to bolster their “deficit hawk” cred and thus make raising taxes look like the Serious thing to do. So I don’t disagree with you but it’s not entirely accurate to discount that, factoring in this LA Times story, the messages have been somewhat mixed.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
“Ah, yes, you all remember how the campaign was dominated by discussion of military tribunals, oil drilling, and government secrecy, right?”
WHEN DID I SAY IT WAS DOMINATED BY THOSE THINGS?
“Master, you make things up because they fit your storyline, and you don’t care if they’re true. This, as I’ve explained, is why you’re so eager to chase around phantoms.”
Is this more of your “policy, not personality” ideal?
singfoom
@joe from Lowell: Response fail. Am I throwing punches?
I’m asking a question. You want to have a flame war with Karate guy, go ahead, but I’m actually asking a question.
El Tiburon
@joe from Lowell:
In other words, sit there and take it you chump-ass bitches. Sit down, shut the fuck up and let the adults take charge here you hippy-clown.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Tractarian:
“The fact is, while Obama may be left-of-center in American political terms”
Upon what do you base this? I’d truly like to know what you think.
joe from Lowell
@ruemara:
Nobody said that.
I pointed this out earlier to JSF. He had absolutely nothing to say to prove me wrong.
He will have absolutely nothing to say to answer you, either.
And yet, he will go on to make the same claim again, and again, and again.
Because it doesn’t matter if the line he’s pushing is true, only that it fits neatly into his narrative.
The firebaggers have left the reality-based community, and are trying to make their own reality.
Joel
Takes all kinds. However, if you’re going to be a petulant prick and announce to the world that you’re not going to vote, then I’m not going to bother convincing you otherwise. If you really cared, you might actually write some letters to your representative, or local newspapers, or whoever is outside your immediate vicinity and convince them of the merits of your values. Do the legwork, figure shit out.
But if you just want to be a fucking donkey, fine. Other people will take your place.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@El Tiburon:
I think Joe from Lowell thinks politicians punch hippies because the hippies started it. For instance:
“hey president Obama, you campaigned in favor of a public option, so we are willing to pressure lawmakers who oppose that and help you!”
“you guys are f**king retarded!”
See how the leftists got what they deserved, there?
Martin
@Linnaeus: Well, you have to be careful about the reading of these things. Americans love bargains. They want more services but they want to pay less for it. Cuts to SS or Medicare doesn’t have to mean less services. There’s only so much you can do there, but some can be done. Cutting SS by means testing benefits is a cut, but nobody on the left would be upset by them. ACA cuts Medicare spending, but doesn’t cut benefits. Allowing Medicare to negotiate for drug prices would be a spending cut, but not a benefit cut.
There’s probably not enough of those kinds of things to get those programs in the long-term black, but Obama is going to cheerlead the cuts. That’s what voters want to hear, and Dems should be taking credit for that. Better to take Democratic spending cuts than Republican cuts, who are far more interested in cutting services and far less interested in cutting actual spending.
The same message holds true on taxation. Better to have lower marginal rates and higher effective ones. If we can lower the top marginal rates and through elimination of deductions and loopholes for the rich collect more actual money, that’s a huge win – and again something that voters want to hear. Better that the Dems get the credit.
Joe Beese
@El Tiburon:
Of course not. No more than starting a new war or torturing a whistleblower has.
When they find themselves (temporarily) unable to defend the indefensible, they’ll just fall back on “The Republicans are worse!”
Tribal loyalty is a hell of a drug.
Dave
@Master of Karate and Friendship: Holy fuck. Get it through your head: THERE WAS NEVER ENOUGH VOTES FOR SINGLE PAYER. Too many Dem Senators said on and off the record it was a no-go. Jesus, quit being willfully ignorant.
Bruce S
Ezra Klein punched me in the gut with this Simpson-Bowles story this morning, and then I saw the LAT thing and realized that nobody really knows what Obama will say tomorrow and that it’s a fool’s errand to second-guess before the fact. Klein is usually better than this, but he seems invested in being “right” in his predictions. That said, the White House and the Dems have shown no particular reason why anyone who has their head screwed on should have tremendous confidence in their playing this game and have shown lots of reasons why one need rationally worry. But I’m not going to take the bait – and once I’ve heard what the Prez has to say, I’m going to take a deep breath and evaluate it carefully before I decide to “clap louder” or go all firedoglake. Even if it sounds better than I expect, I’ll need to take a long hard look – but a few of our friends seem to be putting their closely-held assumptions at the center of a story that hasn’t broken yet.
Uloborus
@Joe Beese:
Wow. Just… wow.
Did you fail to notice that THAT MOMENT JUST CAME AND PASSED AND IT DIDN’T HAPPEN?
The budget was just passed. Lo and behold, when he could have gotten overwhelming Republican support, he didn’t cut Social Security or enact anything from Simpson-Bowles.
By the way, ‘the ACA and finreg controls don’t matter because they’ll be defunded in the budget’? Another nihilist meme proven wrong.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Linnaeus:
“But what is possible isn’t fixed, either; it can be shifted as both the right and the left wings in this country have shown. ”
Thank you. Has anyone noticed how public support for unions has gone up since people took to the streets in Wisconsin and other states to make the unions’ case?
cleek
@wasabi gasp:
i’m about to. mmm Stouffers
El Tiburon
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Such much ass-suck in this quote. Tantrum? All in all I would say the left has been very moderated all things considered. And we are not talking about Santa Claus and bb guns and Christmas. We are talking about actual human beings and how they will suffer (including children) with a lot of these budget cuts that Obama is so proud of.
Some of you automatically think someone who has decided not to vote for Obama for valid reasons is some kind of loon.
Those of us who are waffling on this decision don’t think you Obamabots (for lack of a better term) are loons – you have your valid reasons as well.
Martin
@El Tiburon:
Yes, but Obama has already indicated he’s not going to do that. How many times does he need to say that before everyone stops screaming about catfood?
Mark Owen
For all the reflexive complaining you sound an awful lot like the long-term Dems you deride. Not that lots of folks don’t deserve such derision BUT at which point do self-deluded progressives find that they have been betrayed on every single issue?
Negotiating from a right of center position is proving to be quite lucrative for people who are not progressives. Continuing to vote for Democrats to avoid the morbid “alternative” is proving….. morbid.
ruemara
@Joe Beese: Let me help you out here with your own link. The “Catfood Commission” was created as a deal with the Senate to authorize a budget.
I told you I’d keep posting it if you kept lying about it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/19/AR2010011903310.html
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Nope. The Republicans were calling for $100 billion in cuts, to be made in a budget they they knew would only be for half the year. They ran on this position in the elections held in November (already four months into the FY) with the intent to implement it when they took power in January (we’re now six months into the fiscal year).
But nice try.
A story from April 9, that picks up in the middle of the action, ignoring the entirety of the Republicans’ movement over the preceding six months. Impressive!
I’ve already explained this to you, and having to repeat myself over and over again is getting boring.
El Tiburon
@Uloborus:
Not yet. Maybe never. Word on the street we’ll know more tomorrow night. Also, Obama has another year or so to give the store away. I mean, if he is so proud of billions in cuts during the Second Great Depression, then he might be prouder to do even more of it.
Especially if he knows so many of you will sit there and take it like a good little stooge.
Joe Beese
@Martin:
Ah yes, the scalpel rather than the machete. A fine metaphor.
Did you vote for Obama thinking he was going to “take a scalpel” to entitlements?
Be honest now.
El Tiburon
@Martin:
Ok, so you are seriously asking us to trust what a politician says? Really? Really? Really?
Do I really need to google all of the campaign promises Obama reneged on? Really?
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Dave:
Calm down. I’m not saying there were enough votes. I said “wouldn’t it be nice if Obama lobbied half as hard for the public option as he did for the bank bailouts?”
Note: please don’t counter by arguing that the bank bailouts were a good idea. That’s not the point right this minute.
Uloborus
@El Tiburon:
Did you read the article I linked to at the beginning of this debate?
Those budget cuts? They didn’t happen. They’re accounting tricks, counting things that were never intended to be renewed or weren’t used as if they were cuts from the main budget.
Obama just prevented an economically disastrous government shutdown by… giving the GOP an annoying law that only affects DC and another source said was already implemented by a previous law.
Joy
Try reading Susie Madrak and commenters over at C&L if you can stomach it. I’ve never seen such preemptive bellyaching since, um, the deal that passed Friday night. Give a rest people. Wait until you actually hear what he says.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Martin:
Obama said he won’t enact Simpson/Bowles? Whew, that’s a relief!
After all, look how ironclad his promise to have the most transparent presidency ever, to hold civilian trials for terrorist suspects, to fight for a public option, and to not extend tax cuts for the rich turned out.
Uloborus
@El Tiburon:
So you’re saying… you have no evidence that he’s going to cut Social Security, he’s given up his best chance, but you’re SURE he intends to and we’re fools for thinking he doesn’t intend to?
Joe Beese
@ruemara:
Wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_on_Fiscal_Responsibility_and_Reform#History
Marc
@Linnaeus:
She keeps on doing the same bullshit over and over and over without ever appearing to learn from it. At this point Digby, and Atrios, and the rest of the chicken little brigade have zero credibility. Remember the great Social Security sellout in the State of the Union address?
Oh, that’s right. It…didn’t happen. And instead of acknowledging that, they refer to heavily edited anonymous sources to claim that their fears were averted by…of course, their brave example deterring Evil Obama from his devious plans.
Now maybe there could be a problem. The problem with crying wolf is that no one believes you if your fear does come true, so the Digbys of the world are the last people you can pay attention to.
More to the point, if Obama has a problem it’s his extreme caution. Doing something substantive to SS would be risky, very unlike him. But he does say soothing words and doesn’t scream and talk about how evil the Republicans are…and that’s what the Professional Left feeds on and wants to hear. That’s the real issue, along with a fact that the loudest voices have always hated his guts.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
What are you, kidding me? I QUOTED YOU:
Is this some kind of a joke? You stated, in your own words, that Obama won the presidency by supporting those positions.
We can all still read your comment, you know. If you didn’t mean that, if you expressed yourself poorly, than say so.
As I’ve said, I’m no longer explaining obvious points to you over and over. I’ll will point out your gaping personality flaws all I want, and will do so without the slightest qualm about hypocrisy, for the reasons I’ve already explained.
BruceFromOhio
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Yes, of course! Which makes sabotaging your own electorate and insuring continued Republican majorities so full of win, I’m actually farting sparkles as I write this! President Haley Barbour, COME ON DOWN!
Dear Gaia, please save me from this fucked up madness. Kisses, BFO.
FlipYrWhig
@Martin: Picture a grandmother opening a can of cat food forever.
It will never not be said.
Georgia Pig
O needs the emo left as a dramatic foil, which nicely complements the numbnuts in the Republican House leadership. The latter have their jobs because of Roger Ailes’s ability to mobilize the scooter brigade, not because of their mad political skills. Keep up the good work.
ruemara
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Bully pulpit. Even then candidate Obama knew what the votes would look like and you’re saying that if he had just pressed harder, a collection of egomaniacs who were busy preen about how they would not vote in lockstep with their own party’s president would somehow have a come to jesus moment. This is even as negotiations were going on and phonecalls were made by the president, the vp, et al but that still isn’t enough for you because you don’t think that was enough because the outcome wasn’t what you wanted. Hey, sometimes you do work hard and you still don’t get what you’d like. Is that an occurrence that doesn’t happen in your world?
Lolis
@FlipYrWhig:
Haha. Yep, liberals are annoying.
Dave
@Master of Karate and Friendship: My answer would be that asking Obama to lobby hard for something he KNEW had zero change of passing is just kabuki theater. And using that as evidence of him not caring is just silly.
joe from Lowell
@singfoom:
You asked about DFHs, and I answered likewise.
Yes, the DFHs are throwing punches – but as El Tiberon explains, it’s ok when they do so. It’s only bad when anyone does it back to them.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Uloborus:
“Those budget cuts? They didn’t happen.”
There were both: there were accounting tricks and there were real, actual budget cuts. WIC was cut. Pell grants for summer school were eliminated. Planned Parenthood took a big cut. The EPA’s budget was cut. The FDA was trimmed and a green jobs program in the Dept. of Labor was axed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/12/us/politics/12congress.html?_r=1
joe from Lowell
@El Tiburon:
Sob. How can you do this to me?
Fucking hypocrite. It’s ok – nay, noble – for people to be aggressive in their politics and engage in personal attacks.
As long as they agree with El Tiburon. When anyone else does it, it’s a crime against humanity.
ruemara
@Joe Beese:
uh, no. You’re wrong.
Faced with growing alarm over the nation’s soaring debt, the White House and congressional Democrats tentatively agreed Tuesday to create an independent budget commission and to put its recommendations for fiscal solvency to a vote in Congress by the end of this year.
Under the agreement, President Obama would issue an executive order to create an 18-member panel that would be granted broad authority to propose changes in the tax code and in the massive federal entitlement programs — including Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security — that threaten to drive the nation’s debt to levels not seen since World War II.
And considering that Wikipedia can be “adjusted” by anyone with an account, I’d skip using that as my go to source. Just saying.
Marc
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Obama isn’t responsible for your paranoid delusions; his disagreement with you on issue A does not justify fantasies about issue B.
The good news about Social Security is that the reaction of people like you (and the usual suspects here) tells me a lot about the nature of the burning hatred that folks like you have towards Obama. This is a case where the entire case rests on reading everything that he does in the most conspiratorial and hostile manner possible; reading every tea leaf in the worst way; and ignoring any evidence against your thesis. In short, on this particular subject, it is pure projection. It has been repeatedly alleged, never shown to have any substance (like the birther business) and it never dies.
What it reveals is people whose reason flies out the window when it comes to Obama, and by extension people whom I therefore don’t need to bother to listen to on the subject. I can listen to people who are not-insane on Obama to find out when he’s actually done something problematic.
So keep on keepin’ on. It’s good to know who’s worth paying attention to.
FlipYrWhig
@Master of Karate and Friendship: Wouldn’t it be nice if Democratic Senators cared as much about helping sick people as they do about banking interests?
Elia Isquire
Josh Marshall has left TPM and signed on at FDL
Master of Karate and Friendship
@ruemara:
Please read what I actually wrote. If you want to talk about things that people have not written, then…well, I don’t know what to tell you.
For the third time, I think: the loss of a public option would be easier to swallow if the president who ran on it had at least lobbied for it. And that’s all I have to say about that.
Dave
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
1. Won an award for open government
2. Was kept from holding civilian trials in the US because Congress voted to deny funding for just about every single aspect of it. And voted to keep Gitmo open.
3. Already covered. Senate Dems killed that in the cradle.
4. Thanks to Congressional Democrats putting off the tax vote until after the 08 elections (one of the biggest political blunders in recent memory) the President had a time limit to get something done before the GOP took over the House. Extending the top-level cuts sucks, but it also kept more stimulus money in the pipe and extended unemployment. Again, a situation that could have been avoided if Pelosi and Reid didn’t kick that can down the road.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Everyone has noticed that.
The question is, has anyone noticed that, in doing so, they argued policy and values, attacked the people who have actually come out for positions they oppose, and haven’t said a single bad word about Obama or the Democrats?
Nice own-goal. You just demonstrated the utter irrelevance of the leftist anti-Obama drumbeat to the political goals and even the political strategy you claim to support.
FlipYrWhig
@Lolis: Liberals are wonderful. Emo liberals are annoying. Emo liberals who care more about “optics” and sectarian positioning and handwave away the fact that they are hugely outnumbered in American politics… _they_ are very annoying.
Uloborus
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
I just looked at that. Pell Grants: A NEW THING was not added. The other cuts amount to… about 60 million of the 36 billion. HMMMM.
If this is your evidence that the budget deal isn’t a masterpiece of screwing over the GOP when they held all the cards, it’s not very good evidence.
Geek, Esq.
Because they’re more interested in doing their Hyper Progressive Superiority and Purity Dance than bothering themselves with policy details.
What matters is how the President makes them feel, not what the policy and political end-game is.
Why do you think these professional whiners treat every departure from the leftblog list of demands as ‘hippy-punching?’ Because it’s always about them and their feelings.
singfoom
@joe from Lowell:
A DFH. I’m not throwing punches. Nor do I think the DFHs threw the first punch. Regardless, this is beyond pointless.
If you honestly think that I shouldn’t try to describe my policy preferences to the party that I vote for, that’s cool, and you can fuck off. We have nothing to talk about.
On the other hand, what I was discussing is not how DFHs have tantrums and how that makes them unserious and that they must be punched, but how in a rational way, as a DFH, I can work towards the policy outcomes I am interested in?
Your pithy “Don’t throw so many punches” might be a good line, but fails to address any of the points I was talking about.
But you zinged me good. Good job, now keep the flames up.
Bob Loblaw
@Tractarian:
No, they aren’t. Because moderate and independent voters don’t know what a “digby” is, or care. The internet is not nearly as relevant or powerful as people on this thread think it is.
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Oh, I don’t know. The fact that he’s the most socially liberal President ever might play into that. Just a bit.
Do people really not think Obama is left of the American electorate?
BruceFromOhio
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Man, I’m sold, which way to the Romney Campaign? I really like that logo.
FlipYrWhig
@Master of Karate and Friendship: He lobbied for it. In doing so, he ran up against intractable opposition from nominal Democrats beholden to insurance companies. Then he started to spin the public option as only one component of an overall approach to reforming health care and health insurance, in order to mitigate the sense of defeat emanating from the demise of a smart idea.
Geek, Esq.
Also, hasn’t Kelley vowed to never support Obama like 15 times already?
But, in his defense, he probably just plagiarized that sentiment from someone else.
joe from Lowell
@El Tiburon:
I want to draw everyone’s attention to this.
It doesn’t matter what Obama actually does. No matter what is in his budget, no matter how many times actual events prove this wrong, El Tiburon is making it clear that he’s going to keep making the same charge over and over.
Reality simply doesn’t matter. He’s got his story and he’s sticking to it.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Marc:
“Obama isn’t responsible for your paranoid delusions”
Really? It’s a delusion that Obama promised to end military tribunals, but reversed himself? I’m fantasizing the whole thing about Obama saying we can’t drill our way to energy independence, which lead to Republicans handing out tire gauges with Obama’s picture on it? I’m hallucinating that Obama promised not to renew Bush’s tax cuts for the rich?
“This is a case where the entire case rests on reading everything that he does in the most conspiratorial and hostile manner possible”
Yes, only a tinfoil-wearing conspiracist would think a politician who frequently breaks promises would…break a promise.
“What it reveals is people whose reason flies out the window when it comes to Obama”
You are right, that gets revealed all the time.
taylormattd
@Elia Isquire: See, now that’s a fair comment.
FlipYrWhig
@Geek, Esq.:
Plus it has the advantage of wrapping a bunch of never-satisfied internet whiners in the mantle of “hippies.” I think actual hippies probably want Atrios et al to stop their damn bogarting. Also to give their mantle back, because it’s full of aromatic memories.
Linnaeus
@Martin:
Sure, but I’d go further and say that it’s better that the Democrats get the credit for the full situation, which is that they’ve saved money, but kept or improved services. Focus too much on the spending reductions, and you risk legitmating the notion that “entitlements”, spending, and tax rates are in of themselves the problem and that they should just be cut. Now maybe the president has a way to avoid doing that in his speech tomorrow. I’d really like to see that.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Bob Loblaw:
“Oh, I don’t know. The fact that he’s the most socially liberal President ever might play into that. Just a bit.”
That is a personal opinion, not evidence.
This is evidence:
http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-02-17/news/17892613_1_same-sex-marriage-civil-unions-gay-rights
lacp
Given that the budget deal turned out to be very different from what quite a few people thought it would be, I’m curious what the president is going to say tomorrow.
FlipYrWhig
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Saying we can’t achieve energy _independence_ through drilling isn’t the same as saying drilling itself is off-limits. But, yes, energy policy has been hamstrung — mostly by fossil-fuel state Democrats. And it’s a valid, solid complaint about Obama.
Martin
@FlipYrWhig:
Mmmm. Better.
Tractarian
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
If you really believe that this is the story of the 2008 election…. well, there’s your problem.
The policy positions you cite may have helped him among self-described liberals, but (sorry to say) that’s only a fraction of the electorate. Among the vast majority of voters, I guarantee you, these positions didn’t register (either that or they voted for Obama despite his taking those positions – you think).
At some point you will need to get your head around the fact that there will never be a United States President who is as liberal as you are. Never. Obama’s about as good as we’re going to get. Don’t like it? Move to Canada.
cat48
There is a Gang of Six in the Senate that has been redoing Simpson Bowles; if he does embrace it, it is not what they released originally.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
“Reality simply doesn’t matter. He’s got his story and he’s sticking to it.”
You don’t suppose his remark “Obama has another year to give the store away” is based upon reality, do you?
I mean, Obama gave up the store on tax cuts for the rich, on offshore drilling, civil liberties, all sorts of things. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
False equivalence. TARP was an entire bill, while the PO was one element in a larger bill.
Obama lobbied harder for the ACA than he did for TARP, and he didn’t get everything he wanted under TARP, either.
Not to mention, he wasn’t President when TARP was passed.
Geek, Esq.
By the way, I’m totally stealing the “emo” line. Republicans have been using “Eeyore” references for a while, so I’ll pass on that. Besides, Eeyores are just depressed–th emo crowd is depressing and whiny.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Tractarian:
“If you really believe that this is the story of the 2008 election…. well, there’s your problem.”
What is the story, then? Seriously, I would like to see it.
Marc
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
I was talking specifically about Social Security – you know, the program that Obama is allegedly posed to slash tomorrow night? That’s the point – it’s a subject where there is no evidence that he is cutting the program, no element that he’s publicly endorsed, and yet we keep seeing the same rumors.
Stuff that he tried and failed to get through Congress, by the way, wouldn’t count in most people’s minds as evidence of treachery.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
“False equivalence.”
No.
“TARP was an entire bill, while the PO was one element in a larger bill.”
Technically, TARP was an element in the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008.
“Obama lobbied harder for the ACA than he did for TARP”
No he didn’t. He sat back while Senator Nelson fiddled with health care reform for a month, then while Senator Nelson played with it for a mont, sat back while Lieberman messed with it, and so on and suchlike.
“Not to mention, he wasn’t President when TARP was passed.”
So what?
Bob Loblaw
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
That’s true, he really bucked a longstanding trend there. I can remember the days when a politician wouldn’t be caught dead marginalizing gay people in public. Electoral death.
Are you serious?
Joe Beese
@Tractarian:
At this point, I’ll settle for one who doesn’t torture whisteblowers.
Linnaeus
@Marc:
I do remember that, and I agree with you that they jumped the gun.
@joe from Lowell:
Right. But it should be pointed out that the Democrats, particularly the local Democratic legislators, took very strong stands on the anti-union legislation. It was very clear on whose side they stood. They asserted the right to collective bargaining as a basic right. So it’s a mutual dynamic.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Bob Loblaw:
“That’s true, he really bucked a longstanding trend there. I can remember the days when a politician wouldn’t be caught dead marginalizing gay people in public. Electoral death. Are you serious?”
Bob, what are you doing here?
You said “Barack Obama is very socially liberal.” I presented an example of him being the opposite of that. Have you changed your position, or what? And you still haven’t provided evidence that Obama is as socially liberal as you claimed.
Juicetard (FKA Liberty60)
Speaking as a former Republican (until mid-1990’s) I can say the notion that only Dems throw their base under the bus is bullshit.
Republicans thought Reagan would handily undue all the Great Society in one term, reduce the size of govt and ban abortions.
None of that happened,and National Review even had a cover story called “A Lover’s Lament” wailing about how Reagan was caving to the liberals.
Thats politics and we need to grapple with it.
But the thing is, the Republican grip on the electorate didnt just happen overnight- it wasn’t the result of one election, or even a couple- it is the result of a 30 year march, of 30 years of coordinated focus, staying on message, and constant, constant drum pounding for their causes.
All those stories of welfare queens we heard in the 80’s, all the stories of lazy government workers, all those stories of gummint wasteandfraud….those were the seeds that bloomed into the weeds of Teahadism, where working class whites now vehemently rail against an estate tax they will never, ever, have to worry about.
We will win only by being as focused and tireless as they are- the 2008 election was our version of 1980- we got a big win, and a symbolic post, but the ground war (that is, Congress and the courts) is still in the hands of the enemy.
Marc
@Geek, Esq.:
Dismissing any complaint about your behavior as “hippie punching” also means that you never have to deal with criticism; none of it is valid since anyone disagreeing with the emo crowd is just a big meanies.
eemom
@cat48:
That’s right. My Senator, Mark Warner, is a member of that gang. For some reason it has not gotten a lot of attention. Maybe because it’s legislators actually trying to get shit done, as opposed to dramatically unveiling brave, serious plans to fuck over old people and poor people.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Joe Beese:
Firebagger! ! ! ! !
Oh, I just don’t know if I can withstand all this anger! Where is my fainting couch?
El Tiburon
@Uloborus:
Wow. Let’s see what I actually wrote. Not what you have running around in your head. Roll the tape…
Does this sound like I am sure? Do you see that particular phrase right there that says ‘maybe never’? What does that mean to you?
Another example of me admitting I know nothing for sure, as in ‘we’ll know more tomorrow night’
See the word ‘might’ creatively hidden in this paragraph? Doe you still think I am so SURE of anything?
Now, here you are correct. One thing I am SURE of is that many of you will sit there and take it like a stooge.
Huckster
@Butler:
“By staying engaged and working in the world as it exists. Every leftist who writes off or works against Democrats makes them lurch rightward in search of a replacement vote. It pretty fucking simple, actually.”
This.
Juicetard (FKA Liberty60)
also, too-
I mentioned on other threads about how i was so angry after the 2008 election I became a member of MoveOn, and a member of my local Democratic Party Central Committee-
The point is, that anyone can do this- I dont have any special skills or experience, I am just a guy working a normal job-
There isn’t any reason anyone reading this blog can’t go out and join MoveOn, PDA, OFA, or any number of progressive groups, and become an active member of the local Party Committee and work your fucking ass off to turn the tide.
By the way…
on April 18th, MoveOn is holding a national series of events Called “Tax Day-Make Them Pay” where we will be holding rallies and protest to make known that while ordinary americans are paying taxes, big corporations are not.
Go to MoveOns website and find the council in your area and see if you can join.
uptown
OMG! Someone on the internet dared to have an opinion!
Alert John Cole immediately!
I guess John hasn’t heard of the Tea party, which is made up of Republicans who don’t agree with the way their leadership has been leading.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Marc:
“I was talking specifically about Social Security”
I know!
Someone said “don’t worry, Obama promised not to cut Social Security. Then I listed some promises he broke. Then you came out with “paranoid this” and “delusion that.”
joe from Lowell
@singfoom:
What is this, a joke?
Here’s me, comment #25:
Here’s me, comment #46:
Here’s me, comment #71:
Here’s me, comment #89:
Here’s you: If you honestly think that I shouldn’t try to describe my policy preferences to the party that I vote for, that’s cool, and you can fuck off. We have nothing to talk about.
On the other hand, what I was discussing is not how DFHs have tantrums and how that makes them unserious and that they must be punched, but how in a rational way, as a DFH, I can work towards the policy outcomes I am interested in?
Gee, I haven’t the foggiest. Let me think about that for a minute. Maybe I can come up with something.
And no, you didn’t ask “how in a rational way, as a DFH, I can work towards the policy outcomes I am interested in?”
You asked “As a certified DFH, how should we as DFHs respond to the constant punching?”
There is absolutely nothing in that question about policy. Nothing.
Bob Loblaw
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
You certainly did present “an example.” Emphasis on the one.
If you really want to make the case that Barack Obama is some kind of social conservative, let alone in comparison to the Presidents of the 20th century, you go right ahead.
But just know, when people don’t bother responding to you, it isn’t because you’re so obviously right. It’s because you’re a freaking loon.
Elia Isquire
@Juicetard (FKA Liberty60): Right on.
And, in fact, the march began in many ways in 1962 or 3 (whenever you wanna peg the Draft Goldwater start-date). And it was a decade-plus for those people of being “marginalized” or pandered to (and then, in their eyes, betrayed) by RINOs like Nixon and Ford. Reagan loses in 1976, of course.
And as long as that took, it really was remarkably quick by any standard, because the time was so tumultuous and fortuitous towards their purposes.
So, yeah, Obama was, if anything, the Start Date (and I think he’ll probably be seen more as a proto- figure, if we’re lucky enough to have a Liberal movement to look back on in our lifetimes).
Keith G
As for going emo:
Since at least the 1960s, it has been a well-used tactic for presidential administrations to launch leaked trial balloons in order to see what sort of support or push back they can expect. With a president who is as keen to negociate as Obama is, I do think that it is important that Democrats are quick to show the depth of their feelings as policy options are explored.
I like Obama and I think that he is a sharp guy, but I feel that his history as a negociator is spotty. I sure hope it is the case that I am able to trust him more as this year unfolds.
El Tiburon
@joe from Lowell:
Are you and Ulobrus the same person? Doesn’t really matter what I write, it only matters what you want to hear. Par for the course for you though.
What ‘actual events’ from this President prove me wrong? Do you really stand behind the notion this President has backed up his words with actions? That is laughable. Ha. Ha.
What charge am I making over and over? That this President appears to have no problem caving time and again and not making a stand? As Aaron Tippin says, if you don’t stand for something, then you don’t stand for anything.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
“Nice own-goal. You just demonstrated the utter irrelevance of the leftist anti-Obama drumbeat to the political goals and even the political strategy you claim to support.”
Oh, brother. Some people here really, truly can not follow a train of thought, can they?
Someone said “what’s possible can be shifted in politics” referring, it seemed, to people like Obama who don’t work to shift public opinion, instead saying “I can’t do it because there isn’t enough support for it.” BUT, the union-centered protests show that voices speaking out can change things. So Obama should try and move opinion too.
digby
Just as point of fact, it’s not me saying it’s going to be Simpson Bowles, it’s the Washington Post and the NY Times. When I saw the LA Times article saying it was going to be something different, I updated the article.Clearly, these are different trial balloons for which they are looking for reaction. That’s the point.
I hope they decide to go with the LA Times version, obviously. If it is, I’ll celebrate. In the meantime we’re all just going on what we are hearing in the press and analyzing the probabilities in light of previous negotiations and the current political environment. I guess I could blog about something else, but it’s where the conversation is and I’m going to weigh in on what I think of the various proposals and the lay of the political land.
Yesterday, I wrote a long post about how the left vanguard doesn’t represent the Democrats and why it makes sense that Obama would be doing what he’s doing. In fact, short of another economic nosedive, it’s almost impossible to see him losing the election so really, people who support his policies can relax. Everyone from the Weekly Standard to Balloon Juice agrees that we annoyingly “Emo” Eyeores are gasbags shouting into the wind. Why bother even commenting on it if it’s so irrelevant? You have the people on your side.
I happen to think it’s helpful to have a pushy left flank, even if it doesn’t have any popular support and embarrasses the upstanding citizens, but your mileage may vary. John Boehner has certainly makes good use of his much more powerful faction on the right.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Bob Loblaw:
LOL!
Bob, was there a concrete example of Barack Obama being “center-left” socially in that rant?
Tractarian
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Sigh. OK. How about this:
A charismatic rookie Senator won the election by promising to reform health care, end the war in Iraq, keep a civil tone in Washington, respect the views of the other party, and change the status quo brought about by eight years of Republican rule. He was greatly helped by the facts that (1) a major financial crisis struck the nation less than two months before the election, and (2) his opponent was extremely erratic and did not have the trust of his party’s base.
Note: no mention of a public option, Guantanamo or government transparency.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@El Tiburon:
From First Read:
Master of Karate and Friendship
Bob Loblaw, someone earlier wrote this:
“Obama may be left-of-center in American political terms”
What justifies that belief? Honestly, what?
He does not believe in gay marriage. He does not believe government spending can create jobs. He does not believe that people have a right to know what their government is doing, or that terrorists should be tried in regular criminal courts or that government spending should go up during a depression. He doesn’t even think he needs Congressional approval to start a war.
Am I wrong? Prove it. Give me examples of how Obama is left-of-center politically compared to the climate in America.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
No, I don’t. One might as well say that Obama has another year to divorce his wife. There is absolutely no reality whatever to back up the notion that he has any intention of doing so.
And there is absolutely no past behavior to suggest that he will support Social Security cuts. In fact, his past behavior provides ample evidence for the opposite.
But you just ignore that, because it doesn’t fit what you want to believe.
RobertB
World of Warcraft mod? I don’t get that bleep bloop moon language.
/you need the mod that makes WoW sound like Super Mario Brothers
Marc
@digby:
It creates a hell of a lot of bad blood on the left to have these endless brawls; it’s much the same as what happens to married couples if they start arguing with one another on the assumption of bad faith.
It’d help matters quite a bit if the people with a platform could channel constructive things – e.g. call up the White House and tell them about how important Social Security is – as opposed to “Obama will sell us out again.”
Geek, Esq.
@Marc:
These are the same people who constantly harang the Preznit to ‘toughen up’ and ‘get a spine.’
And then whine from behind a virtual screen ID.
Joe Beese
@digby:
Unless your “push” is backed up by a credible threat not to vote for him, it’s not a push; it’s a whine.
You will vote for Obama in 2012. You know this. He knows this.
Admiral_Komack
“Can we please just cut the crap? Seriously? I will never, ever understand the need to pre-emptively go emo. If Obama proposes something bad, there will be ample time to flame it and push back.”
-Hey now!
Fake-ass-progressives just LOVE to poison the well, don’t cha know!
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Tractarian:
Don’t people read what they write before posting? It would save some trouble.
“by promising to reform health care”
“no mention of a public option”
HOW did he promise to reform health care?
“change the status quo brought about by eight years of Republican rule”
Change it? How? In respect to things like, say, Guantanamo Bay and government transparency?
“end the war in Iraq”
I bet if someone ran in 2012, they will have the chance to make the same promise.
Social outcast
How does running around demoralizing your self and your readers serve progressive goals?
Do you think any more than a tiny, tiny slice of voters know who you or Digby are? What Digby thinks about Obama, or what you think about Digby’s opinion of Obama, has no significant impact on the political process. The only point of a site like hers and yours this is the pleasure of expressing an opinion and chatting online with like-minded individuals. There’s no use in pretending that any of it actually matters.
Joe Beese
@joe from Lowell:
Other than signing an Executive Order to create a deficit reduction commission and stocking it with well-known opponents of Social Security.
Other than that, not a single piece of evidence!
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Marc:
“It creates a hell of a lot of bad blood on the left to have these endless brawls; it’s much the same as what happens to married couples if they start arguing with one another on the assumption of bad faith.”
Aw, what’s the matter? Afraid Barack Obama will divorce you?
Berial
The trouble with politics today is that the mind-set of ‘I am right and good and anyone that disagrees with me is wrong and evil and probably the Devil’ has taken root firmly on one side of the political divide and in reaction to that, partially on the other.
How can someone trying to find a workable solution view uncompromising ideologues as anything but impediments?
Our system is designed, so that compromise is necessary for it to work. When policy makers decide that compromise is a ‘bad thing’ then our whole political system is heading for a ‘bad end’.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Not on your say-so, kid.
And Obama lobbied for the entire bill, as I said, and not just for TARP. In fact, he made no special effort for the TARP element, the way he called Congress and spoke publicly specifically about the PO.
Uh, no, this has been refuted again and again. You’re just doing what you always do, and ignoring facts that don’t fit your storyline.
Huckster
@Martin:
Mm hmm
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Joe Beese:
Hey, there’s always the sternly-worded letter. Nothing gets a politician moving like a forceful letter.
El Tiburon
@ #222
Woodrow “asim” Jarvis Hill –
That’s like the store owner finally putting his foot down when the burglars, after stealing all the cash, beer and cigarrettes, wanted to steal the inflatable Miller Lite Beer Lounger Chair.
Boehner had already gotten all he wanted and more.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
“this has been refuted again and again”
Really? Where?
“And Obama lobbied for the entire bill, as I said, and not just for TARP.”
Fine, whatever. I can’t believe I have to repeat this again: it would have been good if Obama worked half as hard for a public option as he did for bailing out Goldman Sachs.
“But–but–but there weren’t enough votes ‘n’ stuff! ! !”
All I am saying is, it would have been nice.
Joe Beese
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
If Obama’s not careful, I’m going to sign one of those FDL petitions.
Don’t play with me, Mr. President. I’ll do it!
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
No, he didn’t. He said the Obama was “the most socially liberal” president of all time. So, pointing out that Obama hasn’t adopted the most socially liberal position of anyone on the internet, or of anyone in society, on gay marriage doesn’t refute that. You’d have to show that there was some other president who’d adopted a more socially liberal position on that issue.
Good luck with that, btw, because you’re not going to find a president whose position on gay marriage is as liberal as Obama’s.
Shoemaker-Levy 9
Sorry, John, but pre-emptive emo works in politics. See August of 2009 for the clearest example. Hell, look at your last post on natural gas for a clear example of pre-emptive emo.
Yutsano
Your ability to troll your own blog is masterful JC. Applause.
Keith G
@digby: But, but, it is so much easier to beleive the characature of your ideas.
Thinking is so hard.
joe from Lowell
@El Tiburon:
The SOTU address, in which he didn’t cut Social Security, after we were assured he would.
The FY2011 budget that was just negotiated, in which he didn’t cut Social Security, after we were assured he would.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
Do you understand how an argument is put together? By “argument” I don’t mean people shouting at each other, but a process of premise+premise=conclusion.
“One might as well say that Obama has another year to divorce his wife.”
No, one might not as well say that, because he has never divorced his wife before. Now, one could say that about Newt Gingrich, but not Barack Obama.
“And there is absolutely no past behavior to suggest that he will support Social Security cuts. In fact, his past behavior provides ample evidence for the opposite.”
Really? He’s never broken a political promise before? Never ever ever? And even if he has, we shouldn’t take that as increasing the likelihood that he will break another?
Are you saying that only cutting Social Security is evidence that someone might cut Social Security? Because that’s a ludicrous proposition.
El Tiburon
@joe from Lowell:
“Obama Threatens Social Security”
Sanders warns Obama not to agree with GOP on Social Security benefit cuts
So, what were you saying about ‘past behavior’ and sticking with “what you want to believe”?
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Joe Beese:
Joe, don’t do anything crazy! Think about what you’re doing!
Tractarian
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Yes, Obama talked about a public option during the campaign. He talked about closing Guantanamo. He promised to do what he could on those issues. And guess what? He did all he could do. Turns out it wasn’t enough.
It’s not my fault if you think that a President can single-handedly turn the ship of state 180 degrees.
I’m not vouching for his negotiating tactics, but it should be fairly clear to any liberal that has been paying attention that Obama is simply not the problem here. The problem is the majority of conservatives in the Senate (including all Republicans and 10-15 Dems) and the House.
That said, you certainly have the right to continue ranting and complaining. In fact, I suggest you keep it up, because a media narrative of “Liberals unhappy with Obama” can do nothing but good for his 2012 campaign.
joe from Lowell
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
I followed your train of thought just fine.
I was just pointing out that it disproved the argument you’ve been making throughout the thread.
What’s that? It doesn’t disprove another argument, that I haven’t been having with you?
Whoop-de-doo! It sure as hell disproves your argument that you need to constantly bash Obama in order to bring about political progress.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
“He said the Obama was “the most socially liberal” president of all time.”
And he backed it up with a lot of evidence. Oh, wait, no he didn’t.
“you’re not going to find a president whose position on gay marriage is as liberal as Obama’s.”
I won’t find one whose position is less liberal, either.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
“It sure as hell disproves your argument that you need to constantly bash Obama in order to bring about political progress.”
When, exactly, did I outline that theory?
“I was just pointing out that it disproved the argument you’ve been making throughout the thread.”
One can’t disprove an argument that hasn’t been made.
El Tiburon
Disregard my prior abortion of a comment on this post:
@joe from Lowell:
Obama Threatens Social Security
The most dangerous feature in the president’s proposed compromise on taxes is not the $700 billion tax cut for billionaires. It is the Trojan horse provision that threatens to destroy Social Security by undermining the longterm solvency of the social insurance system.
Sanders warns Obama not to agree with GOP on Social Security benefit cuts
Obama campaigned against raising the retirement age and cutting Social Security benefits when he ran for president in 2008. In recent weeks, however, he has stayed largely silent on the proposal to cut benefits put forth by the fiscal-responsibility commission he appointed.
so anyway so much for the lack of evidence and sticking to what you want to believe.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Tractarian:
Yes, Obama did everything he could, alright.
“Hey Congress, can I have some extra money to keep the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay in Illinois, under exactly the same conditions? I can’t? Oh well. Better keep them locked up forever in Cuba, then. Because the US military is so cash-strapped that it can’t afford to move the prisoners without help. And I can’t fly in judges and attorneys to have actual trials instead of military kangaroo courts because…well, just because. And I can’t return the prisoners where they were picked up because…uh…look over there, Sarah Palin!”
Master of Karate and Friendship
@El Tiburon:
Let’s throw a link up there:
http://www.thenation.com/article/157022/obama-threatens-social-security
Chyron HR
@El Tiburon:
“Largely silent” is obviously secret code for “vocally supporting”.
Master of Karate and Friendship
@joe from Lowell:
“The SOTU address, in which he didn’t cut Social Security, after we were assured he would.”
Assured by whom?
“The FY2011 budget that was just negotiated, in which he didn’t cut Social Security, after we were assured he would.”
Assured by whom?
Master of Karate and Friendship
@Chyron HR:
You’re right, “largely silent” really means “completely, totally, cross-his-heart against.”
Master of Karate and Friendship
Well, I’m off to appoint a commitee–made up of my dogs–and ask them if they want to go for a walk. I wonder what they’ll say? One thing’s for sure: there’s no evidence here that I want to take them for a walk.
Elliecat
@Juicetard (FKA Liberty60):
But…But…uh…uh…Active? Local? Work? Are you sure you’re allowed to use those words here? I mean, that sounds so….boring…. Isn’t it much more productive to just yell to each other about the Dems selling us out and plan how we’re going to not vote at all or actually work against Obama?
gil mann
Boy, whoever Sean Paul Kelley’s plagiarizing from sure is pissed at Obama.
socialissimo
@cleek: This is an argument I really don’t understand. What’s the difference who signs the bill if it’s a shitty bill/deal? Is Gitmo more tolerable because a Democrat’s in charge? Should we settle for the implementation of some catfood commission ideas becuase, if we don’t, a Republican will implement some catfood commission ideas? That makes no sense. In the immortal words of D.O A., “If you fight for a little, you don’t get a lot.” People voted because they were, if not promised, at least promised an actual attempt to roll back the Republican program and instead they got, “Sorry …. Ben Nelson” (or Lieberman or whichever all-powerful centrist was able to single-handedly crush the mighty and noble Barak).
Norwonk
Now that Republicans have got their spending cuts, I’m sure they’ll agree to raise taxes on the rich.
Aaaaah! It’s good to laugh…
John Cole is new at being a Democrat. People like Digby have long and bitter experience.
Peter
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Your ignorance on this issue is really quite astonishing.
sy2d
@joe from Lowell:
Definition of perfidy: (1) the quality or state of being faithless or disloyal; (2) the act or instance of disloyalty; (3) screwing over your core constituency.
The 2010 midterm election of a republican majority in the House was the result of the perfidy of Obama and the congressional democrats.
I do appreciate the fact that John and so many commenters here suggest that those of a center-left persuasion should continue to be far less disciplined than their counterparts of the center-right in holding elected officials accountable.
Lynn Dee
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: Then why not, instead of wailing all is lost, simply start demanding what it is you want?
I hate all this wailing too. I’m sick unto death of it. It’s hard enough focusing on making the Dems hear what we want them to do without all this wailing going on the background.
Ruckus
@Martin:
Apparently we are all Joe Beese.
You can call me a lot of things, some of them will undoubtedly be true and still not very nice. But I take real exception at this.
themann1086
That is a great add-on. Might even beat out the HighRoller add-on from April 1, 2008 (or was it 2009?). Good times.
OzoneR
I just don’t think liberals have the stomach for politics. They’re more overdramatic than a Phillipa Gregory novel. One unsubstantiated rumor and they’re throwing themselves off buildings. Then when it turns out they were wrong, they try to best to tie things to knots to prove they were right.
Sad Iron
You know what serves Progressive goals? Actually having a progressive President. I get your overall point, and having a Republican in the White House come 2012 will confirm the Mayan’s feel for prophecy, but I don’t begrudge people their anger. I voted for Obama and am starting to feel like that actually makes me a Republican. I guess I can always ask, “Would you rather have Newt Romneybee as president?” No, but do we have to live with this permanent “lesser of two evils” approach to the Presidency? I wouldn’t want to see Ron Paul as President, but at least his supporters know and believe what they’re voting for.
zuzu (not that one, the other one)
Do poor women in DC who need abortions get to be emo?
El Tiburon
@Master of Karate and Friendship:
Thanks. I tried to do too many things in that post and the links did not show up.
The Bernie Sanders story was from The Hill.
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/138061-sanders-warns-obama-not-to-agree-with-gop-on-social-security-benefit-cuts
Corner Stone
@El Tiburon:
You’re clearly not commenting from the DC area.
FlipYrWhig
@Sad Iron:
You know what makes you have a progressive President? Having a majority of progressive voters. Unfortunately, we don’t have that. Find a way to make more. There’s a lot of possible options. In the meantime, some other people are going to try to nudge the unsatisfying, unwieldy, half-assed system that presently exists in a less actively evil direction. Try not to trip them up.
tomvox1
What is most bizarre in Digby’s Update (and I do like Digby more than half the time, i.e. when she’s not wading into Hamsher territory) is blaming Obama for her own misunderstanding of what he may or may not propose:
Just because you jump the gun, Heather, and write an instant “Whoops! Nevermind…”-type post, why do you have to pretend that somehow Obama punked you anyway rather than just admitting you should have kept your powder dry until you understood WTF was really going on? Jeebus…
Corner Stone
Ooooo…a “senior” aide said he said that to Big Orange??
My tingly bits just went got all tingly again. Just like when a “senior” aide reported the President told the banksters he was the only thing between them and the mob.
That had me nethers nethering, lemme tell ya!
Carol from CO
The anonymous tipster who said Obama would use the cat food commission was Jay Carney, Obama’s official spokes person.
FlipYrWhig
@Norwonk:
Some of which even has to do with politics!
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig:
They’re being told by one party that austerity and budget cuts are historic and the right course of action for the country.
And the Republicans are saying similar, also too.
Sad Iron
@FlipYrWhig: Point taken. I get that. I’m just saying I don’t begrudge people their anger or fly off the handle everytime someone’s pissed that, for example, our government appears to hate human beings as a matter of policy. In spirit, I’m totally with you–work hard, make the system better, do the grunt work. Point taken. I’m in Wisconsin, working on recall petitions, etc, etc.
FlipYrWhig
@tomvox1: You remember this method from the “public option” debate. First, listen for Obama to say “public option.” If he doesn’t say it, pounce! If he does say it, listen for tone. Did he say it with enough firmness? Certainly not! Thus, if he mentions it, it’s not good enough, and if he doesn’t mention it, it’s not good enough either.
Mark this well. Obama at some point is going to refer to the Simpson-Bowles commission. At that point, every one of the big bloggers is going to have a simultaneous stroke-slash-autoerotic-asphyxiation-orgasm whose effect is to shut down all “attention” and “critical thought.” We will hear endlessly about cat food.
Then, later, it will turn out that Obama really said that he wanted to incorporate the _best_ ideas from the commission, including raising the cap on earnings subject to SocSec, while discarding the _worst_ ideas. But it will be too late, and the idea that his plan is the nightmare vision of Simpson-Bowles will become part of left blogistan’s sacred lore, like Donnie McClurkin and that truncated quote from Obama about how he didn’t run on the public option.
FlipYrWhig
@Sad Iron: You’re doing much more than I am, so I salute you.
Norwonk
@FlipYrWhig:
Come election day, Digby will pull the lever for Obama. I think that earns her the right to gripe. Her “afterthought” was funny, though – I’ll give you that.
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: Well, this is a chicken and egg dilemma, of course. Is there a narrow conversation because there’s a narrow range of public opinion, or vice versa?
FlipYrWhig
@Norwonk: The constant gloom, though. Man. I think the world does enough to demoralize us that we don’t need to seek out opportunities for further despair. I mean, I’m like that in life. I’m just weary of it in politics.
Joel
@Sad Iron:
And congress, and senate. And a progressive majority opinion and organized political movement to back that opinion. Until that happens…
Hermione Granger-Weasley
Mine was Men Without Hats after a successful Heigan Safety Dance in Naxx.
mk
shorter balloon juice commenters : STFU and take it bitches
El Tiburon
@Joel:
Until that happens…what?
Or, how is it going to happen? By sitting on our hands and keeping the criticism down?
So, when it was time to dump all that tea into the harbor, sounds like some of you would have advised against such a drastic action.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
@Uloborus:
.
.
Egad, you are an unusually dishonest balloonbagger –
I presume you will now laugh and laugh at these simply deluded women, infants and children ingrates.
.
.
Elliecat
@Joel:
I read that a lot here and elsewhere. People are “waiting for the world to change” like that miserable POS song. Someday my prince will come. Someday my ship will come in. Someday my luck will change. Someday we’ll be together, yes we will, yes we will….
How is this going to “happen”? While progressives sit around waiting for this to “happen” the right has taken over local school boards and local municipal, county, and state offices in many places. Gosh, if only voters would “wake up” and “educate themselves” and “see the light” and turn into progressives!
Jay B.
@zuzu (not that one, the other one):
No.
Anyway, I know I’m a crazy dreamer, but what, exactly, are we — or anyone, really — supposed to be supporting here? Cuts? Less cuts? “Historic” cuts?
If Obama and the Democrats “pulled one over” on the GOP, awesome! It would, of course, also help to make the case in the affirmative.
Like “You know what, it’d be suicide to cut right now. Unemployment’s nearly at 9%! Government spending on the federal side is necessary — and responsible — until unemployment goes down. The GOP wants to kill the gains we made in their infancy. Democrats want to extend vital funding because…”
Crazy, crazy firebagging. Making an obvious, truthful and straightforward case. Better to float different trial balloons in three different newspapers and be as opaque as possible.
mk
Hey, I’m with John Cole here. Lets keep that powder nice and dry.
Didn’t FDR encourage his base to hold his feet to the fire?
From Obammy we get called (by proxy, natch) “fucking retards”.
btw, Joel from Lowell comes off like a pretty smart kind of guy but the fuck if there were no real cuts in that budget.
virag
@John Cole:
when you’re definition of a glorious victory is 10% less anal leakage, you’re pretty much fucked. that’s how lots of folks are right now: fucked. and with obama proving to be slightly to the right of bill clinton, those same folks assume there’s more, not less, fucked coming down the pike.
Another Bob
@mk
Yeah, how about these:
*Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children (WIC): $504 million
*State and local law enforcement: $415 million
*Community oriented policing services (COPS): $296 million
*Community health centers: $600 million
*Infectious disease prevention: $277 million
*National Institutes of Health: $260 million
Apparently, some economists are already downgrading their predictions on economic growth because of the anti-stimulus effect of the cuts. But Obama and the Dems earned some valuable bi-partisanship points in agreeing to this, which will surely pay off in the form of renewed respect for him among Congressional Republicans, Teahadists and Birthers. We can expect great dividends from this brilliant strategic move.
negative 1
To any progressives on this board or others (yes, especially Digby) — let’s make a deal. I am a progressive, but probably like others, a lazy one. I yell on comment boards. But how much cash do I give to individual candidates, the lefty ones I really like? None. Big zip. So I realize that I have to go with a choice between the other Dems who have to suck up to corporate money or the other side. You know, the ones who aren’t just “leaning right” or “giving in to the right” but are actively applying the pressure to screw you. The reason is, if I’m not funding them I guess I can’t really complain when they need to go get that funding.
Spare us the epic whine about “all you need to do is vote” because if that were true our guys would be winning, no? Our guys are just getting outfunded, and outspent. And until any of us can change that, either with giant checks or systematically, I’ve got news for you — they will occasionally sell out. Just remember that at the end of the day it’s still the choice between two, so yelling too loudly about how betrayed you are is as productive as berating a teammate for missing a shot.
eemom
@Jay B.:
I have to admit I agree with you.
Dunno which side I’m on anymore.
Corner Stone
From Ed Henry’s twitter feed:
Now, what do you think leaders of the Republican Party are telling that faction?
A] Calm down and stop being so emo. We got this!
B] Yes sir, Mr. TP sir!
TooManyJens
@aimai:
But rumors and speculation aren’t the nitty gritty of politics. They’re cable-news and blog fodder.
I think John is just asking people not to wail and gnash their teeth over every goddamned unsourced story that the gossip rags (you know, like WaPo) print like it’s something that’s actually happened. And if he’s not, I am.
virag
@digby:
i think this qualifies as raining on their parade. explanations just make their heads hurt.
zuzu (not that one, the other one)
@Jay B.:
I’m sure you’ll be scratching your head next time there’s an election and women aren’t terribly excited to vote.
What should we be hoping for? How about not using women’s health care as a bargaining chip? How about not throwing poor women to the wolves as you preserve funding for an organization that women with more money care about? How about, I dunno, raising taxes?
Corner Stone
@digby:
Ouch.
AlphaLiberal
Because they are sending up trial balloons and that’s what we do with sucky trial balloons, junior!
Now where is that line to kick you in the junk? ;-)
Adding: Why is Obama’s position on cutting Medicare and Social Security even a mystery? Because he has been flirting with those cuts.
I mean, Obama is also going to close Gitmo, oppose Bush’s tax cuts, oppose budget cuts during an employment crisis, repeal warrantless wiretapping.
Pardon my ass all to hell for getting cranky!
FlipYrWhig
@TooManyJens: There are some people, too many really, who have their teeth pre-set to “gnash.” It’s fun! “I’m pissed off about this latest thing because I was already pissed off about the last one, and I’m already good and ready to be pissed off about the next one! And if this one doesn’t pan out, don’t worry, there’s always another one coming!”
mrmike
@Bob Loblaw:
I do not think he is to the left of the centre of the general population. Socially or Economically. I do think that the pool of likely voters is not representative of the population in general. That said, I don’t think he’s left of the electorate either.
FlipYrWhig
@virag: I think it qualifies as pissing on yourself, then being mad at how it keeps on raining.
Corner Stone
@AlphaLiberal:
It’s a mystery!
FlipYrWhig
@mrmike: You believe there are millions of left-minded people who don’t get counted in the electorate because they don’t bother to vote? Or are you counting children?
eemom
@FlipYrWhig:
but I am not in that category. I’ve been a staunch Obama defender.
I still don’t blame him for shit like Gitmo that clearly wasn’t his fault. I praise the good stuff he’s done, especially ACA.
But these fuckers are hell-bent on UNDOING all that. He needs to stop all this pansy ass compromising and fucking fight back.
Just like Eugene Robinson said in that piece I linked this morning, the republicans aren’t playing “politics as the art of the possible” anymore.
mrmike
@FlipYrWhig:
Yes. And yes. I do count “children” insofar as that includes teenagers and people barely of voting age. They are manifestly more socially tolerant and liberal than the older generation (who vote in abundance). I also believe that turnout among the “hard” left wing of the country is substantially lower than among the hard right. This skews the electorate to the right.
Nerull
The “base” cuts and runs at the slightest hint that they might not get everything they want right away. Then they wonder why politicians don’t hinge their re-election chances on them.
The only thing more cowardly than the democratic congress is the democratic base.
negative 1
@digby: How is it helpful? You claim that it is but don’t support it. It is helpful to provide alternate candidates or better policies, but what are you positing we all should do? Claim “don’t blame me, I voted for Kusinich?” for the next four years while President Romney doesn’t even bother to flinch as he eliminates social security entirely, along with the EPA and public sector unions?
Marc
When you shout betrayal all the time, based on rumors, it gets counterproductive. This lesson goes all the way back to the boy who cried wolf and shouldn’t be controversial.
When you spend all of your time talking about how rotten the democrat is, and none of your time on the republicans, it works to the advantage of the latter regardless of your motives. Again, this shouldn’t be controversial.
But somehow we’re supposed to take people spending all of their energy on attacking Democrats as “good”, to take their abuse quietly, and also be very very very sensitive to their tender feelings. Because as, you know, if there is anything that characterizes “the base”, it is “I’ll look for the worst possible motives from you, threaten not to support you or throw the election to the other side, and spend all of my time attacking you”.
Jesus.
And at the same time the rest of us get frustrated too – at how badly the Dems muddle things, tactical disasters (like not passing the budget last fall and raising the debt limit – brilliant, no?) and people too much in the thrall of Big Business. But we also see that he’s dealing with the nuts and that sometimes he fails because they block him.
It’s the blindness about the latter, not the recognition of the former, that really drives me around the bend.
FlipYrWhig
@eemom: Compromising is politics. “Fighting” is theater. The outcome sucks because Republicans suck, and if they don’t vote for something, it’s not going to happen. I don’t see what’s to be gained by taking that basic proposition and adding a lot of antics.
Bob Loblaw
@FlipYrWhig:
You don’t? Have you seen minority turnout historically?
I used the word “electorate” purposely. I don’t think Obama as executive is anything more than a centrist compared to the ideal. But compared to who actually bothers/is allowed to vote in this country, yeah, he’s liberal enough overall. Very much so socially, not so much on labor economics.
Marc
@eemom:
I gotta agree. At some point you need to stand up to the bullies and he’s just passing along the lunch money. The compromising has gotten well into appeasement territory and it’s frustrating. The cowards
That’s not the same thing, however, as pretending that he has a secret plan to slash Social Security benefits.
FlipYrWhig
@mrmike: If there were millions of lefties-in-training waiting to be mobilized, that would be tremendously powerful. I don’t see it. If it could be a movement, though, it needs to vote, and it needs to handle disappointment, because it’s not going to be a majority any time soon unless it joins a coalition of people who already vote and already have a voice.
Patrick
Here’s the problem when it comes to using your party’s base as something to raffle off when it comes time to bargain with the loonies: Your narrative is reduced to the same bullshit that the Republicans run on. You’re left trying to scare the shit out of your base over how crazy the other side of the aisle is and how we’re all going to die if we don’t all suck it up this one time and vote for a President who isn’t representing the interests of his base.
In the world of sharp elbows and Machiavellian deals that is national politics, that’s acceptable motivation. In the world of your average engaged base voter, it’s not.
Bottom line: berating people for not getting fired up by getting fucked less than they could have been fucked is pointless.
“Vote for us because you won’t get fucked as hard as you will by the other guys” isn’t a brand nor is it a platform. It’s a message for a party whose only chance at avoiding another hammering will be the incompetence and zealotry of the people on the other side of the aisle.
TooManyJens
When my daughter was born, a friend of mine was very angry that I didn’t call her to tell her. I explained later that I had tried to call right away but couldn’t reach her, and she realized that she’d been essentially impossible to contact at the time.
But it was too late — she’d already experienced all that anger, and still had the vivid memory of feeling that I didn’t care enough to tell her. Even though she later found out that it was based on a mistaken belief, I think it colored our interactions for a long time after that.
@Tom Q:
I really think the anger from believing those things leaves a sort of imprint in people’s minds. Even when they find out that they’re wrong, the anger has done its damage. Which of course is one more reason to make sure that you’re right about whatever it is you’re getting angry about.
FlipYrWhig
@Marc: FWIW, I intensely dislike the bullies/lunch money analogy, because it presumes that confronting the bully makes the bully stop. That’s not even true about real-life bullying, if it ever was. Sometimes literal or metaphorical fighting back works, sometimes it doesn’t. The analogy just muddies the waters.
FlipYrWhig
@Patrick:
Maybe your standard is too high. “Those fuckers are crazy” makes me want to stop the crazy fuckers. I don’t need anything else.
sherifffruitfly
You still just don’t get it.
“True progressives” are merely following the same basic strategy as the other anti-Obama group: teabaggers. That strategy is simple: just throw up as much shit as you possibly can, and hope that some of it sticks.
You don’t try to reason with teabaggers do you? Of course not. No more should you waste your time trying to reason with “true progressives”. They are and always will be anti-Obama. Period.
FlipYrWhig
@TooManyJens:
Yes, I totally agree. It powers the inductive reasoning that validates every subsequent gripe. Psychologists must have studied what happens to a belief when its explanation is revealed to be untrue. Like you, I think that it tends to hang around as if it were confirmed anyway.
Lit3Bolt
@rickstersherpa:
Religion bashing and evangelical atheism are great points for Why Liberals Fail. So is the eternal liberal blog quest for the perfect Snarkbolt (Rank 9) or Emobeam (Rank 8), that perfectly demonstrates your wit and verve and Wins the Intertubes For All Time. This goes for you too, JC.
@digby:
This type of bitchy attitude is exactly what JC was talking about in this post. With the current attitude of many liberal bloggers, I 100% sure all of them are funneling chlorpromazine and paroxetine down their collective throats, staving off their epic suicide poems to write one more post of How The Left Was Totally Betrayed By the Cruel Mean World. I’ve seen no productive suggestions, no directions, no leadership, no encouragement. Just a great big epic whine in fucking blogger-code about DFHs-catfood-Mittens-11th Dimensional Chess-Bobo-punching-Shrill-Moore Awards. And infighting, we have plenty of that.
Just admit you’re all competing for traffic and get it over with.
Jay B.
@zuzu (not that one, the other one):
No, I won’t be very confused, I’ll be angry! Don’t they realize they are a bargaining chip and poor to boot? For every one of them who dies or doesn’t vote, that’s just another success for the Democrats’ compromising instincts.
Poor, knocked up women in DC, like us, should be happy with whatever scraps we get. And since we should be happy and never, ever, emo about things that we believe in — I mean would it kill us to scrap WIC without complaint? — it’s plainly obvious that, for the greater good, women, even poor minority ones, should be totally psyched to vote Lesser Evil ’12.
Berto
We should wait until Iraq turns into a clusterfu** before having the temerity to criticize that too.
Patrick
@FlipYrWhig
I meant to also state that I’ll be voting as I always do. I’ve got my own sharp elbows. At the same time, I understand why so many folks on this side of the aisle are frustrated. It’s like watching the party re-do the 90s all over again…except without the roaring economy.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Lit3Bolt: I was going to comment, then I read yours, and that was pretty much it. Consider me concurred, nothing to see here but a lot of storm and fury still signifying nothing.
StringonaStick
Anybody here actually read the Deficit Commission report? I’ve been reading it and taking notes, and getting pissed at how each side is pulling out partial truths in order to motivate an army of petition button clickers. Extra pissed at Ryan for taking the few parts he liked, putting them on steroids and then adding a whole main course of libertarian wingnut fantasy like 2.6% unemployment to make his economic model spit out numbers he liked; total, complete, intellectual dishonesty.
In an ideal world, we wouldn’t have these hideous financial issues at the federal level, but instead we have one where Shrub & Co totally fucked the budget, debt, and deficit in pursuit of their narrow agenda; states and municipalities aren’t in much better shape. The left crying “tax those bastards the rich and corporations, hard” isn’t much different than the average low-info righty who thinks the whole thing can be solved by killing CPB, PP, and foreign aid. The dollar figures involved are much, much, much bigger than that.
Having an opinion is a good thing, having an informed opinion is even better, but having a strong opinion on something you haven’t read but have read someone else’s filtered conclusions about is simply not the same thing as figuring it out for yourself from primary rather than secondary resources.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
Or to borrow a quote from a different internet slapfight:
“To most everybody here, points #1 and #2 do not matter because of the fundamental truth of message boards like this one: they are a place for people to dig in their heels and try to prove how right they are, rather than engage in actual discussion.”
4jkb4ia
Greg Sargent–
Later in the post Sargent said that both he and Ezra were told that Bowles-Simpson will NOT be the entire basis for Obama’s speech.
/attempting to preserve some semblance of a life by not checking 300 comments to see if someone else posted this
Mnemosyne
@StringonaStick:
I can absolutely guarantee you that the people screaming about the “catfood commission” have not. In fact, I can further guarantee you that they have absolutely no idea that there are two different plans referred to as “Simpson-Bowles” by the media with no indication which one they’re talking about.
There’s the Bowles & Simpson PowerPoint presentation to the media that was pretty much the oligarch’s wishlist to return us to the Gilded Age, and then there’s the report of the actual deficit commission, which has things in it like increasing the Social Security cap and transitioning to a single payer healthcare system.
It’s helpful for a whole lot of people on both sides to elide the two together and pretend that the PowerPoint presentation and the actual commission report are the same thing, or even essentially the same thing, when they barely resemble one another. I’ve been explaining this for months and all I get are cries of, “Cat food! They’re going to make grandma eat cat food!”
Max Power
Shorter Sean Paul Kelley: GO GOP!
Fucking idiot.
Max Power
@Chris G:
Well, that just makes too much sense and it’s much more fun to complain about how bad Obama sux on teh internets.
El Tiburon
@Mnemosyne:
Oh, well. Then. We are all going to be okay.
Why don’t you tell us what other types of things are in the “okey-dokey” report. Such as lowering SS benefits and raising the retirement age (for those who can do so wink wink)
Or lowering the top tax rate to 28%. So, there you go.
Also, it recommends tort reform because all experts agree that the tort system makes health care more expensive. Just like most experts agree climate change is God farting on us.
Oh, and the part about reducing federal pensions because they are totally out of line with the private sector.
On and on. But as long as you guarantee that nobody knows what’s in it, then ok.
Parrotlover77
I’m late to the comment party here, but this post made my day!
MikeMc
Who the fuck is Sean Paul Kelley?
Bob
The problems with your articile is that this President continues to follow a conservative agenda and nearly every action of his supports this fact, like his refusal to rein in wall street let alone really investigate what happened in 2008/2009, his inability/lack of desire to deal with the really giant issues of our day like the huge gap between rich and poor in this country, and on and on and on. The fact that he’s done a few good things doesn’t obviate the fact that he’s in the pocket of the corporatists and their allies. And he has no interest in supporting what you and I believe since you will never hold him accountable. I on the other hand will never vote for this man or any blue dog again.
Bob
One added thought; did you really think that who this president picked to serve on the cat food commission was an accident? Or all those conservative Dems that are now in charge of the myriad federal agencies? Or his cutting sweetheart deals with the pharma and healthcare corporations during the healthcare process? Yes, he gives a really good speech, but you are completely ignoring the obvious.
The Raven
“If Obama proposes something bad, there will be ample time to flame it and push back.”
John, do you really believe he’s not going to propose something bad? Something wrapped up in a shiny package, so that his loyalists (and why is personal loyalty to a leader playing such a large roll in democratic politics anyway?) can say it’s really OK?