I guess they’re just celebrating Confederate History Month…

Fort-Sumter-Currier-and-Ives-Lithograph

We are hours away from the 150th Anniversary of a group of traitors launching a war on America. It was 4:30 AM on April 12, 1861 when Fort Sumter was attacked to protect slavery and other notions of white supremacy. Boiled down, the Civil War was about a small group of elites who used arguments about racism–wrapped in a patina of false patriotism and illusions of honor–to get a lot of poor folks to die in a war fought to protect the “rights” of a small group of elites to steal the labor of others.

Before the shooting started, there were many who sought a compromise to avoid the coming bloodshed. From 1820 to 1861, the Confederates made demand after demand and every time the demands were met–the goal post was moved and new demands were issued. Finally their demands left zero room for compromise as their minority demanded absolute capitulation from the majority to their crazy ass ideas and fantasies. They were called out on their bullshit and they responded with treason and violence.

In many ways, the current skirmish over funding the Government for the next six months and the larger coming battle over Paul Ryan’s Path to a Galtian Utopia has very strong echoes of the build up to the Civil War. The names of the Parties have flipped, but the battle lines are similar. One side is unwilling to compromise and welcomes chaos with giddy excitement. The other is willing to embrace painful compromise to preserve the Union–agreeing to meet the Confederates far more than halfway time and time again. And yet–then as now–any compromise with the Confederates is never enough. Each new agreement just opens the door to more crazy and a fresh new unreasonable demand.

ConfederateGOP Logo

In an ironic twist, Lincoln’s old Party has been taken over by Confederate Dead-enders and Progressive forces have taken root over in the Democratic Party (history is filled with subtle humor and in-jokes).

Just as their antecedents did a century and a half ago, the modern Republican Confederate Party continues to insist on no compromises in pursuit of their reality-free and ever-changing demands and that the majority of America capitulate to their Galtian fantasies. And once again those dedicated to preserving Union, keep trying to work with these extremists to prevent harm to our Nation. But at some point bullies and assholes must be confronted–especially when they go too far. 150 years ago a breaking point was reached. It could happen again.

Perhaps a shutdown will be avoided this evening. If it is, it will be because another CR to fund the Government for two to three days more was passed. That will give the Confederate Party anther 72 hours or so to make fresh new demands and move the goal post once again. And if by some happy chance they keep their word this time, we can be sure that they will play the same game around extending the Federal debt limit in a few weeks and again in the fall when they have a new opportunity to take the Government hostage.

Like the Confederates of 1861, the modern Confederate movement is dedicated to protecting a handful of elites and their ability to steal labor while cost shifting expenses to the poor and middle class. Regardless of how they choose to brand themselves (from GOP to Tea Party to Libertarian to Conservative) this movement shares a vision that is more CSA than USA. And like the Confederates of old they use appeals to racism–wrapped in a patina of false patriotism and illusions of honor–to get a lot of poor white folks to support policies that will ultimately hurt them.

If talks break down and there is a government shutdown all National Parks will close. Among them will be the National Park at Fort Sumter. Over the next few days events were planned to commemorate the start of the Civil War. These events will be cancelled in the wake of a Government shutdown. If this occurs it is a way for the modern Confederates to take a fresh shot at the old Fort. So perhaps the Republican Confederate Party effort to shut down the Government is just a misguided way to celebrate Confederate History Month. That’s about the best I could say for them.

Cheers






154 replies
  1. 1
    MikeJ says:

    I’m hoping for a Dennis G. post on the anniversary of the Colfax Massacre too.

  2. 2
    Butler says:

    Um… my calendar says its the 8th. Aren’t we about 4 days away from this anniversary?

  3. 3
    Keith G says:

    Perhaps a shutdown will be avoided this evening.

    It has. It cost us more cuts, but Planned Parenthood is safe. Sigh.

    I wanted a fight.

  4. 4
    Hermione Granger-Weasley says:

    Perfectly true.
    But the demographic timer is going to fix all that.
    We just have to hang on, Dennis.
    We will get Jefferson’s and Lincoln’s utopia back.

    tick….tick……tick…

  5. 5
    Corner Stone says:

    Hobby horse. You haz it.

  6. 6
    Hermione Granger-Weasley says:

    @Keith G: they lost when Reid got on CNN and ‘splained shit.

  7. 7
    Linnaeus says:

    If anyone needs any cheering, tomorrow is the anniversary of Lee’s surrender at Appomattox Court House in 1865.

  8. 8
    Daniel says:

    I’m sorry, but this is about the dumbest piece of junk I’ve ever seen. Forget the intellectual ridiculousness of it for a second. From a purely instrumental political perspective, this is about as effective as saying that the Republicans a bunch of Nazis.

    Slavery? Really? These are fairly elected representatives. They have constituents. Some of those constituents are not, actually, suffering from false consciousness, and may indeed actually disagree with you.

    Make all the points you want about the vacuity of the current Republican Party. Or about how small segments of that party have taken it over. But to compare them to slave-holding southerners? Dumb AND stupid.

  9. 9
    JAHILL10 says:

    @Linnaeus: That cheers me up.

  10. 10
    Corner Stone says:

    @Keith G: I’m seeing questions about a shutdown still. What’s the agreed to deal?

  11. 11
    Corner Stone says:

    @Keith G:

    I wanted a fight.

    Who did you imagine would provide one?

  12. 12
    Dennis G. says:

    @Butler:
    Using the word “hours” was a bit of poetic license. I could have said “days” as well, but I wanted to play with the countdown to the shutdown meme of the evening and hours seemed like the right word.

    Cheers

  13. 13

    Couldn’t be more true of an analogy.

    The lingering echo the new Confederate party needs to pay special attention to, is the hazy image of one William Tecumseh Sherman.

    In the end it’s the only way they will change their ways.

  14. 14
  15. 15
    General Stuck says:

    @Keith G:

    There might be an agreed to deal with leadership, but the tea tards still have to approve it, and that is a big if, and a political loss for the wingnuts if they have to get dem votes to pass it. Civil War time for the GOP. Maybe they will retake FT Sumpter from the yankee Park Service rangers.

  16. 16
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mark S.: Wow. $60B gone just to keep some semblance of status quo.
    And Stuck is a craven fool.

  17. 17
    General Stuck says:

    @Mark S.:

    You know, you get up the courage to disagree directly with what I write. Otherwise, I didn’t call it a victory, but look at it as simply not a loss. Shutting down the government isn’t really a good idea for anyone in the real world outside of blogs.

  18. 18
    Dennis G. says:

    @Corner Stone:
    Terms of the deal have not been announced but rumors are flying. One Republican Senator has already posted an announcement of the deal on his web site, but others are saying he jumped the gun.

    Dave Weigel reports that the GOP Reps will meet at 9:45 to discuss the possible deal. I sorta expect them to blow it up, but we shall see…

  19. 19
    Martin says:

    I wouldn’t take a victory lap just yet. Leadership appears to have come to at least one agreement prior to today only for the caucus to reject it. If there’s no staff at the meeting right now and nobody is talking, then the GOP leadership isn’t confident that they can sell it.

  20. 20
    General Stuck says:

    @Corner Stone:

    And you are still a lying sack of shit, but you do have some kindred spirits here. When are you going to come out as the ratfucking republican you are?

  21. 21
    Corner Stone says:

    @General Stuck: Yawn.
    What’s your political voting registration again?

  22. 22
    Martin says:

    @Corner Stone: Gone? Gone where? I can’t think of any group that doesn’t want something cut. If $30B was from defense, would the left call it a failure?

  23. 23
    Dennis G. says:

    @Martin: Yep. Even if there is a three day extension to work out the larger deal, you can expect them to drive to the brink again and break their word. At some point things will break. Hell, things are already pretty fucked, but there are still many things left standing, so I expect more damage before it is done.

    So it goes.

  24. 24
    Corner Stone says:

    @Martin: The playing field has been ceded. We’re no longer even contemplating arguing democratic positions. Just less republican ones.

  25. 25
    Martin says:

    @Dennis G.: Well, those 87 freshman GOPers in the House have no idea what the consequence of these things is, so they keep doubling down on the stupid. They’re still living in their randian dreamworld. That’s why when guys like Coburn start speaking up, everyone really should be listening. Crazy or no, guys like him know how to keep their seats.

  26. 26

    Always enjoy your Civil War stuff. One thing I’d change:

    Progressive forces have taken root over in serve as the in-house punching bag for the Democratic Party

  27. 27
    Martin says:

    @Corner Stone: Well, perhaps we shouldn’t have lost the House then. All budgets start there. They get to write all the drafts.

  28. 28
    scav says:

    On topic and might just soothe the waiting for some (BBC Podcast). (I’ve not listened to it yet FYI) A House Divided: The Poetry of the American Civil War. Claims to have music too.

  29. 29
    Mark S. says:

    @General Stuck:

    Yes, a govt. shutdown would hurt, but so will 60 billion in spending cuts, none of it military. I was told that it wasn’t wise to draw the line at the Bush tax cut extensions, and now it isn’t wise to draw any line here (well, except for Planned Parenthood, which cost another billion in cuts). What do you think the goopers are going to demand to raise the debt limit, which is a matter of life or death? I’m guessing they’ll demand repeal of the ACA and implementation of the Ryan plan.

  30. 30
    Corner Stone says:

    @Martin: I’m sorry that we still hold the Senate and WH. It’s a crying fucking shame that the R’s can force us to agree to their debate terms with the House.

  31. 31
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mark S.:

    What do you think the goopers are going to demand to raise the debt limit, which is a matter of life or death? I’m guessing they’ll demand repeal of the ACA and implementation of the Ryan plan.

    What will be even funnier is to see the fucking simps here explain away why we HAD to give what we give for the debt ceiling hostage negotiations.
    And what does any mofo think will happen in Sept when we debate the next FY budget??

  32. 32
    Alex says:

    Dude, you’ve made it quite clear by now you’re writing some type of dissertation on the Confederacy. Your effort to jam a square peg into a round hole, day after day, current event after current event, is immensely tiresome. Get a new hobby. #letthememedie

  33. 33
    General Stuck says:

    @Corner Stone:

    It’s independent, yellow dog independent. At least I vote and you don’t. Why is that?

    @Mark S.:

    It’s not 60 billion, it’s 39 billion, and don’t give me fucking FDL math. I got no time for pearl clutchers tonight. And future readers. If this deal does get passed, it will be from a union of dems and most wingnuts in the House, triangulating against the tea tards. Now who do you think wins from that?

  34. 34
    Ruckus says:

    @Martin:
    I don’t think they care about keeping their seats. This is a guerrilla attack. They are the ground troops. They are there to inflect enough wounds in enough places to get capitulation. We are playing politics and they are serious guerrilla warriors. They have been sent in at a moment in time after the nation has been softened up to wreck havoc. The conservative generals will reward them later, after they have taken everything.
    How do you stop it? I have no idea. We could play hardball and short term have everyone suffer badly. But that might be the only way, take the long view and let them shut it down. Let them burn their bridges and everything else.

  35. 35
    Jim Pharo says:

    Same jerks pulled the same stunt in Philadelphia in 1776. And in England the century before that.

    Rich entitled jerks are a cancer on society in general, always have been and always will be. What changes is how effective the counter-weight is. And right now, it’s been completely ineffective.

  36. 36
    Hermione Granger-Weasley says:

    @Corner Stone: meh. conservatives lost when Reid framed it as the teatards vs America.
    Don’t be so cranky. I don’t think Distributed Jesusland can ever take the house or the Senate again.

    On November 9 2012 the draw-down will start in A-stan.
    On Jan 1 2020 the kids from the 2008 event will start aging into the electorate.
    Its ovah.

  37. 37
    NR says:

    @Keith G:

    I wanted a fight.

    You’re funny. Why fight the Republicans when appeasing them is so much easier?

  38. 38
    Corner Stone says:

    @General Stuck:

    It’s independent, yellow dog independent. At least I vote and you don’t. Why is that?

    Sure you do, big guy. What makes you think I don’t vote? I vote for Hills every election.

  39. 39
    NR says:

    @General Stuck:

    Now who do you think wins from that?

    The Republicans. There’s no difference between Republican legislation that passes with Republican votes, and Republican legislation that passes with Democratic votes. In fact, the latter is worse, because it ensures that the Democrats will take the blame for the consequences of Republican policy.

    If the reports about this deal are true, the Republicans got $9 billion more in cuts than they started out asking for. Only Obama could negotiate like that.

  40. 40
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NR: They got $109 billion in cuts? Wow, that is the first I heard of this.

  41. 41
    NR says:

    @General Stuck: Also, too, the Republicans will need appeasement again next month when the debt limit is reached.

    I can’t wait to see what else the Dems will give away then, and have you call it a great progressive victory.

  42. 42
    Corner Stone says:

    @NR: $9B more ?
    It’s interesting that the number started at $33B as the extreme “want” position and now we’re looking at a shutdown even though the D’s are agreeing to $39B in cuts.

  43. 43

    Dengre, the term you are looking for that describes when one side keeps responding to compromises with increasing demands is appeasement. The Republican tendency to call any kind of negotiation with anyone appeasement is just another case of projection.

  44. 44
    Corner Stone says:

    @NR: It’s a win as long as the D’s agree to something.

  45. 45
    General Stuck says:

    @Corner Stone:

    You won’t answer who you voted for in the general, Mccain or Obama, or didn’t vote, and Texas does not allow impromptu write in votes. They have to be pre certified candidates. So who did you vote for? Obama or Mccain, or nobody? Simple question, unless you’re a felon. Then you have an excuse, at least.

  46. 46
    General Stuck says:

    @NR:

    Hi NR, Bye NR.

  47. 47
    MikeJ says:

    For the people who are against a deal, which part of it are you against, or are you just funhouse teabaggers who hate the concept of any compromise whatsoever?

  48. 48
    Corner Stone says:

    They’ve done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.

  49. 49
    Bob Loblaw says:

    @MikeJ:

    Probably the part where it would be the largest one-time discretionary budget cut ever at a time of 9% nationwide unemployment. I’m guessing.

    TPM says that Congress will likely pass some slapdash stopgap to last the weekend. So I’ll assume we’ll get the final contours of the real deal by Sunday or whatever. Hooray childish brinkmanship…

  50. 50
    JAHILL10 says:

    @MikeJ: Don’t ask them to defend an actual position that has any hope of succeeding in the real world. The point is to make the valiant stance — while we slide into a double dip recession.

  51. 51
    Mnemosyne says:

    @MikeJ:

    I have to admit, I just don’t understand the people cheering for a government shutdown. Are they too young to remember the last one?

  52. 52
    Corner Stone says:

    @JAHILL10: Yeah. Let’s just keep giving it up.

  53. 53
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mnemosyne: Not cheering for anything. But this is a bona fide losing spot for Republicans. Just like the extension of the Bush Tax Cut deal was a losing spot for Republicans.
    Why exactly do we keep giving those positions away?

  54. 54
    Blue Carolinian says:

    The debt limit will be raised. Why? Because a lot of the country club and Wall St. types are heavily invested in government bonds, and they are really the ones who control the GOP. For all the flailing and scare-mongering about China, they only own 6% of the debt. The vast majority of debt is held by domestic investors.

  55. 55
    Martin says:

    Hmm. 90 minutes to deadline and no information. GOP caucus has been meeting for an hour. I’m not optimistic.

  56. 56
    JAHILL10 says:

    @Corner Stone: Who says they won’t pay? I mean threatening to shut down the government so they can deny women pap smears? How is that a winning position?

  57. 57
    General Stuck says:

    @Martin:

    Neither am i. It is a big step for Boehner and the old guard to diss the tea tards and join with dems to pass something like this. I think they will eventially get the tea tards to go along, but they need for the government to be shut down for a little while to keep the crazies in line, and on board the wingnut pirate ship.

    edit hope I am wrong

  58. 58
    Corner Stone says:

    @JAHILL10: It’s not. Why are we giving ground to it?

  59. 59
    Valdivia says:

    @General Stuck:

    The fact that Teabag Queen Bachman was making noises in favor of a deal without the riders says it all.

  60. 60
    jazzgurl says:

    Nothing has really changed through the years. The Yankee Americans are here in different personnel in the Wild Wild West!

  61. 61
    Keith G says:

    @Mnemosyne: I do not want a shut down. I want to support a political party that tells the craven mule suckers known as the GOP to go pound sand.

  62. 62
    Martin says:

    @Corner Stone: Because if we didn’t then nobody would be talking about the riders and nutty demands, and everyone would be wondering why the Dems are refusing to negotiate on the budget. It’s called politics, and the Dems are doin it rite.

  63. 63
    JAHILL10 says:

    @Corner Stone: We aren’t. Didn’t you see Harry Reid — Harry Reid of all people — go on camera this afternoon and say this was a non-starter? The point is they have outed themselves as complete wing nut demagogues. Their position coming up on the new budget and the debt ceiling is weaker, not stronger.

  64. 64
    Bob Loblaw says:

    @JAHILL10:

    You want an actual position?

    Government isn’t bad. Government isn’t wrong, isn’t broken, and isn’t a burden. Government isn’t too expensive. Our debt isn’t too expensive.

    There is no real economic rationale to be cutting discretionary government spending right now. It’s an abstract goal of a criminal coterie that has abject contempt for 75% of this nation’s citizens just for having the indecency to exist at all. And it shouldn’t be appeased.

  65. 65
    Stillwater says:

    @Corner Stone: Why exactly do we keep giving those positions away?

    Re: the compromise over the shutdown, I think it’s likely that lots of Democrats were quite happy to see some cuts to overall spending, in particular ones that aren’t liberal flash points, especially when they have some political cover.

  66. 66
    General Stuck says:

    @Valdivia:

    The fact that Teabag Queen Bachman was making noises in favor of a deal without the riders says it all.

    Very good point. Thank you!!

  67. 67
    Corner Stone says:

    @Martin: Yeah. Now let’s see if they give it up or not.

  68. 68
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Keith G:

    I do not want a shut down. I want to support a political party that tells the craven mule suckers known as the GOP to go pound sand.

    So in your scenario, we’d still have a government shutdown, but you’d feel better about it?

  69. 69
    JAHILL10 says:

    @Bob Loblaw: Okay, now take that position to the Republican controlled House and get a budget passed before midnight tonight. See how that doesn’t work? I’d love to tell these fuckers to fuck off too, but guess what, we waited until they were freakin’ elected to get upset at what these freaks might do in office. Now you have to deal with their wingnuttiness for the next two years. Welcome to the real world.

  70. 70

    @General Stuck:

    well, the conservatards get to tell their folk folksy half truths about how the democrats were willing to cut 1-4 billion elsewhere to save planned parenthood, throw in some reagan voodoo, and their base will be pissed that planned parenthood costs as much as the navy!

  71. 71
    Corner Stone says:

    @JAHILL10: Let me ask you something. When do they stop?

  72. 72
    Martin says:

    @Corner Stone: Well, consensus seems to be building that the GOP are being assholes here. Dems are acting as though they are well aware of that consensus. I think the Dems are going to hold the line here.

  73. 73
    Valdivia says:

    @General Stuck:
    You’re welcome! The amount of grief they got all day from every corner had them on the defensive about the insanity of the riders. When Bachman cried uncle you could see where this was going. But–I think it shows Boehnor is not really in control.

  74. 74
    Corner Stone says:

    @Martin: Of course they’re assholes. Now let’s see how much they get rewarded for it.

  75. 75
    JAHILL10 says:

    @Corner Stone: When we kick their butts out of office. Honestly, listening to the rhetoric that is coming from the right side of the aisle, I think we are dealing with a bunch of kamikaze nuts who are willing to burn the whole country down in order to make whatever point their fevered brains want to make. Take your pick: 1) Womens and their uteri be evil 2) The blackKenyanmooslim president only gets one term 3) the poor need to be rounded up in concentration camps for orderly extermination

  76. 76
    Bob Loblaw says:

    @JAHILL10:

    Yes, yes, “the real world.”

    I can’t help but notice that the rallying cry in that real world seems to be “We’ll do better next time.” Because things are just so tough and complicated and unknowable.

  77. 77
    Cerberus says:

    @General Stuck:

    I love you man, despite myself sometimes, but really, you have no idea how badly you just burned yourself.

    I’m sorry man, but anything you add from this point further is just you digging yourself deeper.

    I truly am, very sorry.

  78. 78
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal: If there is a shut down they will tell their folk that the Ds wouldn’t agree to a deal unless gay abortions for illegal immigrants were fully funded. They will lie no matter what the result. That is a given.

    In my view, the fight is going to have to happen. If it is not now, it will be over the debt ceiling. The question then becomes whether the chances for our side to win, to break the Wall Street/Teahadist coalition, is now or then. I am inclined toward having the fight over the debt ceiling. This skirmish has brought a lot of Republican intentions into the open and people do not seem to like what they have seen. For them to engage in assholish brinksmanship again in a month should be a bridge too far. YMMV.

  79. 79
    licensed to kill time says:

    CNN reporting a deal has been reached, Pres Obama to speak within 10 minutes.

  80. 80
    JAHILL10 says:

    @Bob Loblaw: I am waiting to hear your strategy for victory

  81. 81
    Keith G says:

    @Mnemosyne: I am of a mind that the all out cage match is going to happen at some point. I know some of y’all feel that the forces of darkness will tire and move on. I do not.

    I am a bit put off by your preachy “…we’d still have a government shutdown, but you’d feel better about it?”, attitude. I would feel better if the GOP had laid down and died in 2009 like so many of my Progressive friends thought.

    But no. The Zombie Repugs don’t give up and don’t go away. We are soon going to have this same fight all over, but maybe on even less favorable ground.

  82. 82
    Stillwater says:

    @JAHILL10: I think we are dealing with a bunch of kamikaze nuts who are willing to burn the whole country down

    The amazing thing is that if the GOP were to burn down it all down so bad that runothemill conservatives were economically crushed by what they did, those suffering conservatives would still vote GOP as the only party to lead the country back to glory.

  83. 83
    Martin says:

    From TPM:

    Part of the deal includes a floor vote in the Senate to defund Planned Parenthood, Rep. Jack Kingston (R-GA) tells reporters.

    The GOP lost this. $39B in cuts, which is considerably less than the $100B that the GOP started from, and at least the defunding of Planned Parenthood is out of the deal. No word on the other bits.

  84. 84
    Buck says:

    @Stillwater: “…those suffering conservatives would still vote GOP as the only party to lead the country back to glory.”

    You got that right!

  85. 85
    JAHILL10 says:

    @Stillwater: The good news is the independents are souring on this kind of stunt-loving freakish behavior. Boehner is such a weak leader that there will be more of this dissonance between what the wingnuts think is important and what the rest of the country thinks is important. They will keep the 27%ers but that is all they will have. The next couple of years are going to be no fun at all, but I can’t help but think we are watching the slow motion dissolution of the modern Republican party.

  86. 86
    FlipYrWhig says:

    IMHO if I were a Democratic Congressperson I’d never in a fucking million years vote for whatever this comes out to be. The advantage of Boehner getting his ducks in a row is that the, the Republicans, now own it. As a Democratic Congressman I’d take that and make it into a crude iron cudgel and start swinging it. “Hide your kids, hide your wife, hide your husbands, because they’re cuttin’ everybody up in here. Run tell that.” I would triangulate against Obama something fierce. “He made a deal, but I don’t support it.” It’d be a free shot, because the deal doesn’t need their votes! I hope they play it that way.

  87. 87
    Corner Stone says:

    Cave.

  88. 88
    Bob Loblaw says:

    @Martin:

    No, you’re wrong.

    We’ve been over this. The comparison is either between 39 billion and 60 billion, or it’s between 79 billion and 100 billion.

    It is not between 39 billion and 100 billion. If the deal actually comes together, the Republicans will have gotten much more than half of their election goal.

  89. 89
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Keith G:

    I am of a mind that the all out cage match is going to happen at some point. I know some of y’all feel that the forces of darkness will tire and move on. I do not.

    Neither do I but, in the meantime, people need food stamps. Women need contraception and prenatal care. Federal employees have to get paid. Etc.

    The choice that the Republicans are giving us is to help them collapse everything or try to keep the country going. I’m not yet at the point where I’m willing to say, “Fuck it, let ’em burn it down if they want.”

    I am a bit put off by your preachy “…we’d still have a government shutdown, but you’d feel better about it?”, attitude.

    Your original post sounded like you were saying there would be no government shutdown if only the Democrats would tell the Republicans to pound sand. That assumes that the Republicans don’t really want to grind everything to a standstill, that what they’re doing is all a bluff and if we just call them on it, they’ll back down.

    I think the Republicans are much too far gone for that. I doubt that this “deal” that’s being announced is actually going to pass the House, not without a whole lot of Democratic votes, because the House teabaggers will dig their heels in even more and start talking about how Boehner is a RINO. At this point, they’re fucking insane and can’t be reasoned with.

    To bring it back to the original post, I think Dennis is right to compare this to the events that led to the Civil War, with one side compromising to try and hold everything together while the other one keeps pushing harder and harder to get everything they want. I honestly don’t know where we go from here, but I’m very afraid that the country is completely ungovernable at this point since we have an entire house of Congress that’s incapable of doing its job.

  90. 90
    Narcissus says:

    The Tea Party lost this, but the GOP won. Boehner gets his leadership chops and Harry Reid is still an abject pussy.

  91. 91
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Martin:

    $39B in cuts, which is considerably less than the $100B that the GOP started from

    Depends on how you count it, of course, whether it’s annualized or all that.

  92. 92
    Corner Stone says:

    Man, these motherfuckers are going to keep bringing it! They will not stop!
    Jeebus fucking christ! They are going to do this again and again!!

  93. 93
    Buck says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Yep. Pretty much.

  94. 94
    Corner Stone says:

    We just got analized. There isn’t any other way to describe this.
    Get ready for more of the same.

  95. 95
    Corner Stone says:

    Fuck you Harry Reid.

  96. 96
    Origuy says:

    Via Steve Benen, Rush Limbaugh compared Obama to Jefferson Davis.

  97. 97
    Stillwater says:

    @Mnemosyne: I’m very afraid that the country is completely ungovernable at this point since we have an entire house of Congress that’s incapable of doing its job completely insane.

  98. 98
    Stillwater says:

    deleeshun

  99. 99
    Bob Loblaw says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    No, no, the President gets to triangulate against them. Not the other way around. It’s not an equal partnership.

    @JAHILL10:

    In a strictly binary system, the only way to combat a radical force is with an equal but opposite radical counterforce.

    Waiting for the GOP to burn itself out isn’t going to work when they hold 50% of the top ballot slots for every major race in the country. The election of Rick Snyder in Michigan should make this abundantly clear. There is no such thing as a “good Republican.” They need to be actively stigmatized.

  100. 100
    Mike M says:

    Unfortunately, the Democrats ceded the argument to the Republicans that cuts needed to happen now, now, now. It was just a matter of how much, and even there, Democrats lost further ground compared to the Republicans opening bid. Talk of doing anything to help the unemployed has gone completely out the window (not that there ever were serious proposals from either side).

    Republicans, like the conservatives in the UK, are promoting this idea of “expansionary fiscal austerity” — more supply side voodoo economics. Cut government expenditures and payroll, and magically the private sector goes to work hiring people and boom times return. It doesn’t matter that the evidence shows that if an economy is already operating below its productive capacity, the austerity measures will just slow growth and raise unemployment. Nevertheless, conservatives take it as an article of faith, and cable news reporters, who are not on camera because of their math skills, are hard pressed to challenge them, if they are not already cheering their “courage” and “seriousness”.

    Unfortunately, I think this episode and Ryan’s budget proposal have managed to push the Overton window pretty far to the right. The Republicans over played their hand with Planned Parenthood, but I’m not sure how much it will cost them going into the next two major battles: the debt ceiling and the 2012 budget. With Democrats inclined by their nature to compromise, the American people may be headed for some very hard times.

  101. 101
    Yutsano says:

    @Martin: Well at least I’ll get paid to work on Monday.

    @Stillwater: Heh. I was just about to gently mock you for repeating yourself, but with STYLE.

  102. 102
    Stillwater says:

    @Corner Stone: They are going to do this again and again!!

    I bet the Democratic strategists on the hill are working it all out as we speak: “We got to bring a bigger knife to the gunfight, boys.”

  103. 103
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Stillwater: And the voters would punish the Democrats for it.

    I trust we all saw the polls this week that had independents and Democrats plumping for ‘compromise, and keep working’ over ‘no compromise, even if it means a shutdown’ by roughly 2-1 or so.

    “Elect better Democrats” is one thing; “Better Democrats, period” and “Fewer independents in love with the idea of compromise” may be more to the point.

  104. 104
    Corner Stone says:

    @Stillwater:

    “We got to bring a -bigger- butter knife to the gunfight, boys.”

  105. 105
    bkny says:

    @Mike M: yep … it’s made the catfood commission appear utterly reasonable.

  106. 106
    Keith G says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    That assumes that the Republicans don’t really want to grind everything to a standstill, that what they’re doing is all a bluff and if we just call them on it, they’ll back down

    So as long as the GOP plays Al Pacino’s Scareface, how much cutting and gutting of our social fabric is too much? Or is there ever a too much, cuz gosh we can’t have a shut down.

  107. 107
    Marc says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    But this doesn’t compare with the purity brigade – who alternate between magical thinking about the powers of Obama and sneering that he’s all talk and no action.

  108. 108
    Corner Stone says:

    @bkny: Fucking shocking how that worked, what?

  109. 109
    Corner Stone says:

    Oooo, “painful” ? Fuck you man. You fucking multi-millionaire mofo.

  110. 110
    General Stuck says:

    @Cerberus:

    I don’t care what you think, Man. It is impossible to “burn” myself when addressing miscreant cornerstone, man.

    Where do you people crawl out of?

  111. 111
    Corner Stone says:

    Ezra – $79B less due to agreed cuts.

  112. 112
    General Stuck says:

    @Stillwater: @Corner Stone:

    So we found one of your sockpockets CS, It’s stillwater. I already guessed it. But this PROVES it beyond all doubt.

  113. 113
    General Stuck says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Ratfucker

  114. 114
    Davis X. Machina says:

    Whole lot of “Vox populi, vox Dei, sed valde oportet mecum convenīre” democracy out there.

    (“The voice of the people is the voice of God, but it had bloody well better agree with me.”)

  115. 115

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    the problem is, that there are too many “granteds” where the dems aren’t even considering cutting defense as an example.

    then of course, the case needs to be made for all the largesse that the rich get from the government, so people who aren’t rich, but buy the rhetoric that it is unfair to hold wealth against the wealthy, understand that the rich get more from the government, and therefore, should pay more.

    it is the all encompassing failure of the american experiment, that we can’t explain to poor people, why rich people, owe more taxes than they do.

  116. 116
    Stillwater says:

    @Yutsano: I was just about to gently mock you for repeating yourself, but with STYLE.

    I’d like to think the only type of mockery my comments and double posts deserve is of the stylish variety. Others seem to not agree so much.

  117. 117
    NR says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I am inclined toward having the fight over the debt ceiling.

    Yeah. That’ll happen. Because this current crop of Dems have proven themselves SO willing to fight the Republicans so far….

  118. 118
    Calouste says:

    @Origuy:

    Comparing someone to Jefferson Davis is a compliment on AM hate radio, is it?

  119. 119
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    I trust we all saw the polls this week that had independents and Democrats plumping for ‘compromise, and keep working’ over ‘no compromise, even if it means a shutdown’ by roughly 2-1 or so.

    Yup. They basically did the Wisconsin public-sector union gambit of agreeing to the cuts and fighting over everything that was not cuts, in order for the debate to unfold as “We’re willing to compromise and sacrifice, and they’re not.” What’s sad is that that probably _is_ a more palatable strategy than the “Fuck you right back” strategy… because Democratic and independent voters won’t stand behind you if you say “Fuck you right back,” because they still have a romantic idea about constructive, hard-fought compromise.

    I’m not sure Fuck You Right Back actually becomes a winning hand. Sure would feel nice, though.

    And I’ll reiterate what I said before. If I were a Democrat in the Congress, I wouldn’t leave a single fingerprint on this stinker. I would demagogue against it for all I was worth, and encourage Democratic congressional challengers to do the same. They don’t need their votes to pass it. Don’t give ’em up for free.

  120. 120
    Bob Loblaw says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    There are two reasons for a political party to exist:

    1. Organizational and educational structure under a recognized, marketable brand.

    2. Tool for personal enrichment.

    I see an awful lot of #2 and a real lack of #1 from the modern Democratic Party.

  121. 121
    Stillwater says:

    @General Stuck: I wrote ‘deleeshun’. Then I wrote, uhhh, I mean Corner wrote something about butter knives. Wtf you talking bout Allan?

  122. 122
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @FlipYrWhig: If I were Pelosi, I’d line up enough of her people to counteract whomever bails from the tea party, plus one, and hand enough of them over to Boehner to pass the CR by a single vote. She’s got a pretty good whip operation, and there are a lot of people in safe seats who will be happy to do her a favor.

    Sometimes it’s not the vote count that counts, but who votes that counts.

  123. 123
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Keith G:

    Or is there ever a too much, cuz gosh we can’t have a shut down.

    Given that the Republicans tried to defund Planned Parenthood and the EPA and the Democrats said, “Fuck off,” I think we’re at “too much” right now. It seems to be dimly dawning on some Republicans, too — apparently even Michele Bachmann is suddenly saying they should take the deal without those riders.

  124. 124
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal: I cannot really disagree with that.

    @NR: I was not making a prediction.

  125. 125
    NR says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    because Democratic and independent voters won’t stand behind you if you say “Fuck you right back,”

    Fuck the polls. We saw in the last election that independent voters won’t stand behind you when you’re all compromise, all the time. Actual election results mean something. Polls don’t.

    Also, too, those polls don’t even touch the fact that compromise damages your party. Every time you pursue a strategy of compromise, you are sending the message that your own party’s positions are something to run away from and the other party’s positions are something to embrace. The long-term damage it does is incalculable.

  126. 126
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    Didn’t she do that with some House bill during the Bush years when the Democrats were the minority? Only deliver exactly enough Democratic votes to get it passed by one?

  127. 127
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @NR: Democrats supported compromise over shutdown by a larger margin than independents in one of those polls.

    Why would I jump off the cliff if my own voters won’t hold my hand?

    The old ‘if the followers lead, the leaders will follow’ doesn’t work under those circumstances…

  128. 128
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Mnemosyne: This is a money bill — it’s got to start in Boehner’s House. If you hand him the votes to pass it, when he’s supposed to have the majority, but came up short, you’re basically tatooing ‘Eunuch’ on his forehead for him. By Christmas, there’ll be another Speaker.

  129. 129
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @NR: Well, your sense of the psychology appears to be wrong, because that’s not what the people whose views you’re speculating upon _actually say_ when asked about it. More of them say they want compromise. Fewer of them see it your way. We have to get actual votes out of actual people, even–especially–the stupid and cowardly ones who prefer compromising to going down swinging. That’s pretty much “the base,” sad to say.

  130. 130
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @General Stuck: The scourge of sockpuppets himself sockpuppets? Say it ain’t so, CoSto!

  131. 131
    General Stuck says:

    @Stillwater:

    It means you and “corner” crawl in the same sewer. More or less. That, and I don’t like you and am in a very pissed off mood right now. Wanna blog fight?

  132. 132

    This will cost somewhere around $39B in jobs, that is a couple. Even if the payroll is only 1/2 of that, $19.5B, it is still a couple jobs. That’s one payoff.

    While I’ll still do my little bit for OR Democrats, I have no faith in the mainline Party, or the so-called Liberals. Elect better Democrats? Read the comments here and tell me just exactly how anyone proposes to do such a thing. There is always reality, but you have to understand that this reality is the one we created over the last 30 plus years. You think this sucks? Keep on with the same track for a few more years…decades…and see where you’re left. Just keep on drifting right out of reality’s sake. I’m damn unsure why I keep bothering to give a damn – given “reality.”

  133. 133
    General Stuck says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    You gotta give the miscreants a little taste of their own medicine now and then, my granny used to say. I think she was talking about me at the time, but it is fairly universal imo.

  134. 134
    Corner Stone says:

    @FlipYrWhig: I don’t SP. I’m not shy, and I don’t give a shit if bitches like you an Stuck agree with me.

  135. 135
    WhipYrFlig says:

    @Corner Stone: You should care more about agreeing with FlipYrWhig, a stranger I have never met before but whose opinions and arguments I find strangely compelling.

  136. 136
    PIGL says:

    @Mnemosyne: I think the electorate has to be shown: if you continue to vote Republican, this is the best that you will get. If you vote for Democratic Party, you will get something much better. Until that is made clear, your country is one way ticket down. So yes, I think the painful consequences of a shutdown would be better than continual step by step surrender.

    But hey, don’yt save yourselves on my account. The dissolution of the USA is very much in Canada’s interests.

  137. 137
    FlipYrWhig says:

    Aw, WordPress is eating my lame sockpuppeting joke.

  138. 138
    dww44 says:

    @Bob Loblaw: This, FTW. And I am pasting that to my favorites file somewhere and I am going to use this on that cousin (female no less) who called me un-american yesterday because I shot down her little past-its-sell-by-date email forward about the Muslim Ramadan holiday taking precendence over Labor Day at a Tyson’s Chicken plant in Tennesee.

    The sheer irony of the conservative talk radio and Fox listeners screaming about Muslims getting a religious holiday and forcing out the sacrosanct labor day has not yet occurred to her. I smile just thinking about it. Anyways, I can’t wait to deploy your words to help my arguments. Thanks.

  139. 139

    If you vote for Democratic Party, you will get something much better. Until that is made clear, your country is one way ticket down.

    Heh, well the boat is a bit slower – but it’s headed the same direction. “Any Democrat is better,” may be true, but sort of in the manner that sawing your hand off is better than sawing off your head. You nhave the electorate that you have and I don’t know what it would take to get through to them. Maybe Speaker Ryan, Leader Paul, and President – er – Bachman or Trump? Would the results of that experiment be enough? Maybe, but undoing that chaos would be a job – and probably end up farther that direction than currently…

  140. 140
    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN) says:

    @Keith G:

    So as long as the GOP plays Al Pacino’s Scareface, how much cutting and gutting of our social fabric is too much? Or is there ever a too much, cuz gosh we can’t have a shut down.

    Roughly, you stop compromising when the deal you can get is worse than letting whatever the threat is happening. All of the game theory stuff about iterated playings, and how you have to act tough in order to get a better deal the next time has a fatal assumption in this case: that you are dealing with a rational opponent that has essentially the same payout structure that you do.

    That doesn’t work here, because the Republicans don’t have the same payout structure. In game theory terms, the Democrats are playing Chicken. The Republicans aren’t, because they don’t think that mutual defection is the worst possible outcome. That difference means that the entire game theory idea of how to conduct iterated negotiations goes out the window. It’s the wrong model.

    How do you negotiate with a bunch of suicide bombers? In the case of al Qaeda, you don’t. You call in some combination of law enforcement and the military and just try to eliminate them as a counterparty. No negotiations. Unfortunately, the military and law enforcement aren’t options for the Democrats to call in here. They actually have to negotiate.

    You have several choices. The strategy you are advocating only works if you think the GOP is bluffing and would give in if you took them to the brink. I, for one, don’t think that’s true; they’re not bluffing. They really would shut down the government, or refuse to raise the debt ceiling rather than compromise much.

    The second choice is to say the hell with it, and also refuse to compromise. This is where the problem of misaligned payout strategies comes into play. Over a single iteration, this is the worst possible outcome for us. We get to witness all of the damage that can be caused by a government shutdown, or whatever situation we’re in. We think that that’s terrible. They don’t. They think that that’s a perfectly acceptable outcome.

    The third choice is to compromise. Figure out what you can give up that isn’t as damaging as the cost of a crash. Don’t worry about the next iteration, because the outcome of this one, no matter what the outcome is, isn’t likely to change the definitions of success on the other side. Figure out where the line is, and just plan to stop as far away from it as you can, but if you don’t reach it, take the deal.

    Yes, this means that we’re going to have to give up more when time comes to raise the debt ceiling. The alternative is to pay the price of a government shutdown *and* the catastrophe of not raising the debt ceiling. Those are the choices. It’s very difficult being the only adult in the room with a band of whining two-year olds.

  141. 141
    NR says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Well, your sense of the psychology appears to be wrong, because that’s not what the people whose views you’re speculating upon actually say when asked about it. More of them say they want compromise.

    Never, ever, ever listen to what people say. Watch what they DO.

    It doesn’t matter if people say they want compromise when asked by a pollster, when they then go out and vote for the party that refused to compromise on anything for the last two years.

    Compromising gets you points in the polls. Standing firm to principles gets you actual votes. Guess which one actually matters?

  142. 142
    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN) says:

    @NR:

    It doesn’t matter if people say they want compromise when asked by a pollster, when they then go out and vote for the party that refused to compromise on anything for the last two years.

    Except that’s not what happened last November. The Democrats got more votes than is usual for a midterm election. There’s no evidence that the positions they took cost them votes. What happened is that the Republicans managed to mobilize a lot of crazy nut jobs so that they got a *lot* more votes than is typical for a midterm.

    Mostly, it just proved that crazy people are easy to motivate if you play to their insanities. It did not prove that the Democrats would have gotten more votes by being intransigent. That is particularly true given that the Blue Dogs would have torpedoed any serious attempt to stand firm.

    People keep saying what a weak leader Boehner is because he can’t control his caucus. I don’t know if you noticed, but Nancy Pelosi had the same problem. She solved it by being willing to settle for what she could get them to go along with. It was a different dynamic, since Pelosi’s problems were with defectors in the middle rather than that the extreme. That allowed her to compromise and get things done, an option Boehner doesn’t have. I do think that she was a much more effective leader than Boehner is, but she couldn’t get her whole caucus to go along with her ideas, either.

  143. 143
    gwangung says:

    The second choice is to say the hell with it, and also refuse to compromise. This is where the problem of misaligned payout strategies comes into play. Over a single iteration, this is the worst possible outcome for us. We get to witness all of the damage that can be caused by a government shutdown, or whatever situation we’re in. We think that that’s terrible. They don’t. They think that that’s a perfectly acceptable outcome.

    I’m wondering if the aftermath of a shutdown would be compromises by the Democrats that would be even worse and more extreme than what’s being seen now. Because, a shutdown and resulting pain is still a win for the Tea Party.

  144. 144
    Corner Stone says:

    @gwangung: Yeah, the fear of the unknown.
    Or more simply, fear.

  145. 145
    gwangung says:

    @Corner Stone: I’m assuming you have a viable game plan to handle a shutdown positively.

  146. 146
    Corner Stone says:

    @gwangung: Yep.

  147. 147
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @NR:

    It doesn’t matter if people say they want compromise when asked by a pollster, when they then go out and vote for the party that refused to compromise on anything for the last two years.

    Except that the key to the whole Republican rhetorical strategy in ’09 and ’10 was to say that Democrats weren’t allowing Republicans to have any input. We know that’s bullshit. But it worked on just enough people. In other words, Republicans scored points for saying _Democrats_ were too uncompromising. Mindboggling, ain’t it?

  148. 148
    Corner Stone says:

    Oh noes!!! Mister Boehner gonna shut us down!

  149. 149
    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN) says:

    @Corner Stone: I’m betting it’s not your paycheck that’s on the line here.

  150. 150
    gwangung says:

    @Corner Stone: I’m not as certain as you.

  151. 151
    Corner Stone says:

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): And? You want we should give in if they threaten to finally put your kitten to rest with some peace and dignity?

  152. 152
    Corner Stone says:

    @gwangung: Well then I guess we should just keep giving them what they want, eh?

  153. 153
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Corner Stone: You’re a fucking pustule to bring a guy’s sick cat into it.

  154. 154
    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN) says:

    @FlipYrWhig: Eh, I can take it. Said sick cat is running around pretty happily these days. Thanks to Anne Laurie’s suggestion of an air filter, I even think he’s stopped overgrooming and his fur is growing back. Today I opened up a bunch of windows, and he’s been making some pretty impressive jumps around the room for a cat with only one front leg to land on.

    Corner Stone can bite me.

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