A couple of points about seriousness:
- When the Obama Administration was serious about healthcare reform, they put up with months of Senatorial prima donna horseshit (see Baucus, Max). They cajoled, suffered fools, made significant compromises and risked alienating their base to get HCR passed. That’s what being serious about a piece of legislation looks like. When Ryan and Boehner do a tenth of what Obama, Pelosi and Reid did for HCR, perhaps I’ll consider them serious, too.
- The insistent drumbeat for Democrats to debate and offer counterproposals to Ryan’s bill ignores the success that Democrats had last time Republicans tried a similar trick. Let’s take a trip in the wayback machine (via Atrios):
When Bush announced his Social Security plan last year, Pelosi told House Democrats they could never beat him in a straight-ahead, policy-against-policy debate because he had the megaphone of the presidency and was just coming off re-election. So the Democrats would thunderously attack Bush and argue there was no Social Security crisis and therefore no need for them to put out their own proposal. Some members were leery, concerned that Pelosi would make the Democrats look like the Party of No. As the spring of 2005 wore on, some pestered her every week, asking when they were going to release a rival plan. “Never. Is never good enough for you?” Pelosi defiantly said to one member. When Florida Democrat Robert Wexler publicly suggested raising Social Security taxes as the solution, Pelosi immediately chewed him out over the phone. Only one other Democrat signed on to his plan.
There is no public outcry to voucherize Medicare, it’s a sure political loser, and it will die a short and quiet crib death without any Democratic intervention in the form of a counter-proposal.
- As for the suggestion that Obama should enagage on Ryan’s bill or other issues of the day (Ezra Klein’s recent handwringing is a good example), I see this as little more than a wish from beltway journalists for some drama. Anyone who takes Boehner and the rest of the House leadership at their word should understand full well that House Republicans have no interest in doing anything Obama suggests. In the end, they will shut down government, have all their legislation killed in the Senate, and generally look like the do-nothings that they are, no matter what Obama does.
One fundamental characteristic of serious people is that they pay attention to what’s important. Ryan’s bill isn’t, no matter how many hand jobs Morning Joe gives him under the desk.
Wag
More of this, please!
Poopyman
Amen. Had Mornin’ Joe with Willie the Geist on the kitchen TV this AM. Mercifully w/o sound, but the banners across the bottom plus the guests I could ID were bad enough that I turned the whole thing off.
Seriously? “White House fails to find agreement in budget impasse?”
EconWatcher
Haven’t the Republicans made a fatal mistake?
I don’t follow the election minutiae as closely as some people on this site, but my impression was that a big factor in the 2010 elections was successful scaremongering that health-care reform would end up cutting Medicare. Amazing that Republicans could successfully paint themselves as the defenders of Medicare, but my impression was that they pulled that off.
What happens to those votes from the elderly now that the mask is off?
OzoneR
Has there ever been a President elected under more delusions of gradeur than Obama?
Maybe FDR since some of his policies we now praise to the high heavens weren’t enough for Huey Long.
Ezra says this;
The cap and trade plan that died in a Democratic congress in 2009? In his response to the energy plan, Ezra wrote this
Neither will pounding the pavement for a policy that will never see the light of day because it has already died. I mean let’s start being realistic. What does he think will happen if the President gave a barn burner speech endorsing cap and trade in the midst of high gas prices when utility companies like Con Edison are hiking rates over 12 percent because of federal mandates? Are people just going to change their minds en mass? i mean the President can’t even get networks to pay attention to him unless he does his speech before or after Dancing With The Stars.
Maybe the one thing I fault Obama for is creating some fantasy world for the left to live in.
someguy
Thanks for the reassurances. It’s good to remember that the Republicans are shooting themselves in the face with talk of social security or medicare reform. The public won’t stand for it and they know it.
Jinchi
Only if the Democrats take the other side of the issue. If Democrats offer to meet them halfway, they’ll have lost the advantage.
MikeTheZ
OT- Looking at the WI Supreme Court data. All the remaining precincts are in places where Kloppenburg holds a lead (sometimes a significant one). This could end well.
Hawes
The one thing Obama has promised in the past, and Ryan’s bill gives him an opportunity to exploit, is the idea of raising taxes on the rich. That HAS to be a central campaign issue going into 2012. It’s popular, it’s good for long term deficits and it highlights how the GOP wants to cut benefits for people like you and me to give tax cuts to Wall Street bankers.
Win on politics, win on policy.
Suck It Up!
@OzoneR:
Nope. That blame goes to other liberal bloggers who tell their readers that Obama can get anything he wants if only he wanted it.
MattF
I agree that the commentariat, whether left, right, or indescribable (e.g., Richard Cohen) always yearns for narrative and drama– their motto is “Let’s you and him fight!” Republicans have evolved a set of political tactics that fits this framework, but there’s no law of nature that requires Democrats to go along.
JPL
Kessler fact checked Ryan’s numbers and guess what they don’t work. link
loretta
As a Medicare specialist (seriously), I would like to fix the record of some misinformation perpetrated on this blog. First off, “Medicare” was not cut $500B in the ACA, but rather “Medicare Advantage” was cut $500B. Thus, the Republican ads that state that “Medicare” was cut is false. They assume nobody knows the difference between MA and original Medicare.
Now, there are estimates that 20-30% of Medicare beneficiaries are in an advantage program. The way the cuts will be implemented is to have higher cost-sharing by the members, higher max out-of-pocket levels, trim some of the benefits (dental, vision, etc.) and in the corporate level, trim the fat, cut payments to providers, etc. The law is 100s of pages long and nobody has even completely parsed it yet.
Even with the $500B in cuts (if the ACA remains law over the next decade), the advantage plan is still better than original Medicare in terms of costs for seniors, especially those who live in areas where the networks are strong. In rural areas, not so much.
Second, I absolutely agree from being in the trenches of seniors, who vote, and others in the medical insurance business, that privatizing Medicare across the board is a non-starter. The reason is, the Advantage programs are FUNDED by Medicare premiums and a pro-rated cost for each member. The advantage plans get about $800-$1000 *per month* for each member. There is no incentive, whatsoever, to privatize senior health and take on the entire burden via premiums. You could not charge enough for this insurance – it would be unaffordable without the huge risk pool and continuous stream of money.
It’s completely a farce and the insurance companies are NOT even interested. The entire idea is pure fantasy. The private insurance companies want, at most, the ability to create products to supplement health insurance for all ages, not take on the burden of senior health. No effing way.
agrippa
Ryan’s bill is an affectation. It will go nowhere. The Democrats need not do very much of anything. Ryan is a comedian.
I have scant respect for the political class – the pros and the commentariat – as I think most of them have very little political or moral courage ( they want to keep their job). I do think that the “left” ( there is no meaningful left in the USA) going after Obama is black comedy. Obama is one of the very few people in Washington with the sense to get out of a shower of rain.
Omnes Omnibus
@JPL: Imagine my failure to be surprised.
Emma
I have given up American media because of this desperate need to create drama. Even people who should know better want a dramatic narrative with the good guys and the bad guys and the whole shootout thing. Getting things done just isn’t good enough for them.
cleek
i think what you’re having trouble with is that your definition, the typical definition, of “serious” is not the same definition that is used in DC.
when they say “serious” it means “will upset voters but pleases Big Daddy Republicans”. when you say “serious” it means “addresses the issue”. apples v. oranges.
jrg
Any legislation that doesn’t pretend NPR funding makes up 25% of the budget is serious. That’s because we are a country of complete fucking morons.
cleek
@OzoneR:
i have no idea what this means.
Percysowner
I totally respect what Obama has achieved. He passed HCR, he revoked DADT, he got the stimulus through and stopped, or at least slowed down, a looming Depression. All this with 60 votes in the the Senate, some of whom had to have their egos stroked in order to get them to act like actual Democrats.
My only problem with Obama, is that he inherited an an office with powers that are too broad and that encroach on our civil liberties and he has done little to change that situation. But that is another discussion for another day.
gypsy howell
I want to believe you that this whole shitstink will go nowhere, but experience tells me Obama will want to “engage” by offering up a compromise, which, I imagine, will look startlingly like the catfood commission recommendations.
Sure would love to be wrong on this.
Suck It Up!
You make some excellent points. A whole lot of handwringing going on yesterday.
Baud
Excellent post. I usually like Ezra’s stuff, but he has been disappointing on this.
@Hawes: I agree.
Poopyman
@cleek: Cleek is channeling Digby:
The bulk of her post is about how the Ryan affair opens the door for Simpson and Bowles — remember them? — to regain currency.
Go read.
ETA: I see @gypsy howell: sussed it as well.
cleek
@gypsy howell:
at this point, the Cat Food Commission’s recommendations do look a lot better than the alternative. suddenly a lot of politicians are feeling forced into picking one or the other. funny how that worked out.
gotta give the GOP credit for playing the game as well as they do.
@Poopyman: (looks like i’m doing it again. great minds, yadayadayada…)
Emma
Gypsy Howell: One small point. There were no “catfood commission recommendation.” There were two members of the commission that decided to leak a possible plan which was so contentious that the other members would not sign on to it.
And more to the point, the President is not obliged to accept the recommendations of any commission.
4tehlulz
Ryan’s bill shows how the radicals intend to remake America after pushing it over a cliff:
May 16 is going to be an interesting day.
Poopyman
@Emma: That is a small point, and that small point has been conveniently disappeared by the media. Therefore their non-official (and actually illegitimate) paper has become the de facto commission finding.
Litlebritdifrnt
@MikeTheZ:
I was just looking at that too, and by my calculations only 1 of the 34 precincts that are not reporting yet are favoring Prosser. Keeping fingers crossed here.
kay
@JPL:
Any news personality who endorsed this yesterday is a hack, by definition.
Not one of them had a chance to read or understand it. Ryan could have invented a series of numbers and plugged them into spaces. They had no idea yesterday if any of it made sense or was even accurate.
That should be a measure of credibility, going forward.
Punchy
OT: I’m sure what’s needed here is less regulation.
Must be great for all those campers in the state park to be filling their water bottles with sewage river water.
JPL
@Omnes Omnibus: My surprise is that the Post let Kessler’s piece be linked to from the front page.
kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
What an exciting race! When I went to bed she was way the hell up.
Amazing turnout and energy for a state judicial race, and congrats on the county exec trouncing.
I would not like to be a bd of elections member in Wisconsin this morning :)
gypsy howell
@Emma:
A technicality. Obama set up the commission and he picked the people who were on it — you don’t think he’ll take their unofficial recommendations? I do.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
i really would love to know why cutting military spending is off the table for both parties. if we spent as much as russia,china, u.k., france, and germany, the 2-6 on the list of nations that spend the most, we would be cutting defense by 350 billion dollars per year.
remind everyone how ronald reagan ratcheted up defense spending, by claiming that we were outmanned outgunned and outspent by the soviets.
tell folks, reagan’s principle was correct, our military spending should be a reflection of what the rest of the world spends.
350 billion is a lot of medicare,education,infrastructure and tax cuts…
not that we shouldn’t at least get the tax code to where the rich and the corporate pay their share, but at least the austerity issue would be sleeping in the right bed.
Culture of Truth
I would add, if Ryan were ‘serious’ about the debt, he would not propose slashing taxes for the well-off. It is ideological claptrap. ‘Johnny Canal’ for the country club set.
Emma
Gypsy howell: I don’t. We’ll see.
Poopyman: I know. But the thing is, I refuse to play by the MSM rules. Truth is truth.
Face
I want what you’re smoking. You mean “50% of the public wont stand for it….”, as we know the other 50% will do whatever their dear leaders tell them to stand for, regardless of self-preservation or common sense.
OzoneR
@cleek:
It means too many thought he could do things he was never going to be able to do.
You got a black man with a weird name elected in a recently historically right wing country where a third of people think he’s a Manchurian Candidate and a significant number of those who don’t are desperate to look “fair” and “moderate”
But somehow he was going to rally the entire nation behind single payer healthcare, cap and trade, the Employee Free Choice Act, ending all wars, dismantling Wall Street and taxing the rich till they bleed?
Bullsmith
Screaming “the country’s broke!”, they ignore the debt and find ways to fund yet more top-rate tax cuts. Sure that’s “serious”, just like cancer is serious.
Omnes Omnibus
@kay: I am reasonably hopefully that Kloppenburg will get the nod. Given the precinct that that have not reported, her chances are good. The recount is inevitable, of course. In Dane County, the only surprise was Mayor Dave being defeated. I voted for him, but, in my mind, it was the one toss up (well, there was the judicial election for a judge who ruled against me on something recently, but is otherwise a good judge).
@gypsy howell: Sometimes you create a commission and put inconvenient people on it in order to shut them up. If you do that, you generally have no intention of doing anything with the commissions report other than putting it on a shelf. To me, that is what this commission has always seemed to be.
jibeaux
@MikeTheZ:
What site are you looking at?
OzoneR
@gypsy howell:
He picked a third of the people who were on it, Congress picked the rest.
why because he picked a third of them? It really didn’t matter if he did or not since Congress would have to vote on them and they don’t do anything the President wants anyway.
Chris
@Jinchi:
This.
OzoneR
Didn’t the President speak yesterday publicly and blast Republicans for playing games?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12975994
Where is Obama?
Punchy
Looks like pharmacists in Illinois can get back to not doing their jobs. This is maddening. If I were to claim I couldn’t do my job due to “religious” whatever, I’d be fired in less than a day.
I await the day a pharmacist withholds meds for a child due to “autism concerns”.
kay
@<a href="#comment-2515406Omnes Omnibus:
I’m glad. I followed the race here last night. The commentary was very entertaining.
The unofficial motto of the bd of elections here is “anyone, by five”.
A close race is the worst result, because they take the accusations of cheating or bias (by both sides) personally.
spongeworthy
Nobody expects the Left to like austerity budgets. Nobody expects anything but determined opposition to Ryan’s plan. But to dismiss it as “not serious” when the guy and the plan’s supporters are putting there political lives on the line, that’s just lazy.
A less lazy response would be to offer a counterproposal, and not just “Cut Defense!” or “Tax the Rich”. Use real numbers. Balance the budget your way, how you’d do it.
Turns out that in order to fund the entitlement gap, we’d need to raise everybody’s taxes 88%. That work for you? Then come out and say it.
Cite: http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/04/04/to-contain-future-budget-us-must-raise-taxes-by-35-cut-entitlements-35/
Bulworth
Wow. Thanks for the wake-up call, Mistermix. I sure needed that. I was starting to do some serious hand-wringing.
When are we submitting our proposal to eliminate Medicare and Medicaid? Never. Is that soon enough for you?
Poopyman
BTW, Here’s an article headline on the WaPo front page. I kid you not:
Betcha didn’t know you could cut that much out of one year’s budget, didja?
Culture of Truth
putting there political lives on the line
Ryan is very serious – about his ideological agenda. The debt… not so much.
General Stuck
Good post mistermix. I agree that dems should not even engage on the absurdity of Ryan’s budget, and mocking and advertizing it to seniors and the rest of the country is all that is needed. It is a plan that only the 27 percenters could support, so in pol effect Ryan and the House wingnuts are triangulating with those folks. Couldn’t ask for a better arrangement of forces with your opponents.
And it continues to amaze and amuse that some on the left continue to tease out Obama treachery just around the corner on SS and medicare, at every opportunity. The only question is why.
Bruce S
This is an excellent “take a step back” perspective that helps me contain some of my Ryan obsessions – I was beginning to fear that I’d see his vacant stare burned into a tortilla or perhaps in some cumulous clouds if I looked to the sky long enough, the guy is bugging me so much. IMHO Ryan – for all of his apparent affability – at the ideological and political level, a sociopath.
He’s got a moral and empathetic screw loose. Apparently he’s an apostle of Ayn Rand’s gospel of self, told Glenn Beck “I love you,” and uses fake data – ridiculously fraudulent projections – to rationalize his plan to kill Medicare and drive up already large deficits. There’s something wrong with this guy – and something just as wrong with a media and punditry elite that treats him as anything other than a dishonest zealot to be interrogated and exposed.
http://titanicsailsatdawn.blogspot.com/2011/04/congressional-budge-office-rains-cold.html
Bulworth
@Poopyman: Yeah, I thought there was something extremely suspicious about that rather high number.
Ryan claims about 1.6 trillion or so from discretionary budget savings, a whopping 1.8 trillion from something called “mandatory other”, another trillion or so from interest, and the rest from eliminating ACA and Medicaid.
Chyron HR
@spongeworthy:
Oh, how terrible of us to come up with “lazy” responses to the party that thinks the greatest menace facing America is “Obongo’s” secret Kenyan birth certificate.
Bad leftists! Bad!
NobodySpecial
@spongeworthy: So, to use someone else’s line, when does the right lose interest in deficit porn and gain interest in cleaning up jism?
Jay C
@kay:
A recount in the WI SC race is pretty much a given, at this point: I think state law mandates a recount under a certain percentage – which a couple-of-hundred-vote margin (either way) out of 1.5MM cast certainly qualifies as.
I have the feeling that this is going to turn into another Franken-Coleman marathon of lawyers, hysterical PR, behind-the-scenes pressuring, vote-challenging, etc. that is going leave at least half of the citizenry bitterly unhappy; and the other half (probably unjustifiably) triumphalist.
IOW, politics as usual.
I think the judicial term at issue expires on July 31; so the inevitable circus has many more weeks to run.
BTW, I do think this is, on the face of it, important: for a challenger in an election like this to make a recount-level campaign out of what should have been a yawner of a race for the incumbent is a big deal. But unfortunately, the only thing that really matters is WHO is going to be putting on that black robe and taking their seat on the WISC bench for the next term. Everything else is triviality.
cleek
@OzoneR:
ah.
yes, fostering unrealistic expectations is a failure of all politicians. we wouldn’t vote for anyone who ran on a realistic platform. we all want to believe the impossible will happen.
delusions of grandeur is something else.
John Cole
Pelosi really is one of the only ones we have that has any brains and the balls to use them.
NobodySpecial
@John Cole: Most of the time.
Bulworth
It’s true that the Medicare proposal is a political loser but the Medicaid one may not be. Once Medicaid is understood as also affecting the elderly and not just the inner city poor (welfare) then that option will also lose appeal. But we still need someone to do the appropriate mocking on the TeeVee. On these matters, Obama is no Bill Clinton. So, I’m in favor of calling The Big Dawg out of retirement for a few media appearances.
rickstersherpa
@spongeworthy: No, the first thing to do is realize that the current urgent problem is not the deficit, but unemployment and lack of economic growth. A short term increase in the deficit, with commitment to spending restraint and moderate tax increases would solve the medium term deficit problem. Putting pressure and making changes to health care economy would lower health inflation for the whole economy and solve the long term deficit problem. Unfortunately, the latter action upsets the various monopolies, oligopolies, and guilds that control the American health care economy, and fighting them does require political “courage.”
I will let Paul Krugman finish the reply:
The Puzzle of Gullibility
Looking at the House budget proposal, in all its ludicrousness, makes me wonder about an enduring puzzle: the gullibility of so much of our pundit class.
In the time I’ve been writing for the Times, I’ve watched my colleagues in the commentariat, en masse, agree that:
George Bush is a nice, moderate guy, who will work in a bipartisan way.
George Bush is a heroic leader, who has risen to the occasion.
The case for invading Iraq is overwhelming; only a fool or a Frenchman could fail to be persuaded by Colin Powell.
John McCain is an independent-thinking maverick.
Paul Ryan is an honest, deeply serious thinker who really cares about the deficit.
The tax cut deal paved the way for a new phase of bipartisanship.
The Ryan plan sets a new standard of seriousness.
In each case, any educated citizen with internet access could quickly see overwhelming evidence that these things weren’t true. And you would think that people would learn something from the repeated failure of these kinds of consensus.
And yet LinusCharlie Brown keeps trying to kick that football, over and over again.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/06/the-puzzle-of-gullibility/
General Stuck
I think the only thing that will fix medicare is single payer. Dems are not going to let their golden pol goose be destroyed with privatization, and neither will the public with this highly popular program. So we are headed for a mega crisis with medicare in a decade or so, when the boomers are in full retirement, and like with SS, that is the only real time politicians are willing to go beyond posturing and bloviating on making fundamental changes to these political radioactive hot potatoes, and then usually at the last possible moment. Too soon to tell what will happen that far into the future. What is happening now is simply pol theater, meant as red meat to the faithful that are always clamoring for more of it.
NonyNony
@Jay C:
For most elections, I think this is true.
This one, on the other hand, should have Republican legislators in Wisconsin shitting their pants.
I mean seriously – this was a pro-forma reelection of a sitting Supreme Court justice. He led widely in what polls there were for a long time. And there’s no way his flapping his mouth off in the last month brought this race to a dead heat – this was about anger over Republican overreach.
Now will the Republicans in the legislature care? Will this cause them to chance course? I doubt it – mostly because as someone living through a similar bit of stupid in Ohio, I doubt that the Republicans in the WI legislature care if they get re-elected or not. They’re there to destroy as much of the state as they can, and they’re going to seize every opportunity to do it. So most of them aren’t looking at this as a long-term job – they’re looking at it as a stepping stone to whatever rewards they’ve been promised.
But, if any of those Republicans actually ARE interested in politics as a long-term career instead of as a short-term means to an end, the turnout and the closeness of this election alone should be a wake-up call to them that hitching themselves to Walker’s van of destruction is probably not a very good idea for their long-term livelihood.
JAHILL10
mistermix, you’re my hero! Thank you for saying this as clearly and concisely as you have.
xian
@spongeworthy: concern troll much?
jibeaux
@NobodySpecial:
Ooh, whose line is that? I am gonna be stealin’.
singfoom
@spongeworthy: I’m sorry, are you being serious? Cause “putting their political lives on the line” is fucking comedy gold.
You can hold whatever opinion you would like, but honestly any budget proposal that doesn’t touch defense and doesn’t raise taxes or rework how we tax capital gains and the giant fortunes of hedge fund managers is just messing around in the margins and not dealing with our actual problems.
Good day, sir concern troll.
Steve
I don’t understand much about politics. Mistermix and I seem to agree that the American people are not going to support the elimination of Medicare. But my reaction to Ryan’s plan would be “no one supports this, we need to tie the entire Republican Party to this because it’s the most potent political weapon we have.” His reaction is “no one supports this, so we can just ignore it and it will disappear.” I see others nodding along in the comments. I must be missing something.
NobodySpecial
@jibeaux: A charming fellow at this NSFW site. It’s in the rotating headers, along with some other good ones. Of course, I modified it, but it seems to be accurate.
Chris
@rickstersherpa:
And this is what passes for “the liberal media” in this country.
Steve
@singfoom: My favorite conceit of the DC media is the notion that it’s easy to propose tax increases on the rich or defense cuts, but it takes vast political courage to propose cuts to programs that benefit poor people. They honestly think poor and working-class people hold the reins of power in this country.
Bulworth
This is pretty key to understanding Media Villager “seriousness” and their entire orientation to politics.
Hawes
While I agree that Ryan’s odious bill won’t become law anytime soon, this is a clear expression of where the GOP stands in their priorities. It’s not what they ran on in 2010 (death panels and jobs) and it’s not what people want.
One word that I’d like to see the Democrats flog relentlessly in discussing anything the GOP does is “ideological”. Americans generally prefer pragmatists to ideologues. Obama is so pragmatic is raises my hackles at times, but that’s one reason why his personal favorables are higher than his job favorables.
GOP=Ideological
Over and over again, rinse and repeat.
joe from Lowell
Great post, mistermix. Props for bringing up that Pelosi story. Oh, how I love Nancy Pelosi! It’s good to see her protege taking over the DNC.
I predict we’re going to see Obama do that thing he does again – where something happens and everyone runs around with their hair on fire for a couple of weeks, and he keeps his cool and keeps his head down and plows ahead, all the while listening to people predict his doom unless he starts running around with his hair on fire, too. And then, 2-3 weeks later, the fire is out, everything is back to normal, and Obama has spent the past two weeks moving the ball down the field.
Hawes
@Steve: Yes, it’s very courageous to cut programs for other people whom you don’t know.
“You keep using tha’ word. I do not think it means wha’ you think it means.”
General Stuck
@Steve:
I don’t think MM is saying not to tie this to the GOP, and I know I certainly am not. That is different than engaging with the wingnuts with a point by point counterproposal, which I think he is saying.
That would be taking the bait, and lending credence to Ryan’s BS as something other than utterly absurd and toxic. Mock the fuck out of the GOP over this, and use it as a giant pol club to pound their evil asses all the way to election day.
eemom
This is a very good post.
Also too, “I would so love to be wrong about this” needs to be a rotating headline.
gypsy howell
@OzoneR:
Yes, and of the 6 people he put on the commission that HE insisted on forming (after Congress wouldn’t do it), 5 of them voted for the stinking mess. Only Andy Stern voted against it. Still think he won’t adopt their recommendations as his compromise plan? I wish I were so sure.
@Omnes Omnibus:
Can you name some examples? I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just can’t think of any off the top of my head.
Jay C
@NonyNony:
You’re quite right: it should. But will it?
Your analysis of Republican aims for State legislatures is also, IMO, quite correct: but AFAIC, it just makes it even MORE important that any corrective countermeasures from
their victimsthe citizenry be effective in the only way that really matters: tossing their asses out, and replacing them with people who will vote their policies down.This is a political war; and like “real” wars, the battles aren’t won by counting how many bullets you’ve fired, or by the casualties you took/spared: they’re won by determining who controls the ground when the smoke clears.
The anti-Prosser, anti-Walker efforts in WI have been amazing, and should be applauded (and supported with donations where applicable) – but, given the sort of opposition these efforts are facing, until seats (court or Lege) actually change hands, jubilation is premature; even if congratulations may be in order.
Jay C
@joe from Lowell:
Fixt.
Chris
@Steve:
They also believe that the
JewsMuslims control society, that immigrants (especially illegal ones) have access to special welfare programs, that being black is a political advantage, that only white people get profiled at airports, that white Christians are an underprivileged underclass, and that union workers are bloated with money while poor working people have to scrape by on $250,000 a year.The persecution complex of the entitled.
eemom
@loretta:
And THANK YOU for that.
In a sane world, you’d be the one explaining this shit on teevee.
In the immortal words of TBogg, we don’t live there.
joe from Lowell
@Jay C: How has Obama failed you today, Jay C?
Hawes
Oh, we should stop calling it “Ryan’s plan” and starting calling it the “GOP plan”.
No use making him a scapegoat for when things go peckers up. Drag the whole rotten cabal down with him.
gypsy howell
@Hawes:
Gotta disagree with your tactic on that one. I doubt most poeple in the US understand what “ideological” means. They probably think it means “they have ideas.”
No – flog the destruction of medicare and Social Security for all it’s worth . Scare the shit out of not only us oldsters, but younger people who will be literally wiping up the shit that comes with having their elderly decrepit parents move in with them to live out their ‘golden years.”
bemused
@OzoneR:
Oh, good grief.
I’ve been around since Ike and every prez candidate promises to deliver all kinds of shit. Long, long ago, I shed my rose tinted glasses. Before Obama won, I knew I was going to really unhappy at time with him and the Dem legislators who share equal blame/praise. It would have been no different if Hilary had become president.
What I knew for damn sure is that we had to have a Dem in the White House and as many Dems in office we could get or republicans would have made our lives even more miserable the last couple of years than they already have been. I feel sick even imagining McCain/Palin in the WH. That’s why I want to slap up people who says they won’t vote for Santa Obama because he hasn’t delivered everything on the Christmas list.
Obama had done a lot of good stuff and we want more but he’s a president with a Congress, not a dictator or an angel with a wand. Keeping the loonies at bay from turning our country into a cesspool is neverending but that’s how the crappy political process rolls.
You chose to create an Obama fantasy and crown him with delusions of grandeur.
General Stuck
@loretta:
Gracias/ Always nice to hear from people in the trenches on a particular issue. And I agree with your take.
Sentient Puddle
@spongeworthy:
If I were an elected official, I could put my political life on the line by legalizing rape and murder. Would that make me serious?
4jkb4ia
Ezra didn’t say, “Engage on Ryan’s bill”. Ezra said, “Have real ideas to win the future”. Part of Ezra’s point was that the professional chatterers, see Sully, are excited about Ryan’s bill because it is radical. If Obama’s budget had given them something innovative to be excited about then it would be a fairer fight. Obama knew at the time he was proposing his budget that Ryan would propose something along these lines because you had Ryan-Rivlin already out there. So his strategy was to be the adult and to say, “Government can do important things”. Paul Ryan is willing to give him that government can do important things, but he has a different idea of doing those important things well.
Mnemosyne
@gypsy howell:
So which part of the commission’s report did you hate more: the proposal to eliminate agricultural subsidies or the suggestion that we move to a single-payer healthcare system?
You do realize that Bowles and Simpson’s PowerPoint presentation was not the actual commission report, right? You can read the real report here.
But why bother with the facts when you can scream, “Catfood Commission! Catfood Commision!” amirite?
Mnemosyne
@spongeworthy:
It always amuses me that conservatives demand that we close the budget gap but we’re only allowed to cut the particular programs they don’t like. Raise tax rates back to the Clinton levels? SOSHULISM! Get out of Iraq and Afghanistan? WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA!
I think the sleaziest casino in Vegas stacks the deck less.
Percysowner
@spongeworthy:
Really try gong here and see about those figures. You can balance the budget without tax increases on the majority of the the population.
Paul W.
@gypsy howell:
Absolutely not, why would he take their unofficial recommendations when he already regularly turns down some of his cabinet’s official recommendations (aka, Afghanistan and Rahm’s downsizing ACA)?
mclaren
Since Obama’s HCR non-reform solved non of the problems that afflict America’s broken collapsing medical-industrial complex and only made the entire situation worse, you may want to rethink your enthusiastic support for Obama’s fiasco.
The HCR non-reform in Massachusetts is already falling apart and Massachusetts has had to start rationing health care. The state’s plan is collapsing and not only is it going broke fast, it has caused health insurance premiums in Massachusetts to jump 14% higher than in neighboring states.
This is the debacle that awaits Obamacare.
Obama pissed off his base and made fatal compromises because he wasn’t serious about reforming America’s broken medical-industrial complex, just as Obama pissed off his base and made fatal compromises when he decided not to close Guantanamo Bay, when he decided to order the assassination of American citizens without a trial, when he decided to order the kidnapping of American citizens without even charging them with a crime, and so on.
Physicist Peter Woit sums up Obama’s disastrous presidency:
Source: Oba
mclaren
Since Obama’s HCR non-reform solved non of the problems that afflict America’s broken collapsing medical-industrial complex and only made the entire situation worse, you may want to rethink your enthusiastic support for Obama’s fiasco.
The HCR non-reform in Massachusetts is already falling apart and Massachusetts has had to start rationing health care. The state’s plan is collapsing and not only is it going broke fast, it has caused health insurance premiums in Massachusetts to jump 14% higher than in neighboring states.
This is the debacle that awaits Obamacare.
Source: “Massachusetts Shows Federal Reform Headed For Trouble,” Kaiser Health News, 22 July 2010.
Obama pissed off his base and made fatal compromises because he wasn’t serious about reforming America’s broken medical-industrial complex, just as Obama pissed off his base and made fatal compromises when he decided not to close Guantanamo Bay, when he decided to order the assassination of American citizens without a trial, when he decided to order the kidnapping of American citizens without even charging them with a crime, and so on.
Physicist Peter Woit sums up Obama’s disastrous presidency:
Source: Obama Worse Than Bush, Not Even Wrong Blog, April 2011.
OzoneR
@4jkb4ia:
So we counter their radical with our radical? And then what? We just keep staring each other down.
The only reason their radical gets another seriousness is that there are more right wing radicals in this country than left wing radicals, and it’s pretty clear the media will present the left as even more unreasonable than they do now. Hell, you got LIBERALS endorsing Ryan’s budget. Who is going to defend a “radical” left budget? Bernie Sanders?
Sentient Puddle
@mclaren:
That line right there has me wondering if you’re another incarnation of Brick Oven Bill.
Amanda in the South Bay
Hey, Ezra is young and drinks with Yglesias and friends! How can he be wrong!
4jkb4ia
Of course Boehner and the Republicans are going to pass whatever they want to pass and they will want to pass it with a majority of their caucus, as we saw yesterday. But what Boehner and the Republicans pass is not going to become law absent a massive cave by Obama and the Senate. In the Pelosi example that mistermix gave, Pelosi understood that given a chance the media would make everything about the president and he would shoot himself in the foot. Similarly here Obama has the chance for the media to make it all about him if he was to make any proposals of his own. Obama also has the chance to drive the agenda in the Senate and excite people about some of the endangered Democrats in 2012.
CLEAN THE HOUSE. This is my new message after every comment posted here. It might even sink in.
Mnemosyne
@mclaren:
I see you’re still quoting that editorial written by the head of the Galen Institute as though it were an actual news story. Do you have some facts for us, or just more recycled Galen Institute bullshit?
4jkb4ia
@OzoneR:
Not “counter their radical with our radical”. Ezra’s only policy idea in that post was to replace part of the payroll tax with a carbon tax. Probably Republicans would never go for a carbon tax. But they are being offered there something they want and Obama is going beyond the status quo in doing it. Radical would mean saying, “This is everything we want, we are offering you nothing”. Another reason this isn’t like SS is that Bush was trying to define SS as a grand problem and there wasn’t one. The debt, at least long-term, education, where the future economy is coming from, global warming are grand problems. Obama grasps this. If he was refocusing the attention on some of the other problems Ryan doesn’t have the power to define the grand problems to himself.
4jkb4ia
And clean the house.
I have such respect for Ezra’s sagacity, I don’t even make a point to read him every day. Nor do I suspect he’s the last word on the things he does write about. But he’s informative and Paul Krugman respects him.
OzoneR
@4jkb4ia: That sounds like exactly what Obama is doing, it’s just no one has been paying attention to him because they’re too busy with PaulRyanapalozza.
cckids
@bemused:
Oh, good grief.
I’ve been around since Ike and every prez candidate promises to deliver all kinds of shit. Long, long ago, I shed my rose tinted glasses.
4jkb4ia
@OzoneR:
Well, here’s Dave Roberts at Grist:
That was on the basis of what was given to the press drawing on what was in the speech, when he had a chance to get their attention. Everything in that list is completely un-radical. Candidate Obama said, “Washington is the place where good ideas go to die,” and I believe I cheered. President Obama can say, “We have plenty of good ideas that are even accepted by the private sector, and we can encourage them. They don’t have to come here to die.” President Obama can also say, “Our Democratic Senators have good ideas and I will encourage them.” “What can pass” has been Obama’s M.O. since I have known him, but Boehner and the House Republicans can’t be trusted to have a steady target of what can pass. I am afraid that Team Obama or enough Senate Dems think they blew their wad on health care and Obama cannot lead them into another historic accomplishment anymore.
kay
@mclaren:
Mclaren, you’re once again spreading Right wing misinformation on health care.
While I’m thrilled you’ve adopted the Kaiser site for health care analysis (you’ll recall you once called me a lying Obot for relying on the same site, because you did not know there was a health care company called Kaiser and a foundation called Kaiser) you still have to read the information found there.
The person you are relying on for unbiased information on the PPACA and Massachusetts plan is a Right wing hack.
Had you read the opinion piece you posted, you would have noticed this:
The Galen Institute is like CATO or Heritage, mclaren.
There’s a difference between opinion and fact. You should stop searching the internet for opinion that goes your way, and posting it as fact.
kay
@mclaren:
Why are you relying on industry-funded right wing think tanks while babbling about Obama pissing off ‘the base”?
Lawyers use online research services.
I can always tell a lazy hack because he or she will cut and paste a paragraph from the first page of results without reading the whole opinion. They then don’t know when the actual holding goes against the position they’re trying to advance, which it often does.
This is like that.
Ronc99
mistermix wrote: “One fundamental characteristic of serious people is that they pay attention to what’s important. Ryan’s bill isn’t, no matter how many hand jobs Morning Joe gives him under the desk.”
Tour. De. Force.
Dismiss Paul Ryan as fascist noise. IF he were one of the “serious” people, he wouldn’t act like such a clown!
Mnemosyne
@kay:
But that’s unpossible if they’re saying what mclaren wants to hear! Clearly the head of a group that wants to end government involvement in healthcare can make a completely unbiased analysis of how government healthcare is working is Massachusetts.
mclaren
@Sentient Puddle:
Any facts to go with that claim? You offer no arguments and no evidence to show that Obama’s HCR non-reform controls costs. You can’t, because Obama’s HCR non-reform does nothing to control costs — in fact, it escalates medical costs by offering a giant captive market for insurers, hospitals, doctors, imaging labs, and medical devicemakers.
mclaren
@kay:
Kay and Mnemosyne, thank you for telling these ignorant and foolishly obvious lies. You have both in effect branded yourselves with a giant IGNORE ME sign on your foreheads, indicating that you cannot be taken seriously on the subject of health care reform.
Let’s talk about facts. Whenever someone cites a fact you don’t want to hear, you scream “It’s right wing propaganda!”
Here are the facts about the cost of health insurance premiums in Massachusetts:
Massachusetts: Average Family Premium per Enrolled Employee For Employer-Based Health Insurance, 2009
$14.723
This compares to a cost of $13.027 nationally — a 12% increase. Here’s the link to statehealthfacts.org, a link which was contained in the original article which Kay and Mnemosyne lied had “no facts” and “was just an op-ed.”
As you’d expect, the evidence shows that the Massachusetts plan has increased the cost of health insurance in that state, and for the obvious reasons: because the Massachusetts plan, like Obama’s HCR non-reform that’s basde on the Massachetts plan, it creates a gigantic captive market, forcing people to buy insurance they can’t afford with no cost controls in the underlying expense of health care.
As compulsive pathological liars, Kay and Mnemosyne will of course deny these documented facts. Standard stuff. So let’s move on to “Health Care Reform Is Likely to Widen Federal Budget Deficits, Not Reduce Them,” Health Affairs, June 2010.
This article cites an analysis by former CBO analysts showing that health care reform will increase costs, not reduce them. Naturally, Kay and Mnemosyne will now scream the lie that the congressional budget office is a “right-wing think tank spewing out far-right propaganda.” The usual lies, told with the usual vitriol, and as usual, obviously and foolishly disproven by the objective facts.
So let’s move on to the New England Journal of Medicine:
“Massachusetts Health Care Reform — Near-Universal Coverage at What Cost?” Joel S. Weissman, Ph.D., and JudyAnn Bigby, M.D., N Engl J Med 2009; 361:2012-2015
Remember: the New England Journal of Medicine is a crackpot fringe far-right think tank operated by shady kooks who spit out dishonest Republican propaganda.
Riiiiiight.
Notice the standard pattern here: like global warming deniers, Kay and Mnemosyne ridicule any facts they don’t like. Like evolution deniers, Kay and Mnemosyne smear anyone who cites those facts and leers jeeringly “Do you have any facts for us?” once they’ve dismissed all the documented facts. And like flat earther, Kay and Mnemosyne throw out any sources of evidence that prove inconvenient, no matter how reputable and no matter no many sources of evidence converge.
Source: Relman, Arnold, “Health Care: The Disquieting Truth,” New York Times Book Review, 30 September 2010.
Remember: anyone who uses logic and provides evidence Kay and Mnemosyne don’t want to hear is a far-right fringe lunatic propagandist. So the New York Times Review of Books and Dr. Arnold Relman must be thrown out as well as the books he reviews, which come to the same conclusion. As well, the comprehensively confirmed research of John D. Wennberg must be ridiculed and smeared, marginalized and discredited.
Wennberg’s research shows that costs for health care are exploding out of control because of an excess supply of high-priced medical specialists in high-service (mostly urban) areas…a problem that Obama’s HCR non-reform will make worse rather than better because it creates a huge captive market, greatly increasing the incentive for doctors to ramp up their costs by opening boutqiue specialty practices because of all the new helpless victims forced to buy insurance they can’t afford with no cost controls on the underlying service costs.
Let’s pause now to pre-emptively debunk Kay and Mnemosyne’s next lie: namely, that Obama’s HCR non-reform does control costs because it limits the profits insurers can make.
This is an obvious lie and it’s also a stupid lie, because the evidence overwhelmingly shows that the main driver of costs in health care isn’t the insurers, it’s the doctors and hospitals and imaging labs and medical devicemakers.
A CAT scan in France costs $150, while the exact same CAT scan with the exact same machine in America costs $850. You can’t explain that insane cost difference by “waste due to overhead in the insurance industry.” The cost difference is due to cartels and greed and corruption by doctors who sign lock-in sweetheart contracts with hospitals, which in turn sign non-disclosure agreements to prevent rival service providers from determining their true costs and bidding competitively, and from outright bribery by medical devicemakers and by big pharma to induce doctors and hospitals to use their outrageously overpriced products.
“U.S. government examining doctor kickbacks for medical devices” By Barnaby J. Feder March 24, 2008
NEW YORK — The U.S. government is turning the spotlight on doctors in a long-running investigation into suspected kickback payments to hip and knee surgeons made by the orthopedic device industry.
Remember: the New York Times reports these facts that Kay and Mnemosyne don’t want to hear, so the New York Times must be ridiculed and dismissed as a “right-wing op-ed.”
“Hot Fraud and Abuse Issues for Medical Device Companies,”
Health Provider Alert, May 31 2007.
Federal enforcement authorities are focusing on key fraud and abuse issues in the medical device industry — safety-related reporting and fraud risks, kickbacks, device alteration and off-label marketing.
Since we’re now citing federal prosecution court cases, remember: the federal courts and prosecutors who have dragged all these medical devicemakers into court for fraud and kickbacks are (you guessed it) far-right propagandists. Since the evidence for these massive bribery conspiracies has been presented in court, Kay and Mnemosyne will now of course dismiss the evidence as “a far-right op ed” and taunt sneeringly, “Have you got any actual facts?”
Standard stuff.
Keep it up, Kay and Mnemosyne. You have pretty much spray-painted a stencil on your foreheads with the words IGNORE US BECAUSE WE TELL STUPID LIES.
As Dr. Relman points out:
op. cit.
Of course Kay and Mnemosyne will loudly deny and ridicule this statement of documented facts, as well as denying and ridiculing all the many sources which confirm these facts —
because, after all, a fact isn’t a fact if Kay and Mnemosyne don’t like it.
The facts show that Massachusetts health insurance premiums cost 14% more than health insurance premiums nationally: therefore that’s not a fact.
The facts show that Masschusetts is now being forced to cut health care service: therefore that’s not a fact.
The facts show that small businesses and individuals are increasingly unable to pay for unaffordable private health insurance in Massachusetts (and nationally) because of the skyrocketing never-ending always-increasing underlying cost of health care in America: therefore that’s not a fact either.
All the court cases in which federal prosecutors have indicted medical devicemakers for bribery don’t exist. All the data in Wennberg’s study doesn’t exist. All the reports in the New York Times and elsewhere of doctors refusing to add new medicare patients, and of states slashing medicare to cope with runaway medicaid costs, don’t exist.
Mountains of newspaper stories, stack after stack of research studies, all the books, all the articles showing that “The cost crisis now facing the US health care system urgently calls for more effective control than the new legislation provides” (Relman, op. cit.)…none of them exist. Because Kay and Mnemosyne don’t like these facts.
Welcome to the Bizarro World of Kay and Mnemosyne’s delusional Obot paradise: Barack Obama makes some fine-sounding speeches, therefore the crisis in America health care has been solved!
The rest of us inhabit a different world, called “the real world.” Out here in the real world, making pretty speeches doesn’t actually solve problems. Out here in the real world:
“Mass. healthcare reform is failing us,” By Susanne L. King
Boston Globe, March 2, 2009.
Since Suzanne L. King is a doctor who practices and a member of PNHP, Physicians for a National Health Program, and since she advocates junking Obama’s HCR non-reform and switching a medicare-for-everyone proposal, naturally Suzanne L. King is (wait for it…) a far-right hack vomiting out extremist propaganda.
The documented fact that spending on the Massaschusetts state health care plan has doubled from 630 million to more than 1.3 billion and is unsustainable is not a fact, since Kay and Mnemosyne don’t like it.
The documented fact that the high-deductible private for-profit insurance plans people are forced to buy because the low-deductible plans are too expensive in Massachusetts have sky-high out-of-pocket costs that prevent people from actually using their insurance when they get sick in Massaschusetts is not a fact, since Kay and Mnemosyne don’t like it.
The documented fact that Massachusetts stil hass more than 200,000 unisured people is not a fact, since Kay and Mnemosyne don’t like it.
The documented fact that at Cambridge Health Alliance, doctors and nurses have cared for patients who, unable to afford the new copayments, were forced to interrupt care for HIV and even cancers that could be treated with chemotherapy is not a fact, since Kay and Mnemosyne don’t like it.
Fact after fact after facts, all waved away, denied, ridiculed, sneered at.
And now Kay and Mnemosyne, showered a mountain of facts with acid contempt and sneering ridicule, will interject to taunt: “Do you have any actual facts?”
We now return you to the regularly-scheduled lies by Kay and Mnemosyne, along with the usual side helping of denial of observed reality.
mclaren
Kay and Mnemosyne, thank you for telling these ignorant and foolishly obvious lies. You have both in effect branded yourselves with a giant IGNORE ME sign on your foreheads, indicating that you cannot be taken seriously on the subject of health care reform.
Let’s talk about facts. Whenever someone cites a fact you don’t want to hear, you scream “It’s right wing propaganda!”
Here are the facts about the cost of health insurance premiums in Massachusetts:
Massachusetts: Average Family Premium per Enrolled Employee For Employer-Based Health Insurance, 2009
$14.723
This compares to a cost of $13.027 nationally — a 12% increase. Here’s the
link to statehealthfacts.org, a link which was contained in the original article which Kay and Mnemosyne lied had “no facts” and “was just an op-ed.”
As you’d expect, the evidence shows that the Massachusetts plan has increased the cost of health insurance in that state, and for the obvious reasons: because the Massachusetts plan, like Obama’s HCR non-reform that’s basde on the Massachetts plan, it creates a gigantic
captive market, forcing people to buy insurance they can’t afford with no cost controls in the underlying expense of health care.
As compulsive pathological liars, Kay and Mnemosyne will of course deny these documented facts. Standard stuff. So let’s move on to “Health Care Reform Is Likely to Widen Federal Budget Deficits, Not Reduce Them,” Health Affairs, June 2010.
This article cites an analysis by former CBO analysts showing that health care reform will increase costs, not reduce them. Naturally, Kay and Mnemosyne will now scream the lie that the congressional budget office is a “right-wing think tank spewing out far-right propaganda.” The usual lies, told with the usual vitriol, and as usual, obviously and foolishly disproven by the objective facts. The CBO is a non-partisan organization, and the above analysis doesn’t have any particular axe to grind. It’s merely based on the reasonable conclusion that without cost controls, medical costs will continue to rise (and since Obama’s HCR plan does nothing to address the underlying costs of health care, that’s a fair conclusion).
So let’s move on to the New England Journal of Medicine:
“Massachusetts Health Care Reform — Near-Universal Coverage at What Cost?” Joel S. Weissman, Ph.D., and JudyAnn Bigby, M.D., N Engl J Med 2009; 361:2012-2015
Remember: the New England Journal of Medicine is a crackpot fringe far-right think tank operated by shady kooks who spit out dishonest Republican propaganda.
Riiiiiight.
Notice the standard pattern here: like global warming deniers, Kay and Mnemosyne ridicule any facts they don’t like. Like evolution deniers, Kay and Mnemosyne smear anyone who cites those facts and leer jeeringly “Do you have any facts for us?” once they’ve dismissed all
the evidence they don’t want to hear. And like flat earther, Kay and Mnemosyne throw out any sources of evidence that prove inconvenient, no matter how
reputable and no matter no many sources of evidence converge.
Source: Relman, Arnold, “Health Care: The Disquieting Truth,” New York Times Book Review, 30 September 2010.
Remember: anyone who uses logic and provides evidence Kay and Mnemosyne don’t want to hear is a far-right fringe lunatic propagandist. So the New York Times Review of Books and Dr. Arnold Relman must be thrown out as well as the books he reviews, which come to the same conclusion. As well, the comprehensively confirmed research of John D. Wennberg must be ridiculed and smeared, marginalized and discredited.
Wennberg’s research shows that costs for health care are exploding out of control because of an excess supply of high-priced medical specialists in high-service (mostly urban) areas…a problem that Obama’s HCR non-reform will make worse rather than better because it creates a huge captive market for for-profit health care, greatly increasing the incentive for doctors to ramp up their profits by opening boutqiue specialty practices
because of all the new helpless victims forced to buy insurance they can’t afford with no cost controls on the underlying service costs.
Let’s pause now to pre-emptively debunk Kay and Mnemosyne’s next lie: namely, that Obama’s HCR non-reform does control costs because it limits the profits insurers can make.
This is an obvious lie and it’s also Kay and Mnemosyne’s most stupid lie, because the evidence overwhelmingly shows that the main driver of costs in health care isn’t the insurers, it’s the doctors and hospitals and imaging
labs and medical devicemakers.
A CAT scan in France costs $150, while the exact same CAT scan with the exact same machine in America costs $850. You can’t explain that insane cost difference by “waste due to overhead in the insurance industry.” Overhead costs added by insurers has been estimated at up to 30%, but $850 isn’t 130% of $150, it’s 550% of $150. The cost difference is due to cartels and greed and corruption by doctors who sign lock-in sweetheart contracts with hospitals, which in turn sign non-disclosure agreements to prevent rival service providers from determining their true costs and bidding
competitively, and from outright bribery by medical devicemakers and by big pharma to induce doctors and hospitals to use their outrageously overpriced products.
“U.S. government examining doctor kickbacks for medical devices” By Barnaby J. Feder March 24, 2008
NEW YORK — The U.S. government is turning the spotlight on doctors in a long-running investigation into suspected kickback payments to hip and knee surgeons made by the orthopedic device industry.
Remember: the New York Times reports these facts that Kay and Mnemosyne don’t want to hear, so the New York Times must be ridiculed and dismissed as a “right-wing op-ed.”
“Hot Fraud and Abuse Issues for Medical Device Companies,”
Health Provider Alert, May 31 2007.
Federal enforcement authorities are focusing on key fraud and abuse issues in the medical device industry — safety-related reporting and fraud risks, kickbacks, device alteration and off-label marketing.
Since we’re now citing federal prosecution court cases, remember: the federal courts and prosecutors who have dragged all these medical devicemakers and doctors and hospitals into court for fraud and kickbacks are (you guessed it) far-right propagandists. Since the evidence for these massive bribery conspiracies is being presented in court, Kay and Mnemosyne will now of course dismiss the evidence as “a far-right op ed” and taunt sneeringly, “Have you got any actual facts?”
Standard stuff.
Keep it up, Kay and Mnemosyne. You have pretty much spray-painted a stencil on your foreheads with the words IGNORE US BECAUSE WE TELL STUPID LIES.
As Dr. Relman points out:
Relman, Arnold, op. cit.
Of course Kay and Mnemosyne will loudly deny and ridicule this statement of documented fact, as well as denying and ridiculing all the many sources which confirm these facts —
because, after all, a fact isn’t a fact if Kay and Mnemosyne don’t like it.
The facts show that Massachusetts health insurance premiums cost 14% more than health insurance premiums nationally: therefore that’s not a fact.
The facts show that Masschusetts is now being forced to cut health care services: therefore that’s not a fact.
The facts show that small businesses and individuals are increasingly unable to pay for unaffordable private health insurance in Massachusetts (and nationally) because of the skyrocketing never-ending always-increasing underlying cost of health care in America: therefore that’s not a fact either.
All the court cases in which federal prosecutors have indicted medical devicemakers for bribery don’t exist. All the data in Wennberg’s study doesn’t exist. All the reports in the New York Times and elsewhere of doctors refusing to add new medicare patients, and of states slashing
medicare to cope with runaway medicaid costs, don’t exist.
Mountains of newspaper stories, stack after stack of research studies, all the books, all the articles showing that “The cost crisis now facing the US health care system urgently calls for more effective control than the new legislation provides” (Relman, op. cit.)…none of them exist. Because Kay and Mnemosyne don’t like these
facts.
Welcome to the Bizarro World of Kay and Mnemosyne’s delusional Obot paradise: Barack Obama makes some fine-sounding speeches, therefore the crisis in America health care has been solved!
The rest of us inhabit a different world, called “the real world.” Out here in the real world, making pretty speeches doesn’t actually solve problems. Out here in the real world:
“Mass. healthcare reform is failing us,” By Susanne L. King
Boston Globe, March 2, 2009.
Since Suzanne L. King is a doctor who practices in Massachusetts and a member of PNHP (Physicians for a National Health Program) and since she advocates
junking Obama’s HCR non-reform and switching a medicare-for-everyone proposal, naturally Suzanne L. King is (wait for it…) a far-right hack vomiting out extremist propaganda.
The documented fact that spending on the Massaschusetts state health care plan has doubled from 630 million to more than 1.3 billion and is unsustainable is not a fact, since Kay and Mnemosyne don’t like it.
The documented fact that the high-deductible private for-profit insurance plans people are forced to buy because the low-deductible plans are too expensive in Massachusetts have sky-high out-of-pocket costs that prevent people from actually using their insurance when they get sick in Massaschusetts is not a fact, since Kay and Mnemosyne
don’t like it.
The documented fact that Massachusetts stil has more than 200,000 unisured people is not a fact, since Kay and Mnemosyne don’t like it.
The documented fact that at Cambridge Health Alliance, doctors and nurses have cared for patients who, unable to afford the new copayments, were forced to interrupt care for HIV and even cancers that could be treated with chemotherapy is not a fact, since Kay and
Mnemosyne don’t like it.
Fact after fact after fact, all waved away, denied, ridiculed, sneered at.
And now Kay and Mnemosyne, showered a mountain of facts with acid contempt and sneering ridicule, will interject to taunt: “Do you have any actual facts?”
We now return you to the regularly-scheduled lies by Kay and
Mnemosyne, along with the usual side helping of denial of observed reality.
mclaren
Since my comprehensive reponse to kay and mnemosyne’s lies has been tied up in moderation, as we expect, the lies will continue.
Remember: I have no facts. The dozens of facts and citations and publications and sources I’ve cited cannot be seen and do not exist because (naturally) my response is in moderation.
Standard stuff.
Mnemosyne
I see mclaren’s in a manic phase again. Better batten down the hatches, boys, it’s gonna be a few days of 2,000 words comments posted one after the other before she swings back.
And I love that she’s still posting op-eds as factual articles. Hint to you, mclaren: just because an op-ed contains facts, that doesn’t mean that the op-ed writer’s conclusion is correct. Putting numbers in a column doesn’t mean that the writer has interpreted them correctly.